# Carbon Tax what are your thoughts?



## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

Hey guys
Just wondering what your opinions are on the carbon tax?
Im an electrician and im also an accredited solar installer, for my industry i think it will boost it, but as an average joe i think its a joke.

They will slap the tax on but in the end US (the consumer) will end up being the ones who end up paying more in the long run.
Power companies will jack up the price of power to cover the tax, fuel companies will jack up the cost of fuel.

So where is the real benefit??

Sure the government will make money to put into research for renewable energy, But the carbon emission and cost to make solar panels and wind turbines etc etc is actually higher than what the renewable energy source will ever produce in its life time.

Higher electricity prices will make people consider installing solar power, Which will help ease the stress for the consumer on power bills for a while, but the cost of electricity will still go up and unfortunately for NSW the government also controls the tariffs for solar aswell. (and any one in NSW who knows about solar and the tariffs knows the price has gone down)

So where do we stand??

Im interrested to hear other peoples opinions on the issue because keeping herps means heating which means $$$$ with the carbon tax.

This isn't a debate or who's side your on! just a discussion topic

Cheers
jason


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## Specks (Mar 2, 2011)

nevermind my post, it got done
cheers


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

specksta1er said:


> nevermind my post, it got done
> cheers



Any input is better than none.


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## Exotic_Doc (Mar 2, 2011)

Jason, I totally agree with you man. Ive been trying to see the benefit of carbon tax and weighing it agaisnt the cons and it just doesnt make sense. The problem with our pollies is they say whatever they want to get into power, and then forget it all when the time comes. Julia, denied setting carbon tax in her pre election campaign and she has just turned 180 degrees. I just feel for the australian people because they honestly dont give a damn about us..


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

I totally agree with you exotic doc. At the end of the day they don't really care about us.
Don't get me wrong im all for trying to reduce green house gas emission but a tax defiantly isn't the way to go!


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## Khagan (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm just wondering where they expect your average person who doesn't have some high paying job etc to get the money for these inevitable increases in prices from. With the cost of living these days lotta people are only just getting by as it is, add on higher electricity and fuel price and some might not even be able to get by... Time to plant a money tree i guess.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

Im sure if you had a money tree they would tax that too!

They reckon the tax will create more jobs but i cant see how its going to!

I agree khan the cost of living is getting rediculas the only option to help that is to increase minimum wages. Which wont happen anytime soon.


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## Fuscus (Mar 2, 2011)

Jason.R said:


> I totally agree with you exotic doc. At the end of the day they don't really care about us.
> Don't get me wrong im all for trying to reduce green house gas emission but a tax defiantly isn't the way to go!


So what is the way to go? Voodoo? Pray? Healing rocks? Your costs will only go up if you don't modify your behaviour which is what this is supposed to do.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

Fuscus said:


> So what is the way to go? Voodoo? Pray? Healing rocks? Your costs will only go up if you don't modify your behaviour which is what this is supposed to do.



Like you said modifying your behaviour is the way to go. Most house holds have already started modifying the way they live. Some people to more extent than others.

Or the government could simply cut spending on the government sector. All the little lurks n perks pollies get if they cut just a few of them and used that money.
That money alone could be used instead of the tax.

It wont just be fuel and electricity prices that will go up. It will be the price of everything like food for example.


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## Australis (Mar 2, 2011)

Hope more good comes of this than the GST


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## AUSGECKO (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm sick of being bent over by the Australian government.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

Australis said:


> Hope more good comes of this than the GST



All the GST done was create a market for cash jobs.


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## Ships (Mar 2, 2011)

Its gunna be just like another big GST, everything will go up again, people in the future will look back on this as the biggest con of the century. The economy relies on burning fossil fuels, governments rely on the taxes from fossil fuels, while ever we worship the almighty dollar and the economy governments have a vested interest in not promoting non polluting alternatives...........unless they can tax them!!.


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## sutto75 (Mar 2, 2011)

This is just crap. I got a power bill today for 920 bucks same time last year was 615 bucks and my daily use was 45.5 kw and last year 44.5 kw so my bill has gone up 1/3 in a year with out the carbon tax. How are the people who cant pay there bills now going to pay in the future?????????. 
We are the lucky country held to ransom with a gov who has to drop to its knees before the greens to get anything done. Lets go back to the polls................


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## Snake_Whisperer (Mar 2, 2011)

It's utter crap. Just another tax hike to move us commoners that much closer to a return to the old serf and vassal system. They can put whatever BS name they want on it but that is all it is. I've cut back on ALL of my high use electrical devices (AC, dishwasher, clothes dryer, etc) and my bill has still gone up by 35 - 40% on average since 2009. Sorry, this has nothing at all to do with "saving the Earth". As end users, we will pay through the nose for it and businesses will still continue to turn record profits year after year!

Great, now I'm furious!


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 2, 2011)

Got to love the australian government!


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## jack (Mar 2, 2011)

the whole point is that it does cost more, and therefore people will use less to avoid the cost, and therefore there will be less emissions and more use of renewables.

for 99.8% of our species time on this planet we didn't depend on burning coal to fuel our pampered lives. 
deal with it


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## Ships (Mar 2, 2011)

People are already making changes to use less, what do you suggest next, burning canddles? Its crap its just another massive tax for the government coffers, I for one have trimmed as much as I can and my bill continues to go up, i dont have a clothes dryer and dont have aircon I am constantly annoying the kids for shorter showers and turning lights off, changed over to the crappy new lights and still my bill is double what it was a couple of years ago. I've no doubt that we have damaged the planet, but remember we have only been industrialised for a couple of hundred years, a couple of large volcanic explosions causes more damage than we have.


