# free handling elapids



## herpie boy (Jul 15, 2007)

i have been wondering for a while now, how many people often free handle their vens or have one in particular which they trust to a certain exact and treat like a python . or any crazy people that just dont care :lol::lol::lol:?????


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 15, 2007)

Haha this will be interesting.....if anyone replies.


----------



## herpie boy (Jul 15, 2007)

i would also love to see pics of anyone free handling ( no pics of HOSER)


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

lol i know what you mean donk  pop corn time :lol: I know of a guy who has a large collection of elapids that he free handles insluding tai's. I have a mate who use to free handle his Tai's and said he would free handle any adder.


----------



## beesagtig (Jul 15, 2007)

I don't have licence to keep elapids but I prob would free handle them, not that mum will ever let me keep them!


----------



## Aslan (Jul 15, 2007)

There are some good shots in this gallery...

http://www.macherps.com/index.php?module=Gallery2&g2_itemId=218


----------



## ogg666 (Jul 15, 2007)

I've seen black snakes and redbellies handled as though they were pythons :shock:.This is not a practice i would undertake myself as the old saying goes the most poisnous snake in the world is the one that just bit you..


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 15, 2007)

m.punja said:


> I know of a guy who has a large collection of elapids that he free handles insluding tai's.


 Would this bloke happen to live in/near Sydney?


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

No one in QLD and one in Vic


----------



## scorps (Jul 15, 2007)

i have free handled a mates red belly black


----------



## herpie boy (Jul 15, 2007)

cheers for that aslan, well old mate bob is now my new hero. hows the olive eating the hybrid


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

The one in Vic no longer does it, he was inspired to sell them after a trip to the hospital from a bad feeding session


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 15, 2007)

herpie boy said:


> cheers for that aslan, well old mate bob is now my new hero.


There's a lot better than Bob getting around. Especially a bloke in Sydney.


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

Yeah I've seen some doozies, when I bought my WA black tigers the guy kissed them goodbye, right on the smaker. Lucky they didn't kiss back


----------



## herpie boy (Jul 15, 2007)

what is the the better species to handle for a virgin


----------



## stary boy (Jul 15, 2007)

start with playing with your own snake that you know, then as you get more experienced you can venture towards others and play with their snakes too :shock:


----------



## Ranga (Jul 15, 2007)

thats is quite possibly the best advicve any body could give to a "virgin" as stated b4...


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 15, 2007)

stary boy said:


> start with playing with your own snake that you know, then as you get more experienced you can venture towards others and play with their snakes too :shock:


 
yep thats how i got so good at it, lots and lots of practice...........and i mean lots


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

lol, i think everyones a little toey tonight


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 15, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> yep thats how i got so good at it, lots and lots of practice...........and i mean lots



Did you ever get "tagged" ?? lol


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 15, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Did you ever get "tagged" ?? lol


 
A few times i came very close....


----------



## herpie boy (Jul 15, 2007)

i have a fair bit of experience stary girl i could show you things they dont even have names for


----------



## stary boy (Jul 15, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> A few times i came very close....


 

HAHAH donk!! you came very what?? 

toey? whos toey? not i, im a nun in the making - i dont get "toey"


----------



## mrboajangles (Jul 15, 2007)

I think its quite stupid to freehandle venomous snakes!!! I have done its once because i am such a brave hard A55!!!


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

nice RBBS mate, its a ripper


----------



## mrmikk (Jul 15, 2007)

Aslan said:


> There are some good shots in this gallery...
> 
> http://www.macherps.com/index.php?module=Gallery2&g2_itemId=218


 
Excellent Pics!


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

sorry to highjack the thread but how old is the pic? has the RBBS grown much since it was taken


----------



## mrboajangles (Jul 15, 2007)

m.punja said:


> sorry to highjack the thread but how old is the pic? has the RBBS grown much since it was taken



Unfortunaly he died!!! the photo would be about 10months (guess) old. I would still love to get another RBBS one day!!! sigh!!!


----------



## Splitmore (Jul 15, 2007)

herpie boy said:


> what is the the better species to handle for a virgin



Can I just ask why you seem to feel the need to free handle venemous snakes?? 
I love the fact that most people who seem to make a habit of it also seem very keen to have their pictures taken in the process, or do it in front of a crowd. All is it is someone trying to show off or make up for something else they are obviously lacking. There's no secret to it, most elapids do become very placid in captivity. Nothing justifies the risk, so say it's less stressful to a snake to be free handled than using a hook is complete rubbish.


----------



## m.punja (Jul 15, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> Unfortunaly he died!!! the photo would be about 10months (guess) old. I would still love to get another RBBS one day!!! sigh!!!


 
Do you know the breeder you got it from. It's fave looked like it was going to come up really red. I'd like to get some RBBS wtih red/orange faces


----------



## mrboajangles (Jul 15, 2007)

Splitmore said:


> Can I just ask why you seem to feel the need to free handle venemous snakes??
> I love the fact that most people who seem to make a habit of it also seem very keen to have their pictures taken in the process, or do it in front of a crowd. All is it is someone trying to show off or make up for something else they are obviously lacking. There's no secret to it, most elapids do become very placid in captivity. Nothing justifies the risk, so say it's less stressful to a snake to be free handled than using a hook is complete rubbish.



I agree, it is quite stupid!!! I dont care if you get bitten but i do care when its my tax dollars paying for your care afterwards!!! I know this sounds stupid when i took a photo of myself doing so!!


----------



## krusty (Jul 15, 2007)

mrboajangles said:


> I agree, it is quite stupid!!! I dont care if you get bitten but i do care when its my tax dollars paying for your care afterwards!!! I know this sounds stupid when i took a photo of myself doing so!!



its not the tax dollars that i care about as my tax dollars go to a lot of other thing that i think are not on so one more wont hurt.

the thing i care about is the BAD rap the reptiles get and the pepole that use it to try and stop us keeping them at home.....jmo.


