# Gay Discrimination



## shell477 (Apr 2, 2011)

Hey everyone. 

Im about to start research on a paper and the aim is to examine the link between a group that is discriminated against in Australia and their issues. There is a bit more to it but thats the core of it. 

I am sincerely trying not to phrase anything here that is offensive or politically incorrect. 

I have chosen to examine to discrimination against gay people, and I want to know issues that affect you. Particularly, laws that discriminate against you. How these issues affect you in all ways. 

Any input would be great!

Feel free to PM if you like. 

Shell


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## Dannyboi (Apr 2, 2011)

What about reptile keepers being discriminated against by the government


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## shell477 (Apr 2, 2011)

Haha are we? I dont think my teacher would really see the relevance or impact that has on society as a whole...


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## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 2, 2011)

Pretty much any minority is discriminated in some sense. 

Some stuff that you can look up are the first house assistance laws and see if that correlates with same sex couples. 
You should look at the legal age for same sex sex as well and compare that to the legal hetrosexual sex age. 

Even making a comparison to other cultures and countries where gays are completely accepted would be good and looking at the laws their.


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## drinkies (Apr 2, 2011)

thought for a moment you were posting about gay snakes.but every person is discriminated against for something.imo it's just the frequency of the event that causes the outrage.


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## spotlight (Apr 2, 2011)

seriously the gay issue is not as bad as it was when i was younger, just look at tv today its the norm.
and look at most the movie stars sooner or latter they come out.
i worked with a gay guy for around 5yrs i was ok with it, i really think religion is the main factor with discrimination of any race.


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## Dannyboi (Apr 2, 2011)

My best mate was just thrown out of home by his dad for being gay. I think there is still discrimination.


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## Defective (Apr 2, 2011)

theres the whole gay marriage and same sex couples adopting issues.


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## spotlight (Apr 2, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> My best mate was just thrown out of home by his dad for being gay. I think there is still discrimination.



yes the mate i worked with was also thrown out by his dad but his dad came around in the end if you really think about it as a father it would be hard ( your son needs to carry your name on and on but it takes a female to help this along).
your mate will be fine!


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## Dannyboi (Apr 2, 2011)

Yeah I very much doubt his dad will come round. He will be fine because he is now with his accepting half brother and in a nurturing home. It has gotten to the point in their father son relationship that my mate has come to the conclusion that he wants nothing to do with his father. (They have had other issues).


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## MathewB (Apr 2, 2011)

My auntie says "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."


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## Daryl_H (Apr 2, 2011)

why do people have to actively tell you there gay (come out) i dont feel the need to tell people i like females


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## MathewB (Apr 2, 2011)

I think they tell people so they can get it off their chest. Liking girls (As a male) is normal so you don't tell anyone, it's socially accepted whereas being gay not as widely accepted


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## spotlight (Apr 2, 2011)

Daryl_H said:


> why do people have to actively tell you there gay (come out) i dont feel the need to tell people i like females


 they dont know it but most of the time we already know they are gay anyway (its not that hard to tell!!)


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## Daryl_H (Apr 3, 2011)

spotlight said:


> personally i think being gay would be a pain in the butt !!


 

ha ha classic



MathewB said:


> I think they tell people so they can get it off their chest. Liking girls (As a male) is normal so you don't tell anyone, it's socially accepted whereas being gay not as widely accepted




i understand this (as i am a bow hunter but i dont have feel thje need to tell my grandmar that i do this ) seems like preeching to me


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## MathewB (Apr 3, 2011)

Bow hunter?


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## Dannyboi (Apr 3, 2011)

Daryl_H said:


> why do people have to actively tell you there gay (come out) i dont feel the need to tell people i like females


 Now thats the basis the American army is using.


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## Daryl_H (Apr 3, 2011)

MathewB said:


> Bow hunter?



kill little fuzzy animals with a compound bow



Dannyboi said:


> Now thats the basis the American army is using.




well its a good point


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## MathewB (Apr 3, 2011)

Ahh ok, what do you shoot?


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## Jay84 (Apr 3, 2011)

Some ridiculous comments in this thread.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 3, 2011)

Agreed with you there Jay.

The problem with not telling people if you are gay (and it's not like you announce it to everyone, don't be ridiculous) is that they're going to find out at some point anyway, and there can be some pretty strong adverse reactions to that. Unfortunately it's just the world we live in


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## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 3, 2011)

Daryl_H said:


> why do people have to actively tell you there gay (come out) i dont feel the need to tell people i like females


 
Because unlike annoucing that you are "straight", "coming out" can have some serious negative effects on your life. Now imagine that you have a secret that you know may alienate you from those you care about, including your parents, siblings, etc. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who does not know if the secret they keep will make their family, in the blink of an eye, cast them out like rubbish. Do you grasp how difficult life would be for someone in this situation? It would be intolerable for most to live with that kind of uncertainty. 



MathewB said:


> My auntie says "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."


 
This is, in a nutshell, the source of discrimination against gays. Christianity is not exactly the bastion of tolerance it claims to be.



Dannyboi said:


> My best mate was just thrown out of home by his dad for being gay. I think there is still discrimination.


 
How awful. This is what I mean by the above. 



spotlight said:


> seriously the gay issue is not as bad as it was when i was younger, just look at tv today its the norm.
> and look at most the movie stars sooner or latter they come out.
> i worked with a gay guy for around 5yrs i was ok with it, i really think religion is the main factor with discrimination of any race.


 
Correct. It stems from a belief by the faithful (all "faithful" believe this in one form or another, in any religion.) that they are God's "Chosen". It is this mechanism that allows one person or culture to marginalise another, by placing the "non-faithful" in a position that, in the eyes of the "faithful", renders them unfit or unworthy of even basic human consideration. This is what allowed Christian conquerors to subjugate indiginous populations around the world, cultures throughout history to keep other human beings as slaves, and countless other atrocities throughout human history. In their "God's" eyes, they were doing nothing wrong. To the "faithful" of the current zeitgeist, this includes demonizing homosexuals.


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## Snakewoman (Apr 3, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> This is, in a nutshell, the source of discrimination against gays. Christianity is not exactly the bastion of tolerance it claims to be.



Very true, me and my Christian friends hate they way gays are treated by ignorant church people. Most of them don't personally know any people who are gay, and because of that they don't think of how these people feel. I firmly believe that putting yourself in other people's shoes is something that needs to be done more often, there are far too many selfish people who will only think of things from their perspective. I have a family member who may be gay, he's not sure yet, but anyone who gives him crap will wish they never opened their ignorant little mouth! Since when is it anyone else's business who somebody sleeps with? Its time people learned to keep their noses out of other people's personal lives. I don't personally know anyone who has been kicked out of home because they're gay, but I believe that people who throw their own child out for that reason don't deserve to be parents anyway!


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## grimbeny (Apr 3, 2011)

I think it is very easy to become complacant in thinking everything is better now. It is the norm for gay people to be accepted and this is great but there are still alot of individuals who go through almost literal hell when they come out. The problem is, it takes only a single person to turn a coming out experience into a hellish battle of self worth and dignity. The suicide rates for homoseuxal youths is still much much higher than for heterosexuals.

There is also another problem and that is non-real discrimination which is the building up of ideas in a persons head that if they came out they would be discriminated against. Although less easy to measure this problem is equally bad for the individual, and it is common place for a comming out experience to be an anti-climax when people are easy going with it. 

I dont know what the answer to the problem is, because we are talking about a small number of people who have retained built in old school opinions that would be very difficult to change. The only realistic solution i could propose is education. I think many of the problems in Australia will decrease as people become more accepting of homosexuality but unfortunatly I think it is unlikely that predjudices will be whiped out.


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## AirCooled (Apr 3, 2011)

"I refuse to recognize the terms hetero-, bi-, and homo-sexual. Everybody has exactly the same sexual needs. People are just sexual, the prefix is immaterial." (Steven Patrick Morrissey:The Smiths) 
While I am 100% straight,I drink beer,shoot guns and have driven some really cool cars,I have a gay sister,and also gay male friends.I have not caught the gay 'disease' even for a second,one male friend is even HIV positive.None of them have ever asked me on a date or invited me to watch after dark.The ignorant will, through their frustration and fear, criticize people, sometimes in the most hateful terms in an attempt to feel better about the void that they can never fill within themselves.People seemed to be stuck in a judgement loop that dates back 1,000 of years.


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## gillsy (Apr 3, 2011)

Jannico said:


> You should look at the legal age for same sex sex as well and compare that to the legal hetrosexual sex age.
> 
> Even making a comparison to other cultures and countries where gays are completely accepted would be good and looking at the laws their.


 
They are both the same, have been for a few years



MathewB said:


> My auntie says "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."


 
Yeah well that doesn't say much considering how many "god fearing" people have started crusades and executions, and the death toll that has happened as a result.

And my depression that left instantly the moment I walked away from the church, religion promotes love yet it had also caused the most death of any single man made reason.

I have never knowingly been descriminated against for being gay, but I live in Sydney city, I couldn't say the same if I lived in the country. I personally disagree to gay marriage, as per the dictionary it's between a man and a woman, civil unions etc no problems against.

I also wouldn't bring a child into a gay relationship, but appose no one that wants to in a loving and supporting relationship.


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

Look at transgender issues.
Whilst some may say that homosexuality is much more accepted to day (which I agree with, to an extent),
I don't believe transgender issues have progressed much..


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## Tornacade (Apr 3, 2011)

spotlight said:


> they dont know it but most of the time we already know they are gay anyway (its not that hard to tell!!)
> 
> personally i think being gay would be a pain in the butt !!


literally... LOL


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## Jay84 (Apr 3, 2011)

spotlight said:


> seriously the gay issue is not as bad as it was when i was younger, just look at tv today its the norm.
> .


 So because the issue is not as bad as when you were younger we should all become complacent and not fight for equal rights? 

How would you feel if you were in a loving relationship for years, your partner is terminally ill and the hospital is only allowing immediate family in to see them?? This happened to a friend and he had to lie and say he was the sick persons brother!

Imagine then that your partner died, then you were not entitled to their superannuation......... or other effects? Is this right?!?!?!




Daryl_H said:


> why do people have to actively tell you there gay (come out) i dont feel the need to tell people i like females



Why do people feel the need to tell me i am gay??? Trust me, i had heard it from colleagues, fellow students, strangers, idiots in the street driving past in their car throwing bottles out the window at me! BEOFRE I PLUCKED UP THE COURAGE TO TELL ANY OF MY FAMILY, I HAD BEEN TOLD I WAS GAY THOUSANDS OF TIMES. In a demeaning, discriminatory or violent way.



spotlight said:


> they dont know it but most of the time we already know they are gay anyway (its not that hard to tell!!)


 



For those of you who think it is all a joke, or that gays are equal, or that we don't still face issues in life because of arrogant small minded people, *take a look at this.

Please, watch it all the way through!
*
YouTube - Joel Burns tells gay teens "it gets better" http://www.joelburns.com


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## MathewB (Apr 3, 2011)

Well not every Christian religion has gone to war e.g. Jehovahs Witnesses. Being gay isn't a natural thing, that's why we have the different sexual organs to each other, but it is a personal opinion whether or not being gay is right. It is also someones personal choice to be gay and we shouldn't judge people for that


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## notechistiger (Apr 3, 2011)

MathewB said:


> It is also someones personal choice to be gay



Sorry, but you lost credibility right there.


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## grimbeny (Apr 3, 2011)

Not natural by what measure?


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## Jay84 (Apr 3, 2011)

MathewB said:


> Well not every Christian religion has gone to war e.g. Jehovahs Witnesses. Being gay isn't a natural thing, that's why we have the different sexual organs to each other, but it is a personal opinion whether or not being gay is right. It is also someones personal choice to be gay and we shouldn't judge people for that


 
I was bought up a Jehovah's Witness. And yes, they are one of the few religions who do not involve themselves in politics and war. But it is still not acceptable to be gay, but in saying that, they do not incite hatred or violence towards them.

BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE! Being a homphobe is!

Why would someone choose to live the hard life? Being gay is not a choice, why would i have chosen to be gay? Please tell me this?

*Please also watch this video.*

YouTube - When Did You Choose to Be Straight?


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## grimbeny (Apr 3, 2011)

Mathew I think you are a little bit young to understand this problem, if you want to continue in the discussion I think you should get your parents approval and advice.


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## spotlight (Apr 3, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> So because the issue is not as bad as when you were younger we should all become complacent and not fight for equal rights?
> 
> How would you feel if you were in a loving relationship for years, your partner is terminally ill and the hospital is only allowing immediate family in to see them?? This happened to a friend and he had to lie and say he was the sick persons brother!
> 
> ...


 
sorry to make a joke out of it but my ex wife is gay now so i cant help my self to treat it as a joke and by putting the shoe on the other foot her relationship is not treated as one by the government so my child support payments stay the same ( and im not the only one out there with this problem trust me!).
and if you are truely gay im sure just like my gay friend you joke about the same issues and tell even sicker gay jokes to your friends 
i also have coloured friends who tell the best coloured jokes 
(so is it because im not gay that this is a issue?)


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

MathewB said:


> Well not every Christian religion has gone to war e.g. Jehovahs Witnesses. Being gay isn't a natural thing, that's why we have the different sexual organs to each other, but it is a personal opinion whether or not being gay is right. It is also someones personal choice to be gay and we shouldn't judge people for that


 
No, that's known as the naturalistic fallacy.

"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles; therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings; accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles; therefore my lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten; therefore we eat pork all year round. And they who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best." ~ Voltaire

Obviously, the above is satirical.


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## Jay84 (Apr 3, 2011)

Making a joke out of it may not be a huge issue, the issue is via the internet your joke may be taken out of context by some. I am very comfortable in myself and jokes like this do not affect me mentally anymore. But for a young gay person, or someone who is not comfortable in themselves could read your comment and this could offend them or hurt them. That is the issue.

I do feel for you that your wife left you. My second cousin got married, had kids, always knew he was gay. One day he could not continue living the lie and left his wife. This is caused by unacceptance! Your wife, my cousin etc etc.... they got married and lived the normal life becuase it was expected of them.. It is awful, but what else could they do. Yes it is kinda selfish on their part,but surely it is clear how and why it happened?

I am pleased to say that my cousin and his ex wife and kids are the best of friends, luckily at the end of the day it is a happy ending for them. I understand it is not the same for most. If there is equality and acceptance then these kind of stories would not exist, or to a lesser extent. As gay people wouldn't feel forced to marry and have kids to please society.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> My best mate was just thrown out of home by his dad for being gay. I think there is still discrimination.


 
LOL my dad told me when I was really young that if I was gay, he'd disown me!



gillsy said:


> They are both the same, have been for a few years.


 
Are you sure? I though legal age of consent for.... The backdoor.... Was 18, and regular consentual sex is 16.


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> LOL my dad told me when I was really young that if I was gay, he'd disown me!


 
.. And people wonder why I'm so misanthropic. It seems most people I come across are homophobic to varying degrees, it's utterly insane. Since my parents have known I'm trans, they don't really want anything to do with me. But hey, I think anyone with an attitude like that isn't worth knowing.

Not to mention there's still a deeply pervasive and subversive form of misogyny still around.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 3, 2011)

kawasaki, technically that is correct, but there is a difference between that and a legal age for same sex sexual relations.

The whole thrown out of home thing is what I'm worried about... all my friends know, and I was pleased that I never copped any flak for it at school, but my family is fairly religious.


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## spotlight (Apr 3, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Making a joke out of it may not be a huge issue, the issue is via the internet your joke may be taken out of context by some. I am very comfortable in myself and jokes like this do not affect me mentally anymore. But for a young gay person, or someone who is not comfortable in themselves could read your comment and this could offend them or hurt them. That is the issue.
> 
> I do feel for you that your wife left you. My second cousin got married, had kids, always knew he was gay. One day he could not continue living the lie and left his wife. This is caused by unacceptance! Your wife, my cousin etc etc.... they got married and lived the normal life becuase it was expected of them.. It is awful, but what else could they do. Yes it is kinda selfish on their part,but surely it is clear how and why it happened?
> 
> I am pleased to say that my cousin and his ex wife and kids are the best of friends, luckily at the end of the day it is a happy ending for them. I understand it is not the same for most. If there is equality and acceptance then these kind of stories would not exist, or to a lesser extent. As gay people wouldn't feel forced to marry and have kids to please society.


 ok im sorry if it gets taken that way over the net but like i said i have a gay friend who jokes all the time so i dont think twice about it.
as far as the ex wife thing the only thing i hold against her is that i can no longer watch a adult movie staring two females LOL (sorry but that is funny!!)


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

MathewB said:


> Well not every Christian religion has gone to war e.g. Jehovahs Witnesses. Being gay isn't a natural thing, that's why we have the different sexual organs to each other, but it is a personal opinion whether or not being gay is right. It is also someones personal choice to be gay and we shouldn't judge people for that



Your sexual tendencies have to do with your DNA and the glands that secrete sex hormones. There's often a chemical imbalance, leading one to have no choice regarding the sex they are attracted to. Much like a woman being trapped inside a mans body.

Believe it or not, my dad isn't intolerable of gays. He's just freaked out at the idea of his own being gay. To be honest, I don't blame him. I wouldn't want my son to grow up in a tough world and have it tougher than it should be, plus I'd like grandchildren, I guess.

What is the deal with bisexual? Seems it's somewhat of trendy thing, but from a biological standpoint I can't understand one person being attracted to both sexes. Not that I'm opposed to it,  haha.


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## Snowman (Apr 3, 2011)

pfft who cares...


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

HydroGoat said:


> kawasaki, technically that is correct, but there is a difference between that and a legal age for same sex sexual relations.
> 
> The whole thrown out of home thing is what I'm worried about... all my friends know, and I was pleased that I never copped any flak for it at school, but my family is fairly religious.


 
I've hidden things from my parents that I was SURE I'd cop a huge amount of flack for, my fathers an ex homicide det. Sgt. and a real hardass. I've done some stupid things in my 19 years... But every time the truth has come out (and it does) he is always more understanding than I give him credit for.

You are still their son, you have always been that way, albeit in secret, so you should point out the fact that they accepted you before, now you're the same person, just instilling trust in them.

It will more than likely be a shock... But I'm sure they'd accept it if it meant keeping the relationship with their son healthy.


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## mje772003 (Apr 3, 2011)

Well If it wasn't for right wing religious extremists the world would be a more tolerable place being gay is not a choice from experience. All we ask for is to be treated and given the same rights On the subject of coming out I had no choice in the matter my parents outed me i didn't want to come out at the time but over 10 yrs on I am proud of who i am but i don't rub it in anyones faces and i don't act femine like most people stereo type i'm just an every day guy that likes other guys and i don't think anyone has the right to judge others.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

If you didn't come out, how did your parents know to out you, if you don't act overly feminine? Just curious.


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## harley0402 (Apr 3, 2011)

I dont have anything wrong with being gay or not but the only thing i can not stand is when you have a guy who is gay and they act insanely and stupidly girly, you know what i mean ? and also lesbians who act like men. I mean if you like girls and you are a girl, you dont need to act like a man. I know a few girls that like girls and they look and act like dirty old truckers or something. It is quite off putting.......


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## mje772003 (Apr 3, 2011)

i was in year 11 or 12 in school and my folks were renovating the house and moved some furniture into my room at the time i had a muscle mag and a mag called outrage they had a look through and when i came home they confronted me they didn't like it at first but they came around.


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

harley0402 said:


> I dont have anything wrong with being gay or not but the only thing i can not stand is when you have a guy who is gay and they act insanely and stupidly girly, you know what i mean ? and also lesbians who act like men. I mean if you like girls and you are a girl, you dont need to act like a man. I know a few girls that like girls and they look and act like dirty old truckers or something. It is quite off putting.......



This is the misogyny I'm talking about. What's wrong with feminine men who act girly? Why is acting girly a wrong thing?
And what is wrong with masculine lesbians?

I guess as time goes on, research in areas such as psychology, neuroscience and so forth will shed light on this. But, in my opinion, I think that sexuality and gender expression are largely correlated. That is, gender expression is a way of mate selection. In the 'normal' straight population, a female brain & gender expression is congruent with a female sexual orientation, and vice-versa.

Thus, gay men have a female wired brain as far as sexual orientation goes, and their brain is wired for more feminine gender expression. This doesn't hold true all the time, and exists to varying degrees, of course.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

SYNeR said:


> This is the misogyny I'm talking about..


 
Misogyny is the hatred of women, I don't see how she displayed even the feintest dislike for women. I agree with everything else you said, though.



> I know a few girls that like girls and they look and act like dirty old truckers or something. It is quite off putting....



Funniest quote in this thread.


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## harley0402 (Apr 3, 2011)

SYNeR said:


> This is the misogyny I'm talking about. What's wrong with feminine men who act girly? Why is acting girly a wrong thing?
> And what is wrong with masculine lesbians?
> 
> I guess as time goes on, research in areas such as psychology, neuroscience and so forth will shed light on this. But, in my opinion, I think that sexuality and gender expression are largely correlated. That is, gender expression is a way of mate selection. In the 'normal' straight population, a female brain & gender expression is congruent with a female sexual orientation, and vice-versa.
> ...


 
Maybe you should re read my post buddy, there is a difference between a masculine woman and a lesbian who acts like a pig and there is a difference between a faminine man and a gay guy acting like an idiot. Gay or lesbiane people do not need to over exaggerate their gayness for the lack of a better word. This is why people see them as different because of the way they act. A man can be gay but doesnt have to resort to acting like a 14 year old school girl. I know a few people who are gay but you wouldnt know it just by looking at them, yet at the same time they dont hide the fact either, they just dont put on a show and i respect them for being civilised human beings


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## grimbeny (Apr 3, 2011)

harley0402 said:


> I know a few people who are gay but you wouldnt know it just by looking at them, yet at the same time they dont hide the fact either, they just dont put on a show and i respect them for being civilised human beings



Out of choice or fear of retrobution? And before you answer this, I would like to point out that you cant.


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## harley0402 (Apr 3, 2011)

neither, becauce there is no reason to belittle themselves just to show the world they are gay. they are confortable with their sexuallity and it is no one elses business. The point i am trying to make is that a homosexual person does not need to act the way most do to get there sexuallity across to the world. If they are confortable with it, why do they try and get noticed so much ???

....and i just did


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## grimbeny (Apr 3, 2011)

Maybe they are doing it for none of those reasons. Most people know that you cant act overly feminen and be taken seriously, especially if you are a male. Almost all of the rich and powerful woman dress, cut their hair and have mannerisms that are mostly male. It is impossible to determine if any particular homosexual is acting in a particular way by choice or to leave a particular impression. From experience I think most gay men who act feminen are more confident and have less to prove than those who act like 'blokes'.


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Misogyny is the hatred of women, I don't see how she displayed even the feintest dislike for women. I agree with everything else you said, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Funniest quote in this thread.



Because gay men are scolded for acting feminine. This is based on a deep-seated misogyny in society. If men act like
women, they're treated as if they've stooped to a new low and ridiculed. Instead, men are expected to hold on to their
male/masculine privilege.


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## Southern_Forest_Drag (Apr 3, 2011)

I think its the males who are 40+ who seem to have a problem with gays they havn't moved with the times, i can tell you most of my mates females/males dont really care if someone bats for the same team, infact i have numerous mates who are gay/bisexual.


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## abnrmal91 (Apr 3, 2011)

I don't understand why people have such a problem with someone being gay. Why is it that because someone has a different sexual preference to what is seen as mainstream, they then aren't allowed to happy with the person they love. What does it have to do with anyone else. 
I think everyone should be allowed to be happy with who they want to be.


