# Carbon Tax...What do you think???



## fugawi (Jun 23, 2011)

I can't understand how the government still is pushing this when almost all Australia is saying clearly "NO".

Please play nicely.


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## jack (Jun 23, 2011)

not all of us say no.


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## fugawi (Jun 23, 2011)

So why do you think it will be good? Serious question.


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## murrayanddig (Jun 23, 2011)

most of the crew i talk with say yes. it's the right thing to do and by most accounts he best way to do it.


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## wokka (Jun 23, 2011)

There needs to be a redistribution of costs so that the polluters pay the real cost which will in turn encourage more sensitive use of energy. At the moment the polluters are getting a free ride by not paying the true cost for the carbon they produce.


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## fugawi (Jun 23, 2011)

This sounds wonderful but won't the polluters just put the tax in their costs and raise their prices? If so, then they don't pay....WE do.


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## beeman (Jun 23, 2011)

This new tax will not do a single thing to ease the so called climate change
problem, What it will do is fatten the governments balance sheet and drive more manufacturing off shore and cost jobs in the Australian work force.

I have a close friend that has began to make arrangements to set up his manufacturing arm of business in China, Why because is going to be a lot cheaper, pure economics nothing more!


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## wokka (Jun 23, 2011)

Generally i would say that the polluters are charging as much as they can . They are driven by profit not ethics! When the polluters put their prices up it makes ethical production more competitive. We are already paying the cost of the polluter but it is not obvious. Fly over Musselbrook and look at the moonscape below.Creeks are turning toxic as the mines produce acid water. The wire on my farm fences rusts out 10 times quicker than before I was near the mines.


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## fugawi (Jun 23, 2011)

Tougher laws on pollution is a better way, not a tax.


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## wokka (Jun 23, 2011)

beeman said:


> This new tax will not do a single thing to ease the so called climate change
> problem, What it will do is fatten the governments balance sheet and drive more manufacturing off shore and cost jobs in the Australian work force.
> 
> I have a close friend that has began to make arrangements to set up his business in China, Why because is going to be a lot cheaper, pure economics nothing more!


Perhaps the Government should consider import duty on unethical production. If you are after the cheapest production then offsure is the way to go, Countries which have minimal OH&S, child labour and minimal environmental control will have cheaper (in terms of dollars) costs.



fugawi said:


> Tougher laws on pollution is a better way, not a tax.


To enforce the laws you need a fine or tax.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 23, 2011)

Unless the big polluters like China make real changes, our carbon tax will do nothing but drive up the cost of living and drive manafacturing offshore.


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## shea92 (Jun 23, 2011)

i am all for carbon tax, it is inevitable and a lot of other countries(mostly european countries) already have a carbon scheme inplace.
also, if you listen to the ray hadley and such, do not believe him. he isnt an expert in the feild, his show is purely opinionated. he claims we don't need a carbon tax because we only emit 1.5% of the worlds carbon, however that 1.5% is still 30 times the amount of carbon emitted for emission to be sustainable. he also rasies points about china being the worst emission, emitting 30% of the worlds carbon annually, however, in comparison australia uses 31GW of electrity every year and there is no going forward for australia to turn green with the kyoto protocal turned down, the emissons trading scheme turned down and now the carbon tax under scrutiny, when china last year alone generated 28GW of carbon neutral and renewable energy throght geothermal, biofuels, wind and hydro turbines and with a further 78GW to be renweable energy to be available by the end of 2011.
futhermore, a carbon is a price on carbon, right? this means people will be more conscience about how much power they are useing and where their power is coming from, this will lead to a reduction in carbon emissions because people will not be happy if their bills goes up so they will turn their lights of or use more efficent or sustainable methods.
moreover, the top 10% of income earners in australia with a salary over $150,000 pay 31% of tax, with this point and the fact that the revenue rasied from this will be going back into the community through health, construction such as road and also into the pockets of australians. i can honestly see why the carbon tax will be bad!

i was only young when the GST was introduced but am i the only one here having deja vu? i only see people panicing because they have to pay more money for something they cannot see. With that tony abbott is saying it is the end of the world, that julia gillard is (quote) "dumb" and going to send australians broke and that he is against it and he won't implement a carbon tax. haha and the irony being that in an interveiw in 2008 before he was elected leader of the liberal party he said that australia is heading towards a carbon tax and it will benefit not only the environment but australians also.

It is just something new and australians do not like change, we will get use to it eventually.


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## jacorin (Jun 23, 2011)

i dont know if the carbon tax will work or not,but what i do know,is that i will become unemployed if its brought in. the company i work for has stated that if the tax comes in,it will close all of their businesses in Oz and go overseas.
if thats the purpose of the tax,then great,it will do wot they want from it.if its not,then its going to hurt ppl like me more than it will help anyone else


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## MathewB (Jun 23, 2011)

Rubbish......


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## Darlyn (Jun 23, 2011)

fugawi said:


> I can't understand how the government still is pushing this when almost all Australia is saying clearly "NO".
> 
> Please play nicely.


 
I always find it amusing when someone believes they know what the rest of the country feels about the topic.
Politicians do it constantly and are very annoying with it.

I feel that many other countries are doing it (including NZ) to no huge economic disruptions.
We need to do something and unless a price is put on it (as with most things) nothing will be done.
Australia has an opportunity to harness many energies and and lead the world in R & D in this area.
Without a price on carbon there is no incentive to do so.


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## jacorin (Jun 23, 2011)

well matt,wen the company shuts its doors and im out of work, u better come down here and look after my family...u better get urself a good job to it as well mate.....u got no idea


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## petesmith81 (Jun 23, 2011)

Oh evey other country is doing so it must be good.... Manufacturing is already on its knees in Australia competing agaisnt cheaper imports this carbon tax will finish it along with our enconomy

Sent from my T8697 using Board Express


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## Mayo (Jun 23, 2011)

I do believe that we need to do something and make major changes but I don't believe in any way that the carbon tax is going to help. There are many other options that should be looked into first, and if a carbon tax was required to pay for something that will really help the environment then I would be happier to pay. As has been said all it will do is force prices up and we will be paying for more bureaucrats to sit in there ivory towers twiddling there thumbs.


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## wokka (Jun 23, 2011)

My concern is the inefficency of government beaurocacy. If say 100 million was taken from the dirty polluters and the whole 100m went to the cleaner producers then that would be great and give incentives to clean up our act, but in reality it is likely a lot of the tax and consequent effect may be lost along the way.


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## Mayo (Jun 23, 2011)

Poll: Australian “Carbon Tax” Wildly Unpopular

There are some numbers there from what they say are recent polls
60% against the carbon tax.
28% for the tax
12% undecided

With 75% people polled believing we will be worse off with little to no benefit.


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## Ships (Jun 23, 2011)

Just another big GST, it will effect everything.


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## MathewB (Jun 23, 2011)

jacorin said:


> u got no idea


 
What makes you say that?


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## Renenet (Jun 23, 2011)

Mayo said:


> Poll: Australian “Carbon Tax” Wildly Unpopular


 
Hmm. That poll was conducted by Galaxy for News Limited. I don't know what questions people were asked or how the poll was conducted so I can't comment further. 

As for that article - I always enjoy a dose of emotive propaganda before bed. Helps me sleep. 



Darlyn said:


> I always find it amusing when someone believes they know what the rest of the country feels about the topic. Politicians do it constantly and are very annoying with it.



Hear, hear. It's so infuriating when the politicians presume to speak for me.