----------



## mrboajangles (Jul 15, 2007)

krusty said:


> its not the tax dollars that i care about as my tax dollars go to a lot of other thing that i think are not on so one more wont hurt.
> 
> the thing i care about is the BAD rap the reptiles get and the pepole that use it to try and stop us keeping them at home.....jmo.



good point!!!!


----------



## stringbean (Jul 15, 2007)

type ten deadliest snakes into youtube, shows steve irwin free handling the 10 most deadly snakes in australia, it is very good, there are three parts, each about 8-9 minuites i think. well worth a look, i think the series was on animal planet or something like that a while ago.

r.i.p. steve


----------



## herpie boy (Jul 15, 2007)

splitmore i dont have a penis complex,there were no people in sight when i caught almost all of my elapids. i cant explain why i want to free handle elapids but it has nothing to do with bad boy syndrome, hosers illness..................... i mean posers illness


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 15, 2007)

Splitmore said:


> Can I just ask why you seem to feel the need to free handle venemous snakes??
> I love the fact that most people who seem to make a habit of it also seem very keen to have their pictures taken in the process, or do it in front of a crowd. All is it is someone trying to show off or make up for something else they are obviously lacking. There's no secret to it, most elapids do become very placid in captivity. Nothing justifies the risk, so say it's less stressful to a snake to be free handled than using a hook is complete rubbish.


 I dont touch them myself Splitmore, but is it possible it's just like some people like surfing giant waves, climbing mountains,racing cars/bikes, or playing with big cats etc? Why does it freak people out so much and create opinions such as yours? Not having a go at you, just asking a question.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 15, 2007)

There are a lot of tossers and triehards who get Elapids and try to impress people and usually like to take a heap of photos to circulate around. Most of them get one good bite and sell all their elapids and go back to pythons.But the few real Elapid men around the place who go about their business without creating a fuss should be admired in my opinion.


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 15, 2007)

Its a hard one the whole free handling debate.

Yes its not necasary, but people have the right to do what they want (providing not breaking the law).

Free handling is frowned upon by lots of herpers, the same way free soloing is frowned upon by many climbers.

Checkout this vid of Dan Osman free soloing YouTube - Dan Osman - No ropes, sin cuerdas=

Dan osman is now dead, there are risks and as long as you fully understand the risks, then its up to the individual.

R.I.P Dan osman


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 15, 2007)

So true Donkey. But why exactly is it frowned upon? The usual answer is because it brings negative publicity upon the industry. I'm not so sure. A mate of mine handles dangerous snakes on a daily basis and has been bitten a number of times. On all occasions he went to hospital with no fuss, spent considerable time in intensive care and returned home. Only close friends knew what actually happened, apart from one occasion when the Sunday Telegraph got wind of it through the police. He refused any interviews and it was quickly forgotton.He has never caused any negative publicity towards the "industry". And for the people who talk about tax payers money, the offspring of his animals actually contribute venom to the production of anti-venom. I just think a lot of peoples opinions would change if they saw people like this doing their thing. I'm not talking about blokes like Bob getting up in front of a crowd trying to show off.


----------



## baxtor (Jul 15, 2007)

If you don't want to freehandle then don't, but if somebody else does then that's their business. To suggest that it is some sort of macho penis envy thing or simply showing off is ridiculous. I think most of those that freehandle do it in the privacy of their own home and any pics they might have very rarely turn up on the forums simply because of the anti-freehandling bias on most sites.


----------



## moosenoose (Jul 15, 2007)

After hearing what Brian Barnett said the other week I've relaxed a little on my free-handling attitude in regards to vens. That said my first real experience with a ven being handled like a python was a speckled brown snake, I've also done the same with a red bellied black and on numerous times have seen various tiger snakes freehandled without drama by their keepers - even a death adder! :shock: I suppose it's whether you feel up to a week or two in the ICU? Too easy to become complacent with these animals IMHO - as Brian said 99.99% of the time they won't bite, but that .01% where they do will be the worst percentage you'll ever wish to experience! 

There are a few members I know of on here who have had run-ins with elapids and have said in no uncertain terms that it is a very unpleasant experience - and funnily enough feel quite embarrassed about it.


----------



## JasonL (Jul 16, 2007)

Sure it's only a Golden Crown, but it's a ill temperered Golden Crown with friggin Lazers......................


----------



## JasonL (Jul 16, 2007)

Sorry, Ive watched Austin Powers to many times.... not quite as funny as Austin Stevens but still funny


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 16, 2007)

That GC is awsome..........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmole mole :lol:


----------



## Vincent (Jul 16, 2007)

Thats the kind of stuff that gives us all a bad name Jason.


----------



## salebrosus (Jul 16, 2007)

Would so love to check out some of your snakes Shane. I won't be wanting to touch them but seeing them would be great.

Simone.


----------



## Vincent (Jul 16, 2007)

Anytime you want Simone. There's not that much to see, but your welcome anytime.


----------



## JasonL (Jul 16, 2007)

ShaneBlack said:


> Thats the kind of stuff that gives us all a bad name Jason.



Sorry, I'll take the lazers back out


----------



## dansfish4tea (Jul 16, 2007)

http://www.macherps.com/index.php?module=Gallery2&g2_itemId=256

this dnt look like an eel 
i no snakes swim but would he eat that barra in there?


didnt mean to post it here sorry


----------



## JasonL (Jul 16, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> Would so love to check out some of your snakes Shane. I won't be wanting to touch them but seeing them would be great.
> 
> Simone.



you'll need good eye sight now Simone! You could of asked a month ago!


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 16, 2007)

ShaneBlack said:


> Anytime you want Simone. There's not that much to see, but your welcome anytime.


 Who are you kidding Shane? The first time i came to your place i couldnt sleep that night, i was blown away!!!


----------



## JasonL (Jul 16, 2007)

I don't think I slept for two nights!


