# scale-less corn snakes.....



## FusionMorelia (Feb 1, 2011)

ok, 
i just finished reading the new S&T mag and these corn snakes.....
i dunno about these, the face with a scale here and there looks like its diseased
for those that haven't seen them 









whats peoples opinions of these animals, 
personally i dont like them they look nasty....


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## Snakeluvver2 (Feb 1, 2011)

Cool, but gross.


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## ShaunMorelia (Feb 1, 2011)

I personally like the looks of them in the pictures.
Untill I see something scale-less in the flesh, I don't know if I would own one.


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## Torah (Feb 1, 2011)

I kinda like them too.... they're definately different ! n unusual... I like different !


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## thals (Feb 1, 2011)

Personally I love them! I think they look unreal but am also a huge fan of the standard corns.


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## saximus (Feb 1, 2011)

I've always thought scaleless snakes looked weird. I guess they would feel pretty amazing too


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## James_Scott (Feb 1, 2011)

You've gotta live the colours! Without the interuption of scales you get brighter colours, so the future of these snakes will be very interesting.


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## Jay84 (Feb 1, 2011)

WOW ! i think they look amazing... i would love to own one!


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## AshMan (Feb 1, 2011)

it was only a matter of time lol. i moved over from england in october and in england the most common pet snake is corn snakes. you can walk in to any pet shop and see hundreds of diffrent morphs of these guys. seriously HUNDREDS. they have made just about every possible colour mutation possible.


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## Jay84 (Feb 1, 2011)

AshMan said:


> it was only a matter of time lol. i moved over from england in october and in england the most common pet snake is corn snakes. you can walk in to any pet shop and see hundreds of diffrent morphs of these guys. seriously HUNDREDS. they have made just about every possible colour mutation possible.



I used to love seeing all the new morphs of corn snakes and leopard geckos in the pet shops in the UK..... AMAZING!


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## D3pro (Feb 1, 2011)

Not just corns that have this morph...


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## Snakeluvver2 (Feb 1, 2011)

Everything bar the death adder looks like it's about to die to me :S


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## Braidotti (Feb 1, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Not just corns that have this morph...



The snake in the second pic, just looks wrong.


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## Torah (Feb 1, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> The snake in the second pic, just looks wrong.


 
agreed !


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## D3pro (Feb 1, 2011)

mmm... all that bonus skin


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## W.T.BUY (Feb 1, 2011)

They look great as well as having the shed issues which would make them less of a threat to native gear.


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## Trench (Feb 1, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Not just corns that have this morph...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jay84 (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh i think that wrinkly one looks so cute hahahaha


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## ShaneBlack (Feb 1, 2011)

Their all rubbish in my opinion, but the majority will love them.


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## RedEyeGirl (Feb 1, 2011)

lol its a saggy baggy snake! :lol:

But yes i think that it is just unatural and gross!


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## FusionMorelia (Feb 1, 2011)

what sort of health issues do scale less herps have?


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## shea92 (Feb 1, 2011)

Scaleless snakes can't be fed live rats or mice incase they get bitten, as they have no protection from scales


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## Darkhorse (Feb 1, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> The snake in the second pic, just looks wrong.


 Yeah... very sus!!!


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## shellfisch (Feb 1, 2011)

shea92 said:


> Scaleless snakes can't be fed live rats or mice incase they get bitten, as they have no protection from scales



No snake should be fed live rats or mice, for the same reason


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## Cold-B-Hearts (Feb 1, 2011)

Yep a few speicies are scaless i watch snakebytestv on youtube and they show em abit aswell


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## Jungles (Feb 1, 2011)

hahahahaha


Oxydechis said:


> Their all rubbish in my opinion, but the majority will love them.


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## Gusbus (Feb 1, 2011)

im not to sure about scaleless yet, could grow on me but a bit on the errrr side atm, this months s&t was good but


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## lgotje (Feb 27, 2011)

i like the scaleless snakeys there cute (interesting but ugly )


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## giglamesh (Mar 1, 2011)

Trench said:


> Not just corns that have this morph...



lol looks like one of those inside out cats


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## hypochondroac (Mar 1, 2011)

D3pro said:


> mmm... all that bonus skin


 
Hahaha.


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## hugsta (Mar 1, 2011)

I think you will find that scaless animals need to be seen in the flesh to be appreciated. I was sceptical about them as well until I saw a scaless death adder and was amazed at how awesome it was.


