# OPMV defamation rumors



## haymista (Apr 27, 2009)

A lot of you are aware of the OPMV defamation thread posted by Dave Macintosh representing Pilbara Pythons a couple of weeks ago. My friend and I are in fact the buyers mentioned and want to clear up some rumors regarding the matter. We received three Stimson’s pythons from Luke and within 24 hours of owning them one of them died. We decided to take it to the vet for a post mortem ($140). We sent the dead python away for a histopathology exam ($200). This revealed several symptoms consistent with OPMV. Upon performing the post mortem and reading the histopathology exam our vet, David Vella, advised us that this was the probable cause of death. 
When we heard this we called Luke and advised him of the situation, notifying him that the histopathology exam turned up consistent with OPMV. 
I have several hatchies and have gained a lot of experience from helpful people I have met through the forums and herp societies. However I have never had a snake die on me before so my friend and I spoke to a few experienced breeders for advice. Unfourtunately news spreads fast and Dave wrote up his post.

Kind Regards 

Pete (haymista) and Paul (Arbok)


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## arbok (Apr 27, 2009)

reports

links to higher reso, 

http://s695.photobucket.com/albums/vv318/stellatus09/?action=view&current=Histopathology_Exam-1.jpg

http://s695.photobucket.com/albums/vv318/stellatus09/?action=view&current=Medical_Record.jpg


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## Mrs I (Apr 27, 2009)

This could be devistating (as it was for you) to many other people and collections.

But it does make you wonder how many others will do the right thing and not on sell something that 'may be' infected or destroy collections not showing signs.

Good Luck with what ever the outcome is...


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## itbites (Apr 27, 2009)

Well this is rather interesting news..!


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## Noongato (Apr 27, 2009)

Whats all this mean? Are we supposed to all panic right now?


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## haymista (Apr 27, 2009)

Understand that the thread was made to stop rumors, not to force luke into quarantine


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## beakz (Apr 27, 2009)

*wow*

and the truth is out i feel sorry for ya mate


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## Kersten (Apr 27, 2009)

So just to clarify, there's no new news? No confirmation that it definitely is OPMV?


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## herpkeeper (Apr 27, 2009)

Anything "consistant with OPMV should be treated as OPMV. Lets just hope that this matter is handled a bit more maturely, truthfuly & responsably than the initial deformation thread.
cheers HK.


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## arbok (Apr 27, 2009)

Kersten said:


> So just to clarify, there's no new news? No confirmation that it definitely is OPMV?


 
this is what everyone was asking for in the OPMV defamation thread, it says consistent with opmv, is this not good enough?


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## funcouple (Apr 27, 2009)

hope this isnt as big as it could be. there could be a number of people with both small and large collections that this could affect. wishing everyone a happy outcome


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## levis04 (Apr 27, 2009)

I am sorry to hear about you snakes, and sorry you had to go through all this, i just hope this doesnt turn you off reptiles all together!!! 
As for 'OPMV' i would have to agree with herpkeeper, treat it seriously!


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## Kersten (Apr 27, 2009)

arbok said:


> this is what everyone was asking for in the OPMV defamation thread, it says consistent with opmv, is this not good enough?



I could have sworn I saw a post from one of the two of you saying that you didn't think it was OPMV....I think my wits must beaddled because I can't see it now. Time to buy new glasses.

As for good enough, I'm not sure what it is you wan't me to say here. OPMV consistent could be anything. Or it could be OPMV, since someone in the previous thread mentioned there would be further testing I made the logical conclusion you'd created the thread to share the confirmation. My mistake.


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## haymista (Apr 27, 2009)

OPMV or not it shouldnt be ignored. As far as i know the next step in further testing can be very costly


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## arbok (Apr 27, 2009)

i could have sworn I saw a post from one of the two of you saying that you didn't think it was OPMV....I think my wits must beaddled because I can't see it now. Time to buy new glasses.

As for good enough, I'm not sure what it is you wan't me to say here. OPMV consistent could be anything. Or it could be OPMV, I *share the same view as herpkeeper, anything consistent should be treated as OPMV.*

since someone in the previous thread mentioned there would be further testing I made the logical conclusion you'd created the thread to share the confirmation. My mistake. *I dont recall myself or haymista making such a post, i will back log just to make sure. *


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## Kersten (Apr 27, 2009)

Well that's very sad and I would imagine hard to deal with not only losing that animal, but having to put down the rest, especially on the basis of an OPMV consistent diagnosis and not having that 100% confirmation. My condolences.

Hmm, I didn't say it was yourself or haymista who mentioned the further testing, in fact until this thread I didn't even know you were the two (one?) person/people involved. No, I believe it may have been Luke or Dave who mentioned it. It seemed logical that this would all be brought up again if there had indeed been more tests and the results confirmed.


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 27, 2009)

> could have sworn I saw a post from one of the two of you saying that you didn't think it was OPMV....I think my wits must beaddled because I can't see it now. Time to buy new glasses.


 
I saw it too - My brain is no spinning after looking for it so I'm guessing it was edited out in the specified time frame so the post does not say "Edited by blah blah blah" at the bottom of the post.


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## Kersten (Apr 27, 2009)

If you edit the post within a short time that edit notification doesn't come up. I know this because I always make like 5 spelling mistakes in my posts and have to edit them fairly quickly so I don't look as dumb as I can be


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## arbok (Apr 27, 2009)

Well that's very sad and I would imagine hard to deal with not only losing that animal, but having to put down the rest, especially on the basis of an OPMV consistent diagnosis. My condolences. *Who ever said euthanising a collection was the only way to act on OPMV? im going into lock down until im satisfied that my collection is clean, how ever long that may take.*

Hmm, I didn't say it was yourself or haymista who mentioned the further testing, in fact until this thread I didn't even know you were the two (one?) person/people involved. No, I believe it may have been Luke or Dave who mentioned it. It seemed logical that this would all be brought up again if there had indeed been more tests and the results confirmed.
*so your saying we should just forget about it unless we can get an 100% confirmation?*


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## funcouple (Apr 27, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Well that's very sad and I would imagine hard to deal with not only losing that animal, but having to put down the rest, especially on the basis of an OPMV consistent diagnosis and not having that 100% confirmation. My condolences.
> 
> Hmm, I didn't say it was yourself or haymista who mentioned the further testing, in fact until this thread I didn't even know you were the two (one?) person/people involved. No, I believe it may have been Luke or Dave who mentioned it. It seemed logical that this would all be brought up again if there had indeed been more tests and the results confirmed.


i think you will find this thread has been started to show vet evidence could be seen as proof against Pilbara pythons defamation thread afew weeks back


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## Kersten (Apr 27, 2009)

arbok said:


> Well that's very sad and I would imagine hard to deal with not only losing that animal, but having to put down the rest, especially on the basis of an OPMV consistent diagnosis. My condolences. *Who ever said euthanising a collection was the only way to act on OPMV? im going into lock down until im satisfied that my collection is clean, how ever long that may take.*
> 
> Hmm, I didn't say it was yourself or haymista who mentioned the further testing, in fact until this thread I didn't even know you were the two (one?) person/people involved. No, I believe it may have been Luke or Dave who mentioned it. It seemed logical that this would all be brought up again if there had indeed been more tests and the results confirmed.
> *so your saying we should just forget about it unless we can get an 100% confirmation?*


A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.

I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not.


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## seumas12345 (Apr 27, 2009)

Kersten said:


> A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.
> 
> I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not.


 
Kersten I saw the post aswell. PilbaraPythons stated that they would pay whatever costs were necessary to have samples sent to the USA to be 100% sure if it was OPMV or not...


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## arbok (Apr 27, 2009)

A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.

I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not. *I apologise, i have my gaurd up a fair bit atm and shouldnt jump to conclusions.*

*to answer your questions, this thread is in response to the OPMV defamation thread. *


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## Kersten (Apr 27, 2009)

arbok said:


> A great many people have suggested in the past that that is an appropriate response. It seems to be the common APS suggestion. Good luck with the quarantine.
> 
> I understand you're upset but please don't twist my words. As I said, someone previously mentioned further tests and I merely asked to clarify. Don't assume that I am passing judgement on you or suggesting you should forget anything, because I'm not. *I apologise, i have my gaurd up a fair bit atm and shouldnt jump to conclusions.*
> 
> *to answer your questions, this thread is in response to the OPMV defamation thread. *



No problem.

I see.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 27, 2009)

Kerston
I don’t think Haymista is claiming here that the Reptile supplied had OPMV, just that the histopathology report says consistent with OPMV not that it is OPMV.

Why do we believe it’s not OPMV? Simple, absolutely no history of sick or dead adult reptiles in Lukes collection from disease or virus ever. 

Even carriers of OPMV eventually display symptoms after 8 months or so.
This doesn’t at all rule out another unknown retro virus however and if it is, you can not conclude it is in anyway as volatile as OPMV. 

Should Luke destroy his entire collection solely on this report when the well known systematic signs of the disease are at complete odds with what is happening in his collection? Of course not.

Should he still lock down his collection and cease trading until he see what happens with his reptiles for the next two seasons? Yes he should. 

Herpkeeper
I am so pleased you liked the way I handled my previous thread. 

Regards Dave


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## seumas12345 (Apr 28, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Kerston
> I don’t think Haymista is claiming here that the Reptile supplied had OPMV, just that the histopathology report says consistent with OPMV not that it is OPMV.
> 
> Why do we believe it’s not OPMV? Simple, absolutely no history of sick or dead adult reptiles in Lukes collection from disease or virus ever.
> ...


 
Why not just pay to get the tests done in America (just pointing it out coz that's what you said you were going to do)...?


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## arbok (Apr 28, 2009)

Should he still lock down his collection and cease trading until he see what happens with his reptiles for the next two seasons? Yes he should. *This of course raises the question, is he going to?*


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

Indeed, as I said Dave, I asked the question having made the assumption further testing had been done as previously mentioned. It seemed the logical conclusion given that the last thing we had heard was that more testing were in the pipeline.

To be honest, I don't really have a preference for that particular method of dealing wih OPMV - mainly because like most people who are in the safe position of watching from the sidelines and not having to make the decision, I've never given thought to how I myself would handle it. As I said, it just seems to be the general consensus here for whatever reason. 

I'm sure Luke will make whatever decision he feels is best in order to deal with the problem, as have Haymista and Arbok. Given that as you mentioned, he hasn't had any cause for concern before this I'm sure he's just as shocked and upset as they are, with just as much reason.


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Kerston
> I don’t think Haymista is claiming here that the Reptile supplied had OPMV, just that the histopathology report says consistent with OPMV not that it is OPMV.
> 
> Why do we believe it’s not OPMV? Simple, absolutely no history of sick or dead adult reptiles in Lukes collection from disease or virus ever.
> ...


Dave (pilbara pythons) please dont think this is an attack against you. ive copied and pasted this paragraph from snake rescue. http://www.snakerescue.com.au/index.php?link=opmv
Infected animals can carry the virus for many months with out symptoms and as a snake farmer in the US wrote “I lost 40 snakes to this virus” in a few weeks. There has also been cases of asymptomatic carriers where the animal can be a carrier of the virus without developing symptoms. The Australian Reptile Park had a mass die off in 2002 which was apparently the first reported case in Australia . At this stage there is no test available for the virus on live animals, it can only be tested for after the animal has died and this can be an expensive process. 
as it has said some animals can be carriers without developing symtoms.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 28, 2009)

seumas
This was my original intention and this may still happen, however current veterinary opinion and advice given to me is that this expense will only prove what we already believe based on history and known on set and spread of this disease.
For Luke to have every single adult reptile in his collection to be a carrier only and defy the known time period by a huge time period from eventual on set of that disease of those carriers, clearly tells the experienced, that this can’t be OPMV.
At the end of the day, it may indeed make others feel good reading that it isn't by a report from the states but that result would simply overlook the fact that there still realistically remains an unknown retro virus.

One recent example was with Dr Danny Brown announcement to the reptile keeping community that he had OPMV over a year ago. That virus was eventually cultivated (the first time ever in Australia I am told) and proved to be not OPMV. The reality though, was he still had his collection devastated by a horrible retro virus and to this day this virus remains unnamed and maybe even unique to Australia.

