# Savannah cats - petition



## tooninoz (Jun 16, 2008)

If you are against the import of yet more feral species (and a potentially dangerous one) I have set up a petition to MP Peter Garrett. Unfortunately Mr Garrett doesnt listen much anymore to enviro issues, but...
it's worth a shot.

- if you agree with what Ive written, sign it. Send it to your friends.

- if you don't agree, don't sign it. Also, don't whinge about your love of cats/hybrids etc because this is not the thread for it.

- it's for people that love Australian fauna.

http://www.gopetition.com.au/online/19950.html

cheers, toon


*Note from the Mods*: the opinions expressed in this thread are from the membership of APS. This thread breaks no site rules. However, it's presence here cannot be taken as an endorsement by APS administration, and the views expressed here, one way or the other, are not necessarily the views of APS admin or the Mods. 
Hix


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## Hsut77 (Jun 16, 2008)

Signed. Good Idea Toon.


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## adazz (Jun 16, 2008)

Signed


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## fraser1980 (Jun 16, 2008)

signed to :lol:


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## Smellie (Jun 16, 2008)

got my autograph


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## kandi (Jun 16, 2008)

signed


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## Tatelina (Jun 16, 2008)

Signed. Thankyou.


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## slim6y (Jun 16, 2008)

as well


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## xycom (Jun 16, 2008)

We've signed aswell but perhaps people wanna sign ours!

We've started one aswell at:

http://www.snakerescue.com.au


Per


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## FNQ_Snake (Jun 16, 2008)

Hmmmmnn?


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## Veredus (Jun 16, 2008)

Signed


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## Dodie (Jun 17, 2008)

Bump 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2277365.htm?section=justin


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## Luke1 (Jun 17, 2008)

i put a link on my blog (asked for permission) 

http://lukesaussiereptiles.blogspot.com


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## calisto (Jun 17, 2008)

Thanks for the link, signed!


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## Tim.Arm (Jun 17, 2008)

*Signed.*


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## Fuscus (Jun 17, 2008)

signed - but PG, despite his history, is just an empty suit and is, IMHO, useless


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## carkat (Jun 17, 2008)

Done! 

We have seen the effects of introduced species of many animals upon our native wildlife. We don't need to add to that list by allowing the importation and private ownership of the 'Savannah cat'.


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## jack (Jun 17, 2008)

i am beginning to wonder about his history.... what if it was all posturing to sell records? 
dunno how he sleeps at night now...


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## caustichumor (Jun 17, 2008)

Done, yeah more cats, that's what we need!


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## alex_c (Jun 17, 2008)

signed and posted link as a bulletin on myspace.


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## missllama (Jun 17, 2008)

thankyou so much for posting this! signed and forwarded onto others
if everyone els could email it on to other people that dont use this site that would be great!
the more people that see this the better!


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## missllama (Jun 17, 2008)

by the way only #386 have signed so far so please keep sending it to others!!!


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## nuthn2do (Jun 17, 2008)

jack said:


> i am beginning to wonder about his history.... what if it was all posturing to sell records?
> dunno how he sleeps at night now...


Hope Peter hasn't chucked out the tracksuit he used at the 2000 olympics ........ he might need it in a few years
[video=youtube;LLxOq5SNLIg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLxOq5SNLIg[/video]


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## HiltonT (Jun 17, 2008)

Signed, concerned about the emptiness of Peter Garrett's new suit and very much agasp at the thought that this breed of cat is even being considered for acceptance into Australia.

I also blogged about this at http://hiltont.blogspot.com/2008/06/savanna-fauna-destroyers.html.


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

There's already breeders of this type of cat in Australia and other large cat breeds (i.e. Maine Coon).

They are expensive (so I doubt anybody would want to risk their brand new expensive pet getting lost by letting them outside) and also the breeders tend to be picky as to who they sell them to. 

Not only that but I'm pretty sure they sell all their cats desexed, well I know that's the case with a few breeders I've read about.

Wont be signing the petition.


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## krusty (Jun 17, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> There's already breeders of this type of cat in Australia and other large cat breeds (i.e. Maine Coon).
> 
> They are expensive (so I doubt anybody would want to risk their brand new expensive pet getting lost by letting them outside) and also the breeders tend to be picky as to who they sell them to.
> 
> ...



i'm with you metal jazz,this hole thing is nothing but a big joke.........JMO.


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## CassM (Jun 17, 2008)

Signed both of them, going to chuck them on my myspace too!


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## nuthn2do (Jun 17, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> There's already breeders of this type of cat in Australia and other large cat breeds (i.e. Maine Coon).
> 
> They are expensive (so I doubt anybody would want to risk their brand new expensive pet getting lost by letting them outside) and also the breeders tend to be picky as to who they sell them to.
> 
> ...


They will only sell desexed? That's a bit naive, 5 years down the track when they are an accepted breed you'll be able to pick them up for $500 with all bits intact


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

nuthn2do said:


> They will only sell desexed? That's a bit naive, 5 years down the track when they are an accepted breed you'll be able to pick them up for $500 with all bits intact




They sell desexed because of the risk of them escaping and breeding... I don't find that naive at all... it's responsible.

Maybe under special circumstances they will sell with all their bits intact, i'm not sure. But generally they only sell once the kittens have been desexed, microchipped, and vaccinated


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## Hetty (Jun 17, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> They sell desexed because of the risk of them escaping and breeding... I don't find that naive at all... it's responsible.
> 
> Maybe under special circumstances they will sell with all their bits intact, i'm not sure. But generally they only sell once the kittens have been desexed, microchipped, and vaccinated



That works for a while, but you can't say it will work down the track.

I don't think anyone thinks these animals will be feral straight away, but in ten or twenty years it's a possibility.


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## nuthn2do (Jun 17, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> They sell desexed because of the risk of them escaping and breeding... I don't find that naive at all... it's responsible.
> 
> Maybe under special circumstances they will sell with all their bits intact, i'm not sure. But generally they only sell once the kittens have been desexed, microchipped, and vaccinated


Would you want a desexed GTP? Seriously, these things will come through imports once legalized with all bits connected. The breeders advertising at the moment want sole rights to the gold mine, thats the only reason for desexing.