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

harley0402 said:


> Maybe you should re read my post buddy, there is a difference between a masculine woman and a lesbian who acts like a pig and there is a difference between a faminine man and a gay guy acting like an idiot. Gay or lesbiane people do not need to over exaggerate their gayness for the lack of a better word. This is why people see them as different because of the way they act. A man can be gay but doesnt have to resort to acting like a 14 year old school girl. I know a few people who are gay but you wouldnt know it just by looking at them, yet at the same time they dont hide the fact either, they just dont put on a show and i respect them for being civilised human beings


 
Who are you to say gender expression should be suppressed? It's an extremely judgmental thing to say that feminine behaviour is 'over the top' or vice-versa. I find the behaviour of straight people (which is rammed down our throats daily) to be over the top and frankly quite brainwashing.

Perhaps that's just how they are? How does overt gender expression make someone uncivilised? What a ridiculous claim.
Are you suggesting we should all adhere to some normative definition of gender expression and make people suppress who they are?
Behavioural modification?



grimbeny said:


> Maybe they are doing it for none of those reasons. Most people know that you cant act overly feminen and be taken seriously, especially if you are a male. Almost all of the rich and powerful woman dress, cut their hair and have mannerisms that are mostly male. It is impossible to determine if any particular homosexual is acting in a particular way by choice or to leave a particular impression. From experience I think most gay men who act feminen are more confident and have less to prove than those who act like 'blokes'.


 
And this is what I was saying before. Feminine men aren't taken seriously. Rich & powerful women are in the same boat unless they gravitate towards masculinity. Femininity is just not taken seriously (for no discernible reason I can think of)

This is why I said there's a deep-seated misogyny in society.


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## harley0402 (Apr 3, 2011)

SYNeR said:


> Who are you to say gender expression should be suppressed? It's an extremely judgmental thing to say that feminine behaviour is 'over the top' or vice-versa. I find the behaviour of straight people (which is rammed down our throats daily) to be over the top and frankly quite brainwashing.
> 
> Perhaps that's just how they are? How does overt gender expression make someone uncivilised? What a ridiculous claim.
> Are you suggesting we should all adhere to some normative definition of gender expression and make people suppress who they are?
> Behavioural modification?



You are completly missing the point and i didnt say anything of the sort, if you are just going to put words in everybodies mouths then this thread is going to go on forever....... pull your head in and understand what is being said.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

SYNeR said:


> I find the behaviour of straight people (which is rammed down our throats daily) to be over the top and frankly quite brainwashing..


 
Then you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing her of. Hypocrisy...? I don't see many straight people being openly straight to the point it is in your face. There's nothing wrong with holding hands and giving a kiss in public, whether you're gay, or straight. It is the gay people that go about it in a very obvious way (not that I care, just making a point that you seem to miss).

To say that you are misanthropic is just as bad as anything else, because you hate the majority of everything.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

newtolovingsnake said:


> i am going to judge you on the fact that u posted this on a forum that you have joined today. that worries me.



+1

Also, why would any partner of yours feel the need to openly discuss the nitty gritties of what gets you going to your parents? Gay or straight, your parents don't need to know that...


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## mje772003 (Apr 3, 2011)

I hate the labels and clique's and stereo typing that the media and society expects us to form to


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Then you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing her of. Hypocrisy...? I don't see many straight people being openly straight to the point it is in your face. There's nothing wrong with holding hands and giving a kiss in public, whether you're gay, or straight. It is the gay people that go about it in a very obvious way (not that I care, just making a point that you seem to miss).
> 
> To say that you are misanthropic is just as bad as anything else, because you hate the majority of everything.


 
Hypocrisy? No. I'm pointing out how people seem to be obsessed with ridiculing and demeaning overtly feminine, gay men when they are a minority and straight culture is jammed down our throats by society (peers, the media, its everywhere if you open your eyes). I'm pointing out that whilst people may think gay men are often over the top, they fail to realise that normative behaviour constantly grips society and that any behaviour(s) that deviates should not be up for ridicule or other criticism.

So if gay people do something that's 'obvious' it's inappropriate, but for straight people to do something just as obvious, that's okay?
If you're going to make arguments, back them up with examples at least.

I have my reasons for misanthropy. The majority of the population appear to be quite brainless and bigoted. I base this on various sorts of statistics (when it comes to politics, gay marriage, general social norms) not to mention studying a LOT of Psychology. I'm a misanthrope, but I come to this position through critical thinking, reasoning and observation. This thread definitely contributes towards that.



harley0402 said:


> You are completly missing the point and i didnt say anything of the sort, if you are just going to put words in everybodies mouths then this thread is going to go on forever....... pull your head in and understand what is being said.


 
If you think I'm resorting to straw-man arguments, then perhaps state your position better? You have failed to say anything except to criticise flamboyantly 'obvious' gay men and women who cross the gender binary.



harley0402 said:


> I mean if you like girls and you are a girl, you dont need to act like a man. I know a few girls that like girls and they look and act like dirty old truckers or something. It is quite off putting.......


 

You don't need to act like a man? If you're a girl and you like girls, who's to say you *should* act like a girl?
Your argumentation skills are severely lacking. You clearly don't see the distinction present in Hume's is/ought
problem. It's off putting why? Because their behaviour is not representative of the normative social norms you've
grown up with and come to expect?


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## AirCooled (Apr 3, 2011)

As adults when we _live and let live_, we don't need to criticize, judge, or condemn others. We have no need to control them or try and make them conform to our way of thinking. We let others live their own lives and we live ours.Why do people feel they have criticize, judge, or condemn others on race, thinking, sexuality,views,cars,etc.This could be a endless list that could go on till the end of time, mostly driven by people's own issues/agenda's and always be mostly pointless.Compared to the bigger picture of humanity as an evolved race and we wonder why the aliens won't visit or show up to advance our civilization.


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## SYNeR (Apr 3, 2011)

To (hopefully) get back on topic, here's a good example of GLBT discrimination:

It is currently only possible for transgender folk (male to female) to obtain Androcur (an anti-androgen that blocks testosterone) through obtaining an authority script. This is only possible by ending up on a list with the Therapeutic Goods Administration that labels you as a 'sexual deviant'. However, men are able to obtain Androcur for prostate cancer, and women may be prescribed it for 'excess androgenisation' (such as excessive facial/body hair) WITHOUT ending up on the same list.


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## shell477 (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks Syner 

A few people stayed on topic, I have been observing and waiting for answers 
Not that all of the issues presented are not relevant...


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## grimbeny (Apr 3, 2011)

Out of interest Shell, what level of study is this for?


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## toximac (Apr 3, 2011)

Hey Shell477, I can list a few, some are obvious - Religious pity / discrimination in social scene. Not being allowed to give blood to red cross. Not being recognised as a couple under ''gov. law'' & homosexual lobbies marching for gay marriage which gives religious people a right to criticise. Also being a blockage for those who want a fair deal (as in, pay tax, just want same benefits as hetro couples who get married having no kids). At workplace / new people you meet every time - you deal with scrutiny & have to make up for it by explaining yourself in a diff. way thats suitable to their ears or lie about yourself to get ahead. Being socially casted into the 'gay community', which brings on 'sexual incendo's' with everything & promotes stereotype & division, more so at times than heterosexual society does. Discrimination in jobs such as childcare relating u to peds, or school teachers having to keep all social matters prvt, as well as sports.
To the other people I understand other minorities have similar problems, but thats another paper so stick to another chat topic.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

SYNeR said:


> So if gay people do something that's 'obvious' it's inappropriate, but for straight people to do something just as obvious, that's okay?
> If you're going to make arguments, back them up with examples at least.



You talk about heterosexuality being jammed down peoples throats, I can agree with this in terms of MEDIA, but not in every day life where you see straight couples walking down the street. My point was that some gay couples go to extreme lengths to fly the flag. I would be annoyed if I saw a straight couple doing everything they could, bar stripping their clothes off and going for it, to convey that they were straight when it isn't necessary. It is obvious that a man and a woman are straight if they are walking down the street holding hands and give each other a smooch, it is just as obvious when a gay couple does it. There is no need to go "over the top" as you said (which not many people know, but OTT has no place in any argument where someone is discussing this topic, as it is war terminology) whether you're gay, or straight.


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## wiz-fiz (Apr 3, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> So because the issue is not as bad as when you were younger we should all become complacent and not fight for equal rights?
> 
> How would you feel if you were in a loving relationship for years, your partner is terminally ill and the hospital is only allowing immediate family in to see them?? This happened to a friend and he had to lie and say he was the sick persons brother!
> 
> ...



that sucks! i can't believe peop0le actually behave like that.
I think one of the main issues is that if you stick up for a gay person, you may also get discriminated and put through hell, at school at least, don't know how gays really are treated in a work and social situation.


Will


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## shell477 (Apr 3, 2011)

grimbeny, im doing a diploma of welfare work. only new to it though


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## Bearded_Lady (Apr 3, 2011)

I believe there is a law in NSW which allows private schools to expel students on the basis of being gay. They dont have to be flaunting their sexuality or anything of that sort.. being homosexual is enough. 

Its really quite upsetting to see some of the immature, uneducated and misinformed attitudes which seem to spring to light every time the topic of GLBT issues comes up.


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## waruikazi (Apr 3, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> What is the deal with bisexual? Seems it's somewhat of trendy thing, but from a biological standpoint I can't understand one person being attracted to both sexes. Not that I'm opposed to it,  haha.



Not even bisexuals understand it lol!

Sexuality is a weird topic. I think there is a significant proportion of the population who are not entirely one way or the other and are attracted to men and women at varying degrees. I think the biological reason (if there is one) may simply be because people have sex for pleasure, not reproduction. At the moment it just happens to be socially acceptable for women to experiment in same sex relationships, but not yet for men.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 3, 2011)

Anyone experienced homosexual behaviour with their snakes? (no pun intended )


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## Stuart (Apr 3, 2011)

I work with a gay chap. He was the best man at my wedding. He is a normal guy as far as anyone is concerned. He doesn't act like a typical gay person where everything is overly dramatic or where he needs to be noticed cause he is gay. 

I knew another gay guy once who was the complete opposite. Must be that case of two sides to every story things again.


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## ozziepythons (Apr 3, 2011)

Some of the people I have come across in life that turned out to be gay have really surprised me, and I'm not that easily surprised and my gaydar is in working order. There was a beautiful girl at uni I was friends with who caught the eye of every straight guy, she had a flawless figure and all. She turned out (after much struggling with it) to be a lesbian, which to this day still amazes me. Again at uni I knew this one big, burley lad who was also in the army and masculine in every way. I even asked him if he was homophobic once when the issue came up. He turned out to be gay!! After many more encounters and experiences just like these ones, I have come to the conclusion that in fact the masculine women and feminine men that form the visual gay frontline of non-heterosexuality are the minority, and in fact the vast majority of actual gay people are invisible, choosing to conform and appear hetero and even living married lives in hiding. Why they are too pained to live their lives authentic to their nature I think has much to do with discrimination, which is just cruel. The suffering imposed by repression must be crushing, it must break some people eventually.


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## mje772003 (Apr 3, 2011)

toximac said:


> Hey Shell477, I can list a few, some are obvious - Religious pity / discrimination in social scene. Not being allowed to give blood to red cross. Not being recognised as a couple under ''gov. law'' & homosexual lobbies marching for gay marriage which gives religious people a right to criticise. Also being a blockage for those who want a fair deal (as in, pay tax, just want same benefits as hetro couples who get married having no kids). At workplace / new people you meet every time - you deal with scrutiny & have to make up for it by explaining yourself in a diff. way thats suitable to their ears or lie about yourself to get ahead. Being socially casted into the 'gay community', which brings on 'sexual incendo's' with everything & promotes stereotype & division, more so at times than heterosexual society does. Discrimination in jobs such as childcare relating u to peds, or school teachers having to keep all social matters prvt, as well as sports.
> To the other people I understand other minorities have similar problems, but thats another paper so stick to another chat topic.


 


Jay84 said:


> So because the issue is not as bad as when you were younger we should all become complacent and not fight for equal rights?
> 
> How would you feel if you were in a loving relationship for years, your partner is terminally ill and the hospital is only allowing immediate family in to see them?? This happened to a friend and he had to lie and say he was the sick persons brother!
> 
> ...


 
Jay, I have been through this and have lost a partner through leukemia in the end and straight people just don't understand how hard it is to find that special person in the population and now have no one in 02 this happened to me and have never been able to find someone special since.

I would like to also give back into the community at times and donate blood but by law i'm not allowed to. But now i'm just a stronger person on my own and am used to it.

Straight people just don't get it its not a choice and out of the population its a small community and not much as they say " fish in the sea" to have that special stable person in your life.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 3, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Not even bisexuals understand it lol!
> 
> Sexuality is a weird topic. I think there is a significant proportion of the population who are not entirely one way or the other and are attracted to men and women at varying degrees. I think the biological reason (if there is one) may simply be because people have sex for pleasure, not reproduction. At the moment it just happens to be socially acceptable for women to experiment in same sex relationships, but not yet for men.


 
Well, I'm actually bi, not gay, and I find that I'm strongly attracted to men sexually, but look to women for a relationship. I find the idea of sex with women repulsive...

Yeah weird one here


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## Tiliqua (Apr 3, 2011)

Great post Toximac, you seem to cover most things there. Jay84 the first video I've seen before and is very inspiring, the second video is brilliant!


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## Delete-me (Apr 3, 2011)

Daryl_H said:


> why do people have to actively tell you there gay (come out) i dont feel the need to tell people i like females


 
I "come out" so as to give me a chance to tell the people I love personally and give them a chance to not only to understand what it means to be gay (we don't all have aids, anal sex and take drugs!) but also gave them a chance to ask me personal questions about me, being gay, and what it means to them! It's also healthy for the individual to get it of her/her chest as repressing such emotion is not good for ones health.



kawasakirider said:


> Anyone experienced homosexual behaviour with their snakes? (no pun intended )


 
Kawasakirider there a book by Joan Roughgarden called Evolution's Rainbow
I suggest you look it up


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## Tornacade (Apr 4, 2011)

HydroGoat said:


> Well, I'm actually bi, not gay, and I find that I'm strongly attracted to men sexually, but look to women for a relationship. I find the idea of sex with women repulsive...
> 
> Yeah weird one here


 
I actually feel the same way although I dont understand why, I do find it rather strange


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## Braidotti (Apr 4, 2011)

Why can`t a gay person give blood ?


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## Dannyboi (Apr 4, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> Why can`t a gay person give blood ?


 
According to the Red Cross they all have AIDS.....


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## shellfisch (Apr 4, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> Why can`t a gay person give blood ?


 
In a nutshell? Homophobia....


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## gillsy (Apr 4, 2011)

MathewB said:


> Well not every Christian religion has gone to war e.g. Jehovahs Witnesses. Being gay isn't a natural thing, that's why we have the different sexual organs to each other, but it is a personal opinion whether or not being gay is right. It is also someones personal choice to be gay and we shouldn't judge people for that


 
What a small minded little prat! Being gay is at natural to us as straight is to you.



notechistiger said:


> Sorry, but you lost credibility right there.


 
Do you choose to be straight, go on sleep with another of the same sex. It's your choice to be straight if your ignorant mind set proves right.



SniperCap said:


> I work with a gay chap. He was the best man at my wedding. He is a normal guy as far as anyone is concerned. He doesn't act like a typical gay person where everything is overly dramatic or where he needs to be noticed cause he is gay.
> 
> I knew another gay guy once who was the complete opposite. Must be that case of two sides to every story things again.


 
Saying you like gays, and then saying typical gay person... that in my eyes is as bad as homophobia. what is a typical gay person. There are none, the same way there is no typical straight person. The problem is straight people only see the flamboyant ones ( Just as you would notice a goth walking through a shopping centre) because you don't notice any of the guys that act like every other person that walks down the street. 



Braidotti said:


> Why can`t a gay person give blood ?


 
Because there is a 'higher' risk of HIV transmission in the gay populous. However all blood is screened anyway... there is a court case on about it now.


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## Delete-me (Apr 4, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> Why can`t a gay person give blood ?


 
It's actually because of anal sex
A gay male can give blood if they have not had anal sex within the last year.
Straight males answer this question also and if they have had anal sex with a girl are also excluded from giving blood.

The reasoning behind it is anal sex increases the chance of blood born infections that may result in aids but many other diseases also.
The reality is red cross have to screen and test ALL blood so regourously that if a person whom lied on the questions still gave blood they would still flag the blood as a risk
Also straight couples have just as high a risk of passing on blood born infection as gay couples. It purely is discrimination from legislation that was created in the stone ages when nothing as known about aids


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## waruikazi (Apr 4, 2011)

Snowball2281 said:


> It's actually because of anal sex
> A gay male can give blood if they have not had anal sex within the last year.
> Straight males answer this question also and if they have had anal sex with a girl are also excluded from giving blood.
> 
> ...



I was giving blood regularly until last year when i moved away from the clinics. I remember the question was only for men to answer and it only said same sex sexual intercourse. I don't remember it saying anything about butt sex with women.


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## Braidotti (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks for that everyone. 

Also I didnt think they could ask you if you are gay or not.


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## waruikazi (Apr 4, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> Thanks for that everyone.
> 
> Also I didnt think they could ask you if you are gay or not.



It doesn't ask if you're gay it just asks if you have had same sex relations.


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## gillsy (Apr 4, 2011)

Yep as soon as you say your gay. end of conversation. 

Tattoos come into play as well somewhere.


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## Braidotti (Apr 4, 2011)

Yeah I know you cant give blood if you have had a tattoo within the last 12 months.


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## Jay84 (Apr 4, 2011)

The thing i don't understand is - If their blood test screening process was fool proof, it should not matter where or who the blood has come from!

If their tests are reliable, then why does it matter that the blood may have come from someone who is more high risk? I know i would be asking a few questions if i was one of those people on the receiving end of a transfusion.


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## Flippy (Apr 4, 2011)

In regards to the Red Cross, their screens are not "fool proof"
The concern of the Blood Service is what they call the "window Period" for blood born infections
This is where an infection has been transferred but is not yet detectable.
If that blood is then infused in another person the infection is still present and has the potential to cause issues. It has nothing to do with anal sex, it's targetting male to male sexual relations due to the statistically higher number of homosexual males in the infected population.

Personally I don't agree with ANY form discrimination, however this is purely focusing on facts not people. I understand it can seem like a contradiction but it's exactly the same for tattoos and those who have travelled internationally (which there is a map for). The reasons are for the potential for blood born infections to be carried and not yet detectable.

I would encourage you to visit
Am I eligible to give blood? | Australian Red Cross Blood Service
Check out the fact sheets for more information.


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## moosenoose (Apr 4, 2011)

MathewB said:


> My auntie says "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."


 
But these days Steve is a really, really good mate with Adam  :lol:


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## spotlight (Apr 4, 2011)

MathewB said:


> My auntie says "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."


 
the best thing about adam and eve was their pet snake in the tree


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## dihsmaj (Apr 4, 2011)

What p!sses me off is that a guy in my class dislikes me, so he calls me gay.
I ask him how being homosexual is bad, and he just says it is because men and women are meant to be together so they can reproduce.


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## richard08 (Apr 4, 2011)

Surely that guy knows gay people can have children...

I'm a gay man waiting {with partner}for the birth of our first child. Can't wait.

Prob be a whole other discussion.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 4, 2011)

Blood tests are not fool proof as I found out to my horror when having a blood transfusion after my second son, my blood has a rare Rhesus factor and so there was very little available, I had to wait for it to be flown in to Goulburn hospital from interstate. I was suffering what I thought was chronic fatigue after the birth and went for a check-up only to find out I ad early onset symptoms for Hep C. Tried to take the hospital to court and they basically said that I would never win as the blood testing is considered totally infallible and it wouldn't stand up in court and I would be accused of being a drug user and humiliated and ridiculed. Great. Sorry to hijack, just pointing out the fallibility of blood testing.


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## AirCooled (Apr 4, 2011)

With 100 replies I am curious,after alot of people stating their sexuality,how many members have different views now?Toward others they have dealt with,have on their friends lists,chatted with,etc.Me personally nothing has changed,I live outside the box and accept race,sexuality,religion,etc.Everybody grows up with thousands of choices and information overload,so to me there is no real excuse in most cases for uneducated ideals of life.The biggest joke of all is that alternative sexuality will bring the downfall of population growth and humanity.With nearly 7 billion on this planet I pretty sure a few less people breeding will be a bonus.


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## mje772003 (Apr 4, 2011)

the red cross are a bunch of hipocties they ask for blood donations as levels get low then they have a hide to then segregate particular groups out and tar everyone in that group with the same brush and thats not fair. So when it comes to them asking for money in their national appeal i would rather give it to another charity more accepting of donations whether it be money or blood.


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## werdy (Apr 4, 2011)

who would have thought there is a large number of gay / lesbian / bi and transgender reptile keepers congratulations to those that have came forward to give great imput


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## gillsy (Apr 4, 2011)

werdy said:


> who would have thought there is a large number of gay / lesbian / bi and transgender reptile keepers congratulations to those that have came forward to give great imput


 
I started on this site, everyone came out after I did.... I started it, see it's just cool these days


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## HydroGoat (Apr 4, 2011)

Gillsy, don't be a hipster


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## nathancl (Apr 4, 2011)

gillsy said:


> I started on this site, everyone came out after I did.... I started it, see it's just cool these days


 
gay! lol


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## eipper (Apr 4, 2011)

nath your being a ....well I reckon i'd would be banned.....


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## nathancl (Apr 4, 2011)

eipper said:


> nath your being a ....well I reckon i'd would be banned.....



HAHA! I feel somewhat like a winner! and you should feel like a loser!!


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## Mudimans (Apr 5, 2011)

SniperCap said:


> I work with a gay chap. He was the best man at my wedding. He is a normal guy as far as anyone is concerned. He doesn't act like a typical gay person where everything is overly dramatic or where he needs to be noticed cause he is gay.
> 
> I knew another gay guy once who was the complete opposite. Must be that case of two sides to every story things again.


 
Oh god that sounds terrible!! So when you discover he's gay you realise he's not actually 'normal' like straight people?????????

Why does anyone's personality have to be a direct reflection of their sexuality?? Can't it just be that there's some people you get along with and some you don't. Does it have to be because they're gay and 'act that way' or not? Maybe you just got along with your best man, and you just didn't click with the other guy? There's plenty of straight people that are overly dramatic and in your face!! Sorry, not a direct attack against you, but it's just a topic that really gets to me!!!


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## HydroGoat (Apr 5, 2011)

I know plenty of feminine straight guys, and while I don't know many gay guys (or at least, openly gay guys) () I myself and fairly "normal"

It's a personality thing, not a sexuality thing


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## notechistiger (Apr 5, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Do you choose to be straight, go on sleep with another of the same sex. It's your choice to be straight if your ignorant mind set proves right.



Dunno where that reply came from?


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

The comment, was people choose to be gay. You can't choose your sexuality. It's hardwired in, it's the same as you going I'm going to sleep with a guy today, you find that almost repulsive I do when thinking about sleeping with girls.


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## moosenoose (Apr 5, 2011)

My favorite quote to gay people is: Aren't you too young to be gay?   They seem to like that one


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## Syn2554 (Apr 5, 2011)

Jannico said:


> You should look at the legal age for same sex sex as well and compare that to the legal hetrosexual sex age.


Is there a difference? Cos that's really sick, if there is. I can't believe people, especially officials, see a difference.



moosenoose said:


> My favorite quote to gay people is: Aren't you too young to be gay?   They seem to like that one



I'm _sure_ they do.


