# Say yes to the Jag



## ronhalling (Jan 30, 2013)

Wow, i thought we had some nice Carpets here in OZ but after watching this short video ReptillisHerps Carpet Python Morph Collection - YouTube i found a pile of drool on my puter desk and had a sudden urge to drag my wife off to the bedroom, these are amazing..................................................................Ron


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## RSPcrazy (Jan 30, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG fan of snake racks, I have a couple my self, but it makes me sick to see snakes in tubs that they have clearly out grown and can hardly turn around in, especially when the snake is a highly arboreal species and has nothing to climb on.


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## joelysmoley (Jan 30, 2013)

I agree with RSPcrazy, but i really liked that last jag in the video.


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## thomasssss (Jan 30, 2013)

RSPcrazy said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG fan of snake racks, I have a couple my self, but it makes me sick to see snakes in tubs that they have clearly out grown and can hardly turn around in, especially when the snake is a highly arboreal species and has nothing to climb on.


if you read the comments his apparently upgrading them within the week ( that was 5 months ago ) but i agree with what your saying

op , just curious but what exactly are you getting at with the thread tittle


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

They are really pretty but yeah like most people have said I don't agree with how they are kept. But that's just my opinion. Beautiful snakes though.


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> and had a sudden urge to drag my wife off to the bedroom,



Lol. Um seriously though I agree with the others, give them more room! Especially to climb.
nice snakes but I just can't like jags no matter how beautiful they are. 
But a good vid.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 30, 2013)

Since you are on the subject of youtube why don't you have a look at the vids after searching "jag python neuro".


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Since you are on the subject of youtube why don't you have a look at the vids after searching "jag python neuro".



Severe Jaguar Nuero Issues - YouTube

Ok I was a little bit annoyed with this. "People don't like to talk about this, but this does happen, and no one will want it because of it's problem" then later on goes "there's no denying it, Jags have problems" I'm assuming he's going to have it put down humanely. But how would I know? I just think it's quite sad that these are bred knowing the complications. As much as I like the look of them, I coudln't honeslty commit myself to breeding or supporting an industry where you are unaware of how many suffer from these types of problems. However to each their own, like I always say.


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

If they were natural, i would like them, but i just cant get past the fact that they are a genetic shamble created only for their looks, instead of having a nice pet. 
The main problem i have though, is like a few people have already mentioned, the tub sizes. I have never actually seen a morph breeder who keeps their snakes in enclosures. It is always empty tubs with newspaper and a water bowl. The snakes are just kept in the smallest tub possible, even if they did have enough space to turn around, what kind of life is that? These poor animals are just used to create the next line of genetic mutations, no morph is good enough, it's always the next one that the keeper is excited about. 

No animal deserves to be kept in these conditions their whole life. Hatchlings to yearlings in tubs i understand, But adult snakes and even adult burms or huge boas, It's just disgusting and cruel. People seem to have convinced themselves that snakes don't need a lot of room, so there for, keeping them in tiny, plastic tubs is acceptable. Just because a snake can survive in these conditions, doesnt mean they should.

I hope this morph trend never takes off here like it has in America.


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

Thankyou hamalicious I couldn't think of a better way to put it and someone who fully thinks the exact same way I feel. We can never be satisfied and I think it's truly horrible that we neglect snakes like this and breed them for the beauty despite the snake having neuro. They don't care. They want beauty and if they have to mess up the pure lines and bring neuro into the snakes then so be it. It's quite sick actually.
snakes are living and don't deserve to be treated like experiments and money makers. IMO they deserve more than most of us as they're not the ones doing stupid things to other living things.


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## Burnerism (Jan 30, 2013)

We can thank greedy money hungry big breeders for mass producing this disgusting gene instead of taking the time to develop RPM lines. Defently some beautiful looking healthy jags around but having them is not worth also having the ones with neuro problems especially when there is an alternative. Bananapeel is right aswell that consumers are to blame just as much as it's human nature to want the new bright shiny toy. To many people seeing $$ signs then to give a rats about animal welfare. P.s I have no problem with morphs there's some awesome jags and carpondros but watching a neuro snake spaz around is appalling.


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

+1 snakes don't need messing up to look beautiful. I find it very exciting when things like paradox albinos pop up and pied childrenis etc as they are naturally occurring and a miracle of nature. I love that the hobby is naturally developing and we are able to keep albino spotteds because nature made it so. Not because of some sick people who can't appreciate what is offered to us.


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## The_Geeza (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> We can thank greedy money hungry big breeders for mass producing this disgusting gene instead of taking the time to develop RPM lines. Defently some beautiful looking healthy jags around but having them is not worth also having the ones with neuro problems especially when there is an alternative. Bananapeel is right aswell that consumers are to blame just as much as it's human nature to want the new bright shiny toy. To many people seeing $$ signs then to give a rats about animal welfare. P.s I have no problem with morphs there's some awesome jags and carpondros but watching a neuro snake spaz around is appalling.