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## congo_python (Jun 17, 2008)

Signed and lets hope it makes a difference.

Congo


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

nuthn2do said:


> Would you want a desexed GTP? .





...... :shock:
Are you serious?

There's a BIG difference between cats and snakes, it's not like a GTP is going to escape and breed with feral GTP's 

ALL kittens should come desexed and I think it is good that breeders (some at least) are doing so.

Sure they make more profit due to not every man and his dog (well..cat) breeding them just because they can; but not only is it preventing possible escapees from breeding it's also keeping the lines pure.


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## tooninoz (Jun 17, 2008)

*Metal Jazz,* I wouldnt have expected any different from you. 
-Yes, there may be breeders and importers with these feral creatures (and others) in Australia.
- Yes, there are already other feral cats in Australia.
- No, the breeders _will _sell breeding pairs eventually (and from $15,000 upwards) from AWL estimates.
- Yes, there is a very high likelihood that these ferals will escape into Australian wilderness eventually and breed.

As I stated in the initial blurb;

quote=tooninoz;1178645]If you are against the import of yet more feral species (and a potentially dangerous one) I have set up a petition to MP Peter Garrett. Unfortunately Mr Garrett doesnt listen much anymore to enviro issues, but...
it's worth a shot.

- if you agree with what Ive written, sign it. Send it to your friends.

- if you don't agree, don't sign it. Also, don't whinge about your love of cats/hybrids etc because this is not the thread for it.

- it's for people that love Australian fauna.

http://www.gopetition.com.au/online/19950.html

cheers, toon[/quote]

 Perhaps you just overlooked 99% of what was written. Again.

Wrote it in pink for you.


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## missllama (Jun 17, 2008)

> ALL kittens should come desexed and I think it is good that breeders (some at least) are doing so.


 
couldnt agree more, someone stated on another thread something about toxoplasmosis which is a extreemly bad issue caused by roaming cats the more cats the more chances of this happening, also the way that cats are breeding in australia is becoming a huge problem there are WAY too many 

but i cant say i dont like cats i love mine  but i think that they shouldnt be sold unless they are desexed and cats shouldnt be alowed to roam at night especially


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## missllama (Jun 17, 2008)

i shouldnt say caused by roaming cats because anycat pooping anywhere can cause it but say a cat comes and poos in an outdoor enclosure ur reps can end up with it, my squirrel gliders can end up with it if i use mulch that cats have gone to the loo in etc

its just a huge prob


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

tooninoz said:


> *Metal Jazz,* I wouldnt have expected any different from you.
> -Yes, there may be breeders and importers with these feral creatures (and others) in Australia.
> - Yes, there are already other feral cats in Australia.
> - No, the breeders _will _sell breeding pairs eventually (and from $15,000 upwards) from AWL estimates.
> ...




I read it all, thanks.

If you were referring to "if you don't agree, don't sign it. Also, don't whinge about your love of cats/hybrids etc because this is not the thread for it."

I wasn't whinging about my love of cats/hybrids I was simply saying that I wont sign your petition and why.

And i'd love to know where else i've overlooked 99% of what was written.


Why would I want it written in pink? I dislike that colour...


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## tooninoz (Jun 17, 2008)

No, Metal Jazz, the 99% referred to the fact that it linked to a petition. If you look at the thread title you may see as much (dunno if you have a strong bandwidth out your way cobber).

If you dont want to sign it.... dont. 

Honestly, I couldnt put it any simpler. PM me if you are having more difficulties.


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

tooninoz said:


> No, Metal Jazz, the 99% referred to the fact that it linked to a petition. If you look at the thread title you may see as much (dunno if you have a strong bandwidth out your way cobber).
> 
> If you dont want to sign it.... dont.
> 
> Honestly, I couldnt put it any simpler. PM me if you are having more difficulties.




You don't have to be rude.

I didn't want to sign it, so I didn't; I also posted why.... I didn't realize we weren't allowed to discuss anything


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## stafturbo (Jun 17, 2008)

Signed


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## fraser888 (Jun 17, 2008)

Signed, don't need anymore cats in Australia.


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## tooninoz (Jun 17, 2008)

Ah for the love of God!.... No!, Metal Jazz, No!! we...will.....slow.......the....whole....class........down..........for.........you.

If you dont agree with the petition, dont SIGN it.

If you dont agree with the petition, why are you even on this thread? There are already threads dedicated to this theme (in a neg/pos sense).

Why are you not over-populating _those _threads?


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## Noongato (Jun 17, 2008)

Is there another partition anywhere -for- the savannahs?


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## boxhead (Jun 17, 2008)

DONE -Thanks toons


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## jessb (Jun 17, 2008)

midnightserval said:


> Is there another partition anywhere -for- the savannahs?


 

hmmmm, not on APS methinks!


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

Ah for the love of God!.... No!, Metal Jazz, No!! we...will.....slow.......the....whole....class........down..........for.........you.

*You're going a little overboard with the rudeness there tooninoz, there really is no need, I haven't been rude to you nor have I been slow as you seem to think.*

If you dont agree with the petition, dont SIGN it.

*I seen it the first time you wrote that and I don't see what repeating it has anything to do with anything really. I didn't sign it and I'm not going on about signing it, I was simply stating so and giving a look in to as why and bringing on some form of discussion.*

If you dont agree with the petition, why are you even on this thread? There are already threads dedicated to this theme (in a neg/pos sense).

*I didn't realize only people who agree with the petition had the right to post in this thread, so sorry.
I did see that there was to be no whingeing, so I didn't whinge. I simply commented about the the cat breeders that are being sensible.
*
Why are you not over-populating _those _threads?

*I'm not out actively seeking cat threads, I just seen this thread and commented. Why are you making such a huge deal out of it? Not to mention being extremely rude in the process.*


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## dunno103 (Jun 17, 2008)

I am signer number 512, is that a random number generated by a computer (2^9)?

Thanks

Hope he stops this from happening, also asked for all that exist in this country to be destroyed.


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## yeldarb (Jun 17, 2008)

thanks for the link
well i signed, now i have to try and get rid of this beast


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## cement (Jun 17, 2008)

"ALL kittens should come desexed and I think it is good that breeders (some at least) are doing so."