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## notechistiger (Apr 5, 2011)

gillsy said:


> The comment, was people choose to be gay. You can't choose your sexuality. It's hardwired in, it's the same as you going I'm going to sleep with a guy today, you find that almost repulsive I do when thinking about sleeping with girls.



Oh. You quoted my comment in between your points and used very targeted language (to make me think you were replying to me). If you actually were, I have no idea where you got that I find gay sex or coupling repulsive. I think quite the opposite actually.


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## Syn2554 (Apr 5, 2011)

gillsy said:


> The comment, was people choose to be gay. You can't choose your sexuality. It's hardwired in, it's the same as you going I'm going to sleep with a guy today, you find that almost repulsive I do when thinking about sleeping with girls.


It had to be said.



Mudimans said:


> Oh god that sounds terrible!! So when you discover he's gay you realise he's not actually 'normal' like straight people?????????
> 
> Why does anyone's personality have to be a direct reflection of their sexuality?? Can't it just be that there's some people you get along with and some you don't. Does it have to be because they're gay and 'act that way' or not? Maybe you just got along with your best man, and you just didn't click with the other guy? There's plenty of straight people that are overly dramatic and in your face!! Sorry, not a direct attack against you, but it's just a topic that really gets to me!!!



Yeah, It got to me, too, though I can see SniperCap didn't mean it to. It's an ignorance thing. Gays are no different to us and even lableing them a group can be discrimination. I think, for future reference, people are people and that's that.



notechistiger said:


> Oh. You quoted my comment in between your points and used very targeted language (to make me think you were replying to me). If you actually were, I have no idea where you got that I find gay sex or coupling repulsive. I think quite the opposite actually.


haha define _'the opposite'_



Dannyboi said:


> Now thats the basis the American army is using.


LOL! People ASSUME you like females, as they ASSUME I like males! You tell them otherwise to correct their assumption! DUH!!


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## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 5, 2011)

There was when I was in grade 11 doing Law at school. Did my ethic assignment on it too.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

It concerns me that a few very young people in this thread have expressed a levell of confusion at their feelings for the same sex, which is quite normal for people going through puberty. Surely adults that have the ability to make sound and informed decisions about their lifestyles, also have a responsibilty to make sure those choices don't negatively impact the lives of impressionable teenagers. By overt displays of homosexuality such as mardi gras ETC, don't you run the risk of compounding that confusion with your attempts at normalising a practice that is still deemed socially taboo by a large section, if not the majority of society.

I personally don't have a problem with homosexuality but I do have a problem with the fact that some members of the gay community have to be so in your face about it, I also don't understand why they have to make a spectacle of it by running events like the mardi gras. Maybe if you all made an attempt to conform to societies norms a little more your sexuality wouldn't be so confronting to some members of society.


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## Dannyboi (Apr 5, 2011)

There is only one thing that gets me about the whole homosexual argument. Fairy Penguins has been made politically incorrect on the chance it may offend the gay community. How stupid is that? Now we have to call them Little blue penguins......... While we are at it lets call actual fairies little winged people. And Fairy Bread sprinkle bread. 
People are entitled to live their life however they chose and I have no problem with it. Be gay be straight doesn't affect me. I am so sick of hearing the homophobes go on about how gay people will ruin the church and how God made AIDS to punish the homos. Its all so wrong. Leave them alone they have done nothing too you.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> It concerns me that a few very young people in this thread have expressed a levell of confusion at their feelings for the same sex, which is quite normal for people going through puberty. Surely adults that have the ability to make sound and informed decisions about their lifestyles, also have a responsibilty to make sure those choices don't negatively impact the lives of impressionable teenagers. How would me being openly gay be a 'negative' impact on the life of a teenager?By overt displays of homosexuality such as mardi gras ETC, don't you run the risk of compounding that confusion with your attempts at normalising (are you saying that homosexuality is not normal?)a practice that is still deemed socially taboo by a large section, if not the majority of society. So, your theory is this. That a young person could be swayed into homosexuality just because they are exposed to it on TV etc? Well ok.... why am i not straight? I have straight parents, who showed their heterosexual affection to each other in front of me. I had NO gay friends growing up. I was not allowed to watch any TV shows where there were gay people on it. Yet..... i am gay. I was not 'influenced' NEGATIVELY into being gay. Yes i was confused when i was young, the confusion is becuase you are made to think it is not NORMAL.
> 
> 
> I personally don't have a problem with homosexuality but I do have a problem with the fact that some members of the gay community have to be so in your face about it, I also don't understand why they have to make a spectacle of it by running events like the mardi gras. Maybe if you all made an attempt to conform to societies norms a little more your sexuality wouldn't be so confronting to some members of society.


I am not what most would consider 'camp' and i am definitely not feminine. But why not celebrate Mardi Gras? Why not celebrate equal rights and how they have progressed in society? I think Mardi Gras is a great celebration. 




Dannyboi said:


> There is only one thing that gets me about the whole homosexual argument. Fairy Penguins has been made politically incorrect on the chance it may offend the gay community. How stupid is that? Now we have to call them Little blue penguins.........


 
I agree with you herer.... this is ridiculous! Sometimes being PC just goes too far.


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay, I agree with 100% what you said, 

If it is shown on TV as being 'normal' it may just save a young person's life from suicide, I had one member of my Mardi Gras team tell me the other night, if she hadn't volunteered she was on the way to committing suicide. I get bombarded with 'Straight' images, yet I wouldnt' wish to be straight for all the money in the world.

By allowing gay images and characters on TV, he has helped many young people who are struggling with the fact they may be gay. Some will experiment and decide it's not for them, some will realise they are gay and some will still try and hide it only have to have depression later in life.

I did have depression when I was younger over being gay, but you know what solved it, walking in a gay bar, and realising this is normal, I'm not alone. So all for having it exposed as much as it is.

And the sooner it becomes the "norm" on tv, the sooner discussions like this need not take place.


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## saximus (Apr 5, 2011)

I agree with Steve, I don't like overtly, in-your-face gay people but I also don't like overtly, in-your-face PEOPLE, whether they be gay, straight or other they all annoy me .
It seems to be slowing becoming more talked about publicly and I think it is being shown as being "normal" more often but the unfortunate thing is the "slowly" part. It is always a difficult and slow process for things like this to change and I really feel sorry for you guys and girls who are still living in a time when bigots of the world feel they should tell you how to conduct personal parts of your lives that have nothing to do with them.
Jay I watched your first video and it actually brought tears to my eyes. It sucks that young people feel there is no other option for them because of something they had no choice/control over


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

I would say that if the majority of society feels homosexuality is not normal then by society standards it isn't. All of our laws, behaviours and belief systems are governed by societies standards, it is the same system that thankfully allows you to challenge these standards and attempt to implement change, any attempt at change will be met with resistance. I can guarantee that should the tide change and being gay were to become the norm there would be die hard straights there to challenge it and they all would cry discrimination.

One of these young people may look at you and think, well that Jay84 is gay, he seems like a cool bloke, he keeps albino Adders and stuff, maybe my thoughts are normal. He then goes and experiments, only to get a rude shock that by societies standards his actions are not considered normal therefore adding to his confiusion. 

Your why am I not straight argument doesn't hold. As humans we are naturally heterosexual, by being gay (whether by choice or genetics) you are breaking the mould not vice versa.

You have every right to celebrate mardi gras and you should exercise that right. I don't like it, it's the same as any other group or individual that takes their beliefs and practices to the extreme, it only alienates them further.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

saximus said:


> Jay I watched your first video and it actually brought tears to my eyes. It sucks that young people feel there is no other option for them because of something they had no choice/control over




That video is amazing and bought tears to my eyes too, not just for feeling sorry for those poor teens who did end their life, but also because it reminded me of the times i almost became like them. A statistic. Another gay teen who committed suicide. I used to constantly think about ways to end my life. I used to drive my car with the stereo blaring, tears streaming down my face, looking at the poles and trees and wanting to just drive into them. I thought this was my only way out.

The thing that saved me, was starting a new job, with some amazing people who i am still friends with today. They were straight girls who showed me i was normal, and i had nothing to be ashamed of. 

I grew up in a religious family. TV shows like ''The Block'' (where they renovate a house) were loved shows in my household. Until the gay couple would appear on the screen then my dad would turn the TV off until their section was over. Any reference to gays and the TV was off.

THIS IS MORE OF A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON A TEEN THAN SHOWING MARDI GRAS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Teens who are brought up with an open mind (whether straight or gay) are more accepting, less judgemental, more mature and definitely less confused and more grounded.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay, By saying what I have said, does not mean I agree with your situation. It sounds like your dad may have been having his own struggle with your homosexuality

The fellas from the Block were good blokes I talked with them personally a fair few times as we used to train in their gym


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Jay, By saying what I have said, does not mean I agree with your situation. It sounds like your dad may have been having his own struggle with your homosexuality This was years before i came out. My dad was just VERY homophobic and made it known. He is a typical bloke. Being a bricklayer etc etc.
> 
> If my parents were more accepting of homosexuality BEFORE i came out, then i am sure i would not have suffered such bad depression. I would have understood what was happening and what i was feeling. Seeing gays on the TV would not have been NEGATIVE TO MY DEVELOPMENT.
> 
> ...


.


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> The fellas from the Block were good blokes I talked with them personally a fair few times as we used to train in their gym


 
They are constantly trying to pick me up, it's very very annoying!


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

gillsy said:


> They are constantly trying to pick me up, it's very very annoying!



Stop blowing your own trumpet lol


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

I will get flamed for this.... 

I don't have a problem with gay people, I don't have a problem with the mardi gras. My mother is (excuse the derogatory term) a fag hag.

I do believe that homosexuality is a chemical inbalance in the brain (when I say inbalance, I don't mean it in a bad way, either) but I also believe in both sides of the nature v. nurture debate. Look at children who have been brought up in an abusive relationship, they slip into the same patterns, look at kids from low socio economic areas that have no proper grounding, they go NOWHERE. I think it's possible if you expose a young child to homosexuality, they could become confused and even experiment at a young age before they develop feelings in any direction. 

Not only could the child become confused, but children are extremely cruel, and if it was known at the childs school that his/her parents were homosexual, I think the kid could be in for a whole school life of ridicule, torment and depression. 

I can't understand how hard it must be for some couples who can't have a child, so I won't pretend to. I can imagine the yearning for a child would be insatiable, but I think many things need to be taken into consideration when same sex couples have children.

I mean no disrespect to any homosexual people.


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## richard08 (Apr 5, 2011)

I have never been to Mardi Gras, YET. Because until REACENTLY, i have never felt very proud to be Gay. Ive always been proud to be alive, AUSTRALIAN and a MAN. I now find shame in the fact that i have never lived with the kind of pride that you have when you have totaly accepted yourself. Which is what the Mardi Gras is all about, isnt it. Celabrating gay history, showing pride for ourselves and others. Starngers standing togther to recognise the stuggle that got us to were we are today. And i would hate to think that if Gay Pride and comunity was supressed, how many of the next genaration would go without positave accepting roll models. Many young gay men and women have no one to turn too. How horible that must feel, But being gay is not what it used to be, we can live openly feel accepted and even have children. When my child is born i hope that will be many many people in his or her life that are positive role models, people to guide, teach respect, and show heart and look out for them. both gay and straight.


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## shellfisch (Apr 5, 2011)

Unfortunately, some kids don't need a reason to bully or pick on other children.
And I can think of worse things than a child being brought up by two parents (regardless of their gender and sexuality) who love and want you.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

LOL they weren't trying to pick me up, at least I don't thin k so.

They must have moved from over here then, maybe a different show, there was two similar ones within a short time. Is one of them a gymnastics instructor?

Kawasaki rider, they are pretty much my thoughts.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I do believe that homosexuality is a chemical inbalance in the brain (when I say inbalance, I don't mean it in a bad way, either) but I also believe in both sides of the nature v. nurture debate. Look at children who have been brought up in an abusive relationship, they slip into the same patterns, look at kids from low socio economic areas that have no proper grounding, they go NOWHERE. I think it's possible if you expose a young child to homosexuality, they could become confused and even experiment at a young age before they develop feelings in any direction.
> But this makes no sense at all. Gay people come from all walks of life. From religious backgrounds, low socio economic, immigrants, etc etc etc. Also, how many times do i have to say i was not exposed to homosexuality as a child or teen?!?!?! Many of us were not. What about the country gays who grew up in tiny towns and had no other gays??
> Not only could the child become confused, but children are extremely cruel, and if it was known at the childs school that his/her parents were homosexual, I think the kid could be in for a whole school life of ridicule, torment and depression.
> This is what has to change though, and it only changes through education and exposure. Things like Mardi Gras shine a light into the gay community. There should be programs at school included in sex ed classes.
> I mean no disrespect to any homosexual people.


.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

Whether homosexuality is by choice or nature or whatever I can never agree that it is acceptable for a gay couple to raise children.


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## grimbeny (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Your why am I not straight argument doesn't hold. As humans we are naturally heterosexual, by being gay (whether by choice or genetics) you are breaking the mould not vice versa.


 
Despite the term "natural" being rather undefined, why do you think this is true? If the rates of homosexuality has been sustained in the population for a long time then surely there is something natural about it. The historic record is littered with evidence of homosexual behaviour dating back thousands of years. I think although homosexuality may not be the behaviour of the mode person the fact that it is widespread and persistent suggests there is a natural reason behind it.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Whether homosexuality is by choice or nature or whatever I can never agree that it is acceptable for a gay couple to raise children.



This could be a whole new thread!


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> Despite the term "natural" being rather undefined, why do you think this is true? If the rates of homosexuality has been sustained in the population for a long time then surely there is something natural about it. The historic record is littered with evidence of homosexual behaviour dating back thousands of years. I think although homosexuality may not be the behaviour of the mode person the fact that it is widespread and persistent suggests there is a natural reason behind it.



I'm no expert in history, but most of what I understand the majority of that homosexual behaviour was outside of existing hetero relationships which are formed and serve the purpose of reproduction this is what I meant by natural we are intended as man and woman for the sole purpose of reproduction of the species, thats not to say that whatever it is that leads to a person being homosexual is unnatural.



Jay84 said:


> This could be a whole new thread!


 
It's one point I will never change my mind on, neither will I bother debating it in another thread, but it's been said


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 5, 2011)

LOL Jay don't bother Bro, the thread wouldbe interesting but closed in a minute because of slander and ignorance.....IMO, I feel IF you have something to worry about ie gay people, you have something to be scared of and thats your own sexuality! I am comfortable with mine after living in Surry Hills as well, for 10 years and working with Gay men as a dancer in my past life, who did try to hit on me, but I replied i'm straight dude and the guys accepted this and played mucked around with me only! Being straight to a gay person is a turn off, correct me if i'm wrong Jay.  
I find alot of gay men are the funniest people I have met, they are fun to be with and a laugh.
I am married with 3 kids and my wife work in the media and also works with gay men & women, again, they are just like you and me...and there's no issues for us as parents knowing gay friends and certainly our kids are brought up to respect all people!
We don't hang out with gays anymore as we are too old and ugly for the pretty people scene now...lol, but as a dad I would feel disappointed that my son was gay, but I wouldn't stop loving him and would get over it i'm sure!!
JMO...  
Remember many male specie in the world want to procreate with as many animals of the speci as possible....including same sex sometimes...not my thing but that's the problem with having balls...  they get you into trouble all the time!!


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

You could have said the same about this thread, but it cotinued on for the most part quite civily


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

So it's ok for a drug addicted mother bring up children, but not for a loving gay couple. I would never bring a child into a gay relationship however have no problems with other couples doing it.

My mother takes foster kids, and I would hands down without a second thought give any of the children to Jay and his boyfriend, before I would give the kids back to their biological parents. 


Every year I volunteer for the Mardi Gras, slowly working my way higher and higher in the Ranks, there is a hell of a lot that goes on behind the scenes not just a gay parade. It's a film festival, it's dance parties, it's awards it costs millions to put on, through sponsership and donations, yet it brings in many times that in revenue for the government. 

It is the second bigger outdoor event in NSW after NYE, it is a huge economic boost for all of NSW not just the 'gay' people. It's a big tourist draw card that beams right around the world. Before anyone dishes it, it is bar NYE the single biggest tourist puller for NSW every year. It also helped Sydney win Events capital of the world 2010


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## Snakewoman (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> . Look at children who have been brought up in an abusive relationship, they slip into the same patterns, look at kids from low socio economic areas that have no proper grounding, they go NOWHERE. .



I understand that this is true in some cases, but many children who grow up where there is abuse won't act the same way because they know how much it hurts people. When I was a kid my mother was an alcoholic and my stepfather was mentally abusive. He was around until I was 8, then he was finally kicked out. I have never followed those patterns of behaviour, I hate alcohol because of the way people act when they are under the influence of it, I have some bad memories of that from when I was a kid. I also hate mental abuse, especially when its being dealt out to a child. We don't all turn out bad 

I don't think having gay parents would necessarily make a kid experiment, and I'm sure the child's parents would explain things to them. If there was a choice between a child being adopted into a family with straight parents who were abusive or having the child go to a family with gay parents who would not abuse them, I would much rather the child go to the gay couple. As long as the child is loved and well looked after I don't see why them having gay parents should be a problem.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

Southside Morelia said:


> Being straight to a gay person is a turn off, correct me if i'm wrong Jay.  Correct, i have many straight friends and i am not attracted to them lol. Straight males seem to think that ALL gay men are attracted to them! hahahaha. WHAT A JOKE. Reality check guys.... just like most girls are not attracted to you, neither are gay men hahaha
> We don't hang out with gays anymore as we are too old and ugly for the pretty people scene now...lol,



Gillsy likes the DADDIES !!!! hahaha


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## richard08 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Whether homosexuality is by choice or nature or whatever I can never agree that it is acceptable for a gay couple to raise children.


I hate even saying the word straight, because whats the difference, but here goes..
Do you think that Straight can love their children more than we can. Do you think that straight people can provide for their children better than we can, Do You think that we are not going to raise our children with the same morals and values that hopefully you will, to be kind, to stand up for themselves and others (which are your children). We will raise our children to be more accepting and tolarant. But then again we all have high hopes for our children, some people hope that their kids will be straight. Personaly i hope that our kids will be healthy and help others and have pride for themselves. In the end does it even matter if you are Gay Or Straight, nobody wants strangers who dont have other people BEST INTRESTS at heart, telling them what they should and shouldnt be able to do. Surely if people are so concerned about the children of gay parents, support rather than ridicule would be the best aproach.. 

Sory me bad spel.


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Gillsy likes the DADDIES !!!! hahaha


 Or it could be the cuddly bears...lol
At least Jay we love your growing collection mate, that's why we are here on these sites to begin with correct? Gay straight who gives a toss, there's good and bad in all people.

I still think that the gay guys loved me...hahahahaha


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## werdy (Apr 5, 2011)

hmm off the topic i know , but hmm i might be able to pick up some dude thats also into retiles here wink wink


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

Southside Morelia said:


> Or it could be the cuddly bears...lol
> At least Jay we love your growing collection mate, that's why we are here on these sites to begin with correct? Gay straight who gives a toss, there's good and bad in all people. so true. I can't wait for the day where there is no ned for a debate thread about this.
> 
> I still think that the gay guys loved me...hahahahaha


I'm sure they still do lol You were a dancer?!?!?! Hot body then??? lol


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I'm sure they still do lol You were a dancer?!?!?! Hot body then??? lol


 Ha Jay, funny thing I worked in a male revue show and contradictory to the gay straight thing, we danced for the girls and GO FIGURE, some of the guys were GAY!!! We used to laugh about this all the time, if only the girls knew! lol 
Now Jay stop picking me up, when i am trying to defend gays!! lol


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

I fully disagree with anyone who claims gays can't/should not be able to raise children. There are a plethora of studies out there from third party, with people with non-vested interest who've legitimately looked into this issue... the conclusion drawn from those studies? There is no psychological difference between children raised by a same-sex couple or a hetero-couple. Kids from same sex couples are more comfortable with exploring their sexuality, and have a stronger tolerance for the way other people live... 

It's not so much a equality issue as it is a human rights issue now; Gays are *human,* not creatures from another universe here to eat you. They're not the the iconic pink-loving, flamboyant, plastic pixies you see in movies or television shows. Men and women should have the right to a family, regardless of sexual preference.


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## giglamesh (Apr 5, 2011)

ancient romans or greeks (not sure which) said true love could only be held between two men. woman were used basically for reproduction among other things, some of my good mates are gay and i have no issues with that. 

what was mentioned earlier about not being able to see dying partners if your married overseas where its excepted does that change things over here?


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> what was mentioned earlier about not being able to see dying partners if your married overseas where its excepted does that change things over here?



Good question. I'm pretty sure that's covered under DeFacto laws now...


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

giglamesh said:


> what was mentioned earlier about not being able to see dying partners if your married overseas where its excepted does that change things over here?


 
If a gay couple are married in a country where it is legal, as soon as they step back on Australian soil it is worthless. Means nothing.



Southside Morelia said:


> Ha Jay, funny thing I worked in a male revue show and contradictory to the gay straight thing, we danced for the girls and GO FIGURE, some of the guys were GAY!!! We used to laugh about this all the time, if only the girls knew! lol
> Now Jay stop picking me up, when i am trying to defend gays!! lol


 
OMG hahahahaha..... you have to dig up some old photos and add them to the names and faces thread!!!!! hahahaha


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## giglamesh (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> If a gay couple are married in a country where it is legal, as soon as they step back on Australian soil it is worthless. Means nothing.



what a shame


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

richard08 said:


> I hate even saying the word straight, because whats the difference, but here goes..
> Do you think that Straight can love their children more than we can. Do you think that straight people can provide for their children better than we can, Do You think that we are not going to raise our children with the same morals and values that hopefully you will, to be kind, to stand up for themselves and others (which are your children). We will raise our children to be more accepting and tolarant. But then again we all have high hopes for our children, some people hope that their kids will be straight. Personaly i hope that our kids will be healthy and help others and have pride for themselves. In the end does it even matter if you are Gay Or Straight, nobody wants strangers who dont have other people BEST INTRESTS at heart, telling them what they should and shouldnt be able to do. Surely if people are so concerned about the children of gay parents, support rather than ridicule would be the best aproach..
> 
> Sory me bad spel.


 
The difference is we can reproduce naturally as nature intended it. 
While I respect that to you personally, your feelings for your partner are sincere and natural, unfortunately the majority of society doesn't see it that way. How can this be a good foundation for raising a child? and with that in mind, and as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> and with that in mind, and as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.



What is this I don't even...?

Because men can never want families? Thicker than a pile of bricks...

Actually, scratch that. Gays want kids so they can raise an army for the purpose of anarchy against the heterosexual social construct.


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> and as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.


 
I don't care if i get banned this, but what a pathetic notion.

How many scrags of women have children to get the baby bonus. 

You know how hard it is for us to even enquire about getting children, what do you think we want them for sex slaves. Get a life.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.



And what do you mean by this comment?


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## werdy (Apr 5, 2011)

i have many straight friends whom they sooner me look after their children then some of their friends, i also am a youth worker dealing with 12 to 17 year old males, all my clients assume i am straight and i prefer it that way 

I was employed was upfront when i applied for my position and have constant support from staff and management.

i would love to have children myself but being single and male that is near impossible, i woke in this field because i seem to have a caring side, i imagine this is why majority of people choose to have children wether gay/straight/bi or transgender.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hmmmmm.... logged off and not answering!