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 16, 2007)

The funny thing is Jason, as you'd know, he thinks his place is boring. I dont know anyone who's been there and not walked out amazed.


----------



## dansfish4tea (Jul 16, 2007)

i wanna pat a taipan
i will own 1 one day


----------



## nickamon (Jul 16, 2007)

Rex Neindorf (Alice Springs Reptile Centre) has a Collett's snake which he free-handles - or he did when I saw him do it last year. I had a "dude, you forgot your snake hook!" panic attack. :shock:


----------



## JasonL (Jul 16, 2007)

I'd rather lean over someones fence and pat their cattle dog.


----------



## Hetty (Jul 16, 2007)

dansfish4tea said:


> i wanna pat a taipan
> i will own 1 one day



Just out of curiousity, do you also want to swallow cyanide pills?


----------



## salebrosus (Jul 16, 2007)

JasonL said:


> you'll need good eye sight now Simone! You could of asked a month ago!



I know, i'll be back sooner than i thought though. 
Will be going herping this weekend- first herping expedition since i got here. Not even sure where to begin. The long grass at the back of my place isn't too inviting. I have a python with me that is rejecting it's feeds so rather than waste the dead rat i am chucking it out at the edge of the long grass and it doesn't last long at all. 

That would be awesome Shane-will PM you when I'm back in Sydney for a visit or to stay permanently. Thanks a million.

Simone.


----------



## Vincent (Jul 16, 2007)

JasonL said:


> I'd rather lean over someones fence and pat their cattle dog.


I'd rather pat a Lion than that dog of yours Jason. That's not to be messed with.


----------



## Kali7 (Jul 16, 2007)

If one pays tax, pays health insurance, does not seek publicity if one gets bitten, takes full responsibility for free handling vens, accept the possibility of grevious injury or death, then all the negative opinions from all the conservatives and "wiser than thous" are utterly irrelevant. 

I object far more strongly to individuals telling others what they can or can't do. Don't like it, don't do it. Simple. 

Ride that bike, freefall off a high mountain top, climb that slope, risk getting bitten. Accept responsibility. IMO it is not the risk takers that are litigatious or blame-mongers, but rather those that must live in a confined space with confining rules. Go play god within your own space, leave mine and like minded people's alone.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 16, 2007)

The problem i have with people free handling elapids, like Hoser wether they are voided or not, is kids (like i was) who see it will think hey can go out into the bush and pick up any old snake they see and it wont bite them.


----------



## m.punja (Jul 16, 2007)

true, I got no problems with people free handling. But if you are going to do so you should be very, very careful as to who is around and what sort of impression it will make on these people. I remember at the start of the year my younger brother had a friend around, I was stuffing around in my rep-room and had out a juvi eastern tigersnake holding it in my hand while I did stuff in it's tub and my brothers friend said, 'ohh how cute, can I have a hold now while it's little and harmless so I can tell people I've held a tiger snake.' I didn't even know she had walked into the room, after I laughed at her comment I told her that it could still put someone in a grave. Nowdays, if I am to do such things I ake sure I know who is in the house and where they are first but I don't make a big habbit out of it


----------



## Chris1 (Jul 16, 2007)

herpie boy said:


> cheers for that aslan, well old mate bob is now my new hero. hows the olive eating the hybrid



and check out the size of that goanna!!!


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 16, 2007)

Don't get me wrong i'm sure there are circumstances where free handling is required and i am not against keeping elapids. I am currently working on upgrading my lisence so i can get to death adders. But even if the handler doesn't become complasent, people around them can and that can cause big big problems.


----------



## Ramsayi (Jul 16, 2007)

Nikki_elmo10 said:


> http://www.macherps.com/index.php?module=Gallery2&g2_itemId=238
> what is on the snake - just curious :lol:



That looks like bird netting thats cut into the poor thing. A lot of rescues are carried out because of that stuff.


----------



## Chris1 (Jul 16, 2007)

ouch.


----------



## salebrosus (Jul 16, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> That looks like bird netting thats cut into the poor thing. A lot of rescues are carried out because of that stuff.



No, the snake was nearly beheaded by some wire. The black stuff hanging from the snake is the cotton used by Bob to sew it's head back on. I think Bob left it on to prove the point that an animal that was suppose to die/be euthanased could be saved. It is now a healthy and happy Brown Snake.

Simone.


----------



## Ramsayi (Jul 16, 2007)

johnbowemonie said:


> No, the snake was nearly beheaded by some wire. The black stuff hanging from the snake is the cotton used by Bob to sew it's head back on. I think Bob left it on to prove the point that an animal that was suppose to die/be euthanased could be saved. It is now a healthy and happy Brown Snake.
> 
> Simone.



Fair enough.Rough old suturing but as long as it did the trick.


----------



## salebrosus (Jul 16, 2007)

Ramsayi said:


> Fair enough.Rough old suturing but as long as it did the trick.



LOL yeah it is pretty rough but yep, it did the job. That snake always seemed very placid, but i promised John Cann i would never handle a Brown Snake and to this day i haven't. I know if i broke that promise i'd come a gutser for sure.
There was a thread ages ago by pugsly where he showed his afternoon photos from a visit to Bob's. Alot of people got uptight for him showing them-probably why many won't post pics like that and not wanting to set bad examples etc for younger people- do what i say and not as i do. 

Simone.


----------



## dansfish4tea (Jul 16, 2007)

thenothing said:


> Just out of curiousity, do you also want to swallow cyanide pills?



no i jst want to pat a taipan 
i bet a lot of ppl handle them every now and again


----------



## Kali7 (Jul 16, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> The problem i have with people free handling elapids, like Hoser wether they are voided or not, is kids (like i was) who see it will think hey can go out into the bush and pick up any old snake they see and it wont bite them.



Yeah I was one of those kids too. And? This tip-toe-the-kids-might-copy culture is sick. Its a convenient way of ignoring proper education and proper parenting guidelines. If you don't want your child to see such things, then don't take them to places where they can.