Cats and kittens shouldn't come AT ALL in this country.
Signed and sent.


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## porkosta (Jun 17, 2008)

Good idea... good luck

Signed.

Cheers,
Andy


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## callith (Jun 17, 2008)

Signed


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## Miss B (Jun 17, 2008)

Metal_Jazz said:


> They sell desexed because of the risk of them escaping and breeding... I don't find that naive at all... it's responsible.



LOL do you really think that is the reason these cats are being sold desexed?!! :lol:

These cats are being sold desexed because they are commanding such high prices that the breeders do not want anyone else getting a slice of their kitty pie by purchasing entire cats and becoming breeders themselves. That is the one and only reason.

Petition signed.


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## Sidonia (Jun 17, 2008)

Miss B said:


> LOL do you really think that is the reason these cats are being sold desexed?!! :lol:




Part of the reason, yes. More so they can gain profit though I agree.


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## xycom (Jun 18, 2008)

midnightserval said:


> Is there another partition anywhere -for- the savannahs?


 

Partition ???? 

There *is* another petition *against* Savannah cats. So please sign both of them. 
Tooninoz beat me by about 1hour, I spent 2 days seeking advice and modifting our site . P.G. needs to be pushed as much as possible to make changes so Australias biodiversity is not complety lost.

The other one is at:

http://www.snakerescue.com.au/

Petitions tend to fall on deaf ears so please send P.G. an email and tell him what you think!


Per


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## mrboajangles (Jun 18, 2008)

oh man put me on the list for one of these cats they look awesome


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## snakes_666 (Jun 18, 2008)

Got my signature


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## tooninoz (Jun 18, 2008)

Great to see so many people passionately defending Australian wildlife. The petition has over 1100 signatures and is climbing rapidly thanks to the work of all involved.
Especially to Dr. Rick Shine and Dr. Tony Peacock for the media exposure and support;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2277376.htm

http://www2b.abc.net.au/science/scribblygum/newposts/371/post371548.shtm

This issue will also be raised on radio 4ZZZ during the early week and in various other media outlets.

The aim is to stop the petition next Wednesday (25 June) and send it on to MP Garrett.

cheers, toon


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## Noongato (Jun 19, 2008)

Ok, i found the other partition to support the savannah cats, not many signatures compared to the 'against' one. Anyhue, here it is http://www.gopetition.com/online/19994.html I signed it anyway, but like i said, i would be a responsible owner if i had a $5000 cat.


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## tooninoz (Jun 20, 2008)

Of course, that petition is written by Carly Parker (one of the importing partnership) who stands to lose her 'cash-cow' if action is taken.
I love how she describes people against the import of these cats as "pathetic". Nice touch.
Interestingly, most of the sigs are also from the USA too.......


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## thals (Jun 20, 2008)

Signed both, least we can do is try voice ourselves and express our concerns. Good onyas for starting up the petitions guys 8)


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## Hickson (Jun 20, 2008)

Some of you may find this interesting reading.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/savannah-cat.pdf



Hix


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## Snakeaddict (Jun 20, 2008)

Signed


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## redbellybite (Jun 20, 2008)

SIGNED hope it doesnt happen


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## centralian11 (Jun 20, 2008)

Signed . We did breed and show cats for many years and i know that cats can and do escape even with the best of care . I can remember when the Bengals [ another hybred breed ]was introduced . They had a very bad nature . One judge was attacked by a kitten at a show in Canberra and had to be admitted to hospital . Bengals are no way as big as the savanah but still a dangerous animal . There is no way these animals should be introduced into Australia . There place is in a zoo that way interested fanciers can view them in a suitation where our wildlife is less likely to be attacked .
Why if these animals can be introduced it is impossible to import reptiles . They are less likely to do damage to the eco system .
Just my thoughts 
Barry


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## slim6y (Jun 20, 2008)

Hix said:


> Some of you may find this interesting reading.
> 
> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/savannah-cat.pdf
> 
> ...



Thanks - I did note one of the references is wikipaedia  

was too big to take in now - but i got the jist anyways...


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## Surfcop24 (Jun 20, 2008)

*Signed...*

Although I am a Lover of Cats... Mainly Larger Species... And still think it is a pretty Kewl Lookin Cat....

I do agree with everyones comments regarding it killing animals in backyards...And in the bush when it becomes Feral.......


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## jkosey (Jun 20, 2008)

I love All types of animals..... Myself and partner have 3 cats (never ever let outside) 3 Staffies and 2 snakes.... what to do cause i wanted to get a bengal cat if the chance arose......


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## paleoherp (Jun 20, 2008)

bump


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## Mr feegle (Jun 20, 2008)

Signed one for each person in house


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 20, 2008)

Hix said:


> Some of you may find this interesting reading.
> 
> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/savannah-cat.pdf
> 
> ...



Very interesting indeed - may common sense prevail


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## jessb (Jun 20, 2008)

Hix said:


> Some of you may find this interesting reading.
> 
> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/savannah-cat.pdf
> 
> ...


 

Very interesting reading. Basically, all the facts suggest that there is a high likelihood thatdespite all the best precautions, some Savannah cats will eventually escape, and if they do breed with feral cats then they will be a stronger, more successful hunter with virtually no predators who will be able to kill larger native animals than existing domestic and feral cats. 

I don't understand how the government can even be considering allowing this species into Australia!


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## Duke (Jun 20, 2008)

Facebook is a good way to reach people too.
Just found this that my non-herp friend recently joined:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=828480150&ref=ts#/group.php?gid=49270145257&ref=mf


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## cracksinthepitch (Jun 20, 2008)

Gee lets bring in an Alpha preditor and let unlicensed uneducated people house it .This makes perfect sense.
Signed and good luck.


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## bump73 (Jun 20, 2008)

Signed 

Have to add that all this talk of them only being sold desexed is utter BS..If you look at the site it says that anyone registered as a breeder with a cat society can buy them not desexed..IMO only a matter of time before they are being sold to anyone not desexed and the prices come down leading to more irresponsibe owners...

Ben


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## herptrader (Jun 20, 2008)

Hix said:


> Some of you may find this interesting reading.
> 
> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/savannah-cat.pdf
> 
> ...




MMMmmm....