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## Wally (Mar 2, 2011)

A carbon tax has only three purposes.

1. Raise revenue for government coffers.

2. Raise revenue to subsidise agriculture and transport, which will be affected by any legislation the government introduces on carbon.

3. Help everyone feel like we are doing something about climate change.

It will be the consumer, and only the consumer who will feel the direct impact of a carbon tax. Food needs to be produced or we will starve, so lumping this proposed tax on already struggling farmers without subsidies is simply not an option. 

Similarly, the transport industry who distribute this food will also require the same help, or once again we will not have food to eat. Which poses the question, what has this proposed tax achieved? Nothing. Two of the largest contributors to carbon emissions - food production and transport, will continue to carry on with business as usual with large handouts from the government whilst the consumer is once again left to carry the burden.

The term ' climate change ' is an interesting one. It's something the planet has been doing on it's own for billions of years.


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## Dipcdame (Mar 2, 2011)

It's our way of paying for our abuse of the environment - we pay for it this way because if we don't, our children and generations to come will be paying for it in far worse ways!


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## Recharge (Mar 2, 2011)

there's no doubt about it, the human race is doomed.


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## jack (Mar 2, 2011)

sutto75 said:


> This is just crap. I got a power bill today for 920 bucks same time last year was 615 bucks and my daily use was 45.5 kw and last year 44.5 kw so my bill has gone up 1/3 in a year with out the carbon tax. How are the people who cant pay there bills now going to pay in the future?????????.
> We are the lucky country held to ransom with a gov who has to drop to its knees before the greens to get anything done. Lets go back to the polls................



i have no comprehension how you can use that much energy. i have two kids in nappies, which means the washing machine is on daily, and i have a lot of snakes, and my daily usage is always between 10-11 kw.
to answer your question, you will pay the bills by switching stuff off...


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## sutto75 (Mar 2, 2011)

jack said:


> i have no comprehension how you can use that much energy. i have two kids in nappies, which means the washing machine is on daily, and i have a lot of snakes, and my daily usage is always between 10-11 kw.
> to answer your question, you will pay the bills by switching stuff off...



If you have no comprehension then keep it to yourself. The question was for the people who cant pay the bill now. Not me..........


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## Fuscus (Mar 2, 2011)

sutto75 said:


> If you have no comprehension then keep it to yourself. The question was for the people who cant pay the bill now. Not me..........


I also lack the required comprehension. That bill far exceeds our yearly bill and wel have a large swimming pool. Perhaps you should be proactive and do an electrical audit rather than just whining about it


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## toximac (Mar 3, 2011)

Before you put a price on carbon dioxide - you need to measure how much from humans produce, on average - now, doesn't matter if you pollute less or burn rubber tires everyday..each person pays the same - fair? - I believe in climate change - but I don't agree with the figures - anyway - thats just me, I think Liberal party are pretending they don't want it just like they do every other party does in this fake democracy. They want The 42 billion internet cables down & the carbon tax up, so they can introduce the smart grid(like in the uk, control electrical intake to all homes) and carbon tax to take private property away, de industrialising & having china in lead - smaller companies will give up from land rent - nothing will be owned anymore but by the gov. when it regards environment ! An excuse that does nothing for climate change! Thinking they can hand over our currency once they find a price in carbon by carbon credits / resources.. our sovereignty and dollar will collapse into UN delegation...we will have less power :-/


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## wokka (Mar 3, 2011)

Electricity prices are increasing relatively fast now to catch up from the unrealistic prices of the past. Since most power in australia is produced from coal powered power stations, the price of electricity must rise as the price of coal rises.
One way to keep electricity prices down is to uses cheaper forms of generation such as solar and wind.They are also renewable.
About half the cost of electricity bills is the cost of reticulating power. If power is produced at a local level , such as on your roof, reticulation costs will be reduced.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

Well on top of the tax the government is about to faze out rebates on solar. 
So you go from being out of pocket about $4500 dollars for a 1.5kw system to being out of pocket around $12000 for the same system. So it will now not be a cheaper alternate. Now with the 22cent tariff a 1.5kw system will on produce around $350 dollars a year compared to the 60cent tariff which would make around $1000.

So the tax is coming in and the price for renewable energy is going up! So your system will go from a few years of paying its self of to about 20 years, which is more than the life expectancy of the system. On top of that they are installing smart meters so the will charge you time of use periods.

The price of coal goes up but it also drops aswell, but you don't the the price of power dropping when the price of coal does.

Your bill doesn't get charged by kW it gets charged by kWh. so if you do the maths sutto75 isn't using 45kW a day he is using 45kWh at around 19c per kWh (at a guess not including peak periods or time of use) which makes his bill $900+. which 45kWh a day is almost what an average house uses in sydney.


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## moosenoose (Mar 3, 2011)

Don't get me started on this topic! 