Voided elapids is a great opportunity to explain to children animal cruelty, how it can be utterly misrepresented as education, its pointlessness, and to be wary of people capable of committing such acts.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 16, 2007)

Kali7 said:


> Yeah I was one of those kids too. And? This tip-toe-the-kids-might-copy culture is sick. Its a convenient way of ignoring proper education and proper parenting guidelines. If you don't want your child to see such things, then don't take them to places where they can.
> 
> Voided elapids is a great opportunity to explain to children animal cruelty, how it can be utterly misrepresented as education, its pointlessness, and to be wary of people capable of committing such acts.



Ok i guess i'm wrong. My primary school friends and i must have been the only kids to ever imitate someone we saw catching a brown snake on TV and my friends must have been the only kids to get bitten in the process.

C'mon, do you work with kids? When you were a kid did you ever go and 'make beleive' that you were doing the things you saw on TV etc?

It's not tip toe around the kids and it is not sick. It is not ignoring proper education, free handling can encourage mis-information about the safety of elapids and encourage complacency. AND i said absolutely nothing to promote the use of voids.


----------



## mrboajangles (Jul 16, 2007)

a woma i have had for a long time, from hatchie has never struck or bitten me!! the other day while holding this woma it bit me!!! the shock that it actually bit me totally covered the pain!!! Luckily it didnt inject any venom, it was a dry bite!!! The moral.... no matter how placid a snake might be there is always a good chance it could bite you!! So in my opinion its not a good idea, but nor is riding a motorbike on the road right??


----------



## baxtor (Jul 16, 2007)

Kali7 said:


> If one pays tax, pays health insurance, does not seek publicity if one gets bitten, takes full responsibility for free handling vens, accept the possibility of grevious injury or death, then all the negative opinions from all the conservatives and "wiser than thous" are utterly irrelevant.
> 
> I object far more strongly to individuals telling others what they can or can't do. Don't like it, don't do it. Simple.
> 
> Ride that bike, freefall off a high mountain top, climb that slope, risk getting bitten. Accept responsibility. IMO it is not the risk takers that are litigatious or blame-mongers, but rather those that must live in a confined space with confining rules. Go play god within your own space, leave mine and like minded people's alone.


written much better than I ever could but my thoughts exactly


----------



## Jill (Jul 16, 2007)

I didn't think Woma's were vens. Wasn't there discussion recently that they might get reclassified to a Class 1 in NSW?


----------



## baxtor (Jul 16, 2007)

Jill said:


> I didn't think Woma's were vens. Wasn't there discussion recently that they might get reclassified to a Class 1 in NSW?


I think there is a bit of tongue in cheek in the woma comment


----------



## mrboajangles (Jul 16, 2007)

Jill said:


> I didn't think Woma's were vens. Wasn't there discussion recently that they might get reclassified to a Class 1 in NSW?



Yeah sorry, they are not venomous, I was just being silly, usually a very friendly python!!


----------



## m.punja (Jul 16, 2007)

Yeah its the beardies that are venomous


----------



## beesagtig (Jul 16, 2007)

Yup, gotta watch out for those Blueys aswell, more venom in those fangs than could kill a horse!


----------



## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 17, 2007)

Im with kali and baxtor, what you do in your own home is your business.If you get bitten, its your own fault and you go to hospital,,,or not.
When you post pics in a forum of yourself handling a ven you can surely expect to get a lot of people to have issues with it.
Most of these people will say 'it brings the hobby into disrepute' and' you are setting a bad example for the next generation.'
Simple solution, dont post the pics...


----------



## Sdaji (Jul 17, 2007)

ssssnakeman said:


> Im with kali and baxtor, what you do in your own home is your business.If you get bitten, its your own fault and you go to hospital,,,or not.
> When you post pics in a forum of yourself handling a ven you can surely expect to get a lot of people to have issues with it.
> Most of these people will say 'it brings the hobby into disrepute' and' you are setting a bad example for the next generation.'
> Simple solution, dont post the pics...



If you get bitten, it doesn't just affect you, it gives fuel to those who want to ban the keeping of venomous snakes by private individuals. I'd hate to see us lose that right, and unfortunately it's a very real possibility. We often take what we have for granted until we no longer have it. Other peoples' bites put my license and yours at risk. I don't like that, neither should anyone else who is interested in keeping venomous snakes, or anyone interested in people having the continued ability to legally do so.

Having said that, bites due to inappropriate handling are a frequent occurence, so maybe if it was very difficult to get a license it would be a good thing - less people getting bitten is good for the tax payer (if you think that being a tax payer makes it fair enough if you take the occassional bite, you might want to look at the cost of antivenom and a stay in intensive care!). The community has a need for snake removalists, so those with 'problem wildlife'/'damage mitigation' permits would presumably still be allowed to keep elapids. Perhaps in the future we'll see only the few people who are keen enough to be right into elapids and who are willing to provide a service to the community be allowed to keep them. I'd much rather things stay as they are, which in the long term does depend on people being sensible, but I suppose the alternative has merits.


----------



## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 17, 2007)

> If you get bitten, it doesn't just affect you, it gives fuel to those who want to ban the keeping of venomous snakes by private individuals. I'd hate to see us lose that right, and unfortunately it's a very real possibility. We often take what we have for granted until we no longer have it. Other peoples' bites put my license and yours at risk. I don't like that, neither should anyone else who is interested in keeping venomous snakes, or anyone interested in people having the continued ability to legally do so.


I am curious, this point here only relates to bites that are made public? Because surely most of the bites keepers get go unreported.
Id love to know how many snakebites go unrecorded.

I also do think it is to easy for kids to their venomous keepers licence in this state.jmo


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

All that would acheive is to force people to keep them illegally like exotics.It wouldnt stop people keeping them. When people get a bite they would simply go to hospital and say they were bitten while walking in the bush etc. Medicare would pick up the bill and nothings different. At least if it stays the way it is, they have some kinda control over it. I dont know any elapid keepers that would stop keeping them if they barred them. They would simply let their licences expire.