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## viridis (Mar 2, 2011)

I think the scale less adders are crap. I saw them in the flesh for the first time roughly 7 years ago and still think they are rubbish.

Shane hit the nail on the head I think. The old saying rings true here ; One mans trash is another mans treasure!


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

viridis said:


> I think the scale less adders are crap. I saw them in the flesh for the first time roughly 7 years ago and still think they are rubbish.
> 
> Shane hit the nail on the head I think. The old saying rings true here ; One mans trash is another mans treasure!



That last part is too true... I think the scaleless adders are absolutely drop-dead stunners! 

Re corn snakes, I love the scaleless look, but less the odd remaining scales. There are scaleless mutations of texas rat snakes, probably others too.


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

What do scaleless snakes feel like? I imagine not many people handle their death adders but with corns etc. I'm imagining something like a smooth gecko?


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

saximus said:


> What do scaleless snakes feel like? I imagine not many people handle their death adders but with corns etc. I'm imagining something like a smooth gecko?



Like a bag of loose skin? Lol. Maybe like a gecko that has lost a bit of weight?

I'd almost go so far as to get my ven licence to get some of those adders, whether I could touch them or not


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## hugsta (Mar 2, 2011)

viridis said:


> I think the scale less adders are crap. I saw them in the flesh for the first time roughly 7 years ago and still think they are rubbish.
> 
> Shane hit the nail on the head I think. The old saying rings true here ; One mans trash is another mans treasure!


 
Lmao. Go back into your cave of narrowmindedness. Fair enough if you don't like them, but there is no need to craap on like a 2yr old.
That old saying is true and sometimes ppl don't realise the treasures they had till it is too late.


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## pythons73 (Mar 2, 2011)

Scales or scaleless we ALL have our different opionions,personally IMO snakes are meant to have scales,so why breed them without any.They dont appeal to me in the slightest,apparently the Yanks love the scaleless corns and Brian paid a fortune for some pairs in which he has breed for a few seasons now.They are a newish craze and you;ld be amazed on how many people like them.


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## hugsta (Mar 2, 2011)

pythons73 said:


> Scales or scaleless we ALL have our different opionions,personally IMO snakes are meant to have scales,so why breed them without any.They dont appeal to me in the slightest,apparently the Yanks love the scaleless corns and Brian paid a fortune for some pairs in which he has breed for a few seasons now.They are a newish craze and you;ld be amazed on how many people like them.


 
Exactly pythons73, we all have different opinions on everything, it is what makes this world so great. However I cannot understand the need call things crap and rubbish, fair enough if you don't like them, then say so in a not so offensive way, like, I really don't like the scaless adders, have seen them and they don't really do anything for me. Not that hard really. It is like watching a TV show and then complaining to the station how much you hate it.:? I mean, ffs, change the channel if you don't like it.


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## nathancl (Mar 2, 2011)

all i can think of is fashion when i see scaleless herps. good use for mutants! 

i like them


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## fugawi (Mar 2, 2011)

310 Million years ago the first reptiles left the water and evolved scales to protect them from the elements and to hold in moisture. In the last couple of years, people have taken a mutation that would not have survived the wild and tried to perfect it. I have to ask about the reptiles immune system that has been evolving for 310 million years to be protected by tough scales and not porous skin. I've also got to ask about wear on the skin under the snake and whether they can get a proper grip for movement without gripping scales.
On saying that I think they look like a cat with no fur....not for me but each to their own.
Things like these always remind me of a line from Jurassic Park....Just because we CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD.


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## Dannyboi (Mar 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> 310 Million years ago the first reptiles left the water and evolved scales to protect them from the elements and to hold in moisture. In the last couple of years, people have taken a mutation that would not have survived the wild and tried to perfect it. I have to ask about the reptiles immune system that has been evolving for 310 million years to be protected by tough scales and not porous skin. I've also got to ask about wear on the skin under the snake and whether they can get a proper grip for movement without gripping scales.
> On saying that I think they look like a cat with no fur....not for me but each to their own.
> Things like these always remind me of a line from Jurassic Park....Just because we CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD.


