# The appeal of venom ??



## Dutchy88 (Jan 22, 2013)

Just out of curiousity whats the appeal of owning venomous snakes? I've only been in the game a few years so maybe it hasn't click in me yet. But why would I want to house something that could kill me? I can't really interact with and just watch through the glass rather then have them sit on my shoulder or crawl around my arms. Like to hear from all the venomous keepers on the issue


----------



## sd1981 (Jan 22, 2013)

I've been in the game for about 18 years and I'm still not fazed by vens... Don't get me wrong, there's some amazing looking elapids out there, but nothing I want to take home with me... I suppose that's what makes everyone unique, what gives me a twitch, doesn't necessarily do it for you.... I'd like to hear from some keepers of vens too, how often do they interact with their snakes, do they strictly hook and tail or is there a little free handling etc? How do you go about not getting complacent etc? Close calls, bites, escapee's... Don't mean to hijack your thread, just interested....


----------



## Variety (Jan 22, 2013)

When i first started keeping pythons i could never imagine myself getting involved with colubrids or vens and could'nt understand for the life of me why anyone would want to.. but im now looking into getting some GTS'. I think appreciation of the snake would have to be the #1 reason for buying a ven, being content with watching through the glass and observing the snake for what it is.


----------



## jedi_339 (Jan 22, 2013)

Some people do get complacent sd1981. Someone very recently got bitten by their inland after free handling it, or so I'm led to believe. 

Different strokes for different folks really.

I will say this though, I'm sure some people who keep them probably shouldn't, but the same goes for any animals.


----------



## Skitzmixer (Jan 22, 2013)

I personally would love to sit back and watch a colourful red belly black snake, i think they're such an amazing animal.


----------



## fantapants (Jan 22, 2013)

No recorded deaths from RBB,s their venom is quite low in toxicity compared to other Aussie elapids...


----------



## Skitzmixer (Jan 22, 2013)

fantapants said:


> No recorded deaths from RBB,s their venom is quite low in toxicity compared to other Aussie elapids...


oh now thats something i didnt know. I have to admit i havent really done any research into it, i dont really want to either because no doubt ill be on the hunt for one soon enough. Good thing to know though.


----------



## outbackstorm (Jan 22, 2013)

I guess a lot of it comes down to personal preference, I have always been more interested in Elapids and Colubrids. In terms of the getting out and sitting on the shoulder, I prefer to just sit back and watch my fish, they don't like it much when I put them on my shoulder either lol


----------



## cadwallader (Jan 22, 2013)

i think for me it brings a new form of respect, really I'm more scared of a large cranky lacey then i am of most venomous snakes.


----------



## thals (Jan 22, 2013)

Just like owning fish or spiders really, the appeal is with the individual keeping them. I know for me it's a combination of both fascination and passion, vens behave differently from your average python. Highly alert and a whole lot more active, they make for very interesting captives to observe. Treat them with respect and a lack of complacency and you'll have very few dramas with them.


----------



## Burnerism (Jan 22, 2013)

You don't have to grab and hold everything. Alot of the beauty of animals is just sitting back and watching them do their own thing be it a snake a fish a bird or what ever. I love lions but feel no urdge to jump the fence at the zoo and start getting piggy back rides from it lol. I don't mind handling my snakes and lizards every now and again but I get as much enjoyment just watching them crawl around a display enclosure. Maybe in time ill own some vens but just because their poisioness will have no bearing on my decision, it'll be because their some beautiful snakes. Red belly, yellow tigers and especially the collets, all stunning looking animals. Each to their own, some people like dogs, some cats, some birds others reptiles the list goes on.


----------



## Snapped (Jan 22, 2013)

I was interested to hear peoples reply as well. I'm also new to reptiles, and while I love the look of the RBB, I don't think I could keep anything that could kill me (Brown, Inland etc)....do you triple lock their enclosures or something? LOL I'd be paranoid that they could escape.


----------



## Chris101 (Jan 22, 2013)

I recently caught the ven bug. I only have a red belly at the moment, but when i return from an overseas trip, i'll be looking to 'upgrade' to a tiger snake.

As has been mentioned, they are so more alert to their surroundings, constantly roaming around their enclosure. And in my case, I do take the RBB out and handle him. Much more exciting than any python IMO.


