Boyds Forest Dragon Information Thread

Great thread Scott.
The Boyds army will be growing in strength!!
This site needs more good threads like this!

Here's a few more photo's

Thanks for the silkworm info Scott, will definately give it a go.Those pics are great Mr.Boyd- I looove the first one! I put a link of two of my rascals having a munch on woodies for any one interested, nothing special but it still amuses me lol.They're still a little camera shy but it didn't stop them too much from munching : p

[video=youtube;4NKFrDq8fyI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKFrDq8fyI[/video]

Very informative thread!

Just have a few questions of my own as I intend on expanding my collection with boyds over the next few months..

>Would having Boyds in a display cabinet that is positioned in a high traffic area (My lounge room or Living room) have any major influence on their behaviour? Would high external activity prompt sulking?

>Is increasing spraying frequency/duration an effective solution to combating Summer temperature increases.

>Are there any reliable misting systems on the Australian market that any one can recommend?

Ed

Hi Ed,

I've have my Boyds on display in a traffic area of the house with no troubles. You'll find some are shy and others don't mind, they will just carry on as if your not there. Depends on the location and how long you have had your Boyds already (if you raised them). Can't hurt to try it out for a while if your enclosure is movable.

With regards to the spraying/misting during summer, this is good to simulate natural rain over the summer period & keep up the humidity, but it will not keep the enclosure cool unless the water is very cold. I place used to place ice cubes in the water bowl in the morning if its a hot day, it also depends on your heating/lighting/enclosure type. If all the lighting is in a timber enclosure, on extremely hot days you may want to leave them off and just use a low energy room light on, to minimise heat created in the enclosure.

Misting systems - I use a Superrain misting system made by luck reptile, they are available in Australia and work great, you just need to get a digital timer & a larger storage container for the water reservoir. I use a 30L tub & plan to just put ice in on hot days. I also keep my Boyds in glass enclosures with no lighting/heating inside the enclosure, this helps in summer.

Cheers for the response.

I was just asking about sulking as I don't want to tiptoe around my lounge room to avoid upsetting the Boyds.

I live in Cairns so heating won't be necessary and I should only need to supply a UV light that will be mounted externally above the enclosure. I am looking to setup a large display about 1800L x 900W x 1800H with a glass/aluminium frame and aluminium mesh for ventilation.

I ask about cooling during summer because my inside temps fluctuate from 25-32 degrees. The only way I could prevent exsposure to temps from 29-32 during the middle of the day is by running aircon.

Will checkout Superrain.

> Does the flush through system minimise waste odours?

Ed

Great thread guys!!! Fantastic enclosures. Are there any tips on reducing stress on boydii during freight? thanks

From my experience sulking is usually a sign that the enclosure is not setup right or you have a dominance issue. In such a large enclosure this should not be a problem, if it is properly furnished.
I've only had one Angle-headed dragon sulk in the past, and with a few small changes it sprung to life.

You'll have to ask Scott about the flush through system, I prefer to clean the enclosure everyday.

Dozerman - Are you talking about transporting in your car or with a freight company? The best way with freighting is to place them in a breath able snake bag with moist spag moss in a strong dark container with good ventialtion.

This is a great thread! Thanks to all that contributed.

Hey guys since we have big viv's for the boyds and as it's so damp etc would it be possible to house frogs in the same viv?
I don't think they would try eating them if they were a decent size, do you think it could work?

Never tried but it would start to get messy in there really fast...

Mr.Boyd said:

Never tried but it would start to get messy in there really fast...

Click to expand...

I've never kept frogs before so unsure what you mean - Do you think the boyds would try and nibble them or frogs are grots?

this is the first time I've noticed this thread.. fantastic effort scott I dont keep boyds but found it extremely interesting and informative.. one of the best threads I've seen on here hands down. thanks for sharing.. this thread is now a sticky. cheers

Hi all,

Sorry for the LOOONG delay in posting, I have had an unfortunate accident that required surgery to my right arm and as a result I cannot type and the reason I have not contributed to the thread. My apologies to all the followers that have asked questions and I have not responded, the above is the reason, as well as moving house amongst the kaos!~
I should be OK to continue on where we left off next week.
Thanks for the PM's I will endeavor to answer them all but may take time because of the injury.
Cheers guys, looking forward to kicking off the thread again and thanks to Mr Boyd and the other contributors, GREAT STUFF!!!