Arbok
You have been personally told that Luke has taken appropriate lock down and cease of trade. If you question his integrity, then that is your prerogative but I for one trust Lukes word.


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## girdheinz (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm pleased to see a public lockdown has been declared to prevent the spread of whatever virus is responsible for the death of the animal. I would prefer to see this from Iceman himself but it appears you are his spokesperson PilbaraPythons?

OPMV has been said to manifest itself in many different ways in the US but eventually leads to a die off of at least a 1/3 of an entire collection. The issue of carriers from there is not entirely understood hence the reason for a lockdown period.

I applaud the young recipients in this situation for notifying the public. It is a hard thing to do in this industry with the intimidation tatcics sometimes used to silence people. I'm not implying that this is the case in this situation but nevertheless it can be daunting to come forward with this kind of information.

The original thread posted by PilbarapPthons implied that this was vicious rumors out to discredit Iceman. This alone probably made it even harder for the recipients to go public. It appeared that by discrediting the source of the information before becoming public might stop this occuring. I hope that wasn't the intention of the original thread, but judging by the responses posted it certainly wouldn't have helped Arbok and Haymistas courage to come foward.

Hopefully this public announcement will keep everybody honest in this situation as transparancy is of upmost importance when trying to control a viral outbreak. I hope for 1 Iceman would notify everyone he has dealt or exchanged animals with in the last 6 months as so they can be aware if anything out of the ordinary occurs.

I like others understand this must be devestating for Iceman particularly if it has caught him offguard. I would be terrified of the unknown waitng and watching for something to happen. Maybe in time these experiences of how we deal with such situations can educate us all.

My only other concerns are the connections involved here. From memory there are several keepers associated with Iceman in a syndicate of keepers. I remember True Blue stating that Iceman was taking over all the pilbara BHP's for example. Is this kind of passing over of animals common practice? 

All in all i commend all parties involved to plead get it out publically. Hopefully this should help in the conservation of our captive collections. 

Gird


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> So just to clarify, there's no new news? No confirmation that it definitely is OPMV?



I was thinking the same. I know one would prefer to treat it as OPMV but the vet hasn't done a pathology test to confirm it. Just saying yeah ok we'll say it is because the symptoms match not sure thats enough for me. There are other conditions that can mimic the symptoms - eating rodents after they had eaten rat poison is a classic example, also snakes can develop neurological problems from other causes. I worked with a python at a park who was un-co-ordinated but it was discovered she was going blind in one eye.

So please, get the test done properly rather than just speculating. Save a lot of money and heartache. O course you still need to lockdown and quarantine until it has been confirmed negative but don't accept "consistent with" without getting second opinion or something to say it definitely was.


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## girdheinz (Apr 28, 2009)

Are you serious mysnakes au? Open the attatchments in arbok's post. A comprehnsive pathology report was done http://s695.photobucket.com/albums/vv318/stellatus09/?action=view&current=Histopathology_Exam-1.jpg


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## girdheinz (Apr 28, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> O course you still need to lockdown and quarantine until it has been confirmed negative but don't accept "consistent with" without getting second opinion or something to say it definitely was.


 
You know that is impossible. Even the USA tests have deemed to be inconsistent in recent testing. There is no way 100% that this virus can be confirmed unless the virus can be cultured which has never been done in this country. "Consistent with" is the best your going to get full stop.


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2009)

Well I guess it depends how good the vet is. If you put the idea in their head some will just write that without considering the symptoms could be consistent with anything else.

Consistent with OPMV - Is that what they write on ALL OPMV cases? To me, its telling me its a high possibility but isn't saying it definitely is. Just says its typical but not that it is.

I know, I am not trying to defend anyone or block out the thoughts that it very well is that, I just think the wording in that report isn't saying it definitely is OPMV, only that the symptoms are consistent and typical. To me, that says it is a high possibility but still a chance it has died from other causes.


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## geckodan (Apr 28, 2009)

I think as a group we need to stop using the term OPMV and start using the term CVE (Contagious Viral Encephalitis). This term encompasses a syndrome of neurological diseases caused by a virus. This is the only thing we can be sure of. Our histopathologists are seeing little red dots inside cells. Nothing more. These little red dots look exactly like those that would be seen with OPMV - hence the diagnosis "consistent with OPMV". The problem lies in the fact that there are at least 3, probably 4 different viruses, all killing snakes in the same way, all looking like little red dots to the pathologist BUT only OPMV has, at this stage, made it into the textbooks so thats what they have to call it. The second side of this is that if it is one of the other 2 or 3 viruses (which is far more likely) then OPMV testing in the states will almost always give a negative result because its more likely that you are dealing with one of the others. In my case, only 2 of the 23 specimens I sent away to reasearchers in WA grew a virus (not because the others were clear but because the virus is very difficult to culture). THis was the first time this had been achieved in Australia. IT was not OPMV yet it had a clinical picture identical to OPMV. The final electron microscopy results have not yet been supplied to me so the specific nature of the virus is not identified as yet. 

Loose your hangups on the name OPMV. Whilst we split hairs on the precise nature and name of the disease, more things die, more collections are infected and more keepers shrug there shoulders and ignore the problem. I see, whatever the problem is in Australia, that it will be endemic in 80% of collections in this country within 10 years with the current attitudes. Regardless of the causative agent it is evil, unpredictable, contagious and there is more about it that we just don't know - call it CVE (Contagious Viral Encephalitis), clump them all together and treat them all the same until we know more (which is going to take a bloody long time). How you deal with them is your perogative. There are no hard and fast rules as we DON'T KNOW WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH.

Remember:
CVE
CVE
CVE
CVE
CVE


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## redbellybite (Apr 28, 2009)

In all honesty both parties involved are doing the best thing at the moment that is LOCK DOWN 
no one wants to jump the gun at this stage ..
I wish all that are involved a good outcome in the long run .


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## CodeRed (Apr 28, 2009)

So Dan we know you have a close affiliation with PilbaraPythons and iceman as part of the breeders syndicate. Are you saying that what killed this snake is likely to be the same virus as what killed your snakes?

I personally would like to know just how many animals have been exchanged between the members of this syndicate and who is likely to be at risk.


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## seumas12345 (Apr 28, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> In all honesty both parties involved are doing the best thing at the moment that is LOCK DOWN
> no one wants to jump the gun at this stage ..
> I wish all that are involved a good outcome in the long run .


 
I think that is the main issue RBB, that if the general concensus between the parties involved is to "Not take the risk if it could be OPMV (or CVE ) and LOCK DOWN" then shouldn't that mean that every single person that has bought a python from these parties in the last year be doing the same? It is very well for iceman and pilbara pythons to go into lockdown mode, but if in six months time they discover that it is actually OPMV, then i fear it will be too late for the others that had previously bought from them and hadn't done the same...


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## melgalea (Apr 28, 2009)

who is luke...i think i have missed something....


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## geckodan (Apr 28, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> So Dan we know you have a close affiliation with PilbaraPythons and iceman as part of the breeders syndicate. Are you saying that what killed this snake is likely to be the same virus as what killed your snakes?
> 
> I personally would like to know just how many animals have been exchanged between the members of this syndicate and who is likely to be at risk.



I had obtained 80% directly as wild caught specimens out of WA (the safest source of animals in my opinion) The remainder came from non affiliated sources in QLD. So in answer to your question, "No idea if its the same".


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## redbellybite (Apr 28, 2009)

seumas12345 said:


> I think that is the main issue RBB, that if the general concensus between the parties involved is to "Not take the risk if it could be OPMV (or CVE ) and LOCK DOWN" then shouldn't that mean that every single person that has bought a python from these parties in the last year be doing the same? It is very well for iceman and pilbara pythons to go into lockdown mode, but if in six months time they discover that it is actually OPMV, then i fear it will be too late for the others that had previously bought from them and hadn't done the same...


 Well what are you trying to say ? that all snakes involved should be put down ?
Lock down at this stage is about the only logical thing to do ,and if owners that bought from this breeder fear it could involve them as well then yes lock down for those snakes as well .
as I said before dont jump the gun ..


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## JasonL (Apr 28, 2009)

Good work Danny, I have had my doubts for many years about the whole OPMV thing, and have always thought it was more than one virus, and we are most probably dealing with a few native forms as well as OS ones. I might go a step further and say I believe that not all these viruses effect all snakes the same way, and believe that a strong snake could probably harbour such a virus for many many years without it showing. Some of these viruses may not be as bad as what we generally think when we think of such things as "OPMV" wiping out every snake in a collection within weeks, and may only cause death in weaker animals or during times of stress ect, staying alive in collections undetected thus making them easily and unknowingly spread from collection to collection.


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## Sturdy (Apr 28, 2009)

geckodan said:


> . Regardless of the causative agent it is evil, unpredictable, contagious and there is more about it that we just don't know - call it CVE (Contagious Viral Encephalitis), clump them all together and treat them all the same until we know more (which is going to take a bloody long time). How you deal with them is your perogative. There are no hard and fast rules as we DON'T KNOW WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH.
> 
> Remember:
> CVE
> ...



100% agree,
We should al start using CVE,

as to other mentioned posts this strain of CVE could be anything,

Does anyone know of any further testing that has occured recently on CVE in general?


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## wokka (Apr 28, 2009)

It is my understanding that "the red dots in cells" are consistent with a number of virus apart from the big O. Perhaps the labs should be encouraged to use the wording "cosistent with CVE" to get the message out there that there are likely to be other Contagious Viral Encephalitis types out there which may behave differently to the big O.


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## matt86 (Apr 28, 2009)

It's really scary hey...
The hardest part is, nobody can tell you what these viruses actually are, or how we, as a community, can work towards eradicating them.

I recently bought 2 new snakes, and have them in a totally seperate part of the house... I only handle them AFTER my original collection, and shower & change clothes when I'm done... As far as I know this is the best I can do, but because we don't know specifically how it spreads, it's still worrying...

How often do these viruses turn up in collections? I've only heard of a few cases in the last couple of years... but I guess the big challenge is people feeling too intimidated to come forward... or worse still... people wanting to hide it so they can sell off infected animals for a quick buck...


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## fidzy (Apr 28, 2009)

after reading all the replies its obvious that we will never get a 100% answer which says these snakes had OPMV... therefore i feel very sorry for pilbara pythons as there business and the confidence that everyone had in their reptiles has gone down the drain...... hopefully we can see a positive outcome but i highly doubt it


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## Perko (Apr 28, 2009)

Whats it matter if its OPMV or CVE or ABC?

The snake died from it, so regardless of what everyone wants speculate it is, its a massive problem.

How many animals have changed hands in this syndicate???


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## geckodan (Apr 28, 2009)

wokka said:


> It is my understanding that "the red dots in cells" are consistent with a number of virus apart from the big O. Perhaps the labs should be encouraged to use the wording "cosistent with CVE" to get the message out there that there are likely to be other Contagious Viral Encephalitis types out there which may behave differently to the big O.



Contagious Viral Encephalitis (CVE) is my wording. It has not been suggested to the wider community and is not is general use. Its how I wrap my head around the problem and find it easier to explain.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 28, 2009)

Fidzy
You have no need to feel sorry for Pilbara Pythons as our stock from WA remains unaffected.
My involvement was the offer to advertise Lukes reptiles temporarily on my site (which have now been removed). In fact it probably makes purchasing snakes directly off Pilbara Pythons and other W.A collectors the safest option of all.
Off note, I became Lukes part time spokesman for 2 reasons, 1 is that he is a shift worker and is often not around to read or to participate, and 2, the fact that I did after all allow some of his stock on to my web site. Unfortunately for Luke, a small number of his reptiles came from an additional source in Cairns.

One of the lads who started this new thread rang me yesterday and did discuss his situation with me and expressed interest in posting this thread, I definitely did not discourage him. It needs to be remembered, that he is a victim here.

Regards Dave


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## owcurat (Apr 28, 2009)

How is it I have just spent 20mins reading 4 pages of posts on a highly infectious disease with almost no mention of quarantine? By quarantining new animals you avoid having to “lock down” your collection if you have a suspicious case. ALL new animals into your collection should be quarantined for a minimum of 3 months (I know of some collections that have an 18 month quarantine period). Even within your collection a reasonable level of quarantine between animals is advisable. I can’t help but agree with Danny that if amateur herpetoculturalists (is that a real word?) don’t change their attitudes their hobby is doomed. As a side note I don’t know of any vet in this country I would trust more to diagnose reptile disease than Dr David Vella.