> Should Savannah Cats escape and establish with feral Domestic Cat
> populations in Australia they would be expected to have similar dietary requirements to
> feral Domestic Cats. Should there be larger specimens resulting from Savannah Cat-feral
> Domestic Cat cross-breeding, these specimens may be able to *prey on larger native fauna*.


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## tooninoz (Jun 20, 2008)

Hix said:


> Some of you may find this interesting reading.
> 
> http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/pubs/savannah-cat.pdf
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link Hix. It's a bit odd that this report is dated as of yesterday, yet the purported importers of these cats suggest that that they'll be here in September?
Given that we have just under a month to submit a concern, it suggests that this issue isnt done and dusted! How positive is that?  It looks as though the importers are....well, I wouldnt accuse them of _lying_, but surely speculating in the hope of receiving deposits. 
Starting to smell a bit dicey.

Quote from the report;

_7.1 Likelihood of Escape
The keeping, including control of escape, of companion cats in Australia is the
responsibility of individual owners. The degree that individuals take this responsibility
seriously varies significantly.
Some breeders and individual owners present the case that the value (monetary or
personal) of specimens may reduce the risk of escape or deliberate release. There is not
always a correlation between the price of specimens and the level of secure housing
provided by the owner or breeder. There is an issue of the monetary value of a specimen
reducing after a period of time as numbers of specimens in captivity increase, and if the
popularity of the specimen and interest in, or challenge of breeding, changes.
There is also a risk that, even if valuable, some owners may find that release is
preferential to alternatives of on-selling (alternative ownership) or euthanasia if their
situation changes and they find they cannot keep the specimen(s). This may also be the
case if a specimen’s temperament is undesirable and is not compatible to the needs of an
owner.
Olsen and Jensz (2007) suggested that Factors that can influence the likelihood of escape
or release of cat hybrids include: the security of the premises holding the hybrids,
including cages in homes; the keeping restrictions placed on hybrid cat owners; and
community and keeper attitudes. Cats are hard to confine and readily escape and many
members of the community feel that it is cruel to keep them confined in homes and cages,
which can lead to willful or accidental release. Natural disasters and accidents can allow
release even from the most secure cages. It is hard to control the keeping and breeding of
cats and to detect breaches, and even harder to locate and remove the escapees. Hence,
there is a high risk of escape or release._

I think that sums up the risks associated with these creatures.


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## HeyyDude (Jun 20, 2008)

*Signed*

YUP I signed it (Hmmmm Does it count if I'm 12???! LOL ahh well, they won't know!)


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## tooninoz (Jun 20, 2008)

I contacted the Animal Welfare League yesterday regarding their logo appearing on the importers site, and asked them about their stance.

I received an email today stating;



> In response to your query regarding the League's stance on the
> importation of this breed, I can advise that our Board has not
> considered our stance.
> 
> ...


As of this afternoon, the AWL logo and message of alleged support has been removed. 

This is an important step, given that the importers have obviously proven themselves to be somewhat deceitful by using another companies logo and implied support of their business.

If people were to mention it in any submission to Govt, I feel that it may add a lot of weight. If the importers themselves cant be trusted, can we trust the owners?


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## xycom (Jun 20, 2008)

The Minister for the Environment, P. G. has formulated the above mentioned proposal under Part 13A of the _Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC Act)_ to amend the _List of Specimens taken to be Suitable for Live Import_ (live import list) for *Savannah Cats.*

Comments are invited on the draft report, details are available at: 

http://www.environment.gov.au:80/biodiversity/trade-use/invitecomment/savannah-cat.html

Just to let people know the other petition will now be put to the Senate as soon as we get the OK from Senator Bob Brown (we still need to fix a couple of things)




Per


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## justbrad (Jun 20, 2008)

i'v signed too!!!


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## alex_c (Jun 21, 2008)

*Great news*

 http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23897013-662,00.html


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## TonyPeacock (Jun 21, 2008)

*Good news on Savannahs*

The Minister for the Environment has taken a really good stand and acted quickly on this issue. Good on you guys for petitioning and keeping a media spotlight on the issue.

I've reprinted the Minister's statement on my blog www.feral.typepad.com

The draft risk assessment by the Department is very damning of Savannahs. It rates the risk to public saftey posed by captive or released animals as "moderately dangerous"; the risk of establishing a wild population as "extreme" and the risk of becoming a pest following establishment as "extreme".

At first glance, this would seem to put the kibosh on the cats coming to Australia. The EPBC Act requires the Minister to exercise the precautionary principle, so it would be hard to allow them given this risk assessment. If they are allowed, they'll probably be extremely tough restrictions, I imagine.

There is a 20 day comment period and the Invasive Animals CRC will certainly put a strong case that the draft risk assessment has got it right and the cats are better off left in the USA.

Any decision only relates to Savannah cats and we need to press that any hybrid breed needs careful examination. Better to have the default position that any hybrid stays out and a person wanting to bring one in has to show proof that it is no risk to the environment.

Keep getting people to sign the petition - there is now one in favour of these cats - many people clearly don't understand the issue.

Thanks again, snake people.


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## Hetty (Jun 21, 2008)

Here's a quote from the link Tony Peacock posted:
"An online herpetology discussion group spontaneously started a petition that has over 1000 signatures in a little over a day."

Go us! 

The minister reviewing this is a very positive thing. Hopefully we can keep these cats out of the country.


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## Lovemysnakes (Jun 21, 2008)

Yeah - done and dusted


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## xycom (Jun 21, 2008)

As mentioned above the laws need to be changed for all Hybrids..! What's next? A Leopard X perhaps

The petition at http://www.snakerescue.com.au will be closing soon, not sure when. We will be sending it to Senator Christine Milne and TRYIING to get her to present it to the Senate next Thursday. I only hope we have sent it to her in time and it conforms to the Senate rules for petitions. We only just found out when the Senate was meeting.

Thank you to all those who have signed! There's still time to get more names on the list!



