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floweringqueen

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I'm new to this and learning slowly.. I've had Dayah for a few months and she seemed settled in her new larger enclosure. She has decided suddenly, with change of owner, that she doesn't think rats are pretty enough to eat :oops: So she had 5wks then 7wks no food. Eventually I feed her F/T quail & mice and all is dandy. My first question is why is there such an emphasis on feeding rat over mice? Apart from the convenience of defrosting one animal over 2 or 3...?

Temps 21 in the water bowl down on the ground, 25 on the middle branch and 28/29 on the basking hide.

Lately she has been swimming alot, the past 2 days she has been coiled totally inside her water bowl. the WHOLE day, not sure what she is doing at 3am though, possibly roaming around.. NSW temps outside are like 22-27, so not exceedingly hot.

I understand this is natural behaviour when hot or pre-shed but she shed well at end of July & I don't think its too hot. She was really cold and slow when i removed her from the bowl..

The other odd thing I've noticed, prior to this, is like an abrasion on her nose, a red scaly, almost scabby area (pic attached). It is possible she's scraped her nose on the new abrasive concrete background (she was used to glass and fake grass before), or burnt herself on the heat lamp. But that seems unlikely.

Today, after extricating her from her apparent sit-out in the water bowl, I notice red spots on her chin... haven't seen this before and wonder what it is? Can you help? She successfully fed on 2 adult mice so her mouth is working OK ;-)

IMAG1888_1.jpgedited_1474625404569.jpgIMAG1887_1.jpgIMAG1871_1.jpg
 
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Several points from your post. First up, 28/29 is not hot enough at the basking spot; you should be aiming for around 32. Is your heat lamp caged? Snakes can/will touch the heat source, so it needs to be caged.
If it is in the waterbowl, it is either going to shed, or possibly has mites. If you put it in a tub with paper towel on the bottom, you should see some dark specks after a while. If they can be squished, then they are mites. I tend to think it is pre-shed behaviour.
 
Pythons often get into their water bowls for both of the above reasons, and also if they don't have access to a warm enough basking spot. It seems counter-intuitive, but water stays more stable temperature-wise if there is a lot of fluctuation in the enclosure, so they prefer to remain somewhere where it's a more even temperature. As pf suggests, bump the basking spot up to 32-33C to get a better feeding response, and make sure the snake cannot come into contact with the heat source.

If the pinkish and cloudy tinge is evident also under the rear end and tail of the snake, it's likely coming up for a shed. Don't handle it during this time, and don't bother offering food. Try not to vary what the snake has been used to eating out of your own frustration - this can lead to selective interest in food types, and can become very inconvenient. If it was eating rats before, it will again if the husbandry parameters are good, especially enclosure temperatures.

These snakes are seasonal operators - they do different things at different times of the year, and going off food is not unusual through the cooler months and into spring, due to hormonal influences. All forms of Carpet Python are hardy, so if you have your husbandry issues correctly set, you should have few problems with the animal, but just be aware that they don't behave the same way all year round. A couple of months without food is nothing to worry about.

If you have any wire covering the vents in the enclosure, that's probably where the abrasion on the nose has occurred (flywire or other metal meshes act like cheese graters on snake noses) - you must get rid of the wire immediately, or cover it with fabric, or the snake will be permanently scarred, and may be prone to stomatitis which will need antibiotic treatment.

Jamie
 
Several points from your post. First up, 28/29 is not hot enough at the basking spot; you should be aiming for around 32. Is your heat lamp caged? Snakes can/will touch the heat source, so it needs to be caged.
If it is in the waterbowl, it is either going to shed, or possibly has mites. If you put it in a tub with paper towel on the bottom, you should see some dark specks after a while. If they can be squished, then they are mites. I tend to think it is pre-shed behaviour.

Thankyou, I will increase the temp. Yes I wondered if it was a mite problem, I checked the water bowl and didn't see any floating. Will test as you suggested. She shed end of July, so I thought it too early for another shed cycle, but I note her colours have darkened indicating she is entering it. There is no rule for the frequency of sheds I gather? I did not notice this water bowl behaviour before that shed though...

No the heat source is not caged, as the person who made it keeps jungles himself and didn't think it necessary.

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@pythoninfinite Thanks man, I see you get around on this site :) Appreciate your input.

There are metal disc with holes in them over vents, so yes it is possible she has grated herself there. No other wire or metal except the hanging thermometer thingy.

I repeat: "My first question is why is there such an emphasis on feeding rat over mice? Apart from the convenience of defrosting one animal over 2 or 3...?"
You mention the inconvenience of her being selective, can you please elaborate on that? What can happen if she prefers mice? Is there less of a supply of mice on the market or they are not the best nutritionally or...it just costs more?

Should i create a new thread for this point
 
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I would think the main reason is as you mentioned, 1 vs. 2 or 3. Reptiles can go off their food with a change of surroundings, and in your case the lower temperature could have an effect on its eating habits.
 