----------



## Burnerism (Jan 22, 2013)

My dream is to actually own a saltie one day. In the next couple of years ill start off with a freshy in a 10ft tank but as the whole could kill you thing goes, so could a car. You could be walking down the street and get collected or could be driving to work and crash. You just have to learn to asses your risks, there's no point living your life inside a bubble.


----------



## junglepython2 (Jan 22, 2013)

Keeping snakes isn't all about handling and harrassing the animals. I interact with my vens probably even more so then my pythons and as a whole they are a lot more interesting. But then I don't get my kicks out of cuddling and holding my snakes like they are puppies.


----------



## saximus (Jan 22, 2013)

Snapped said:


> I was interested to hear peoples reply as well. I'm also new to reptiles, and while I love the look of the RBB, I don't think I could keep anything that could kill me (Brown, Inland etc)....do you triple lock their enclosures or something? LOL I'd be paranoid that they could escape.



As per licence conditions, they need to be in an enclosure that can be locked with a key. By the time you get to owning vens you should also be past the escapee point. It's very easy to build/design enclosures that are escape proof.


----------



## Snapped (Jan 22, 2013)

saximus said:


> As per licence conditions, they need to be in an enclosure that can be locked with a key. By the time you get to owning vens you should also be past the escapee point. It's very easy to build/design enclosures that are escape proof.



Ah, thanks. I guess I don't have much faith in those glass sliding locks (well, not the one I have LOL).


----------



## sd1981 (Jan 22, 2013)

cadwallader said:


> i think for me it brings a new form of respect, really I'm more scared of a large cranky lacey then i am of most venomous snakes.



Very interesting quote for me, as I keep lacies, and although I'm not scared of them, I have enough constant "excitement" (aka respect) over the possibility of having a love bite that I don't get complacent, and have the huge amount of respect that one should have when dealing with a natural predator... Yet, the thought of an eastern brown or an inland taipan, frankly, makes me need to check to ensure I haven't messed up my shorts ( in a bad way )...
I suppose I'll have to make mates with an elapid keeper and get a bit more insight into Australia's deadliest....


----------



## TheJoyces (Jan 22, 2013)

Dutchy88 said:


> Just out of curiousity whats the appeal of owning venomous snakes? I've only been in the game a few years so maybe it hasn't click in me yet. But why would I want to house something that could kill me? I can't really interact with and just watch through the glass rather then have them sit on my shoulder or crawl around my arms. Like to hear from all the venomous keepers on the issue




I don't think it's about the level of interaction, as many people own fish and you can't exactly sit them on your lap and have a good ol pat. You do however get to enjoy a usually very colourful and soothing creature move around a safe enclosure you have made yourself. I think you have a healthy respect owning an animal that you know could cause you harm. If you look after it, and follow what you are meant to then something like that won't happen. IMO I don't see the difference in housing those where you can see them, and owning a 2 Tonne bull that can just turn on you in split second. (Growing up on farms that does happen) To each their own


----------



## mcbuggsy (Jan 22, 2013)

I think the most amazing thing about elapids is when they are active and you are watching them....you can see intelligence in their eyes. They are extremely alert and aware of you and your movements. They watch you like a hawk and you can see the wheels turning inside their head...
Whereas watching a python (of which I admit I have lots and lots of) looks like watching some stoner dude or a drunk lying on a bench at the local park....not much going on up top....


----------



## sd1981 (Jan 22, 2013)

mcbuggsy said:


> I think the most amazing thing about elapids is when they are active and you are watching them....you can see intelligence in their eyes. They are extremely alert and aware of you and your movements. They watch you like a hawk and you can see the wheels turning inside their head...
> Whereas watching a python (of which I admit I have lots and lots of) looks like watching some stoner dude or a drunk lying on a bench at the local park....not much going on up top....


That what I get when dealing with my Lacie, one of the reasons that I got out of pythons and into monitors 10 years ago, The pythons just sat there most of the time, didn't do much, yeah you can handle them but their intelligence only seemed to show at time of feeding... 
Very interesting thread with heaps of good opinions, scary really as the points raised as to why people keep vens is basically what was missing from my python keeping days.....apart from the burn of venom that is!!!!