Per


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## bundy_zigg (Jun 21, 2008)

imagine what you could all do if you made a peteion to make laws against keeping cat that are not desexed and the way in which they are kept? I find it funny that there are regulations regarding dogs and the way in which they are kept(rego, fenced yard) but there is nothing regards to cats. It doesnt take a smart person to figure out the likelyness of escape if they are leagaly allowed out doors with no registration! In QLD we can not keep rabbits or ferits but i can keep as many cats as i like with out any real responsability to their needs. Our government has caused these problems(not to mention bad owners) the cat its self should not be persicuted. In saying all this i do believe that the savannah should not be allowed in to australia because we have already proven we can not be responsable owners.


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## Mulcahy (Jun 21, 2008)

Signed


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## Wild~Touch (Jun 21, 2008)

Three cheers for you Tony Peacock for alerting us of something drastic that was going to happen, ie sneaked in the back door. Too late once the hybrids are in Oz.
Cheers
Sandee


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## Noongato (Jun 21, 2008)

I want a savannah.....


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2008)

alex_c said:


> http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23897013-662,00.html



MMmmm...



> Last night Mr Parker, of Savannah Cats Australia, who has spent five years on plans to breed the cats and sell them for about $5000 each, accused Mr Garrett of not doing his homework.



Coming from somebody who plans to make a quarter of a million dollars in turnover in the first year what else would you expect him to say!


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## herptrader (Jun 21, 2008)

midnightserval said:


> I want a savannah.....



I am hopeful that moving to the US is your only option.


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## Fuscus (Jun 21, 2008)

The story has just hit ABC TV. Footage of the animals jumping was very impressive. We REALLY don't want these in the country and people who import/buy these must really hate our remaining wildlife.
Off course, the really stupid thing is that people can import ANY cat at all.


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## daniel1234 (Jun 21, 2008)

Both my cats and myself have signed the petition (no I am not kidding I really did sign it as I hate uncontrolled/ferrel cats, in fact I don't really like the ones we have but at least I know where they are and they can't reproduce).


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## daniel1234 (Jun 21, 2008)

Fuscus said:


> The story has just hit ABC TV. Footage of the animals jumping was very impressive. We REALLY don't want these in the country and people who import/buy these must really hate our remaining wildlife.
> Off course, the really stupid thing is that people can import ANY cat at all.


 
And not snakes, love those boas.


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## moosenoose (Jun 22, 2008)

daniel1234 said:


> And not snakes



No, but you have take your pick of exotic birds, fish, dogs and cats  I'm sure ferrets are nearly a native Australian animal now  Let's keep it in mind that the reason exotic snakes aren't allowed into this country is simply because they have scales....and are slimy killing machines  So god-damn typical that just about everything else gets passed and brought through because they can "control it" and the stuff they haven't a clue about is a potential environmental time-bomb!  I just love double-standards! If this cat was an exotic snake they'd have buckleys bringing it in! Absolute BUCKLEYS!


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## daniel1234 (Jun 22, 2008)

Hetty said:


> That works for a while, but you can't say it will work down the track.
> 
> I don't think anyone thinks these animals will be feral straight away, but in ten or twenty years it's a possibility.


 
Exactly:|

_Edit:_
Wrote my two posts before reading whole (long) thread. Good to see it is worth the effort, that some one important is listening, Metal Jazz gets a vote both ways for me (I don't agree with the rational but do with the whole whats the thread for bit) and thanks for expanding on my point moosenoose, thats precisely what I was implying.

Well done guys.


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## xycom (Jun 22, 2008)

As sad as it may seem but I think Australias biodiversity is doomed. It seems to be very hard to control people with $$ signs for eyes, especially when many of them run the country.


Per


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## Boney (Jun 22, 2008)

i hate cats ! they do alot of damage on native animals . but so do alot of other things . there are people who like cats so let them have them . they should just be made to house them correctly . . pretty sure there are people who dont want us to have reptiles in captivity i know our permits are for natives , but still why make it harder for other people . and yes i do care for our wildlife .


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## tooninoz (Jun 25, 2008)

Given the Govts new draft submission, the petition will be extended til early July. It is currently near 4500 and given the publicity it is receiving in the media, should go close to 20,000 by that time.
Great work! Good to see Australians standing up for Australian native wildlife 

Lets show the Govt and the ignorant that we wont abide by laws that allow more pests into the country. Havent we learnt from the Cane Toad? Rabbit? Fox?

Carly Parker (Australian importer) has a pro-Savannah petition as well, as has been documented on previous pages. That petition is struggling to reach 400 signatures, and nearly all of them are from the US. There has been some Australians sign it allegedly.


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## nuthn2do (Jun 25, 2008)

Add these petition links to your email sig. 
I'm not even mentioning the cause and 60% of people i've email have signed


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## herptrader (Jun 25, 2008)

nuthn2do said:


> Add these petition links to your email sig.
> I'm not even mentioning the cause and 60% of people i've email have signed



The link to this petition was added to the Herp Trader web site: http://herptrader.com.au a week or so back. I am sure that Judy, aka trader will leave it up for the duration.


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 2, 2008)

Woo Hoo .......6744 sigs


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## tooninoz (Jul 3, 2008)

The petition is at around 6850 sigs. The pro-feral animal lobby' petition is at around 414. A lot are from the US etc (not in Australia, and without any actual grounding in the country)

The petition will be sent off on Sunday to a mass of recipients .

Thanks to all that not only signed, but who forwarded it on to others etc.

Let's not forget what the importers state on the website;

"You can reserve your Savannah kitten today to ensure you are one of the first in Australia to own a Savannah. Due to high demand and limited numbers to be placed on this list a *NON-REFUNDABLE deposit of $1000 is required*. Once the kittens are born you will be notified in the date order in which your money was deposited into our account and you can choose your kitten from that litter. If you are unable to accept at that stage your name will remain on the list in the same position and you will be notified at the time of the next litter. Your deposit guarantees you a Savannah and this entire deposit is applied towards the cost of your kitten."


Let's stop the scammers that have no interest in Australian wildlife and are only interested in fleecing the slower of society into parting with cash


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## thepythonpit (Jul 15, 2008)

did anybody else get this email 
from the people bringing these cats in???

