# Reduced Pattern Morph Carpets



## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 2, 2009)

Hi all
I have been a visitor on this site for a long time and untill now I have found it easy without being a member to gain info regarding certain topics, I understand that reduced pattern carpets have featured in Australian magazines and that a recent thread regarding these animals was deleted. There is also alot of talk about hatchlings being available soon, however no-one seems to be able to come through with the goods. 

Surely they are out there and available.

I am not trying to start another mud slinging match, far from it. I simply am keen to locate an alternative source of these animals and establish what they will be worth in the upcoming months or years. I am more interested in what other keepers think they are worth and if anyone has any available. When I say reduced pattern I mean reduced pattern carpets that posess the co-dominant gene. 

Does anyone out there have any ideas 

greatly appreciated
Josh


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## kidsheart (Dec 2, 2009)

sxr have produced some recently.
Southern Cross Reptiles - Tanami Woma Hatchlings
i think they may be claimed to be coastal x md, but im not certain. someone on here can probably clear that up.
also alot of people are saying they are jags.
however personally i dont think they look to be jags.
they dont have the same super clean colour/pattern jags seem to have and im not sure, they just dont scream jag to me. but i do think they still look incredible.
there are a few other people around producing nice RP's, not certain if anyone else is working with co-dom rp though??? (ofcoase besides jags)


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## Blondesnakelover (Dec 2, 2009)

I don't know if they are co-dom gene, but Snakepower produces some great looking RP carpets!

Check out his site [URL*no links please*/URL]


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## bubbaloush (Dec 2, 2009)

""what they will be worth in the upcoming months or years""

If they are coastal x mds then i would say not much, its basically a mongrel. If it does turn out to be from a smuggled jag i would say even less and they should be destroyed and the owner/owners charged, isn't that what they do with smuggled snakes?? If it is the latter then i hope anyone who has bought from them previously get informed incase they have a cross that has been sold as a pure.

Off to feed my baby no doubt there will be lots to read once he's asleep!


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## Jason (Dec 2, 2009)

bubbaloush said:


> If they are coastal x mds then i would say not much, its basically a mongrel. If it does turn out to be from a smuggled jag i would say even less and they should be destroyed and the owner/owners charged, isn't that what they do with smuggled snakes?? If it is the latter then i hope anyone who has bought from them previously get informed incase they have a cross that has been sold as a pure.



haha.. thats pretty funny. do people realize how popular jags are? do you realize how 'in demand' they are. most people wont want pure coastal jags like SXR are selling, most will want the designer jungle jags, darwin jags etc. the beaut thing about SXR is that the starting stock was pure coastal hence you actually know what you get and start with. most if not all the others i have found are who knows what crosses.

i do agree that this thread will again last forever.

to address the original question in regards to cost. from what i hear the females will be about 2K and males about 3K. ironically i have been offered similar dollars for my pure RP darwins


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## kidsheart (Dec 2, 2009)

even if they are pure, i would say they will come down in price pretty quick. definatly quicker than albinos have/did, due to being a co dom gene.
personally i dont mind if they are md x or if it is the jag gene in them. id still love one.


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## kupper (Dec 2, 2009)

Best not mention the rip off merchant Kris might sick the lawyers onto us for slander


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## kidsheart (Dec 2, 2009)

caustichumor said:


> But kris, then you only have a cool looking snake, I think that people want the whole Jag experiance, you know with the shaking and spasms...


 
whats the deal with the neuro problems?
do you know if its something that is part of the parcel with the leucistic gene?
or is it just by chance that the first jag had neuro probs and it cant be "shaken" (haha) now and is passed from gen to gen?
i hope thats not a stupid question .. haha


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## kupper (Dec 2, 2009)

It's an issue that pops up with a certain stimulae is triggered with the snake like feeding other snakes ect


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## Reptile City (Dec 3, 2009)

Its best to keep species pure!
If keepers want something that looks differant they should concentrate on breeding for traits.
Some are working on amazing pure species!
They are the respected keepers & I hope they keep it up!
Some *used* to be respected breeder have got a lot of keepers talking about them & its all bad.
They couldnt care less about the future of our awesome hobbie we have.
For some people its all about the money & they are good at pulling the wool over your eyes.

I used to look up to them, like & lot off other keepers.
NOT ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!

If the American Jags are in Australia, then highly illegal Crap has gone down.
This puts all true keepers pythons at risk of new desiese & dangerous pathergens.

How did Aust get OPMV or IBD ?


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## jasonryles810 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yawn, here we go again


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## Ewan (Dec 3, 2009)

We really should keep this on the same path as the OPs topic.

"I simply am keen to locate an alternative source of these animals and establish what they will be worth in the upcoming months or years. I am more interested in what other keepers think they are worth and if anyone has any available."

it really is too early to tell what the prices will be. Most breeders won't work out a price on these until the see what they have to hold back and sell. Seeing as only 25% of each clutch will express the trait there is a good chance that they all will be held back or traded to other breeders for a few generations. Because of the seemingly high demand and short supply they will cost more than they are worth IMO. More importantly than price is to find someone you can trust to buy them from. Which in it's own could be a feat. 

Regards.


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

50% of each clutch should show the rp trait whether breeding to normal, or to another RP with the same trait.
although i agree, alot, if not all of them will be hold backs and the rest probably wont be avaliable to just anyone.
judgeing off the sxr prices, they will be super expensive to start with but should come down pretty rappidly as you only need one animal with the trait to produce a clutch with half rp animals.
id be interested to know what the super form of the sxr animals are? is it still luecism?


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## Sturdy (Dec 3, 2009)

Im interested to see where this new RP morph goes.. Some nice critters so far have been produced.


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## zobo (Dec 3, 2009)

from what I have heard about $3k ea for jags is an ASKING price, but they were also MD crosses from a different person??

anyway being co-dom the price will drop drastically once out there,

j


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## MikeCurtin (Dec 3, 2009)

kupper said:


> It's an issue that pops up with a certain stimulae is triggered with the snake like feeding other snakes ect



No stimuli are required to bring the issue out. Stress exacerbates it, but for the most part, it's there to start with. From what I have seen, all Jags are what I'd consider to be "neurologically weak". Whether they shake and wobble or not, they just move differently than other carpets. Some aren't bad, and others are just plain nuts! 

As for price for the RP's, if the American Jag market is any indicator, I bought my first Coastal Jag in '05 for $1250.00, which included shipping. I have personally seen '09's available for $275.00 this year. I think that's just a factor one must be prepared to deal with when it comes to a Co-Dominant trait in an animal that can produce 30+ eggs in a season.


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## Sturdy (Dec 3, 2009)

MikeCurtin said:


> No stimuli are required to bring the issue out. Stress exacerbates it, but for the most part, it's there to start with. From what I have seen, all Jags are what I'd consider to be "neurologically weak". Whether they shake and wobble or not, they just move differently than other carpets. Some aren't bad, and others are just plain nuts!