----------



## hornet (Jul 17, 2007)

you would be suprised how many herpers actually abide by the law. If elapids were banned they would be confinscating them, you wouldnt just be able to let your licence expire and hear no more.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> All that would acheive is to force people to keep them illegally like exotics.It wouldnt stop people keeping them. When people get a bite they would simply go to hospital and say they were bitten while walking in the bush etc. Medicare would pick up the bill and nothings different. At least if it stays the way it is, they have some kinda control over it. I dont know any elapid keepers that would stop keeping them if they barred them. They would simply let their licences expire.



Be that as it may, it doesn't make what Sdaji said any less true.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

I cant understand why everyone keeps going on about bites causing the authorities to clamp down on elapids. Keepers Australia wide get bitten on a monthly basis and you only ever hear about the odd case. I really think people are paranoid. The thing that would cause an uproar is if one escaped and bit an innocent kid or something like that. Is private keepers taking the odd bite really that big a deal? From what i heard from an employee of the CSL, a lot of anti-venom is eventually tossed out from not being used. Even after they give the old stuff to vets it can only be kept for so long after that before becoming useless. I think people are over reacting. Just my opinion.


----------



## Kali7 (Jul 17, 2007)

"Other peoples' bites put my license and yours at risk. "

Only if the bureaucracy is full of like minded people at all times. If that was the case you wouldn't have a license at all. 

Hey cars and buses put my life at risk, and they are still on the road. Subscribe to abject paranoia and all you manage to do is buy into another self perpetuating fear campaign.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> I cant understand why everyone keeps going on about bites causing the authorities to clamp down on elapids. Keepers Australia wide get bitten on a monthly basis and you only ever hear about the odd case. I really think people are paranoid. The thing that would cause an uproar is if one escaped and bit an innocent kid or something like that. Is private keepers taking the odd bite really that big a deal? From what i heard from an employee of the CSL, a lot of anti-venom is eventually tossed out from not being used. Even after they give the old stuff to vets it can only be kept for so long after that before becoming useless. I think people are over reacting. Just my opinion.



Well if you are going to argue that the cost doesn't matter because the antivenom expires think about the cost of a hospital stay.


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 17, 2007)

Hey lets let people ride dirtbikes- but not do freestyle

lets let everyone surf- but not go out if its over6ft

let them drive cars- but not race them

With the way xtreame "hobbys" are now the mainstream, just about anything fun that you want to do has big risks.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

It's a drop in the ocean compared to all the alcohol and tobacco related illness's in the health system. Not to mention all the other drug problems. And what about the amount of motor bike riders (motor cross) that get presented to hospitals across Australia every week? Then there's all the sports related hospital cases (footy,surfing etc). It's never ending. Have you ever been to hospital to visit a keeper bitten by a snake? The hospital staff love it. It's something different from the usual. In no way do hospitals make reptile keepers feel like their a burden on the hospital or the health system. The keepers treated like a celebrity.


----------



## dansfish4tea (Jul 17, 2007)

here here 
I dnt want the Vens to get band ive only jst started my collection (no vens) and cant wait till i can finally purches my first ven which will hopefully be a death adder 
i only have jst got my class1 licence so it will be awhile yet n hope we can still keep them


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> It's a drop in the ocean compared to all the alcohol and tobacco related illness's in the health system. Not to mention all the other drug problems. And what about the amount of motor bike riders (motor cross) that get presented to hospitals across Australia every week? Then there's all the sports related hospital cases (footy,surfing etc). It's never ending. Have you ever been to hospital to visit a keeper bitten by a snake? The hospital staff love it. It's something different from the usual. In no way do hospitals make reptile keepers feel like their a burden on the hospital or the health system. The keepers treated like a celebrity.



Hooray! We'll all be treated like heros if we go to hospital with a snake bite!!! Let's all go out and get bitten. 

I play sport, we are required to pay insurance in the case of injury. Motorbike riders pay higher insurance costs. And hey, other people rort the system because of their stupid actions so why shouldn't we? 

Like i have said before i am sure there are legit reasons for free handling elapids from time to time and occasionally needs to be done. But IMO if you really want a snake to handle stick to a python.


----------



## moosenoose (Jul 17, 2007)

On one hand I'm glad the advanced license in Victoria is so easily obtainable (as I needed one :lol: ), yet on the other hand it’s too open and obtainable and I feel it needs to have some stricter guidelines associated with it, sadly. Simply put, you can cough up your 160 bucks for an advanced license and seek out to buy an inland taipan with zero experience backing you! I’d hope perhaps the breeders of certain snakes are able to sensibly discriminate exactly who they sell these animals to, as it’s certainly getting to a stage where everyone’s actions (as Sdaji has mentioned) will determine exactly where this hobby is going and naturally the more it expands, so to will the number of bites from the various venomous species that will be more readily available.

One thing I've come to find is that people who bring these “exotic” snakes into certain states (eg: snakes that they are not found in these states; Adders etc) run a huge risk to themselves if they are bitten as not all hospitals stock the antivenins for these animals. I’m pretty sure Adder antivenin is only available in the city here as they stock it for the Melbourne zoo, but in the outer suburbs you might be in big trouble and may have to face a massive bill for having yourself airlifted etc. Whether I’m right or wrong here doesn’t completely matter, what matter is keepers of these animals *NEED TO ENSURE* their local hospital can cater for them in an emergency situation. If in doubt, ring and find out, it might be the best phone call you'll ever make!


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

I was just making a point Waruikazi with the celebrity thing in regards to people putting across the image of the poor hospital staff having to treat another snake keeper who's bleeding the health system dry. But i guess that went over your head. There's no problem with people like you sticking to pythons, but dont judge people who want to keep elapids and handle them anyway they want in their own home.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

hornet said:


> you would be suprised how many herpers actually abide by the law. If elapids were banned they would be confinscating them, you wouldnt just be able to let your licence expire and hear no more.