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jan 22, 2013)

I can only agree. A warm Yellow-faced Whip is a pain in the butt to try to handle. But watch one in full flight in a pit and the speed, grace and agility is something to behold. Like RBBs, copperheads are magic snakes to keep and watch, but not one I handled any more than necessary, even though they are not hard to work with. 

I am not sure whether it is complacency or plain stupidity that results in some ven keepers being bitten. A mate of mine has been keeping and breeding Death Adders for over 20 years. The young ones are often difficult to get eating and invariably require some measure of assist feeding. Yet he has never been bitten. Bites result from carelessness or poor judgement and if you are keeping dangerously venomous snakes, there is no room for either.

There is one and possibly three deaths involving bites from a RBB. Two were before accurate records were kept and the third was a juvenile who may have developed a secondary reaction. I certainly would not be complacent if bitten. They are, however, probably the most placid of the large elapids and the least likely to bite.

Blue


----------



## imported_Varanus (Jan 22, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> There is one and possibly three deaths involving bites from a RBB. Two were before accurate records were kept and the third was a juvenile who may have developed a secondary reaction.
> Blue



Thanks Blue! Always interesting posts that I learn something from, I wasn't aware of any fatalities from RBB bites. (not something I really research, however...touch wood, touch wood).


----------



## spinner_collis (Jan 22, 2013)

fantapants said:


> No recorded deaths from RBB,s their venom is quite low in toxicity compared to other Aussie elapids...



Though you could loose a finger or two due to the narcrosis!


----------



## princessparrot (Jan 22, 2013)

idk, i know i like reading about them and stuff cause they are deadly and dangerous, but im no sure id want to keep one!


----------



## eipper (Jan 22, 2013)

Blue,

where are you getting your fatality information on porphyriacus? Can you please supply references.

Cheers
scott


----------



## Bananapeel (Jan 22, 2013)

I would love to own a rbb and a copperhead, simply because I have so much respect for them. Plus they make for fabulous and very intriguing pets, if thorough care is taken. However, vens are not to be taken lightly and they require a secure cage and an owner who wants only the best for their snake and themselves. After that they become a great animal to own, full of their own perks and most of them are real lookers!
just IMO guys.


----------



## baker (Jan 22, 2013)

For me the appeal of keeping venomous snakes is simply I find them a lot more interesting than pythons. They are a lot more alert and active of animals than what pythons are. As long as you never get complacent and always treat these snakes with the respect they deserve you should never have a problem with keeping these animals. The only thing that is changes when you are keeping a venomous snake compared to a python is handling technique and how often handling happens. I only handle my elapid when I have to cage maintenance and all I do for this is hook and tail him out of his enclosure and put him in a holding bin. Once I finish I just simply transfer him from the bin back to the enclosure and that is all the handling. 
Cheers Cameron


----------



## crocodile_dan (Jan 22, 2013)

I don't keep elapids yet but have some short experience with them, and once I have stopped moving around I will definitely branch off into the elapid side of the hobby. 

But as far as the safety side of management of any potentially dangerous species goes you should always have an "emergency protocol" for any time that an accident does occur, and simply hope that you never have to use it. There are too many factors that we can do our best to prevent but at the end of the day accidents do occur. It's much better to be prepared for a "worst-case scenario" and never have to use it than become faced with a situation that you aren't prepared for. 

Hypothetically what would you do if the enclosure is compromised (glass door breaks etc)? What would you do if it happens at night? What would you do if you are only wearing underwear etc? What would you do if the power is out when it happens?... there are far too many variables that could possibly create a snowball effect. I'm not sure if this thought process is common amongst elapid keepers but it is something I personally will aim to at least have some plan to act once I do start to keep such species. Just my opinion.


----------



## moosenoose (Jan 22, 2013)

fantapants said:


> No recorded deaths from RBB,s their venom is quite low in toxicity compared to other Aussie elapids...



No recorded deaths might be true, but loss of digits (fingers in particular is a real issue with black snakes)

On the ven front. I find that most captives settle down to be pretty docile. My male red belly doesn't particularly like me, as much as I've tried to settle him down. 

Tiger snakes, if you spend the time with them, make really well balanced captives. But admittedly they aren't for everyone.