U mean RP not RPM as these r Jags
Ta 
Pete


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## IceWhiteFreak (Jan 30, 2013)

I think I'm starting to get neuro problems from reading noob posts...


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> Since you are on the subject of youtube why don't you have a look at the vids after searching "jag python neuro".



7th post in, the purists are getting slowerrr 
pick up your game


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

Gotta love all natural Aussie snakes! Cant beat them


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

True that ^^^


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## sara_sabian (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm not going to weigh in on yet another jag debate but I would like to point out that the jag gene was a random occurance just like the pied gene and albinism. No one microwaved eggs or anything to create them, it is reasonable to assume that something like the jag gene could present itself in wild populations just as albinism has. The jag gene is every bit as 'naturally occurring' and a 'miracle of nature' as is every other gene that's been mentioned in this thread. 

Admittedly the jag gene has been played with perhaps more than the other mutations and the jag gene certainly has its drawbacks (as do other mutations) but they are no more man-made than any other mutation. Man exploited maybe, man-made? No.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 30, 2013)

The jag gene is also naturally occurring...

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Ooops Sara beat me


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## Burnerism (Jan 30, 2013)

My bad! Yes it may be naturally occurring but unlike other weak genes like albinism we are not causing animal suffering by privately keeping them and exploiting it.


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

Yeah I understand it was a fluke and not intended but it has pretty much turned into a man made problem after all the modifying done etc etc. I mean more to the point that albinism for example occurred naturally (as did the jag gene) but has continued to be inherited into more generation in the snakes and it doesn't cause neuro like the jag gene does. Albinism has not been messed with. Pure jags were a nice snake but people couldn't be happy with it and I'm amazed there hasn't been something done about the ability to keep producing snakes with health issues.these are my views only.


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> We can thank greedy money hungry big breeders for mass producing this disgusting gene instead of taking the time to develop RPM lines. Defently some beautiful looking healthy jags around but having them is not worth also having the ones with neuro problems especially when there is an alternative. Bananapeel is right aswell that consumers are to blame just as much as it's human nature to want the new bright shiny toy. To many people seeing $$ signs then to give a rats about animal welfare. P.s I have no problem with morphs there's some awesome jags and carpondros but watching a neuro snake spaz around is appalling.



Your admitting they are good looking snakes and i feel you should have left it there, This post started off very innocent and highlighting some good looking snakes. This argument of morals that keeps getting thrown around every time someone mentions a jag is getting old and its time people accept it as part of hobby. If you genuinely are concerned about animal welfare im going to assume you are a vegan and an animal activist.


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

You have a point, the jag gene is not man made, but that isnt the point. We are talking about the people who exploit them and whether they should or not. Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> You have a point, the jag gene is not man made, but that isnt the point. We are talking about the people who exploit them and whether they should or not. Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.



No, WE are talking about nice looking snakes as this thread was obviously intended to host such a discussion.


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## sara_sabian (Jan 30, 2013)

I do see your point, I was talking to a respected breeder the other day about people that used to stop traffic to move a snake off the road and now freeze entire or half of a clutch of snakes all for the $ I don't believe that this represents the majority or breeders though. 

I have a jag and she is stunning to look at but she does corkscrew and flip which is pretty unpleasant to see. I knew there was a possibility of this happening before I got her but I don't imagine I'll be buying any more of them or breeding from her. She'll be a display snake only, a display snake that is too stressed to be put on display unfortunately

At the end of the day jags are stunning, no matter how you feel about them and it's impossible to dictate to someone else where their line of morality ought to be drawn, no amount of argument is going to change that.


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## longqi (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Your admitting they are good looking snakes and i feel you should have left it there, This post started off very innocent and highlighting some good looking snakes. This argument of morals that keeps getting thrown around every time someone mentions a jag is getting old and its time people accept it as part of hobby. If you genuinely are concerned about animal welfare im going to assume you are a vegan and an animal activist.




Using the moral argument against a form of breeding anything that can result in negative health result
for the animal being bred is perfectly fair and logical

Animal activists care about animal wefare
SO
Does your quote mean that jag breeders dont care about animal welfare??

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Hamalicious said:


> You have a point, the jag gene is not man made, but that isnt the point. We are talking about the people who exploit them and whether they should or not. Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.



Albinism most certainly does affect health in any animal including man


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## sara_sabian (Jan 30, 2013)

Hamalicious said:


> Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.



This is not always the case, I think you need to do some more research before making such a broad statement.


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

longqi said:


> Using the moral argument against a form of breeding anything that can result in negative health result
> for the animal being bred is perfectly fair and logical
> 
> Animal activists care about animal wefare
> ...



Somewhat yes but i do believe it is their choice to make and they obviously have to consider it before taking part in something so frowned upon, i don't believe it should be preached here when there the OP obviously posted this to display some good looking jags. I don't mean they keep their pythons in bad conditions but surely they know when starting it that they may have to make some tough decisions..