The whole thing is a gigantic crock! Yes, I think we should be modifying our impact on the planet, use renewable resources and raise our awareness to the environment and impact lax attitudes can cause; but in reality this new tax should be called the "chicken little tax"!! According to the people behind this ridiculous global warming religion (and I say religion because it demands a fair dose of faith in its overall "believability"), the sky is indeed falling!

We're supposedly the greatest polluters in the world according to some out there, but compared to who? Low payed Chinese civilians who have to bunk in with 3 generations of their family into a 2 bedroom apartment??? .... According to these "stats" we should be taking a leaf out of third world standards... No electricity during winter for warming, no more than one light on in the house at any given time..... Don't use your a/c during heat waves.... Seriously where is it all going???

Then there is a carry-on affect by bringing this "righteous" tax in! Transport goes up, which in turn effects the cost of everything! But it's our fault! We've got huge uranium resources at our fingertips, yet still choose to burn dirty coal to produce our electricity.... And now we're going to be stung for it! Badly!

Perhaps I'm off the mark with a few comments, but I think I've got a reasonable grasp of the reality behind it! It's not the tough medicine we need to swallow like the ones blindly following the hype want you to believe. I'm sure there are other ways of changing our ways other than making money out of it, under the guise of it! It's just poor form!


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## wokka (Mar 3, 2011)

The advantage of solar energy production compared to coal produced power is that the cost of generation stays the same for solar (at the moment the sun is free) wheras coal increases in price as energy becomes more scarce.
It is likely that energy prices will treble over the next ten years but the price of the sun will hopefully still be free.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

Yeah i totally agree with you on that wokka. But to power your house from the sun it will cost you about $50,000. If your in the country and your building your house you would consider it cause the cost of running power to your own house would cost about the same depending on how many poles you have to put in. If your in a more suburban area the cost to put power in is about $1000.

So the tax will really hurt the average australian on the average wage.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 3, 2011)

how do you manage 10-12 kwh, just curious perhaps I can utilize your knowlege to my advantage.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> Don't get me started on this topic!
> 
> The whole thing is a gigantic crock! Yes, I think we should be modifying our impact on the planet, use renewable resources and raise our awareness to the environment and impact lax attitudes can cause; but in reality this new tax should be called the "chicken little tax"!! According to the people behind this ridiculous global warming religion (and I say religion because it demands a fair dose of faith in its overall "believability"), the sky is indeed falling!
> 
> ...



I agree nuclear power is much more greener than coal fired power. Its being used in countries overseas and they are producing so much that they are selling power to other countries.

Another thing to look at is the bloom box. invest more money in stuff like that.

The reason why they don't is cause the government wont make money off it. They own the power sector so green energy to them means less money!

Hooglabah what do you have in your house?? like air con, electric hot and electric cook tops?


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## Khagan (Mar 3, 2011)

Hooglabah said:


> how do you manage 10-12 kwh, just curious perhaps I can utilize your knowlege to my advantage.


 
Candles for lighting, computer and tv powered by team of hamsters on wheels, static electricity powered herp set up.


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## wokka (Mar 3, 2011)

Jason.R said:


> Yeah i totally agree with you on that wokka. But to power your house from the sun it will cost you about $50,000. If your in the country and your building your house you would consider it cause the cost of running power to your own house would cost about the same depending on how many poles you have to put in. If your in a more suburban area the cost to put power in is about $1000.
> 
> 
> The opportunity cost of $50000 is about $5000 per year or 10% pa, How long do you think it will be until the average residential power bill hits $5000 pa.
> ...


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## moosenoose (Mar 3, 2011)

Put it this way... it's got me seriously investigating installing solar. So perhaps in a weird way, it's doing something positive. Even though I still think the scaremongering behind it is appalling! I'll vote for anyone who'll stop it going through! Life is expensive enough for some as it is without it costing more.


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## sutto75 (Mar 3, 2011)

So what is everyones ave kWh use. we can see that i dont turn anything off at all lol but yes i would like to know how you can spend only or less than 900 bucks a year on power with out putting back into the grid i.e solar
so im at 44.5kWh
and you.......


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## mattmc (Mar 3, 2011)

Government - Get.The.Fools.Out.

All well and good when your a rich son of a broad, but there is a little thing called people being worse off than you.

Saying prices of Elec are catching up to what the should be...thats a bit of a cop out. living prices in australia are a joke as it is. if you can afford it. good. get the hell out of this conversation. you have no right to talk about it.

gonna push all our farmers out of business through a chain of events. hell, we'll be buying more food from china. i dont want food from china fertilised by dead bodies and human faeces. chinese apples...NO...bleached chinese garlic...NO. china NO

hmmmm

ive got nothing wrong with cleaning up our act. do it sensibly, not death of the economy.

hmmmm geothermal is unstabe (earthquakes) wind turbines are expensive, as is panel production.

fluride comes from the smoke stacks of aluminium smelters and fertilizer production.

nuclear is the way to go. but then tim flannery will say australia is too small for nuclear. but australia will grow  so we will need to accomodate.

theres too many people on earth. put in place a one child policy or something like that but that denies the right to choice. dont have kids, be more lesbian or something. let gays and lesbians marry, less kids will be born that way because they will be more open. 

ban religion. religion is worse than 'global warming'

ban volcanoes from blowing up. hibalahjibaroo in iceland makes more pollution in 4 days than the world does in 4 years

lets use homer simpsons logic and live under the sea


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

If you can afford it solar is still good im agreeing with you on that totally. But the government has dropped the tariff to 20c gross.
The 66cent feed in tariff ends in 2016 so $5000 pa so your only making $30,000 in the 6 year total you have with the 66 cent after that it drops to 20cent. 