 They have Ventral scales. The corn snakes do at least


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## fugawi (Mar 2, 2011)

Yeah, I did see that.....Those do. What I'm saying is just a general question. We don't really know all the repercussions yet. This is not like changing direction of stripes or changing colouration, This is a major physical change. 310 million years of immune system evolution based on having scales to protect it and suddenly....no scales but has their immune system changed to adapt to a scaless body?........Just food for thought.)


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

I wouldn't have thought it was a big issue considering the antiseptic conditions captive snakes are kept in when compared to the wild


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## hugsta (Mar 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> 310 Million years ago the first reptiles left the water and evolved scales to protect them from the elements and to hold in moisture. In the last couple of years, people have taken a mutation that would not have survived the wild and tried to perfect it. I have to ask about the reptiles immune system that has been evolving for 310 million years to be protected by tough scales and not porous skin. I've also got to ask about wear on the skin under the snake and whether they can get a proper grip for movement without gripping scales.
> On saying that I think they look like a cat with no fur....not for me but each to their own.
> Things like these always remind me of a line from Jurassic Park....Just because we CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD.


 
Well, if you look at it like that, you could say the same for most color morphs. How long do you think an albino would last in the wild against predators. An albino childrens hunting at night would look like a neon sign to an owl saying 'EAT ME". lol


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## fugawi (Mar 2, 2011)

Unless these herps are being kept in a sterile plastic bubble it is not that sterile. But what I'm saying is what is their resistance to diseases?, Is it painful for them to move without ventral scales or do they have trouble moving since their movement is based on moving and gripping with their ventral scales? Do they over/underheat? Animals without scales or fur can sweat when hot, reptiles can't. We have created an animal that evolution hasn't perfected. This is pretty much a new animal to science. I think they need to be studied a bit more before they are mass produced for the market. I personally wouldn't get one due to too many unknowns ..........and I think they look like drowned rats.....ugly....but thats me. People also like hairless cats but each to their own.


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

I don't think we should deliberately breed animals that are in physical pain because of their physiology. 

That said, I find the 'argument from unnaturalness' completely arbitrary. The 'wild/natural form' is the way things ended up, the least likely to die in that environment at that time, and as such is not prescribed, but just a random result. Our personal tastes can lead us to prefer these naturally developped forms, but that's all they are, tastes.

Scaleless corn snakes have been around for years, and the adders have too, right? So there should be data on any health problems.


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## fugawi (Mar 2, 2011)

Albino crocs, snakes and skinks have all survived to adulthood in the wild on lots of occasions. This is different...WE created these as far as I know, not nature. A random mutation.

I'm not against unnatural, but have these been studied by the pet industry or the scientific community? The pet ind would say they're ok don't worry about it...sell, sell, sell.


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

How did we create them? They weren't genetically engineered. Just like the other morphs they popped out one day and were line bred. Exactly the same as albinos


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## fugawi (Mar 2, 2011)

Leucistic, hypermelanistic, hypomelanistic etc have been line bred from wild caught animals, scaleless herps were line bred from captive bred animals, they obviously don't survive the wild. So what kills them? Viruses, hot, cold, predation?


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## Red-Ink (Mar 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> So what kills them? Viruses, hot, cold, predation?



Probably the same thing that would kill a scaled animal......


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## D3pro (Mar 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Leucistic, hypermelanistic, hypomelanistic etc have been line bred from wild caught animals, scaleless herps were line bred from captive bred animals, they obviously don't survive the wild. So what kills them? Viruses, hot, cold, predation?


 
Has there been a research on this?
Viruses? what does that have to do with scales? 
Hot and Cold is not really an issue because they regulate like any other snake.
And don't you think a lucy will have more trouble with predation then a scaleless?

All boils down to opinion. Mine is that this morph does well is captivity like any other snake, and it's up to the buyer to decide whether they like it or not.
Thats all they are... a captive bred animal.


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## AshMan (Mar 2, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Probably the same thing that would kill a scaled animal......



im sure they are more sensitive to problems with temp ect. scales must have some heat retention compared to just normal skin?


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## Jay84 (Mar 2, 2011)

Why would it be harder for them to self regulate? What about geckos with no scales?? They don't have any issues?

Why would they be more susceptible to viruses and disease? They still have a barrier to prevent these things entering their body, whether it be scales or skin.

They seem to have been around for years, any reports on health issues as yet?

As said before, we didn't 'create' them. They are a natural occurence, not engineered.