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## geckodan (Apr 28, 2009)

CraigP said:


> Whats it matter if its OPMV or CVE or ABC?
> 
> The snake died from it, so regardless of what everyone wants speculate it is, its a massive problem.
> 
> How many animals have changed hands in this syndicate???



Very few. From a snake point of view it is a group of isolated collections 100's of km apart with their own personal breeding projects (some do BHP's, some do stimmies etc.). I firmly believe that the WA animals are not the problem (source) but the other animals introduced into the collection have acted as the source. Its the origin of these animals that needs to be questioned.


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## fidzy (Apr 28, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Fidzy
> You have no need to feel sorry for Pilbara Pythons as our stock from WA remains unaffected.
> My involvement was the offer to advertise Lukes reptiles temporarily on my site (which have now been removed). In fact it probably makes purchasing snakes directly off Pilbara Pythons and other W.A collectors the safest option of all.
> Off note, I became Lukes part time spokesman for 2 reasons, 1 is that he is a shift worker and is often not around to read or to participate, and 2, the fact that I did after all allow some of his stock on to my web site. Unfortunately for Luke, a small number of his reptiles came from an additional source in Cairns.
> ...



good to hear!!! i havent heard a bad thing about you guys so would hate to see you lose that reputation


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## Perko (Apr 28, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Fidzy
> Unfortunately for Luke, a small number of his reptiles came from an additional source in Cairns.
> 
> Regards Dave


 




So is this person going to be named?


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## Hetty (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't know much about viruses so maybe someone can answer. I'm thinking it's possible that these viruses are not always fatal, and that some animals have immunity. Haven't some viruses (I think they were described as "strains of OPMV" before) been found in wild snakes? Unless we put them there then wild snakes must have some immunity.


Put down your pitchfork Craig, there's no need to name this person unless they have animals dying.


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

CraigP said:


> Whats it matter if its OPMV or CVE or ABC?
> 
> The snake died from it, so regardless of what everyone wants speculate it is, its a massive problem.
> 
> How many animals have changed hands in this syndicate???



OMG it's massive! All of one snake died from it (well arguably three) but it's massive! 

I want a royal commission into all the syndicates anywhere and everywhere! 

If i told you all some of the details i know about some breeders, and i know for fact, with all your current attitudes you would never buy another reptile again! I can also tell you that i have 100% been exposed to 'CVE' that ripped through a well known collection and i have had an entire clutch of hatchies die, yet i have still sold reptiles around Australia since and not had a single problem relayed to me. 

These things can be kept under control without too much hassel. Anyone can be unlucky enough to pick some kind of patho up and as soon as it shows itself anyone can deal with it. Everyone don't be so quick to judge, the way we're all carrying on is doing nothing to deal with this situation. If you have or do pick up a virus don't go witch hunting and looking for someone to blame. Deal with it.


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## JasonL (Apr 28, 2009)

Yes Hetty, there are contagious viral diseases in wild populations, and it is spread into collections more than you think, though usually you don't hear of it because a; most people still don't like to admitt they lost half their collection in 3 weeks and b; the source of the virus has come from an illegally caught snake. Whether or not the hobby has spead the virus into the wild or if it has always been there will probably remain a mystery.


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## foxysnake (Apr 28, 2009)

Ive been reading these posts or skimming them - I confess, but does it concern anyone else that there are 'scribbled' out portions in both these 'official' documents?, 

and to my knowledge, why was there such reluctance on the buyers end to send any of this information to the breeder? Lol, as Dave says Luke isnt on here much, so when he does log in - this will be the first time he sees these 'officail' documents!!

To the buyers, I'd like to send a spec msg to you both to dbl check the dates of contact between yourself and breeder and the autopsys etc - there seems to be a bit of discrepency.......... (Maybe that is why you were so reluctant to pass the info to the breeder?)

Cheers,
As always,
Dee.


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## NCHERPS (Apr 28, 2009)

foxysnake said:


> Ive been reading these posts or skimming them - I confess, but does it concern anyone else that there are 'scribbled' out portions in both these 'official' documents?,
> 
> 
> Dee.



The scribbled out portions look like his personal name and address details to me, if he hadn't scribbled it out, we would of insisted that it be removed anyway before posting in public forum.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Apr 28, 2009)

wow all to scary...


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## haymista (Apr 28, 2009)

Foxysnake
As ncherps has pointed out revealing surnames and addresses in this matter isnt nessecary. To claim that we forged the reports or took them from another case is very bold of you. You seem to think we are doing this for shtis and giggles. As Arbok has said this has put a lot of people under a lot of stress, including the sellers. The last thing anyone here wants is for this virus to exist
For the reason you have mentioned we have kept a log of dates etc. for referencing. There was a period of time between having the report read out to us and recieving the actual papers, but when we heard the report we decided that it was in Lukes best interest that we told him straight away instead of waiting till we had the actual report.
Cheers Pete


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## TrueBlue (Apr 28, 2009)

Im sure Luke will get on here when he can to explain his side of things, and he has gone into lock down from what he has told me, and i belive him 100%.

As for animals being "passed around" in what every one is calling a syndicate, it is not common place at all.
As Danny has said, animals have been sent from WA to set a small number of breeders up with certain species.

girdheinz,-
dont know where you read that all the WA bhps i had went to Luke?, because they did not. Dave had them sent to someone in s/e qld and all are doing fine.

I have had no problems with my collection at all, everything is thriving and doing well. So this virus has not been passed bettween us. We are thou, fairly certain where it has come from.


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## MissingLink (Apr 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> We are thou, fairly certain where it has come from.


 
So are you refering to Jim & Nick in Cairns... As i understand it, these are the same 2 people which infected Geckodans collection not long ago. I hope they 2 have locked down their collection.

ML


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## Mrs I (Apr 28, 2009)

MissingLink said:


> So are you refering to Jim & Nick in Cairns... As i understand it, these are the same 2 people which infected Geckodans collection not long ago. I hope they 2 have locked down their collection.
> 
> ML


 

If that is true, they should have locked down a long time ago !


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

:shock: ML, why would you name people if you're not even sure of their involvement? :? "As I understand it" is hardly proof. As I recall, Geckodan was quite specific in his preference that they not be named.

Really, this whole thing is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. One second it's a simple issue of one or two sick snakes and the need for two collections to be locked down until the danger has passed, the next it's become some huge to do about syndicates, inferred conspiracies, and naming people who may turn out to be completely uninvolved in this matter and against the wishes of a fourth party who was specific in his reasons for not wanting their names made public. You've just potentially either risked the safety of a few innocent people or trashed the reputations of two blameless people.


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## Mrs I (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> :shock: ML, why would you name people if you're not even sure of their involvement? :? "As I understand it" is hardly proof. As I recall, Geckodan was quite specific in his preference that they not be named.
> 
> Really, this whole thing is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. One second it's a simple issue of one or two sick snakes and the need for two collections to be locked down until the danger has passed, the next it's become some huge to do about syndicates, inferred conspiracies, and naming people who may turn out to be completely uninvolved in this matter and against the wishes of a fourth party who was specific in his reasons for not wanting their names made public. You've just potentially either risked the safety of a few innocent people or trashed the reputations of two blameless people.


 

One or two collections, but the start of the threat surely needs to be traced back to its origins and stopped down the line. (not saying it was right to name names, but surely there are a lot more than 1 or 2 collections that need to be 'watched', 'quarentined' ..... other snakes sold .. traded .. bought .. i would want to know if i was one of the people that had purchased from anyone that maybe involved, but obviously only the seller can notify everyone that has bought.


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## Elise (Apr 28, 2009)

i didn't know what this opvm whatever was till the other week... but a few people have bitched to me about who to buy from and who not to trust... it seems like a whole lot of rumors and hurt. Everyone take a chill pill as hurtful it is. Everyones panicking and what not... is that nessary? (don't mind my spelling)


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## pythons73 (Apr 28, 2009)

All the ppl involved in this no who they are,its no-ones business to name names on a public forum.By now they would have spoken to each other etc and hopefully all involved are in lock-down.I hope this all passes without any-not much trouble for all concerned.Now its about the disease,make sure it doesnt get passed on.This threat is getting further into crap that shouldnt be mentioned..


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

There's just no point, is there? Assume away.....


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## MissingLink (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> :shock: ML, why would you name people if you're not even sure of their involvement? :? "As I understand it" is hardly proof. As I recall, Geckodan was quite specific in his preference that they not be named.QUOTE]
> 
> Well maybe its time that they were named, and maybe if they were named in the beggining, and they locked down their collections, maybe, just maybe we would not be going through what we are now.


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

MissingLink said:


> Well maybe its time that they were named, and maybe if they were named in the beggining, and they locked down their collections, maybe, just maybe we would not be going through what we are now.



Well Maybe, just maybe if people like you didn't open their big mouths bitching like a school girl people wouldn't be so worried about talking about having a problem like this. 

Try and be proactive not reactive.


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## Elise (Apr 28, 2009)

well hey obviously people are worried about this all and people do over react. To be honest bad things happen to the best of us. only someone without a care in the world would not have a lock down being involved... or an extream idiot. so this will blow over.


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## matt86 (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't think we should be naming names... it just leads to even more of a mob mentality...

But I think people need to understand/appreciate why a lot of people DO want people named... People want to know what collections they should be avoiding to prevent an outbreak in their own collection... Imagine how horrible it would be if there was a known issue in a collection, but everybody who knew kept it quiet out of respect (and I am not saying we should be naming names) and it ended up infecting a bunch of innocent peoples collections... it could have all been avoided if people knew names...

If people are going to do the right thing anyway, and lock down their incoming/outgoing animals... then they should make it public, and say 'look, there is an issue in my collection at present... I am going to lock it all down, and in 18 months time, if all is fine, I can trade again.' It would give people confidence in their honesty...

JMO!


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## Mrs I (Apr 28, 2009)

matt86 said:


> I don't think we should be naming names... it just leads to even more of a mob mentality...
> 
> But I think people need to understand/appreciate why a lot of people DO want people named... People want to know what collections they should be avoiding to prevent an outbreak in their own collection... Imagine how horrible it would be if there was a known issue in a collection, but everybody who knew kept it quiet out of respect (and I am not saying we should be naming names) and it ended up infecting a bunch of innocent peoples collections... it could have all been avoided if people knew names...
> 
> ...


 
............... in an ideal world ............


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## matt86 (Apr 28, 2009)

Mrs I said:


> ............... in an ideal world ............


 
I am well aware of the issues that prevent this from actually taking place... but I don't think people should be blasting people because they want to know who is involved. It's natural to want to prevent issues in your own collection. Knowledge is power... and people want to know detail so that they can feel at least a little bit 'in control.'

I think you will find that a lot of the rage would not be cast upon people if they were named... The rage only exists because people are afraid of the unknown, and concerned about the fact that they aren't being told any detail. Obviously there would be people who would misdirect their anger.. that's why I mentioned at the start of my post that I DO NOT support the naming of names... I just think we should respect all angles of the argument...


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## Freeloader (Apr 28, 2009)

If you names names you have to have irrefutable proof. Does that exist?


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## MissingLink (Apr 28, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Well Maybe, just maybe if people like you didn't open their big mouths bitching like a school girl people wouldn't be so worried about talking about having a problem like this.
> 
> Try and be proactive not reactive.


 
So really what your trying to say is that its ok for people to continue to trade even if they have a suspected problem... Which is what has happened here and caused Luke his problem.

Now say for instance i didnt name names, many people may blindly still trade with certain people...

As what has been said, in a perfect world.... People would be honest and not have to be proded or threatened to come forward, if they had any TRUE love of the hobby, they would want to do whats best for it, not for their wallet...


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## junglepython2 (Apr 28, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I can also tell you that i have 100% been exposed to 'CVE' that ripped through a well known collection and i have had an entire clutch of hatchies die, yet i have still sold reptiles around Australia since and not had a single problem relayed to me.
> 
> .


 
Did you let the buyers of your reptiles know of this?