Didnt realise you guys in QLD/NSW had to wait 2 years for class 2 reptiles? in VIC i had to get my licenses in my mums name when i was 11 and got my first bearded dragon, they wouldnt let me "transfer" so i had to open up my own license a few months ago (shoulda prob done it at 18 as i woulda got it cheaper concession but i was lazy) and just converted from the book in her name to my book. Got my advance license no issues glad we dont have to wait 2 years or that might of been arkward even though my mum obviously had an advance license in her name.

Mate, Qld doesnt have a class 2 permit. You either have a licence or you dont as Boyd's are covered by the normal wildlife licence in Qld which you can obtain straight away, no 2 year wait. Not sure where your getting your info bud, but its wrong.

bloodyeddy said:

Mate, Qld doesnt have a class 2 permit. You either have a licence or you dont as Boyd's are covered by the normal wildlife licence in Qld which you can obtain straight away, no 2 year wait. Not sure where your getting your info bud, but its wrong.

Click to expand...

Didnt think QLD had to either but someone said they do a few pages back.

The below info is from my own personal experience with keeping Boyds and may differ from some other keepers experiences!
Thats why this thread was started, purely to get as many keepers individual experiences within the one thread to be an informative GUIDE to keeping Boyds.
Through experience, reptile husbandry is not a "text book science", if it was, life would be too easy and boring in my opinion!
You gain that knowledge and experience, from doing it yourself and learning from mistakes, BUT hopefully not at the animals expense!! IF you keep the "basic correct parameters" for the animal you keep, that's at least keeping them comfortable, the aesthetics of the enclosure, keeping animals in a colony and breeding all come later..
OK lets move on..
Keeping a Colony:
I have kept up to 5 adult animals in my large enclosure with success. I have kept more but had issues, mainly with the males and their dominance over other submissive males. In the wild from what I have been told by herpers that live in those areas and from the limited studies done on Boyds that I have read, is that male Boyds have a pretty large territory in relation to their physical size, so gauging from that, you wont have a harmonious colony IF they are stuck in a small captive enclosure, males will need room to move around and get out of each others way. I have found that females don't exibit the same dominance over each other, although I have not kept a colony of strictly adult females together with no male....maybe they do this IF a male is not the dominant animal and it is an all female colony, any input on this would be great?
What I have found which I thought was interesting is, there seems to be a dominant dragon from early on in their lives IF housed together. I have had baby Boyds all kept in the one tank and after a couple of months one seems to always take charge and eat first and show a domineering presence. I have found this to be a pattern with little Boyds in different clutches and proved to be the case over again.
As they get older, the dominance will intensify and after time when you can identify the sex of the animals 100%, in my experience this behavior has always been attributed to male Boyds only. Head bobbing and lunges at another animal, are all dominant behaviour, although head bobbing when about to hump is a sign of loving as well. more on that later....
So , what do we learn from that? .....
We should only keep 1 male to a few females in the one enclosure, so this dominance behaviour doesn't lead to stressed animals in the captive environment.
If they were in the wild, I assume the subservient male would get out of the dominant males territory and try and get his own territory started and defend that..but in a communal colony, he cant do that there's no way of escape. Its not only stressful for the submissive male, but imagine being the dominant male and having to prove yourself ALL the time? That would suck, he's got plenty of loving for the ladies to indulge in, NOT wasting his energy on chasing another male out of his territory all the time without success!