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Burnerism said:


> Ummm we were discussing animal welfare as you drew stupid comparisons. I suppose I better step back tho hey, this bloke knows "top end respected breeders". Get over yourself. This is getting off topic real quick.



You took "Know" out of context, please do read over what i wrote. I know the top end respected breeders in this country do so ... Not i know them .. lol


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Haha i dont even own jags but i know the top end respected breeders in this country do so maybe thats a question you should be asking them,



I think what Burnerism asked, was is this how you keep your herps? Not jags. I think the point a majority of people here are trying to make is, although a beautiful snake, with natural found qualities, it has been fiddled with to the point where it is causing distress and problems within the breed. I mean you wouldn't keep breeding dogs that were related just because of one awesome trait they had would you? And honestly would you keep those dogs in a cage they could only stand and turn around in? If you would, then that is on your moral conscious and for your higher self to deal with. The fact is we agree that they are an amazing snake to look at, the unfortunate aspect is there appears to be a lot of side effects attached to "gaining the perfect jag". Maybe a little respect for each other and the animals in question is all we are asking for. We can accept and respect that these are beautiful creatures, and accept the fact that they deserve a nice enclosure, and deserve the right not to exploited and have deliberate influences creating serious health issues. However as said before only my opinion in any of this.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Haha i dont even own jags but i know the top end respected breeders in this country do so maybe thats a question you should be asking them,



Top end and respected shouldn't necessarily always go hand in hand.


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## Burnerism (Jan 30, 2013)

Haha this is getting tiresome and points are been missed. Anyway moving on, is there any general health issues known with carpondros? Mainly from the humidity of the tree python x?

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Well said TheJoyces! Sums it up well.


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## ronhalling (Jan 30, 2013)

Hamalicious is the only 1 to really get what the thread "say yes to the Jag" is all about, it's the americans and their can't leave well enough alone mentallity that is causing all this, they are almost throwing out a challenge to us and others watching the video to accept what they are doing,i fell for the beauty of these jags untill i read the nuero problems associated with there breeding, i was also appalled with what they were keeping them in but he said he was in the process of changing them up to enclosures but i am sure there are many many more being kept in deplorable conditions.................................................Ron


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## Skippii (Jan 30, 2013)

My god you guys make it hard not to jump in and join the debate..

ANYWAY... Those are some gorgeous snakes! Personally though, I'm just as happy with my natural critters.

I've definitely got an issue what the "enclosures" he's keeping those poor slitherers in.. Pretty damn cruel.

x


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

sara_sabian said:


> This is not always the case, I think you need to do some more research before making such a broad statement.



Actually yes, i have done research. Albinism rarely, if ever, results in other health problems. It only causes problems when in conjunction with other, pre-existing, non albinism related health issues. On the whole, Albino animals are just as healthy as the rest of the population. I have read this from many different medical journals and other sources. 

If you have information i am not aware of, i have no problem with being wrong.


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

TheJoyces said:


> I think what Burnerism asked, was is this how you keep your herps? Not jags. I think the point a majority of people here are trying to make is, although a beautiful snake, with natural found qualities, it has been fiddled with to the point where it is causing distress and problems within the breed. I mean you wouldn't keep breeding dogs that were related just because of one awesome trait they had would you? And honestly would you keep those dogs in a cage they could only stand and turn around in? If you would, then that is on your moral conscious and for your higher self to deal with. The fact is we agree that they are an amazing snake to look at, the unfortunate aspect is there appears to be a lot of side effects attached to "gaining the perfect jag". Maybe a little respect for each other and the animals in question is all we are asking for. We can accept and respect that these are beautiful creatures, and accept the fact that they deserve a nice enclosure, and deserve the right not to exploited and have deliberate influences creating serious health issues. However as said before only my opinion in any of this.



Suggesting that people that own jags arnt prone to upholding a level of animal welfare was his point and i thought it should be stated that i don't even own jags so my husbandry techniques should'nt be under the microscope (Not that anyone "Pro jag" should be labeled like that).

I do agree that some respect should be shown at all times not just between the two sides of this argument as we are all at different levels and expectations of this hobby we all share but stepping in and defending people who are often put down for supporting jags or showing them off has shown me how passionate people are in a good way. I just ask that people step back and take the time before ripping someones head off for appreciating the beauty of a snake, often times they do not realize the back ground story of jags. 

As I've said i do not own jags and probably never will but i do believe they are a beautiful snake and would'nt change (or try to change) that we have them because for some people designing pythons is a hobby in itself and i respect that.


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> No, WE are talking about nice looking snakes as this thread was obviously intended to host such a discussion.



Read my first post mate, i agreed they were nice looking snakes and that, if they were natural, i would like them. My problem is the mentality of the breeders and their lack of care for animal welfare. If you dont like people expressing their views, stay off the forums.

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ozimid said:


> Could have swarm it did yrs ago ???


Yes it did, but not to the level the American morph breeders have taken it.


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Haha this is getting tiresome and points are been missed. Anyway moving on, is there any general health issues known with carpondros? Mainly from the humidity of the tree python x?
> 
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> 
> Well said TheJoyces! Sums it up well.