Ive heard the super forms tend to show more neurological issues than other jags...
Is this true? or does this just depend on the [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]individual.


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

Sturdy said:


> Ive heard the super forms tend to show more neurological issues than other jags...
> Is this true? or does this just depend on the individual.


 
the super form of the jag morph is luecism, which has been 100% fatal so far


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## Sturdy (Dec 3, 2009)

kidsheart said:


> the super form of the jag morph is luecism, which has been 100% fatal so far



isnt there a few super form jags kicking around in the states which have survived?


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

Sturdy said:


> isnt there a few super form jags kicking around in the states which have survived?


 
from what ive heard theyve all died?
but you could be right, im not certain.
id be interested to know aswell?

maybe mike knows more??


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## ecosnake (Dec 3, 2009)

I dont no about any RP carpet pythons but theres a pair of spotted carpet pythons on the herptrader for sale LOL interesting snake.


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## BROWNS (Dec 3, 2009)

LOL Yeah saw those spottd carpets advertised lol I wonder if people who have purchased these rpm's would have spent ridiculous amounts ofcash if they knew about the neuro problems,I was under the impression only some had these problems but that doesn't seem to be the case.I'm sure we'll have something very similar to jags without any problems and much cheaper down the track.Maybe they won't be as stunning as some of the overseas stuff but remember we usually only get to see pics of the nice ones,some jags don't look anything special at all.If they were crosses nobody would pay that amount of money it just peees me right off that some people are getting away with these blatantly out in the open for all to see.Many of them didn't look anything special at all,I'll stick with jungles all the way which also have many inherited traits such as striping etc the only ones that looked quite nice looked like jungle jags but looked very close to some jungles geting around.With neuro problems plus a lethal gene when bred together make them very undesirable to me that's for sure.Overseas have already muddied the pond as it is,do we really want these in the Australian herp scene????


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 3, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> LOL Yeah saw those spottd carpets advertised lol I wonder if people who have purchased these rpm's would have spent ridiculous amounts ofcash if they knew about the neuro problems,I was under the impression only some had these problems but that doesn't seem to be the case.I'm sure we'll have something very similar to jags without any problems and much cheaper down the track.Maybe they won't be as stunning as some of the overseas stuff but remember we usually only get to see pics of the nice ones,some jags don't look anything special at all.If they were crosses nobody would pay that amount of money it just peees me right off that some people are getting away with these blatantly out in the open for all to see.Many of them didn't look anything special at all,I'll stick with jungles all the way which also have many inherited traits such as striping etc the only ones that looked quite nice looked like jungle jags but looked very close to some jungles geting around.With neuro problems plus a lethal gene when bred together make them very undesirable to me that's for sure.Overseas have already muddied the pond as it is,do we really want these in the Australian herp scene????



Well said... At least not everyone is climbing over each other to get these things... I cant see the whole situation ending well...


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## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks for everyones input, seems as though there arent as many kicking around as I thought.
As for alot of peoples perception of these animals dropping price quite quickly, I tend to disagree. Sure they are a dominant trait, but we have to remember that only 50% of the offspring will be Reduced pattern or Jag. I understand that people will breed them over animals that will produce large clutchs, but generally animals that produce large clutchs such as Bredli, Coastals or Athertons dont tend to produce as nice Jags as something like Black and Golds that generally only have small clutchs. Therefore IMO there will be large numbers produced from less attractive parents IMO these offspring will be cheaper as they are less attractive. Fewer available from more attractive parents, therefore these animals being a little more expensive as they are generally more attractive. When you think about it a Palmerston Jungle usually only has 12 or so eggs, thats only 6 Jags produced in theory. 
Even if a breeder managed to produce 4 clutchs of 12 eggs from a jag, your only talking about 24 Jags. 
Not trying to say that Bredli, Coastals or Athertons are ugly by the way. Just that generally Jungle cross Jags tend to be quite good looking in my opinion


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## BROWNS (Dec 3, 2009)

What about some Atherton lines kicking around?There's some very very nice Atherton jungles around even SXR Athertons produce some stunning animals and there's a few other very nice bloodlines.What about jag like Prossies,they can lay a decent sized clutch and would most likely produce nicer jags but no matter how nice they are or what they're crossed with there's still the neuro issues.Also there are some stunning coastals which as mentioned have large clutches.Take a look at the coastal thread you'll see ow ice some can be!


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

Curious as to what makes you so certain the rpms are jags browns? Just asking because to me they really don't look like jags? I guess we will know for sure once someone breeds rpm to rpm and wether or not it proves fatal. surely sxr wouldn't be selling off animals which are renowned for all having neuros problems, or a fatal super form and hoping noone will notice/realize they really are jags?... Or would they? Not trying to start an argument or anything as you probably know alot more about it than me, just curious?


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

You have to remeber, if a jag is bred to anything other than a coastal, it will not produce pure jag offspring (ofcorse assuming the jag used is pure in the first place,which it probably isn't). Everything else would be a jungle x jag, or Bredli x jag hybrid etc. From what I've read on o/s forums, Jags bred to things like jungles tend to produce messy and unpredictable offspring with maybe 1 or 2 decent looking animals even if the parents are nice. Where as a nice jag bred to a nice coastal will almost always results in all very nice jags. But are the neuro problems worth it like browns said??? Probably not.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

those two year olds dont look anything like jags lol only one looks like it maybe could be a jag sibling, the yearlings however...would be very suprised to find out that they werent jag cross whatever offspring


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## Brown_Hair (Dec 3, 2009)

You mean definitely not! 

It depends on how nice some are coming out tho, if we see the likes of o/s standards been breed and made available it may certainly take off and appeal to alot of people who will either be unaware of neuro problems or will completely disrgard this.

But i beleive were going to have to wait and see what the next 5-10 years bring us. With jags now coming out, other pure albino snakes other then darwins (bhp,olives) plus i beleive we will have pretty much every snake come out in albino thanks to people crossing darwins. 

Now it appears that all those anti hybrid campainers have switched sides or gone underground thanks to jags, it will be interesting to see what happends with more indepth species crosses and albino crosses


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 3, 2009)

kidsheart said:


> Curious as to what makes you so certain the rpms are jags browns? Just asking because to me they really don't look like jags? I guess we will know for sure once someone breeds rpm to rpm and wether or not it proves fatal. surely sxr wouldn't be selling off animals which are renowned for all having neuros problems, or a fatal super form and hoping noone will notice/realize they really are jags?... Or would they? Not trying to start an argument or anything as you probably know alot more about it than me, just curious?



They look like jags to me, and being co-dom that is enough for me to call them jags...

The reduced pattern and increased colour screams Jag...


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## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 3, 2009)

as I said it is just my opinion that Black and Golds will make better jags. There certainly are stunning Athertons, take Mike Moores line for instance. There certainly are stunning coastals, but I like Black and Gold cross Jags. Recently some photos circulated via mobile phone, those jags were apparently Black and Gold cross Jags and another which I am unsure of, both IMO were stunning animals but the Black and Golds were beautiful, I would pay decent cash for a jag similar.
I still have no idea whose they were, or if there are some of them available though.