Wokka What type of panels and inverter are you using? feel free to PM details


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## cleobhp (Mar 3, 2011)

With us, in the winter we use up to 55kwh, as we have 13 fish tanks and 16 reptile tanks, our last winter bill was $1400, our last bill was $900 and I'm expecting this one to be a bit less, but I'm not happy with all of these price rises, as we use to have a comfortable life now every week is a struggle, I'm expecting down the track to have to give up the 2 hobbies we luv just too pay the mortgage, and the power bills.


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## wokka (Mar 3, 2011)

Jason.R said:


> If you can afford it solar is still good im agreeing with you on that totally. But the government has dropped the tariff to 20c gross.
> The 66cent feed in tariff ends in 2016 so $5000 pa so your only making $30,000 in the 6 year total you have with the 66 cent after that it drops to 20cent.
> 
> Wokka What type of panels and inverter are you using? feel free to PM details



To me solar comes out in front on all three bottom lines. There is more to decisions than just dollars. Although solar stacked up financially the environmental and social benefits are there to.

Unfortunately I use about 10K worth of power a year now at 20c/kwh, so with my system I break about even, but by 2006 I expect power will be closer to 60 cents /kwh than to todays 20cents so it should still stack up financially then

Perhaps its just a way for be to sooth my guilt using so much power warming 500 or so snakes and freezing a few cubic meters of food. I dont know if you would call it carbon nuetral but it is better than just burning coal.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

wokka said:


> To me solar comes out in front on all three bottom lines. There is more to decisions than just dollars. Although solar stacked up financially the environmental and social benefits are there to.
> 
> Unfortunately I use about 10K worth of power a year now at 20c/kwh, so with my system I break about even, but by 2006 I expect power will be closer to 60 cents /kwh than to todays 20cents so it should still stack up financially then
> 
> Perhaps its just a way for be to sooth my guilt using so much power warming 500 or so snakes and freezing a few cubic meters of food. I dont know if you would call it carbon nuetral but it is better than just burning coal.



I agree that solar is defiantly better than coal fired power stations (if i didn't i wouldn't make money haha) And will also help you save money. 
I just don't agree with the tax and all the cuts to stuff like solar power.
If they used the money from the tax to make green energy more cheaper and readily available it may be a good idea but they rant they are just making it worse.


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## wokka (Mar 3, 2011)

cleobhp said:


> With us, in the winter we use up to 55kwh, as we have 13 fish tanks and 16 reptile tanks, our last winter bill was $1400, our last bill was $900 and I'm expecting this one to be a bit less, but I'm not happy with all of these price rises, as we use to have a comfortable life now every week is a struggle, I'm expecting down the track to have to give up the 2 hobbies we luv just too pay the mortgage, and the power bills.



Have you considerred improving the efficencies of your energy usage in fish and reptiles?
I use about 80,000 kwh each year to heat 500 snakes. I know keeper who use that for 30 snakes.



Jason.R said:


> I agree that solar is defiantly better than coal fired power stations (if i didn't i wouldn't make money haha) And will also help you save money.
> I just don't agree with the tax and all the cuts to stuff like solar power.
> If they used the money from the tax to make green energy more cheaper and readily available it may be a good idea but they rant they are just making it worse.


 Thats just it- the tax should make coal fired power dearer so people will be encouraged towards solar and you will continue to make money.


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## cleobhp (Mar 3, 2011)

We changed our filters to low consumption filters and the heaters as well, in the last few days we have been looking into solar and by the sounds of it we should get in quick before the govt winds down the rebates. We spent a bit of money upgrading everything, maybe solar is the way to go now.


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## wokka (Mar 3, 2011)

cleobhp said:


> We changed our filters to low consumption filters and the heaters as well, in the last few days we have been looking into solar and by the sounds of it we should get in quick before the govt winds down the rebates. We spent a bit of money upgrading everything, maybe solar is the way to go now.


I used to breed fish . I had about 30 x 4 foot tanks. When I built an insulated coolroom to house them the heating costs fell dramatically.


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## mattmc (Mar 3, 2011)

wokka...It's not gonna encourage didley squat. Companies won't care. They'll just up the price. It's cheaper than evolving. Besides, the government has 0 to no say in how they play their life. The world is not run by governments, but by the military machine and coorporations.

As an individual in the community (no me specifically - an average or below average wage earning australian) you will:

A) not be able to afford to install solar. 
and B) not be able to afford electricity
and C) not be able to afford fuel
and D) not be able to buy AUSTRALIAN MADE OWNED AND GROWN groceries
and E) pay the Mortage. 
I'm sure your earning a killing off what ever job you have, plus the sales off the offspring of your snakes (500 +) or what ever you have. I mean, if you've got enough to sponser, you've got enough to do your part. You as an individual in such a position that I see you as having through general observation, have no right to comment and make suggestions for the poorer in the community. If the plan is to roll back solar rebates, then people will definately not be able to afford squat.