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## Wookie (Jun 23, 2011)

Its rubbish. I thought it was more of a statement to try get China/others to follow suit (not that they will). We only cause something like 2% of global greenhouse gas emissions so in the scheme of things, the difference in emissions as a result of this tax will be negligible. I fail to see the point.


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## Naga_Kanya (Jun 23, 2011)

I think it's sad that Australians are quibbling over a couple of bucks, when other countries are making a proper effort. Britain's pledged a 50% emissions reduction. I'm ashamed for Australia.


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## Darlyn (Jun 23, 2011)

Naga_Kanya said:


> I think it's sad that Australians are quibbling over a couple of bucks, when other countries are making a proper effort. Britain's pledged a 50% emissions reduction. I'm ashamed for Australia.


 

I agree, I think it's sad that people revert to the "Woe is me syndrome" intead of looking at the bigger
picture.
It also get's me that people are quite prepared to hang it but don't come back with a better solution or option


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## Reptile City (Jun 24, 2011)

It’s just a government TAX GRAB to pay off the extra 10 billion dollar black hole deficit.
It will not change a thing except make it look like the Labour government has done a good job at paying off the deficit for the next election in 3 years.
That’s why Labour says it will change the Carbon TAX to an Emissions Trading Scheme in 3 years. It’s so they can look like they are doing something for the environment. I love nature & too want to keep the planet healthy but this is just another Labour government SCAM.
We will all have to adjust to inflation because of this so called carbon tax.
Some jobs will go overseas & we are being fooled by the burecratic BULL, once again!
Tell me how it will help the environment when you tax the coal company’s & others then give them back huge compensation & then give all the welfare & elderly more money. When the company has more cost to the production they charge more so the shareholders keep getting there profits. The end user you at home, then gets reimbursed by the government. So do you really need to look elsewhere for a cheaper product? Say Electricity? They also own most of the greener electricity generation too! They will just bump up the green energy prices as well. There is still 50 years of cheap coal to dig up!
They don’t care about the environment when they have hungry shareholders to please. 
Seriously who is fooled by their carbon tax? Don’t just listen to a government that needs the carbon Tax to rake in the 10 billion dollar short fall of the deficit they have realized. They will tell you anything so they can get re-elected in 3 years’ time.
Look at what the non-government scientist are saying! They are saying this is a natural occurrence that has happened for billions of years & our measly CO2 levels make no difference to what volcanos, earth quakes & wild fires have done since time & not since religious time….. loll
Even though I didn’t vote Labour party I am not going by what the Liberals are saying either but real non bias scientist!
I did vote for Rudd but not Gillard, she/It has to go & the sooner the better!
I have taken a great interest in this topic & have read a lot over the last 6 months I feel I am safe in saying I’m not rejecting a carbon tax for any reason apart from a carbon tax is only good for the government. We the commoners will lose out & for no gain to our environment.


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## Darlyn (Jun 24, 2011)

Commoners?


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## Reptile City (Jun 24, 2011)

Commoners, translation = Not wealthy, powerfull, dominant or politician. 

If you want to learn what the big companys are about in the world then down load the zeitgeist movies. Some of it is a bit far feched but a lot of it is the real deal. (www. zeitgeistmovie .com)


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## wokka (Jun 24, 2011)

Reptile City said:


> It’s just a government TAX GRAB to pay off the extra 10 billion dollar black hole deficit.
> I’m not rejecting a carbon tax for any reason apart from a carbon tax is only good for the government. We the commoners will lose out & for no gain to our environment.


 
Just what do the government do with all these ill gotten gains? They spend it on our country to fulfill the needs of the country. Ideally it is paid to the more sensitive production sector to make them more competative against the heavier polluters. I must say it seems rediculous to tax the polluters and then susidise their product so they can continue to pollute, but that is part of the inefficency of beaurocracy!

If there is a 10 billion black hole then it needs to be filled by us, the people of Australia. The government on our behalf can either spend less or increase income but that is a different issue to a carbon tax.
It is hard to argue either way using information which has been media washed. Until the detail is released we are only barking at shadows but I support the principle of putting the real cost on polluters and encouraging clean energy.


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## Recharge (Jun 24, 2011)

Mayo said:


> Poll: Australian “Carbon Tax” Wildly Unpopular
> 
> There are some numbers there from what they say are recent polls
> 60% against the carbon tax.
> ...


 
you might want to check the poll sample size, probably under 1000 people, galaxy isn't too hot on "actual" polling 
they did one of gay marriage, and somehow the poll was only done in mainly religious areas


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## Flaviruthless (Jun 24, 2011)

Reptile City said:


> Look at what the non-government scientist are saying! They are saying this is a natural occurrence that has happened for billions of years & our measly CO2 levels make no difference to what volcanos, earth quakes & wild fires have done since time & not since religious time….. loll
> Even though I didn’t vote Labour party I am not going by what the Liberals are saying either but real non bias scientist!



Which scientists? Can you please point me in the direction of some evidence? I could not disagree with you more strongly. If it's not being politicised, religious zealots get involved and the end result is people being confused and opinionated by a topic that should be a priority at the moment. There is no debate. It is real. 

University World News - AUSTRALIA: Scientists face more death threats


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

Theoretically a carbon tax sounds great. Put a tax on polluting companies, the company then retools for cleaner emissions, the greens party is happy, Gillard gets their votes.
Now lets look at the REALITY.
Put a carbon tax on polluting companies, I can think of 4 directions from here....1; The company retools at great cost. Don't think so.
2; The company absorbs the tax and the shareholders take a drop in profits.....AAAHHHhhhhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha.....yeah right!
3; The company streamlines its workforce to cover the losses......good probability.
4; The company simply raises its prices to cover the tax......another good probability.
Unfortunately companies don't realistically pay taxes, they just pass the taxes on to the purchaser, who passes it on through to the end user....US. The problem is that if they become uncompetitive in the market, we will import more. As they sell less, then jobs will be lost. Then the company eventually goes bust and more jobs are lost. meanwhile prices of raw materials will rise and that will flow down to us paying more.
The question is will companies retool or just raise prices and streamline? My money is on streamlining and rising prices because of the restrictive costs of retooling for no real advantage.
As far as the government using the tax money for greener things......AAAAHhahahahahahahahahaha......It will simply go into the coffers with everything else and almost nothing green will come from it.

Seroiusly, I don't see why people are arguing about all the polls. Every single poll, bar none, has shown somewhere between 60-80% of people against the tax. Whether it is a news poll or a government poll, they all have most of Aus against the tax. Even Gillards personal polls show this with her popularity at an all time low. She said before the election that it would not be brought up.


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## junglepython2 (Jun 24, 2011)

The only positive thing about this tax is it will ensure labour will be in opposition for at least 10years.


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

Hey jungle....I could only find a like button....still can't find a love it button.


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## The Devil (Jun 24, 2011)

Yes, it is just another tax. The polluters will just add the tax to their cost and it will be the consumer who will pay the price.

Some of the tax collected will be given back to some of the population as compensation BUT it will ONLY be SOME of the tax collected.

How else does the government expect the budget to be in surplus in a couple of years time.
The $10 billion budget black hole mentioned is nothing. I'm more concerned at what will have to be sold to repay the almost $240,000,000,000.00 that has been borrowed and a lot wasted by this government. Now that's not a bad debt to rack up in less than 4 years.

On the subject of budget black holes and budget surpluses, has a federal labor government ever delivered a balanced budget. If so, when ???????
Wayne Swan when asked this question suggested that it would have been in the early 80's, he then smashed a glass.
I'm not so sure if the Hawk government ever delivered a balanced budget.

