Age old debate, NATURE or NURTURE

[Benwar]

Just wondering what every bodies thoughts are with relation to this often sensitive topic, I'm talking in reference to the way you keep your reptiles, feeding, enclosures, cleaning etc.

I personally subscribe to nature for the simple reason that many species of animal across most classifications, mammals, fish, reptiles often benefit in terms of overall health and growth rate when exposed to a less than sterile environment.

Humans, when subjected to ongoing antibiotic treatments develop gut and skin disorders at much higher numbers than non antibiotic taking counterparts, calfs benefit immediately as milk produced in the first few weeks by the cow is rich in nutrients and boosts the immunity of vulnerable youngsters and an interesting case exists with fish, if eggs are removed from the parents and hatched separately they are often severely disadvantaged as coming into contact with the faeces of the parents transfers gut bacteria and speeds up the development of a healthy gut culture and allows them to properly digest and extract nutrients from their food.

As mostly solitary animals it is hard to think of a situation where being linked with others of the same or different species will benefit the snake however there are aspects where the debate is relevant.

I have seen photos of enclosures that are stripped back to basic wooden hides and substrate. This is a widely used practice for breeders and those with a larger collection, who require more sterile conditions and may not neccesarily be able to maintain more complex enclosures, but for the recreational keeper who has display tanks this seems like a waste. The argument of keeping the conditions as sterile as possible can be negated by the argument that exposure to less than sterile conditions will allow the reptile to develop a healthier immune system and therefore be able to deal with issues that may develop, for example bacteria remaining in the tank if the faeces isn't properly removed, in no way am i saying that you should leave your beloved pets in their own filth but the argument can be made that by trying to avoid having these conditions we may be weakening our pets and in the event that they are exposed to the conditions the result may be a worse infection or reaction and possibly the worst case scenario.

This is just my 2 cents and i am POSITIVE there will be a million different opinions on this topic so if you choose to respond please be mindful that everyone else is entitled to their own opinion and unless some ones method of keeping is downright irresponsible please try and refrain from attacking/attempting to convert others to your method.

 

[Riffherper]

I wouldn't really classify this as 'Nurture vs nature'. This phenomenon questions whether a species is inherently good/placid or bad/aggressive due to genetic makeup alone or conditions in which it is raised.

 

[Benwar]

I think it's more to do with if something will benefit most from being allowed to develop naturally or if having the perfect conditions is more beneficial, which sounds like a no brainier that the perfect conditions will be better but I'm more asking with regards to health and growth

 

[mikey_mike]

It's an artificial dichotomy and a pointless question. Both are required. DNA requires a suitable environment to reproduce and no matter what the environment, an organism won't thrive without the appropriate genetic material.

In essence nature and nurture both interact and both are equally necessary.

 

[Paintbrushturkey]

I mean no offense but your topic title does not make sense, perhaps you shpuld change it to clarify, maybe somethign along the lines of vivariums vs minimal set ups or somethign similar... that said it vastly more expensive to maintain a vivarium than it is to maintain a box with heat and water in it. I do not think either has major disadvantages if done right, it's just that a vivarium is vastly more expensive to both furnish and maintain...

 

[ronhalling]

I can see the point the OP is trying to make, he just did not put it in terms we could all understand, I think what he means is in nature from egg to eventual death a reptile, be it lizard or snake, eats what it catches and lives where and how it can, in nature the foods it eats have all sorts of nasties in and or on it, but because it has always eaten this foods it has built up antigens to combat all these nasties, "but" with nurture, we, as keepers don't feed wild caught animals to our pets as they have not built up antigens, as we have all been taught it is dangerous, so we buy sterile frozen food or breed our own in what could be termed sterile conditions, in all probability if we returned our pets to the wild a lot of them would not survive. As far as living conditions for our pets i think he is asking is it better to have things less than sterile, IE not spot cleaning or not cleaning all the excriment from the enclosure to allow some bacterial levels to survive to try and build up some antigens in our "kept" animals thereby maybe building up some resistance to some of the infections our charges can get. If this is not the case then the OP can get it straight now. ................................Ron

 

[Benwar]

Thank you Ron that is the point I was attempting to make however my point extend further to beyond physical health into mental health, it is widely assumed that a reptile can happily live it like in a simplistic enclosure but as an animal we cannot ask it how it's mental state is, so shouldn't the best interest of the snake be put forward and assume that mental stimulation by rearranging and bringing in new enclosure adornments is necessary for the snakes mental development? I know it might seem a bit airy fairy but I strongly disagree with caging any animal unless all attempts are mad to replicate it's natural environment and ensure both mental and physical health . After all Mother Nature has been doing a pretty good job for millions of years

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Benwar,

Personally I don't think they need any mental stimulation as they haven't had the need (or perhaps the opportunity) to develop their brain as we have.

From what I've read my understanding is that human, primate and mammal brains developed over a period of about 200 million years from a simple reptile brain to the complex organ it is today that has the ability to recognise emotion, aesthetics, empathy and contentment. The reptile brain has not developed further over that 200 million year period and is only concerned with survival, mating, dominance and physical maintenance. Unlike ours it does not require stimulation to maintain mental health and development.

It is an interesting point you raise regarding possible effects to the immune system of snakes only fed a diet of "clean" food items. I don't know enough about snakes' immune systems to comment and I'd be interested if anyone can lead me to any papers or articles that have been published on the subject. From what I have read it appears that stress plays a fare more important role on effecting a reptile's immune system than producing antigens.

Given the fact that captive snakes consume whole food items and those items contained undigested food and faeces plus bacteria attached to the coat, feathers or skin of the food item I believe it is highly probable that they digest enough bacteria to maintain a healthy immune system however; considering the porous nature of reptile eggs, what may be worth a thought is a comparison of effect on the immune system of neonates incubated in a controlled sterile environment and those incubated in a natural environment.

So IMO I believe as long as a reptile is maintained in good general and physical health it doesn't really matter how the enclosure is set up.

GW

 

[crocodile_dan]

it is widely assumed that a reptile can happily live it like in a simplistic enclosure but as an animal we cannot ask it how it's mental state is, so shouldn't the best interest of the snake be put forward and assume that mental stimulation by rearranging and bringing in new enclosure adornments is necessary for the snakes mental development? I know it might seem a bit airy fairy but I strongly disagree with caging any animal unless all attempts are mad to replicate it's natural environment and ensure both mental and physical health

The assumption that increased stimulus will have a positive effect is baseless, until the animal is exposed to the stimulus there is no method of making any conclusions as to it's effect, predictions could certainly be made but blanket statements are redundant. The species, natural history, individual history, presentation of the stimulus and the stimulus itself can all influence the effect. There is also the logical prediction that any stimulus could have a negative effect of varied magnitude on the animal. Although stress itself is an accepted form of enrichment, welfare and husbandry wise probably not optimal at certain levels or for extended periods.

Even though they are animals who don't communicate with the english language there are certainly various methods to assess their physiological and behavioural state, to some degree (and often subject to perception).

I recommend you look into enrichment, specifically within the zoological industry. Whilst enrichment is a key component to the captive management of animals it does present potential health concerns and sometimes enrichment does go wrong.