It's you people, YOU who has SOLAR that are also pushing up the price of electricity.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

mattmc said:


> wokka...It's not gonna encourage didley squat. Companies won't care. They'll just up the price. It's cheaper than evolving. Besides, the government has 0 to no say in how they play their life. The world is not run by governments, but by the military machine and coorporations.
> 
> As an individual in the community (no me specifically - an average or below average wage earning australian) you will:
> 
> ...


 
People with solar are also keeping there power stations carbon foot prints down because the power companies are the ones buying the REC or STC's as they are now called.


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## moosenoose (Mar 3, 2011)

wokka said:


> Thats just it- the tax should make coal fired power dearer so people will be encouraged towards solar and you will continue to make money.



I think it's a bit of a shame that we're being pushed and taxed to the hilt about it though. How about the government keep the tax it's making from us for the excuse of global warming (aka the man-made carbon impact) .... But hang on.... wasn't it CFC's (Chlorofluorocarbon) in spray cans once that was blowing holes in the ozone??? :lol: ... we fixed that....which in turn must have really taken the wind out of the fanatic doomsayers sails.... until they finally targeted the very fabric of the modern world which is the combustion engine! Now they've got us!! 

Instead of the government penalizing everyone on a frantic whim, why don't they actually fix the problem? Why are we allowed to burn crappy dirty coal and as consumers still get charged a premium dollar for it?

It's like our water (off topic I know)... we get a desal plant (nearly :lol.. 24 billion dollars worth...to supply huge volumes of water, yet our water bills are set to double in 5 years??!! :lol:

Seriously, aren't we just the biggest bunch of suckers! :lol: Can I buy shares in the doomsday market?? It must be getting some killer returns! :lol:


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## mattmc (Mar 3, 2011)

moosenoose said:


> Seriously, aren't we just the biggest bunch of suckers! :lol: Can I buy shares in the doomsday market?? It must be getting some killer returns! :lol:



GET IN LINE! >.< :lol:


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## moosenoose (Mar 3, 2011)

Hehe I have no choice ..... I'm on the market


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 3, 2011)

Thats it moosenoose the government is only seeing $$$$$$$$$$


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## Darlyn (Mar 3, 2011)

Isn't the point that as the price of power increases more people will adopt solar or cut down
on their usage so the big emitters will see a decrease in demand. If one of the big producers
invest in better R+D and puts in place measures to mass produce cleaner and cheaper energy, 
they will corner the market ensuring their competitors follow suit.
That's how I think it's supposed to work.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 3, 2011)

Hooglabah what do you have in your house?? like air con, electric hot and electric cook tops?[/QUOTE]

It my parents house and they use a tone of electricity, heaps and unbelieveable amounts, that said they are major computer freaks, so 7 computers one for each memeber of the house.

Then the massive meter and a half tv, plus all the lights aircon, ducted heating, my snakes, my tv ect ect, our power bill is $900 a quarter and mum still loves the idea of the carbon tax!!!

That said my parents earn an amount that means they can afford this.

I on the other hand earn 35k a year...just. Also have a baby on the way and am desperately trying to get my own place with the other half.

So please tell me how is that carbon tax beneficial?? In a way Im likely to give a damn about? ( directed at people who say oh just use less) I'm one of the people who are going to be hurt the worst by it, everything I enjoy doing I wont be able to do, my life will become work and sleep that's it, at Least for the next few years.

Sure with junior on the way that was going to happen anyway, but at least I would have been able to buy my child nice things.


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## mattmc (Mar 3, 2011)

your child doesnt need nice things, as a previous poster stated before, we've been around for 2 million years, and we didnt need nice things then, live without now...








that by the way was sarcasm(though a poster did say something along those lines)


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## Hooglabah (Mar 3, 2011)

Funny thing is the people who say live without nice things often already have nice things.


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## mattmc (Mar 3, 2011)

Hooglabah said:


> Funny thing is the people who say live without nice things often already have nice things.



agreed 100%


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## wokka (Mar 4, 2011)

The aim of companies is to make money. Electricity companies charge at least enough to cover their costs of production.As coal runs out the price will rise. With the main variable cost of production being coal, the price of coal fired generated electricity must go up. You might call it doomsday but I call it logic.
The decision is wether to have short term pain for long term gain, or to live for today and don't bother about tomorrow.
I am in the process of building a new rat shed. I can build a 200m2 uninsulated shed for about $20,000. To insulate that shed will cost around $10,000. Some would say go for the cheaper option and save 10K. Others would say spend the extra and save on airconditioning costs for years to come. What is the right decision?

mattmc, how does having solar power generation push up the price of electricity?


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## Jungle_Freak (Mar 4, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> It's utter crap. Just another tax hike to move us commoners that much closer to a return to the old serf and vassal system. They can put whatever BS name they want on it but that is all it is. I've cut back on ALL of my high use electrical devices (AC, dishwasher, clothes dryer, etc) and my bill has still gone up by 35 - 40% on average since 2009. Sorry, this has nothing at all to do with "saving the Earth". As end users, we will pay through the nose for it and businesses will still continue to turn record profits year after year!
> 
> Great, now I'm furious!