Hi,

Thank you for your concerns, you amongst so many others have been mislead. 
The Savannahs that are being imported into Australia are F5 generation, five generations removed and the one's being sold are F6 and F7, 6 and 7 generations removed, these cat will weigh 3.5-7.7kgs, far less than the 20kg monster that is being portrayed by the media. Even F1 Savannahs, one generation removed don't reach this weight. Anything that is four or more generations removed is classed as a domestic cat, so the accusations that these rules were not made with new breed cats in mind is in fact wrong.
If anyone bothered to ask us, we will in fact be selling ONLY DESEXED Savannahs within Australia as the breeders have already been establish within Australia and this network of breeders are all part of the initial import. The breeders for sale on Australian websites are for international sales, Japan, China, Asia etc. 
I feel sorry for all those who have been lead down the garden path by the scaremongering that has been stirred lately. If you would like to check out our website we have published the FINAL report that was conducted on the importation of the Savannah prior to any importation procedures being undertaken and that report was favourable, therefore we went ahead with the importation. 
Sadly the people opposing this importation think we are idiots who came down in the last shower not knowing anything about anything, we did in fact do our research, we have been working on this for the past 4 years.
As I have told everyone else who has sent emails of this kind to us, seeing though you were so quick to send us to the slaughter, perhaps we should be questioning the motives of the people responsible for this unnecessary waste of everyone's time. 
I have attached three supporting documents, The Final Report done in May 2007, The analysis of the Draft Report 19 June 2008 and a copy of our contract.
Now its time for you to make an informed decision.
Kind Regards 
Carly 



what are your thoughts on this email from them ??


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## herptrader (Jul 15, 2008)

I don't think Carly has a clue.

She is right about one thing. I think she is an idiot!


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## Hetty (Jul 15, 2008)

That is exactly the sort of email I would expect from them. They stand to lose a lot of money if this is blocked, and by the tone of her letter she looks rather worried.

I'm with herptrader, I think she's an idiot


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## thepythonpit (Jul 15, 2008)

theres link to the 3 papers shes talking about but there disclaimer says i cant share them with others .. heres the diclaimer



Savannah Cats Australia - confidential communication.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email and any file attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify us. You must destroy the original transmission and its contents. Before opening or using attachments, check them for viruses and defects. The contents of this email and its attachments may become scrambled, truncated or altered in transmission. Please notify us of any anomalies. Our liability is limited to resupplying the email and attached files or the cost of having them resupplied.

it makes me laugh , hahaha , come and get me carly


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## Dave (Jul 15, 2008)

Sorry if this has been said/shown or if this is offtopic can someone post a picture of one of these cats? I'm sorry if this is offtopic/already shown. I'm about to sign it anyway.


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 15, 2008)

An interesting read also:

www.bigcatrescue.org/cats/wild/hybrids.htm

Bloody scary methinks


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 15, 2008)

Another interesting little segment on ABC Radio National...Savannah cats and other exotic pets

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/stories/2008/2283251.htm

Well worth the listen, especially what Dr.Bob Donelly has to say


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## Noongato (Jul 15, 2008)

So whats happend with all this, are the savannahs allowed in aust or not? Or is it too early to ask yet.


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## thepythonpit (Jul 15, 2008)

going by the three papers in the email theres no stoping them .
thay have done all that the law requiers and its only a matter of time until there avaiable here in australia


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## alex_c (Jul 15, 2008)

The petition supporting the import of them only has 468 signature's quite a few from oversea's so I highly doubt they will be given the go ahead  and the caliber of people supporting them isn't exactly great either they have no good argument's at all so far.


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## Noongato (Jul 15, 2008)

I supported it. If it doesnt happen o well, thats 10grand i get to keep huh.


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## DanTheMan (Jul 15, 2008)

Bredlislave said:


> Another interesting little segment on ABC Radio National...Savannah cats and other exotic pets
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/australiatalks/stories/2008/2283251.htm
> 
> Well worth the listen, especially what Dr.Bob Donelly has to say



Watched that video

The servals are beautiful animals and dont need to be cross bread so people can have one that pretty much looks like a normal cat, just a little bigger IMO


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## thepythonpit (Jul 15, 2008)

you would be a fool to think that petitions are going to stop these monster from coming in to the counrty 
for or against , all the main work was done years ago , these cat arn't new , and there ready for shipment to austraila any day now..


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## Dipcdame (Jul 15, 2008)

Let 'em in, all of them, as many as you like......................BUT...............................only under the condition that EVERY animal imported is NEUTERED.......................... wonder how many would be imported under that law?????? It's the only way it could work really........................but even then................................hmm....................

Oh, and Dan the Man.....they would be cross bred for the cheaper market that desperately wants one that looks like the real thing for a lesser price.. there'll always be one or two twits that would do it fo rthe money!!!! And think of the market for stolen ones, same as the expensive dogs now. It would all go pear-shaped, no matter how pure the intentions at the outset.


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## RedEyeGirl (Jul 15, 2008)

signed i believe this is a very stupid idea


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## Dipcdame (Jul 15, 2008)

SIGNED..... with the link sent to my address book. Good luck, let's hope this stupidity isn't allowed to happen before it gets out of hand.


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## bundy_zigg (Jul 15, 2008)

i understand that letting them in to Australia is a problem, but seriously if you all put your minds to changing our laws so that no one other than registered breeders can have intact cats or dog and that they have to have enclosures(NO out doors for cats in aus any more) and that to violate these laws would have serious punishment! that would help our country. Where i live there are people with anything up to 10 cats(that all roam) that to me is the crime. QLD says we are not allowed to have ferrets but heck they will let you have as many cats as you want these problems go back many - many years stopping one breed isnt going to fix it!


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## thepythonpit (Jul 15, 2008)

good but unfortuatly we should have been up in arms about it years ago,
its true theres no stoping it now .
were a few years to late .
the cat is now classed as domestic , so theres no stoping it


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## thepythonpit (Jul 15, 2008)

bundy_zigg said:


> i understand that letting them in to Australia is a problem, but seriously if you all put your minds to changing our laws so that no one other than registered breeders can have intact cats or dog and that they have to have enclosures(NO out doors for cats in aus any more) and that to violate these laws would have serious punishment! that would help our country. Where i live there are people with anything up to 10 cats(that all roam) that to me is the crime. QLD says we are not allowed to have ferrets but heck they will let you have as many cats as you want these problems go back many - many years stopping one breed isnt going to fix it!


 
easy , all you need is a few posuim traps and the number of free roaming cats in your street 
would be almost eliimanated...