A few weeks ago I emailed the federal labor party and asked the question but surprise, surprise I've yet to get an answer.



junglepython2 said:


> The only positive thing about this tax is it will ensure labour will be in opposition for at least 10years.



Sorry mate, you are wrong.....Graham Richardson on radio the other day reckoned that this tax would be the death of labor for the next GENERATION.

Besides to qualify as an opposition party a minimum number of seats have to be won, I wonder if they can manage to win the required number.


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

I wonder if this will also kill off the Greens as a competitive Party as well?


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## moosenoose (Jun 24, 2011)

This is back-to-front, upside down world! People actually WANT a tax??? Another tax?? :lol: :lol: Isn't EVERYTHING already expensive enough? We can't compete with overseas markets/manufacturers as it is...but we're going to penalize Australian industries? What a joke!

A carbon "dioxide" tax supposedly. Isn't that what trees need to survive? Just grow more friggin' trees!! It's natures BEST fertilizer! And we're taxing it??? We're seriously getting dumber and dumber! I'm convinced of that!



fugawi said:


> I wonder if this will also kill off the Greens as a competitive Party as well?


 
I think it's helped expose the Greens as a bunch of nutjobs. They are anything but Green!


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## Wookie (Jun 24, 2011)

Rahni29 said:


> Which scientists? Can you please point me in the direction of some evidence? I could not disagree with you more strongly. If it's not being politicised, religious zealots get involved and the end result is people being confused and opinionated by a topic that should be a priority at the moment. There is no debate. It is real.
> 
> University World News - AUSTRALIA: Scientists face more death threats


 
Yes it is real but it is also being blown WAY out of proportion. It isn't one of the things we should be particularly worried about at this point in time. We should be spending every spare cent on renewable energy research and stocking up on guns because not too far into the future there is going to be major conflict over fossil fuels :lol: (joking to exaggerate my point).



fugawi said:


> I wonder if this will also kill off the Greens as a competitive Party as well?


 
Hope so, some of their policies are ridiculous. The last government who tried some of the stuff they want to implement went dead broke . All sounds well and good greens but where are you gonna pull all this money from?


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

Did anyone see the news last night with the CEOs of Woolworths, Coles, Bunnings and David Jones all saying that they will have to shed jobs if the Carbon Tax goes ahead?

What is funny is that none of these companies will be taxed directly by the Carbon Tax.


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## moosenoose (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't doubt that the climate is changing. Whether or not we're 100% responsible for that change....or even 5% responsible is completely debatable. I also agree we should be looking towards renewable energy....but we have been, for a long time.

Solar is NOT a viable option for people living in the Southern parts of Australia – it’s the biggest waste of money con-job going around! Wind power is a bit of a crock also (not to mention expensive to maintain - thus expensive to use) We're charged through the teeth for "natural gas" and it appears the only way the government can make renewable energy an option, is to make the currently cheaper, more available, existing forms of coal powered energy MORE EXPENSIVE than green energy! And that's because green energy is expensive & time consuming in its manufacture and maintenance.

We're just digging a bigger hole looking for something that isn't quite there to be discovered yet. The trouble is it'll be so deep by the time we realize that fact we'll have trouble crawling out of it to change direction - because we've killed the industries which are inadvertently helping us to find those choices at the present moment.

Haven't we just green stamped another coal-powered electrical station here in Vic?? Now that really is ironic! :lol: Why are we doing it? Because the current grid is already at capacity due to an increasing population.



fugawi said:


> Did anyone see the news last night with the CEOs of Woolworths, Coles, Bunnings and David Jones all saying that they will have to shed jobs if the Carbon Tax goes ahead?
> 
> What is funny is that none of these companies will be taxed directly by the Carbon Tax.



No but I suspect they know there will be a knock on effect, which will affect their bottom line.


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## Wookie (Jun 24, 2011)

We have the largest uranium reserves in the world..... Hmmm I think I've found a solution. Maybe I should run for PM :lol:


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

I have just had a bit of a look at which countries have introduced a federal carbon tax and which countries have rejected it. It seem that more countries have rejected it than have taken it up. I also noticed the general reason for rejecting it is that it will only eventually effect the low income earners. The main countries that have taken it up are small European countries and India. None of these countries are major primary producers like us that rely heavily on our exports of our primary produce. They are also heavily populated countries. The effect on Australia will be vastly different to the countries that have taken on a carbon tax.

Prime Minister Wookie..........Hmmmmmm......don't know, at least we will have better herp laws.

Here is Gillards exact words before the election......"There will be no carbon tax" and yet she did not mislead parliament. Hmmmmmmmmm


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## moosenoose (Jun 24, 2011)

New Zealand has it I think. Regardless of that, I still don't want it. 

Interesting some people comparing this to the introduction of the GST that was brought in by John Howard. The carbon tax is not comparable with that of the GST in my opinion, even though it was brought in on the back of a lie also. A carbon tax by principal will do nothing for the environment, but everything to fatten government coffers. This, apart from merely being yet another tax, is the thing that truly irks me.


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

Un Zud were looking into introducing it this year, I don't know if they have or not. Either way the effects will be much smaller on them.
Another thing to think about with the GST is that it was brought in to simplify the company taxes and reduce something like 27 taxes down to 1. By adding another company tax, aren't they destroying the idea of the GST by starting to build up another 27 taxes on top of the GST?


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## discomat (Jun 24, 2011)

I feel like banging my head against a brick wall here... I read a few posts in this thread and I'm worried about how many people think it's a good idea. Sorry but you people are clueless. A war against carbon/pollution must be GLOBAL! Australia's carbon footprint in 1 year is approximately equal to the carbon footprint of China and India in ONE DAY! And where do you think the large international companies will go once this tax comes in? Yep... to China and India as cost = everything. It's the stupidity of Australian voters who saw Labor get elected in the first place! I have absolutely no faith in the Australian public anymore. I'm 25 and most people my age or younger are dipshits when it comes to politics. Everyone should be forced to study some sort of politics/economics classes at school because we are creating a nation of blind voting idiots!


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## fugawi (Jun 24, 2011)

I fully understand you discomat and it seems that most aussies are also banging their heads against a wall which is why I started this thread. You have to remember that firstly Gillard claimed that she would NOT introduce a Carbon Tax during the election and secondly, Gillard was NOT voted for in the last election. The Labor Party had less votes than the Libs until she did some backroom deals with the Greens and then she still didn't have the numbers to claim victory so she did some backroom deals with the independants to achieve power. Now we are paying for those backroom deals.....

As they say....."Payback is a b#@$!"


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## Sinners121 (Jul 4, 2011)

If the carbon tax goes through Australian people might as well start moving over seas its a lot cheaper than here already.


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## wokka (Jul 4, 2011)

discomat said:


> I feel like banging my head against a brick wall here... I read a few posts in this thread and I'm worried about how many people think it's a good idea. Sorry but you people are clueless. A war against carbon/pollution must be GLOBAL! Australia's carbon footprint in 1 year is approximately equal to the carbon footprint of China and India in ONE DAY! And where do you think the large international companies will go once this tax comes in? Yep... to China and India as cost = everything. It's the stupidity of Australian voters who saw Labor get elected in the first place! I have absolutely no faith in the Australian public anymore. I'm 25 and most people my age or younger are dipshits when it comes to politics. Everyone should be forced to study some sort of politics/economics classes at school because we are creating a nation of blind voting idiots!


You could apply that arguement to lots of hard ethical and morel decisions. Australia needs to lead not follow the lowest standards. If you want to live cheap, sure go to China! I hope most Australians are here for a quality life not the cheapest one.