 
EXACTLY AARON
politicians are all the same
you never know their true agenda untill they get elected ???
then look out here comes the big ideas ?? that incudes more taxes ? 
and guess who pays for it .


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## mattmc (Mar 4, 2011)

wokka said:


> mattmc, how does having solar power generation push up the price of electricity?



hmmmmmm let me think...

well. your excess generation is sold back to the grid...so to recoup losses they hike the price a bit. they are already losing profit from people having solar, so there is another price hike. a company cant be seen as having less of a profit than last year..so the more solar on individual houses..the more it costs for those that cant just outright go and get solar.

its not as easy as saying...in 5/10/15 years im going to break even and start to make a profit on my solar generation. clearly it doesnt matter for you. your going to spend $30,000 on a rat shed. RAT SHED. money to you is clearly expendable. how about you go out and buy people some solar panels that cant afford it. if the government was dead serious, they would chuck solar panels on top of every new house and every other house on the land. you make me sick.


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## Recharge (Mar 4, 2011)

he makes you sick? that's a bit full on don't you think? just because he hasn't logically thought it through shouldn't have you reacting that way. chill pill dude.

but you're right that they're greedy bastards in regards to profit, but then, they have to be, infrastructure (that they've let run to ruin in the last 30 years) is expensive to upkeep and replace.
the expense is worth it when you consider JUST how fast they get power back on after a devastating event.
where they're going wrong is they think we're an endless pit for them to gouge (this is all business and government included) 
as cost of living is starting to out strip income (in total) things are going to start going horribly wrong for a lot of people in the not too distant future.
the BIG problem, especially with government (on all levels of it) is the pure and unadulterated waste through mismanagement and incompetence of the public sector, streamlining things would save us tax payers billions, but they don't care, they can just raise more taxes. (at least until people start civil disobedience and anarchy)


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## killimike (Mar 4, 2011)

wokka said:


> I used to breed fish . I had about 30 x 4 foot tanks. When I built an insulated coolroom to house them the heating costs fell dramatically.



Coolroom panelling has made an enormous difference for those people I know who've installed it. 

Cleo, As far as filtration, you'd have to do the math for your setup, but air driven filtration is almost always more energy efficient. Lighting could be on timers to keep it to a minimum, I doubt you have metal halides, so fluros should be fairly efficient, but maybe make sure your starters are all still working to get the best use out of your tubes.

What did you used to breed wokka?


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 4, 2011)

mattmc said:


> hmmmmmm let me think...
> 
> well. your excess generation is sold back to the grid...so to recoup losses they hike the price a bit. they are already losing profit from people having solar, so there is another price hike. a company cant be seen as having less of a profit than last year..so the more solar on individual houses..the more it costs for those that cant just outright go and get solar.
> 
> its not as easy as saying...in 5/10/15 years im going to break even and start to make a profit on my solar generation. clearly it doesnt matter for you. your going to spend $30,000 on a rat shed. RAT SHED. money to you is clearly expendable. how about you go out and buy people some solar panels that cant afford it. if the government was dead serious, they would chuck solar panels on top of every new house and every other house on the land. you make me sick.



The rat shed is his business. So i can understand him spending that much on the shed.

They are not actually loosing profits because they are buying back the reck points from the solar which reduces their carbon footprint. So that will in the later offset the amount of tax they will have to pay. So realistically they are making more money from it. 
Its not the energy companies who is paying for the tariff its the government who is paying for the excess power with the budget they allowed for it. Its already reached the cut off so they have dropped it to almost lower than what you pay for your power and are also changing the tariff to a net tariff and installing smart meters. So you may be producing power but as soon as it hits 2pm you will be paying double for your power until around 10pm. They are basically giving it to you in one hand and taking it with the other!!


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## mattmc (Mar 4, 2011)

it may be his business. the point is. hes got money to throw away on a project like that. average joe doesnt.


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 4, 2011)

He may also have made huge sacrifices to afford that. Not to mention hard work. 
Hell im an average joe I install solar power and i don't even have my own system on my house because I have spent money else where.


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## fugawi (Mar 4, 2011)

Heres a question for you......If our solar panels excess electricity is put back into the grid, therefore the main power stations need to produce less electricity. So why are we paying more when they are supplying less?

Carbon tax.....what a crock, whats next .....an oxygen tax?


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## Khagan (Mar 4, 2011)

Jason.R said:


> He may also have made huge sacrifices to afford that. Not to mention hard work.
> Hell im an average joe I install solar power and i don't even have my own system on my house because I have spent money else where.


 
Fair enough, he may have.. But i agree with him, it's all good for people with the money to go solar/insulate to sit there and go "Oh, just spend X amount of money on solar/insulating and you'll save on electricity just like me!" while most people are struggling to afford to live let alone fork out X amount on something like that. So it's a bit condescending of these people with more money to throw around, we don't have the option of solar or insulation, as much as we'd love it to be a viable option, our ONLY choice is to straight up use the power and get hit for it.


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## fugawi (Mar 4, 2011)

It has just occurred to me .....with the states selling off the power stations to private hands, there will be no more income. So the government creates a carbon tax to make up for the loss of income That means the government is basically lying to us all. Isn't that enough to have them turfed?


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## Moreliavridis (Mar 4, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Heres a question for you......If our solar panels excess electricity is put back into the grid, therefore the main power stations need to produce less electricity. So why are we paying more when they are supplying less?
> 
> Carbon tax.....what a crock, whats next .....an oxygen tax?