Maybe the python people who keep a few elapids might hand them in. But the people who's complete or majority of their collection are elapids are NEVER going to hand them over. All they'd do is write em all off as dead, just say OPMV or something similar wiped them,you actually dont need to provide an excuse, leave them at a mates house for a month, and cancel your licence. End of story. But to bring a bit of reality back to the argument, banning elapids will never happen. At worst they'll just make it harder to get a licence. And thats probably a good thing.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> One thing I've come to find is that people who bring these “exotic” snakes into certain states (eg: snakes that they are not found in these states; Adders etc) run a huge risk to themselves if they are bitten as not all hospitals stock the antivenins for these animals. I’m pretty sure Adder antivenin is only available in the city here as they stock it for the Melbourne zoo, but in the outer suburbs you might be in big trouble and may have to face a massive bill for having yourself airlifted etc. Whether I’m right or wrong here doesn’t completely matter, what matter is keepers of these animals *NEED TO ENSURE* their local hospital can cater for them in an emergency situation. If in doubt, ring and find out, it might be the best phone call you'll ever make!



This is a very good point. Up here when i do get my cat 4 lisence, which is a good 4 years away, i am not allowed to keep some species exotic to the NT because of the difficulty in getting antivenom.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> I was just making a point Waruikazi with the celebrity thing in regards to people putting across the image of the poor hospital staff having to treat another snake keeper who's bleeding the health system dry. But i guess that went over your head. There's no problem with people like you sticking to pythons, but dont judge people who want to keep elapids and handle them anyway they want in their own home.



No it did not go over my head. It was a ridiculous and stupid argument. You were basically saying that elapid keepers should get themselves bitten for the entertainment of hospital staff.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> No it did not go over my head. It was a ridiculous and stupid argument. You were basically saying that elapid keepers should get themselves bitten for the entertainment of hospital staff.


If thats what you actually think was the point i was making you need to have a good look in the mirror. Did you finish school?


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> If thats what you actually think was the point i was making you need to have a good look in the mirror. Did you finish school?



I'm going to ignore your question because you are now trying to make this debate personal. If that was not the point that you were trying to make you worded it really really poorly. I don't recall anyone saying 'poor hospital staff' i recall people saying that the cost to health system of a keeper who gets bitten by an elapid is very high. All effort should be made to not get bitten if a keeper decides they want to keep a dangerously venomous snake.


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

You seem to be the only one who misread it. I'm not making it personal, i just cant believe your response. Your just so far off the mark. But i totally agree with your last sentence.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> You seem to be the only one who misread it. I'm not making it personal, i just cant believe your response. Your just so far off the mark. But i totally agree with your last sentence.
> 
> Have you ever been to hospital to visit a keeper bitten by a snake? The hospital staff love it. It's something different from the usual. In no way do hospitals make reptile keepers feel like their a burden on the hospital or the health system. The keepers treated like a celebrity.



You have said it is OK because the hospital staff apparently like it? how have i mis-read it???


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> You have said it is OK because the hospital staff apparently like it? how have i mis-read it???


 Where do the letters OK appear in my post? Your freaking me out. I have simply stated the attitude of the hospital staff when i have visited a mate in there on a couple of occasions. Not once have i said it's ok or cool to put yourself in that situation. Your a concern.


----------



## bredli84 (Jul 17, 2007)

his point was that to the hospital staff, a keeper bitten by a snake is such a rare occurence that it's entertaining for them. he was saying this to indicate that it is RARE


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

BIG RYANO said:


> Where do the letters OK appear in my post? Your freaking me out. I have simply stated the attitude of the hospital staff when i have visited a mate in there on a couple of occasions. Not once have i said it's ok or cool to put yourself in that situation. Your a concern.



Then what did you hope to get across by making that statement? No one ever said that hospital staff hate it when snake bite victims are admitted to hospital. I highly doubt that i was the only person to have read your post the way i did. Wether you meant it that way or not, the best you can say about your post is that it was worded babdly.


----------



## Macca (Jul 17, 2007)

This thread seems to have degenerated. I will not enter into the debate on free-handling. I have seen a number of snakebite case studies, which is certainly why I choose not to free-handle. 

However, Moosenoose makes an extremely good point in the availability of antivenom. Hospitals will only stock antivenom for locally occurring species. Zoos with larger reptile collections, like Taronga, Melbourne etc, do keep antivenom for the species that they have. I would suggest that any keeper who is not aware of the closest antivenom for the species they keep is totally irresponsible.

A couple of NSW facts for you.
The only hospital in NSW with Taipan antivenom is Westmead Hospital.
The only two hospitals in NSW with Death Adder antivenom are Westmead and Gosford.
A number of hospitals carry Polyvalent anitvenom, however about half do not.

If I was bitten by a Taipan, I know I would certainly want the Taipan antivenom rather than the polyvalent.

If you are not sure about antivenom in your local area of NSW, check the link below.
http://www.ciap.health.nsw.gov.au/downloads/guidelines/Snake_spider_guidelines_GL2007_006_A1.pdf


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> Then what did you hope to get across by making that statement? No one ever said that hospital staff hate it when snake bite victims are admitted to hospital. I highly doubt that i was the only person to have read your post the way i did. Wether you meant it that way or not, the best you can say about your post is that it was worded babdly.


 No probs. We'll have to agree to disagree. I dont want this thing to go on forever. I guess everyone interprets stuff differently.


----------



## da_donkey (Jul 17, 2007)

Thats a great link Macca, very interesting.