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> If a gay couple are married in a country where it is legal, as soon as they step back on Australian soil it is worthless. Means nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG hahahahaha..... you have to dig up some old photos and add them to the names and faces thread!!!!! hahahaha



Jay, i'm not THAT old!!! 40ish, just like Jamie Dury and the original Manpower who I have worked with and like us, pioneered the male revue scene... We were the original male revue show on Sydney Harbour... called "Girls night afloat" back then, now changed to Sydney Harbour Stallions or something like that, but even 15 years ago, gay guys still worked with us...that's right kiddies, gays were around then! :lol:
I will dig up some "old" pics..lol I have a classic when we were interviewed by a number 1 magazine....Playgirl...Ha, I reckon there was probably 3 readers in total, but we did have some fame with other mags and appearances. Enough exposed, we're now definitely off topic and boring the masses and making me look weird. Although it was a fun time in life thats for sure!!!!!!!!.


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## Snakewoman (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> The difference is we can reproduce naturally as nature intended it. as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.



I'm straight and I don't intend on reproducing. Although I like children, I can't handle being around them for long periods of time, and since I know how it feels to have a parent that doesn't want you or can't handle you, I would never want to put that on a kid. I know there are plenty of straight couples who don't want, or can't have kids. Society tends to bully anybody they see as being different to them. I have 3 mental disorders, I was born with them, and if I changed my ind and decided I wanted kids, plenty of people would be there to complain and say I shouldn't have a kid because I'm different, but just like the gays, there's nothing I can do about it. Unfortunately there will always be plenty of ignorant people who think they're better than everyone else who will whinge at those who are different. If the gay couples continue to be squashed down, the ignorance in large numbers will continue, but if it becomes more common for gay couples to have kids, people will eventually accept it.

Why do you questions the motives of gay men who want kids?


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## Bearded_Lady (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.


 
*forehead slap*

Your argument is plummeting as fast as your credibility


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> The difference is we can reproduce naturally as nature intended it.
> While I respect that to you personally, your feelings for your partner are sincere and natural, unfortunately the majority of society doesn't see it that way. How can this be a good foundation for raising a child? and with that in mind, and as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.


 
I dont even know what to say to this, except that until i had my daughter i never really understood the whole same sex couples with babies thing, especially with men. before you all get upset with me please read on. once i held her and understood the love ANY parent feels for their child i understood. watching my husband with our daughter is amazing. i think EVERYONE should have the right to be a parent.

sorry i know i am not explaining myself well, but thats what happens when u are up all night with a 2yr old....


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

*draws long bow*

But maybe, just maybe... he (steve) is singling out male-homosexuals, not because of
anything sexual, but instead the socially constructed gender roles that exist in society
if so i could see his point (not that i actually care or agree lol).


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

newtolovingsnake said:


> I dont even know what to say to this, except that until i had my daughter i never really understood the whole same sex couples with babies thing, especially with men. before you all get upset with me please read on. once i held her and understood the love ANY parent feels for their child i understood. watching my husband with our daughter is amazing. i think EVERYONE should have the right to be a parent.
> 
> sorry i know i am not explaining myself well, but thats what happens when u are up all night with a 2yr old....


 
And having children comes down to that pure and simple... It is about someone loving their child, adopted, biological, gay, straight, blue or purple.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

Australis said:


> *draws long bow*
> 
> But maybe, just maybe... he (steve) is singling out male-homosexuals, not because of
> anything sexual, but instead the socially constructed gender roles that exist in society
> if so i could see his point (not that i actually care or agree lol).


 
no no, he said this as a personal opinion of his. ''*I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.''
*
I eagerly await his reply.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

I have worded my posts politely and have not taken a personal swipe at anybody. 
Sex slaves Gillsy? where did you pull that from?
It is so difficult for same sex couples to enquire about having children because whether you like it or not I'm not the only thick as bricks redneck that feels this way.
I also know gay people male and female that I would leave my daughter with however although they disagree with some of my beliefs they don't belittle me for them.
As far as questioning the motives of same sex couples I believe it's more about wanting what society says they can't have rather than raising a child. I guess I also just feel it's more understandable that gay women would want children because they are more maternal than men.


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## abnrmal91 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> The difference is we can reproduce naturally as nature intended it.



What does it matter if someone can naturally reproduce. Why can't gay have children in you opinion. Be the same token. By your opinion woman shouldn't be allowed to use ivf as that's not natural. What a arrogant opinion.


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I guess I also just feel it's more understandable that gay women would want children because they are more maternal than men.


 
Thats what i thought you might of been getting at.
In a heterosexual relationship its usually the female banging on about having kids.
Two guys in a relationship should be a get out of jail free card lol


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

By the way half a dozen posts have been put up in the time I typed mine, my comments had nothing to do with sexual motives of gay men


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I believe it's more about wanting what society says they can't have rather than raising a child. I guess I also just feel it's more understandable that gay women would want children because they are more maternal than men.


 
So... you think that they go through months of planning, research, agonizing over every single detail and fighting tooth and nail to have their own baby/child in an act of rebellion (especially from Gay men, because men can't be maternal)? Obviously no gay person ever wants to have children or have a family, they just want an accessory to prove to society they'd make good parental figures, then dump it on the curb when they're done. 

Just wow...


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

Obviously you have much more faith in the human race than me.


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> As far as questioning the motives of same sex couples I believe it's more about wanting what society says they can't have rather than raising a child. I guess I also just feel it's more understandable that gay women would want children because they are more maternal than men.



Do you have children?? Do you not love your children as much as your wife just because you are male? Are you saying that every father on this forum did not want to have children as much as any woman?? That they also do not love their children as much as their wives? 

You think it is a case of wanting something just because we can't have it?!?!? You can not be serious Steve? You think that it is some sort of game? something so trivial that we only want kids to prove a point? i am quite shocked.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Obviously you have much more faith in the human race than me.



I just choose not to judge who will be a good parent based on sexual preference.


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## werdy (Apr 5, 2011)

i think i have so many pets cause i cant have children , it fills a void in my life i come home and have pets to tend to


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> By the way half a dozen posts have been put up in the time I typed mine, my comments had nothing to do with sexual motives of gay men



I find it difficult to beleive that you didn't post that comment without knowing full well that members would read between the lines and the response it would bring. 

You knew you would illicit that response. Otherwise you would have explained your posotion. Your explanation took two lines, if you weren't being a troll you would have explained.


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Do you have children?? Do you not love your children as much as your wife just because you are male? Are you saying that every father on this forum did not want to have children as much as any woman?? That they also do not love their children as much as their wives?
> 
> You think it is a case of wanting something just because we can't have it?!?!? You can not be serious Steve? You think that it is some sort of game? something so trivial that we only want kids to prove a point? i am quite shocked.


 I have to agree with this!!! Male or female we all have maturnal instincts and I for one could not live my life without, watching my kids grow which brings me a joy that is second to none.
Now please leave me to put on my leather G-string and dance again..... like have never danced before!!


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I have worded my posts politely and have not taken a personal swipe at anybody.
> Sex slaves Gillsy? where did you pull that from?
> It is so difficult for same sex couples to enquire about having children because whether you like it or not I'm not the only thick as bricks redneck that feels this way.
> I also know gay people male and female that I would leave my daughter with however although they disagree with some of my beliefs they don't belittle me for them.
> As far as questioning the motives of same sex couples I believe it's more about wanting what society says they can't have rather than raising a child. I guess I also just feel it's more understandable that gay women would want children because they are more maternal than men.


 
So what your saying is because they are a male couple they shouldn't want children, did you want chlidren with your wife. 

Explain the difference between you wanting children with your partner and a gay male wanting children. 

Why do you question the motives of gay men, you still haven't explained your reasoning, like we have some Ulterior motive for having them... remember we don't get the baby bonus... yet the local drug addict who is having children is. Why do you go preach to her about having children, oh that's right you wont that's 'natural'


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## richard08 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> The difference is we can reproduce naturally as nature intended it.
> While I respect that to you personally, your feelings for your partner are sincere and natural, unfortunately the majority of society doesn't see it that way. How can this be a good foundation for raising a child? and with that in mind, and as a parent myself I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.



Just because you can reproduce(as you call it) does not mean that you should.. You would have to agree that a hell of a lot of couples have children because they just end up preg.. and deal with it the best that they can. and good on them. Im many situations people have to try and try honestly its like climing Mt Friggen Everest, to have chinldren. and its because we want this so bad...These are the kind of people that we want raising children, not the kind who can give birth like giant sprinklers scatering basterd children to the four corners of the earth..and dont even care....And if you actully new and gay or Les couples you would now that they would make increadable parents. Some of the gay people that i no are so insperational in every single thing that they do, and i am so proud to no them. You might think that gay men want to be farthers for the wrong reasons, what about gay women, or do you think two women togther is hot,,,the thought of you to gay women is def not hot.... The sick thoughts that make you question gay parents make you the one to be questioned. call the police, I would rip the head off anyone who touched my kids... what would you do....


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> .But this makes no sense at all. Gay people come from all walks of life. From religious backgrounds, low socio economic, immigrants, etc etc etc. Also, how many times do i have to say i was not exposed to homosexuality as a child or teen?!?!?! Many of us were not. What about the country gays who grew up in tiny towns and had no other gays??


 
Mate, read my posts. I believe that the vast majority of homosexual people out there have no choice in the matter. It IS a chemical inbalance in the glands that excrete sex hormones.

There is NOTHING wrong with being gay, but young children are impressionable. If they grow up like this they MAY feel homosexual themselves. I can't say this 100% for sure, but I believe that nature AND nurture both play a part in how any animal grows up.



shellfisch said:


> Unfortunately, some kids don't need a reason to bully or pick on other children.
> And I can think of worse things than a child being brought up by two parents (regardless of their gender and sexuality) who love and want you.


 
I know some kids don't need a reason to be *******s.. But if they find a reason, the bullying can be relentless and focussed on the same person, which could have a whole range of consequences. The child could end up resenting the parents or anything.



steve1 said:


> I have to question the motives of same sex couples wanting children, inparticularly gay men.



I disagree with this part, mate. If you take my theory into account (homosexuality is brought on by vast amounts of the "wrong" sex hormone floating around inside someone), it's plausible to think that a gay man would have some form of motherly tendancies. I'm a 19 year old straight male, so I don't have any desire for kids, and therefore can't fathom it lol. But I believe that there are legitimate reasons for homosexuals to want a family.

That ^^^ Is a WHOLE other issue... I still don't think gay people raising children is a great idea.


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Mate, read my posts. I believe that the vast majority of homosexual people out there have no choice in the matter. It IS a chemical inbalance in the glands that excrete sex hormones.
> 
> There is NOTHING wrong with being gay, but young children are impressionable. If they grow up like this they MAY feel homosexual themselves. I can't say this 100% for sure, but I believe that nature AND nurture both play a part in how any animal grows up.
> 
> ...



There is a lot of research on this topic. All the information i have read up on has shown that being homosexual is not a product of environment.


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

Sociologists would give anything to prove it stemmed from social factors, they hate biology  (and all real science laughs at them lol)


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> There is a lot of research on this topic. All the information i have read up on has shown that being homosexual is not a product of environment.


 
Dude, that is what I've been saying!!! It's CHEMICAL!! BUUUUT YOUNG CHILDREN ARE IMPRESSIONABLE. No one knows how a young mind could potentially be shaped. Has anyone done research into children raised by same sex couples? 

There is no doubt in my mind that SOME children bought up by same sex couples would experiment, or even think they themselves, were gay.

How would anyone have been able to conduct tests of homosexuality being a product of environment?

I'll state this one last time, I have been reiterating myself quite a bit in this thread that I believe homosexuality has a *bio chemical* reason. But I still believe it's possible for young children to be VERY confused.


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Mate, read my posts. I believe that the vast majority of homosexual people out there have no choice in the matter. It IS a chemical inbalance in the glands that excrete sex hormones.
> 
> There is NOTHING wrong with being gay, but young children are impressionable. If they grow up like this they MAY feel homosexual themselves. I can't say this 100% for sure, but I believe that nature AND nurture both play a part in how any animal grows up.
> 
> ...


 

Nurture has been proven not to be a reason of being gay in all studies, the only thing exposing a child to it will do is show that it is acceptable and should not be feared or hated.

My nieces and friends kids have known I was gay, and my boyfriends thought the years before they even heard the word ‘gay’ used as a derogatory term.

My nieces have always stayed with me from the age from 3. My oldest neice said at the age of 9, I want to live with a gay man when I’m older their superclean!

I am the God Father of my best girlfriend daughter, and she would trust me over any of her straight friends even the ones with children.


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I disagree with this part, mate. If you take my theory into account (homosexuality is brought on by vast amounts of the "wrong" sex hormone floating around inside someone), it's plausible to think that a gay man would have some form of motherly tendancies. I'm a 19 year old straight male, so I don't have any desire for kids, and therefore can't fathom it lol. But I believe that there are legitimate reasons for homosexuals to want a family.
> 
> That ^^^ Is a WHOLE other issue... I still don't think gay people raising children is a great idea.



Champ you really need to do a bit of research into sexuality before you start posting opinions like that. If it was down to an inbalance of a hormone 'floating around' then sexuality could be chosen and defined with therapy. 

It can't be done.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Nurture has been proven not to be a reason of being gay in all studies, the only thing exposing a child to it will do is show that it is acceptable and should not be feared or hated.
> 
> My nieces and friends kids have known I was gay, and my boyfriends thought the years before they even heard the word ‘gay’ used as a derogatory term.
> 
> ...


 
You're a gay male interracting with females... I think the point is somewhat negligable. I mean that in the non rudest way possible.


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## moosenoose (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey guys, don't get all hetrophobic on us :lol:


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> Champ you really need to do a bit of research into sexuality before you start posting opinions like that. If it was down to an inbalance of a hormone 'floating around' then sexuality could be chosen and defined with therapy.
> 
> It can't be done.


 
I'm not going to get into the nitty grittie's of biology on a forum mate. It is a biological reason, and it has to do with hormones.


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## werdy (Apr 5, 2011)

i know a few people that have had gay parents and they are all now in heterosexual relationships


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## imalizard (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I'm not going to get into the nitty grittie's of biology on a forum mate. It is a biological reason, and it has to do with hormones.



My professional opinion right here... I don't care if it's biological, I'm gay because I like guys :lol:. If my brain has an imbalance then I'm glad because I like guys


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

werdy said:


> i know a few people that have had gay parents and they are all now in heterosexual relationships


 
Well I guess that solves it 

My points about the upbringing of a child evolving into sexual preferences is PURELY hypothetical and it's a speculation I have. I may be wrong, I may not. No one can prove it without research. 

Uncle bobs gay son terry that works down at the childcare centre, where all the three year olds are totally alpha, destined to be future MMA stars doesn't cut it.



imalizard said:


> My professional opinion right here... I don't care if it's biological, I'm gay because I like guys :lol:. If my brain has an imbalance then I'm glad because I like guys


 
There's nothing wrong with that, man. I don't mean it in a bad way at all. Everyone is different.


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## grimbeny (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I'm not going to get into the nitty grittie's of biology on a forum mate. It is a biological reason, and it has to do with hormones.


 
This is a good forum to talk about biology. No one has identified a hormone involved in homosexuality. I dont think its that simple. Very little is known about how homosexuality is influenced by physiology.


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Dude, that is what I've been saying!!! It's CHEMICAL!! BUUUUT YOUNG CHILDREN ARE IMPRESSIONABLE. No one knows how a young mind could potentially be shaped. Has anyone done research into children raised by same sex couples?
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that SOME children bought up by same sex couples would experiment, or even think they themselves, were gay.
> 
> ...



I am listening to you, i think your opinions are valid and i appreciate them (and i think everyone else in this thread does too). For a 19yo aussie i think you are a pretty open minded chap. 

With that said i think your opinions are showing that you still hold some unfounded views that i don't agree with and research doesn't agree with. That is what i have been saying. 

Anyway, i'll again adress yourr point that childrne living with same sex parents may grow up confused.

I know alot of people who have grown up with straight parents. When puberty hit they were still confused, some experimented with same sex relationships and some didn't. Ergo, being confused is normal. And experimenting, although you may find it a bit repulsive, is not a bad thing and can be a lot of fun!


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

Contrary to what you believe Gordo the sexual conotations hadn't crossed my mind, it is a matter to serious to even consider implying just for forum kicks.

Gillsy, I did explain to a degree why I question the motives of gay men and to elaborate even further, know matter how good of a parent you think you may or could be, the fact that you would bring a child into an environment that will most likely lead to them been ostricized, bullied, ridiculed ETC speaks more about what you want for yourself rather than the child, Another reason I question the motives of gay men is surely as males and gay men at that, they would understand that having two dads is going to be a hell of a lot worse than two mums. 
Allowing gay couples, especially men to have children, is little more than a social experiment using children as guinae pigs.

You let me know when some druggo posts on the forum and I'll tell them what I think too, I never said they had more right to parenthood than gay people, so I don't know why you keep using that line.

Ok so maybe gay men can want kids out of paternal/maternal instinct, it still doesn't make it right


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## gillsy (Apr 5, 2011)

Yep, because go out to play games with children's lives. Lets just have a social experiment, we'll even put it on TV and make it the next big hit in reality TV.


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Contrary to what you believe Gordo the sexual conotations hadn't crossed my mind, it is a matter to serious to even consider implying just for forum kicks.



In that case i apologise. 

It is an extrmeley serious matter, that's why i jumped on it. In a conversation revolving around sexuality i think we can be forgiven for mis-interpreting your post but I'm glad that it is not what you meant.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

richard08 said:


> Just because you can reproduce(as you call it) does not mean that you should.. You would have to agree that a hell of a lot of couples have children because they just end up preg.. and deal with it the best that they can. and good on them. Im many situations people have to try and try honestly its like climing Mt Friggen Everest, to have chinldren. and its because we want this so bad...These are the kind of people that we want raising children, not the kind who can give birth like giant sprinklers scatering basterd children to the four corners of the earth..and dont even care....And if you actully new and gay or Les couples you would now that they would make increadable parents. Some of the gay people that i no are so insperational in every single thing that they do, and i am so proud to no them. You might think that gay men want to be farthers for the wrong reasons, what about gay women, or do you think two women togther is hot,,,the thought of you to gay women is def not hot.... The sick thoughts that make you question gay parents make you the one to be questioned. call the police, I would rip the head off anyone who touched my kids... what would you do....





You went a little of the rails here mate. I haven't metioned a single sex act in any of my posts yet you just go ahead and accuse me of thinking some pretty sick ****, Pull your head in. I realize it's a pretty touchy subject but I have been completely civil in my posts.

P.S. I haven't met a single hetero bloke that doesn't think two women together is hot, so I don't know what your getting at there.


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## richard08 (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Contrary to what you believe Gordo the sexual conotations hadn't crossed my mind, it is a matter to serious to even consider implying just for forum kicks.
> 
> Gillsy, I did explain to a degree why I question the motives of gay men and to elaborate even further, know matter how good of a parent you think you may or could be, the fact that you would bring a child into an environment that will most likely lead to them been ostricized, bullied, ridiculed ETC speaks more about what you want for yourself rather than the child, Another reason I question the motives of gay men is surely as males and gay men at that, they would understand that having two dads is going to be a hell of a lot worse than two mums.
> Allowing gay couples, especially men to have children, is little more than a social experiment using children as guinae pigs.
> ...



The problem is that WHEN we prove you very worng and all of our children go up just fine, no better or worse than the rest. You wount be so special any more. 

The world is changing GET ON BOARD, OR GET OFF,,,,,


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## marcmarc (Apr 5, 2011)

I still can not understand why it is such a big issue who someone else has attractions towards. Who cares what people do in their own lives? It is diversity that makes society interesting isn't it? 
I am straight and I do not feel threatened/intimidated/offended by people that have the bravery to live thier lives how they want to.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Dude, that is what I've been saying!!! It's CHEMICAL!! BUUUUT YOUNG CHILDREN ARE IMPRESSIONABLE. No one knows how a young mind could potentially be shaped. Has anyone done research into children raised by same sex couples? .


 
Only for the past 70 years...A two second Google search provided the answer to that question. It really isn't that difficult, but I suppose caps lock is a lot easier. 

As previously stated, no key, major, or harmful differences between being raised by same sex or heterosexual parents.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> This is a good forum to talk about biology. No one has identified a hormone involved in homosexuality. I dont think its that simple. Very little is known about how homosexuality is influenced by physiology.


 
I suppose this would be a good forum for it. I however won't get into it, it would be like writing a whole assignment (which I already have to do twice over for uni).


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## Mudimans (Apr 5, 2011)

richard08 said:


> Just because you can reproduce(as you call it) does not mean that you should.. You would have to agree that a hell of a lot of couples have children because they just end up preg.. and deal with it the best that they can. and good on them. Im many situations people have to try and try honestly its like climing Mt Friggen Everest, to have chinldren. and its because we want this so bad...These are the kind of people that we want raising children, not the kind who can give birth like giant sprinklers scatering basterd children to the four corners of the earth..and dont even care....And if you actully new and gay or Les couples you would now that they would make increadable parents. Some of the gay people that i no are so insperational in every single thing that they do, and i am so proud to no them.




Exactly my thoughts. As someone who works with new parents, I see SO many people who accidentally fall pregnant, and although a lot of these people will still make great parents, there are way to many people out there bringing children into this world who shouldn't be! Just because they 'naturally' fall pregnant doesn't just instantly make them good parents!! I have seen a small amount of same sex couples having children, and the fact that they have had to fight so hard for that right and work so hard to have a baby shows how much they want to have children and the lengths they will go to for their child. Not saying they will be better parents than any other couple, but at least they're not just 'scattering bastard children to the four corners of the earth' as Richard so eloquently put it! lol


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Only for the past 70 years...A two second Google search provided the answer to that question. It really isn't that difficult, but I suppose caps lock is a lot easier.
> 
> As previously stated, no key, major, or harmful differences between being raised by same sex or heterosexual parents.


 
So constant, relentless, demoralising ridicule is "no key, major, or harmful" to a child and it has no possibility that it would stunt their social developement? I love the patronisation, too. Things are lost in translation over the internet, using caps to highlight a point can be useful, if it is done in a way that isn't rude.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> So constant, relentless, demoralising ridicule is "no key, major, or harmful" to a child and it has no possibility that it would stunt their social developement? I love the patronisation, too. Things are lost in translation over the internet, using caps to highlight a point can be useful, if it is done in a way that isn't rude.



Fine, I'll use a quote from a study released in the states, just to make sure "nothing gets lost in translation." 



> "Our findings challenge received notions about the importance of children having both one female and one male parent. In this sample, regardless of whether they had one mother and one father, two mothers, or two fathers, children were thriving. Our findings are also at odds with the notion that only heterosexual adults make capable parents and that lesbian and gay parents are somehow ineffective or harmful. Inasmuch as there were no significant associations between parental sexual orientation and child adjustment, our results are consistent with notions that two parents of the same gender can be capable parents and that parental sexual orientation is not related to parenting skill or child adjustment. [...] From a policy perspective, our results provide no justification for denying lesbian and gay adults from adopting children. Indeed, barring adoptions to prospective lesbian and gay parents seems likely to produce a number of undesirable outcomes.[...] In jurisdictions that bar same-sex couples or lesbian and gay individuals from adopting, fewer children were adopted from foster care. Thus, it appears that more children could potentially benefit from having permanent homes with capable parents if lesbian and gay adults were allowed to adopt in the U.S. and elsewhere."