They basically keep the power station running and supply the power to other stations who need it. come 6pm the power consumption goes through the roof and your solar system stops working at about 5pm.



fugawi said:


> It has just occurred to me .....with the states selling off the power stations to private hands, there will be no more income. So the government creates a carbon tax to make up for the loss of income That means the government is basically lying to us all. Isn't that enough to have them turfed?



You basically hit the nail on the head there mate. Energy Australia has also changed its name.

I agree the carbon Tax is a rip off there is so many other alternatives but the government wont make as much money.


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## fugawi (Mar 4, 2011)

Power can't be mixed like 2 liquids, 1 power station can take over a section of the grid from another using switching, they don't just supply another that needs it. Excess power can't just be pushed back into the grid. Electricity flows like water flowing down a pipe, you would need to force a higher pressure back against the flow.


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## jack (Mar 4, 2011)

Jason.R said:


> ... the government wont make as much money.


 
not singling you out other than for convenience jason as there have been lots of posts/threads which have voiced similar sentiments of late. which the only reason i am bothering to re-enter this thread.

i put this to you all, who do you think the government spends its money on? 

it goes to (amongst other things) the defence force, education, health, and the number one federal expenditure (more than 40% of all monies raised by tax)- all those social welfare payments made by centrelink


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## Recharge (Mar 4, 2011)

jack said:


> not singling you out other than for convenience jason as there have been lots of posts/threads which have voiced similar sentiments of late. which the only reason i am bothering to re-enter this thread.
> 
> i put this to you all, who do you think the government spends its money on?
> 
> it goes to (amongst other things) the defence force, education, health, and the number one federal expenditure (more than 40% of all monies raised by tax)- all those social welfare payments made by centrelink


you want to be VERY careful about the way you point to centrelink the way you do, I'm not sure of your intent, but, Centrelink has a very diverse system, covering students, the aged, the disabled, war veterans, single parents and support for carers, training for a whole range of peoples (among a whole slew of other things) even land acquisition for native people, included in their budget is the actual running of the system it's self, including scary amounts of bureaucratic mismanagement of funding (both inside and outside).

now, can you produce papers stating this percentage you say centrelink takes from the total Australian budget?
40% does not look like an accurate figure


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## Fantazmic (Mar 4, 2011)

We will go like England......if you dont pay your bill just once you operate your heating on a prepaid card....no money on the prepaid card...no heater on.....and in an English winter thats really really cold.........

Thats what they will bring in here for sure.....

I hope the Australian people backlash with a landslide in the other direction at the next election......as the only way pollies will learn not to lie is if they get a great big fat kick in the bum


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## wokka (Mar 4, 2011)

mattmc said:


> it may be his business. the point is. hes got money to throw away on a project like that. average joe doesnt.


it is just a question of priorities. Some people borrow money for a car and some people borrow money for solar panels. To me solar is a worthwhile spend. Some people may even chose to drink it instead!


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## Recharge (Mar 4, 2011)

ahh but both the main parties are just as complicit in their lies, so what good will it do? 
personally, I'd love to put the greens in, for just one term, to scare the living poo out of them both, I mean, look what happend when pauline hanson game close to some semblance of power, they both went crazy and combined forces to destroy her in any way possible. 

I think both of them losing, just once, would shake Australian politics more than ever before, and just possibly, make them rethink their current strategy of lies and deceit and dodgeyness, but then again, who am I kidding? they're all rotten to the core.


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## mattmc (Mar 4, 2011)

Recharge said:


> ahh but both the main parties are just as complicit in their lies, so what good will it do?
> personally, I'd love to put the greens in, for just one term, to scare the living poo out of them both, I mean, look what happend when pauline hanson game close to some semblance of power, they both went crazy and combined forces to destroy her in any way possible.
> 
> I think both of them losing, just once, would shake Australian politics more than ever before, and just possibly, make them rethink their current strategy of lies and deceit and dodgeyness, but then again, who am I kidding? they're all rotten to the core.


 

greens in once would be greens in never again. sounds good? no. its not worth the one term. even though i agree with a lot of their policies....the bad far outweigh and good that would come. if they were to get any more power than what PM Bob Brown has at the moment....approval would go hiroshima real hard real fast


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## Mayo (Mar 4, 2011)

We are currently waiting to get our Solar power installed. We currently pay our power bill weekly at $40 per week. We had a guy come out and show us how much power we were using etc and what size we would need to neutralize our power bill (2.2kw). We have put it onto an interest free payment scheme and the weekly repayment is $36, and I think it will be paid off in a little over 3yrs. To put solar on our home is cheaper than paying our power bill. I am married with 2 kids, and earn $43k per year. Solar is affordable you just need to look into it.


The carbon tax is a joke though and should be treated as such.


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## jack (Mar 5, 2011)

recharge, indeed centrelink administers a whole host of payments including those you describe, and they are social welfare payments, which is why i carefully described them as such. 
the most recent federal budget has its own website, with all breakdowns... will that suffice for the "papers" you wish me to provide?

as to my "intent", i was illustrating that the government gives back what it takes, and people should stop their whingeing about tax in a country which has one of the lowest rates of tax in the western world


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## mattmc (Mar 5, 2011)

YO JACK!!!!!! why even compare australia to another country? if you want to go pay more tax, go pay more tax some where else. Get out.