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## bundy_zigg (Jul 15, 2008)

when animals make a mistake they normally get eaten, when humans make a mistake we ruin ecosystems, and we are well on our way to the title of earth destroyers


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## Noongato (Jul 15, 2008)

Actually im thinking of setting up a possum trap around the rabbit hutch to catch that blasted tomcat, then i thought it be fair if i dump it in the after-hours cages at the pound. See how much of a responsible owner they are when they have to pay $200 to get it back, bwahahahaha


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## bundy_zigg (Jul 15, 2008)

thepythonpit said:


> easy , all you need is a few posuim traps and the number of free roaming cats in your street
> would be almost eliimanated...


soooooooooo true, i love cats - its the irresponsible people who do it id like to have trapped and put down haha. Cats would never have been this bigger problem had we used our brains in the first place


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## bundy_zigg (Jul 15, 2008)

take this act of stupidity for example - 
Our cat Crash came from the pound, hes a big fat Russian blue. He was surrounded to the R.S.P.C.A because the little kids kept hitting him on the head, so the mother being brainy and all thought it better to get rid of him that teach her bratty snotty nosed little turds to not hit animals. No dout they got something else and that poor animal had to suffer as well. Crash would not come out from under our bed for 2 weeks and has only just(after a year) started to trust us - needles to say he does not like kids


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## robmoore (Jul 15, 2008)

...


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## robmoore (Jul 15, 2008)

*Potentially the worst of all the feral animals to arrive in Australia*

We've signed aswell but perhaps people wanna sign ours!

We've started one aswell at:

http://www.snakerescue.com.au

I've 'signed' both petitions.

From the information available, it would seem that Savannah Cats could be more damaging to our native birds, animals and reptiles than the many feral animals already loose in our bushland! 

robmoore


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## andyscott (Jul 15, 2008)

Signed it.


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## braddq (Jul 16, 2008)

Signed. As if we want them we already have a problem with feral cats and foxes not another predatorial cat (is predatorial even a word oh well)


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## Sdaji (Jul 16, 2008)

I just found this thread today. I very rarely sign any petitions, mostly because they rarely do anything, but I signed this one. I'm signer #8420.

I am astounded that we have a government which could even begin to consider such an insane thing! These hybrids have the potential to revert back to being almost identical to pure Servals over several generations, which is quite possible if they escape. I'm amazed that we have such a ridiculously useless government, I'm lost for words.


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## BenReyn (Jul 16, 2008)

signed..my brother!


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## Dipcdame (Jul 16, 2008)

Bundy Zigg, you are obviously an avid cat lover, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, heck, I love animals, full stop, cats included. I have two of myown, both desexed, both spend a lot of their time indoors, but what you have said in your posts here only adds to the arguement FOR signing the petition, and keeping these bigger cats out. You cite the damage done by the current domestic cat population, can you imagine the degree of harm that would be done by BIGGER cats, who would be able to take down BIGGER prey, and so extend the number and types of native animals being killed by cats?

Your posts are an excellent case for signing!!!


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## Dipcdame (Jul 16, 2008)

Oh, and to the ones who sat it's all too late, and futile to attempt to stop it, let me cite a little story I once read, shortened version, about a man walking along a beach which was strewn with Starfish, millions of the things spread as far as the eye could see. In the distance, he could see a person on the waters edge throwing something into the water. As he came closer, he saw it was a man, picking up starfish, one by one, and tossing them out to sea. "What are you doing?" He asked. 
The man doing the throwing paused his activity for a moment, "I'm saving these starfish."
"But there's far too many here to save, you can't possibly hope to save even 1 per cent of whats here, you can't possibly make a difference?"
The other guy threw the starfish he had held in his hand and watched as it dropped into the water out of sight:
"I'ts made a difference for that one." he replied.

Now there's food for though


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## Wild~Touch (Jul 16, 2008)

Bredlislave said:


> An interesting read also:
> 
> www.bigcatrescue.org/cats/wild/hybrids.htm
> 
> Bloody scary methinks



This information will help anyone "undecided" on this issue.

What happens to these poor hybrid creatures when their affluent owners cannot cope with their "wild" behavior

Ego and one upmanship is the only purpose for hybrid cats

I could say why don't the admirers of African servals and other big cats visit the Zoos where these animals are kept and appreciate the pure bred animals for what they are "natures wild cats"


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## Sdaji (Jul 16, 2008)

Dipcdame said:


> Oh, and to the ones who sat it's all too late, and futile to attempt to stop it, let me cite a little story I once read, shortened version, about a man walking along a beach which was strewn with Starfish, millions of the things spread as far as the eye could see. In the distance, he could see a person on the waters edge throwing something into the water. As he came closer, he saw it was a man, picking up starfish, one by one, and tossing them out to sea. "What are you doing?" He asked.
> The man doing the throwing paused his activity for a moment, "I'm saving these starfish."
> "But there's far too many here to save, you can't possibly hope to save even 1 per cent of whats here, you can't possibly make a difference?"
> The other guy threw the starfish he had held in his hand and watched as it dropped into the water out of sight:
> ...



That's nice, but this petition is a digital thing; it's either going to work or it's going to fail. It's not an analog situation where a bit more support is going to do a bit more good. The equivalent to the starfish situation would be going out and shooting feral cats and foxes. You'd be doing nothing of significance, but you'd be doing something slightly useful.


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## ScorpionKing (Jul 16, 2008)

Signed and sent to many friends and family

Well done tooninoz... love your work...


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## Veredus (Jul 16, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> That's nice, but this petition is a digital thing; it's either going to work or it's going to fail. It's not an analog situation where a bit more support is going to do a bit more good. The equivalent to the starfish situation would be going out and shooting feral cats and foxes. You'd be doing nothing of significance, but you'd be doing something slightly useful.


 
Could make a bigger difference by shooting the people importing the cats methinks....


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## MDPython (Jul 16, 2008)

Veredus said:


> Could make a bigger difference by shooting the people importing the cats methinks....



Im with you Veredus :lol: SIGNED!!!


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## Sdaji (Jul 16, 2008)

Veredus said:


> Could make a bigger difference by shooting the people importing the cats methinks....