So in my opinion, why stress your animals out by putting them into this environment to begin with? Admittedly, its hard to tell the sex of boyds when young, but observe and watch their behaviour and you will see the difference as they get older, UNTIL you actually see that the males have a set of gonads that you can see. More on sexing Boyds later.
I found that 1 male with up to up to 4 females was a great mix... I did not have any more animals as it would have been cruel to house more and this gave them plenty of room to find their own part of the enclosure to get away if needed. They all lived great together with no real dramas and displayed the closest to natural behaviour and bred well, so to me that was a successful colony.
Remember, the BEST result to keeping ANY captive animal, is to supply them with the "closest" one can get to their native environment, which is very important with colony setups.
Looking forward to hearing others opinions and experiences.
Sexing Boyds next.....

Sexing Boydii
Well there has been a heap of secrecy around the sexing of Boyds and that it is impossible to tell until maturity....I didn't have too much trouble at all, although when they are young it is almost impossible to see the difference except IMO, only by behaviour and the way that young males interact with each other. As they get older around 8-9months you can notice the 2 bulges of the hemipenes on the tail side of their vent. There are ways to pop the hemipenes, but I wouldn't recommend that and wont even say how its done, as i don't do it but have seen it done and in the hands of someone that hasn't done it before, you could do your dragon harm.
Another way to tell the difference between the sexes besides the obvious hemipenes, is the males have a boof head, much bigger and stockier than the females head, again as they reach up to that yearling mark you can tell the difference, this and their behaviour patterns in a group enclosure are signs to determine sex. If you only have 1 animal, it would obviously be hard to tell from their interaction with other animals, so it this instance, you need to observe the vent area and wait till they are around that 8-12 month age. If you feed your dragons well, they grow quicker and you can tell even earlier.
Attached pic is of a young male, where the hemipenes are starting to become visible.

Riseman said:

Cheers for the response.

I was just asking about sulking as I don't want to tiptoe around my lounge room to avoid upsetting the Boyds.

I live in Cairns so heating won't be necessary and I should only need to supply a UV light that will be mounted externally above the enclosure. I am looking to setup a large display about 1800L x 900W x 1800H with a glass/aluminium frame and aluminium mesh for ventilation.

I ask about cooling during summer because my inside temps fluctuate from 25-32 degrees. The only way I could prevent exsposure to temps from 29-32 during the middle of the day is by running aircon.

Will checkout Superrain.

> Does the flush through system minimise waste odours?

Ed

Click to expand...

Hi Ed,

The flush through system is not designed to eliminate waste odours really, although it does to a certain extent i guess, as any poo that's on the substrate breaks down and is flushed through and as a result, doesn't smell, so it does do that.
The main reason for this system is you can plant live plants and because it is watered regularly, it is moist and it keeps up the humidity. In Cairns, I don't think you'd have a problem with that, like we do in the Southern States, but IMO, this is getting the enclosure as close to their natural habitat, so it has to be good for their welfare, don't you think?
My idea of keeping animals is trying to mimic their habitat as close as we can get artificially, this way you get to see all the natural behaviours of the animal IF they are comfortable in their artificial home.

Funkstaa said:

Hey guys since we have big viv's for the boyds and as it's so damp etc would it be possible to house frogs in the same viv?
I don't think they would try eating them if they were a decent size, do you think it could work?

Click to expand...

Hi Funkstaa,

Frogs need a special viv as well as Boyds, but I would not suggest putting them in the same enclosure, i'm not sure that you see Boyds in the wild sitting next to a frog, so taking this into consideration, they both must have different specific habitats they live in. Needless to say, their habitats do overlap i'm sure, but definitely not in a small enclosure. To clarify, its not "so damp" that its wet, its moist and therefore humid, there is a difference.