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## wokka (Mar 5, 2011)

mattmc said:


> its not as easy as saying...in 5/10/15 years im going to break even and start to make a profit on my solar generation. clearly it doesnt matter for you. your going to spend $30,000 on a rat shed. RAT SHED. money to you is clearly expendable. how about you go out and buy people some solar panels that cant afford it. if the government was dead serious, they would chuck solar panels on top of every new house and every other house on the land. you make me sick.


The government did try offerring subsidised Green Loans at reduced prices for home owners to improve their energy efficency but the scheme finished. I am not sure why, but think it is a good method of encouraging the implementation of new technology. It encourages longterm investment rather than the usual instant satisfaction spend , which is soon gone with little long term benefit


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## KaotikJezta (Mar 16, 2011)

Carbon tax is a cop out so they don't actually have to start using any form of clean cheap/free energy. The major oil companies and corporations are still going to be raking in all the profit and the average person is going to suffer. As for us on student income and the likes who are well below the poverty line, well god knows what is going to happen to us. Rents are going up, power and gas has jumped a ridiculous amount and food is not much better. A lot of the problems poor people face would be solved if governments started getting serious about cheap renewable energy but the corporate lobby is far too influential for that to ever happen. They will wait until there is absolutely no fossil fuels left and then go nuclear, then wait until the uranium runs out and then maybe we might see some serious effort put into renewable energy. Probably only if they can work out a way to make a profit off it though.


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## ezekiel86 (Mar 16, 2011)

Its like speed cams ! They are their for all the right reasons


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## Rattler (Mar 16, 2011)

greedy people have ruined the earth (rev 11:18 ). it is a good idea to try and look to lessen our impact. i dont have a comment on the tax itself.


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## ezekiel86 (Mar 16, 2011)

hibern8 said:


> greedy people have ruined the earth (rev 11:18 ). it is a good idea to try and look to lessen our impact. i dont have a comment on the tax itself.


 

Have the roman catholic church always done the right thing...and not been greedy?


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## cris (Mar 16, 2011)

There are only 2 major environmental problems on earth that need extra attention, population growth and dependance on economic growth. Its only by stopping these things that genuine progress will be made.

If any CO2 financial insentive/punishment should be implemented it should be a very carefully planned ETS.

The things that should be taxed more are energy exports and imports of products that can be made here (i have no idea of what sort of increases are practical though). This will allow for better environmental outcomes and also enable Australia to be more independant. The thing is that this will cause the people in control to make less money, so its not going to happen. I have also always believed that the fuel exise should be constantly raised at a slow rate.

IMO Australia is one of the most envirnmentally friendly countries on earth, apart from our coal exports we wouldnt contrubute much at all to global warming.


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## Rattler (Mar 16, 2011)

ezekiel86 said:


> Have the roman catholic church always done the right thing...and not been greedy?


*NO* _Definitely_ not! (Rev 17:1,15-18 and Rev 18:4) 
your right


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## cris (Mar 16, 2011)

We should also tax religious organisations at 150% the normal rate, to make up for all the tax they have been dodging.


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## wranga (Mar 16, 2011)

i didnt vote them in. but i sure as hell will do my bit to vote labour out.
carbon tax is nothing more than another excuse for another new tax. its nothing more than a tax on the air we breath.
carbon dioxide is need so things grow. 
thanks labour/greens for bending me over, sorry you cant get in any deeper


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## killimike (Mar 16, 2011)

wranga said:


> carbon tax is nothing more than another excuse for another new tax. its nothing more than a tax on the air we breath.
> carbon dioxide is need so things grow.


 
I am not a dyed-in-the-wool political hack, I wouldn't support the tax, but come on... 'A tax on the air we breathe' 'Co2 is needed so things grow' This kind of vapid sloganeering is as bad as suggesting the tax.


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## cris (Mar 16, 2011)

killimike said:


> I am not a dyed-in-the-wool political hack, I wouldn't support the tax, but come on... 'A tax on the air we breathe' 'Co2 is needed so things grow' This kind of vapid sloganeering is as bad as suggesting the tax.


 
It is very simplified but CO2 isnt really an evil thing, i have never seen any evidence to suggest the amount of CO2 Australia produces directly is likely to damage anything, that said i have never tried to look for it but would be keen to see anything suggesting Australias direct CO2 emmisions are a significant factor.


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## OzGecko (Mar 17, 2011)

I apologise if anyone else has already pointed this out as I skipped half the posts.

I find the tax to be a complete joke. If the government was serious about reducing green house emissions they would stop all mining of brown coal (proabaly one of the biggest polluters and most inefficent forms of producing power). Yet they are quite happy to slug us this Carbon tax and also sell mining rights, plus get their slice of the action when the coal is then on sold to some of the worlds largest polluters such as China.
Am I the only one whos sees a problem with this??


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## cris (Mar 17, 2011)

OzGecko said:


> Am I the only one whos sees a problem with this??


 
No, but how could you stop it? the government is to brainless and corrupted/influenced by real power to create reform that wont make us go broke without being dependant on coal. If you would all vote for me as president i could fix it


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