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## sesa-sayin (Jul 4, 2011)

Labor/Greens almost certainly will not win the next election,. They already know that, but they may well get their Carbon Tax leglislation through before that time. The Coalition would find it very hard to repeal it..word is, she has 3 more months to achieve a turn-around in the Polls...Otherwise Stephen Smithwill take over.


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## medz84 (Jul 4, 2011)

carbon tax = what? what will it actually do for the planet?

as said earlier buisnesses will lift there prices to pay for the tax,
struggling families such as my own will find it even harder to live and what will the planet get out of this tax? 

the government needs to fix other things before it worries about another tax...


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## Renenet (Jul 4, 2011)

I haven't commented on this topic yet because Labor haven't actually released any real details, which I personally think was incredibly dumb of them. I heard somewhere - I think on ABC TV, when I was only half paying attention - that they will launch the policy properly on Sunday.


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## vampstorso (Jul 4, 2011)

Smelter demands tax shield or jobs axe falls | The Australian

my home town seems to rely on the tax NOT existing.


Beyond this, I still can't make sense of it!

Gillard says money from the tax will go to helping poorer families...well perhaps those families wouldn't need the money if they weren't paying the tax, or their jobs weren't lost as result. 

Also....spending millions of dollars on "advertising" the tax...LOL advertising something we have no choice about?! 

Then saying we should all catch public transport. Well, I don't see the PM on my morning bus...


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## fugawi (Jul 5, 2011)

It seems that a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, businesses will shut or relocate overseas and the end result is that the poor will get poorer, more people will lose their homes and go bankrupt. Hmmmmmmmmmm So can someone explain to me just how Australia will benefit from this.............


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## vampstorso (Jul 5, 2011)

^ coz Gillard said so!
That makes the suggestion "it's helpful" a valid "fact", right?! 
She sure seems to think so!


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## moosenoose (Jul 5, 2011)

Australia survived the Great Depression, now it'll have to survive the Julia/Brown Great Deception. 

All it is, is to ALLOW businesses to "pay to pollute". As consumers we'll be forced to foot the bill as we don't have any other real infrastructure to turn to for a choice. Solar, particularly in the southern regions of Australia, isn't (as yet) a financially viable or practical option.

I've always said we need to clean up our act. That's a no brainer. But feeling great about changing nothing in a practical sense, other than gathering money off people in the way of taxes, and then to reimburse those who'll be charged extra simply because a large corporation has passed on those costs, is plain ridiculous!

So if you're a store packer, you'll be looked after. If you're a doctor or professional or hard working tradie - expect to cough up! THIS is Labor at its goddamn best!


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## Sinners121 (Jul 5, 2011)

its funny the poor people will get their money back but what about the middle class? we get classified as rich taxed more and then our money is taken and given to the poor. where is incentive to work? and the pensioners are not going to be able to survive with this. its just another money grab at the people who are deemed "rich"


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## FAY (Jul 5, 2011)

Julia is no less deceptive than John Howard saying 'he would never bring in the GST' but did when he got into power. Politicians ALL lie. I personally don't know how they can say these things, go the opposite and still think they are honest, decent people and above everyone else. I suppose the bait of getting into the top job in the country, if only for 5 mins and all the perks they get for the rest of their lives just seems to be too big of a carrot JMO


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## sesa-sayin (Jul 5, 2011)

LABOR is all about CONTROL< CONTROL< CONTROL> It always was, and always will be. TAX and SQUANDER


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## discomat (Jul 5, 2011)

wokka said:


> You could apply that arguement to lots of hard ethical and morel decisions. Australia needs to lead not follow the lowest standards. If you want to live cheap, sure go to China! I hope most Australians are here for a quality life not the cheapest one.



*facepalm* *** did you even read my post? I said big business organisations would simply move to China/India, they don't give two ****s about 'quality life' in Australia. Cost = everything! It has nothing to do with living cheap, it has to do with consequences and benefits. You think developing nations like China/India care if Australia leads the 'war' against global warming? NO! Furthermore like I said our carbon footprint is minimal compared to China/India. You are the perfect example of what I was referring to in my original post, please go read a book on economics or something before coming back.


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## wokka (Jul 5, 2011)

discomat said:


> *facepalm* *** did you even read my post? I said big business organisations would simply move to China/India, they don't give two ****s about 'quality life' in Australia. Cost = everything! It has nothing to do with living cheap, it has to do with consequences and benefits. You think developing nations like China/India care if Australia leads the 'war' against global warming? NO! Furthermore like I said our carbon footprint is minimal compared to China/India. You are the perfect example of what I was referring to in my original post, please go read a book on economics or something before coming back.


You sound like a nasty little 25 year old. I was reading books on economics before you were born.Let me know what you think when you have another 30 years of experience rather than a little theroretical opinions of others! Hopefully you will develop a little environmental and social conscience rather than just looking at what is best for you!


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## fugawi (Jul 5, 2011)

Wokka......I would seriously like to hear your thoughts on how this tax will help the environment and society. I just looked back on all your posts on this thread and you seem to be at least partially for the tax. I understand that all the details are not in about it yet but the price per tonne of carbon doesn't really mean much. They will never tell us where the cash cow is going anyway so from your point of view, how will we be better off.

Not flaming you, just interested in your point of view.


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## wokka (Jul 5, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Wokka......I would seriously like to hear your thoughts on how this tax will help the environment and society. I just looked back on all your posts on this thread and you seem to be at least partially for the tax. I understand that all the details are not in about it yet but the price per tonne of carbon doesn't really mean much. They will never tell us where the cash cow is going anyway so from your point of view, how will we be better off.
> 
> Not flaming you, just interested in your point of view.


The way i see it is that we spend say $1000m on power. 99.9% on coal fired and say 0.1% on renewable because on the surface coal fired is cheaper. Eventually coal will run out. We have a duty to live sustainably not just for tomorrow. The easy thing is to dig coal as quick as possible so we can all be rich now and bugger the future. Most people think with their wallet so to encourage sustainable energy we need to put the real long term cost on coal now. The extra money raised now should then be given to the users of sustainable energy to increase demand for sistainable energy. The bit I am scepticalabout is the efficency of the beaurocracy redistributing the cake.If ther is no loss to beaurocracy then the power spend should still be $1000 million but say 90% to coal and 10% to renewables. By encouraging demand for renewables R&D should increase until renewables can stand alone.At the moment we, through the government, are subsidising the effect of coal energy through the increased demands on the health system ,transport infrustructure and the destroyed environment it leaves behind. These costs often dont show up for generations.Is it fair that we benefit now at the expense of the future??


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## fugawi (Jul 5, 2011)

You see I actually understand where you are coming from and in an ideal society this would be great and I would be behind it 100%, unfortunately I am also sceptical of the Labor party's motives and know that any government with a massive, out of control debt is not going to use the revenue for anything green. The other thing that worries me is that they are putting together a compensation package for low income earners, which means they know that this tax will cost jobs and increase prices across the board. So they are happy with pushing already struggling families to the wall with a one off token payment on what is realistically a pipe dream.

A couple of isolated countries around the world doing this is completely worthless. The entire planet needs to do this at the same time or it is useless. China will never agree to do anything like this because they simply don't give a flying %#[email protected] about the environment and never will. As they are the main polluter, the carbon intake will stay pretty much the same and nothing will ever be achieved.