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## ivonavich (Dec 3, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> those two year olds dont look anything like jags lol only one looks like it maybe could be a jag sibling, the yearlings however...would be very suprised to find out that they werent jag cross whatever offspring


 
Remember those are only the ones that are being sold.... Imagine what they could've held back for themselves....


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## Ewan (Dec 3, 2009)

Does anyone actually know anyone who bought those said RPM two and one year olds? (no need to name names) I have a conspiracy theory that maybe they were never even available for sale. Maybe they were just used to test the water depth before diving.


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## lovey (Dec 3, 2009)

Ewan said:


> Does anyone actually know anyone who bought those said RPM two and one year olds? (no need to name names) I have a conspiracy theory that maybe they were never even available for sale. Maybe they were just used to test the water depth before diving.


 
They seemed to be mostly all sold when i got the email saying they were on sale.


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## Brown_Hair (Dec 3, 2009)

It is certainly a possibility ewan, i have to agree with some people that they dont even look like jags to me


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## BARRAMUNDI (Dec 3, 2009)

Ive had a couple of pms since starting this thread, I can confidently say and Im not going to name names but they were certainly bought, and bought by people reading this thread,


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

BARRAMUNDI said:


> Ive had a couple of pms since starting this thread, I can confidently say and Im not going to name names but they were certainly bought, and bought by people reading this thread,


 
going to give a big LOL at that one, seriosly why would you, even if theyre legit co-dom jags there will be no doubt some specimens of a much much higher quality for a much much lower prices coming up for sale very soon


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## aprice (Dec 3, 2009)

The snakes were all sold. People who bought them knew exactly what they were and exactly what they were getting, otherwise they wouldn't have paid around 4k for a nice "reduced patterned" carpet. There has been neuro problems with a few animals overseas but with outcrossing (jag x unrelated carpet) I highly doubt it will be a problem - it can only strengthen the lines.


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## chilli (Dec 3, 2009)

Ewan said:


> Does anyone actually know anyone who bought those said RPM two and one year olds? (no need to name names) I have a conspiracy theory that maybe they were never even available for sale. Maybe they were just used to test the water depth before diving.



that's what i was thinking, even this thread could be part of it. perhaps barramundi's first name is simon. that would explain why this is the only RPM thread not to be deleted.


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## caustichumor (Dec 3, 2009)

aprice said:


> The snakes were all sold. People who bought them knew exactly what they were and exactly what they were getting, otherwise they wouldn't have paid around 4k for a nice "reduced patterned" carpet. There has been neuro problems with a few animals overseas but with outcrossing (jag x unrelated carpet) I highly doubt it will be a problem - it can only strengthen the lines.



The gene which causes the jag mutation is obviously unstable (hence the nurological problems, and the wonderful super lucistic form," I bet they look great in their formaldehyde jars") You can't "stengthen a line" when you are breeding them purely to exploit that one defective gene.


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## CodeRed (Dec 3, 2009)

geeze if you're gonna shell out 4 or 5k for a jag at least buy a nice one :shock: Not as if these ones are the only ones available


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> geeze if you're gonna shell out 4 or 5k for a jag at least buy a nice one :shock: Not as if these ones are the only ones available


 
excactly


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## Jason (Dec 3, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> geeze if you're gonna shell out 4 or 5k for a jag at least buy a nice one :shock: Not as if these ones are the only ones available



true but from what i have been offered, these are the only ones that are pure coastals... nobody else i have found knows 100% what they have. people buying these know exactly what they are buying. i think some people should go on O/S forums to get a better understanding of these animals. while they are 4K etc they are yearlings and older... they arent hatchlings hence some people will possibly get some to breed next season. you will see the same on forums over seas... some people like em some dont. the outstanding animals you do see posted overseas are generally always young... truth be told after 2 yrs most dont appear nearly as nice as they did as juvies.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

Jason said:


> true but from what i have been offered, these are the only ones that are pure coastals... nobody else i have found knows 100% what they have. people buying these know exactly what they are buying. i think some people should go on O/S forums to get a better understanding of these animals. while they are 4K etc they are yearlings and older... they arent hatchlings hence some people will possibly get some to breed next season. you will see the same on forums over seas... some people like em some dont. the outstanding animals you do see posted overseas are generally always young... truth be told after 2 yrs most dont appear nearly as nice as they did as juvies.


 

if they are co-dom they CANNOT be pure coastals lol, will be waiting til some nice ones pop up


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> if they are co-dom they CANNOT be pure coastals lol, will be waiting til some nice ones pop up


 
why is that?
a jaguar is a coastal. its purely a mutation
so a coastal with the jaguar mutation bred to a normal coastal would produce pure coastals.... some with the jaguar mutation, some without it....


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## CodeRed (Dec 3, 2009)

Jason said:


> true but from what i have been offered, these are the only ones that are pure coastals... nobody else i have found knows 100% what they have. people buying these know exactly what they are buying. i think some people should go on O/S forums to get a better understanding of these animals. while they are 4K etc they are yearlings and older... they arent hatchlings hence some people will possibly get some to breed next season. you will see the same on forums over seas... some people like em some dont. the outstanding animals you do see posted overseas are generally always young... truth be told after 2 yrs most dont appear nearly as nice as they did as juvies.



I am sure you've checked out the various uncensored threads on OS forums concerning these animals. If not I urge you to do so. Many experienced jag breeders have commented on these particular animals and the general consensus is that they are the bottom of the barrel jags. Id post a few links but they'd get removed 

You don't have to look far for much nicer ones.


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## jasonryles810 (Dec 3, 2009)

Then can everyone who seems to know so much, and know of all these jag clutches please put some evidence behind thier hollow comments? There will be bugger all produced this year, those that have them can, and will be asking top dollar. The demand outweighs the supply by a country mile and I have a feeling people are going to be a little dirty when they realise they've missed the train. I'd hate to be sitting around for another 12 months waiting for Simon to release some more scraps onto the market. These snakes, well, this gene anyway is the most exciting development in Australian herpetaculture to work with in a very long time, the potential is limitless.


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## Jason (Dec 3, 2009)

jasonryles810 said:


> Then can everyone who seems to know so much, and know of all these jag clutches please put some evidence behind thier hollow comments? There will be bugger all produced this year, those that have them can, and will be asking top dollar. The demand outweighs the supply by a country mile and I have a feeling people are going to be a little dirty when they realise they've missed the train. I'd hate to be sitting around for another 12 months waiting for Simon to release some more scraps onto the market. These snakes, well, this gene anyway is the most exciting development in Australian herpetaculture to work with in a very long time, the potential is limitless.



do you know how many clutches simon has in the incubator? or everyone else for that matter? from what i have heard there will actually be quite a few around?? 

i know these are in high demand but you will find that alot of people will wait a couple of seasons for these due to the co-dom inheritance... it wont take very long for the numbers to be very high. those that just purchased one of the yearling males from simon will undoubtably try them next season and surely over many females.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

kidsheart said:


> why is that?
> a jaguar is a coastal. its purely a mutation
> so a coastal with the jaguar mutation bred to a normal coastal would produce pure coastals.... some with the jaguar mutation, some without it....