Sexing Boydii
Well there has been a heap of secrecy around the sexing of Boyds and that it is impossible to tell until maturity....I didn't have too much trouble at all, although when they are young it is almost impossible to see the difference except IMO, only by behaviour and the way that young males interact with each other. As they get older around 8-9months you can notice the 2 bulges of the hemipenes on the tail side of their vent. There are ways to pop the hemipenes, but I wouldn't recommend that and wont even say how its done, as i don't do it but have seen it done and in the hands of someone that hasn't done it before, you could do your dragon harm.
Another way to tell the difference between the sexes besides the obvious hemipenes, is the males have a boof head, much bigger and stockier than the females head, again as they reach up to that yearling mark you can tell the difference, this and their behaviour patterns in a group enclosure are signs to determine sex. If you only have 1 animal, it would obviously be hard to tell from their interaction with other animals, so it this instance, you need to observe the vent area and wait till they are around that 8-12 month age. If you feed your dragons well, they grow quicker and you can tell even earlier.
Attached pic is of a young male, where the hemipenes are starting to become visible.

Riseman said:

Cheers for the response.

I was just asking about sulking as I don't want to tiptoe around my lounge room to avoid upsetting the Boyds.

I live in Cairns so heating won't be necessary and I should only need to supply a UV light that will be mounted externally above the enclosure. I am looking to setup a large display about 1800L x 900W x 1800H with a glass/aluminium frame and aluminium mesh for ventilation.

I ask about cooling during summer because my inside temps fluctuate from 25-32 degrees. The only way I could prevent exsposure to temps from 29-32 during the middle of the day is by running aircon.

Will checkout Superrain.

> Does the flush through system minimise waste odours?

Ed

Click to expand...

Hi Ed,

The flush through system is not designed to eliminate waste odours really, although it does to a certain extent i guess, as any poo that's on the substrate breaks down and is flushed through and as a result, doesn't smell, so it does do that.
The main reason for this system is you can plant live plants and because it is watered regularly, it is moist and it keeps up the humidity. In Cairns, I don't think you'd have a problem with that, like we do in the Southern States, but IMO, this is getting the enclosure as close to their natural habitat, so it has to be good for their welfare, don't you think?
My idea of keeping animals is trying to mimic their habitat as close as we can get artificially, this way you get to see all the natural behaviours of the animal IF they are comfortable in their artificial home.

Funkstaa said:

Hey guys since we have big viv's for the boyds and as it's so damp etc would it be possible to house frogs in the same viv?
I don't think they would try eating them if they were a decent size, do you think it could work?

Click to expand...

Hi Funkstaa,

Frogs need a special viv as well as Boyds, but I would not suggest putting them in the same enclosure, i'm not sure that you see Boyds in the wild sitting next to a frog, so taking this into consideration, they both must have different specific habitats they live in. Needless to say, their habitats do overlap i'm sure, but definitely not in a small enclosure. To clarify, its not "so damp" that its wet, its moist and therefore humid, there is a difference.

Breeding Boyds
Breeding Boyds, like most mature animals is pretty easy, once the sex is determined and you are sure you have a Male and a Female. At around 18+ months the male will start to head bob to the female and then make his move.
He is not the romantic type and bites the crest of the female, pins her down, aligns his vent with hers and inserts his hemipenes. A few seconds later its done!
Attached are some pics of the male in action as I believe these are pretty rare pics and I have never seen any pics of copulating Boyds before, but I have observed my animals for many hours and have been lucky to see this mating ritual on a few occasions which is fascinating, seeing the courtship and then the males attack. I have been able to tell when a male is going for some action by watching this different head bobs that they do, its faster than the one they do to show their dominance, or just are communicating with another Boyd.
If you witness a copulation, its pretty certain that you know your female will be gravid. IF you don't, how do you tell?
Females even when gravid aren't really that fat, they are a slim dragon to begin with and because they only lay between 2 and 6 eggs that are pretty small, they don't show excessive signs of being gravid. What I do notice though in females, is they go off their food when gravid and taking that into consideration plus looking at their abdomen, you can tell, or suspect that they may be gravid. Mind you I have missed this on some animals and they lay eggs, so it is sometimes difficult to tell and not an exact science as I have mentioned previously.