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

No i didn't and i didn't feel i needed to because i was 100% confident in my quarantine standard.


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## itbites (Apr 28, 2009)

MissingLink said:


> So really what your trying to say is that its ok for people to continue to trade even if they have a suspected problem... Which is what has happened here and caused Luke his problem.
> 
> Now say for instance i didnt name names, many people may blindly still trade with certain people...
> 
> As what has been said, in a perfect world.... People would be honest and not have to be proded or threatened to come forward, if they had any TRUE love of the hobby, they would want to do whats best for it, not for their wallet...


 

Very well said...

It's sad to think that people with issues in their collections 
would still be most willing to sell. 
And not bother to mention anything to the unsuspecting buyer.


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

MissingLink said:


> So really what your trying to say is that its ok for people to continue to trade even if they have a suspected problem... Which is what has happened here and caused Luke his problem.
> 
> Now say for instance i didnt name names, many people may blindly still trade with certain people...
> 
> As what has been said, in a perfect world.... People would be honest and not have to be proded or threatened to come forward, if they had any TRUE love of the hobby, they would want to do whats best for it, not for their wallet...



Wow! That's drawing a bit of a long bow. 

What i am saying is that people shouldn't be naming names publicly. I don't know how you could infer that i think people should continue to sell sick animals under the guise that they are healthy from what i wrote...


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

itbites said:


> Very well said...
> 
> It's sad to think that people with issues in their collections
> would still be most willing to sell.
> And not bother to mention anything to the unsuspecting buyer.



It is sad when people know they have issues and continue to seel, deplorable in fact.

That being said, there's no reason for ML (not sure what his everyday username is), to label people as shonky breeders based on his understanding of a situation as opposed to his definite first hand knowledge.


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## matt86 (Apr 28, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> No i didn't and i didn't feel i needed to because i was 100% confident in my quarantine standard.


 
Waruikazi... this is not a personal attack, I'm just going to express my opinion in relation to your comment... There is far too much heat flying around this thread, so i wanted to let you know before I comment...

Whether or not a breeder is confident in their quarantine standards, I think they should still inform buyers of any POTENTIAL risks (not saying it's certain, just potential). If you are truly confident in your standards, and you want to do the right thing by your buyer, you should inform them of the incident, the steps you took to control it, and let them make their own choice... not sell to them, and hope for the best.

JMO!


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## itbites (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> It is sad when people know they have issues and continue to seel, deplorable in fact.
> 
> That being said, there's no reason for ML (not sure what his everyday username is), to label people as shonky breeders based on his understanding of a situation as opposed to his definite first hand knowledge.


 

I am not referring specifically to him naming names Kersten.
But I do believe that if breeders/sellers are willing to continue trade 
even if they know there are health issues within their collection...

They should be named, to some extent to prevent them from infecting 
god knows how many other collections.

In this case haymista & arbok have decided to come forward with their findings.
I do wonder what would have happened 
if none of this had been brought to light?

Considering this will ultimately affect the breeders/sellers with their future trading
would people be most willing to out themselves for the benefit of buyers?
Or would they keep things quite as not to risk trading/reputation?

I for one want to know that the persons I buy from are free from disease/virus etc..


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

matt86 said:


> Waruikazi... this is not a personal attack, I'm just going to express my opinion in relation to your comment... There is far too much heat flying around this thread, so i wanted to let you know before I comment...
> 
> Whether or not a breeder is confident in their quarantine standards, I think they should still inform buyers of any POTENTIAL risks (not saying it's certain, just potential). If you are truly confident in your standards, and you want to do the right thing by your buyer, you should inform them of the incident, the steps you took to control it, and let them make their own choice... not sell to them, and hope for the best.
> 
> JMO!



Matt i don't take offence to anything on the internet lol. 

My point of that post was to show how quickly rumor can cause people to make a judgment that isn't justified. I made that comment about 3 pages ago and not a single person asked what the nature of the exposure was or the cause of the hatchies death. Yet people still felt the need to tell me what i 'should' have done. I didn't get burnt in fire and brimstone like i thought i would lol but i think my point stands.


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## herpkeeper (Apr 28, 2009)

I think everyone here needs to take a step back for a while and re-evaluate the situation instead of turning this into a massive **** fight ! there is NO one victim here, all parties concerned are victims in one way or another. Arbok, Haymista & Luke are all victims. what ever you would like to label this, personally i think it would be rather presumptous to give it an exact name when what we are most probably dealing with is a rather complex group of virusus which can be triggered by a number of reasons. eg: stress, heat, cold ect:
At the end of the day, it has been brought out into the open, & all parties should be comended (not condemed) and it's a shame the original source of infection wasn't as honest as these lads.
My condolences to all parties involved.
HK.


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

Yes, I realised you weren't referring to that Itbites, which is why I kept my comment about naming names seperate from my agreement with your point. If people are knowingly trading infected animals and it can be proved they are, then I tend o agree, they should be named. The proof is the tricky part though.In this case had they not come forward it wouldn't have mattered, as the issue had already been raised by PilbaraPythons on Luke's behalf and if what was posted is correct, with his prior knowledge.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 28, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> No i didn't and i didn't feel i needed to because i was 100% confident in my quarantine standard.


 
Out of interest do you mind if I ask what your quarantine procedure is?


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## itbites (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Yes, I realised you weren't referring to that Itbites, which is why I kept my comment about naming names seperate from my agreement with your point. If people are knowingly trading infected animals and it can be proved they are, then I tend o agree, they should be named. The proof is the tricky part though.In this case had they not come forward it wouldn't have mattered, as the issue had already been raised by PilbaraPythons on Luke's behalf and if what was posted is correct, with his prior knowledge.


 

Yes however I really don't feel that the previous thread was created
to inform the public of any virus/illness etc..

More to discredit the buyers *jmo*


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

junglepython2 said:


> Out of interest do you mind if I ask what your quarantine procedure is?



I keep all new snakes in separate room to all the others. I haven't ever ended up putting them in the same room together (i can do this because my collection is small) but if i was to i wont do it before i've owned them for 6 months. I spray down with F10 and if i am interacting with quarantine animals i will shower before interacting with my other animals. 

No one has yet asked what the exposure was from and how it came about...


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## =bECS= (Apr 28, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I keep all new snakes in separate room to all the others. I haven't ever ended up putting them in the same room together (i can do this because my collection is small) but if i was to i wont do it before i've owned them for 6 months. I spray down with F10 and if i am interacting with quarantine animals i will shower before interacting with my other animals.
> 
> No one has yet asked what the exposure was from and how it came about...



What was the exposure from and how did it come about?




You could have just said it instead of waiting to be asked


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## mark83 (Apr 28, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> I keep all new snakes in separate room to all the others. I haven't ever ended up putting them in the same room together (i can do this because my collection is small) but if i was to i wont do it before i've owned them for 6 months. I spray down with F10 and if i am interacting with quarantine animals i will shower before interacting with my other animals.
> 
> No one has yet asked what the exposure was from and how it came about...


 

what was the exposure from and how did it come about?


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

And i use 'Ultimate hand gel' just for fun!


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## waruikazi (Apr 28, 2009)

I was in a vet clinic and which had some snakes come in that were suspected of OPMV and i drove the euthed sample to get tested. I can't remember if it was confirmed or not.


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## jezzabel (Apr 28, 2009)

geckodan you are one smart man


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## herpkeeper (Apr 28, 2009)

Sorry to go off topic here, but i have received numerous PM's asking me of my affiliation with Pilbara Pythons and or True Blue breeding group. Rob & I are friends & we knocked around a bit together fishing ect: when he lived up here in N/Q, but I have ALWAYS maintained a private collection. i mean no disrespect to Dave or Rob by this, it's just i have had numerous people inquire if I am affiliated. 
answer NO !


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## TrueBlue (Apr 28, 2009)

Ah but you do have animals from my collection Mark, and helped maintain some of my snakes for a while.(you posted a pick of one of the stimmes that you got off me here a few weeks back).
Im sure the animals that you have from me are still fine as are all the other animals that i have passed on to other people.
As said before this virus has not been passed on bettween any of us, if it had of been i would surely have had animals die, yet i have had no problems what so ever. 
Myself and Dave have set Luke up with animals in the past, but have not got animals off him, as for the last 2 yrs ive been cutting back the size of my collection, not increasing it. So animals are NOT passed willy nilly bettween everyone or anyone.

As said earlier, we have a fair idea where it has come from, but only an idea not 100% certain.
Hell from what Danny has said it could even possibly of come from the wild.? Luke loves his herping and even thou he rarely touches anything, (except with the camera), he could of moved something off the road and inadvertantly taken a nastie back home with him. A scary thought but very possible.
So naming names unless 100% certain is just not an option.


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## herpkeeper (Apr 28, 2009)

Like i said Rob, i mean't no offence by that so what's with that comment ? what are you trying to insinuate ??? do you have a problem ? i received those Stimmies off you on the 23.02.07 same with the Childreni and i have not helped you with your collection since ! My collection is just that, my collection.... & no, there is nothing wrong with those animals ......... LOL


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## girdheinz (Apr 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> girdheinz,-
> dont know where you read that all the WA bhps i had went to Luke?, because they did not. Dave had them sent to someone in s/e qld and all are doing fine.


 
I'm sorry it was Qld's not WA's my mistake http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/1351026-post8

Gird


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## Noongato (Apr 28, 2009)

Hey heres a scary thought for everyone.

What happens if there is a stall setup at the reptile expo thats riddled with OPMV etc.?
Bom bom Booommm!

I bought a spotted today from a big breeder out this way, and i touched a few snakes in his collection, if i was some kind of sicko i could have introduced anything into his vast collection. Mind you i would never! 

Theres no such thing as inpenetrable quarrantine.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 28, 2009)

Huh, not trying to insinuate anything Mark just stating facts. Youve recived animals of me and all are fine, and have helped maintain a few animals, that is a form of affiliation. There was no offence intended at all, i truely cant see why you have your knickers in a twist.


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## Freeloader (Apr 28, 2009)

Like i said before, proof has to be irrefutable before any names are named. Too many innocent people have their reputations muddied on unsubstaniated rumour and gossip.


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## JasonL (Apr 28, 2009)

midnightserval said:


> Hey heres a scary thought for everyone.
> 
> What happens if there is a stall setup at the reptile expo thats riddled with OPMV etc.?
> Bom bom Booommm!
> ...


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## gozz (Apr 28, 2009)

This is nearly as bad as the new Bikie laws lol no more affiliations etc we are all closet herpers


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## CodeRed (Apr 28, 2009)

frogboy said:


> Like i said before, proof has to be irrefutable before any names are named. Too many innocent people have their reputations muddied on unsubstaniated rumour and gossip.



Didnt you receive a stimmy of iceman which died shorty thereafter?

Oh I see you dont want to be associated with OPMV either ... but it was so nice of you to publicly announce it. So I expect you'll be in lockdown too?


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## redcentrerodents (Apr 28, 2009)

*Ethic's - Policy - Procedures - Code of conduct*

For years now i have been meaning to complete ( in writing ) a procedure for this and a policy for that on what measures i take day to day according to my own ethical behaviour and what is good practice.

I'm sure that the majority will agree with me here, it is Overdue for us ALL to have input into this and form some regulations and guidelines as to what we as Keepers and Breeders expect and will tolerate and accept.(for the animals welfare, and our financial protection)

This issue of new found viruses is certainly a major issue of concern for all in the hobby, that will definately become a larger problem, so let's all get together and put forward idea's to promote the long term survival of our captive and native reptile's by having a national set of regulations and policies in place that we as keepers and breeders will happily abide by to ensure EVERYONE's acting within an acceptable code of conduct.

I know it's just word's and it will be extremely difficult to set up and to regulate, but with time and effort the majority of us could benefit from something along these lines.

What do you guy's think??????????? Something like this is achievable, or am i dreaming???