I have been trying to find out information on a lot of the cross bred snakes, and obviously there isn't a lot to be sourced. From what I have read about carpondros is that they take on more of the carpet gene. Assuming like everything in the wild and genetics the strongest gene will usually (99.9% of the time) be the dominant. However trying to source information on complications arising from this cross bred snake is a little harder to sniff out. Anything that's reliable any way. People aren't going to go around breeding things and pointing out all the negetives and failing points are they!? I will keep happily reading and digesting information as it comes and will happily share it on though. There are a few UK sites that talk about them.


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

TheJoyces said:


> I think what Burnerism asked, was is this how you keep your herps? Not jags. I think the point a majority of people here are trying to make is, although a beautiful snake, with natural found qualities, it has been fiddled with to the point where it is causing distress and problems within the breed. I mean you wouldn't keep breeding dogs that were related just because of one awesome trait they had would you? And honestly would you keep those dogs in a cage they could only stand and turn around in? If you would, then that is on your moral conscious and for your higher self to deal with. The fact is we agree that they are an amazing snake to look at, the unfortunate aspect is there appears to be a lot of side effects attached to "gaining the perfect jag". Maybe a little respect for each other and the animals in question is all we are asking for. We can accept and respect that these are beautiful creatures, and accept the fact that they deserve a nice enclosure, and deserve the right not to exploited and have deliberate influences creating serious health issues. However as said before only my opinion in any of this.



I agree 100%
they are stunning snakes and I'm yet to find someone who disagrees but the fact that they have a health issue should over power the fact that they're pretty and it needs dealing with.
like jimi Hendrix quote goes "when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace"
fairly simple I think.

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Variety said:


> I just ask that people step back and take the time before ripping someones head off for appreciating the beauty of a snake, often times they do not realize the back ground story of jags.
> 
> As I've said i do not own jags and probably never will but i do believe they are a beautiful snake and would'nt change (or try to change) that we have them because for some people designing pythons is a hobby in itself and i respect that.



i mentioned in my first post that I believe they are stunning snakes and I said again Im yet to find someone who doesn't but the fact that people are putting the designer and beauty side of things before the animals welfare astounds me. Breeders are aware of neuro yet they don't care.


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Suggesting that people that own jags arnt prone to upholding a level of animal welfare was his point and i thought it should be stated that i don't even own jags so my husbandry techniques should'nt be under the microscope (Not that anyone "Pro jag" should be labeled like that).
> 
> I do agree that some respect should be shown at all times not just between the two sides of this argument as we are all at different levels and expectations of this hobby we all share but stepping in and defending people who are often put down for supporting jags or showing them off has shown me how passionate people are in a good way. I just ask that people step back and take the time before ripping someones head off for appreciating the beauty of a snake, often times they do not realize the back ground story of jags.
> 
> As I've said i do not own jags and probably never will but i do believe they are a beautiful snake and would'nt change (or try to change) that we have them because for some people designing pythons is a hobby in itself and i respect that.



If you take the time to read over my posts, I have clearly stated they are a beautiful creature. I have also clearly stated, that however athestically pleasing an animal may be, I however don't condone pratices of genetic manipulation and poor animal welfare. I have also not once stated in any of my calm and collective rebuttals that all "jag breeders" do this. I meerly stated that this particular one in question appeared to keep his "stock" poorly, and for that I dislike, especially the way he spoke about the one with clear neural deficiencies. We are all entitled to form our own opinion and I don't judge any one for what they deem to be acceptable practices or not. All I have stood by is that I would clearly not support an industry where CLEAR representations of genetic malfunctions is present. If you have no qualm with them, than that's your cross to bare. But labelling someone a vegan for not wanting to take part is a bit to critical and a long way off the point. I'm not a vegan. I just don't particularly like what I saw. Nothing more than that.


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## thomasssss (Jan 30, 2013)

maybe we should just start a thread titled JAG DEBATE and see how many pages it goes for , would the mods be cool with that?   atleast it might help keep the arguments in one place 

i dont hate jags and i dont love them either , i definitely think they have their place though and that place is not being sold to newbies that are going to handle and stress them and bring out the nuero , theres more suited snakes for that , part of the reason i dont think the should be sold in pet shops


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## RedFox (Jan 30, 2013)

I suppose my main issue with jags is that only half the cltch actually has the jag gene and the other half are completely undesirable. I don't know any other animal we breed that involves such a waste of life, as let's face it a lot of sibs have very short lives. Then there are the potential for neuro issues as well as the fact the original jags were smuggled animals. 

As for the original post sure some are quite attractive but personally I would choose just a nice jungle over a jag any day. There is a reason why people overseas are jealous of our pythons.