Closer to home, when the coal is all gone they will just look at burning something else like gas because solar and wind are still too expensive to manufacture, install and maintain. The problem is that it will hit every type of business in some way and even the manufacture of solar panels and wind generators prices will rise due to the carbon tax. Every single item we use or consume has some form of manufacturing involved and will cop the carbon tax. Add to that transport costs will also be taxed. All these businesses will either pass the tax down to the consumer, close down or move overseas.

At the end of the day I personally can see NO benefit coming to the environment or society in Australia or the world.


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## Mayo (Jul 5, 2011)

When has a government been that smart Wokka? You have to no that the monies raised will be wasted. I guess that around 65-70% will be handed back out to the worst polluters. 20-25% will be taken to pay for the costs of enforcing the new tax, and the bureaucrats, and the remainder will go into the government coffers and spent on anything other than the environment. If you think they will put much if anything into actually saving the environment I think you have been mislead. The real test will be when they release the details about the new tax. 

I do however agree that we need to invest far more money and research into renewable energy sources as well as dare I say it Nuclear power as far more viable and long term, and enviro friendly power sources. With the best guesstimates thus far being we have less that 150yrs of coal/petroleum based fuels left.Most of the government planning only seems to be looking to the end of there governing term rather than 50-100-500yrs down the track.


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## wokka (Jul 5, 2011)

Certainly the "me" society who live for the day, is of concern. Is it just a race to the bottom? Somewhere in the world they rape small children. Should we join them? or maybe turn a blind eye to inhumane slaughter of animals because if we dont supply someone else will. Should we try to live ethically and sustainably? or join others who may not.
As an example of incurring cost for the future to pay:
I am project managing a subdivision in the Hunter Valley on land which was previously underground mined for coal some 100 years ago. The cost today of remediating the effect of mining from 100 years ago, will be born by those who buy that developed land today. The consequences of digging bloody great holes for the sake of short term buck needs to be considered into the future.


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## SYNeR (Jul 5, 2011)

wokka said:


> You sound like a nasty little 25 year old. I was reading books on economics before you were born.Let me know what you think when you have another 30 years of experience rather than a little theroretical opinions of others! Hopefully you will develop a little environmental and social conscience rather than just looking at what is best for you!



That's a rather ageist / ad-hominem attack.


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## wokka (Jul 5, 2011)

discomat said:


> * You are the perfect example of what I was referring to in my original post, please go read a book on economics or something before coming back.


The trouble with most books on economics is that they fail to account for non economic consequences.There is more to consider than merely the financial consequences We need at least a tripple bottom line and I am sure there are other considerations besides environmental and social consequences.



SYNeR said:


> That's a rather ageist / ad-hominem attack.


Perhaps, although my point is that theoretical economics often fails to account for the social and environmental consequences and that this is something which comes from experience.


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## moosenoose (Jul 6, 2011)

Redistributing the "cake" (and it'll be a bloody big cake at that - of our money btw) is already drying up for most people...before its even started. So to say it'll help with renewable energy is certainly a massive stretch. The government doesn't want to keep handing money back to us...or saving the world...they just want the cash, as always. Its got nothing to do with your carbon footprint, but everything in filling their coffers. I honestly believe we're becoming more stupid and naive as time goes by, and this pay-to-pollute deception is the icing on this particular cake.

Already NSW has stopped feed-in tariffs for solar power customers - why would the government do that? The solar rebate scheme, soon to become the solar credits scheme actually EXPIRES in 2015-16. Why would they do that?

The head of Australia's Climate Change Institute Tim Flannery has stated that we're staring down the barrel of a 700-1000yr fix if the entire world stopped Carbon emissions today. Yet here we have the Federal government knocking the most minute customer incentives like feed-in tariffs and solar credit schemes on the head in 4yrs. Great incentives for renewable energy :lol: :lol:


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## jack (Jul 6, 2011)

discomat said:


> please go read a book on economics or something before coming back.



let me guess, you are right on top of the GDP concept?


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jul 6, 2011)

> at least a tripple bottom line and I am sure there are other considerations besides environmental and social consequences.



irrelevant, Tripple Bottom Lines are old fashioned and out of date, there's a few other good consideration operations out there though, please keep posting Wokka and Jack.


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## Ramsayi (Jul 6, 2011)

We reduce our need for coal as a direct result of the tax but said coal will still be mined,exported and burned.Net benefit to the environment = zero


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## S&M Morelia (Jul 6, 2011)

no matter how much you reduce your carbon footprint, how much less coal is burned etc, 1 Volcanic Erruption will spew out enough carbon products into the air to cancel all your hard work of saving the environment for the last 50+ years.....


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## Snakeluvver2 (Jul 6, 2011)

That isn't really part of the equation though...


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## S&M Morelia (Jul 6, 2011)

So if the Carbon tax is put in place to reduce carbon pollution and the government is using "Global Warming" as an excuse then to me its just a money grab.
If "Global Warming" is in fact a real threat then nothing we do will stop it IMO.


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## lizardmech (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't know why everyone is complaining about China, their output is low when you consider the population and the amount of production developed countries have outsourced there. They are also spending huge amounts on renewable energy and developing related technology.

As for the carbon tax, I don't mind the government investing money in renewable energy even if it's not cost effective in the short term, however I'm not sure I would trust putting either the ALP or the coalition in charge of anything.

The state of the current political parties is more worrying than the carbon tax itself.


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## jack (Jul 6, 2011)

S&M Morelia said:


> no matter how much you reduce your carbon footprint, how much less coal is burned etc, 1 Volcanic Erruption will spew out enough carbon products into the air to cancel all your hard work of saving the environment for the last 50+ years.....



an annoying and insidious urban myth. 

volcanoes usually put out just over 100 million tonnes, we put out nearly 30 BILLION tonnes of carbon dioxide


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## fugawi (Jul 6, 2011)

Since CO2 is the main culpret, wouldn't planting billions of trees and stopping the wholesale destruction of the remaining rainforests be a better idea than paying our government billions of dollars. I don't think any of that money will go towards tree planting.


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## wokka (Jul 6, 2011)

What do you think the money will go towards?


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## lizardmech (Jul 6, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Since CO2 is the main culpret, wouldn't planting billions of trees and stopping the wholesale destruction of the remaining rainforests be a better idea than paying our government billions of dollars. I don't think any of that money will go towards tree planting.


 It would help but you will still have to deal with fossil fuels running out. Scrambling to develop new energy sources after fossil fuels become scarce would be a disaster. It makes more sense to develop the technology while the world economy is still functional.

Although the government doesn't seem very competent so they will probably just waste money and then have to buy renewable energy technology from overseas.


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## fugawi (Jul 6, 2011)

The general coffers, as all taxes do. The main bulk to help with labors massive debts.

All this research into renewable energy has been going on for over 50yrs. Everything from solar, wind, tidal, geothermic, cold fusion etc, we are already researching these things, the question is "How will paying the government billions of dollars change this?".


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## wokka (Jul 6, 2011)

I was dissappointed in the recent splurge for solar power in nsw. I think it should only apply to systems with say 50% of Australian componantry rather than just importing all the hardware from overseas.We need incentive to develop renewable energy industries here for the long term. This will not only create jobs but also keep the profit here. We dont need another foreign owned mining industry which sends profits overseas at the expense of local Australian!


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## fugawi (Jul 6, 2011)

Anyone manufacturing componentry for solar systems will just be hit directly or indirectly with the carbon tax anyway. A tax on industry will just force them offshore. A tax will not fix the problem, astronomical fines, tightening of laws and closing businesses that pollute will force them into cleaning up their act. An OFFSET tax will just offset the cost down to us, the consumer.


