Does size really matter?

[Emilie]

Where do you purchase the nest things from dannydee?

bunnings have plenty of that in their garden department

 

[JasonL]

Click clack are not to reduce stress but to maintain heating, large glass enclosures usually have plenty of cold spots, many hatchlings will find these cold spots and hide in them and stop eating, but this depends on where you live and the species of snake you have and how well that snake eats. Breeders that sell 100 plus snakes a year get plenty of feed back from people under heating snakes and having trouble feeding them, telling them to keep in small tubs for a while is generally best for everyone, inc the snake.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Any really experienced keeper will tell you that small snakes and hatchies often fail to thrive in large enclosures, and I will dispute the anthropomorphic argument that hatchies are not happy & secure in a 5 litre tube for the first few months of life. Baby snakes NEED just the kind of environment that a hatchy tub provides - you don't see them lying around in the sun, enjoying the view in their bush homes - during the day they are tucked up tight and hidden away in the smallest secure space they can find. At night they don't flaunt themselves either - too many predators. A hatchy tub provides a semi-dark, warm environment, complete with water and shelter. Environmental enrichment can come later when they are more established.

The massive survival rate of our captives compared to that of wild snakes tells the entire story.

Jamie

 

[Xeaal]

I can understand what u r saying tho there r other things to consider....i had 2 x stimi hatchies that every time i upped into there 1st enclosure they stopped feeding....put back in click clack and eat like champions.....took some time and effort to get them restarted but both now in large enclosures....also i have brought both my carpets up the same way and its easy for your 1st steps in handling with them also....easy feeding ...and once they comfortable then move um on....EACH to there own and there will always be people AGREE to disagree....just look at the last few days threads...so this is advice only and i wont be getting into any **** fight if anyone disagreesssssssssss

Yes, I understand that for babies a small environment is necessary.. no argument there. I just mean as they get larger. I am currently working on a project where I have a 4ftx2ftx2ft upright enclosure. A young RSP will be going into it - BUT I am putting an "adjustable floor" into it, (yes it will be a very snug fitting one) so that while it's still young, it just has the top half of the enclosure and as it gets bigger, the enclosure can be adjusted to accommodate size. This way, there is no stress for the animal to be moved into a new enclosure. And yes, I will post pics when project is complete.

 

[caleb96]

Cheers

 

[Omgitschris]

Yes, I understand that for babies a small environment is necessary.. no argument there. I just mean as they get larger. I am currently working on a project where I have a 4ftx2ftx2ft upright enclosure. A young RSP will be going into it - BUT I am putting an "adjustable floor" into it, (yes it will be a very snug fitting one) so that while it's still young, it just has the top half of the enclosure and as it gets bigger, the enclosure can be adjusted to accommodate size. This way, there is no stress for the animal to be moved into a new enclosure. And yes, I will post pics when project is complete.

That seems completely unnecessary, Why dont you just keep in a tub until its a year old or so, then upgrade to an enclosure ?!
I'm sure your RSP would appreciate that more than his "adjustable floor" falling off due to poor carpentary skills or any other unpredictable situations you cannot anticipate. You seem to be making a big deal of nothing, keep it in a tub while its a young, then give it an enclosure to accomodate the size it will grow into after a year in said tub.
& tubs come in different sizes, don't be stingy & there won't be a problem. It all seems so simple....

 

[Endeavour]

I think this thread is demonstrating yet again that within the hobby there are different ways people do things. Its important to accept that while we might not always agree with how some people do things we do take the time to civilly 'listen' to what they have to say. Sometimes unorthodox ways of doing things one day become common place several years down the line, just me thinking out loud really.


Kindest regards


Endeavour

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Yes, I understand that for babies a small environment is necessary.. no argument there. I just mean as they get larger. I am currently working on a project where I have a 4ftx2ftx2ft upright enclosure. A young RSP will be going into it - BUT I am putting an "adjustable floor" into it, (yes it will be a very snug fitting one) so that while it's still young, it just has the top half of the enclosure and as it gets bigger, the enclosure can be adjusted to accommodate size. This way, there is no stress for the animal to be moved into a new enclosure. And yes, I will post pics when project is complete.