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

TheJoyces said:


> If you take the time to read over my posts, I have clearly stated they are a beautiful creature. I have also clearly stated, that however athestically pleasing an animal may be, I however don't condone pratices of genetic manipulation and poor animal welfare. I have also not once stated in any of my calm and collective rebuttals that all "jag breeders" do this. I meerly stated that this particular one in question appeared to keep his "stock" poorly, and for that I dislike, especially the way he spoke about the one with clear neural deficiencies. We are all entitled to form our own opinion and I don't judge any one for what they deem to be acceptable practices or not. All I have stood by is that I would clearly not support an industry where CLEAR representations of genetic malfunctions is present. If you have no qualm with them, than that's your cross to bare. But labelling someone a vegan for not wanting to take part is a bit to critical and a long way off the point. I'm not a vegan. I just don't particularly like what I saw. Nothing more than that.



The husbandry remark wasn't towards you, it was to someone who assumed that jag owners who supposedly have no care for animal welfare keep their herps in poor conditions. Nobody is defending how the person in the video kept his pythons or how he spoke about the obvious nuero. What a mess .. haha

I dont think what they do is right (my moral opinion) but i do feel as if they know what they are getting into and that is their choice, that's the only reason im defending them. We are in this hobby for different reasons and our passion makes for very heated moment behind the keys of a message board. 

I don't think just because this is a forum we can't fence sit and let people do their own thing. Its either one extreme or another.. If you had a neighbor that bread jags would you be constantly over there telling him that its wrong and theres no place for it, even though you have heard 10+ people say it to him that same day ? 

just something to think about


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 30, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> Why vegan though? Drinking milk and eating eggs doesn't hurt chickens, cows, goats etc. chickens lay eggs naturally :facepalm: cows produce milk.


Have you ever seen a battery hen shed or a huge commercial dairy or piggery. It would churn your stomach. If you don't like how those snakes are kept, you wouldn't want to see how battery hens and pigs are kept. No, I am not vego or vegan but refuse to eat commercially produced cage eggs, pig or large dairy branded milk.

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RedFox said:


> I suppose my main issue with jags is that only half the cltch actually has the jag gene and the other half are completely undesirable. I don't know any other animal we breed that involves such a waste of life, as let's face it a lot of sibs have very short lives. Then there are the potential for neuro issues as well as the fact the original jags were smuggled animals.
> 
> As for the original post sure some are quite attractive but personally I would choose just a nice jungle over a jag any day. There is a reason why people overseas are jealous of our pythons.


Yes, so far one person has posted that they have sibs.


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> The husbandry remark wasn't towards you, it was to someone who assumed that jag owners who supposedly have no care for animal welfare keep their herps in poor conditions. Nobody is defending how the person in the video kept his pythons or how he spoke about the obvious nuero. What a mess .. haha
> 
> I dont think what they do is right (my moral opinion) but i do feel as if they know what they are getting into and that is their choice, that's the only reason im defending them. We are in this hobby for different reasons and our passion makes for very heated moment behind the keys of a message board.
> 
> ...



There's a good reason why I don't talk to my neighbours. Mainly becuase their business is their own and my business is my own. I didn't say he was doing it wrong, I said I disagreed with it. He also placed it on youtube, in order for the world to view and cast their opinion. I have said the whole time it's only my opinion. He can do what he wants. I don't support it. Simple as that.


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## MonitorMayhem (Jan 30, 2013)

This topic (jags) is getting very boring

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This topic (jags) is getting very boring


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

^^ +1 

I agree but going vego isnt the answer, we need to find better ways to get meat, not give up an essential part of our diet all together.


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## richoman_3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> Thankyou hamalicious I couldn't think of a better way to put it and someone who fully thinks the exact same way I feel. We can never be satisfied and I think it's truly horrible that we neglect snakes like this and breed them for the beauty despite the snake having neuro. They don't care. They want beauty and if they have to mess up the pure lines and bring neuro into the snakes then so be it. It's quite sick actually.
> snakes are living and don't deserve to be treated like experiments and money makers. IMO they deserve more than most of us as they're not the ones doing stupid things to other living things.



well said!

jags make me sick! .. The morph crossbreeding and that hobby is gross .. people need to appreciate the amazing wildlife we have here.

besides yes a jag may have been a natural occurrence, but it happened overseas in a coastal. Not a single jag in Australia can be proven to be one of those pure coastal jags


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## Red-Ink (Jan 30, 2013)

Ahhh JAGS... saying JAGs on APS is like dropping the C bomb in the play ground.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 30, 2013)

This thread has somehow gone from a discussion about tub sizes and JAgs to an argument about meat consumer and vegans............ :shock:


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## Red-Ink (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Haha this is getting tiresome and points are been missed. Anyway moving on, is there any general health issues known with carpondros? Mainly from the humidity of the tree python x?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Well said TheJoyces! Sums it up well.