 

the ORIGINAL jag was a cross-breed, who knows how many times the ancestors of jags reaching australia now have been crossed again. you may have a %80 coastal but it will never be pure so why claim it as pure, i love the look of jags but pretending they are something when theyre not is just stupid


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

jasonryles810 said:


> Then can everyone who seems to know so much, and know of all these jag clutches please put some evidence behind thier hollow comments? There will be bugger all produced this year, those that have them can, and will be asking top dollar. The demand outweighs the supply by a country mile and I have a feeling people are going to be a little dirty when they realise they've missed the train. I'd hate to be sitting around for another 12 months waiting for Simon to release some more scraps onto the market. These snakes, well, this gene anyway is the most exciting development in Australian herpetaculture to work with in a very long time, the potential is limitless.


 

lol do some digging around mate, you'd be suprised what you can find on the internet


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> the ORIGINAL jag was a cross-breed, who knows how many times the ancestors of jags reaching australia now have been crossed again. you may have a %80 coastal but it will never be pure so why claim it as pure, i love the look of jags but pretending they are something when theyre not is just stupid


 
the first jag was definatly produced by breeding a pure coastal to a pure coastal.
although since then i agree theyve definatly been cross bred over and over and over with everything so the chances are very slim there are many/any pures around.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

kidsheart said:


> the first jag was definatly produced by breeding a pure coastal to a pure coastal.
> although since then i agree theyve definatly been cross bred over and over and over with everything so the chances are very slim there are many/any pures around.


 

Epic Fail mate, i suggest you go back to the drawing boards


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> Epic Fail mate, i suggest you go back to the drawing boards


 
here mate, do some reading.
ill even link you to some material and copy paste it for you.

The Carpet Python

Jaguar carpets. One of the more familiar morphs is the jaguar carpet python. The jaguar is a rare genetic mutation that originates from the coastal carpet python. The first jaguar was produced in 1994 as a result of breeding two seemingly normal coastals. In 1998, the trait was proven to be genetic, though it is still poorly understood. It seems to be working in a codominant fashion, in that the trait is expressed in one form or another in the first generation of offspring. 
This trait has proven to be much more complex than any other snake morph in existence. Several phases of the jaguar have appeared from the same genetic strain, including the hypo jaguar, red hypo jaguar, spotted red hypo jaguar, banded jaguar, patternless or “banana” jaguar and many more.
It is also worth mentioning that some of the “normal” siblings found among the jaguar clutches tend to differ to varying degrees from those of the wild type (normal unrelated coastals). Many (especially from the hypo and red hypo lines) develop dramatic contrast and brilliant color with age. Some closely resemble the pattern and coloration of a jungle carpet python (M. s. cheynei), and others look like diamond/jungle crosses. This is one reason we think the jaguar is not a typical codominant trait, but possibly a collaboration of multiple genes working together and/or independently. We hope to learn more about the genetic potential normal siblings possess.


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## tomcat88 (Dec 3, 2009)

kidsheart said:


> here mate, do some reading.
> ill even link you to some material and copy paste it for you.
> 
> The Carpet Python
> ...


 

the original jag was produced from a carpet crossed with an irian jaya carpet. I dont mind if you do not believe this keep thinking you have a pure coastal, even if just for a minute the two snakes were two pure coastals - do you really think they would of kept pure lines going just so they could smuggle them into AUS??? lol no way... Once they are here tho of course they will be claiming they are pure havent you noticed the flaming anyone gets for talking or even posting pics of unpure species (jags seem to be an exception to the rule). 
you can buy your overpriced "pure" snakes... ill just keep an eye out for one that actually looks good with a reasonable price


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## kidsheart (Dec 3, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> the original jag was produced from a carpet crossed with an irian jaya carpet. I dont mind if you do not believe this keep thinking you have a pure coastal, even if just for a minute the two snakes were two pure coastals - do you really think they would of kept pure lines going just so they could smuggle them into AUS??? lol no way... Once they are here tho of course they will be claiming they are pure havent you noticed the flaming anyone gets for talking or even posting pics of unpure species (jags seem to be an exception to the rule).
> you can buy your overpriced "pure" snakes... ill just keep an eye out for one that actually looks good with a reasonable price


 
i think youll find that was the first ij jag. not jag. nobody bred the jag to an irian jaya for years after the first was produced. the first time they did breed them together they didnt expect much due to the irian jayas seemingly plain looks. although for some reason it further enhanced the colour, especially as the animal matured to about 2 years. im certain the first one was coastal to coastal. it does get confusing with all the x breeds happening with them though

i agree completely like i said before that there is a pretty slim chance that there are any pure coastal jags still around o/s. and even less chance of any here being pure. 
and as for saving your money and i guess keeping your eye out for a nice jag... id definatly be doing the same mate hahah.


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## moreliainsanity (Dec 4, 2009)

Thing is if they are really that in demand then why does it even ending up getting advertised, you'll think that after the article in the S&T mag about them thousands of people:? who would be interested in purchasing some will just go directly to SXR Inquire , get in the que and no need for them to get advertise for a few years at least ,and not advertise after the same year it was exposed in the magazine.

Herp market is pretty tight at the moment and will only gets worst and it's a lot of money to let go considering we know what defect this python carries in their gene.I personally think that they are not moving as fast as some people think but hey dreams are free so keep dreaming I say


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## Colin (Dec 4, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> the original jag was produced from a carpet crossed with an irian jaya carpet. I dont mind if you do not believe this keep thinking you have a pure coastal, even if just for a minute the two snakes were two pure coastals - do you really think they would of kept pure lines going just so they could smuggle them into AUS??? lol no way... Once they are here tho of course they will be claiming they are pure havent you noticed the flaming anyone gets for talking or even posting pics of unpure species (jags seem to be an exception to the rule).
> you can buy your overpriced "pure" snakes... ill just keep an eye out for one that actually looks good with a reasonable price - so what are you saying here? that you really want RPM's / jags anyway but just dont want to pay this asking price? :lol:



this is incorrect.. the first jags were pure mcdowelli and later crossed with IJ. and if you want to know some more facts the yearlings RPM''s from SXR are pure mcdowelli and the line has been blood / DNA tested to prove this  but when have facts got in the way of some ill informed witch hunt on here? 

all the whinging and whining about these issues and these animals in this thread and other threads just reeks of jealousy, uninformed pack mentality hysteria and sour grapes in my opinion.. 

heres a pic (no not mine but I wish) of one of the 'ugly mongrel hybrid so and so' animals some of you hate so much... and when I look at how beautiful it is I guess I can see why some people are so jealous.. an no Im not interested in some argument so dont even bother... have a nice day


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## Reptile City (Dec 4, 2009)

Colin said:


> this is incorrect.. the first jags were pure mcdowelli and later crossed with IJ. and if you want to know some more facts the yearlings RPM''s from SXR are pure mcdowelli and the line has been blood / DNA tested to prove this  but when have facts got in the way of some ill informed witch hunt on here?
> 
> all the whinging and whining about these issues and these animals in this thread and other threads just reeks of jealousy, uninformed pack mentality hysteria and sour grapes in my opinion..
> 
> heres a pic (no not mine but I wish) of one of the 'ugly mongrel hybrid so and so' animals some of you hate so much... and when I look at how beautiful it is I guess I can see why some people are so jealous.. an no Im not interested in some argument so dont even bother... have a nice day



Colin,
WOW that is a Beautiful Awesome looking python!