Mick


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## herpkeeper (Apr 28, 2009)

gozz said:


> This is nearly as bad as the new Bikie laws lol no more affiliations etc we are all closet herpers


 

go back and read my post again. Rob has got nothing to do with my collection at all other than me getting a trio of Stimmies & 5 Childreni off him over 2 years ago. I am not trying to hide anything, but i have had no affiliation with Robs collection for over 2 years & Dave i have spoken to twice ....................

we are all closet herpers................ i think not, speak for your self gozz - trying to earn a few brownie points eh ? LOL


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2009)

midnightserval said:


> Hey heres a scary thought for everyone.
> 
> What happens if there is a stall setup at the reptile expo thats riddled with OPMV etc.?
> Bom bom Booommm!
> ...



That is so very true. You just don't know where it is going to come from. If you did, you would have stopped it before it got into your collection. 

These ppl wanting to name and discredit other ppl, think about this point. How many animals are entered in Expo's - for show or sale. How many animals are kept in pet shops, you go in there to look at them and don't think twice about what you could be taking home. Just remember not a lot is known about OPMV. We know it is contagious but is it airborne, or does it have to have direct contact with another reptile to be passed on. It is known that direct contact is a cause for spread, but nobody has proven that it isn't airborne. Why isn't there a vaccine or a cure? How did it sneak up on these ppl in question here? It had to come from somewhere. The answer is never going to be obvious or nobody would find themselves in this situation.

I understand the word OPMV brings about panic and alarm. I would be devestated to lose my collection. But naming and blaming isn't going to help anybody. It is obvious they aren't trying to hide the possibility of a problem, they aren't continuing trading so why keep trying point fingers and make them feel worse then they already do. They haven't committed a crime, they have received news of possible extreme bad luck to their beautiful collections. Remember these ppl don't want t lose their animals any more than you are frightened of it coming to you.


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## Mrs I (Apr 28, 2009)

CodeRed said:


> Didnt you receive a stimmy of iceman which died shorty thereafter?
> 
> Oh I see you dont want to be associated with OPMV either ... but it was so nice of you to publicly announce it. So I expect you'll be in lockdown too?


 

And how many others ?


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## Freeloader (Apr 28, 2009)

Codered. Mate i wouldn't know you from a bar of soap. By your comments looks like i wouldn't want to.
Firstly i didn't publicly announce it on this forum. It was announced by someone else. Mate i haven't ducked this issue. Never stated that i would duck this issue. 

Facts should be straight in your own head before your fingers hit the keys.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 28, 2009)

Mark,- 
So how does this have anything to do with my collection.?


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## NCHERPS (Apr 28, 2009)

Keep it civil guys.

A few of you are getting close to the mark, we would hate to have to close the thread.

Thanks Neil


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## NCHERPS (Apr 28, 2009)

frogboy said:


> Don't hide behind the PM Codered Bring it into the public forum.



Actually, that's the way to handle it.
Take to the PM or you will be infracted!


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## Retic (Apr 28, 2009)

I was chatting to a mate today about all this and I commented that I hate this hobby almost as much as I love it but the gap is closing rapidly.


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## herpkeeper (Apr 28, 2009)

hang on a second Rob, your the one who has implied that i still have something to do with your collection... not for over 2 years buddy, check through your books. people have been asking if i have anything to do with yours or dave's breeding group ? i never have, have I ? I don't see why you would have even bothered saying anything unless you have something going on, do you ?

well said Boa, some people take the gloss right off it with their jelousy and innuendos, why bother ? what's the gain ? another ego feed ? LOL


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## Freeloader (Apr 28, 2009)

Whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

Yeah Boa, gotta hate the rumour mongering, griping, backstabbing and nasty insinuations some get into.


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## NCHERPS (Apr 28, 2009)

herpkeeper said:


> hang on a second Rob, your the one who has implied that i still have something to do with your collection... not for over 2 years buddy, check through your books. people have been asking if i have anything to do with yours or dave's breeding group ? i never have, have I ? I don't see why you would have even bothered saying anything unless you have something going on, do you ?



Can you and Trueblue please take this offline and use the PM.

Thanks Neil


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## haymista (Apr 28, 2009)

redcentrerodents said:


> For years now i have been meaning to complete ( in writing ) a procedure for this and a policy for that on what measures i take day to day according to my own ethical behaviour and what is good practice.
> 
> I'm sure that the majority will agree with me here, it is Overdue for us ALL to have input into this and form some regulations and guidelines as to what we as Keepers and Breeders expect and will tolerate and accept.(for the animals welfare, and our financial protection)
> 
> ...


 
Obviously this is a very touchy subject but i think we can all agree it needs to be discussed. I for one agree with redcenter. Maybe if there isn't a standard protocol and expectation for this kind of thing its about time there was one? It seems that its very hard to get a 100% confirmation on these things but what does consistent mean? should we expect people to act on consistent?


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## Retic (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm afraid it is slowly killing the hobby. 



Kersten said:


> Yeah Boa, gotta hate the rumour mongering, griping, backstabbing and nasty insinuations some get into.


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> That is so very true. You just don't know where it is going to come from. If you did, you would have stopped it before it got into your collection.
> 
> These ppl wanting to name and discredit other ppl, think about this point. How many animals are entered in Expo's - for show or sale. How many animals are kept in pet shops, you go in there to look at them and don't think twice about what you could be taking home. Just remember not a lot is known about OPMV. We know it is contagious but is it airborne, or does it have to have direct contact with another reptile to be passed on. It is known that direct contact is a cause for spread, but nobody has proven that it isn't airborne. Why isn't there a vaccine or a cure? How did it sneak up on these ppl in question here? It had to come from somewhere. The answer is never going to be obvious or nobody would find themselves in this situation.
> 
> I understand the word OPMV brings about panic and alarm. I would be devestated to lose my collection. But naming and blaming isn't going to help anybody. It is obvious they aren't trying to hide the possibility of a problem, they aren't continuing trading so why keep trying point fingers and make them feel worse then they already do. They haven't committed a crime, they have received news of possible extreme bad luck to their beautiful collections. Remember these ppl don't want t lose their animals any more than you are frightened of it coming to you.


 OPMV has been found not to be airborne. its believed to be spred through direct contact between snakes, mites from one snake to the other, saliva on feeding tongs transfered to another snake, swapping of water bowls between enclosures or washing water bowls or enclosures with the same cloth.


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## herpkeeper (Apr 28, 2009)

I wouldn't waste my time Neil, someone's got such an inpenatrable ego LOL

but i won't pass anymore comments


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## marty (Apr 28, 2009)

Not sure if this is relevant or not.
In some of my pervious jobs I have worked with infectious diseases. It was a great learning experience. The principle of “barrier nursing” to halt a disease’s spread is, I believe, essential when dealing with any viral/bacterial threat. Studying diseases like HIV/AIDS HEP A,B and C, TB, MRSA and VRE has opened my eyes to the ease in which a virus can spread. 
I use copious amounts of alcohol hand wash and quarantine ALL new arrivals. Utensils are autoclaved and enclosures are regularly cleaned. Hand wash is used before I enter and after I leave my collection room the same for any one else who enters the room. After dealing with another’s animals, before I enter my room, clothes are discarded and I shower and go through the alcohol hand wash routine again. 

A bit anal I know, however, after studying and dealing with infectious diseases you just can’t be too careful with those little viral buggers


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## mysnakesau (Apr 28, 2009)

Wow, so hygiene measures would be second nature to you. I know a lot ppl do use hand washes, but often their intentions weaken and the barriers get dropped. This is where trouble comes in. Nobody is perfect. We can only do our best, learn as we go.


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## marty (Apr 28, 2009)

mysnakesau
after doing the job for several years i does become second nature alright. 
i have recently been on a team looking at this stinking swine flu. now there is a concern. 
really enforces the "barrier" concept
Diligence is the key


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

i believe that its very important not to handle other peoples collection or let them handle yours. 1 mite or 1 drop of saliva transfered between collections is enough to cause a disaster. the same is said for handling reptiles at expo's or in pet shops. this also shows the need for quarantining any new animal. a quarintine period could be as long as a year or 2. im even guilty of not carrying out proper quaranting, but i do follow very stricked hygiene procedures


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## wokka (Apr 28, 2009)

herpkeeper said:


> I wouldn't waste my time Neil, someone's got such an inpenatrable ego LOL
> 
> but i won't pass anymore comments



I couldn't beat Trueblues ego so i got him to take me fishing. First time out and I caught a bigger 'largemouth than he's ever caught. lol


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## junglepython2 (Apr 28, 2009)

funcouple said:


> OPMV has been found not to be airborne. its believed to be spred through direct contact between snakes, mites from one snake to the other, saliva on feeding tongs transfered to another snake, swapping of water bowls between enclosures or washing water bowls or enclosures with the same cloth.


 
Anything to back that up?


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

junglepython2 said:


> Anything to back that up?


 have a read through this link. http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV3F.htm


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## Mayo (Apr 28, 2009)

"In situ transmission is generally via fluids, not air. This means, blood, saliva, water bowls, bowl washers and mites. Most common means between cages is shared washing cloths for water bowls or transfer by mites. Less common is via saliva or fluids left on feeding tongs or forceps." -Taken from http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV3F.htm 

Key word there generally, no conformation that it is not air born just a generalisation that it is not. Sorry to be picky but I don't take that as conformation that it is not capable of being air borne. If I missed something in there please feel free to correct me


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## junglepython2 (Apr 28, 2009)

funcouple said:


> have a read through this link. http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV3F.htm


 
Thanks FC, interesting read. However I can't see how he can totally rule out airborne transmission. I'm not saying it is, just think it is dangerous to be making any assumptions about this disease(s).


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

junglepython2 said:


> Thanks FC, interesting read. However I can't see how he can totally rule out airborne transmission. I'm not saying it is, just think it is dangerous to be making any assumptions about this disease(s).


 i like most people know very little about OPMV and other diseases that can effect our snakes. i was only taking the assumption from hosers testing and what was printed in that link, and others that i have read. i think we all need to read as much as we can and talk with others that know more about these diseases, and take more care with our collections to prevent further losses


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## Mayo (Apr 28, 2009)

There are alot of papers on the subject and I have read a few but none have ruled it out as being air borne.


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## haymista (Apr 28, 2009)

lol and im guessing none have confirmed it. Does anyone know why there is such a mystery surrounding these viruses? I mean people have worked out human viruses but i guess thats coz theres a hell of a lot more money and energy put into that research ay


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## Mayo (Apr 28, 2009)

OPMV is usually only found after death which makes it very hard to study and a huge lack in funding at this stage doesn't help


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## Netty (Apr 28, 2009)

After reading this thread i would like to know is the seller in question going to cover the vet bills???? 
Surely its the least they could do!


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## arbok (Apr 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> As said earlier, we have a fair idea where it has come from, but only an idea not 100% certain.
> Hell from what Danny has said it could even possibly of come from the wild.? Luke loves his herping and even thou he rarely touches anything, (except with the camera), he could of moved something off the road and inadvertantly taken a nastie back home with him. A scary thought but very possible.
> So naming names unless 100% certain is just not an option.



given how contagious it would have to be to transfer from direct contact with a wild or captive animal (and im not saying it has) surely if Luke handled a snake before attending the Qld reptile expo, there could have been a spread of the virus?

furthermore if Luke isnt cleaning with f10 etc before getting home after contact with snakes, how reliable are his quarantining methods? 

this is not an attack, simply a question.

regards,
Arbok


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

Luke did't handle any snakes at the expo that I saw and he travelled quite some distance to get here, not to mention the fact the expo was the day after he arrived.


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Luke did't handle any snakes at the expo that I saw and he travelled quite some distance to get here, not to mention the fact the expo was the day after he arrived.


 sorry but i dont think anyone but Luke can say what he did or didnt handle


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## Kersten (Apr 28, 2009)

Hmmmm, true, except that I could see him for the majority of the time he was there. Hence me saying, that I saw.