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## The Devil (Jul 6, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> We reduce our need for coal as a direct result of the tax but said coal will still be mined,exported and burned.Net benefit to the environment = zero



How RIGHT you are, sounds a bit like the mining and exporting of uranium but no way will we have a nuclear power stations.
Maybe, just maybe the people in charge haven't heard of the word hypocrite



wokka said:


> What do you think the money will go towards?



Well the Federal Gov is still borrowing $100 million each and EVERY week to finance the current budget deficit and somehow they reckon that the budget will be balanced by June 2013.
The only way there is ANY chance of that happening is for a large portion of the Carbon Tax to go into general revenue and also don't forget the new mining tax.

Can anyone tell me what percentage of the atmosphere is made up of carbon dioxide and what the percentage was say 100 years ago????


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## moosenoose (Jul 6, 2011)

lizardmech said:


> I don't mind the government investing money in renewable energy even if it's not cost effective in the short term, however I'm not sure I would trust putting either the ALP or the coalition in charge of anything.
> 
> The state of the current political parties is more worrying than the carbon tax itself.



At least you're being realistic about how cost effective it'll be. But fence sitting is another thing.

I was watching Kevin11 tonight speaking on the news, and finally came to the realization that he was streaks ahead of the red peril! Kevin Rudd is undoubtably a smart guy, and I've got respect for him. Gillard and Brown on the other hand are destructive, moronic and self-centered. They can't possibly have the countries best interests at heart over their own self opinionated agendas! Get them out before we all go down the drain!



fugawi said:


> The general coffers, as all taxes do. The main bulk to help with labors massive debts.
> 
> All this research into renewable energy has been going on for over 50yrs. Everything from solar, wind, tidal, geothermic, cold fusion etc, we are already researching these things, the question is "How will paying the government billions of dollars change this?".



Good points!

The search into renewable energy has been happening for decades. We all know that's where we need to head. But governments being governments have realized there's a cash-cow out there, and an easy intimidated public. 

The scenario: let's yell that the sky is falling and get people to empty out their wallets to save it! Pay more, feel better. No change can occur mOre than it already is. Dr Who doesn't exsist yet I'm afraid Julia!


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## grimbeny (Jul 6, 2011)

I hope the carbon tax is passed on in full to consumers because, they are the big polluters.


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## moosenoose (Jul 6, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> I hope the carbon tax is passed on in full to consumers because, they are the big polluters.


 
:lol: Hahaha biggest and best troll comment of the thread! 

The biggest problem is the population. Who's going to ultimately judge who's having kids, and who isn't. It's a catch 22. An aging population doesn't work. Unless of course we're willing to bring in slaves from 3rd world countries :lol: ..... Errrr.... Hang on, if we let Gillard and Brown go about their merry way perhaps we'll be about to outsource some of our kids to thd Arabs! Come on people, breed up!


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## Renenet (Jul 6, 2011)

The Devil said:


> Can anyone tell me what percentage of the atmosphere is made up of carbon dioxide and what the percentage was say 100 years ago????



In 1900 it was about 300 parts per million (ppm). As of 2009 it's 386 ppm. Methane, which is a much more potent greenhouse gas, is also on the increase. See http://www.csiro.au/files/files/pvfo.pdf or simply Google it.

I accept the science of climate change. I'm frustrated at the inaction, the talkfests and the arguing. Nonetheless, I have questions about the carbon tax. I think that any effective program will need to include some kind of assistance for workers in affected industries. It also needs to be legally mandated that a certain percentage of the tax will be spent on actual greenhouse gas reduction. And for heaven's sake, don't let any technological developments that we achieve here go overseas. Support it, thereby creating jobs to replace the old ones.

To pick up on a few of the points raised in this thread: (1) I totally agree it's illogical to introduce a carbon tax but continue to mine coal and export it to the rest of the world. (2) The human population is, quite literally, a huge problem and there's no easy solution for that, at least nothing that's palatable. (3) The debate has been hijacked by politicians - never a good thing.

I also think that renewables can only take us so far. The technology just isn't good enough yet to give everyone on the planet clean energy. We can hope that one day it will be. In the meantime we need to use energy more efficiently. For example, I hate to think how much energy is wasted in the average Australian CBD after hours because lights and office appliances have been left on.

It's getting late so I'll stop here. I'll keep an eye on this thread, it's definitely interesting.


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## ianinoz (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm an engineer with many years working to improve gas fired furnaces.

There's a lot of misinformation and scare mungering going on, mostly by the Libs and miners and the high intensity c producers (iron steel cement mgo aluminium al2o3 and power producers).
Most of it is just that - scare mungering.

There are lots of things these industries can do to reduce their c emissions, ie use recouperation to reduce the mass of air used to run their burners - very wasteful to use air at or near room temperature to provide o2 to burn their fuel (cold air has to heated up too this energy is wasted where if they use preheated combustion air or even go to injecting preheated pure o2 rather than air (mostly N2) big reductions in c emitted are easily had with the same heating effect for their given process).
CO2 can be recovered and liquified and sold as a byproduct or used to produce graphite which is valuable and used in many processes and products.
CO2 can also be converted to CO which is a fuel and is useful in many processes.

Sorry but from a engineering standpoint most of issue cited by those who are complaigning are really non-issues and a lot of them are exaggerated for the shock value (most of the community are not knowledgeable about this and are easily juped by the scaremungerers, and I'm yet here a single poly in the fed or any state gov indicate they have the foggiest clue about this issue, they all parrot their chose "experts" most of whom on the against this stde are not experts at all, just very vocal lobbyists).

Sure retro fitting process improvements like regen units, CO2 scrubbers, cryro CO2 plants, and making changes to these processes will cost some money, this is a one off cost though and the energy savings for these companies is going to large and on going for the life of these plants and will create even more jobs (GOOD IMO).

I could say a lot more but that will do for now.


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## moosenoose (Jul 7, 2011)

Well I work with a whole bunch of engineers who concentrate on renewable and environmentally friendly power platforms, and it doesn't take away from the fact that this entire carbon tax issue is one great big money grab! It's an extra tax that will achieve nothing in the big picture of things. You might as well walk out to the footpath, grab all your loose change and toss it out on the street. Or better still mail it to the government. It'll help for more of their jet travel expenses.

Actually, I think the terminology is a "gaggle of engineers", or a "rambling of engineers".... or something :lol:


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## Octane (Jul 7, 2011)

I believe that more should be done to preserve the environment but this proposed carbon tax is nothing more than a money grab. 
There has been absolutely no indication how the tax will be used to further emissions reduction research and strategies. So it is just a tax on large scale carbon emitters that will just be passed on to the end consumer.

The politicians are pushing their propaganda that there will be negligable effect on middle and lower income Autralians as a result of the tax. However the same politicians are proposing to compensate or rebate for the effects of the tax. If the effect will be negligable why would we need rebates or tax offsets and realistically the money collected will not go into a special environment fund but general revenue.

I have an alternative a foreign profit reduction tax and a foreign owned land tax. More than 70% of the mines in Australia are foreign owned and ever increasing amounts of prime farm land are being bought up by foreign entities. The profits of this Australian production are being syphoned off overseas. Change the taxation system to keep the wealth in this country instead of subsidising offshore entities then we may have the funds to spend on environment saving solutions.

It should be Australian production for Australian benefit. Instead we are getting to the stage where it is foreign owned production in Australia where a small amount is returned to Australia in tax. That is reduced again with rebates and subsidies then the vast majority goes overseas as profit. How dumb are we as a country for letting it happen. 

Regards
Octane


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## BigWillieStyles (Jul 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> I can't understand how the government still is pushing this when almost all Australia is saying clearly "NO".
> 
> Please play nicely.