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

Take too much time to remove all those scales manually....


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## syeph8 (Mar 2, 2011)

Jannico said:


> Everything bar the death adder looks like it's about to die to me :S


 
i think the ball python looks healthy enough, but the rattlesnake (is it a rattlesnake?) looks dead already.


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

I thought it was an albino adder...if that's the one you're referring to


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

Whichever it was, I agree that I didn't like the look of that particular one  But the aussie adders are hot.


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

I agree they are beautiful. All Adders are in my opinion. I want one so bad but "top 10 venomous snakes" and "fastest striker in Australia" keep popping into my head


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## Dannyboi (Mar 2, 2011)

All I think of is the Pivoting fangs that I hear about from snake catchers.


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## krefft (Mar 2, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Leucistic, hypermelanistic, hypomelanistic etc have been line bred from wild caught animals, scaleless herps were line bred from captive bred animals, they obviously don't survive the wild. So what kills them? Viruses, hot, cold, predation?



The above quote makes no sense at all.
The first scaleless adders were produced by 2 wild caught animals. I kept them for many years and there is no major difference to normal adders.
They are all just random mutations that have been given more of a chance than they would get in the wild... I'd put my money on the scaleless surviving in the wild better than most of the ones mentioned in the above quote.
The adders , and most others have ventral scales and move just like every other snake.

The adder in my signature is Harvey. One side scales, the other without...You just can't make this stuff up!


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

Krefft thank you for bringing an intelligent argument to this. I thought I'd heard that the original breeders were wild caught but couldn't find any proof


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## killimike (Mar 2, 2011)

krefft said:


> The first scaleless adders were produced by 2 wild caught animals.



That's fascinating to know, thanks for that krefft.


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## Jay84 (Mar 2, 2011)

Thats amazing Krefft. So from your experience they are not suffering, or low immune systems, or in pain etc etc.

Do you still keep them?


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## krefft (Mar 2, 2011)

They lack scales on the top of their body, that's it. They are much more robust and healthier than the Jags and Albino's I've kept.
They feel just like a smooth gecko.
I told a mate that I'd sell them if I got a stupid offer
Then I got a stupid offer
Then I sold them


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## saximus (Mar 2, 2011)

Lol who can argue with that. 
You say you felt them. How often do people actually handle their adders? I'd be so scared


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## Jay84 (Mar 2, 2011)

lol.... fair enough. If i had the money i would have given you a stupid offer too!

Hopefully it won't be too long till they are avail in better numbers.


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## syeph8 (Mar 2, 2011)

saximus said:


> I thought it was an albino adder...if that's the one you're referring to


 
pretty sure it's a rattlesnake... maybe a close relative? im not quite sure anymore... anyone know exactly what it is?


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## viridis (Mar 3, 2011)

I was simply referring to your comment on how you need to see them in the flesh before you appreciate them. We are all intitled to opinions big boy so keep your pants on.

The few I know of have all experienced shedding issues and need to be assisted for each shed. Do this sound like a thriving animal to you???????

Crap on like a 2 year old......get your hand off it mate. You may well need both hands to shed these adders!

Going back into my cave of narrowmindedness now Huggie................................


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## hugsta (Mar 3, 2011)

viridis said:


> I was simply referring to your comment on how you need to see them in the flesh before you appreciate them. We are all intitled to opinions big boy so keep your pants on.
> 
> The few I know of have all experienced shedding issues and need to be assisted for each shed. Do this sound like a thriving animal to you???????
> 
> ...


 
There was no mention of their possible health issues Nick..!!!! Only their appearence.

I agree, we all have our opinion and some have the maturity to share it without offeding other peoples opinions.

Don't forget your torch.....


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## viridis (Mar 3, 2011)

Fair enough, I should have stated that the early animals DID have problems. 

I should have said that I would not like to keep them as they can have health issues.

I am heading back to my animal health concerned cave now. 

I have my torch but do you have the paper towel to wipe up????????????


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## hugsta (Mar 3, 2011)

I too have had animals that I haven't enjoyed keeping for numerous reasons, but I don't call them crap etc because I don't like them. It's personal choice.

I now understand why you wouldn't keep them and fair enough, I wouldn't fancy having to assist an adder everytime it sloughed as well.

Sorry you got the wrong cave, I will send some towel your way.


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