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

Kersten said:


> Hmmmm, true, except that I could see him for the majority of the time he was there. Hence me saying, that I saw.


 sorry again. but like you have said, majority of the time. thats not all the time. 
think its time that Luke was here speaking for himself insted of everyone else speaking for him


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## John_lisa (Apr 28, 2009)

ok guys i have not read all the pages but i have read the first and this OPMV seems pritty bad but *** is it can someone explain to me plz cuz i dont even know what it stands for and id like to know if its not to much to ask 

ty


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## arbok (Apr 28, 2009)

johno799 said:


> ok guys i have not read all the pages but i have read the first and this OPMV seems pritty bad but *** is it can someone explain to me plz cuz i dont even know what it stands for and id like to know if its not to much to ask
> 
> ty



google it, there has been some links posted in this thread;
there are so many different opinions people trying to all explain there own in a thread wouldnt end nicely. 

it stands for Ophidian Paramyoxvirus


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## seumas12345 (Apr 28, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> Well what are you trying to say ? that all snakes involved should be put down ?
> Lock down at this stage is about the only logical thing to do ,and if owners that bought from this breeder fear it could involve them as well then yes lock down for those snakes as well .
> as I said before dont jump the gun ..


 
Nah not put down. What I'm trying to say is that if the breeders are worried enough to lockdown then shouldn't everyone else who bought from them in the last 6 months should be doing the same.


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## arbok (Apr 28, 2009)

seumas12345 said:


> Nah not put down. What I'm trying to say is that if the breeders are worried enough to lockdown then shouldn't everyone else who bought from them in the last 6 months should be doing the same.



I have already noted in this thread, that i am locking down. Unfortunatly we cant force anyone to do it, its a choice they have to make.


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## fidzy (Apr 28, 2009)

i would love to see how many snakes are brought out of their enclusures this weekend at the expo


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## seumas12345 (Apr 28, 2009)

arbok said:


> I have already noted in this thread, that i am locking down. Unfortunatly we cant force anyone to do it, its a choice they have to make.


 
Yeah I know you've done the right thing arbok. I spose it's also abit hard for other buyers if the breeders won't even contact the buyers they've had to let them know of the situation. for all we know there could be some poor bugger out there who doesnt use APS, selling his snakes not even knowing that they could be infected...


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## haymista (Apr 28, 2009)

arbok said:


> I have already noted in this thread, that i am locking down. Unfortunatly we cant force anyone to do it, its a choice they have to make.


 
I think there should be an expectation to lock down in situations like these, its what im doing, its what arboks doing and its what icemans doing.


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## seumas12345 (Apr 28, 2009)

fidzy said:


> i would love to see how many snakes are brought out of their enclusures this weekend at the expo


 
Yeah I reckon! I'd be very cautious taking mine there. And I'd be rolling around in a bath of disinfectant after attending lol


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## seumas12345 (Apr 28, 2009)

haymista said:


> I think there should be an expectation to lock down in situations like these, its what im doing, its what arboks doing and its what icemans doing.


 
Mmm i know you guys are doing the right thing, but my question was that you aren't the only two people that have bought from iceman in the last 6 months... What is being done by the breeders to let these other buyers know of the situation and that they should be locking down aswell (as not all of them would be APS members)? It only takes one infected snake to cause alot of devastation!


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## fidzy (Apr 28, 2009)

seumas12345 said:


> Yeah I reckon! I'd be very cautious taking mine there. And I'd be rolling around in a bath of disinfectant after attending lol



lolllll


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## Ramsayi (Apr 28, 2009)

fidzy said:


> i would love to see how many snakes are brought out of their enclusures this weekend at the expo



Hygiene protocols will be in place for the expo as has been the case from previous years..I can't speak for anyone else but NO ONE will be handling our animals under any circumstances,it was always going to be this way well before these threads were started.Here is a snip of the procedures.

Hygiene Protocol : 

• All reptiles are to be brought to the show in a white or light-coloured cotton bag or pillowslip inside a ventilated sturdy clear plastic container with securely clipped on lid. 

• All reptiles will be inspected for mites or any obvious signs of disease before being allowed entry to the exhibition area. 
• Exhibitors will not be able to handle reptiles other than their own. 
• Reptiles are not to be removed from the cage until the end of the show, unless authorised by an official or veterinarian, appointed by the show committee. 
• Judges, officials, veterinarians or anyone handling animals should take care to keep their clothing and equipment clean, and disinfect hands between handling reptiles. 
• Any unauthorised person removing a reptile from a display cage will be asked to leave the show immediately. 
• All cages are to be brand new, having never held animals prior to the show. 
• Cages should all be on the one level and not stacked. An exception will be made in the case of multiple entries in the same class being entered by the one exhibitor. A maximum of two cages may be stacked at any one time. 
• Breeders Choice®, or butchers paper is to be used as a substrate. Other substrates are not acceptable. 
• Hygiene stations providing F10® or Virkon® spray will be available at strategic points (pre-show inspection table, inspection room and throughout the exhibition area) so that handlers can disinfect their hands immediately after contact with a reptile. 
• A veterinarian will be present or at least contactable by telephone during the course of the show. 
• A quarantine room will be available for close inspection or isolation of suspect reptiles. 
• A footbath containing a suitable disinfectant such as F10® or Virkon® shall be at the entrance to this room. Everyone entering or leaving the room shall use the footbath. 
• Reptiles can only be removed from a container once inside the examination room. Only owners, designated officials or the appointed veterinarian may handle the reptile. After handling a reptile, hands must be disinfected prior to leaving the room. The owner or those nominated by owner must be easily reachable or preferably to stay with the animal(s) for the duration of the show.


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## haymista (Apr 28, 2009)

seumas12345 said:


> Mmm i know you guys are doing the right thing, but my question was that you aren't the only two people that have bought from iceman in the last 6 months... What is being done by the breeders to let these other buyers know of the situation and that they should be locking down aswell (as not all of them would be APS members)? It only takes one infected snake to cause alot of devastation!


 
Thats a very good question, im interested in frogboys movements coz as far as i know he is in the exact same position as arbok and I


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## fidzy (Apr 28, 2009)

ideally thats what should happen, but realistically will it happen. we'll wait and see


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## fugawi (Apr 28, 2009)

If it is opmv, wouldn't the other two be dead also or at least showing some signs?


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## funcouple (Apr 28, 2009)

There has also been cases of asymptomatic carriers where the animal can be a carrier of the virus without developing symptoms.


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## fugawi (Apr 29, 2009)

Just 1 from 3 dies?


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## funcouple (Apr 29, 2009)

fugawi..please read back through this thead as i have posted a couple of links that explains about OPMV and how it is claimed to be spred between animals. i hope that helps you to understand this alittle. if you cant find these links pm me


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## seumas12345 (Apr 29, 2009)

fugawi said:


> Just 1 from 3 dies?


 
Snakes with OPMV can live up to 12 months before showing any signs of OPMV. Also as FC has said there have also been cases where they don't show signs at all..
Furthermore, even if it isn't OPMV, it could be some other retro virus which still poses a major threat to iceman's collection and anyone else's collection that have bought from him. Simple solution: all breeders and buyers involved in the last 6 months, LOCKDOWN!


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## seumas12345 (Apr 29, 2009)

One thing i really wanted to question is the amount of information available out there about quarantining animals that have been bought. Although I have only been into snakes for over a year, I have done so much reading and research about them. Never once in all the articles I have read about husbandry and care for reps have I seen anything about quarantining them. Also, I have never once been told from any seller I have bought from to make sure to quaranteen the animal. In terms of OPMV, I didn't even know what it was until this whole situation arose.

I think that there somehow needs to be alot more information for newbies out there and the sellers could definitely help by giving them detailed instructions on what's important when they start their collections. Anyone wish to comment?


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## carpetmuncher (Apr 29, 2009)

geckodan said:


> I had obtained 80% directly as wild caught specimens out of WA (the safest source of animals in my opinion) The remainder came from non affiliated sources in QLD. So in answer to your question, "No idea if its the same".


 
hey dan, i heard that the animal that introduced it to you was the bumble-bee bhp, true? was it euthanased ? how many people that you have sold herps to did you warn upon knowing you had problems, i heard none.


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## funcouple (Apr 29, 2009)

Seumas i dont believe any breeder/seller will ever tell anyone that they need to quarintine their purchase. it would be like say you better keep my animal away from the rest of your as i may have a problem. like i said it will never happen. it shouldnt matter what type of animal it is, all should be quarintine till you are sure that it is safe to add to your collection. this scare has brought to life just how slack most of us have been with quarintining new animals. it a practise that we all must adopt now


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## seumas12345 (Apr 29, 2009)

funcouple said:


> Seumas i dont believe any breeder/seller will ever tell anyone that they need to quarintine their purchase. it would be like say you better keep my animal away from the rest of your as i may have a problem. like i said it will never happen. it shouldnt matter what type of animal it is, all should be quarintine till you are sure that it is safe to add to your collection. this scare has brought to life just how slack most of us have been with quarintining new animals. it a practise that we all must adopt now


 
Yeah I was thinking that, I guess I wouldn't be telling people to quaranteen incase they thought there was something wrong with my animals. Perhaps it'd be worth at least one of the mods making a sticky about quaranteen it in the hope that others might read it?


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 29, 2009)

carpetmuncher
The Bumble bee was never sent to Dan and neither does it have any illness or exposed to one in any collection. Who ever told you otherwise is speaking absolute garbage, there seems to be alot of that told lately.


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## John_lisa (Apr 29, 2009)

i think seumas is right because i am new to snakes and i have never even thought about quaranteen and to be honest i have no idea what to do in regards to it lol and i do understande were ur comeing from FC no breeder will say it but some how word needs to spread that it should be done it would be much more help in situations like this and tbh i still dont know alot about this but from what i have read it seems pritty bad and i wish all of u the best of luck not to get it in ur collection


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## wokka (Apr 29, 2009)

Snakes are no different to any other animal including people. There are always diseases around the corner both known and unknown. Some animals are suseptible and some live through infection. In humans I can think of cancer and aids as examples of diseases which we know little about but happen, and life goes on. Likewise in snakes opmv, ibd,cve,abc and 123 are out there, and a heap of others we dont know about yet are out there and some animals will surcomb and some will be unaffected.
Looking to America, where far more captive animals have been kept for far longer than in Aus the hobby thrives without all the hysteria of the last 11 pages. 
In keeping any pet the risk of disease is a consideration. I still take my dog to the leash free beach to play with the fifty or so other dogs which may or maynot be sick. And he enjoys it!


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## snakehandler (Apr 29, 2009)

My biggest concern is the fact that people have had the virus, or OPMV like virus's, this is not reported and the rest of the reptile community WILL suffer. There was a pet store in Victoria that had a snake present with the symptoms, it was taken to the vet and eutahnised, it was confirmed to have a virus consistant with OPMV and the vet stated that there is no regulation to inform anyone.

The main problem with the reporting of such incidents is that the community backlash will be severe, when it may be that only a few individulas have been purchased. Quarantine is essential, but once it is shown that these animals are infected with any virus will the seller take responsibility.

In my experience with purchasing snakes from around Australia there are many very responsible people, however there are just as many just out for a quick buck. If a snake is not healthy when sold...(we have had several riddled with worms) then the seller should either pay for the vet bills and medical needs or should pay back a percentage of the animal. We have rarely had a person offer to do this. The two biggest problems wit internet sales are 1. people taking money and not sending the animals and 2. the animal is not healthy on delivery.

With our licensing laws it should be easy enough for a vet to report serious cases such as OMPV (CVE) cases to the relevant licensing authoroty in each state and they should follow it up.


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## matt86 (Apr 29, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> It is obvious they aren't trying to hide the possibility of a problem, they aren't continuing trading so why keep trying point fingers and make them feel worse then they already do. They haven't committed a crime, they have received news of possible extreme bad luck to their beautiful collections. Remember these ppl don't want t lose their animals any more than you are frightened of it coming to you.


 
Mysnakesau, the issue is not with the people who have come forward and admitted a problem, and put their collections in a lockdown... the issue, and the cause of the fear/anger from a lot of the people on the forum, comes as a result of the people who have NOT come forward... the people who have been involved in trades, sales, purchases etc with the people who HAVE come forward...

That is why people want names, and why they want to trace it back and forward to know who has been involved in any way. AGAIN, I do not support the naming of names, just trying to explain where this fear/anger is coming from...


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## Ozzie Python (Apr 29, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> hey dan, i heard that the animal that introduced it to you was the bumble-bee bhp, true? was it euthanased ? *how many people that you have sold herps to did you warn upon knowing you had problems, i heard none*.