No known health issues with carpondros... legal issues, well that's a whole other topic altogether.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 30, 2013)

ozimid said:


> This is very true and if u compare Chickens and pigs to the conditions that snake breeders keep theres in then i have to disagree...yes the snakes dont have the greatest lives but they r clean and well fed ...and as for most people that breed and cull rodents then where do all of u stand????? exactly........this is rediculous the way people r debating the jags and video...there here to stay whether u like it or not...its personal preference and people should mind there own bussiness.....Jag threads should be kept at low key or if u dont like jags then stick to the threads of the species u keep.....JMO.......and i dont presently own a jag by the way but i wont say i never will as im doing my homework instead of jumping on the band wagon.........
> Ta
> Pete.........Ps Battery Hens lack feathers ...do his snakes lack scales...his snakes look very Healthy:|
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


I think you misunderstood, I meant his snakes are kept in fantastic conditions comparatively


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## Bananapeel (Jan 30, 2013)

Can we please make clear that we (well I) don't hate jags! They are a beautiful snake. However! I hate the cruelty they are given. The breeders know they have neuro. But they still breed them not giving a hoot about the poor snakes life ahead. It is not the snake I have a problem with it is the inhumane way they are used despite having a health issue. And I give up on the vegan/vegatarian debate. I have stated I don't eat animal produce that has been farmed incorrectly as I don't believe in Cruelty to animals. If you want me to give up meat entirely I'm afraid I won't because my mum refuses to cook separate meals


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## Darlyn (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Its only in the past 70 or so years that meat has came to be a viable food product for us whether it be the price or availability, Even then our teeth limit us to cut up cooked meat. Dos'nt seem so far fetched to me



Ha ha ha .... 70 years.....the cavemen ate meat!


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Its only in the past 70 or so years that meat has came to be a viable food product for us whether it be the price or availability, Even then our teeth limit us to cut up cooked meat. Dos'nt seem so far fetched to me



You need to go back a lot longer than 70 years to decide how we evolved. Humans have invented so many things to make our life easier that we have become useless at surviving. Both our teeth and jaw muscles are considerably weaker than they used to be because we have made our food softer and easier to eat, therefore our bodies have adapted to this. Unfortunately humans have evolved to a bad place where we are almost completely disconnected from nature. Regardless of this, there is still more than enough substantial evidence to confirm that we are omnivorous and not herbivorous


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## Burnerism (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks for the carpondros info! When are as going to start seeing these come up for sale on a market level! Imo they look just as good and even better then jags!!! Come on I'm sure people will be able to make a good $ out of them for a while!


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## Red-Ink (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Thanks for the carpondros info! When are as going to start seeing these come up for sale on a market level! Imo they look just as good and even better then jags!!! Come on I'm sure people will be able to make a good $ out of them for a while!



Start it mate advertise them on here and see if there's a market for it...


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## SteveNT (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> Its only in the past 70 or so years that meat has came to be a viable food product for us whether it be the price or availability, Even then our teeth limit us to cut up cooked meat. Dos'nt seem so far fetched to me



That's just rediculous. My teeth work really well on raw meat when necessary. Our dentition going back through millions of years of ancestry is clearly designed for an OMNIVEROUS diet.

I like jags but I dont want one.


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Pfft we came from aliens any way, and we lived on the brains of flowers and elderberry wub wub bushes from the land of Zarl


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## Red-Ink (Jan 30, 2013)

TheJoyces said:


> Pfft we came from aliens any way, and we lived on the brains of flowers and elderberry wub wub bushes from the land of Zarl



A Scientologist I see....


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## RedFox (Jan 30, 2013)

You can't compare us to predators such as wolves and bears that just doesn't make sense. We used to have larger canines to eat raw meat. We then designed primaitve tools to kill and then break up meat. Then we learnt how to easily make fire. We cooked our meat. Our large canines were no longer necessary. After thounds of years, we have the teeth we have today and knives and forks. Isn't evolution amazing.


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## No-two (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Thanks for the carpondros info! When are as going to start seeing these come up for sale on a market level! Imo they look just as good and even better then jags!!! Come on I'm sure people will be able to make a good $ out of them for a while!



Stupidest post. Hybrids are just as pathetic as jags (not even 'naturally occurring' like jags if you want to get technical) and for a lot of those people tend to go hand in hand. How can you be against a jag but pro hybrid, people these days. I guess I've learned not to expect much anymore. I barely even bother with either of these topics (as I just don't care enough) but you're so against one but think its fine to hybridise with no real reason. 

All anyone ever wants is a 'pretty snake' why can't you appreciate a chondro for what it currently is? Naturally occurring they're stunning, some of their morphs are stunning without having to introduce another species.


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## richoman_3 (Jan 30, 2013)

I keep my crickets inside my netted tank ... works out for everyone!
the roaches are kept in the fridge .. evil bastards

i put my scalyfoots in the fridge before handling aswell ... so much easier when they are slower!


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## Darlyn (Jan 30, 2013)

Variety said:


> But look at how we are designed, compare us to say a wolf or a bear. Unless we are genetically made to make use of our adaptability i don't see it being that unbelievable.
> If people portrayed me purely from this thread i would come across as a jag breeding vegetarian that trys to put my hippy ways on others haha,
> 
> Saying this as im absolutely destroying a steak




It's absolutely unbelievable, hence the ha ha ha.