That's an interesting idea, but a lot of work for no real reason. Snakes are not sedentary animals, except perhaps very mature pythons which might live for years in pretty much the same spot. They move around all the time, especially as they grow and need to occupy different niches in their environment. Changing to a larger enclosure as the animal grows is unlikely to cause any deleterious stress - just as curling up under a different rock or log because it was what was nearby is a perfectly normal response to not being where you were the night before (I've done it myself sometimes when I was younger )! Waking up in a brand new, larger home with new decor and interesting furnishings might actually add a bit of stimulation to an otherwise extremely boring life...

Jamie

 

[Norm]

I agree Jamie, for what its worth I`m not totally sold on the big enclosures stress them out thing. Enclosures don`t come much bigger than mother nature. The difference is at home we remove the threat of predators and climate/temperature variations that could also have an effect like severe drought, bushfires etc.
Someone said earlier that small snakes stay under cover most of the time, day and night, true but they can do the same in an enclosure with plenty of hides and cover.
Is it any less stressful being in a click clack that is supposedley secure and having the lid ripped off and a giant hand come in and pick you up only to be returned to that same spot and have the same thing happen time and time again with nowhere to go to find a safer place to hide?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I agree Jamie, for what its worth I`m not totally sold on the big enclosures stress them out thing. Enclosures don`t come much bigger than mother nature. The difference is at home we remove the threat of predators and climate/temperature variations that could also have an effect like severe drought, bushfires etc.
Someone said earlier that small snakes stay under cover most of the time, day and night, true but they can do the same in an enclosure with plenty of hides and cover.
Is it any less stressful being in a click clack that is supposedley secure and having the lid ripped off and a giant hand come in and pick you up only to be returned to that same spot and have the same thing happen time and time again with nowhere to go to find a safer place to hide?

As you say Norm, snakes find discreet niches to secrete themselves and to feel safe. However, in very large enclosures, it can be difficult for very small snakes to find a suitable "niche," simply because the enclosure environment is likely to fluctuate far more with regard to temperature and humidity than the big outdoors, where thermal mass plays a greater role in stabilising those factors in the niches they choose. As a consequence hatchies can find themselves in situations which are quite unsuitable, even in the short-term. I don't think it does any harm for a snake to get used to "giant hands" from a very early age. If you want a wild snake, keep it in a naturalistic enclosure... Very large enclosures for very small snakes also mean significant disruptiom when the owner is ferreting through the enclosure looking for the blighter, and also makes recognition of illness far more hit & miss...

But all of this is moot in terms of debate - breeding successes have never been better, hatchy survival, health, and excellent growth into adulthood is almost assured these days using the now tried - and - true methods of rack-raising and progressive enlargement of enclosures as they grow. The enormous success we enjoy today in the hobby is largely due to these fairly recent husbandry developments. I've been deeply involved with reptiles for 50+ years, and have never seen so many hugely healthy snakes in so many hands, even inexperienced ones, as I do now.

I don't see any need to reinvent the wheel, as many people seem to want to do. Go back to the old ways, or let anthropomorphic considerations dictate your management practices, and general captive reptile health will begin to fall back to that of the 50s & 60s, where losses were far higher than they are today.

Jamie

 

[Norm]

Jamie, you always have a way of making it sound more scientific than i can! LOL Your right, the tried & true methods that most people use do work, thats the way Ive done it so far. Click clack into a bigger cage and then a bigger one again. But I also see no problem with putting them straight into a bigger enclosure with plenty of hides, not a huge 6 foot high one or anything but 2-3 foot.
I`ll probably contradict myself here but I have seen problems with this also where someone had 2 young darwins in a large cage with heaps of hides, vines, branches and crap everywhere. It was extremely difficult to get the snakes out, they continually wrapped themselves around stuff or hid under the next available log getting both themselves and the guy trying to catch them very worked up.

 

[ouroboros]

Oh, the finch nest is so cute.