Who said you can't give em a little tickle? :lol: Tiger by the tail anyone? :lol:


----------



## RedFox (Jan 22, 2013)

In a few years, I will have elapids and colubrids. I love my pythons but on my ultimate snake wishlist there are a lot more elapids than pythons. I guess it depends on what you want in a pet. I get a lot more pleasure watching my pythons move around their enclosures and "doing snake things" than actually handling them. 

I love making their enclosures and fulfilling their needs so colubrids and then elapids just seem like a natural progression. Plus it would be awesome to have something that is awake during the day as my python doesn't wake up until the evening.

We are so lucky to have such a variety of snakes in Australia.


----------



## fantapants (Jan 22, 2013)

fantapants said:


> No recorded deaths from RBB,s their venom is quite low in toxicity compared to other Aussie elapids...




Venomoose, this was in reference to a comment in a post "... a RB could kill me" which was later edited and removed

Losing your sense of smell/taste is also another interesting side effect of RBB bites for some


----------



## moosenoose (Jan 22, 2013)

No probs. I wasn't being picky or anything. Just thought I'd add to what you were saying


----------



## gold&black... (Jan 22, 2013)

What I wouldn't give to own a few scaleless adders... Really like them.


----------



## Yogi (Jan 22, 2013)

Hello all,

A RBBS has a recorded death it was a small child in the early days. (that snake could have been huge). But there venom is not designed to kill like a taipan or eastern brown instead your arm might root off (yes this might be a little to far) but you would be unwise to think they don't back a punch. They are the best looking snake no doubt and that will be my first Ben upon getting my reptile class 3 lic. Cheers Jacob


----------



## Stuart (Jan 22, 2013)

Yogi said:


> Hello all,
> 
> A RBBS has a recorded death it was a small child in the early days. (that snake could have been huge). But there venom is not designed to kill like a taipan or eastern brown instead your arm might root off (yes this might be a little to far) but you would be unwise to think they don't back a punch. They are the best looking snake no doubt and that will be my first Ben upon getting my reptile class 3 lic. Cheers Jacob



Hi Jacob,

Could you point us in the direction of any documented proof that it was the RBB venom that was the cause of death? I was under the understanding that death was caused by other issue but would be happy to be proven wrong if its the case. I would be interested to see any info on this instance if its available.

Cheers
S


----------



## Rob8290 (Jan 22, 2013)

One day I would love to have a RBB but I wouldn't handle it at all. That would create a problem as to how I would clean the enclosure


----------



## eipper (Jan 22, 2013)

Alright I will just come out and say it......there is no verified records of a fatality in _Pseudechis porphyriacus_ and I quote

"No documented Deaths have been caused by this snake; however, it could well prove lethal to a child."

pg 94, *Genus Pseudechis, 'Black Snakes'* in _Australian Animal Toxins-The creatures, their toxins and care of the poisoned patient_ by Struan Sutherland, 1983.

Since 1983, there have been no documented death(s) from this species either.

I find it frustrating with this seeming fixation of the potentially lethality, in some species. It is all Hypothetical on how _YOU_ will react to the toxin. There can be assumptions based on case histories, toxicology etc but there will be unknown parameters.

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## Bananapeel (Jan 22, 2013)

Plus 1^^^


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jan 22, 2013)

*Scott*, I will try and chase up the references again. Last time I tried, the article chronicling the death of a juvenile, could not be found. As I stated, there were complicating factors which made it difficult to determine if the venom alone was responsible for the death.

I understand your concerns with labelling venomous snakes as dangerous and not dangerous, because different individuals can develop and react hyper-sensitively to select proteins present in the venom. The basic protocol that should follow from this is to take any snakebite as potentially serious, apply first aid and get to medical assistance. However, the foregoing unusual reactions to snake venom do not impede the effects of the major toxins present in the venom of any given species. It is not inappropriate for people to predict the likely outcome of a snake bite based upon knowledge of the major toxins contained therein. 