I was aware of Wyong and Gosford hospitals and the ARP because they are all local to me, but i did not relise the lack of Taipan antivenom in NSW hospitals :shock:.

donk


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

bredli84 said:


> his point was that to the hospital staff, a keeper bitten by a snake is such a rare occurence that it's entertaining for them. he was saying this to indicate that it is RARE



Sorry mate you are wrong that can't of beenthe point of his post, this earlier post of his negates that.



BIG RYANO said:


> I cant understand why everyone keeps going on about bites causing the authorities to clamp down on elapids. Keepers Australia wide get bitten on a monthly basis and you only ever hear about the odd case. I really think people are paranoid. The thing that would cause an uproar is if one escaped and bit an innocent kid or something like that. Is private keepers taking the odd bite really that big a deal? From what i heard from an employee of the CSL, a lot of anti-venom is eventually tossed out from not being used. Even after they give the old stuff to vets it can only be kept for so long after that before becoming useless. I think people are over reacting. Just my opinion.


----------



## Colin (Jul 17, 2007)

Splitmore said:


> Can I just ask why you seem to feel the need to free handle venemous snakes??
> I love the fact that most people who seem to make a habit of it also seem very keen to have their pictures taken in the process, or do it in front of a crowd. All is it is someone trying to show off or make up for something else they are obviously lacking. There's no secret to it, most elapids do become very placid in captivity. Nothing justifies the risk, so say it's less stressful to a snake to be free handled than using a hook is complete rubbish.



That is SO TRUE


----------



## bredli84 (Jul 17, 2007)

not necessarily waruikazi, a keeper geting bitten every month australia wide would mean that most hospitals would only treat one every couple of years. when u compare that to car crash victims, assualts, sporting injuries etc you could consider that to be very rare


----------



## salebrosus (Jul 17, 2007)

Macca said:


> A couple of NSW facts for you.
> The only hospital in NSW with Taipan antivenom is Westmead Hospital.
> The only two hospitals in NSW with Death Adder antivenom are Westmead and Gosford.
> A number of hospitals carry Polyvalent anitvenom, however about half do not.
> ...


Your bloody lucky to find that out, i tried to find out before i upgraded my licence to Category 2 vens and they told me they weren't allowed to tell me. I was trying find out so that if i got a Copperhead and an accident happened then i knew that the local hospital would have what i need. Made me think twice about getting that licence.

Simone.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

bredli84 said:


> not necessarily waruikazi, a keeper geting bitten every month australia wide would mean that most hospitals would only treat one every couple of years. when u compare that to car crash victims, assualts, sporting injuries etc you could consider that to be very rare



ok sorry i shouldn't have started arguing statistics. But i stand by my main point. The risk does not justify the small ammount of pleasure and the huge cost a bite could encur someone may get from letting an elapid crawl all over them.


----------



## bredli84 (Jul 17, 2007)

im not taking sides here mate, just trying to interpret for you


----------



## Scleropages (Jul 17, 2007)

Everyone should keep there hands off the snake!!!


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

bredli84 said:


> im not taking sides here mate, just trying to interpret for you



Thanks mate, i appreciate your concer .


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

bredli84 said:


> not necessarily waruikazi, a keeper geting bitten every month australia wide would mean that most hospitals would only treat one every couple of years. when u compare that to car crash victims, assualts, sporting injuries etc you could consider that to be very rare


EXACTLY. Thanks for explaining that to him.


----------



## snakesrule (Jul 17, 2007)

This has turned in to a load crap. We might just as well all go out and neck our selves now or just ban every thing now 
Because everytime I watch the news somebody has died from some cause whether it be road, rail, air accident, fire electricution ,drowning,shark attack or snake bite .
These things are accidents or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Some are caused through negligence some arent .
When it is all said we are just human and humans make mistakes some sillier than others but they are mistakes and our hospitals, & cemeteries are full of victoms of human error.


----------



## Macca (Jul 17, 2007)

Hey Simone,

I assume the people you spoke in the licencing department did not know where antivenom stocks were held.

If you were to get a copperhead, you would be pretty safe in knowing that antivenom (Tiger Snake Antivenom) is available in most hospitals. As many of the local species on the east coast come under Tiger Snake antivenom (ie. Tiger Snakes, Copperhead Snakes, Red-bellied Black Snakes, Rough-scaled Snakes), it means most of the hospitals stock this antivenom. However, it would be handy to know if the antivenom in your local hospital, although listed, is up to date and not expired.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

Maybe i am way off the mark here. But there is a difference between risks, mistakes and neglegance. Risks come with doing anything, you could trip on somthing hit your head and die. Mistakes can and do happen, you forget to tighten your wheel nuts after changing a tire on your car, have a crash and hurt youself. Neglegance is when you know the risks, you know what can be done to minimise or eliminate these risks yet you do not do them.

To me free handling is neglegent, the person knows the risks and what can be done to minimise/eliminate them but they choose not to.


----------



## moosenoose (Jul 17, 2007)

This is a good read: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_01_010107/jan10788_fm.html




> Thirty minutes after arrival, he developed burning pain around the bite, associated with nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, upper abdominal cramping, and diaphoresis.



Sounds like a load of fun hey? I wonder if all of those symptoms hit in quick succession :lol:


----------



## BIG RYANO (Jul 17, 2007)

This will be my last comment on this thread (hopefully). Only an idiot would want to be bitten by a dangerous snake. If someone freehandles dangerous snakes they have to be fully prepared for the fact that they WILL spend some time in hospital at some stage of their life. Having said that, i've got a mate that freehandles elapids and has done his whole life. From about age 12 to now 36. Thats over twenty years freehandling. Never in public. And i'm talking about all of them, Adders, Browns, thru to Coastal and Inland Taipans.On a daily basis. In that time he has been to hospital three times for anti-venom. Now, i know of individuals working in zoo's, reptile parks and venom places that have been hospitalised more times than that even with all their safety precautions. Like anything there's a skill to it. Theres always going to be idiots try and do it that arent capable. They dont last in the elapid game too long. And finally, i dont believe that licenced keepers being bitten threatens peoples right to keep dangerous elapids. That will come when a member of the public is bitten by an escapee. JMO


----------



## Scleropages (Jul 17, 2007)

Macca said:


> If you are not sure about antivenom in your local area of NSW, check the link below.
> http://www.ciap.health.nsw.gov.au/downloads/guidelines/Snake_spider_guidelines_GL2007_006_A1.pdf


 

I'm moving to westmead :shock:

And never handling a death adder , unless I have to and its in westmead hospital.