 
Carpetmuncher I think you heard wrong. Dan came out onto the forums and openly discussed his problems, something for which he deserves credit for. From what i remember he only sold a small amount of snakes, and those people were contacted and took correct measures to prevent it spreading further. I believe dan also mentioned he thought the virus came into his collection with some sick jungle pythons. As a result he euthanized his entire snake collection. 

It really shows which direction this hobby is heading when people start flaming one of the genuine good guys of the hobby.


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## geckodan (Apr 29, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> hey dan, i heard that the animal that introduced it to you was the bumble-bee bhp, true? was it euthanased ? how many people that you have sold herps to did you warn upon knowing you had problems, i heard none.



No. I have never even had the pleasure of seeing the bumblebee in the flesh. I had not had the oppportunity to even sell my first snake when my collection was euthanased so no snakes left my premises at all except in glass jars filled with formalin.


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## wokka (Apr 29, 2009)

Shutting the gate after the horse has bolted; comes to mind. Only those keepers who dont bother to quarantine should worry. Its too late conducting a witchunt after the event as there is no cure, The only way is prevention which involves treating every animal as though it were infected.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 29, 2009)

Mark, 
No problems in my collection at all. What about yours.?!!!!


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## moreliainsanity (Apr 29, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Mark,
> No problems in my collection at all. What about yours.?!!!!


 
This thread is an eye opener:shock: I figure a lot more things is getting said.
Bigger problem here than what people think it is.

True blue and Herpkeeper, what's the go between you two?
reading your post is hilarious like passing a bomb game LOL
What is it all about???

Leigh


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## Ozzie Python (Apr 29, 2009)

putting opmv into a thread is usually as entertaining as throwing hybrid into the mix. I agree with wokkas comments about treating any suspect animal as though it has the virus, i think we all know that isn't going to happen. Lets just hope in the future people do the right thing, and breeders keep contact details of anyone they sell animals to so any outbreaks can be contained.


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## Wild~Touch (Apr 29, 2009)

Never ever had any problems with my animals all are thriving and I can sleep at night perhaps it is because 

NO ONE touches my snakes, I don't handle anybody elses animals and a selected few people are invited to

my premises...any new animal stays in quarantine for at least six months downstairs away from the others..

Gotta admit it takes a lot of pleasure out of keeping reptiles BUT IT IS THE ONLY WAY I can keep my animals 

and rest easy. Some people may call me a grouchy old B....... who cares.....my animals are sale

Cheers
Sandee


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## snakehandler (Apr 29, 2009)

If you have them in quarantine and one does show signs of OPMV do you bother to contact the person you bought it from, just because you have isolated it in your collection what is to stop a person to continue to sell not only the infected animals but also infected equipment.

Its not a name and shame game, it is a protect the reptile community issue.


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## Wild~Touch (Apr 29, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> If you have them in quarantine and one does show signs of OPMV do you bother to contact the person you bought it from, just because you have isolated it in your collection what is to stop a person to continue to sell not only the infected animals but also infected equipment.
> 
> Its not a name and shame game, it is a protect the reptile community issue.




Hi snakehandller

As stated I have never ever had one single problem with any of my animals

BUT...if ever in the future there is something not right noticed by me ..straightaway I would inform the seller then 

take the animal to a reputable reptile vet for further investigation.

I care about the animals more than any other factor

Cheers
Sandee


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## =bECS= (Apr 29, 2009)

moreliainsanity said:


> True blue and Herpkeeper, what's the go between you two?
> reading your post is hilarious like passing a bomb game LOL
> Leigh



Thats what i was thinking, everytime i read a reply for some reason i picture Bill Clinton trying to convince himself on tv ''I DID not have relations with that woman'' and that other infamous one ''My first instinct was to DENY DENY DENY'' :lol: :lol: :lol:



All this bickering back and forth and news coming to light of others who have had / have the diesase and continue to trade etc makes me want to stick to just keeping herps with legs!

Personally i think its a dog act if someone would knowingly harbour the disease and not tell all those who have had contact with the collection or purchased from them that they could have contracted it. 
Even worse are those that have animals die from it and try to make a quick $ back by selling enclosures that the animals were kept in.

Its a sorry state of affairs IMO :|


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## matt86 (Apr 29, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> Its not a name and shame game, it is a protect the reptile community issue.


 
Well said Snakehandler... Well said!

And the only people afraid of being named, are those who have something to be ashamed of!


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## itbites (Apr 29, 2009)

Plus if people are named as being associated with these viruses, diseases etc..
They will no doubt loose sales & that would seem to be their main concern? :shock:

Passing the buck isn't going to work, the people who are really concerned about 
their collections will not want to trade with dishonest people who pass the blame.

If the matter is dealt with honestly & openly it may be a different outcome
but somehow I doubt many major breeders/sellers would be most willing to come forward
to say their collection is tainted.

If better quarantine procedures where in place would this have occurred in the first place?


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## junglepython2 (Apr 29, 2009)

wokka said:


> Shutting the gate after the horse has bolted; comes to mind. Only those keepers who dont bother to quarantine should worry. Its too late conducting a witchunt after the event as there is no cure, The only way is prevention which involves treating every animal as though it were infected.


 
No quarantine regime is infallible.


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## snakehandler (Apr 29, 2009)

Bredlislave, 
The question is actually for all people not just you, my point is simple. if an animal comes into your collection (quarantine area or not) once it has been identified as having a particular problem such as a virus, the original owner needs to be contacted as it has come from them. This means that the virus could be in other collections if multiple animals have been bred and sold.

This is why we need to have a reporting system, so we can trace the origins and ensure that other collections are not in danger.


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## John_lisa (Apr 29, 2009)

look itbites is right there will be massive sale decrease for the ppl who come forword and that is understandable but i would have a lot more respect for the breeders that DO come forword cuz like bredlislave has pritty much said its the reptiles that we should be thinking about not how fat we can get are wallets and i mean if those ppl that have got it come forward sure u may get a lil abuse from some ppl but if had bought from them i would be thanking them for haveing the guts to come out because at the end of the day there would be a lot less stress for some ppl and the once that do have it can then possably controle this now im no excpert with OPMV so i may be wrong it may be harder to controle but im pritty sure it make it a hell of a lot easyer to if we new who had it and i mean once its controled if thats possable everything will go back to normal and hopfully ppl will do more to prevent it from starting again i mean i may be wrong it may not be that easy but thats what i think


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## haymista (Apr 29, 2009)

Just a point of interest, while snakes can live for up to 8 months without showing symptoms, the virus can be triggered by stress undertaken by the snake i.e having godknowswhat happening to it during the 12 hours in freight. Also hatchies are much more easily killed by it. Just like humans, when the immune system is down viruses can attack a lot more easily.


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## herpkeeper (Apr 29, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Mark,
> No problems in my collection at all. What about yours.?!!!!


 

i don't think it's my collection in doubt here ? 
i didn't receive animals off the same people that YOU, luke and Danny Brown did, all at the same time... and luke and Danny - well we all know the outcome of that ???

i'm not the one who posted up "i'm getting out of pythons - they bore me" hmmm ???
i didn't say "green pythons are boring hunks of gorilla snot and i don't know why anyone would want one ! did I ? how many are in your collection at the moment robin ?

here's Dave (pilbara pythons) and Danny both trying to promote wild caught animals saying that wild caught animals are safer than most captives
& you turn around and say that luke could have taken something nasty back to his animals from playing with a wild one ??? aren't you suppose to be partners with Dave ? that totally contradicts what he is trying to promote doesn't it ??? ( don't worry Dave, i agree with you- no offence to you or Danny)

not very consistant are you robin ? doesn't take Einstein to put this one together 

like i said - not my collection under doubt - till now thanks to you and your jelousy


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## moreliainsanity (Apr 29, 2009)

herpkeeper said:


> i don't think it's my collection in doubt here ?
> i didn't receive animals off the same people that YOU, luke and Danny Brown did, all at the same time... and luke and Danny - well we all know the outcome of that ???
> 
> i'm not the one who posted up "i'm getting out of pythons - they bore me" hmmm ???
> ...


 

Whew:shock: Is what you're saying what i'm interpretting here, this is seriously scary stuff, I will definately stop buying from now unless I really know the reputation of the seller.

Leigh


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## herpkeeper (Apr 29, 2009)

yeah well like what has already been said - reputations don't mean much when there is $$$$ to be made


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## solar 17 (Apr 29, 2009)

*Immune supression*

Haymista....Just like humans, when the immune system is down viruses can attack a lot more easily. This sentence you wrote l personally believe is so true a lot of people appear to think reptiles are bullet proof with the amount time they can go between meals but in the confined conditions we tend to keep them in and in some cases totally unsuitable housing and incorrect temp cycles its not surprising viruses get a hold.....cheers solar 17 [Baden]


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 29, 2009)

I would just like to add that although I sell and deal in wild caught reptiles, I only believe this to a safe scenario if the area has not been infiltrated by diseased escaped captives in the first place.
In 6 years I have never ever seen or had a sick reptile specimen here in the Pilbara.
The question remains though, would I now consider bush areas on the fringes of Cairns etc as being potentially untainted theses days, no I wouldn’t. 
I have to thank my lucky stars that we are so far free from seeing these horrible virus’s in the Pilbara. Furthermore I am so glad that all my stock here that I breed from has been personally collected by myself, it makes me never want to leave this place.
However, the poor soles out side of W.A purchasing from private collections of questionable origin, clearly walk a minefield blindfolded.


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## Jonno from ERD (Apr 29, 2009)

carpetmuncher said:


> hey dan, i heard that the animal that introduced it to you was the bumble-bee bhp, true? was it euthanased ? how many people that you have sold herps to did you warn upon knowing you had problems, i heard none.


 

Pull your head in, mate. These sort of questions that are based on chinese whisers should be kept to a PM. Fair enough it's a relevant question if you have heard it on the grapevine, but mud sticks regardless of whether it's true or false.

Danny is one of the very few keepers in Australia that have had the balls and respect to put his hand up as having an infected collection, and the ONLY one I have heard of to actually euthanise the entire lot. I regularly visit Danny's place and was one of the first people to get the phone call from him, just as a precaution on my behalf. 

Danny's actions immediately put him at the top of my list of Australia's most respected herpers (Sorry Ray, you'll have to take second spot) and that should be the same for everybody who knows of what he did.


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## Kersten (Apr 29, 2009)

The damage that people can cause when they speak out of turn, be it deliberately or in ignorance, is disturbing. As I said before, this whole thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. The most shameful thing is that it's a completely accurate insight into the hobby, not just an isolated incidence of deceit and rumour mongering. This is what it's all about.

Before anyone jumps to conclusion about my motive or meaning in that statement, I am referring to the aftermath of the initial revelation. I am not in any way, shape or form having a go at the two boys who have started this thread, to Luke or to Dave. I am speaking of the ridiculous accusations being thrown about by people (at least two of whom are probably regular members using aliases to get away with speaking out of turn) who are clearly showing disrespect, disregard and in some cases outright malice to the lives and reputations of others.


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## reptilegirl_jordan (Apr 29, 2009)

Kersten said:


> The damage that people can cause when they speak out of turn, be it deliberately or in ignorance, is disturbing. As I said before, this whole thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. The most shameful thing is that it's a completely accurate insight into the hobby, not just an isolated incidence of deceit and rumour mongering. This is what it's all about.
> 
> Before anyone jumps to conclusion about my motive or meaning in that statement, I am referring to the aftermath of the initial revelation. I am not in any way, shape or form having a go at the two boys who have started this thread, to Luke or to Dave. I am speaking of the ridiculous accusations being thrown about by people (at least two of whom are probably regular members using aliases to get away with speaking out of turn) who are clearly showing disrespect, disregard and in some cases outright malice to the lives and reputations of others.


 i agree.
This is not the way things should be handled.This whole thread has proved how bitchy and stupid some reptile keepers are...


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## Netty (Apr 29, 2009)

Once again i will ask is the seller going to pay the vet bills??
if there is a partnership between the seller and some mebers on this site maybe they could answer for him??
I am sure everyone would like to know!


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## Mrs I (Apr 29, 2009)

Is the seller going to notify all other purchasers in say the last 6 months and let them know ??

And is the seller going to try find out the source in which he may have got it off, and so on and so on ....