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Jan 30, 2013)

This thread gave me diabetes


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## Variety (Jan 30, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> so is the other guys , so what just because we wernt born with massive claws to kill prey we shouldn't eat meat , pfft nature has plenty of ways of killing prey without the need for claws or the like , whos to say we arnt ment to be jumpin on the backs of animals and strangling or choking them like snakes do , they dont even have limbs and they kill and eat their prey , so the logic behind the theory of our teeth and us not having claws or anything like bears to kill our meat is just as flawed as the other theory



Im not saying its right but yet again ill argue for it just because i can't see it being unbelievable, The only reason i can see us being designed meat eaters is if infact we are supposed to adapt like you suggested. If our biological path has lead us to tools and utensils then so be it but being a naked human out in the forest i can see us living on greens and coexisting with other creatures, sure we COULD eat them but that probably wouldnt occur prior to hundreds of years of self indulging and learning how good meat is.


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## The_Geeza (Jan 30, 2013)

So u make your own co2.... It's not humane but its the best the RSPCA will allow at the moment.... Labs r still trying to come up with something better


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## Burnerism (Jan 30, 2013)

Further more who is anyone to tell someone what they should and shouldn't like. It's called personal preference for a reason. And since you appreaciate a naturally occuring chondro why take it (or any snake) out of its natural environment and keep it in a enclosure?


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## The_Geeza (Jan 30, 2013)

TheJoyces said:


> So putting something to sleep, isn't humane? Maybe you and I have different definitions of "humane". Not entirely surprising given your current stance on current subject at matter. When I have something a lot more humane then I will be definitely looking into it. However I feel putting something to sleep to be a better way than feeding live or freezing live. Once again my opinion doesn't make me right, doesn't make me wrong. It's just my own doing.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


i also use co2 and I don't like it but its the best available at the mo....it's not putting to sleep its suffocation but if that's what the RSPCA says we can do then till sumat else comes up I suppose we continue....


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## longqi (Jan 30, 2013)

The thing most people never say about carpondros is that as you they may look ok to some people
but as adults they look pretty bad so far
colour change all chondros go through with generally positive results
comes out really bad in adult carpondros


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## Hamalicious (Jan 30, 2013)

Pretty sure Chondros are all bred in captivity unless you have the appropriate license, which is only given to zoos and scientists ect...


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## RedFox (Jan 30, 2013)

Burnerism said:


> Further more who is anyone to tell someone what they should and shouldn't like. It's called personal preference for a reason. And since you appreaciate a naturally occuring chondro why take it (or any snake) out of its natural environment and keep it in a enclosure?



Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is just confusing when jags are bad but strange hybrids are fine. But then you were never going to convince me as I don't even like the thought of crossing localities let alone species.


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## Burnerism (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes i do bananpeel i was making an ironic point to previous comments. As far as jags bad condros good i never sait it so black and white and I've explained myself a couple of times I don't wish to do it again. Please read over my previous posts for clarification. I think I'm about done with this thread lol


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## Monitor_Keeper (Jan 30, 2013)

Ahh APS and its funny jag debates <3


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## ronhalling (Jan 30, 2013)

OMG, WTH, ***, ??????????????????????????? i put up a thread to show how beautiful some of the JAGS are in the U.S and to bring to the fore the deplorable conditions alot of the oversea's breeders are keeping their reps in, i later included the Nuero problems which i was errant in mentioning at the start and went off for a poppy nap, imagine my surprise when i came back to the forum and found 10 pages of mostly diatribe ranging from Jags, morphs, religion, anthropology, zoology, veganism, vegeism, a debate about omnivorous V carnivorous and the ever present "bag the learner or the kid" as well as bag everyone in general. Don't think i will bother posting any more high emotion threads after this or asking too many more questions, think i might go back to lurking.....................................................................................Ron


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## Wally (Jan 30, 2013)

ronhalling said:


> OMG, WTH, ***, ??????????????????????????? i put up a thread to show how beautiful some of the JAGS are in the U.S and to bring to the fore the deplorable conditions alot of the oversea's breeders are keeping their reps in, i later included the Nuero problems which i was errant in mentioning at the start and went off for a poppy nap, imagine my surprise when i came back to the forum and found 10 pages of mostly diatribe ranging from Jags, morphs, religion, anthropology, zoology, veganism, vegeism, a debate about omnivorous V carnivorous and the ever present "bag the learner or the kid" as well as bag everyone in general. Don't think i will bother posting any more high emotion threads after this or asking too many more questions, think i might go back to lurking.....................................................................................Ron



Ten pages of newbies gossiping about nothing really. Lurk if you must.