----------



## ilovepythons (Jul 17, 2007)

It seems to be an assumption in this thread that if you are bitten, all you need is some antivenom and you will be fine a couple of days later. It does not work that way. Even with antivenom therapy snakebites carry a significant risk of long term complications, allergic reactions, serum sickness, kidney damage etc. 

The risk of an allergic reaction to venom, or more commonly antivenom needs to be taken into acount for all keepers, particularly long-term keepers. A common assumption is the only way you can become exposed to venom is through milking snakes, or through previous snakebites. Again, this isn't at all correct. Pretty much every time you come into contact with a venomous snake you are coming into contact with dried venom which can lead to severe, life threatening allergic reactions at a later date if you are bitten. Whether this be through cleaning dried venom off the glass front of a cage that a snake has struck at, or through the handling of bitten, yet refused food items. 

Basically the moral of the story is don't get bitten.


----------



## m.punja (Jul 17, 2007)

I knew this thread was going to get good.  Took a while :lol: And when my tiger had a chew on me and I made the trip to the hospital (turned out to be a dry bite & wasn't related to free handling) most of the nurses weren't impressed and didn't think of me as a hero. (although the doctor took the chance to teach the newer nurses what to do in reguards to snakebites) There were two nurses however that were interested in the fact I was a keeper, one asked if I knew anyone selling a female beardy and the other told me about her pet coastal python:lol:


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 17, 2007)

m.punja said:


> I knew this thread was going to get good.  Took a while :lol: And when my tiger had a chew on me and I made the trip to the hospital (turned out to be a dry bite & wasn't related to free handling) most of the nurses weren't impressed and didn't think of me as a hero. (although the doctor took the chance to teach the newer nurses what to do in reguards to snakebites) There were two nurses however that were interested in the fact I was a keeper, one asked if I knew anyone selling a female beardy and the other told me about her pet coastal python:lol:



that's not right. You should have been signing autographs for them because they love a bit of change :lol:


----------



## m.punja (Jul 17, 2007)

I would have been signing autographs, but I left home without remember all the photos I left behind of my free handling elapids  ah well. Next time  Since they got so much antivenom there :lol:


(take none of the above seriously )


----------



## chip (Jul 17, 2007)

Its not a matter of IF someone gets bitten, its WHEN.

How many times have the people that free handle their elapids been bitten??????? At least once


----------



## m.punja (Jul 17, 2007)

ahhh it was a dry bite...:lol: Nah I'm just kidding  But it is a bit of a dead end argument any way you go because every time some says somthing like 'when free handling its not a matter of if its a matter of when' doesn't that count for owning elapids full stop? just having them in you house creates that risk. Handling increases that risk. Feeding increases that risk. Cleaning the enclosure increases that risk. Free handling increases that risk. Force feeding/assist shedding increases that risk. Getting bite is a risk elapid keepers are taking reguardless of wether they free handle or not. Not that I am a supporter of free handling. Nor do I care what people do in their own homes (within law.) 
 Now I'm going to get blasted by someone...question is who? :lol: 

lets put some more petrol on the fire eh?
We dont need to worry about loosing our lic! Not when we have Hoser fighting for us!!!!!

God...I can't believe I just said that :?:?


----------



## Kali7 (Jul 17, 2007)

Bwahahahahahahaha


----------



## baxtor (Jul 17, 2007)

chip said:


> Its not a matter of IF someone gets bitten, its WHEN.
> 
> How many times have the people that free handle their elapids been bitten??????? At least once


I've been waiting for it for just on thirty years now. This same old line gets wheeled out every time a thread like this starts up.


----------



## Bombie (Jul 17, 2007)

*venomous*

i reckon one of the best ways to make people see sense is to show them the evidence from other peoples bites, and to read about the on-going problems those people can have!
does anyone remember a link to a site showing photos of a young guy who got bitten by a rattler i think it was (i know its not aussie but its still important!) 
they showed a series of photos from when he got bittewn and followed it through his treatments over many months. they were horrific pictures and it certainly opened my eyes a bit to the consequences and risks associated with something like that. i'll see if i can find the link and post it later.


----------



## herpie boy (Jul 22, 2007)

thanks everyone for your input, but i didnt start this thread to hear opinions and politics. i wanted to know who handles , not who is too scared to handle and try and justify it by whinging about the dangers. each to their own , if i die i will die doing what i love....................................hows that for fuel to the fire m punja. hahahahahahaha. i love contraversy


----------



## m.punja (Jul 22, 2007)

w00tw00t


----------



## trevor (Aug 15, 2007)

i would just like to say that i dont think that most people would free handle to try and be mucho,i myself own a black tiger and free handle him regularly but not to brag,act tough or other,only do in private when home by myself, no spectators,no pictures,just for the sheer love of my elapid


----------



## BIG RYANO (Aug 17, 2007)

trevor said:


> i would just like to say that i dont think that most people would free handle to try and be mucho,i myself own a black tiger and free handle him regularly but not to brag,act tough or other,only do in private when home by myself, no spectators,no pictures,just for the sheer love of my elapid


Well said Trevor.


----------



## dentech (Aug 17, 2007)

well if ya a virgin find some one to handle your snake first lol


----------



## stagz (Aug 17, 2007)

Aslan said:


> There are some good shots in this gallery...
> 
> http://www.macherps.com/index.php?module=Gallery2&g2_itemId=218




wow i love the lizard in the banner on that webpage


----------