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 29, 2009)

Netty
Luke shall reimburse the vet bill when he receives an unedited histopathology report and receipts. The people concerned have been told this for some time now.


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## CodeRed (Apr 29, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Netty
> Luke shall reimburse the vet bill when he receives an unedited histopathology report and receipts. The people concerned have been told this for some time now.



Comeone Dave who do you think you are kidding. Luke Warren has had this report for some time and is just stalling. Time to pay up.


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## mysnakesau (Apr 29, 2009)

OPMV can incubate for up to 12 months. So those who have written here, that they follow strict quarantine protocol for 6 months may not be quarantining them long enough for this virus to show its face, if it is going to. Another has already pointed out on this thread that even a carrier can seem healthy and suddenly show all the symptoms in say 8 months. By this time you have introduced your new snakes to your collection. 

I've also heard from various sources that OPMV in Australia isn't the same strain that is effecting reptiles in other countries. The strain here in Australia, although symptoms are very much the same it does not show up when tested. Thats why (so I discovered) Veterinary reports will state "showing symptoms consistent with OPMV" and don't give a confirmed postive diagnosis. So maybe what we have here is a strain that has developed here, perhaps from wild snakes? Still more mystery that goes unsolved.


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## seumas12345 (Apr 29, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> OPMV can incubate for up to 12 months. So those who have written here, that they follow strict quarantine protocol for 6 months may not be quarantining them long enough for this virus to show its face, if it is going to. Another has already pointed out on this thread that even a carrier can seem healthy and suddenly show all the symptoms in say 8 months. By this time you have introduced your new snakes to your collection.
> 
> I've also heard from various sources that OPMV in Australia isn't the same strain that is effecting reptiles in other countries. The strain here in Australia, although symptoms are very much the same it does not show up when tested. Thats why (so I discovered) Veterinary reports will state "showing symptoms consistent with OPMV" and don't give a confirmed postive diagnosis. So maybe what we have here is a strain that has developed here, perhaps from wild snakes? Still more mystery that goes unsolved.


 
100% spot on! This is the most accurate post I've read in this thread. I spoke to an experienced vet the other day who told me that we don't actually get OPMV in Australia, it is simply another virus/strain that shows similar symptoms.


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## Mrs I (Apr 29, 2009)

This is better than Days of our Lives, or even Neighbours !


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## iceman (Apr 29, 2009)

codered, i never denied receiving it, when i got home from the reptile expo in gladstone i check my p.o. box an there was no mail in it from them, so you are the one who needs to get your facts right . an as i told paul i will pay for there vet bill once i get what i've ask from them.

i'll be checking my p.o. box tomorrow an if everythink i've ask for is in my p.o. box i will pay for the vet bill right there an then.


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## haymista (Apr 29, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Netty
> Luke shall reimburse the vet bill when he receives an unedited histopathology report and receipts. The people concerned have been told this for some time now.


 
First ive heard of it, i sent both reports to luke via express post over a week ago, i have the followup number right here in front of me. As far as editing goes, i dont see how its relevant what pauls last name is. Both copies are signed by Dr Vella with dates corresponding to these events and a client number is included, seeing how you dont know his last name anyway i dont see what difference it makes.

Dave it seems YOU are accusing ME of lying and sibmitting a false report!!! After the shti this has put us through it really annoys me when im accused of being dishonest. We are trying to do the right thing here.


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## NCHERPS (Apr 29, 2009)

I would like to remind you all again to keep it civil.

Thankyou.

The Mod Team.


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 29, 2009)

Haymista
Don’t be so paranoid, I have already told your partner, that by supplying the un changed report rules out any foul play and furthermore doesn’t automatically mean that you haven’t been honest. If you mate doesn’t tell you the details of that conversation with me then that is not my fault.
The professional way to handle this is too simply to comply and receive your money back.
You or your buddy can say what ever reason you like as to why no clients name was on the report e-mailed to me personally. Remember though, removing the name does not make it proof that it is actually your mates report in the first place and additionally this does not mean that there was any ill intention or foul play at hand ( which I really don’t think there is ), it simply rules out the possibility. You can’t expect to have it both ways.


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## Dan123 (Apr 29, 2009)

you got your first snake in march?


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## elapid66 (Apr 29, 2009)

internet forums got ta luv em i think you all need to get a room


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## haymista (Apr 29, 2009)

sorry for jumping to conclusions dave, i think i lost my cool there
I think the focus of this thread needs to change. lol elapids right but the ethics behind these viruses in general needs to be talked about imo
i.e what to do if you have one etc.

Itd be a shame if one of these viruses spreads throughout the herp community because we (yes that includes me) cant stop fighting about it


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## mysnakesau (Apr 29, 2009)

haymista said:


> First ive heard of it, i sent both reports to luke via express post over a week ago, i have the followup number right here in front of me. .....



registered post is a much more reliable service than Express Post. At least with Registered Post the receiver needs to sign for it which gives the sender confirmation that they have indeed received the document.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 29, 2009)

Lets try this again, and answer your questions mark.

My collection is not in dought im 100% sure of that.

As you well know you do have a snake in your collection from the same people that you are refering to.

I actually have a number of greens here atm, but yes your right as soon as the albino olives start breeeding i will get mostly out of pythons and get back into elapids, much less boring snakes.

If you read Dannys post propally you will realise that i was only speculating on how a virus like this could get into someones collection, if infact there are forms of these retro virus naturally occouring in the wild. Pure speculation nothing more.

Finally could you please tell me how i could ever be jealous of you as you seem to think that i am.?????


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## iceman (Apr 29, 2009)

arbok, i just when down then an check my mail, an you still have not sent me what i ask for, i have the 2 reports, but as i ask for them with a clients name on them an you said you would send them with a client name,which they clearly don't have on them. an i ask for the receipts of the vet bill so i could pay for it, an you have not sent them, so how do you expect me to pay if i have no receipts for what it cost you .

send me what i ask for an the bill will be pay, you have my word on that .


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## Mrs I (Apr 29, 2009)

Is the seller going to notify all other purchasers in say the last 6 months and let them know ??

And is the seller going to try find out the source in which he may have got it off, and so on and so on ....[/


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## PilbaraPythons (Apr 29, 2009)

Haymista
Apology accepted.

Regards Dave


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## haymista (Apr 29, 2009)

iceman said:


> arbok, i just when down then an check my mail, an you still have not sent me what i ask for, i have the 2 reports, but as i ask for them with a clients name on them an you said you would send them with a client name,which they clearly don't have on them. an i ask for the receipts of the vet bill so i could pay for it, an you have not sent them, so how do you expect me to pay if i have no receipts for what it cost you .
> 
> send me what i ask for an the bill will be pay, you have my word on that .


 
Thanks iceman, it was actually me who sent the reports, i only just found out that you want the unedited version. I believe that, although we've known the prices from the beginning, arbok has only recently recieved the official invoice. We will be sure to send all three documents asap.


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## iceman (Apr 29, 2009)

thank you haymista


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## herpkeeper (Apr 29, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> Lets try this again, and answer your questions mark.
> 
> My collection is not in dought im 100% sure of that.
> 
> ...


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## TrueBlue (Apr 29, 2009)

A spotted python mark.


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## herpkeeper (Apr 29, 2009)

i am going to sign a staturtory declaration and post it on this thread & i would like an independant witness to veiw my spotted python pages and see if anyone "referred" to on this OPMV thread are in my book. 
unlike you i have nothing to hide and am more than willing to prove so. 
furthermore, if you keep trying to ruin my credibility in public, i WILL take you to court for defamation of character.............


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## snakehandler (Apr 29, 2009)

And this is why people do not report suspicious deaths....gives people a chance to judge others...a chance to have a go at each other.


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## funcouple (Apr 29, 2009)

i think its time all started working together to save this hobby instead of all these arguments and denials


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## -Matt- (Apr 29, 2009)

funcouple said:


> i think its time all started working together to save this hobby instead of all these arguments and denials


 
Couldnt agree more. These attempts to try and defame each other are beyond rediculous!


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## John_lisa (Apr 29, 2009)

funcouple said:


> i think its time all started working together to save this hobby instead of all these arguments and denials


 
i also agree to this if u guys keep going the way ur going ur going to turn ppl off keeping reptiles


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## wokka (Apr 30, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> OPMV can incubate for up to 12 months. So those who have written here, that they follow strict quarantine protocol for 6 months may not be quarantining them long enough for this virus to show its face, if it is going to. Another has already pointed out on this thread that even a carrier can seem healthy and suddenly show all the symptoms in say 8 months. By this time you have introduced your new snakes to your collection.
> 
> I've also heard from various sources that OPMV in Australia isn't the same strain that is effecting reptiles in other countries. The strain here in Australia, although symptoms are very much the same it does not show up when tested. Thats why (so I discovered) Veterinary reports will state "showing symptoms consistent with OPMV" and don't give a confirmed postive diagnosis. So maybe what we have here is a strain that has developed here, perhaps from wild snakes? Still more mystery that goes unsolved.



There is a line somewhere when opmv stops and a new disease starts. It doesn't really matter if the disease is opmv , a new strain of opmv, or a new vius. The important thing is that there are diseases out there, discovered and undiscoverrred that are contageous and can kill reptiles. Accordingly all animals should be treated as though contageous and contact with other animals and keepers minimised. This is the way all animals are kept eg Johnes in sheep and cattle doesn't close the industry down but does require that stock owners take it into account in their day to day management practices.Panic and paranoir helps nothing.


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## TrueBlue (Apr 30, 2009)

Come on mark, for once in your life tell the truth and show some honesty. The spotted in question was sent down for someone else and you wanted it so bad, and the other person didnt mind, that you swaped it for one of yours.
Take me to court, everything i have said is true.


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## matt86 (Apr 30, 2009)

TrueBlue & Herpkeeper,
Guys... you're embarrassing yourselves... Time to swallow some pride and let it go! 
I'm really not trying to have a go at you here... just trying to point out how out of control it's gotten, and hope you can both drop it...

The thing is, a number of breeders have jumped onto this thread, and claimed that (and I'm parphrasing here) 'The reason people don't come forward when they have a suspicious death is because of all the allegations and damage to their repuation that follows.' I find it amazing that the hostility is not coming from potential buyers, but from your fellow breeders! 
You're eating each other alive, and stitching up your own fate in the process!

Stop now... No irreversible damage has been done yet!
I don't really know either of you from a bar of soap. I have a healthy collection that I want to protect... Whether or not you have had some scares in your collection, I would still consider buying from you in the future. It's how you conduct yourself as a breeder that determines how potential buyers think of you!


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## Carpetcleaner (Apr 30, 2009)

> The thing is, a number of breeders have jumped onto this thread, and claimed that (and I'm parphrasing here) 'The reason people don't come forward when they have a suspicious death is because of all the allegations and damage to their repuation that follows.' I find it amazing that the hostility is not coming from potential buyers, but from your fellow breeders!
> You're eating each other alive, and stitching up your own fate in the process!
> 
> Stop now... No irreversible damage has been done yet!
> I don't really know either of you from a bar of soap. I have a healthy collection that I want to protect... Whether or not you have had some scares in your collection, I would still consider buying from you in the future. It's how you conduct yourself as a breeder that determines how potential buyers think of you!


 

So well said. Scarey stuff this OPMV. I am so thankful I am in WA, but that is not to say that we won't end up with it over here at some stage down the track, as is probable. It is just sad to see everyone fly into damage control and immediately get onto the defence. It would be great to see everyone working together for a common cause. 
So much of what has been said would have been so much better said in a private message.
I am not interested in seeing anybodies dirty laundry being hung out in the open, skid marks and all. I would much rather see people working together to try and rectify the situation.
I sincerely hope that all the animosity can be abolished and a guideline of protocols be formatted in dealing with situations like these.


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## Retic (Apr 30, 2009)

As far as everyone getting together to stop this I'm sorry it just wont happen, that's not me being a pessimist but I am being a realist. Too many egos and too much money involved I'm afraid.


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## kupper (Apr 30, 2009)

i think end off the day you should all be talking to one another off the forums to document and track what went where and how many animals are in questions swollow the pride and communicate


this is something that without some form of cooperation will continue to get passed around so be honest top yourselves and others 

that is what is goign to save your credibility in your future endevours


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