My Stimsons will only take mice. Consistently refused rats of the same size (and colour) as an adult mouse for 2 months. Offered a mouse and he went straight for it.
The next week I tried to give him a rat and tried with him for a good 15 mins. Got out a mouse that I had thawed out with the rat and he struck the glass trying to get it.

picky buggers...
 
I would think the main reason is as you mentioned, 1 vs. 2 or 3. Reptiles can go off their food with a change of surroundings, and in your case the lower temperature could have an effect on its eating habits.

Yes I get the change of ownership/environment can put them off but she was initially housed at mine in exactly the same set up as the previous handler, same heat source, same temps except she came 1hr south @ the start of winter so ambient temperatures a touch lower. I tried the same feeding procedure of putting her in a tub with the same size rat, but with no success, and from previous advice on this forum, I concluded the feeding tub was a silly idea and tried in her viv... she ate ratty once but only when leaving it in there n covering n walking away for hours. she must've just decided to fast with the change...

Maybe I'll try a smaller rat next time? She's now struck ferociously at adult mice for 2 feeds and comes back for more ;-)

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My Stimsons will only take mice. Consistently refused rats of the same size (and colour) as an adult mouse for 2 months. Offered a mouse and he went straight for it.
The next week I tried to give him a rat and tried with him for a good 15 mins. Got out a mouse that I had thawed out with the rat and he struck the glass trying to get it.
picky buggers...

Hilarious, do they taste better you reckon?
 
Don't know about better, but mice would certainly taste different. They certainly smell different; we used to have one breeding tub of mice, and they smelt far worse than all of the rat tubs put together.
You can also try day old chicks, or quail.
 
Don't know about better, but mice would certainly taste different. They certainly smell different; we used to have one breeding tub of mice, and they smelt far worse than all of the rat tubs put together.
You can also try day old chicks, or quail.

Well, there's one reason why we prefer feeding rats... but how could anything smell worse than rats??
 
Or even offer a mouse get her in the crazy feeding mode and then offer a rat, used to work with my pain in the butts that wouldn't switch to rats
Do that a few times then offer the rat first and they would just smash it


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Poke holes in the rat so it bleeds a little.... I've never had a snake refuse a bloodied rat.


EDIT: 1000th Post! Yewwww!!
 
Poke holes in the rat so it bleeds a little.... I've never had a snake refuse a bloodied rat.
EDIT: 1000th Post! Yewwww!!

Yeah I have heard about braining as well but it is not an option for me. I am just not able to imagine doing that, it's hard enough doing the defrost & blowdry thing coz of the smell & weirdness of it all :|:| .. let alone stabbing it. anyhoo...

I think this thread is closed :D

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So to finalise, returning to the original thread title about the sitting in the water bowl for 2 days straight:

I believe pf & Jamie's verdict of too cool was the answer, as I fed her and upped the temps to 33 & she has returned to sitting on her hide.
The pink/red dots under her chin I assume are a shed indicator, as her belly is starting to go pink now and now she's is hiding out.

thanks everyone for your input 8)

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Or even offer a mouse get her in the crazy feeding mode and then offer a rat, used to work with my pain in the butts that wouldn't switch to rats
Do that a few times then offer the rat first and they would just smash it

Yes!!! kittycat, this is the best tip, & the only new one, I've received on this topic! I'm gonna do that next time, after she sheds...
 
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Yeah I have heard about braining as well but it is not an option for me. I am just not able to imagine doing that, it's hard enough doing the defrost & blowdry thing coz of the smell & weirdness of it all :|:| .. let alone stabbing it. anyhoo...

It's not actually as bad as it sounds! And I poke holes in the rats side which actually bleeds, whereas when I tried braining, I just got yellow coloured brain liquid. Was pretty eww.
 
[MENTION=42462]floweringqueen[/MENTION], once you increase your basking spot to 32-33 deg C you will find your Python will start smashing the bigger prey items, you ask why is this so....... I read a passage from a reptile book I got hold of that read when Snakes of any Sp can not or are not kept at the optimum temp range they become sluggish in their feeding responses and seem to know that a smaller prey item will digest better at the lower available temp, You ask about the difference between feeding 1 good rat and several smaller mice..... 1 good size Rat has much more muscle and bone density than several small mice as well as thicker skin and fur, it all helps with overall dietary needs for Calcium and connective tissue. Some Pythons are just stuck on the prey item they started on and for some reason will not change for hell or high water, but it is best to try and get it onto a bigger Rat as soon as you can and as the basking temp rises you might just find it will happen. As far as your heat lamp is concerned GET IT CAGED AS SOON AS YOU CAN before your snake burns to death, they do not feel heat like we do and if it decided to wrap itself around the heat lamp while it was off then the snake would not feel the excess heat building up when it came on until it's insides were cooked, it has happened to many, many people and is totally avoidable, hope this helps. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) -ronhalling
 
[MENTION=36030]ronhalling[/MENTION] thankyou you finally answered my Q re rat vs mice nutritionally ;-)
 
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