And do tell, where will this "relentless, demoralising ridicule" come from? How is it any different from children who are already unabatedly teased for the smallest insignificant thing? For being fat? For wearing glasses? For being a redhead? For being too short, for having big feet, for being a different race, for being _different? _

You have no valid argument, because otherwise we should just start banning people from having children that look different, that are different, simply because their children might get teased?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I am listening to you, i think your opinions are valid and i appreciate them (and i think everyone else in this thread does too). For a 19yo aussie i think you are a pretty open minded chap.
> 
> With that said i think your opinions are showing that you still hold some unfounded views that i don't agree with and research doesn't agree with. That is what i have been saying.
> 
> ...


 
I missed this, sorry. Cheers mate, I appreciate that. As for experimenting, hahaha... I think it's every straight males dream to go to bed with two chicks, so I have no objections to experimentation. What guys or girls do in their own time is up to them.


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## Mudimans (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I believe that nature AND nurture both play a part in how any animal grows up.



I totally agree with this comment-but don't see how nurture can affect a persons sexual preference. You just can't help what attracts you! You're born with that preference and although people may fight it or try and hide it-it's a basic instinct you just can't change! 
(Sorry, don't know how to multi quote)


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I know some kids don't need a reason to be *******s.. But if they find a reason, the bullying can be relentless and focussed on the same person, which could have a whole range of consequences. The child could end up resenting the parents or anything.


 I have to partially agree with this, I was in a relationship with a woman for the formative years of my oldest sons life and I only found out recently what his emotions and feelings were back then. He is 27 now, and straight with 2 kids. He told me he had to suffer constant beratement at school, and he went to a supposedly very open community school in Birchgrove, he felt weird and like he wasn't the same as the other kids, he got teased and bullied until he fought back and he also never really accepted our relationship. He admitted he still does harbour resentment towards me for putting him through that. Having said that, the woman I was with was a nasty cow, she was jealous of him being my biological son and used to chuck a mental if we showed to much parent child affection. But the thing he hated the most was not being accepted by his peers.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> And do tell, where will this "relentless, demoralising ridicule" come from? How is it any different from children who are already unabatedly teased for the smallest insignificant thing? For being fat? For wearing glasses? For being a redhead? For being too short, for having big feet, for being a different race, for being _different? _
> 
> You have no valid argument.



The ridicule is no different at all, however, parents can't help if their kids are ugly, short or a ginger ninja, so it's the luck of the draw. Obesity can be overcome with exercise and proper eating, I see no reason (beyond underlying medical factors) for kids to be obese and I find it disgusting that parents let their kids get that way. Forget the social stigmas associated with being "fat", think of the health problems that arise, artherosclerosis, liver disease, kidney disease, diabetes, stroke etc. The point is, parents of ugly children didn't make them ugly intentionally. Gay parents rais their childred in a loving, caring home, albeit one set up for ridicule and scrutiny.

My "argument" is built upon speculation. I have nothing to prove or disprove it, and I never said I had. The fact that you won't even consider it makes it hard for me to even continue typing to you.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

richard08 said:


> The problem is that WHEN we prove you very worng and all of our children go up just fine, no better or worse than the rest. You wount be so special any more.
> 
> The world is changing GET ON BOARD, OR GET OFF,,,,,




For your kids sake I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. This remark just confirms my beliefs that your doing it for the wrong reasons, in you own words "when we prove you very wrong" Fine, remember though that if you do succeed it still doen't justify the reasons for doing it in the first place


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..discus:

"Our findings challenge received notions about the importance of children having both one female and one male parent. In this sample, regardless of whether they had one mother and one father, two mothers, or two fathers, children were thriving. Our findings are also at odds with the notion that only heterosexual adults make capable parents and that lesbian and gay parents are somehow ineffective or harmful. Inasmuch as there were no significant associations between parental sexual orientation and child adjustment, our results are consistent with notions that two parents of the same gender can be capable parents and that parental sexual orientation is not related to parenting skill or child adjustment. [...] From a policy perspective, our results provide no justification for denying lesbian and gay adults from adopting children. Indeed, barring adoptions to prospective lesbian and gay parents seems likely to produce a number of undesirable outcomes.[...] In jurisdictions that bar same-sex couples or lesbian and gay individuals from adopting, fewer children were adopted from foster care. Thus, it appears that more children could potentially benefit from having permanent homes with capable parents if lesbian and gay adults were allowed to adopt in the U.S. and elsewhere."

I never said anywhere that homosexuals would make bad parents. I said it could lead to confusion of the child and more than likely, a childhood/teenage years full of torment, which could pose significant issues later in life.

Also, how many scientists were advocates for ciggarettes? If the pay cheque is high enough, people can be manipulated to say anything.


----------



## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> My "argument" is built upon speculation. I have nothing to prove or disprove it, and I never said I had. The fact that you won't even consider it makes it hard for me to even continue typing to you.



Your "argument" is built upon an uninformed opinion that you refuse to expand with research either for or against - it's not speculation. You're acting on the belief that children don't belong with same sex couples (because they're "impressionable"), when the unbiased majority of the scientific world says you're wrong. There are a plethora of studies that have followed children of gay couples well into adult hood, and watched them become well adjusted, happy individuals who understand the need for tolerance and understanding (and these date back to the 50's.) There is _no _difference psychological or mentally from children raised in same sex households than there were raised by heterosexuals. 

I'm done with you and your pseudo-intellectual ideals. I've seen better arguments from Born-Again Christians.


> The new study by two University of Southern California sociologists says children with lesbian or gay parents show more empathy for social diversity, are less confined by gender stereotypes, and are probably more likely to explore homosexual activity themselves. Writing in recent issue of the _American Sociological Review_, the authors say that the emotional health of the two sets of children is essentially the same.


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> I've seen better arguments from Born-Again Christians.



That's a bit harsh! lol


----------



## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Your "argument" is built upon an uninformed opinion that you refuse to expand with research either for or against - it's not speculation. You're acting on the belief that children don't belong with same sex couples (because they're "impressionable"), when the unbiased majority of the scientific world says you're wrong. There are a plethora of studies that have followed children of gay couples well into adult hood, and watched them become well adjusted, happy individuals who understand the need for tolerance and understanding (and these date back to the 50's.)
> 
> I'm done with you and your pseudo-intellectual ideals. I've seen better arguments from Born-Again Christians.



I'm an athiest  . My intellect is not of the pseudo variety, it's very real. You just like throwing "plethora's of research" into an argument because you can't construct a decent one yourself.

Speculation:

*a. * Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
*b. * A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
*c. * Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.

I think given the fact that I admit to not being able to prove anything one way or another, that calling my posts in this thread, my "speculation" is adequate.


----------



## nathancl (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> You're a gay male interracting with females... I think the point is somewhat negligable. I mean that in the non rudest way possible.


 
Gillsy do you even have a female friend with the exception of claire?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

nathancl said:


> Gillsy do you even have a female friend with the exception of claire?


 
I can't find the post, but the guy was talking about having an important role in his nieces lives, which is awesome... But I don't see how a gay person of the OPPOSITE sex could influence a child one way or another.

You either have a non flamboyant gay man, who a girl would look up to as the sort of guy she'd aspire to be with one day OR a flamboyant type who would be right at home painting nails and doing girly activities, which would reinforce the young girls "girliness" lol.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I'm an athiest  . My intellect is not of the pseudo variety, it's very real. You just like throwing "plethora's of research" into an argument because you can't construct a decent one yourself.
> 
> I think given the fact that I admit to not being able to prove anything one way or another, that calling my posts in this thread, my "speculation" is adequate.



I made no reference to you being any religious denomination, and your "speculation" is an opinion - an opinion that's well behind anything resembling "intellectual." 

You want studies? Fine. All these institutions have released studies pertaining to LGBT parents. 
American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association
American Psychoanalytic Association
National Association of Social Workers
Child Welfare League of America
North American Council on Adoptable Children
Canadian Psychological Association.
The data is consistent with my - for lack of a better term at the moment - thesis. Your "speculation" is an opinion based on nothing other than your own prejudice.


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I can't find the post, but the guy was talking about having an important role in his nieces lives, which is awesome... But I don't see how a gay person of the OPPOSITE sex could influence a child one way or another.
> 
> You either have a non flamboyant gay man, who a girl would look up to as the sort of guy she'd aspire to be with one day OR a flamboyant type who would be right at home painting nails and doing girly activities, which would reinforce the young girls "girliness" lol.



I grew up with a transgender uncle. I remember when she stopped being Aunty Vanessa and became Uncle Josh. My only question was 'who's Uncle Josh?' Until i saw him again and everything was back to normal. Young kids don't give two hoots as long as they are loved.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> I made no reference to you being an religious denomination, and your "speculation" is an opinion - an opinion that's well behind anything resembling "intellectual."
> 
> .


 
I know you didn't, you said "I have seen better arguments from a born again christian" I just thought I'd throw in the fun little fact that I am an athiest. Because you even bothered telling me that you didn't make a reference to my religious denomination implies you thought that I didn't read properly. 

PERHAPS (those caps are lovely for emphasis ) you should read. I didn't want studies at all. I actually made a smart *** comment about studies being concluded in favour of whoever has the most dosh riding on the outcome 



waruikazi said:


> I grew up with a transgender uncle. I remember when she stopped being Aunty Vanessa and became Uncle Josh. My only question was 'who's Uncle Josh?' Until i saw him again and everything was back to normal. Young kids don't give two hoots as long as they are loved.


 
I can see that mate, but other young kids could take advantage of the oddity of a same sex parenting situation. That's where the resentment toward the parents coming from the child could stem from. Again this is all just a theory.


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> I'm done with you and your pseudo-intellectual ideals. I've seen better arguments from Born-Again Christians.


 
To be fair sociology/social science is nothing more than pseudo-science.

Anyone with papers on the nature vs nurture, from legitimate science journals?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Your "speculation" is an opinion based on nothing other than your own prejudice.


 
Where have I stated that my argument is anything more than a conjecture? I have never said that my arguments have a Ph.D to back it up.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I know you didn't, you said "I have seen better arguments from a born again christian" I just thought I'd throw in the fun little fact that I am an athiest. Because you even bothered telling me that you didn't make a reference to my religious denomination implies you thought that I didn't read properly.
> 
> PERHAPS (those caps are lovely for emphasis ) you should read. I didn't want studies at all. I actually made a smart *** comment about studies being concluded in favour of whoever has the most dosh riding on the outcome
> 
> I can see that mate, but other young kids could take advantage of the oddity of a same sex parenting situation. That's where the resentment toward the parents coming from the child could stem from. Again this is all just a theory.


 
I did read your posts, I read between the lines as well. The fact you needed to bring up your atheism shows you feel the need to separate yourself from religion in an attempt to validate your opinion (to make sure I understand that any of the major gay-bashing denominations have no impact on your understanding of what happens with children, psychologically that is, in a same-sex parenting couple.)

Also, those studies that you accuse of being "paid off" for are consistent from the very beginning, when the majority was strongly against gays in any social construct.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> I did read your posts, I read between the lines as well. The fact you needed to bring up your atheism shows you feel the need to separate yourself from religion in an attempt to validate your opinion (to make sure I understand that any of the major gay-bashing denominations have no impact on your understanding of what happens with children, psychologically that is, in a same-sex parenting couple.)
> 
> Also, those studies that you accuse of being "paid off" for are consistent from the very beginning, when the majority was strongly against gays in any social construct.


 
Epic LAWL. I saw "born again christians" and decided to be a smartass. I couldn't care less what you think. If you'd like to know what I think, well.... I think you may just be a:

_Teenagers: _

Teenagers are the slightly more experienced keepers then _Youngins_, who have been floating around the site for a few months to a year, accumulating friends and forming attack groups - much like Velociraptors in Jurassic Park (you know the part where they rip that poor guy to pieces? Soughta like that, except they'd be insulting the guy's husbandry skills while they gnawed on his liver.) Often prone to know-it-all-isms, they will answer pointless threads and laugh at your 'stupidity.' 99% of Teenagers, at one point or another, will clash with each other, or any APS member for that matter; but that is merely an APS'er's nature. However, they have been known to use underhanded tactics in order to win, even if it means being banned - because who cares if you get suspended?! YOU WERE RIGHT AND THEY NEED TO KNOW IT!


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

^ lol - love it.
Did you just write that?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Australis said:


> ^ lol - love it.
> Did you just write that?


 
No, she did. That's why it's funny! HAHA.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Epic LAWL. I saw "born again christians" and decided to be a smartass. I couldn't care less what you think. If you'd like to know what I think, well.... I think you may just be a:
> 
> _Teenagers: _
> 
> Teenagers are the slightly more experienced keepers then _Youngins_, who have been floating around the site for a few months to a year, accumulating friends and forming attack groups - much like Velociraptors in Jurassic Park (you know the part where they rip that poor guy to pieces? Soughta like that, except they'd be insulting the guy's husbandry skills while they gnawed on his liver.) Often prone to know-it-all-isms, they will answer pointless threads and laugh at your 'stupidity.' 99% of Teenagers, at one point or another, will clash with each other, or any APS member for that matter; but that is merely an APS'er's nature. However, they have been known to use underhanded tactics in order to win, even if it means being banned - because who cares if you get suspended?! YOU WERE RIGHT AND THEY NEED TO KNOW IT!



That's nice. Got anything else to quote back at me or are you done? 

btw, I'm not the teenager here. At least I have the balls to back up whatever I say with studies  and not hide behind "speculations."


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I have to partially agree with this, I was in a relationship with a woman for the formative years of my oldest sons life and I only found out recently what his emotions and feelings were back then. He is 27 now, and straight with 2 kids. He told me he had to suffer constant beratement at school, and he went to a supposedly very open community school in Birchgrove, he felt weird and like he wasn't the same as the other kids, he got teased and bullied until he fought back and he also never really accepted our relationship. He admitted he still does harbour resentment towards me for putting him through that. Having said that, the woman I was with was a nasty cow, she was jealous of him being my biological son and used to chuck a mental if we showed to much parent child affection. But the thing he hated the most was not being accepted by his peers.


 
Thanks for the insight and honesty.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> That's nice. Got anything else to quote back at me or are you done?
> 
> btw, I'm not the teenager here.


 
Well, you certainly couldn't be an all knowing at 20 years of age. I found it funny that you said in that thread that you have felt like tearing a teenagers head off, on occasion. Your description of a teenager describes how you've argued fairly well.

Yeah, kaotikjezta, sorry for ignoring your post. I appreciate the honesty.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Well, you certainly couldn't be an all knowing at 20 years of age. I found it funny that you said in that thread that you have felt like tearing a teenagers head off, on occasion. Your description of a teenager describes how you've argued fairly well.


 
Mmhmm, yes, and what have you done in this thread other than hide behind the phrase, "I'm intelligent, I have a *speculation.*" And in regards to age, I don't make any presumptions about your _giant _intellect based on your location. 

The scientific community says the conclusion I've come to is acceptable. You continue to speculate with the boys out in the shed... really.


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> The scientific community says the conclusion I've come to is acceptable. You continue to speculate with the boys out in the shed... really.


 
Ill give you credit for punching out a few references Discus.

(Sociological references aren't part of the scientific community)

Are you a sociology or psychology student?


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

I think kawasakirider and Crystal..discus should hook up.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

Australis said:


> Ill give you credit for punching out a few references Discus.
> 
> Sociological references arent part of the scientific community.
> 
> Are you a sociology or psychology student?


 
Neither. This is something I've done in my own time. 

As for the Nurture vs Nature papers, I've been hard pressed finding one that wasn't funded by one party or another. I try not to read things that are funded either by a LGBT community or religious groups... unavoidable sometimes.


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

"_Neither. This is something I've done in my own time._"

Fair enough, makes sense. 
Sociology is basically the laughing stock of psychology and the "hard sciences".
If you read enough psychology journals you will see what i mean.
Sociology doesn't follow proper scientific method, especially with issues of gender
and sexuality.

To quote my sociology lecturer "you cant put gender under the microscope"
90% of lectures involved desperate attempts to defend sociology as a discipline lol


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Mmhmm, yes, and what have you done in this thread other than hide behind the phrase, "I'm intelligent, I have a *speculation.*" And in regards to age, I don't make any presumptions about your _giant _intellect based on your location.
> 
> The scientific community says the conclusion I've come to is acceptable. You continue to speculate with the boys out in the shed... really.


 
Hmmm talking about low socio economic areas and mixing them in with personal shots? Quite low. However, if you did your homework on me, like I did on you, you'd know I'm a recent Ipswich resident. The location is halfway between Brisbane (where my GF studies) and Gatton, (where I study), so it makes sense.

I guess because you're taking shots at certain areas, you've been spoon fed your wordly intelligence by your rich parents and the stand up chaps at the highest paid institutions in the country. 'On ya mate.

I'm eating a big easter bunny, so I'm not replying for a while. I admit to my posts being a bit childish toward the end, sorry if that offended anyone (except you, Crystal  lol jokes, if I offended you I apologise), but I think I have somewhat valid "speculations".


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I have to partially agree with this, I was in a relationship with a woman for the formative years of my oldest sons life and I only found out recently what his emotions and feelings were back then. He is 27 now, and straight with 2 kids. He told me he had to suffer constant beratement at school, and he went to a supposedly very open community school in Birchgrove, he felt weird and like he wasn't the same as the other kids, he got teased and bullied until he fought back and he also never really accepted our relationship. He admitted he still does harbour resentment towards me for putting him through that. Having said that, the woman I was with was a nasty cow, she was jealous of him being my biological son and used to chuck a mental if we showed to much parent child affection. But the thing he hated the most was not being accepted by his peers.



But this is what needs to change! This will only change when it becomes or is considered more of the 'norm'. 

I am also not surprised if he didn't accept your relationship if she was a 'nasty cow' and was jealous of your son?!?! Maybe he would feel different about the situation if he was bought up by 2 loving gay parents, who loved him equally?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I think kawasakirider and Crystal..discus should hook up.


 
She won't hook up with Ippy scum lol.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Hmmm talking about low socio economic areas and mixing them in with personal shots? Quite low. However, if you did your homework on me, like I did on you, you'd know I'm a recent Ipswich resident. The location is halfway between Brisbane (where my GF studies) and Gatton, (where I study), so it makes sense.
> 
> I guess because you're taking shots at certain areas, you've been spoon fed your wordly intelligence by your rich parents and the stand up chaps at the highest paid institutions in the country. On ya mate.
> 
> I'm eating a big easter bunny, so I'm not replying for a while. I admit to my posts being a bit childish toward the end, sorry if that offended anyone (except you, Crystal  lol jokes, if I offended you I apologise), but I think I have somewhat valid "speculations".


 
Yes, I come from a background of upper crust, rich, heterosexual parents who sent me to all the best schools in Brisbane, where I wore ribbons in my hair and talked boys with all my school girl chums. 

Nothing could be further from the truth... well, apart from the dating the Ipswich scum thing (call me crazy, but my ideal date isn't going to Players after getting high and wasted under the cinemas on Ellenborough Street.). And the research thing is just ****ing creepy man.

Here's a hint: I grew up in Lowood.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Yes, I come from a background of upper crust, rich, heterosexual parents who sent me to all the best schools in Brisbane, where I wore ribbons in my hair and talked boys with all my school girl chums.
> 
> Nothing could be further from the truth... well, apart from the dating the Ipswich scum thing. And the research thing is just ****ing creepy man.
> 
> ...


 
LOLOL You're really quite witty. I like it.

Don't flatter yourself, hun, the research was just me being curious about the reptiles you own, you won't see me at your window, so when you're having pillow fights with your school girl chums, don't bother drawing the curtains


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## saximus (Apr 5, 2011)

And this thread was going so well...


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

Originally Posted by *kaotikjezta* 

 
I have to partially agree with this, I was in a relationship with a woman for the formative years of my oldest sons life and I only found out recently what his emotions and feelings were back then. He is 27 now, and straight with 2 kids. He told me he had to suffer constant beratement at school, and he went to a supposedly very open community school in Birchgrove, he felt weird and like he wasn't the same as the other kids, he got teased and bullied until he fought back and he also never really accepted our relationship. He admitted he still does harbour resentment towards me for putting him through that. Having said that, the woman I was with was a nasty cow, she was jealous of him being my biological son and used to chuck a mental if we showed to much parent child affection. But the thing he hated the most was not being accepted by his peers.




Jay84 said:


> But this is what needs to change! This will only change when it becomes or is considered more of the 'norm'.
> 
> I am also not surprised if he didn't accept your relationship if she was a 'nasty cow' and was jealous of your son?!?! Maybe he would feel different about the situation if he was bought up by 2 loving gay parents, who loved him equally?


 
Have to agree, very similar thing could have happened in any relationship and could probably even be considered common where parents have seperated and found new partners of the opposite or same sex.


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

saximus said:


> And this thread was going so well...


 
Personally i wish every thread was like this!


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 5, 2011)

Fine, I apologise for **** flinging too. I get really upset knowing there are children out there who need homes, but people don't want to give them to a perfectly loving couple because they're the same gender. 

Inb4 social worker. I'm not, or going to be.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

saximus said:


> And this thread was going so well...


 
Sorry if I offended you, mate.


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## saximus (Apr 5, 2011)

No, no offence here. I was actually surprised it had made it ~12 pages before it turned into this. 
Australis these are definitely the most interesting ones to read (I love catching them before they get deleted) but I just hate it when a potentially interesting debate turns into an argument and gets closed by mum and dad (Fay and Colin ) _Im no ones dad champ _


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## Australis (Apr 5, 2011)

Well now thats all sorted gays can stick to being gay and even have kids
if they wish to torture themselves.

Lets solve the middle east conflict, whos in?


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## waruikazi (Apr 5, 2011)

Crystal..Discus said:


> Fine, I apologise for **** flinging too. I get really upset knowing there are children out there who need homes, but people don't want to give them to a perfectly loving couple because they're the same gender.
> 
> Inb4 social worker. I'm not, or going to be.



The adoption of children is a wildly separate issue that the Australian government needs to look into. It is nearly impossible for anyone in Australia to adopt a baby. I think the rates are along the lines of less than 500 babies a year are given new homes in Australia.

But that is another story.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 5, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Thanks for the insight and honesty.


I was beginning to think everyone had me on their ignore list, lol



Jay84 said:


> But this is what needs to change! This will only change when it becomes or is considered more of the 'norm'.
> 
> I am also not surprised if he didn't accept your relationship if she was a 'nasty cow' and was jealous of your son?!?! Maybe he would feel different about the situation if he was bought up by 2 loving gay parents, who loved him equally?


Thats why I said I partially agree, he doesn't have to worry now though she put me off women for life, haha


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## Jay84 (Apr 5, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> I was beginning to think everyone had me on their ignore list, lol


 
I commented on the previous page! lol

Or are you ignoring me? lol


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 5, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> I commented on the previous page! lol
> 
> Or are you ignoring me? lol


 I found that after I wrote the comment, I was away building a hatchy home


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## Dipcdame (Apr 5, 2011)

Ok, I havent read EVERY post on here, but a lot of it, there's just too much, I'd be here all night, but from what I have read, many are talking about whether gay couples should or shouldn't have children. My argument is, should some hetero couples have children????? Looking at the rate of births that have escalated since Costello's 'produce more babies for your country' and awarding a huge amount of money to even kids who do it for the money, it's debatable. 
Yet there are couples who yearn for children, wanting to give them loving stable homes with TWO parents, who usually are lifetime partners, and JUST as loving and caring as hetero couples, and some single parents.
Just because a person is gay doesn't wipe out the need to nurture young in many, and being brought up by gay couples doesn't mean the child will grow up gay, only open minded and more accepting than a lot of small minded people.
(Which would you rather, a child abused in a hetero relationship, or a child loved and cared for by gays??
I'm not saying here that this is the norm, most children are well loved, etc, but I speak hypothetically.)
Great debate here by the way!!