At around 4-5 weeks after a successful copulation, the female will start to hang around the bottom of the enclosure looking for a suitable nest site. I have seen gravid girls dig a few test holes but NOT lay, but interestingly, in the wild I have been told, that Boyds lay their eggs at the base of a tree, which seems logical and the best spot I agree, so the new bubs can scurry up the tree to avoid ground predators.
In my big enclosure I always place a patch of sphagnum moss approx 20x20cm under one of the trees/upright perches because of the above advice and it seems to work most times. 2 of my females have always laid in that moist sphagnum moss spot. Contrary to this I have found eggs in other spots of the enclosure so again it does change and is up to the female where she feels comfortable to lay.
I have UV lights set up on timers and have observed, which also seems an evolutionary trait, that the female lay just after dark...the dark giving them some cover to avoid predators while they are laying their eggs and are very vulnerable.
I have also witnessed this on a few occasions, which is a magic experience seeing them dig a hole lay their eggs and try and disguise the lay site as though nothing has happened.. Pics attached.
The trick now is to get the eggs out of the enclosure without mum seeing you. The female will be defensive for the first few hours and bite you if you try and dig her eggs out, but after a while she tends to forget or just goes about her life once again and now is the time to remove the eggs ready to pop in the incubator.
I have done an experiment taking the eggs, I actually had some white marbles, although round were similar size to the eggs and what I did was, as the female laid her eggs I grabbed them straight out and replaced them with the white marbles and she was happy with that and buried the marbles thinking they were her eggs....I tricked her good.. :lol:
What I do after the female has laid her eggs and because she hasn't eaten for a while, take her out of the enclosure into a separate one and start to feed her up again. I have seen males straight into copulating again and never leave the females alone to recover. I did have one female so harassed by the male trying to copulate with her straight after laying, that she nearly died. So my advice, take her out and give her some tender loving care for a few weeks as the males don't show them that respect.
Incubation
I have had 100% success rate with this method, but it doesn't mean its the only way to cook your Boyd eggs, as there are many different ways which has also been proven with snake eggs as we all know.I believe if something works for you then there's no reason to change it!
I get a click clack (or any other container you can get that has a lid) and make a vermiculite mix, so its damp but NOT wet, not sure of the ratio of water to vermiculite as I don't measure the ratio, but remember don't make it watery all the water must be absorbed by the vermiculite.
A test you can do is, if you can grad a handful of the vermiculite mix, squeeze out all excessive water (not too much pressure as you want it to be moist) and if it stays in that clump it in your hand that's good enough. If its too wet you will get mould and this will kill your eggs, too dry and the same will happen.
After i have the vermiculite mix sorted, I make a little divet or hole with my finger in the vermiculite mix, only about 5mm deep which I place the egg into, not so its standing upright, so its laying on its side. The hole should only be as deep as half the height of the egg., ie half the egg in the mix and half the egg above it. after placing all the eggs in the mix, so that they are spaces between, I then place a layer of moist sphagnum moss over the top of the eggs. Again not wet but moist and not too thick just enough to cover the eggs.
Cover them up and place in the incubator.
I was told by some wise old herpers that have bred Boyds for years and which I gained valuable knowledge first up before I did my own thing and experiment, was to incubate at 28C, cooler than snake eggs, which I have done consistently again & again and have had 100% success rate, so this temp works perfectly! Again there would be many variables and temps as we all know, but for this thread, its a guide that works well, so we don't need to discuss other ways really.
Even few days check on the dampness of the substrate and give the sphagnum moss a fine spray of water IF required and to let some fresh air into the container. If you do all of the above, in about 60-70 days the little bubs will start to emerge.
I have had some late arrivals even 2 weeks after the first to hatch, so just leave them in for longer if you have some that haven't hatched. You can tell if the eggs still OK, if it is not covered in mould, or doesn't smell and has swollen from its original size, all is still good inside and just wait it out, it will come out eventually.
Caring for the bubs next....

That was a great post!
This thread has mad me feel alot more confident about getting some Boyds.