*Crocodile_Dan*, you raised some good points. There are a few dos and don’ts to keeping vens. Probably first and foremost, if you are on your own then you should not be interacting with vens. At the very least you need a phone contact of someone nearby who can come to your assist at a moment’s notice, if required. Appropriately applied pressure bandage and immobilisation will buy you some time but you still need help to get to medical assistance. Whenever working with vens you need to be appropriately dressed. If you are feeding any animal after dark, it is common sense to have a working torch within reach. If you trip the power out or there is a suburban power outage, it could well mean the difference between losing a snake and getting it safely back in its cage. Simple commonsense stuff really. I did not address the issue of a cage being compromised because if it is correctly constructed, which is not difficult, it will never happen.

*Venomoose*, that is an awesome looking snake. Where did it originate from? I must admit, If I had to catch one, I would much rather tail a Tiger Snake than a Dugite any day. Despite their reputation for putting on a display, I have got to say that I find wild Tigers pretty laid back whereas Dugites are often anything but.

*Bananapeel*, love the attitude. Maintain it and you will make an excellent ven keeper should you decide to go that way in the future.

There are lots of lizards that do it for me too. The fact that given reptile I like happens to be venomous only affects the handling and not the appreciation.

Blue


----------



## eipper (Jan 22, 2013)

Mike,

There are anecdotal records of Fatalities/ fatalities are rare/ record of a fatal is dubious etc.....Its all semantics, if the record cannot verified then it is not a reliable record per se.

If it could been verfied I am sure it would of been included...

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## Yogi (Jan 22, 2013)

I was more stating that a RBBS is a snake with veno
That could be very bad for the victim of such a bite and yes that one case would be very hard to prove that it was the venom and only the venom that killed her. Further more the idea of free handling an elapids is just plain stupid. Would I free hand a great white or a box jelly because that is stupid. I will one day have my vens lic and they will be observered through the glass for the magniscant animals they are.
Cheers Jacob 
sorry no arguments intended


----------



## Bananapeel (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks blue, appreciate it. And completely agree with your last sentence.
I love pythons and vens just as much as one another purely because I believe each have there own perks. While pythons lack activity (often not always) they make up for it in handling (for those that want something they can handle). Vens on the other hand have the alert and active attitude and while usually lacking the ability to be handled IMO have the amazing potential to do some very serious damage and must be looked at with strong respect. I just think they're a very incredible animal and the fact that we are allowed to keep them is really not something to be taken for granted. As much as I love pythons, vens really are something special and I cannot wait to have the privilege to own them and educate others about them. Because a lot of people seriously need to lay down the shovels. :lol:

- - - Updated - - -



Yogi said:


> I was more stating that a RBBS is a snake with veno
> That could be very bad for the victim of such a bite and yes that one case would be very hard to prove that it was the venom and only the venom that killed her. Further more the idea of free handling an elapids is just plain stupid. Would I free hand a great white or a box jelly because that is stupid. I will one day have my vens lic and they will be observered through the glass for the magniscant animals they are.
> Cheers Jacob
> sorry no arguments intended



Not to burst your bubble or anything but handling a Great white and a box jelly is a bit different to handling an elapid. Well IMO anyway... Some people believe it's stupid (like you) whereas others (who hopefully know what they're doing and understand the animal) or just see no problem with it, don't care. Next time you make these comments I think you should include that it's your opinion (even though we know it is) because many are fine with it IF the people who do it aren't drunk or incapable show offs. You may also find that when you get into elapids you will learn a lot and may free handle yourself once you understand the animal. Just a possibility...
Anyway, sorry to get off topic and I don't mean to offend you yogi as in your own opinion your points are valid. Sorry if I sounded rude and accusing you. Many people believe similar to you.


----------



## Yogi (Jan 22, 2013)

No all good yes it's my opinion indeed. And I take a comments well that may be the appeal ( to the op) that they can handle compently hopefully a snake that can cause major problems if bitten. The appeal to me is always there character and awesome look. 
Cheers yogi

- - - Updated - - -

And hell yes about your last sentence spoken well to often they are killed just for being there good on you ( sorry back on topic)


----------



## RedFox (Jan 22, 2013)

Come on people aren't we all tired of the free handling arguments? Can't we all just say each to their own and let nature weed out the idiots, who don't know what they are doing?


----------



## MathewB (Jan 23, 2013)

crocodile_dan said:


> What would you do if it happens at night? What would you do if you are only wearing underwear etc? What would you do if the power is out when it happens?