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't think many people (bar one) have questioned the ability of a homosexual couple to adequately raise a child and do so lovingly, and I completely agree... I think the majority of parents now days (I'm talking about young ones) don't even deserve to raise a goldfish.

I saw a young chick at the local shopping centre who looked like her water was about to break this afternoon. She had a smoke in her gob and was going at it like they were going out of fashion. I was going to woolworths to shop, so I was away for a while. When I came back outside she was still there with her group of derelict mates with another fag in her mouth. Who knows how many smokes she sucked back in the meantime...

Some people shouldn't have children. It seems a hardline view, but I think every couple/woman expecting a child should be evaluated. If they aren't up to par, then perhaps the child placed in better hands.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Some people shouldn't have children. It seems a hardline view, but I think every couple/woman expecting a child should be evaluated. If they aren't up to par, then perhaps the child placed in better hands.


And how do you suggest they evaluate them


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## saximus (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I saw a young chick at the local shopping centre who looked like her water was about to break this afternoon. She had a smoke in her gob and was going at it like they were going out of fashion. I was going to woolworths to shop, so I was away for a while. When I came back outside she was still there with her group of derelict mates with another fag in her mouth. Who knows how many smokes she sucked back in the meantime...


 lol was this at Riverlink? That place is full of them


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## kawasakirider (Apr 5, 2011)

saximus said:


> lol was this at Riverlink? That place is full of them


 
LOL yes, it was at Riverlink. They all hang out around the front doors directly in front of JB hifi.



> And how do you suggest they evaluate them



New legislation that allows a little bit of big brother-esque investigating. Once someone's knocked up they have their details registered and they are subject to random checks up until the child is of a certain age.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 5, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> New legislation that allows a little bit of big brother-esque investigating. Once someone's knocked up they have their details registered and they are subject to random checks up until the child is of a certain age.


Is this all women regardless of socio-economic background? And let me assure you there is nothing good about big brother type policing, it is never brought about for anything other than control.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 6, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> Is this all women regardless of socio-economic background? And let me assure you there is nothing good about big brother type policing, it is never brought about for anything other than control.


 
Yeah, it's for everyone, can't target a minority, as we've seen from this thread  Big brother is all about control. If the derro parents knew someone was watching and there would be consequences for their actions, they'd think twice.

I know a guy who is an absolute scumbag. Deals weed on a fairly large level. He's got 4 kids, two girls and two boys. They get sent to a private school to make everything look fine and dandy. He collects a disability pension from centerlink when he isn't disabled, his mrs collects one, too. They get money for the kids. We worked it out that between them they're on over $1500 a fortnight. Then there's the drug money on top...

So all this money, and private school education, yet the children drink water from the dog bowls in the back yard of their FILTHY house, they are exposed to the weed smoking, it isn't hidden from them. He KICKS his children and calls them C***s, (all of them are very young, two aren't old enough to attend school) and he manipulates a good woman I know who is on a pension legitimately for food, they usually get mac and cheese or maggi noodles.

This is prevalent in ****ty areas and I bet worse goes on.

I also know another fella who's daughter is covered in scabies, she attends school in filthy clothing and is constantly ridiculed. He abuses his son, and was giving his son weed before he was ten years old.

Surely homosexuals that want children would be far greater parents, but that isn't my reasoning behind being sceptical about it.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 6, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Yeah, it's for everyone, can't target a minority, as we've seen from this thread  Big brother is all about control. If the derro parents knew someone was watching and there would be consequences for their actions, they'd think twice.
> 
> I know a guy who is an absolute scumbag. Deals weed on a fairly large level. He's got 4 kids, two girls and two boys. They get sent to a private school to make everything look fine and dandy. He collects a disability pension from centerlink when he isn't disabled, his mrs collects one, too. They get money for the kids. We worked it out that between them they're on over $1500 a fortnight. Then there's the drug money on top...
> 
> ...


Well it is not just in those areas, my friends mother would pass any test they chose to give because she is a respected special needs teacher in Melbourne and lives in onne of the richest suburbs here but all my friends life she subjected her to physical and mental abuse to the point where my friend was a suicidal anorexic at the age of 14. No one believes she is anything but a caring mother woried sick about her daughter. She got pregnant by having an affair with a married man because she wanted someone to keep her company when she got old. The father has nothing to do with her barely because his wife resents her, he constantly goes to asia and brings back young women and is so pathetic that last time he took my friend to visit her grandmother in a home (she suffers dementia) she started abusing my friend because she thought she was one of his women who he has shamelessly taken there with him before. He is a very rich, well respected business man who would also pass any evaluation with flying colours, so you can see how these supposed evaluations target certain people and leave others alone.


----------



## kawasakirider (Apr 6, 2011)

Well at the age of 14 you'd hope the girl had the sense to seek help. ****ty situation though. My idea would target anyone with a kid up to a few years old. Granted, looks can be deceiving and people would slip through the cracks, but it would surely clean up a lot of filth.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 6, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Well at the age of 14 you'd hope the girl had the sense to seek help. ****ty situation though. My idea would target anyone with a kid up to a few years old. Granted, looks can be deceiving and people would slip through the cracks, but it would surely clean up a lot of filth.


No it wouldn't because the early intervention laws go on age, sexuality, race (aboriginal mainly) and wage. As for her seeking help at 14, people with eating disorders rarely acknowledge they have a problem until it is too late.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 6, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> No it wouldn't because the early intervention laws go on age, sexuality, race (aboriginal mainly) and wage. As for her seeking help at 14, people with eating disorders rarely acknowledge they have a problem until it is too late.


 

I'm not talking about early intervention laws that are already in place. I'm talking about a pipe dream in which EVERY parent was monitored until their child was a certain age. I wasn't talking about anorexia, specifically. I meant that if the girl was being abused emotionally than she should seek help.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 6, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I'm not talking about early intervention laws that are already in place. I'm talking about a pipe dream in which EVERY parent was monitored until their child was a certain age. I wasn't talking about anorexia, specifically. I meant that if the girl was being abused emotionally than she should seek help.


That sounds like 1984 to be, maybe they can just microchip us all and be done with it, I hope you never run for PM.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 6, 2011)

Lol it's nothing like 1984. Orwell told a tale of a population completely controlled by an omnipresent oppressor. This would be a random pop in, similar to that of a rental inspection. 

Is it a hardline? Hell yeah. Would it be effective in keeping the welfare of children in check? Bloody oath.

I'd make a cracker of a prime minister. Better than krud or gillard. The prOblem with politics is that the politicians are so worried about getting elected, they won't stand for anything that will ruffle any feathers. 

I'd start by fixing the health care system, and banning the burqa. I'd allow same sex marriage and I'd consider same sex adoption on a case to case basis. I'd also improve our healthcare system and have a decent crack at fixing queenslands piss poor roads.

Vote #1 kawasakirider

Joking... I have no interest whatsoever in politics, but if I was pm I'd implement those things.


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## mje772003 (Apr 6, 2011)

I hope people like this Australian Gay and Lesbian History article i found:
*On January 26th, 1788, Australia's First Fleet* arrives at Sydney Cove. 
The 11 ships carried 717 convicts, including 180 women. Some of the 
convicts had been convicted of sodomy and other homosexual acts, which 
normally carried life imprisonment on the "hulks" - the prison ships 
anchored in the Thames, or even the death penalty.

From the early 18th Century, the United Kingdom had developed its own 
distinct underground gay subculture, with men gathering secretly in 
so-called "Molly houses" - illegal bars and taverns that were the 
precursors of modern gay bars. Molly culture was closely associated with 
cross-dressing and drag, and rather than seeking out 'rough trade', most 
Mollies seemed to have preferred other effeminate men as partners. Of 
course, when civil society found out about the existence of the Molly 
houses, they were outraged, and a vigorous police crackdown ensued. When 
Mollies were arrested and thrown into London's floating prison hulks, 
they would have encountered an entirely darker kind of male-to-male 
sexuality - prison rape and sex traded for protection and favours.

During the First and Second Fleet sailings to Australia, little effort 
was made to segregate the young and vulnerable from the older men, and 
with prisoners sleeping six to each tiny cell, it's not hard to imagine 
what must have gone on. Later fleets corrected this problem - placing 
the younger men and teens in separated lodging.

The term Molly has been found in early accounts from the colony while 
others commented on the unseemliness of a certain class of convict - 
young men who gave themselves feminine nicknames and wore their hair in 
women's styles. With only 189 women convicts amongst the 1,373 British 
to land at Port Jackson, both would have found themselves in 
considerable demand - and this gender imbalance would not be corrected 
for many decades. Lesbianism among female convicts, kept mostly 
segregated from the males, is also recorded, but was viewed simply as a 
curiosity - girl-on-girl action not being viewed as real sex at the time.

These early days of the colony seem to have included a fairly lax 
attitude to male homosexuality. Although it's first governor,*Arthur 
Phillip*, stated the only two offences deserving death were murder and 
sodomy, the first trial for such a crime did not occur until 1796 and 
that penalty was not prescribed. Phillip even went so far as to say that 
sodomites should be given to cannibals to be eaten, writing,
/"I would wish to confine the criminal until an opportunity offered of 
delivering him to the natives of New Zealand, and let them eat him. The 
dread of this will operate much stronger than the fear of death."/

Despite this, the first recorded execution for a homosexual act did not 
occur until 1828, when *Alexander Brown*, chief officer on the whaling 
ship Royal Sovereign, and crewmember *Richard Lister* were ordered to 
hang by the neck by a Sydney court. Lister was given a last minute 
reprieve and deported from the colony, but Brown did not fair so well.

Gay convicts lucky enough to be sent to Norfolk Island (an otherwise 
notoriously harsh and remote penal settlement) during the rule of the 
prison reformer *Alexander Maconochie*, led a much different life. On an 
island known for its food shortages and harsh punishments, Maconochie 
instituted a regime based on reward and tolerance rather than cruelty. 
According to *Robert Stuart*, a magistrate who visited the island during 
Maconochie's rule, it was common for convicts to live together as 
couples - referring to each other as "husband and wife", and there may 
have been well over 100 such pairs on the island at any one time. Stuart 
observed, "These parties manifest as much eagerness for the society of 
each other as members of the opposite sex." Under Maconochie, convicts 
caught having sex still faced flogging but, compared to the rest of the 
British Empire, the punishment was mild.

Around this time, the colony's first known beat [cruising spot] was 
mentioned in the Sydney Gazette as being located at Mrs Macquarie's 
Chair [now a famous and respectable landmark in Sydney's Royal Botanical 
Gardens]. Formerly the favourite ship watching spot of Elizabeth, wife 
of the colony's sixth Governor, *Lachlan Macquarie*, by the 1830s it was 
reported to be unsafe because of the unsavoury acts occurring there. 
Reportedly, gay men were still cruising each other at the spot over a 
century later in the 1950s.

The last gay execution occurred in Tasmania in 1863, when a black South 
African convict named *Hendrick Witnalder* and an unnamed 14-year-old 
boy were charged with sodomy. The boy was eventually set free but 
Witnalder, of tiny stature, was hanged with weights tied to his feet in 
case his body was too light to break his neck.

Surprisingly, Australia's highest-ranking gay leader to date may have 
predated this. In 1859, *Robert Herbert *became the first Colonial 
Secretary (the equivalent of Premier) of Queensland. His Attorney 
General was *John Bramston* and both had lived together since meeting at 
Oxford University as students in the early 1850s. The two most powerful 
men in the state shared a grand house and gardens they built together 
named "Herston" - a combination of their last names. Their friendship 
lasted over 50 years during which they were rarely apart. Herbert's 
explanation for his lifelong bachelorhood:
/"It does not seem to me reasonable to tell a man who is happy and 
content, to marry a woman who may turn out to be a great disappointment". /

Looking back, it seems odd people didn't ask questions but during this 
period, and right up until World War I, presumably straight men were 
allowed a closeness and affection for each other rarely seen today. 
Referred to by historians as "romantic friendships", it was not uncommon 
for such men to write what would today seem like love letters to each 
other and to pose for portraits together holding hands or embracing - 
even reclining in each other's arms on couches. Many of these 
friendships were only that but they must have presented the perfect 
cover for gay men of the time.

And the "special friendships" were not confined to the ruling class. In 
a harsh land, where men spent much of their time away from towns and 
cities and women, alone with another man or two for company, the custom 
of "mateship" arose. A man's friend was referred to as "me mate" or 
"his mate," and it was tacitly understood that they were more than just 
friends - more like friends with benefits. "Me good mate" or "His good 
mate" was an unspoken acknowledgment that it was more than just a sexual 
convenience the two were together - that they were lovers in the full 
sense, real "mates."


----------



## Australis (Apr 6, 2011)

It will never feel the same saying "mate" 






















:|


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## Jay84 (Apr 6, 2011)

That is a really interesting article!

I was just watching the documentary about the Stonewall Riots the other week. Amazing story.


----------



## Smithers (Apr 6, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> That is a really interesting article!
> 
> I was just watching the documentary about the Stonewall Riots the other week. Amazing story.



Agree Jay a good read and the Stonewall Riots a great show of strength and solidarity to say enough is enough.For me it's really an insight into how far we have come in getting more exceptance and equality. As a volunteer for Aid Action council I have heard and seen a bit of hardship for some out there in regard to discrimination for this or that. Unless your in the know you don't get to see or hear alot of what goes on out there, that I find is the hurdle to getting acceptance in the larger community and or having them understanding how it feels to be not excepted or abused one way or another. Last yr the Labour Government changed 85 laws that excluded same sex discrimination with recognised partnerships etc (possibly for tax purposes) But none the less steps toward more acceptance and equality. I truely feel as the next generations come through and the older thoughts and beliefs will die off, we won't be having this conversation to much more other than a reflection of what our community did for our following GLBTI teenagers and adults, lets hope. 

Lastly on Sunday the 15th May is the 28th International AIDS Candlelight Memorial Ceremony, come and stand in solidarity with each other, HIV+ and HIV-, in Australia and around the world to remember and reaffirm our commitment to responding to the HIV epidemic.


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## Syn2554 (Apr 6, 2011)

smithers said:


> lastly on sunday the 15th may is the 28th international aids candlelight memorial ceremony, come and stand in solidarity with each other, hiv+ and hiv-, in australia and around the world to remember and reaffirm our commitment to responding to the hiv epidemic.


where?!?! :d

I meant  not :d lol
FANTASTIC article, btw.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 6, 2011)

yeah great article.

And congrats on being the most liked thread on APS. that must equate to you guys reaching a fairly wide audience and possibly moving just a tiny step forward to the recognition and equality you deserve.


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## Smithers (Apr 6, 2011)

Syn2554 said:


> where?!?! :d
> 
> I meant  not :d lol
> FANTASTIC article, btw.



All good  Not sure where your memorial is going to be located in QLD. We have one here in Canberra. My invitation was for all to join weather it's at a location or you could register to start one of your own vigil


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## Recharge (Apr 6, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Yeah, it's for everyone, can't target a minority, as we've seen from this thread  Big brother is all about control. If the derro parents knew someone was watching and there would be consequences for their actions, they'd think twice.
> 
> I know a guy who is an absolute scumbag. Deals weed on a fairly large level. He's got 4 kids, two girls and two boys. They get sent to a private school to make everything look fine and dandy. He collects a disability pension from centerlink when he isn't disabled, his mrs collects one, too. They get money for the kids. We worked it out that between them they're on over $1500 a fortnight. Then there's the drug money on top...
> 
> ...


 
so take photos and report them perhaps? if you KNOW someone is cheating the system, and you do nothing, you're as bad as them.

even if you can't prove the cheating, if you can take photos of him abusing his children, then they're in deep do do, to start acting instead of enabling.


----------



## MChaz (Apr 6, 2011)

Lol I'm going to actually answer the original question on this thread.

How does this personally affect me?
I personally think its disgusting that people are getting hated on for who they love.
It does not affect me in a bad way at all. It does not impare my judgement of people, it does not impare my view of society except that a majority of people are ignorant.

I can't believe we are still stuck in a kind of society that doesn't accept people for who they are.
We've accepted african-americans haven't we?
But of course, there will still be those who are racist and narrowminded.
I'm sure a lot of you (including myself) get hated on for owning reptiles... Something we can't get our head around as being 'wrong', but more of a love and hobby and yes, lifestyle.

OF COURSE it all goes back to religion!
As does every law if you look into it.... You shall not steal, you shall not this, you shall not that...
Most of those are now laws... 

I personally think the government needs to get with the times... we aren't in robes and sandals anymore!


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## benjamind2010 (Apr 6, 2011)

It's a strange paradox today, but even still it's much better than it was a few short years ago. Judging someone for their sexuality is as bad as judging someone for how they look, clothe, or what they eat or what religion they belong to. If we can take religion out of issues such as abortion and IVF, single motherhood and use of embryos for research surely we can take religion out of homosexuality?

I'm straight myself, but I once had a good friend who I knew was gay, but I simply ignored his status and bought stuff off him and sold stuff to him, I didn't even comment. I just acted as though he was straight because it isn't really any of my business what he does in private anyway. It's nigh on time for the government to get their calloused fingers out of our bedrooms. We've simply had enough of their crap and now that Labor is in control of the federal govt maybe we should get rid of every last law against gays. In this day and age there is little point in even keeping these laws - I'd say most of them are ignored and not even enforced and you have to ask yourself why they are not enforced.


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## sacred_DUC (Apr 6, 2011)

meh discrimination 

some thing should never be changed or altered to suit a crying few.
santity of marriage/parenthood-- 1 mum female/1 dad male base nucleus family
IVF/fertility treatment-- defeating the natural population control

unfortuately we live in a world forgetting what were we come from modern science is gonna be the end of us

apologies for my blunt straightfoward opinion


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## killimike (Apr 6, 2011)

I don't respect the santity of marriage, and the nucleus family is a modern invention....

Shooting poor spellers, or 80 year olds , is also a natural form of population control 

No apologies for a facetious opinion.


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## Smithers (Apr 6, 2011)

sacred_DUC said:


> meh discrimination
> 
> some thing should never be changed or altered to suit a crying few.
> santity of marriage/parenthood-- 1 mum female/1 dad male base nucleus family
> ...



As I stated in my earlier post,..it's the next generations that will eventually overcome these archaic misguided beliefs.

IVF is aound 15% successful and at 4-5grand a go not many are jumping on the band wagon to do so.

Do you miss the Sullivans on tv too?


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## HydroGoat (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm an IVF baby, and personally I'm quite glad it exists 

EDIT: I just realised, IVF MUST CREATE GAY BABIES!

BURN IT!


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## Braidotti (Apr 7, 2011)

Alot of the focus in this threads seems to be at Gay men.

But if you`re a single man, then you should be happy that there is alot of gay men around, because it means more single women and you dont have to compete with them.

All you have to do is look at the names and faces thread = If Jay84 wasnt gay he would steal all the women.

( Sorry to bring you into this Jay84 but, you have like 100 pics in the above thread and most of them showing off your abs, and I cant compete with that, so please stay gay )


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## Laghairt (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah, Jay is a sexy dude.


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## saximus (Apr 7, 2011)

Braidotti said:


> Alot of the focus in this threads seems to be at Gay men.
> 
> But if you`re a single man, then you should be happy that there is alot of gay men around, because it means more single women and you dont have to compete with them.
> 
> ...


 Hahaha this made me laugh. Mostly because it's true


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## abnrmal91 (Apr 7, 2011)

Yer we are just mer mortals. Unlike jay84 lol


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## Jay84 (Apr 7, 2011)

Hahahahaha....... good point there braidotti! More girls for the straight guys lol.

Thanks all for the compliments hahaha.

The reason i posted so many pics in the names and faces thread was because i posted a couple and i received a few quite nasty PM's from a few members on here, mainly homophobic idiotic comments. As anyone that knows me personally would know, this just fuelled my fire and i just kept posting...... and posting...... and posting hahaha. It just turned into a bit of a joke with me and Waruikazi. I found it quite amusing lol.


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## saximus (Apr 7, 2011)

lol I wondered what the deal was with that. My favourite quote from that thread is still: 
Zeezza: "Chicken legs has very nice arms"
Gordo: "Yeah I'm sure Chicken Legs's boyfriend agrees"


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## waruikazi (Apr 7, 2011)

I dunno Jay, that thread was serious business! 

I couldn't beleive the hate that some of those pics brought out in some people! 



Jay84 said:


> Hahahahaha....... good point there braidotti! More girls for the straight guys lol.
> 
> Thanks all for the compliments hahaha.
> 
> The reason i posted so many pics in the names and faces thread was because i posted a couple and i received a few quite nasty PM's from a few members on here, mainly homophobic idiotic comments. As anyone that knows me personally would know, this just fuelled my fire and i just kept posting...... and posting...... and posting hahaha. It just turned into a bit of a joke with me and Waruikazi. I found it quite amusing lol.


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## Dipcdame (Apr 7, 2011)

The only thing I have against gays is when I see photos of some real HUNKS in the paper, and magazines, or on tv, and I think geez ................... WHAT a WASTE!!!!!!


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 7, 2011)

Dipcdame said:


> The only thing I have against gays is when I see photos of some real HUNKS in the paper, and magazines, or on tv, and I think geez ................... WHAT a WASTE!!!!!!


 LOL, when I worked in the male revue show and some of the gay guys did their thing and the girls would go off their heads...we always used too laugh and say IF ONLY THEY KNEW"...funny stuff!! 
I do remember one guy I knew who was ex-manpower and I saw him do a show (he didn't know I was there) at a mixed club (gay/straight) on Oxford St in sydney....put it this way I thought he was straigt until I saw him do his act as a surprise birthday present for a gay guy at the club...lol He was one to turn the chicks wild! Another was the best looking guy I have seen and the gils literally screamed theiur heads off when seeing him...he was from the US and worked as one of the Chippendale waiters before coming to Australia, he was great guy, but couldn't keep his snake in his pants with both men & women and unfortunately the poor bugger died of aids. I think this dude was to go this way because of the way he lived his life!!


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## Chris1 (Apr 7, 2011)

Archaeologists find 'gay caveman'

i thought of this thread when i saw this headline,...so here it is,..


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## SYNeR (Apr 8, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> This could be a whole new thread!


 
Indeed. All the statistics I've seen show gay parents are just as good (sometimes better) than straight parents.
The only disadvantage is that they tend to be bullied more for having gay parents.



Australis said:


> Sociologists would give anything to prove it stemmed from social factors, they hate biology  (and all real science laughs at them lol)


 
Yea, Steven Pinker's book 'The Blank Slate' did a terrific job at tearing down hard line nurture theory. Apparently real science is actually sexist and supports patriarchy.. Plenty of lefty feminists like that who get all emotional and conspiratorial without ANY evidence or valid explanation.



kawasakirider said:


> I'm not going to get into the nitty grittie's of biology on a forum mate. It is a biological reason, and it has to do with hormones.


 
Or, to be more specific and correct, it is believed (again, there's nothing conclusive) prenatal exposure to hormones not only shapes the development of the reproductive system, but also sexuality of the developing brain. The second-to-forth digit ratio of fingers is believed to be an indicator of prenatal hormone exposure.

If it was purely hormonal, sexuality / orientation could be easily changed. It can't. Even if it could, why should it?


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## HydroGoat (Apr 8, 2011)

kawasaki, considering it is not completely known what "causes" homosexuality (if much at all), how can you keep repeating that line?