I don’t think that is what people are talking about on this thread.

I am also not pointing the finger at anyone just my opinion on what I see, hear & experience in this hobby.

There are Laws governing the Native Fauna in Australia some are blatantly abusing this!


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## BROWNS (Dec 4, 2009)

*rpm/jags?*

So Colin you would be happy to get one of those at those prices even though they have neuro problems just because they look nice?No doubt there's some amazing looking jags but would you be willing to take them in with neuro problems then breed them which would include putting them across all types of morekia to find out which combination looks the best then happily sell them into the hobby knowing they had neurological problems?.Some of the SXR ones may have been coastals but wouldn't be a predictable line however there were many there that screamed jag!People will start crossing them with everything trying to get stronger animals so eventually they successfully get leucistics and many wwould also be trying that which will completely muddle everything up with siblings etc and in time noone will know what they have and.

If they looked like the pictures I've posted which I hope is okay with the person who sent them to me along with no neuro problems I'd love some and with animals like these why wouldn't you?I believe we'll be producing pyre Aussie animals just as good as jags with predictable percentages being jags.


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## Reptile City (Dec 4, 2009)

Browns!

You are spot on in my opinion!

I would buy from you & some others, that are working over many years to create pure RPs species.

Just for the record Reptile City only has 1 RP woma, & its NOT for sale.


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## Weezer (Dec 4, 2009)

lovey said:


> They seemed to be mostly all sold when i got the email saying they were on sale.



I hit the link within a minute of receiving the email- and they were all GONESKIS


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## tomcat88 (Dec 4, 2009)

Colin said:


> this is incorrect.. the first jags were pure mcdowelli and later crossed with IJ. and if you want to know some more facts the yearlings RPM''s from SXR are pure mcdowelli and the line has been blood / DNA tested to prove this  but when have facts got in the way of some ill informed witch hunt on here?
> 
> all the whinging and whining about these issues and these animals in this thread and other threads just reeks of jealousy, uninformed pack mentality hysteria and sour grapes in my opinion..
> 
> heres a pic (no not mine but I wish) of one of the 'ugly mongrel hybrid so and so' animals some of you hate so much... and when I look at how beautiful it is I guess I can see why some people are so jealous.. an no Im not interested in some argument so dont even bother... have a nice day


 
hmm seemed to be proven wrong lol, oh well win some lose some. that animal is BEAUTIFUL


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 4, 2009)

Colin said:


> this is incorrect.. the first jags were pure mcdowelli and later crossed with IJ. *and if you want to know some more facts the yearlings RPM''s from SXR are pure mcdowelli and the line has been blood / DNA tested to prove this*  but when have facts got in the way of some ill informed witch hunt on here?
> 
> all the whinging and whining about these issues and these animals in this thread and other threads just reeks of jealousy, uninformed pack mentality hysteria and sour grapes in my opinion..
> 
> heres a pic (no not mine but I wish) of one of the 'ugly mongrel hybrid so and so' animals some of you hate so much... and when I look at how beautiful it is I guess I can see why some people are so jealous.. an no Im not interested in some argument so dont even bother... have a nice day



Hey there Colin,

This is interesting that they are DNA tested to prove their provenance, I always thought that all M.spilota were identical on a DNA level with the only real difference being the colour, pattern and size depending on locale. I thought this was the main reason that a great deal of people hate the fact that they are split?

Maybe someone that is right up on the science of this can let me know if I am wrong or right on this one?


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## BROWNS (Dec 4, 2009)

I agree and don't think they can tell a jag apart from a coastal or jungle etc and can be found out by dna testing as all morelia spilota and sub species are the same.Just a good way of making out they aren't what most of us know they are.Colin is also correct about the first jag which if you follow things on Morela Pythons.com explains a lot about jags.

I am of the understanding the jags have been in Oz for many years now and the ones advertised recently were crossed with md's and jungles and you can see the influence in many of the animals advertised.Remember jags are not all created equal and as I mentioned earlier we usually only see the nicest examples and the average looking jags don't get shown and again with all the crossbreeding is how they produce some of the exceptional looking jags but if they have neuro problems no matter how nice they are I wouldn't want one nor should anyone else as it then introduces the neuro problems into the hobby which I'm sure nobody wants to have happen albeit too late as they're here and being bred by more than just one person or reptile breeders.


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## solar 17 (Dec 4, 2009)

*Simple*

*Simple solution ; if you don't like em, don't buy em, move on .......solar 17 [Baden]*


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## kupper (Dec 4, 2009)

Couldn't have said it better baden


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## Sturdy (Dec 4, 2009)

I dont think SXR would sell an animal with the risk of having Nuro problems.... 
that would be stupid for business.....


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## bensen (Dec 4, 2009)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> Hey there Colin,
> 
> This is interesting that they are DNA tested to prove their provenance, I always thought that all M.spilota were identical on a DNA level with the only real difference being the colour, pattern and size depending on locale. I thought this was the main reason that a great deal of people hate the fact that they are split?
> 
> Maybe someone that is right up on the science of this can let me know if I am wrong or right on this one?


 
i think that's right CJ, which makes it even more suss when claims about "DNA proof" go into the marketing campaign. if you had produced them why do you need DNA proof before you sell any if it was available anyway? did we get "DNA proof" with albino Darwins, why prepare it now?

that's like a well known GTP "breeder" sending newspapers OS to have photos of hatchies taken with just to "prove" he bred some showing an aussie newspaper underneath. you only have an alibi prepared if you know things aren't kosher.

i'd just be happy for people to call them jags and stop all the beating about the bush. everyone knows where they came from, and like gtp's customs, aqis, DECC and every other wildlife authority have turned a blind eye to it. so why continue with this RPM rubbish? buy a jag if you want one, don't buy one if you don't.


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## BROWNS (Dec 4, 2009)

I like them no doubts about that,how couldn't you with stunning animals like the ones posted and the jigsaw jungle jag etc that there was a thread about recently and take a look on moreliapythons.com in the morphs section.Funny thing is I can't recall seeing a jag posted on there that wasn't a hot looking animal.