Because its the right thing to do. Economists and Environmentalists agree that its a good thing for our economy and to lower emission. There has been numerous reports that show that the impact will be minor and it will increase growth in the renewables sector. 

There was much more opposition to the GST from to libs yet they never backed down and brought it in.



> Tougher laws on pollution is a better way, not a tax.



Not true. A cap on pollution would have a devastating effect on Australias energy use. The carbon tax makes renewables for energy companies a much better option. Currently coal is a far cheaper option. By making a tax on carbon emissions, the renewable sector looks more affordable and its likely energy companies will make the shift.

The media is playing it up more than its really is and I dont believe the polls are a good representation of the people. But the reality is that Australia needs a carbon tax.


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## goaty777 (Jul 7, 2011)

We do not need a carbon tax, what is required is an emmisions trading scheme. This is nothing more than an opportunity for redistribution of wealth (classic labour ideology). This is not good for Australia or Australian residents. Why will lower income people get more back in compensation than they pay and wealthier people get less? If they were serious about pricing carbon it would be uniform accross the board.For all those that dont believe businesses will move abroad, think again at $23 per tonne my business will be moving overseas as it will not be viable to manufacture here. I personally know of six other companies that are investigating alternative overseas manufacturing sites at present. What does this mean less jobs for Australians, less tax paid, etc, etc.Labour went to the last election with the promise there would be no carbon tax, why is it now doing it? This is to stay in power at any cost, it is a poor decision that will ultimately hurt the everyday Australian


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## BigWillieStyles (Jul 7, 2011)

goaty777 said:


> We do not need a carbon tax, what is required is an emmisions trading scheme. This is nothing more than an opportunity for redistribution of wealth (classic labour ideology). This is not good for Australia or Australian residents. Why will lower income people get more back in compensation than they pay and wealthier people get less? If they were serious about pricing carbon it would be uniform accross the board.For all those that dont believe businesses will move abroad, think again at $23 per tonne my business will be moving overseas as it will not be viable to manufacture here. I personally know of six other companies that are investigating alternative overseas manufacturing sites at present. What does this mean less jobs for Australians, less tax paid, etc, etc.Labour went to the last election with the promise there would be no carbon tax, why is it now doing it? This is to stay in power at any cost, it is a poor decision that will ultimately hurt the everyday Australian



Well if people voted for Labour, and they got in without the assistance of the Greens, then yes, there would be no carbon tax. Did you vote Labour?

It wont be long until most other countries will also have a carbon tax, so will moving overseas really be practical given the extra costs gst taxes, transportation, etc? There is already talk about making extra taxes on companies using offshore manurfacturing. Where are you planning on going offshore? Places like India, NZ, many parts of Europe already have a carbon tax in place. And china is already talking about bringing one in soon. By bringing in a carbon tax, it will also open doors to more renewable companies.


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## goaty777 (Jul 7, 2011)

Hogwash, this is a classic labour ideology. This is a redistribution of wealth! Why will lower income people get more in compenstaion than wealthier people? If they were serious they would bring in an emmisions trading scheme, which is a fairer way to implement something meaningfull.At $23 a tonne businesses will move overseas, they will be forced too. This government went to the last election on the back of there would be no carbon tax, what a backflip. Why ..... Because they want to stay in power and need the greens on board. The greens, what a joke talk about sending us backwards. This carbon tax is not good for australia, not good for business, not good for employment and definetely not good for australians



BigWillieStyles said:


> Well if people voted for Labour, and they got in without the assistance of the Greens, then yes, there would be no carbon tax. Did you vote Labour?It wont be long until most other countries will also have a carbon tax, so will moving overseas really be practical given the extra costs gst taxes, transportation, etc? There is already talk about making extra taxes on companies using offshore manurfacturing. Where are you planning on going offshore? Places like India, NZ, many parts of Europe already have a carbon tax in place. And china is already talking about bringing one in soon. By bringing in a carbon tax, it will also open doors to more renewable companies.


No i didnt vote labourOther European countries like Spain and Ireland? The ones that have watered it down and even thrown it out? By the way there not talking $23 per tonne but actually less than $5. they also dont have the mining revenue, employment spin offs we do. In regard to india chine etc, india currently have $1 per tonne. Yes makes australia very competitive doesnt it


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## Ramsayi (Jul 7, 2011)

All this talk of businesses moving,going broke etc is nonsense.As if any costs associated with the carbon tax wont be passed onto consumers.


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## ianinoz (Jul 7, 2011)

Stepping out of this discussion. 

Too many people ranting and politicing rather than discussing, if I want a heated political argument I'll go the pub or to a more appropiate board.


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## The Devil (Jul 7, 2011)

Not that many years ago there was a new religion called "the ozone layer". Remember about the hole in the ozone layer and things like skin cancer rates were going to go up 100 times ect. 
Haven't heard anything about that for some years.

Maybe China has the right idea with the 1 child rule. We all breath out CO2 so if we limit the population we limit CO2 ect. Oh, I forgot that China is going to commission about 100 NEW COAL fired power stations and 20 nuclear in the next 8 years.

Australia is going to save the world with a carbon tax but guess who will be supplying these 120 new power stations.

Interestingly the USA has rejected a carbon tax saying it will kill business and do more harm than good. They are going to rely on putting money into research.
That's a bit like the USA has also rejected the fiber optic high speed broadband as having little value for the enormous cost.
They are going with high speed, 30mbs, wireless/mobile broadband.


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## jack (Jul 7, 2011)

The Devil said:


> Not that many years ago there was a new religion called "the ozone layer". Remember about the hole in the ozone layer and things like skin cancer rates were going to go up 100 times ect.
> Haven't heard anything about that for some years.



that issue was addressed by nations who limited the gases responsible and slowed the degradation of the ozone. the problem is still there.


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## BigWillieStyles (Jul 7, 2011)

The Devil said:


> Interestingly the USA has rejected a carbon tax saying it will kill business and do more harm than good. They are going to rely on putting money into research.



USA is not a good model for Australia. Europe is the way to go.  But do remember that California, Colorado, and Maryland have a carbon tax and expect more states to follow suite.


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## moosenoose (Jul 7, 2011)

The only similarities with the GST and the Carbon Tax is the public being openly lied to. Then the similarities stop. I don't know why people are even trying to compare the two?

Gillard is acting like a communist :lol:


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## Sinners121 (Jul 7, 2011)

> Hogwash, this is a classic labour ideology. This is a redistribution of wealth!


 exactly it is all the government ever does redistribute the wealth why else do we have more than one tax bracket? all this is is a lie to the people so that they can cover up the deficiet and claim that they did without the carbon tax so they seem good. if they really wanted to make a difference they would set aside a certain percentage of their revenue each year and put it towards renewable energies instead of just making life harder for everyone in australia. but then they wouldnt realise that life is getting harder and harder for the middle to upper class because of this redistribution of wealth because we are paying for everything they do!!



> Gillard is acting like a communist


 could not agree more


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## goaty777 (Jul 7, 2011)

Prior to the GST being implemented we went to an election. The people voted and the government of the time had a mandate to do so. This government has no mandate to introduce this tax. To add insult to injury there is an overwhelming majority against its implementation.I have no problem in trying to reduce our carbon footprint but is a carbon tax the correct way to do it. In my opinion (it is just my opinion) it is not. Why arent we looking at implementing an emissions trading scheme now and not in 2016? The reason is this government is hanging onto power with the help of the greens, the greens want it! Labour needs it to try and balance the books, they know they will never be back in the black by next year and they need a cash grab quickly. The biggest concern is for middle class australians, can we afford it and at what cost?