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## Recharge (Apr 8, 2011)

Dipcdame said:


> The only thing I have against gays is when I see photos of some real HUNKS in the paper, and magazines, or on tv, and I think geez ................... WHAT a WASTE!!!!!!


 
it's not a waste for the other gay men though ahha jealousy is such a curse  
and really, what hope do most normal people (and I mean pure attractive level) have of ever getting a really nice looking person? (keep in mind nice and attractive are purely objective terms) 

me being Bi, I can't understand how either side can be so picky ;P lol
spread the joy you selfish buggers


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## gillsy (Apr 8, 2011)

LOL Recharge back from the dead. How have you been.


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## Smithers (Apr 8, 2011)

An old quote I heard which was a reversal of one thing we glbti hear, I thought was classic,...I think it was a comedian who said it.

"I don't mind you straights, just as long as you act gay around us" Heterophobia, lol


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## gillsy (Apr 8, 2011)

Smithers said:


> An old quote I heard which was a reversal of one thing we glbti hear, I thought was classic,...I think it was a comedian who said it.
> 
> "I don't mind you straights, just as long as you act gay around us" Heterophobia, lol



Smithers, what is the i in GLBTI, it's actually GLBTQ.

And I'm against GLBTQ anyway, it's so hard to say in a presentation when your saying it at least once a paragraph, we need an acronym that spells a word so it's easier to say!


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## SYNeR (Apr 8, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Smithers, what is the i in GLBTI, it's actually GLBTQ.
> 
> And I'm against GLBTQ anyway, it's so hard to say in a presentation when your saying it at least once a paragraph, we need an acronym that spells a word so it's easier to say!



I = Intersex

It's insane how long I've seen that acronym at times with the way people find other letters to tack on the end


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## gillsy (Apr 8, 2011)

Well 'I' isn't included in the official one for Mardi Gras or ACON. First time i've heard of it.


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 8, 2011)

Recharge said:


> me being Bi, I can't understand how either side can be so picky ;P lol
> spread the joy you selfish buggers


 LOL "EVERYBODY loves you when your Bi"!!!


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## shell477 (Apr 8, 2011)

Im surprised nobody has been suspended yet, although there has been quite some heated arguments it has remained fairly non-abusive.

I am also surprised this thread hasnt been closed yet. 

It definitely went off track but I did get LOTS of useful insight


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## saximus (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah I was surprised the blow up between Kawasaki and Crystal stayed. Like you say it's actually a really interesting, insightful thread and since nobody in particular has been targeted there's no problem with a bit of heated discussion IMO


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## gillsy (Apr 8, 2011)

removed comment


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## saximus (Apr 8, 2011)

"Reason: because it was stupid."
lol come on Gillsy I'm sure it wasn't that bad


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## Smithers (Apr 8, 2011)

SYNeR said:


> I = Intersex
> 
> It's insane how long I've seen that acronym at times with the way people find other letters to tack on the end



Yeah I had to ask what the I was myself..lol A transgender flatmate told me a while back. I have noticed on occasion the GLBTQI is slightly altered to suit the particular group that is commenting like in ads for lesbian groups LGBTQI and why not I say  

I am also amazed this thread continues to excist past that awkward segment between those two mentioned and wanna thank the mods for not closing it and letting continue with some informative thoughts ideas.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

@Recharge, or anyone else that cares to answer. Does being BI mean you can love both men and women emotionaly or is it purely a physical thing? Obviously for gay people it runs a lot deeper than just physical attraction.

I gather that a lot of gay guys and gals had hetero relationships before they decided to be true with themselves and their sexuality, did any of you love your hetero partners in the same sense as you love your gay partners?

I know I upset a few people, and although it wasn't my intention I knew my beliefs would, however I think there is some positive to be taken from my posts, that is, they have given you the opportunity to put your beliefs and ideas forward about a subject that is obviously important to the wider gay community.
I am not sold on whether gay couples should be parents, or should be allowed access to adoption/ivf etc, but I will say that I am questioning some of the reasons I feel this way towards gay couples raising children.
I don't believe my views are discriminatory but if others feel they are I make know apologies. As a community whether we are gay, bi, straight, black, white or whatever, we have a responsibility as adults to protect our children, not just our own, all of them. As a community we need to install and maintain laws, standards, guidelines and policies which help insure that our children are given the best opportunity to grow up in an environment that is condusive to their good health and wellbeing. I believe the rights of children come before the rights of gay couples because they are depending on us to make the right decision for them.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe gay couples should be given the same opportunities afforded everyone else to raise their own families, or maybe I'm right. Should we give ourselves, as a society, the opportunity to fail our children even further? People have used the argument that there is drugies and abusers etc raising children, agreed, but does this mean we should give society another opportunity to fail them?

I understand that some of you are passionate advocates for gay rights and equality, but to those that felt abusing me would help get their message across you are mistaken, in all likely hood if you react in the same way everytime someone with similar views to me speaks up, they'll just rally against you even harder


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## kawasakirider (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> @Recharge, or anyone else that cares to answer. Does being BI mean you can love both men and women emotionaly or is it purely a physical thing? Obviously for gay people it runs a lot deeper than just physical attraction.
> 
> I gather that a lot of gay guys and gals had hetero relationships before they decided to be true with themselves and their sexuality, did any of you love your hetero partners in the same sense as you love your gay partners?


 
That^^^^^^^ is an EXTREMELY interesting question. Good thinking.


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## Snowman (Apr 8, 2011)

This poll is interesting... 2063 for gay marriage and 11552 against!
MPs back same-sex marriage motion | Courier Mail


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## Smithers (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> @Recharge, or anyone else that cares to answer. Does being BI mean you can love both men and women emotionaly or is it purely a physical thing? Obviously for gay people it runs a lot deeper than just physical attraction.
> 
> I gather that a lot of gay guys and gals had hetero relationships before they decided to be true with themselves and their sexuality, did any of you love your hetero partners in the same sense as you love your gay partners? Yes I was married for 12 yrs and have come out only 4 yrs ago. It was mainly the pressure from society family and the like stopped me being who I always wanted to be. I loved my wife for who she is as a person and was attracted to her being and all her fantastic attributes but of course the over all it's not the same, just put yourself in the same situation in your mind you just know it's not right for you.
> 
> ...


 I guess when you get a chance to voice your opinon on a subject that not to many really want to talk or hear about you jump in both feet to get your point across. It may be that because the shoe's not on the other foot you don't totally understand how it feels to be suppressed discriminated against.I agree with you abuse is abuse it solves nothing and makes things worse for all.


Thanks for asking Steve and cheers for admitting your thoughts and or beliefs are having a check up in your mind, nice to hear.



Snowman said:


> This poll is interesting... 2063 for gay marriage and 11552 against!
> MPs back same-sex marriage motion | Courier Mail



2064 for now


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## gillsy (Apr 8, 2011)

Steve I'm the first one to attack your views however with the last pos the fact you are at least questioning your stance is a good thing. And weather you support it or not that's all we ask. 

There are several 'levels' of bi, some can form relationships with male and female partners some form relationships with 1 sex and pure physical with the other that's the main type however I believe some but not all would have relationships with the same sex but straight relationships being socially acceptable it's easier that path. 

I have always been gay, never had a straight relationship except one at high school but more so I could hang with the gf best friends bf we use to go skinny dipping in the local creek - so I had other motives


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## sesa-sayin (Apr 8, 2011)

I joined this reptile site to stop me spending too much time on "those other sites "............who would ever believe it ?


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## shell477 (Apr 8, 2011)

what are you trying to say sesa-sayin? i dont quite follow...


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

My reasons are hard to put into words I have touched on them in previous posts but I'll try and elaborate further.

Will you agree that depression, suicide, drug abuse, victimization, harrasment and discrimination are all higher amongst gay people, in particularly men?
Now bring a child with no say in how they are bought up into the equation. From experience (I'm a father) I know that at 4and 5yo they are already getting an understanding of what society sees as normal, most have a mum and dad, they regularly see hetero couples on TV and while out shopping, they set up families with dolls and teddys etc etc. 
Before they have even walked into a class room they have probably already asked why they don't have either a mum or a dad, The parents even with best intentions on bringing up their child, in a round abouts way (we are talking too 5yos) go's on to explains that although a little bit different from most families we are still normal, which is fine until they go to class and introduce their dads to their friends, who in turn go home and tell their parents that their new class mate has same sex parents, which quite likely results in muttered words in front of that child that would be considered highly offensive to gay people, the child then takes this back to the school yard, tells the other kids what his parents said and the cycle of bullying, confusion, possible drug abuse etc etc begins.

You can tell me all you like that you will bring up kids in a loving and open minded environment etc,etc but as a parent myself I don't see why you would want to get your child of to that kind of start in life.
discrimination and persecution based on sexuality is wrong, but unfortunately it's a fact of life and a gay couple that brings a child into that environment is going to be a party to that childs suffering. 
There are reasons for the high rates of depression/suicide etc among gay men and they're the same reasons that a child is at greater risk of developing these problems if they're subjected to the same treatment

i KNOW i WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED GROWING UP THE SON OF TWO DADS


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## shell477 (Apr 8, 2011)

Steve, I felt that we had all kind of come to the end of that particular discussion.
I think you have put your point across, which is perfectly ok, but can we stop now?


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

I was asked the question


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## shell477 (Apr 8, 2011)

Oh ok sorry that was a bit unfair of me.


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## notechistiger (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> i KNOW i WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED GROWING UP THE SON OF TWO DADS



I'm sure you wouldn't have minded at all, since you'd be far more open-minded and accepting then you are now


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

LOL Could it be that it is actually me who is being open minded and the narrow view is that these children are going to grow up well adjusted individuals free from the depressions and torments suffered by their well intentioned parents?


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## notechistiger (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> LOL Could it be that it is actually me who is being open minded and the narrow view is that these children are going to grow up well adjusted individuals free from the depressions and torments suffered by their well intentioned parents?



Do you even have any evidence that children will be worse off raised by two gay parents versus the stereotypical man and wife? Where's the statistics that children raised with two gay parents will have a higher rate of depression and suicide? All I'm seeing is a narrow minded opinion that advocates that children of rape victims and drug addicted parents (as an example) will be better off over children raised by gay parents simply because they're "normal".

Just my opinion, of course.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

Statistics show that rates of suicide, drugabuse and depression are high amongst gay men I made the assumption that there would be a high probability of this amongst these children given they would be subjected to the same prejudices and discrimantions that there parents suffered as well as confusion over their own sexuality, I never said that this is how it would always be but asked the question should we take the risk.

Please show me whereabouts I advocate that victims of abuse and and drug addicted parents would be better of than the children of same sex couples. Don't put words in my mouth (so to speak)


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## kawasakirider (Apr 8, 2011)

Did no one read kaotikjeztas post after I made an assumption that kids growing up with homosexual parents would be ridiculed? She said there was validity to my statement and her son went through this sort of torment. Maybe you guys have forgotten what kids are like. Sure, kids can be ridiculed for a mole on their face, but parents can't help that. People that want to look after kids, but know the child would be ridiculed because they are looking after them, should take a step back and think. 

It would be the same as a person that could hardly afford to feed themselves thinking whether or not it would be a good idea to raise a child. Mental health is just as important as physical health, and if a child is ridiculed for its whole school life, that can translate to many problems in adult hood. Things don't need to be proven by science to be common sense.

I know what children are like, and they can be brutal.


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## waruikazi (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> My reasons are hard to put into words I have touched on them in previous posts but I'll try and elaborate further.
> 
> Will you agree that depression, suicide, drug abuse, victimization, harrasment and discrimination are all higher amongst gay people, in particularly men?
> Now bring a child with no say in how they are bought up into the equation. From experience (I'm a father) I know that at 4and 5yo they are already getting an understanding of what society sees as normal, most have a mum and dad, they regularly see hetero couples on TV and while out shopping, they set up families with dolls and teddys etc etc.
> ...



Steve, you are thinking of this issue all wrong.

I've been working for the last 8 years with kids who come from broken homes, have no parents and live in absolute poverty. I don't have a statistic to back me up here but i don't think i really need one. I can tell you the The rates of the children growing up in the environments i just mentioned are far more likely to not get an education, commit crime, go to jail and commit suicide than gay people. 

The children who are adopted have no homes and no parents. Their best hope is to be placed into a family that will love them and help them grow into a person that is happy and contributes to society. Living with gay parents may not be perfect, it may even suck balls at times but it would be much better than growing up without any parents at all. 

Think of it as making the best of a bad situation.


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## m.punja (Apr 8, 2011)

Would it be descrimination if I asked to open a nightclub where only straight people were allowed? Because to my understanding there are gay only clubs throughout Australia. Would I be descriminating if i opened a primary school only for Australian Children? Because there are schools in my area that only allow children of middle east decent and to my knowledge only teach there ways. How about if i made a retirement viliage for only white people? Because as we speek the aboriginals in my area are building a retirment village where only aboriginals are welcome. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if these things happen but why when the reverse is happening people jump up and down and scream descrimination? I understand descrimination happens but it happens to everyone and if people had better stuff to do with there time we'd all realize the world isn't as bad as we fear. True, some issues do need to be delt with but I don't think it's half as bad as people carry on about. A park opened recently where only midgets could work, it was some theme park filled with hired midgets who chose to work with people like themselves and have a blast along the way, but a group lobeyed against it saying it was descriminating against the midgets, one person I saw complaining on behalf of the midgets was six foot tall, err, hello??? I like the way you made sure you weren't trying to be politically incorrect but doesn't our goverment endorse racism. The few times I've been in trouble with the police they've asked me if i was of aboriginal or non aboriginal decent, is there a right and wrong answere here? Dont we all want to be treated as equals? I hope no one takes anything of what I've said as offencive, I have no intentions of descriminating against anyway. As for gay's, I've met and made friends with a number of both male and female gays over the years, some are still very close friends and never had any drama with that, so long as people respect me and my way of life I'm happy to return to gesture.


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## Smithers (Apr 8, 2011)

m.punja said:


> Would it be descrimination if I asked to open a nightclub where only straight people were allowed? Because to my understanding there are gay only clubs throughout Australia.
> 
> Not sure if that's true, how would they police this??
> 
> ...


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## notechistiger (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Please show me whereabouts I advocate that victims of abuse and and drug addicted parents would be better of than the children of same sex couples. Don't put words in my mouth (so to speak)



Those examples were perhaps a little too strong. Although I'm a little unsure what your choice would be between a gay couple and a drug addicted family for a child to be adopted into.

There are plenty of couples out there who should not ever be allowed to breed, yet they're fully allowed to bring children into broken homes or into lives of abuse because they're straight? Why should they get precedence over two gay people that will love and cherish any children they're "allowed" to raise? What a twisted world we live in.

I cannot think of any better parents to raise open-minded and accepting children then a gay couple. Who better to teach a child about the hardships of life and how to deal with them? Certainly not the homophobes out there that think sexuality is a valid reason to judge someone as unfit, for anything at all.




m.punja said:


> Because to my understanding there are gay only clubs throughout Australia.



I have no problem with discriminated-against minorities wanting a sanctuary in this world full of hate. My opinion, of course. I'm sure others will disagree.


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## Southside Morelia (Apr 8, 2011)

notechistiger said:


> I cannot think of any better parents to raise open-minded and accepting children then a gay couple. Who better to teach a child about the hardships of life and how to deal with them?


 Not entirely true...Straight, intelligent, accepting and realistic parents can do the same!  
Sometimes a persecuted and ill-treated sector of the community can express their opinions on their offspring, due to their treatment in society.
We as parents always have our opinions that we may, or may not speak out in anger or in conversation, which kids pick up on. I as a parent never try to preach what I think is right in controversial topics...hey my opinion is mine and not what is necessarily correct!!
It takes a very level headed Gay couple to teach their kid/s that their lifestyle is the norm and for that kid to go to school feeling like all the other kids in the playground. How does a parent NOT say that they have not been persecuted and for the kid to grow up and NOT feel morally obligated to their parents injustice? I would find that hard to deal with with if I was a Gay parent and would love to know how Gay parents with older kids manage this.


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## notechistiger (Apr 8, 2011)

Southside Morelia said:


> Not entirely true...Straight, intelligent, accepting and realistic parents can do the same!



Don't get me wrong, I do agree. However, there seems to be a much higher number of racist or discriminating straight people then there are gay people.



> I as a parent never try to preach what I think is right in controversial topics



I personally think this should be the case in every household. However, you get things like religious families that think their way is the only right way and the children ultimately suffer for it.


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## Mudimans (Apr 8, 2011)

Steve1 I really enjoy your input into this thread and have been interested to read what you have to say. Of course you are entitiled to your opinion-everyone has one, and I find it interesting to hear the other side of things when it's not put in a ridiculing way. In your last post, you mentioned kids going home from school and mentioning 'two mummies' or 'two daddies' and I thought it was funny that the only problem you raised was that the parents would mutter words that the kids would take back to school. And here lies the problem!! I believe young kids would be perfectly accepting of this situation, it's when they go back and speak to adults who aren't so open minded that the think there's a problem with it. So maybe it's just a case of re-educating the adults to ensure these kids don't cop so much slack at school. I also believe though that kids will tease kids for ANYTHING at school. Sad but true!


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## lynfrog (Apr 8, 2011)

As a gay parent i dont see what the issue is in raising kids in a gay relationship. i was born of straight parents, have straight siblings, straight friends, and even thought i was straight for a long time. so i dont see that me being gay is such a big deal- its not like i live in an enclave- i live in a world of mixed people- open or closed minded, consservative, liberal, poor or well off- and a child learns acceptance and values from thier parents or caring adults close to them, no matter what thier sexual orientation. The paradox is those who think gays are people 'over there' somewhere- they are the nurses, doctors, ambos, teachers, office workers,labourers, farmers, busdrivers, or police that you see and talk to every day. 1 in 10 people are homosexual!


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## gillsy (Apr 8, 2011)

sesa-sayin said:


> I joined this reptile site to stop me spending too much time on "those other sites "............who would ever believe it ?


 
Quick what's your nic on 'those other sites' lol



steve1 said:


> Statistics show that rates of suicide, drugabuse and depression are high amongst gay men I made the assumption that there would be a high probability of this amongst these children given they would be subjected to the same prejudices and discrimantions that there parents suffered as well as confusion over their own sexuality, I never said that this is how it would always be but asked the question should we take the risk.
> 
> Please show me whereabouts I advocate that victims of abuse and and drug addicted parents would be better of than the children of same sex couples. Don't put words in my mouth (so to speak)


 
No we have high rates of depression because we believe our friends and family wont accept us.



m.punja said:


> Would it be descrimination if I asked to open a nightclub where only straight people were allowed? Because to my understanding there are gay only clubs throughout Australia. Would I be descriminating if i opened a primary school only for Australian Children? Because there are schools in my area that only allow children of middle east decent and to my knowledge only teach there ways. How about if i made a retirement viliage for only white people? Because as we speek the aboriginals in my area are building a retirment village where only aboriginals are welcome. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if these things happen but why when the reverse is happening people jump up and down and scream descrimination? I understand descrimination happens but it happens to everyone and if people had better stuff to do with there time we'd all realize the world isn't as bad as we fear. True, some issues do need to be delt with but I don't think it's half as bad as people carry on about. A park opened recently where only midgets could work, it was some theme park filled with hired midgets who chose to work with people like themselves and have a blast along the way, but a group lobeyed against it saying it was descriminating against the midgets, one person I saw complaining on behalf of the midgets was six foot tall, err, hello??? I like the way you made sure you weren't trying to be politically incorrect but doesn't our goverment endorse racism. The few times I've been in trouble with the police they've asked me if i was of aboriginal or non aboriginal decent, is there a right and wrong answere here? Dont we all want to be treated as equals? I hope no one takes anything of what I've said as offencive, I have no intentions of descriminating against anyway. As for gay's, I've met and made friends with a number of both male and female gays over the years, some are still very close friends and never had any drama with that, so long as people respect me and my way of life I'm happy to return to gesture.


 
Nope straight people are allowed in any gay clubs, they refuse some for our safety. We have gay clubs the same way you have asian orientated clubs, house clubs, strip clubs.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

I personally think this should be the case in every household. However said:


> We all have prejudices often without realizing.
> 
> Maybe my views toward same sex parents would be different if I had grown up with different role models.
> 
> ...


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## Mudimans (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Thanks Mudimans, The only problem I raised was with the parents because thats where the problem stems from. It's up to us to help mould kids attitudes by teaching tolerance and acceptance. I guess you could say that my concern is not with same sex couples ability to parent but more to do with the rest of societies ability to deal with it, the fallout being that children will continue to suffer for these prejudices.
> I agree that kids will always find something. I was bullied, I was a bully and I have seen bullying completely destroy lives through suicide and a life imprisonment


 
Love this!! That pretty much sums it up right there!!! But instead of not allowing same sex couples to have children-society needs to change!!


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## Smithers (Apr 8, 2011)

steve1 said:


> , I don't have a problem with minorities wanting a place to find sanctuary either, it's just a damn shame that we make them feel they have to
> 
> Music to my ears


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## benjamind2010 (Apr 8, 2011)

The thing I find so amusing is that although abortion has been legalized and normalized for the past 40 years we're still dealing with homophobia. It's very strange really.


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## sesa-sayin (Apr 9, 2011)

had already tried a couple of weeks ago, to see if the name "GILLSY " came up on any of "THOSE OTHER SITES ".... it didn't......sorry not to be as serious as everybody else....b


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## gillsy (Apr 9, 2011)

sesa-sayin said:


> had already tried a couple of weeks ago, to see if the name "gillsy " came up on any of "those other sites ".... It didn't......sorry not to be as serious as everybody else....b


 
lol,


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## Recharge (Apr 9, 2011)

steve1 said:


> @Recharge, or anyone else that cares to answer. Does being BI mean you can love both men and women emotionaly or is it purely a physical thing? Obviously for gay people it runs a lot deeper than just physical attraction.
> 
> I gather that a lot of gay guys and gals had hetero relationships before they decided to be true with themselves and their sexuality, did any of you love your hetero partners in the same sense as you love your gay partners?


 
that steve1 varies person to person, some can and some its just sexual attraction, even if one has feelings, one cannot always get out of social and paternal training in social interaction in society.
many a person has married or chosen to be with someone for other reasons than love.

I have loved frieds as strongly as I have partners in the past, it is different, but it can be just as strong, sometimes there is little difference at all.

some say love and friendship are worlds apart, that isn't so for all of us, different people experience such emotional connection in different ways
it depends on MANY factors, both biologically and from how and who you are.



Snowman said:


> This poll is interesting... 2063 for gay marriage and 11552 against!


 
that is in no way indicative of anything much, the courtier mail has a track record of not exactly being truthful in news for a start  
also, the population of Brisbane alone is over a million, the country 25ish million 15,000 votes is not even a percent.
you cant' exactly take this to a referendum either, it stands too far within basic human rights, and could lead a precedent of scary proportions.

either way, a secular government should have no power to decide who can or cannot get married (within a connecting adult union) even polygamy in my books, if people want to do it, they should be able to at their own risk (except for forced marriage on any religious or cultural grounds)




steve1 said:


> My reasons are hard to put into words I have touched on them in previous posts but I'll try and elaborate further.
> 
> Will you agree that depression, suicide, drug abuse, victimization, harrasment and discrimination are all higher amongst gay people, in particularly men?


yes, but this is a casual relationship, it is not indicative of the wider gay community, it is simply reported on more. you could just as easily parallel strait foot ball night clubs to reflect wider society as a whole, which you can easily see, isn't fair at all. 