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## thomasssss (Jan 30, 2013)

so a quick summary of what we've achieved so far , we instantly picked on the tub sizes ( which im not arguing with ) then we turned to twitchy jags as was always going to be the out come ,then began comparing it to albinos and their problems and calling on animal welfare then it turned to carphondros ( or however the things spelt ) then in typical aps fashion we began to swerve right off topic 

the discussion turned to how our meat produce is farmed and our teeth and whether or not we should be eating meat ( gotta love that one ) then we got into the gassing of our rats for a lil bit and a few personal attacks where made before people started saying good night to one another 

so all in all , been a pretty interesting thread , hope the op got what he wanted  lesson learned huh dont mention jag in the thread tittle


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## RedFox (Jan 30, 2013)

You've pretty much summed it up Thomassss. Where are the mods tonight? They would have had fun with this one.


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## Wally (Jan 30, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> I just thought gossip was a bit gentle of a word wouldn't you say?



Yeah good luck to ya Bananapeel. I know ya mean well with your enthusiasm.


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## The_Geeza (Jan 30, 2013)

i think regarding JAG over the last week they just let this run it course....they prob having a chit chat to what there next step is..........got to be honest im feeling for them as ive been in contact on the odd occasion with them and there job is deff not easy


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## Red-Ink (Jan 30, 2013)

RedFox said:


> You've pretty much summed it up Thomassss. Where are the mods tonight? They would have had fun with this one.



The mods are around... I just saw a thread disappear with ninja like precision and that thread didn't even make me want to play single player russian roulette like this one does. Also I'm certain this thread made baby jebus and kittens cry...


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## hnn17 (Jan 30, 2013)

It's a no from me.


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## Smithers (Jan 30, 2013)

You know you want one lol.

View attachment 279830
View attachment 279831


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## J-A-X (Jan 30, 2013)

176 posts and you were all doing so well ! 

I think a few should go to bed and sleep off what ever has got them all knotted up......... i've been watching this all day just to see where it went..... and i was surprised that although a lot went off topic you were all pretty well behaved for the most part...... 

you've all now let off steam so i suggest you call it a night, Otherwise i will close the thread and delete it ! 


PS just because you cant see us 'online' doesnt mean we arent around.


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## J-A-X (Jan 30, 2013)

i had a few facepalm moments and waited for it to derail....... it got wobbly.........


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## longqi (Jan 30, 2013)

If anyone ever tried to deliberately breed human children with incurable neurological problems of any type
they would be hung drawn and quartered

But jags are only snakes??
Who cares??


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## Jay84 (Jan 30, 2013)

I love mine......


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## longqi (Jan 30, 2013)

absolutely stunning


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

Stand by what I said before, beautiful snake  and glad you love yours


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## J-A-X (Jan 30, 2013)

TheJoyces said:


> OMG Just like Santa.... Do you see us when we're sleeping too?



Yes! I sleep with one eye open


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## TheJoyces (Jan 30, 2013)

JaxRtfm said:


> Yes! I sleep with one eye open



That being the case, you'd eat far less spiders in your sleep than me  also since you are Santa I would like a word with you over last years presents!?


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## J-A-X (Jan 30, 2013)

You probably got what you deserved !

Now off to bed you lot or this years present will be far worse !


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## ZackBeaven (Jan 30, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> +1 snakes don't need messing up to look beautiful. I find it very exciting when things like paradox albinos pop up and pied childrenis etc as they are naturally occurring and a miracle of nature. I love that the hobby is naturally developing and we are able to keep albino spotteds because nature made it so. Not because of some sick people who can't appreciate what is offered to us.


Are you seriouse a jag is exactly as natural as an albino or piebald python and are both %100 around because 1 luckily poped up out of nowhere and were inbred and inbred and inbred, ok so I am a fan of both and will probably own 1 of them but that's not the point at hand. Oh and the bit I have read so far of this thread no one has brought the lucistic(bad spelling) gene of the jag which seems to be fatal so far


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## Vixen (Jan 31, 2013)

ZackBeaven said:


> Are you seriouse a jag is exactly as natural as an albino or piebald python and are both %100 around because 1 luckily poped up out of nowhere and were inbred and inbred and inbred, ok so I am a fan of both and will probably own 1 of them but that's not the point at hand. Oh and the bit I have read so far of this thread no one has brought the lucistic(bad spelling) gene of the jag which seems to be fatal so far



There is so many things just plain wrong with what you just wrote, I won't even begin to mention it here.


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## chilli-mudcrab (Jan 31, 2013)

Jag debates.. keeping APS interesting, go people


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## ronhalling (Jan 31, 2013)

Hey Jax, i think that every subject that can be beaten up has been beaten up in this thread, was not the intention of this humble noob so if now is a good time to delete it go for your life, you can even say i requested it coz i have a feeling it is going to be resurected in the morning with a vengence.......................................................Ron


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## ronhalling (Jan 31, 2013)

wow how inapropriate on a public forum with juniors reading it, i hope the thread is binned now...................Ron


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## Stuart (Jan 31, 2013)

And since this thread has degenrated into a shambles of insulting others opinions and complete waste of internetz it has been closed.

If you have nothing nice to say or nothing to contribute, please keep it to yourself.


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