Put on some pants, grab a torch and inform the ladies that there's more than one type of snake on the loose tonight.....Preferably, you'll put on sunglasses while saying that last line.

But yeah, RBBs are on the list.


----------



## Wing_Nut (Jan 23, 2013)

There are simply to many levels of fascination to possibly describe in words. The venomous snakes of Australia are simply amazing, and the only better place to see one than in high level of care most Elapid keepers, is roaming free in a pristine natural environment. I would certainly keep them should the opportunity arise and my knowledge base was sufficient to provide them with a safe and proper environment.


On a side note according to the Australian Venom research unit there have been no confirmed deaths caused by a red belly black snake. 

Regards 

Wing_Nut


----------



## Ryderthefrog (Jan 23, 2013)

I knew this guy that had a huge collection of vens and he amazingly handled them just as you would handle a python and just as frequently aswell. I was always shocked at him and not once (that I know of) had he been bitten. All were quite tame and friendly. 
But in my opinion why would you risk it?


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jan 23, 2013)

I am not an advocate of free handling. However, I have people that I know who make a living out of snakes and who free handle their animals. When asked about why they free handle this or that specimen, they replied in terms of the level of trust they have in a specific animal. Some they are prepared to reach into the bag blindly and take out without making eye contact. At the other extreme, some they watch for the full duration that they have them in their hands. Neither has received a serious bite from one of their captives. These are people who have observed their snakes over a long period. They have an established rapport resulting from an extensive background knowledge combined with many hours of critical observation of individual specimens. Their free handling is anything but slapdash.

It is not for me. I would not recommend it. The level of aware observation and the time required in interacting to achieve an acceptable level of safety with free handling is excessive to say the least. It is a bit like car racing – if you are good enough you might just get out of it alive.

Blue


----------



## Crotalid (Jan 23, 2013)

I couldn't care less about the fact all my snakes are venomous, i bought them purely for the fact i think venomous snakes are far more attractive than non venomous snakes. Not all venomous snakes though, as I'm not a fan of things like Kraits, Coral snakes etc. 

I've never felt the need to have a snake i can hold around my neck or walk around with etc, which is why i will never own a non venomous snake. For me, snakes don't want to interact with you in the slightest, they would rather be left alone. So owning venomous is perfect for what i like and how i see things.


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 23, 2013)

I think at the end of the day its very much a personal choice as to whether venomous snakes are for you. Keeping venomous snakes requires discipline, a very methodical way of working and a real love of your animals. Personally I would not want to take the risk as mistakes can and do happen, its the severity of these mistakes that would be a major concern for me. In a thread I started some time ago I stressed how important it was for me to handle the snakes I keep, this is simply something I would not do with venomous snakes. There is no denying the fact that the attractiveness of some venomous snakes is astounding but again the potential for harm for me outweighs there beauty.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who keeps venomous snakes properly, they are a special kind of person. Its really sad that occasionally we see the odd fruit loop doing untold damage to venomous snake keeping as a whole by being careless and taking silly macho risks on camera

Kindest regards

Endeavour


----------



## Crotalid (Jan 23, 2013)

That was meant to say, "far more attractive than non venomous" - I should really start reading what I write!


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jan 23, 2013)

Crotalid, at the very bottom of your posts, on the r/hand side, you will see “Edit Post” in front of the usual “Reply” and “Reply With Quote”. This allows you make corrections. It only remains active for a week or so (how long I am not sure) and then disappears. We knew what you meant anyway….

Blue


----------



## Crotalid (Jan 23, 2013)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Crotalid, at the very bottom of your posts, on the r/hand side, you will see “Edit Post” in front of the usual “Reply” and “Reply With Quote”. This allows you make corrections. It only remains active for a week or so (how long I am not sure) and then disappears. We knew what you meant anyway….
> 
> Blue



Ah whoops! Didn't think you could do it on the Tapatalk app, but it appears you can. Thanks


----------



## cement (Jan 28, 2013)

To those who want to get vens then I would suggest doing a ven husbandry course. What has been kicked around here should be noted but realise there is a hell of a lot more to it.
I for one would hate to get tagged by a large rbbs, and take them very seriously. There may be no deaths on record, but how does a kidney failure sound and a life of dialysis? I reckon that if you want to keep vens then research the venom of the species you want to keep, the known effects, and take a good hard look at the reasons why. 
Elapids are prone to defecate more then pythons so be aware there is a lot more hands on then you may think. They are messy buggers.