> Now bring a child with no say in how they are bought up into the equation. From experience (I'm a father) I know that at 4and 5yo they are already getting an understanding of what society sees as normal, most have a mum and dad, they regularly see hetero couples on TV and while out shopping, they set up families with dolls and teddys etc etc.
> Before they have even walked into a class room they have probably already asked why they don't have either a mum or a dad, The parents even with best intentions on bringing up their child, in a round abouts way (we are talking too 5yos) go's on to explains that although a little bit different from most families we are still normal, which is fine until they go to class and introduce their dads to their friends, who in turn go home and tell their parents that their new class mate has same sex parents, which quite likely results in muttered words in front of that child that would be considered highly offensive to gay people, the child then takes this back to the school yard, tells the other kids what his parents said and the cycle of bullying, confusion, possible drug abuse etc etc begins.


you could easily substitute colour of skin for sexuality in this case, even today, or religious beliefs or a few other things, all of which are combated with education, as it becomes more accepted and de vilified, there are less cases of bullying and other childhood problems, this is one of the most common arguments and also one of the silly, as almost all children are bullied as some point, content doesn't lessen or alter the harm to the child, it's only preconception of adults when the ponder the matter that changes the perceived level of damage.



> You can tell me all you like that you will bring up kids in a loving and open minded environment etc,etc but as a parent myself I don't see why you would want to get your child of to that kind of start in life.
> discrimination and persecution based on sexuality is wrong, but unfortunately it's a fact of life and a gay couple that brings a child into that environment is going to be a party to that childs suffering.
> There are reasons for the high rates of depression/suicide etc among gay men and they're the same reasons that a child is at greater risk of developing these problems if they're subjected to the same treatment
> 
> i KNOW i WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED GROWING UP THE SON OF TWO DADS


 
so are you saying any society group that are vilified or seen in a negative light shouldn't have children lest their children be harassed really, THINK about it, it's the same thing, regardless of reason, it's people who are picked on because they are different or act different or live different, if no one ever had children because of this, we wouldn't even BE a species, we'd have died out long ago.
people have children because they want to share their love and experience with a new generation, to try and shape and change society and continue evolution to some degree (though can and does have as big an impact as generics at this point of evolution).



> i KNOW i WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED GROWING UP THE SON OF TWO DADS


 you know that as you stand now, if you had grown up with it, you wouldn't even know.
heck, you may just as easily say the opposite depending on your parents. 



kawasakirider said:


> People that want to look after kids, but know the child would be ridiculed because they are looking after them, should take a step back and think.


 so every single parent in the entire world then?
LOL sorry dude, you really didn't think that one through very well.


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## Gecksta (Apr 9, 2011)

i am only 13 and do know some gay people and have worked with gay people i have know problem with them and i do not know why people do


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## Jen (Apr 10, 2011)

Didn't read the whole thread sorry, was a bit too much bitching going on... But one thing that gets me annoyed is the whole Gay marriage deal. If marriage is for the purpose of having children, and homosexual marriage is not allowed on the basis that a same sex couple can't/won't have children, then why are infertile people allowed to marry? Why are people with no intention of having children allowed to marry? Why are women past the age of menopause allowed to marry? It seems to me that a lot of the discrimination re same sex marriage comes down to Christianity and its bigoted adherents. If 'God' is love, why does Christianity demonstrate so much hatred?
BTW - I personally believe that people get married because they love each other, and sex/gender shouldn't be an issue.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

Recharge said:


> so every single parent in the entire world then?
> LOL sorry dude, you really didn't think that one through very well.


 
How so? Tell me how in a school yard full of children, a kid is going to be picked on because he has a mother AND a father? 

Now weigh up the likelyhood that he will be picked on because he's got a dad, and a mummy with a penis.

The same goes for EVERY sort of person. You make out like I'm targeting homosexuals entirely. If someone can't afford a child, don't have the bloody thing... If someone is a drug addict, don't have a damn child... If someone knows that their child will be ridiculed to the point of no return just because of who his parents are, they should seriously reconsider a child.



Jen said:


> Didn't read the whole thread sorry, was a bit too much bitching going on... But one thing that gets me annoyed is the whole Gay marriage deal. If marriage is for the purpose of having children, and homosexual marriage is not allowed on the basis that a same sex couple can't/won't have children, then why are infertile people allowed to marry? Why are people with no intention of having children allowed to marry? Why are women past the age of menopause allowed to marry? It seems to me that a lot of the discrimination re same sex marriage comes down to Christianity and its bigoted adherents. If 'God' is love, why does Christianity demonstrate so much hatred?
> BTW - I personally believe that people get married because they love each other, and sex/gender shouldn't be an issue.


 
People get married because they are deluded. 

As if a signed document means anything, other than difficulties down the road if it goes bad. It's a waste of money, why can't people just be partners?



BaileyR said:


> i am only 13 and do know some gay people and have worked with gay people i have know problem with them and i do not know why people do


 
I concur


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## notechistiger (Apr 10, 2011)

> How so? Tell me how in a school yard full of children, a kid is going to be picked on because he has a mother AND a father?


He's referring to the fact that every child is going to be picked on for some reason or another. Parents bring children into the world knowing they're going to be picked on for something, whether it be because they're black, fat, deformed, wearing glasses, or have buck teeth. Should all those parents be condemned for wanting to bring children into a world where they're almost certainly going to be bullied for one reason or another? Of course not. So why should gay people face that challenge? Really, the issues concerning gay couples and gay rights are outdated and wrong. People need to get their heads out of religious fairytales and catch up with the times  Alternatively, remove religion from politics. Would save a lot of hassles in the end, I think.

=D


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

Because parents of children have no control how dog ugly their children may or may not be. Gay people know before they get children that the child will be ridiculed.


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Because parents of children have no control how dog ugly their children may or may not be. Gay people know before they get children that the child will be ridiculed.


 That's a bad example because people who have children you may consider 'dog ugly' don't see their children as dog ugly because they don't see each other as dog ugly. Other people may perceive them that way, but obviously they don't perceive themselves or each other that way.


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## notechistiger (Apr 10, 2011)

You're missing the point. Children are _going_ to get ridiculed regardless. If it's not because the child has gay parents, it'll be because they're fat, or a different colour or for having glasses, etc., etc. Kids are cruel, it happens. It is not a valid reason for gay couples to not have children.


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> How so? Tell me how in a school yard full of children, a kid is going to be picked on because he has a mother AND a father?


for any reason what so ever that children do so, how is it you don't understand the simplest of human interaction at a young age?

social interaction alone is reason, human hierarchy being experimented with, influence from parents, other children, fear, learning boundaries of allowable interaction and attempting to assert dominance for just a start.

children and adults pick on each other because we are human, you cannot stop it, all you can do is educate and guide when it happens.




> Now weigh up the likelyhood that he will be picked on because he's got a dad, and a mummy with a penis.



no more a than if the other kid has different colour hair or a skin deformation, being smaller, being a different colour, being of a different social group or any millions of reasons in a chills mind, even if (more likely than anything else) they are perceived to be loved more in the aggressors mind.



> The same goes for EVERY sort of person. You make out like I'm targeting homosexuals entirely. If someone can't afford a child, don't have the bloody thing... If someone is a drug addict, don't have a damn child... If someone knows that their child will be ridiculed to the point of no return just because of who his parents are, they should seriously reconsider a child.



again, this would cover every parent and person on the planet, you simply cannot fathom for what reason your child could interact in a negative way with another (or adult for that matter)
it also goes against the single strongest thing of life it's self, to continue, genetic imperative. true thought almost NEVER comes to the mind when that is in play, we have the ability to choose how life plays out, we could have every single child greater then Einstein, but we don't because we are selfish, because we are driven by genetics over thought (unless we have an overwhelming mental ability).



> People get married because they are deluded.
> 
> As if a signed document means anything, other than difficulties down the road if it goes bad. It's a waste of money, why can't people just be partners?
> 
> I concur


people do 99.9% of every thing in life because they are self deluded lol, welcome to being a creature with three separate parts of their selves the ID, the personality and the super personality, and that's not even including genetic drive. 

I personalty see marriage is silly in inconsequential, but it's been a part of our society, part of what had bound it for most of the time humans have existed, well outside of the purview of any religion, partnering is a evolutionary trait to help further procreation, not for life mind you, only until the children are self viable, only since religion has formed has life mating come into play.

and procreation has never been solely of the parents alone, it has always been a community endeavour, again, it's only since (organised) religion has this changed.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 10, 2011)

I got bullied heaps as a kid (well really up until I was 15 or 16) just for being short. I was actually surprised that when I told people I was bi, the bullying, which had been trailing off, ceased completely. Whether it's just that we were all old enough to be mature about it or not, I don't know, but it was interesting that nobody ever gave me crap for it.

Kids will find something to bully about, it used to be because I read books (yeah, weird huh )


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

not weird at all, humans seem to have a lust for hating people for learning or having learned, its some sort of weird tall poppy syndrome.
while we roll around in all our wonderful technology, those who have and will give it to us are feared and hated because they "think they are better then us" (in the minds of the stupid and fearful) it's irony at it's best really.
I really don't understand how or why it works that way.
it's 1% uf humanity that has is at the point we're at, yet "nerds and geeks" are looked down upon, are segregated in schools and society, it's insanity.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 10, 2011)

I was actually saying it was "weird" to read books 

But I see how you read it that way


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## waruikazi (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Because parents of children have no control how dog ugly their children may or may not be. Gay people know before they get children that the child will be ridiculed.



Mr. Rider

I made a post, similar to this, directed at Steve. I'm going to do the same to you because i think your thinking about gay families adopting children is a bit mixed up. 

Babies that are eligible for adoption have no parents and are usually stuck in orphanages in third world countries. That makes life extremely difficult, these children are destined to not thrive or become functioning members of their society. The best hope they, have for a high quality of life, is to be adopted into families that love them. Regardless the sexual orientation of the parents. 

Call it the best of a bad situation.


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## Slo_fuzz (Apr 10, 2011)

This is getting pathetic...woah, I was afraid, scratch that, petrified of snakes until I was educated, and now I love them and they play a huge part in my daily life now. Maybe all of the homophobes need to get an education, fancy that, opening up and using their brains. Maybe then they will see we are all people FIRST. all deserving of the same rights, no question. This isnt a grey issue.


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## mje772003 (Apr 10, 2011)

Alot of people have the impression that gay couples all want to raise kids, not everyone wants to lead that path. But gay marriage should be allowed for the same reasons as hetro couples to signify a commitment and celebration of love between 2 people and shouldn't be judged by anyone. 

As Christians have many things that are so misconstrued in their dogma that breeds a society of hate and intolerance to anything that doesn't the mould of their beliefs. The bible does show that Christians should be tolerant and forgiving and not judgmental, but society has changed this or turn a blind eye to such beliefs. 

Things like " turn the other cheek" and "he how is without sin cast the first stone" are in the bible but Christians and other similar religions over look this as it doesn't meet their values. I should know as i was bought up the Christian way but now have my own spiritual beliefs.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

You guys are ALL validating my point.

Kids ARE cruel. Kids CAN be picked on for being fat, or for NO reason at all. Giving other kids a reason to pick on your child is different to your child being picked on for something you can't control. You CAN'T control if other people think your kid is dog ugly, YOU CAN control whether or not you put a child in a situation where it has to defend why his parents are homosexual.

No one can control whether or not a child is born and its looks are percieved in a negative light due to societal pressures and stigmas, but it's a fact that a child will be picked on for having homosexual parents.

You guys are forgetting that unless there is a strong reason to hold on, bullies will move onto other targets. Everyone gets bullied, but it's the minority that suffer relentlessly all through their school lives.


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> You guys are ALL validating my point.
> 
> Kids ARE cruel. Kids CAN be picked on for being fat, or for NO reason at all. Giving other kids a reason to pick on your child is different to your child being picked on for something you can't control. You CAN'T control if other people think your kid is dog ugly, YOU CAN control whether or not you put a child in a situation where it has to defend why his parents are homosexual.
> 
> ...


 
I still don't see how you can separate gay parents out as the ones who shouldn't be parents under this light? all parents have this choice, because almost all children will be picked on for things they can control, you could not have children, you could home school them, you could form your own little hypocritical enclave if you wish. 
why should gay parents be segregated in this way?
if this were the case, most of humanity wouldn't exist! because at one time or other, they were under some form of similar exclusion.
women wouldn't be able to vote, aboriginals either, or have their children removed "for their own good" in every country, there has been some religious or political or social reason that some class or type of people were or are still hounded because of the way they are.

should muslims be disallowed to have children because they'll be picked on at the current time?
it's a choice after all.. the Chinese when they came during the gold rush and treated (and thought of) as virtual slave labour? your belief as it stands can validly and easily spread out to other people.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 10, 2011)

No we're saying that kids will be picked on regardless, so why shouldn't gay parents be allowed children?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

Of course kids will be picked on, but your average kid won't be bullied to the point that one would if they had gay parents. You guys don't know the effect relentless torment can have on a person. Everyone gets picked on, I'm not talking about being picked on. I'm talking about being subjected to mental anguish and segregation that no child should have to feel.

Read kaotikjeztas post. It completely validates my point.

Someone mentioned home schooling, that would be the best option I reckon. Atleast until the kid is old enough to keep things to themselves if they wished, and was old enough to comprehend the reactions they'd have to put up with.


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## giglamesh (Apr 10, 2011)

if people tease you for whatever reason just walk a few steps in casey hains's shoes and power bomb them


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## HydroGoat (Apr 10, 2011)

I have a friend who has two mums, she's a vegetarian and a bit of a hippie. Huge potential for bullying there.

She barely gets any crap at all!

EDIT:


kawasakirider said:


> You guys don't know the effect relentless torment can have on a person.



Oh really? I've been bullied from when I was 4 or 5ish, all the way through to year 12 when it finally stopped. Pretty much constant, I moved school twice during that time and it continued. So don't tell me I don't know.


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Of course kids will be picked on, but your average kid won't be bullied to the point that one would if they had gay parents. You guys don't know the effect relentless torment can have on a person. Everyone gets picked on, I'm not talking about being picked on. I'm talking about being subjected to mental anguish and segregation that no child should have to feel.


 
but they ARE, every day across the country. did you see the media attention of casey? the fat kid who was caught on video by bullies?
he tells of being hounded every single day of almost his entire school life!
and that had NOTHING to do with having gay parents, you simply don't KNOW how many kids are picked on and to what extent, you just believe you do.

I think it comes down to your own fear of what you think will or does happen, but you, yourself don't have any idea, hell, I was picked on and segregated almost my entire school life too, I was at the point i pulled a knife on another kid because I was so sick of it after years and years of it, and the reason? I was skinny and deemed a non threat and I didn't play sport. (no I never hurt him, but the bullying still continued, but it sure lessened because they THOUGH I might snap.)


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 10, 2011)

THAT'S ENOUGH. 

I had made the assumption (correctly, apparently) that you had been bullied and for that reason you didn't feel it was right to give the same type of kids who harassed you ammunition to pick on someone else. Lashing out and saying that nobody else knows your pain is just _childish_ and completely uncalled for. 

Does giving a child a home, and ACTUAL home, with two loving parents who'll bring them up the same way any mother/father couple could, really outweigh being in the foster system? A system designed so poorly that social workers and children turn to drugs/alcohol/death just to cope?

Does denying two people who love each other the opportunity to start their own family make such a SIGNIFICANT difference in the world that's it's life-altering for 95% of the populace? 

Grow the hell up.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

You're a champion crystal, a really intelligent being. It wasn't hard for anyone to make those assumptions from my posts. Doesn't change anything.

Don't tell me enough, either. You're not my mother.



Crystal..Discus said:


> Lashing out and saying that nobody else knows your pain is just _childish_.


 
Also, please point out to me where I said no one knows my pain? Maybe you should read before making posts.


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## Elapidae1 (Apr 10, 2011)

I no longer feel my arguments are valid enough to deny the rights of gay couples access to the same parenting rights and accesses to adoption etc as hetero couples. I do still have this inkling in my mind though that it just isn't right, I guess that can only be explained as ingrained prejudice showing through, I can't fault the logic in some peoples supporting arguments.

I hope you are all one day (soon) given the opportunity to decide for yourselves whether or not you will be parents. In the meantime I'll stick to trying to make the correct decisions for my family. I guess the same as any other parent regardless of sexuality i'll wait till my daughter is grown up and taking responsibility for her own life before I judge myself on whether I made the correct choices. Who am I to judge others before they've even been given the opportunity to make theirs?


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Mate I have been to HELL and BACK. I do know what it's like. I'd say that I was hounded worse than anyone could be, regardless of their parents sexual orientation. I have wanted to end it, but I have a fear of death.... I just wished I could go to sleep and never wake up. I am a VERY different person for it now. So don't tell me I don't have any ****ing idea you *******.



worse than anyone could be? ANYONE? no, and a lot of us went through hell, that doesn't give you the right to stand judge and jury over all else. 
Not the adults and not the children that would take a family and stable home life for a little hell any day of the year, some have NEVER known parental love at ALL.
I'm sorry you had a hard time, I'm sorry I had a hard time, and everyone else who had a hard time, but this is LIFE, it's not easy, not ever, even the most spoiled brat has a hard life at some point, life is adversity, life is being able to grow beyond the hell and hard and the down right horrible and then stand as an adult and do better for yourself and the future generations (for the best of us) some fail, some get half way, but it's never, EVER easy.
you're not the only one who had wished for death at least a couple of times, or even tried for it, but life is a battle of the strong to survive, then to overcome if they can and do better if they can.
those who try to make it worse for someone else in the misguided belief they're helping in some perverse way have not succeeded.
stopping gays from being parents (which you can't anyway, there are always ways) does nothing what so ever to improve the situation, it just makes the journey for equality longer and harder.
and all you do is stop some kid from having a family and a house and being loved.


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## Crystal..Discus (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm not your mother, but I sure as hell know a lot more than you do. You lashed out and abused another member for what? Telling you that you don't know what torment is? You've explicitly stated throughout this thread that you make assumptions based on meditation. 

My assumption is, is that you're too emotionally stunted to really have any type of logical place in this argument. You use your history as a basis for denying other people the right to have children. You're too immature to really grasp what it is you're saying. 

I didn't have to read it in your posts, it's a plain as day that you think you're special. That the way you were treated is somehow different. Everyone else has scars from childhood, what make yours so special?


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## notechistiger (Apr 10, 2011)

You said it right here. Wasn't said word-for-word but was certainly implied.



> You guys don't know the effect relentless torment can have on a person.



It's amusing you think two loving gay parents don't deserve to bring up kids due to the _possibility_ they'll be picked on in school. The violence and drugs that are prominent in many adoption systems are much better, yeah?

What a sad, sad view of the world you have.


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm not asking you to be sorry mate. Everyone goes through hard times. It just seems to me those hard times would be created or exacerbated in a situation like this. I'm glad what happened to me happened, it made me stronger.



Crystal..Discus said:


> I'm not your mother, but I sure as hell know a lot more than you do. You lashed out and abused another member for what? Telling you that you don't know what torment is? You've explicitly stated throughout this thread that you make assumptions based on meditation.
> 
> My assumption is, is that you're too emotionally stunted to really have any type of logical place in this argument. You use your history as a basis for denying other people the right to have children. You're too immature to really grasp what it is you're saying.
> 
> I didn't have to read it in your posts, it's a plain as day that you think you're special. That the way you were treated is somehow different. Everyone else has scars from childhood, what make yours so special?


 
Yeah you nailed it. I am special.

If I have offended any gay person I apologise. For the record I have gay friends.


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

they wouldn't, not any more than already is for any number or reasons.
you have personal bias, for what ever reason, even if it's personal knowledge or experience, that's just your story, not even enough to make any kind of informed decision on.

it's akin to a rape victim calling for all men to be put into chastity belts because of their experience with one man. 

there are statistics, there are studies done all over the world, that state unequivocally that there is no more risk than any other child in any way.

would your gay friends support your belief though? have you even brought the subject up with them?


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## Smithers (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> If I have offended any gay person I apologise. For the record I have gay friends.



Out of curiosity Trent do you talk to them about this subject and if so what are their responses to your views?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm only 19. My gay friends (granted there aren't many) haven't thought about children.... Well, to be honest I don't know for sure if they have, I'm just assuming because they are young. So honestly, I don't know how they'd feel.

I don't understand (yet) the desire to have children, so I don't know how hard it would feel, I'd assume it would be worse than anything I've ever yearned for.

I also believe that the best way to tackle it would be to home school the child until it's old enough to make its own choices in regards to tackling the publics reception of their situation. I don't have a problem with that at all.

Again, if I have offended any gay people, I apologise.


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## Jay84 (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> The same goes for EVERY sort of person. You make out like I'm targeting homosexuals entirely. If someone can't afford a child, don't have the bloody thing... If someone is a drug addict, don't have a damn child... If someone knows that their child will be ridiculed to the point of no return just because of who his parents are, they should seriously reconsider a child.


 
Should red heads not have children then? Should midgets be banned from having kids?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

Jay84 said:


> Should red heads not have children then? Should midgets be banned from having kids?


 
If you follow my train of thought, then yes.

I see how it is flawed now. 

The MAIN reason I kept arguing is because I don't like to lose. Not because I felt so strongly about it that I couldn't let it go. I apologise for my pig headedness.


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## Recharge (Apr 10, 2011)

about the same reason Government is doing it too ;P 

that and the religious power brokers trying to set law and policy on their own interpretations of a fairy tail.


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## Jay84 (Apr 10, 2011)

God, calm down buddy! You're not the only one who has been through this ok?

Kawasakirider, i am sorry that you got picked on, but so did many others here, for many different reasons. I don't believe that having gay parents is going to make it any worse as from your previous post it seems you have realised that.


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## HydroGoat (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Two mums is frowned upon less than two dads. You said yourself that you are gay, so there's your reason. You know what it's like.


 
I also said that nobody knew that until well after the bullying had ended


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## Jay84 (Apr 10, 2011)

So, in the UK, gay males are now able to donate blood...................... IF they have NOT HAD SEX in the last 10 YEARS !!!! hahahahahha

UK ban on gay male blood donors lifted | News.com.au


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

Jesus christ... How can I make myself any clearer? I was arguing for the sake of it because so many people were disagreeing with me that I felt like I had to.

I DO believe that kids could get bullied for gay parents. But I DON'T think this is enough of a reason for them not to have them.

I am not a gay hater, and Jay84, why bother digging up a post of mine from another page after I quoted you and conceeded that you were right?

I was WRONG and I KNEW it. I just don't like losing arguments. I still think I highlighted some interesting and valid points, but that isn't the point.

To anyone I offended, I'm sorry. To anyone that still wants to have a dig, go for it.


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## Jay84 (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Jesus christ... How can I make myself any clearer? I was arguing for the sake of it because so many people were disagreeing with me that I felt like I had to.
> 
> I DO believe that kids could get bullied for gay parents. But I DON'T think this is enough of a reason for them not to have them.
> 
> ...



wow... you get so defensive. calm down. the reason i quoted a post a few pages back is because i havn't been online and was just reading through the pages and catching up.

Is that ok with you?


This is where you should learn humility, after 6 or so pages of arguing. i am pleased you have admitted to arguing for the sake of it. Maybe you won't do the same in the next big debate?


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## kawasakirider (Apr 10, 2011)

I just didn't see the point of you digging up posts after I'd directly quoted you saying you were right.


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## Jay84 (Apr 10, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I just didn't see the point of you digging up posts after I'd directly quoted you saying you were right.


 
I will say it again..... i have been reading through the last few pages and quoting as i as reading.......

Are you over your arguing? I thought you said you were? lol


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