Yes, that would be effective, but you'd have to be willing to make a martyr of yourself, rather than just sign a petition and boast about it in a forum thread


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## tooninoz (Jul 16, 2008)

Have been meaning to update this.
I spoke to Tony Peacock from the Invasive Animals Research Cntr last week, and his suggestion was to collate the data from the petition and put that in with the Draft Submission.
That way, our voices are a little more difficult to ignore. Well, as opposed to simply binning an email with a link.
He is taking care of that side of things, meaning I am free to sit back and deal with the threats of violence, being accused of "cat-hating", having my business torched (though it isnt my business?!) and a sly suggestion that I could be sued for "spreading misinfomation".... :lol:
As soon as I hear something concrete regarding the outcome of the petition/submission, I'll post it up.
cheers, toon


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## bundy_zigg (Jul 16, 2008)

Dipcdame said:


> Bundy Zigg, you are obviously an avid cat lover, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, heck, I love animals, full stop, cats included. I have two of myown, both desexed, both spend a lot of their time indoors, but what you have said in your posts here only adds to the arguement FOR signing the petition, and keeping these bigger cats out. You cite the damage done by the current domestic cat population, can you imagine the degree of harm that would be done by BIGGER cats, who would be able to take down BIGGER prey, and so extend the number and types of native animals being killed by cats?
> 
> Your posts are an excellent case for signing!!!


 
Well lets start with YES I AM AN AVID CAT LOVER, but I also know the damage they do, so i say keep them out! by the way your cats should not be allowed out doors at all, maybe you should do your part to save some wildlife.


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## antaresia_boy (Jul 16, 2008)

signed, great idea. doubt it will make a difference, but i really do hope it does.

Jamie


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## herptrader (Jul 16, 2008)

I quizzed Tony Peacock as to when we will find out anything concrete. To summarize his response (rather than quote him without permission:



The closing date for submissions is tomorrow (July 17)
He guess it will take them about a week to go through the submissions
The scientific risk models indicate an extreme level of risk, a strong indicator that these animals will be banned from importation.
So I am hanging out for an announcement from Peter Garrett on a slow news day in a week or so.


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## herptrader (Jul 16, 2008)

I might add that I submitted my own submission directly to Peter Garrett before the review was set up.


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## Dipcdame (Jul 16, 2008)

ummmmmmmmmmmmm. bundy, the cats i have are well fed, well cared for, get their time outdoors, but are mainly indoors, which is why my house is full of cat fur where my daughter can't visit without siffering, and my house stinks with the cat trays I clean out three times a day.................................. they do NOT impact on local wildlife

Oh ................... and they are the SMALLER breed!!!!! not what is about to be imported. *The biggest impact my cats have had are three pigeons............... neither of the two of them stray - they have no need*


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## bundy_zigg (Jul 17, 2008)

Dipcdame said:


> ummmmmmmmmmmmm. bundy, the cats i have are well fed, well cared for, get their time outdoors, but are mainly indoors, which is why my house is full of cat fur where my daughter can't visit without siffering, and my house stinks with the cat trays I clean out three times a day.................................. they do NOT impact on local wildlife
> 
> Oh ................... and they are the SMALLER breed!!!!! not what is about to be imported. *The biggest impact my cats have had are three pigeons............... neither of the two of them stray - they have no need*


 
I'm sorry but your pretty naive if you think just because your cats are well fed they aren't going to kill anything, they are one of the many animals in the world that kill for practice and the sheer joy of it. So like i said they ARE killing thing you just think they are not! I'm not sure what you do for kitty litter because ours never stink and the fur left from ours is vacuumed, our house is No different to a non - cat home except that we have 2 cats. 
And what you think because they are a SMALLER breed!!!!! they cant kill, maybe you should do some reading about cats, they are killers well fed or starved!! My cats are totally indoors and extremely well fed(my vet can vouch for that) but they will still kill(not eat) jap geckos that happen to come down to low, not to mention when i feed my beardie mt black cat goes nuts trying to kill the woodies so please don't try and say your cats are the only ones in the whole that don't kill! the only out door time they should have is in a cat aviary, thats what responsible owners do
thanks for your time!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## herptrader (Jul 17, 2008)

*Savannah cat submission*

I thought I would share the submission to the environmental assessment of the Savannah cats from the Invasive Animals Cooperative Research Centre which Tony Peacock has just distributed:



> Thanks for your interest in the Savannah Cat issue.
> 
> Today is the closing date for comments on the DEWHA environmental assessment.
> 
> ...


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## Sdaji (Jul 17, 2008)

Brilliant  It sounds like they actually did consult a geneticist. Thank goodness.


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## herptrader (Jul 17, 2008)

The full submission makes a good read. It is a mix of common sense and good science!



Sdaji said:


> Brilliant  It sounds like they actually did consult a geneticist. Thank goodness.


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## JJS. (Jul 17, 2008)

bundy-zigg is right. 
Dipcdame, you are oblivious. Your cat is different...

What i find strange is people letting their cat loose if they really care for it. If they genuinely cared about their cat (without even thinking about the negative impact on the environment) they would keep them inside and have an outdoor aviary or run. The dangers posed to cats are huge, cars, people, etc. If you don't want your cat dead, do what's best for it and our wildlife. If not, don't complain if it's shot or hit by a car.
I would love to set traps and hand them into shelters to teach owners a lesson to stop this carelessness.


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## tooninoz (Jul 17, 2008)

The petition itself has been closed, the info sent off to the intended recipients.
Thanks to all that signed, (and supported it), and the hopeful outcome.
cheers, toon


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## tooninoz (Jul 17, 2008)

By the way, can mods lock this thread to prevent further discussion?
The petition has run its course, has been submitted, and this should be the end of the line.
cheers, toon


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## richardsc (Jul 18, 2008)

pfffffft u lot,not signed,there already here anyways,but funny how u are all so well meaning about exotic animals coming into australia and the negative affects on our wildlife,wheres the petition to rid this country of all the import gtps,yep its non existant,sure they dont knock off native reptiles like a cat,but theres disease issues,dont blame the cats,its not there fault they have irresponsible owners,heck may as well ban horses,they cause erosion,dogs to,they kill native wild life and even the odd person,lol


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