----------



## moosenoose (Jan 28, 2013)

My red belly black doesn't like me much. He's getting to about the 4ft mark (maybe bigger) and still carries on like a pork chop. I like to let him loose occasionally in the backyard for a bit of sun, but the bigger he gets the faster he moves :lol: Sun time is a fun time :lol: :lol:


----------



## $NaKe PiMp (Jan 29, 2013)

I Handle venomous snakes everyday,and i handle far more wild snakes than most people in my work, but plenty of captive ones too. I really enjoy my time with these amazing creatures and have a great life i share with them.
The other people i know who share a similar passion they too seem to have there lives enriched,if you like them maybe you should keep some, but only if your really interested, a passing interest is not enough in my opinion.
Probably the greatest thing ive been able to share through venomous snakes with the people i meet during snake jobs,or during wildlife presentations i do,or talks to community groups etc,is by making people more aware of snakes they are more likely to be aware of conservation,and if they conserve snakes then they are more likely to conserve all living creatures in our ecosystem.


----------



## Bananapeel (Jan 29, 2013)

Well said $NaKe PiMp.


----------



## snakeman478 (Jan 30, 2013)

Once you have owned vens you will never own a python again. Everything about them is better IMO


----------



## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

fantapants said:


> No recorded deaths from RBB,s their venom is quite low in toxicity compared to other Aussie elapids...




Is this correct? They are the 19th most venomous snake on earth. I think the lack of fatal bites is because of their placid nature, reluctancy to bite and the fact that they will often only dry bite with out injecting venom.


----------



## Pseudo (Jan 30, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> I think the lack of fatal bites is because of their placid nature, reluctancy to bite and the fact that they will often only dry bite with out injecting venom.



I think you need to have a bit more to do with red-bellies before you make that call.


----------



## Snowman (Jan 30, 2013)

I see it as a similar thing to electricity. It can kill you. But with a basic understanding and correct handling procedures the risks are dramatically reduced. 
Are we crazy for having 240v AC in our houses where a kid could stick something in a socket and die?


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Jan 30, 2013)

Coming from the words of late Graeme Gow, A decent bite from a red bellied may not kill you but you will feel so bloody sick you will wish that you did die.


----------



## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

Pseudo said:


> I think you need to have a bit more to do with red-bellies before you make that call.



I wouldn't say i'm making a call about all red bellies, obviously it comes down to the snake and all snakes have the potential to bite. Im just suggesting reasons other than their venom isn't very dangerous, because i don't believe that is true. In my experience and from talking to others who have a lot more experience than most people, Red Bellies do have a much calmer nature and usually prefer to escape the situation rather than stay and fight.


----------



## eipper (Jan 30, 2013)

It's hard to argue with the fact that porphyriacus are no where near the top 20 most toxic snakes in the world


----------



## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

They are 21 on the LD50 scale.


----------



## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

The majority of vens prefer to escape the situation which is why there are remarkably few bites from them and where there are bites it's usually an accident made by the human or an act of stupidity.
yes many people say that red bellies are quite a calm snake however I don't know a huge amount about vens but there are a few people with aggressive red bellies.


----------



## eipper (Jan 30, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> They are 21 on the LD50 scale.



Really.... which injection site, which study, what were the controls???....or are you copying the error of many and taking a list that was generated with 3 exotic snakes as Controls and applying that to all the worlds snakes.....let me guess Broad and Sutherland 1979. 

This tested the LD50 values of 20 Australian "species" and had 3 exotics (_Naja naja_, _Ophiophagus hannah_ and _Crotalus adamanteus_) as controls. This did not test literally hundreds of other species so to say its a list of the most toxic is crap.