- - - Updated - - -

And I put my Aurora into a 4 ft tank when she was about 4 months old. Definitely no issues with 'failure to thrive' almost the opposite. She has grown very well. In my opinion the key is having multiple hides throughout the enclosure regardless of the size of the snake. Also having the correct heating and lighting and more than one water source. My new beardie is in a 4 ft tank also. He has 5 hides all throughout the temp gradient. He seems pretty happy.

Like others have said, it comes down to personal choice. Environment/decor will always trump the size of the enclosure in my opinion.

 

[crocodile_dan]

I have stayed out of posting because I have voiced my opinions on this topic on a few occasions, and I knew others would post views that reflect my own. For clarity, my views correlate very closely to those of pythoninfinite though.

The one question I would like to address though is how some people can determine their pythons emotions, specifically happiness and enjoyment? If anyone can elaborate on the behavioural cues to accurately determine the level of "joy" a python experiences I would be interested to learn, you can PM me if you want.

 

[Sleazy.P.Martini]

I have stayed out of posting because I have voiced my opinions on this topic on a few occasions, and I knew others would post views that reflect my own. For clarity, my views correlate very closely to those of pythoninfinite though.

The one question I would like to address though is how some people can determine their pythons emotions, specifically happiness and enjoyment? If anyone can elaborate on the behavioural cues to accurately determine the level of "joy" a python experiences I would be interested to learn, you can PM me if you want.

Can't be bothered reading the thread again word for word, dis someone say "joy"? Is their python joyess? I think you'll find these are identifiable emotions that people use to label reptiles. I'm sure what's meant by a happy, content or joyess snake is one that is feeding well, showing normal behavior and not expressing any signs of stress. Did you really want to know that or were you just pointing out the intellectual in ability of reptiles to feel joy and assuming people actually thought they did?

- - - Updated - - -

How would one determine their animal was "healthy"? Would it not be in the same way?

 

[crocodile_dan]

I derived joy from the word enjoy or enjoyment I don't want to find the exact quote. I was eluding to the anthropomorphism that people attribute to some animals as well as some people's comparison of mammalian characteristics to reptilian individuals.

From what I took away from some posts was people interpreting their pythons behaviour as enjoying either a large enclosure or 'outdoor time'. I think people are misinterpreting behaviours to satisfy their anthropomorphic stance on husbandry.

Not trying to have a go at any one specifically (one of the reasons I didn't quote), I just personally don't believe people can accurately determine a pythons "happiness"

I think you have clarified my question very well. We can aim to create the healthiest and best adjusted individuals to a captive life as possible, I just think some of the words/comparisons used are out of context when applied to reptiles.

 

[Sleazy.P.Martini]

Yeh, that's pretty much what I was saying. But you know humans, they insist on comparing everything to themselves

 

[SteveNT]

We have a range of enclosures from 30x30x45 to 1.2x 60x60 and as we always get hatchies (1 per year seems to be the average) they just move up a size as they grow. I'm about to build a 1.9x1x.6 for the bhp (now seven foot long) and everyone will move up a size.

Hmmm.... now what to put in that little tank????

 

[emmalene_bunny]

Hmmm.... now what to put in that little tank????

I like what your thinking! Maybe Christmas will surprise you this year?

 

[cement]

Yes if you are new to reptiles then growing a snake out in a tub is the best way. Once you get a handle on them and realise that anthropomorphising is bad husbandry practice, then you can easily grow a hatchy out in a large cage. But like keeping in outdoor avairies, it is much harder to monitor the health of the animal when in a large enclosure.
With reptiles there is very rarely, many ways to keep a species. It is simply adequate or not.
Its the keepers ability (or perceived ability) that make the difference.
Don't try and re-invent the wheel. Use methods that are proven. They work and are used by experienced keepers and breeders for good reason. Its better for the animal, and isn't this the goal?

 

[ouroboros]

I'm sure what's meant by a happy, content or joyess snake is one that is feeding well, showing normal behavior and not expressing any signs of stress.

That's it exactly Happy is a lot quicker to type.