With the amount of quality animals being bred in Oz now there are several lines of genetically proven animal and am sure someone will eventually produce animals very similar to jags with the same mode of inheritence.Also this is the first time I've heard that all jags are affected neurologically in some way and had always thought only some jags,not all have neuro problems and that's coming from someone experienced with jags,it's a shame,I'd love to see a leucistic carpet,all white with blue eyes would look awesome.

As Solar said if you don't like them don't buy them, however it is a relevant topic as the introduction of these animals into our herp scene has the potential of possibly messing up many animals and bloodlines if they get crossed with all sorts of morelia.I bet someone has tried producing jagondros etc encouraging hybridising,just a thought!

On another note I would love to see albino bhp's here in Oz,they're a gorgeous looking python and having axanthics here already we would be seeing snow bhp's yet still remaining pure animals.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 4, 2009)

Whats gunna happen when someone's jag escapes and starts spreading all those wonderfull neuro issues through our wild populations? Being native to our country it will happen eventually...


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## Sturdy (Dec 4, 2009)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> Whats gunna happen when someone's jag escapes and starts spreading all those wonderfull neuro issues through our wild populations? Being native to our country it will happen eventually...



That would be a slim chance... Captive animals dont have the antibodies to deal with the parasite load that would come with living in the bush... plus if its so called neuro problems are so hectic as everyone keeps flogging a dead horse about.. then i dont see them last long at all.


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## kidsheart (Dec 4, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> I like them no doubts about that,how couldn't you with stunning animals like the ones posted and the jigsaw jungle jag etc that there was a thread about recently and take a look on moreliapythons.com in the morphs section.Funny thing is I can't recall seeing a jag posted on there that wasn't a hot looking animal.
> 
> With the amount of quality animals being bred in Oz now there are several lines of genetically proven animal and am sure someone will eventually produce animals very similar to jags with the same mode of inheritence.Also this is the first time I've heard that all jags are affected neurologically in some way and had always thought only some jags,not all have neuro problems and that's coming from someone experienced with jags,it's a shame,I'd love to see a leucistic carpet,all white with blue eyes would look awesome.
> 
> ...


 
browns, i dont think we have to worry TOO much about all the lines getting muddied. yes there is a risk that alot of them will. But threads like this have proven that there are alot of australian breaders that care too much about purity in species to cross breed. i think down the track if things get bad, it may be necessary to buy from a reputable breeder to ensure you are getting a pure jungle, coastal or whatever.
also, does it really matter if a coastal was once bred to a md or a diamond 10 gens ago? i personally would still call it a pure coastal. afterall, surely there must be a large population of the coastals and diamonds that are intergrades and thought to be pure in the hobby?


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## BROWNS (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes but there's a difference between naturally occuring intergrades and breeding a coastal with a diamond,one is natural the other a deliberate cross of 2 differing sub species.Port Mac intergrades etc aren't the only intergrades there's jungle coastal intergrades,stimsons maculosa intergrades and many more but when the term intergrade is mentioned most times it's the nnaturally occuring port mac,Kempsey etc intergrades.I don't agree with what you say with a coastal being bred to a diamond 10 generations ago the end result will not be pure coastals,they would still have diamond influence!


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## kidsheart (Dec 4, 2009)

surely itd be worse lieing and getting sprung.
im still not so sure they are jags but iguess only time will tell

im curious. if someone was to just come straight out with a jag, could the authorities do anything about it? i mean can they dna test to prove whether a coastal is native to australia or not? and if they cant, how can they say for sure that its an import (even though obviously it would be). yes the gene is incredibly rare ive heard, but is it impossible that two normal coastals bred together here in australia could produce the same jag mutation? maybe one in a million, but not impossible?
i guess the same thing happened with native and non native gtp's ?
personally i think, jags are here, to stay. the only question is how openly they're produced and sold in the future,

and browns, yeah i agree with what your saying.


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## Cheyne_Jones (Dec 4, 2009)

Sturdy said:


> That would be a slim chance... Captive animals dont have the antibodies to deal with the parasite load that would come with living in the bush... plus if its so called neuro problems are so hectic as everyone keeps flogging a dead horse about.. then i dont see them last long at all.



The way I see it, if corn snakes can make a go of it here in the wild why cant a Jag? You cant guarantee every escapee will die! 

These are the reasons we have rules to abide by as citizens and members of a hobby, if a few choose not to follow the rules who knows what the outcome will be until it happens...

No use turning around in 5 generations and saying wish they hadn't have done that...


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## Helikaon (Dec 4, 2009)

anyone have a link for the pics of these reduced patterns?


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## Sturdy (Dec 4, 2009)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> The way I see it, if corn snakes can make a go of it here in the wild why cant a Jag? You cant guarantee every escapee will die!
> 
> These are the reasons we have rules to abide by as citizens and members of a hobby, if a few choose not to follow the rules who knows what the outcome will be until it happens...
> 
> No use turning around in 5 generations and saying wish they hadn't have done that...



Other than rumours of corn snake populations in AUS, what evidence do you have that support this theory, Also do you know of the % of recently released exotics onto australian soil to make the assumption of a stable population to occur.


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## JasonL (Dec 4, 2009)

All the other feral animals that call Australia home?


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## ShnakeyGirl (Dec 4, 2009)

Sturdy said:


> Other than rumours of corn snake populations in AUS, what evidence do you have that support this theory, Also do you know of the % of recently released exotics onto australian soil to make the assumption of a stable population to occur.


 

Hi Sturdy, if you go to the NSW Parks and Wildlife Service page and search for Corn Snakes, it actually returns that there have been two instances where Corn Snakes have been found in and around the Gosford area on the Central Coast. While this doesn't constitute a wild population, perhaps they are surviving in the wild after all. 

Though, due to the area, maybe they did a runner from the Reptile Park


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## BROWNS (Dec 4, 2009)

They aren't rumours,it's been mentioned by relocaers many many times in Sydney from memory?It does happen and there'd be quite a few people who've had herps escape who's to say if a jag escaped at the right time of year for breeding,it could happen however it should eventually be bred out or corrected by nature in time.There are places like Florida that have many established exotics in the wild.Guam with bts,we also have populations of red eared sliders so as said it does happen.


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## JasonL (Dec 4, 2009)

I hear of corn rescues all the time, last one was a few days back, and they seem to have a great habit of eating peoples pet birds... only a matter of time before someone finds a baby one, at the moment they are all probably escaped adults, but snakes being snakes.......will find each other one day, if not already...