BTW, the Ld 50 is not a scale its a result name. It is a figure reached by what amount of a substance is needed to kill 50 % of the test subjects. The lists are full or error and in all seriousness of little value. Toxins that have evolved in venom are designed to kill a prey item or defend against an enemy. Mice are similar to people as we are both mammals and we use this as an indicator of how toxic it _may_ be to Humans. Obviously venom designed to kill rodents eg _Oxyuranus_ is going to have a low Ld50 when tested on mice, while venom designed to kill lizards eg _Demansia_ may not appear as potent. Change the Ld50 subject and change the result.

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

eipper said:


> Really.... which injection site, which study, what were the controls???....or are you copying the error of many and taking a list that was generated with 3 exotic snakes as Controls and applying that to all the worlds snakes.....let me guess Broad and Sutherland 1979.
> 
> This tested the LD50 values of 20 Australian "species" and had 3 exotics (_Naja naja_, _Ophiophagus hannah_ and _Crotalus adamanteus_) as controls. This did not test literally hundreds of other species so to say its a list of the most toxic is crap.
> 
> ...




What is a better scale to use? I only use the information i have at hand, if there is a better source, i am more than happy to use it. Thanks


----------



## moosenoose (Jan 30, 2013)

There are quite a few lower rated LD50 snakes I'd hate to cop a whack off. Rattlesnakes aren't high on the scale, but jeez you should see the horrific damage they can do to skin and muscle tissue  Still, they'd make a cool pet


----------



## eipper (Jan 30, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> What is a better scale to use? I only use the information i have at hand, if there is a better source, i am more than happy to use it. Thanks



Why do you need to use a scale at all? The "i'm more toxic than you" urinating match is getting old. Unless your a toxicologist than I don't see the fascination and if you were toxicologist you would understand the flaws of the claim.


----------



## Hamalicious (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't "need" to use a scale, I just enjoy researching the animals that I love and the more knowledge I have about these animals the better.


----------



## cement (Jan 31, 2013)

Don't underestimate a red belly. On a hot day when they are at their optimum body temp and either hunting or travelling, they can be a fast snake and turn on you and strike quite quickly. True when they are cold they aren't to bad and may only head butt you, but until you have it in your hand, how cold is it? Most relocations of red bellies are cold snakes.

Catching wild ones in the bush is different, they are usually on the go or sunning.
I can imagine people reading these "very calm and don't usually envenomate" bits then thinking, "i'll have a go at that one"!!

Just take photos! Like this. I have no interest in catching wild snakes unless I have to. Why disturb them?


----------



## yamxs1100rh (Feb 3, 2013)

Ones preference for a species is subjective. Been keeping since the early 60's, had many species across the board with the exclusion of crocs. 
Enjoyed them all at the time. Personal favourites, blue bellys, paleheads, V acanthurus, marbled geckos and so on and on.
nowadays it's the smaller pythons simply because I enjoy keeping them.


----------



## KristianG (Feb 3, 2013)

I would love to own a RBB but I'm under 18 and I think the laws in Victoria are pretty strict about venomous snake and if you handle often would it be just like a python?

- - - Updated - - -

I would love to own a RBB but I'm under 18 and I think the laws in Victoria are pretty strict about venomous snake and if you handle often would it be just like a python?


----------



## fantapants (Feb 4, 2013)

KristianG said:


> I would love to own a RBB but I'm under 18 and I think the laws in Victoria are pretty strict about venomous snake and if you handle often would it be just like a python?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I would love to own a RBB but I'm under 18 and I think the laws in Victoria are pretty strict about venomous snake and if you handle often would it be just like a python?




Haha no mate, it will always be an Elapid unless you know of any venomous pythons.  Great snakes the RBB but experience in venomous snakes is essential if you want to own one because as calm and placid as some RRB's can become in captivity it is a venomous snake and should be treated as such. Unlike a python which carries no threat to your health if bitten the same cant be said about Elapids no matter how tame you may think it is


----------



## KristianG (Feb 4, 2013)

I was just inquiring but I think venomous snakes are not for me I like pythons heads better anyway


----------



## inkaddict (Feb 4, 2013)

Only Venomous ive got is a night tiger ... and its not for the venom .. its more for the look of them .... probably one of the coolest looking aussie colubs Id have to say ... but having said that ... i usually handle her 2-3 times a week .... 
I know this doesnt compare to an adder ... or brown ... but I wanted to be a voice too


----------