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## fugawi (Jul 7, 2011)

Everyone keeps talking about the middle class aussies copping the brunt. Both middle and lower classes will both cop it. Gillard is giving the lower class a token payment, probably enough to buy a plasma tv or something, just a one off payment, to shut them up. Not much of a help when they are now unemployed. Coles, woolies, david jones and bunnings have all stated that if the carbon tax is implemented, they all must cut staff. This isn't just about middle class doing it rough, lower class WILL become unemployed.


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## wokka (Jul 7, 2011)

Isn't now the time to implement policies which may change the workforce. With near full employment there are plenty of alternatives about. If the policies encourage the development of sustainable energy industries then that in itself wil l produce additional work places.


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## goaty777 (Jul 7, 2011)

wokka said:


> Isn't now the time to implement policies which may change the workforce. With near full employment there are plenty of alternatives about. If the policies encourage the development of sustainable energy industries then that in itself wil l produce additional work places.


Does the carbon tax encourage the development of sustainable energy industries? With the introduction of the tax will we still have near full employment? I would hazard a guess and say there willnbe a dent in the unemployment figures. I heard (not sure if it, is factual) that off every 10 jobs in the energy resources which could be lost, only one would be replaced with sustainable energy resources jobs. Unfortunately this tax raises more questions than it answers, or the government can answer.


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## wokka (Jul 7, 2011)

goaty777 said:


> Does the carbon tax encourage the development of sustainable energy industries? With the introduction of the tax will we still have near full employment? I would hazard a guess and say there willnbe a dent in the unemployment figures. I heard (not sure if it, is factual) that off every 10 jobs in the energy resources which could be lost, only one would be replaced with sustainable energy resources jobs. Unfortunately this tax raises more questions than it answers, or the government can answer.


We are all guessing at the moment. It depends on what happens with the money collected, but I hope some of it will be used to encourage renewable energy and at worst it will increase the price of dirty energy to give clean energy a chance.. Factually, i think you will find that dirty energy production is not labour intensive. Developing renewable energy systems will create far more jobs than those lost in the dirty energy production. The price of coal has risen substantially over the last few years. Even if the net price dropped by say 20% it would still be viable to continue mining but the broader Australian community would be receiving a fairer share rather than the corrent handfull of miners.


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## moosenoose (Jul 7, 2011)

Everyone keeps talking about the prospect of jobs in renewable energy and opportunities that will "supposedly" be forthcoming, but what about people who work for the current industries that are going to be hit by all of this? Is it their fault they work in an industry that provides most, if not all of the general populations power etc? Why are they being targeted? If coal burning power stations ran out of coal tomorrow, we'd all be up the proverbial creek! Why? Because our ability to provide substantial power by any other means is extremely limited. Who's fault is that? The filthy government trying to tax the crap out of us knowing there are no other alternatives, that's who!!

Why doesn't Gillard and Brown walk to work? At that rate they wouldn't make the journey into parliament to impliment ridiculous out-of-touch futuristic ideas that our society can't possibly, or financially, live up to!


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## Renenet (Jul 7, 2011)

wokka said:


> We are all guessing at the moment. It depends on what happens with the money collected



Agreed.


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## moosenoose (Jul 7, 2011)

*Don't agree.*



Renenet said:


> Agreed.



Don't agree. 

Once the horse has bolted with this ridiculous tax we'll be stuck with it.


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## fugawi (Jul 8, 2011)

Flame suit on....Check. Fire extinguishers at the ready......Check. Area cleared of flammable materials......Check. Ok, here we go. LOL

First....I shot Santa Claus while breaking and entering, I gave the Easter Bunny myxomatosis, there aren't any little fairies running around the garden and the only thing that makes pigs fly is a Barrett 50 cal at close range........REALITY CHECK.......These things don't exist, your parents lied to you. Sorry.
The federal government cares about the environment and our childrens, childrens, childrens future and wants to make the world a better, cleaner place.......Second reality check......They care as far into the future as the next election.
The Tax will not just be to the energy suppliers but to everyone that has a carbon footprint. Everyone from the raw material stage through manufacturing to the retail sector. Lets look at something as simple as cotton. The cotton farmer has massive harvesters and after he harvests he lets his sheep get a feed then burns the rest giving him a decent size carbon footprint. He gets taxed. The cotton is transported (big trucks...tax) ending up at the cloth manufacturing plant......Big tax there, then transported again (Tax) to the clothing manufacturer ....another big tax, then transported again (tax) to the retailer, lots of lighting and air cons.....more tax. The end result, the farmer goes under and sells his farm to the Chinese, the transport companies lay off workers, the cloth and clothing manufacturers move OS and the retailers lay off workers. This scenario will happen across ALL the consumable market place, food, clothing, cars, toasters.....everything we make and everything we buy.

Hmmmmmmmm.....sounds good to me, it's for our future generations and the environment.........Yeah right.

Has anyone noticed that our power bill has doubled of late with the promise of another $200+ price rise. Of course it has nothing to do with setting up for the carbon tax so the government can say "But it hasn't gone up since we introduced the carbon tax!". Last reality check......We are already paying the carbon tax on our electricity bills.......

Bracing for the flaming.......LOL


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## moosenoose (Jul 8, 2011)

I wont be flaming you :lol:

The one thing I've noticed about people who are pro-carbon tax say we're all unfairly panicking in regards to it affecting our lives (more so our bank accounts). I find it a little ironic as they are the ones flipping out that the "sky is falling" and if we don't do something quick we'll all going to die a choking horrible death :lol: In the 1000yrs it'll take to turn things around, I'm guessing there won't be any coal left to burn :lol: Either that or we're hit by a massive asteroid or WW3 breaks out. But hey, forward plan for the future, just don't let it send the country to the wall


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## Jackrabbit (Jul 8, 2011)

fugawi said:


> I can't understand how the government still is pushing this when almost all Australia is saying clearly "NO".
> 
> Please play nicely.



They push it because they can. we can't stop them. Only the opposition can stop them but if the Greens get what they want then it might go through.



moosenoose said:


> don't agree.
> 
> Once the horse has bolted with this ridiculous tax we'll be stuck with it.



correct

Remember the 3 x 3 for NSW residents paying 3% on something for 3 years to be spent on our roads? Well we still pay that tax. I can't remember if it was on petrol or registrations, doesn't matter either way we still pay it and not many people remember it.

When Labor got back in did they repeal GST? No, they love the revenue it gives them.

Wasn't the 1.5% tax we pay for Medicare supposed to be temporary as well?


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## sesa-sayin (Jul 8, 2011)

What do Lemmings, spawning salmon, and some pods of whales, often Pilot whales, and the Labor Party have in common ?????????? A love of suicide.


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## FAY (Jul 8, 2011)

Speaking about taxes that never go away.
Does anyone know about the 'tax' all air travelers pay on their tickets to make sure all the Ansett employees got their money that was owed when Ansett went bust??
Are we still paying it??? If we are , why??


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## D3pro (Jul 8, 2011)

sesa-sayin said:


> What do Lemmings, spawning salmon, and some pods of whales, often Pilot whales, and the Labor Party have in common ?????????? A love of suicide.


Don't forget emos and bankrupt tycoons...


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## junglepython2 (Jul 8, 2011)

sesa-sayin said:


> What do Lemmings, spawning salmon, and some pods of whales, often Pilot whales, and the Labor Party have in common ?????????? A love of suicide.



I rate that!


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