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## pythons73 (Dec 4, 2009)

Cheyne_Jones said:


> Whats gunna happen when someone's jag escapes and starts spreading all those wonderfull neuro issues through our wild populations? Being native to our country it will happen eventually...[/QUOTE Whats the difference with a Jag escaping than a Murray Darling escaping into bush in say Sydney,either way there not in there locale area.The simple answer is to have enclosures that they cant escape.Simple...With all the line breeding here in Aus and some quality animals that have already been produced,there will be alot more good looking animals around,i would love a pair of those that SXR have,there absolutely stunning.The big picture is if you dont like them,Dont buy them...Everyone cant like the same colours-patterns etc.Just with pairing up the right animals anyone can produce some stunners,not as good as those jags...mark


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## JasonL (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes Mark, there is really little difference in the big scheme of things, thats why personally I think Tasmania has the best wildlife keeping laws, just not the best wildlife reptile wise ..


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## Southside Morelia (Dec 4, 2009)

I think their hot and would like to own some one day myself, but NOT at that price, lol....but what I am disappointed about is I own beautiful PURE RP animals cheynei & mcdowelli and when the time comes to sell the "hot" animals, i will have to prove the lineage and be ridiculed by the misinformed which will be inevitable I predict...which is a shame!
I'm sure that the very well respected breeders that have sold me the original stock, who too, are working on these lines will be disappointed as well and they are the ones that have been working on developing these lines for many years.
That's life I guess...IMO these PURE animals should be worth alot more than the X's... and as said we will produce equal or better over time. :|


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 4, 2009)

Southside Morelia said:


> I think their hot and would like to own some one day myself, but NOT at that price, lol....but what I am disappointed about is I own beautiful PURE RP animals cheynei & mcdowelli and when the time comes to sell the "hot" animals, i will have to prove the lineage and be ridiculed by the misinformed which will be inevitable I predict...which is a shame!
> I'm sure that the very well respected breeders that have sold me the original stock, who too, are working on these lines will be disappointed as well and they are the ones that have been working on developing these lines for many years.
> That's life I guess...IMO these PURE animals should be worth alot more than the X's... and as said we will produce equal or better over time. :|


 
Have to agree mate, same situation here. I have seen name dropping aplenty on who has pure lines and my animals have come from 3 of them. Sadly, I am certain I will hear all this crap again once I release some to the community. Worst part is, my coastals look just like the ones that folks here have been moaning about for the last couple of weeks. Oh well, next season's problem for me!


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## pythons73 (Dec 4, 2009)

From the last few years ive seen some really nice looking Coastals,Prossies etc,so with some good breeding with some of these magnificent animals im certain there will be some nice looking ones around sooner, rather than later.Theres a few nice RD pattern snakes around,so with some breeding there will be some stunners for sure....MARK


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## BROWNS (Dec 4, 2009)

If people like myself and others that just posted saying they have pure animals that may get questioned as to their purity,the people who know their carpets well can pretty well almost take a hypothetical guess or give an opinion on snakes similar to these expensive animals and say they aqre genuinely pure.I live where the Prosrpine carpets first came from,actually 2 minutes away and have seen some of the most spectacular jag like carpets.2 nights ago I was about to take a pic of an awesome looking carpet but it boltedd and didn't get a pic to show everyone.We've all seen some Atherton lines that have been mistaken as jags but were pure Athertons,all you need is a spectacular carpet with an inherited gene and that would consistantly produce amazing animals which I know quite a few people are working on improving animals like this.When they get bred and it's time to sell some offspring as we can't keep them all no matter how much you'd like to but animals as nice or nicer than the ones mainly mentioned in this thread will be recognised by people familiar with them.I can spot a Prossy a mile away but that's because I've lived here for most of my life.Look at Pikes"Mike Moores" Athertons,they're pure animals and look as good and better than most of the rpm animals.So when people who have spent years developing and improving lines like this many will recognise them for what they are plus minus the neuro problems which seems to not be an issue for people wanting jags.

At the end of the day they're here so now how do we go about the ridiculous prices they fetch? Being that only a few people actually have these rpm jags cornering the market till they're everywhere being a co dominat trait and will become as common as garden skinks and people will be chasing pure animals which look just as good which will possibly affect the prices these others are being sold for.It's obvious there's jungle influence in some but why don't they look as good as the jungle jags overseas?It's because only a few come out as lovely bright wild patterned animals and the rest aren't much chop at all.It would make sense that people with these animals would obviously keep the outstanding specimens and flog off the rest for a good profit!

So who would like to own one of these even when they've been selectively bred for a few years producing animals that are simply amazing to look at however they have the drawback of having neuro problems,will looks outweigh animals that don't quite act as most normal carpets and are willing to sacrifice having neurological problems to own a pretty python?????????????


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## mungus (Dec 5, 2009)

BROWNS said:


> So Colin you would be happy to get one of those at those prices even though they have neuro problems just because they look nice?No doubt there's some amazing looking jags but would you be willing to take them in with neuro problems then breed them which would include putting them across all types of morekia to find out which combination looks the best then happily sell them into the hobby knowing they had neurological problems?.Some of the SXR ones may have been coastals but wouldn't be a predictable line however there were many there that screamed jag!People will start crossing them with everything trying to get stronger animals so eventually they successfully get leucistics and many wwould also be trying that which will completely muddle everything up with siblings etc and in time noone will know what they have and.
> 
> If they looked like the pictures I've posted which I hope is okay with the person who sent them to me along with no neuro problems I'd love some and with animals like these why wouldn't you?I believe we'll be producing pyre Aussie animals just as good as jags with predictable percentages being jags.



They are Awesome Mate !!!


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## BROWNS (Dec 5, 2009)

Yeah they look spectacular however if it is in fact true all jags are affected to some degree with neurological problems which would be nice to hear peoples opinions on this from breeders overseas who know them better than we do?

So would you be happy to purchase,own,breed and sell the offspring of animals like those with problems that may or will get into our own collections of stunning animals and breed them with a stunning pure Aussie bred animal inheriting the neuro problems and so on?A lot of people are mentioning mainly one breeder as the first to come out in the open with some of these "animals" yet these animals have been in the country for some time and there's definitely more than just one person with them so when discussing these animals I'm talking about all or anyone else that have acquired these type of animals,they had to come out in the open sooner or later.I would love to have an animal like some of the best we've seen but now after learning apparently all of these types don't act like normal carpets which would obviously be caused by the gene that has mutated to produce these rpm's,jags,trick carpets etc etc the potential for damaging this hobby is not looking so good!


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## WombleHerp (Dec 5, 2009)

ok...
So I know there has been something going on with the whole "neuro probs" issue since the hype on Jags showed its face.. But I have never actually looked into it, as to, how it is caused, why it is caused, how big of an issue it really is (without blowing everything all out of proportion!), and is there a way of breeding around this issue, while still getting the same amazingly patterned animals?
Am genuinely interested in the facts of the matter!

(+1 Jag fan)

Natalie


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## ihaveherps (Dec 5, 2009)

herpsrule.... it seems the consensus is that all jags are affected by the neurological condition, just the extent varies. It seems to range from crockscrewing at the extreme end of the scale to a twitch in others, some display the tick in every day life, and others only occasionally when stimulated, by handling or feed response excitement...


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## chilli (Dec 5, 2009)

ihaveherps said:


> herpsrule.... it seems the consensus is that all jags are affected by the neurological condition



that's the consensus of people who hate jags and have never kept them.


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## WombleHerp (Dec 5, 2009)

chilli said:


> that's the consensus of people who hate jags and have never kept them.



This is what I mean, are there any studies or anything of the like on the actual cause of neurological problems that may or may not occur in Jags, and/or other species/morphs of python (mainly morelia in this case) simply due to breeding?? :|


Natalie


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## tomcat88 (Dec 5, 2009)

chilli said:


> that's the consensus of people who hate jags and have never kept them.


 

so you own jags and can tell us all that they dont have any neuro problems... very interesting. maybe its the consensus of the informed and educated????

edit: not implying ihaveherps has jags implying he might have done a bit of actual research


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## chilli (Dec 5, 2009)

tomcat88 said:


> so you own jags and can tell us all that they dont have any neuro problems... very interesting. maybe its the consensus of the informed and educated????



no mate they interest me less and less now, but you only need to search OS forums, and there are thousands of keepers and the only references to neurological problems, are people who don't have them posting "i've heard all jags have neuro problems, is that right?"

why don't you contact people who keep them instead of creating some "knowledge" about their 'problems'.

it is highly unlikely that some large breeders OS have hundreds of cork-screwing snakes, and continue to breed them. at least any snake doing that is likely to be euthanased, and not sold.

i think this whole problem scenario is being played up by those pressing their own agenda fuelled mainly by their fear that their snakes would become obselete in the supply versus demand market.

oh, and ironically, mr cat, your sarcasm regarding the educated is indeed humourous, as you have repeatedly claimed that the first jags were coastal cross IJ's. a little research would convince you that jan eric engell was the breeder and produced and named the first jaguar from two coastals. www.jaguarpython.dk


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## tomcat88 (Dec 5, 2009)

there is a neuro issue that seems to crop up in relation to jags, but i agree that it is most likely blown way out of proportion. time will tell i suppose, would be interesting to see if it is jag related or simply americans imbreeding to the point of creating problems.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 5, 2009)

Not so sure it is blown out of all proportion or maybe it is? Maybe the jag x jag outcome is also blown out of proportion too? :lol:


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## ihaveherps (Dec 5, 2009)

chilli said:


> no mate they interest me less and less now, but you only need to search OS forums, and there are thousands of keepers and the only references to neurological problems, are people who don't have them posting "i've heard all jags have neuro problems, is that right?"
> 
> why don't you contact people who keep them instead of creating some "knowledge" about their 'problems'.
> 
> ...



Whatever.... Chilli, I suggest you look further into the international keeping. Jag neuro conditions for a long time were hush/taboo to talk about, and the most vehement debate counter to the existence were those heavily invested in the Jag market, though now after a few keepers bought the tick into the light they are now commonly thrown into the same basket as Spider Balls, another morph known for neuro conditions. I was fair, covering the full spectrum when explaining to herpsrule, and honestly breed bugger all animals, even though I own what some consider to be a largish collection. To dispell the existance of of this condition is ludicrous, there is a myriad of youtube vids out there that display from minimal to extreme cases of neuro in Jags, they commonly have issues staying still when supporting their own weight, when say they extend their torso (for lack of a better word) from a perch, they seem to sway slightly. I dont really care what people choose to keep, if Jags are their thing, so be it, but to totally dispell the fact that all Jags display some neuro issues to however minute a scale is is rediculous, I was just honestly representing the full spectrum.


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## Kris (Dec 5, 2009)

I've heard people shrug off the need to quarantine new animals, or follow strict hygeine practices after having handled animals from other collections in much the same way as this. "Oh surely it's blown out of proportion, just scare tactics, blah blah blah". It often ends just as badly as the assumption that jag breeders couldn't possibly continue to breed and sell their animals despite the frequency of neurological issues. As it's already been said, not all jags corkscrew, not all die, some simply have infrequent ticking. Neuro problems that involve only sporadic, relatively harmless looking symptoms are still neuro problems. Certainly, some jag x jags dropping dead is well documented enough. That to me is reason enough to think the jag gene is a faulty one. If you couldn't breed your Taipan with another Taipan as it would result in death that would be considered an issue. But because these are "pretty" and fetch a good price let's just pretend that it's okay.


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## kidsheart (Dec 5, 2009)

i love and have been super interested in jags for many years now.
BUT everything i have read points to the conclusion that all jags do suffer neuro problems, supposedly brought on by stress. are they always noticeably? hardly. sometimes they are pretty extreme, sometimes they seem to have almost no issue at all, but from what i have read in numerous articles, it is always present, and always will be in jags.

as for ppl selling and keeping snakes with such issues. i personally dont have any issue with it besides the threat of it spreading into other species through cross breeding. 
would i keep an animal, such as a jag, knowing it has neuro probs..... definatly.
would i sell a similar animal? why not, provided the buyer is completely aware....

however i think the issue that everyone is most concerned about is the neuro problems being bred into other species and then being sold off as "pure jungles, bredlies etc etc". and the probs spreading on from there. which is a fair enough argument.


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## BROWNS (Dec 6, 2009)

Makes you wonder if the people who have them and purchased enormously priced reasonably average looking animals especially in comparison to some of the awesome ones posted lately and if they knew about these neuro problems?We know they will be crossed with everything so there is a huge risk to the snake hobby in Australia.I follow what goes on overseas but not everything and this is the first time I've heard ALL jags are affected in some way from a twitch to spasmodic convulsions and that's hardly something I'd like to see come into the hobby.So again I wonder if people with these knew all jags are affected not just some as I myself thought was the case....?????????????????????????


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## Jason (Dec 6, 2009)

i dont think the nuero issue is one to be ignored but lets be honest... the pedigree market in dogs is MUCH worse... the problems being bred in some dogs is much greater then this will ever be. unfortunetely i see these things as one of the costs of selective breeding... eventually alot of animals wil become problematic in the future. yes snakes are being bred to siblings etc... but how long before we see probs in alot of pure animals.... it took hundreds of year before the signs were seen in dogs.. maybe in a couple hundred years we will see lots of issues in snakes aswell?


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## Jeremy Kriske (Dec 12, 2009)

> no mate they interest me less and less now, but you only need to search OS forums, and there are thousands of keepers and the only references to neurological problems, are people who don't have them posting "i've heard all jags have neuro problems, is that right?"


Chili,
I suggest checking out the OS forums more. Many of the most prolific keepers and breeders of jags have expressed feelings similar to the effect that all jags have some sort of neuro issue, to some degree. Many do not show signs for years, some show them out of the egg. 

It is for the most part a non issue. The neuro issue is tied directly to the jag gene, *meaning the non-jag siblings do not have it. *It cannot contaminate any other species. If you don't buy a jag, you have *zero* chance of getting the jaguar neurological issue into your collection. Period. 

No worries!


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