# Can Snakes Bond with their owners



## LittleButterfly (Oct 29, 2019)

Hello all

I have been absent from the forum for a while due to school and such. I am currently doing a research task for agriculture and I (unsurprisingly) am doing it on snakes.
So I have a question, 
In your opinion, can snakes bond with their owners?
Please give explanations and examples with your answers please.

Cheers


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## Shikito123 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hi. 

Absolutely. I have 4 snakes at the moment and they all know me from sight and smell. They act completely different when friends hold them or my sisters. They are all comfortable with me but when my sisters or a friend hold them their behavior changes. They smell them alot more, they fidget alot more and just look uncomfortable. This could also be due to the new person not being completely comfortable with the snake either however I have found the snakes behavior is like that with my sisters. Who are very comfortable holding snakes. At night when they are cruising around they stop to look at me so I'll open the door and they'll come out onto me. When my sisters do that, they arch up a little (even my puppy dog tame coastal). Watch some of New England reptile distributers (NERD) videos on YouTube. Kevin goes through alot of reptile behavior and all that stuff. Might be able to help you abit. 

I hope I've helped out a little. Good luck on your project! Sounds really cool!


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## LittleButterfly (Oct 29, 2019)

Shikito123 said:


> Hi.
> 
> Absolutely. I have 4 snakes at the moment and they all know me from sight and smell. They act completely different when friends hold them or my sisters. They are all comfortable with me but when my sisters or a friend hold them their behavior changes. They smell them alot more, they fidget alot more and just look uncomfortable. This could also be due to the new person not being completely comfortable with the snake either however I have found the snakes behavior is like that with my sisters. Who are very comfortable holding snakes. At night when they are cruising around they stop to look at me so I'll open the door and they'll come out onto me. When my sisters do that, they arch up a little (even my puppy dog tame coastal). Watch some of New England reptile distributers (NERD) videos on YouTube. Kevin goes through alot of reptile behavior and all that stuff. Might be able to help you abit.
> 
> I hope I've helped out a little. Good luck on your project! Sounds really cool!



Thanks for the input, my stimmie acts like that whenever someone else holds him but he's mainly chill when I handle him


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## -Adam- (Oct 29, 2019)

Interesting question. My opinion is that it depends on what your definition is of "bonding".

On the surface I'd say yes - but with a strong cavet:

I have seen snakes that make direction towards their owners when being handled by others. Whether this is because they're looking for / preferring a familiar scent and feel safer or whether the snake has a deeper attachment to the owner I have no idea but there is obviously _something_ that makes the snake desire heading towards it's owner.

I read an old post on this forum by one snake owner who said that he had a daily routine, and in the morning the dogs got a walk between a certain time, and then after that the snake was let out and handled - every morning. On the days where he didn't do this the snake got agitated around the time due for handling to the point where it would bang it's head on the glass. 

Snakes in captivity will have very different experiences to those in the wild. How this changes their behaviour, and how their natural instincts interpret this would be a very interesting study. 

I personally don't think that snakes have the same logic or reasoning as other bonding animals such as cats or dogs - but that's not to say that snakes don't prefer the familiarity or even maybe desire the experience they have with some of their owners. I think care is required that we don't Anthropomorphize. Being brought up on cartoons and TV shows that put human emotion and action onto animals has us living in a society that we too often try to associate animals with us and vise versa. (I would guess that organisations such as PETA are a direct result of this).

We have animals in the same species as us (Mammals) that operate very differently to us - and then there's snakes which is a completely different species altogether. I think there is a familiarity where snakes will feel safer and get to know their owner - whether that is by scent or otherwise - but on what level one actually bonds and what "feelings" snakes have I have no idea. I suspect with snakes it's more a matter of conditioning of environment than it is anything emotional - although some snakes do appear to have some incredible personalities.


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## GBWhite (Oct 29, 2019)

Having been involved with and actively interested in snake behaviour in captivity and in the field for the past 50 + years this is my view on the subject of bonding.

Snakes are very simple, primitive creature with a primitive brain. In fact the base of the human brain is referred to as the reptilian brain and is the source of where our human instinct of survival originated. Unlike humans and some animals they don't have the cognitive ability to recognize or express emotion.

Snakes don't bond with their mate(s) or their off spring. They are only interested in survival and rely on the instincts they have developed over millenniums (and which has served them well) to exist and continue to exist to the present time. All snakes (including captives) maintain these instincts. They only need to be concerned with obtaining food, water & shelter, thermoregulation, the need to reproduce and the ability to react to a flight or fight situation. In fact having the emotional capability to "Bond" with their owner (or anything else for that matter) could very well be detrimental to their ability to exist.

So you'd have to ask the question "What benefits would they gain by bonding with their owner (I prefer the term keeper)?". The answer is...none.

In general they have very poor eyesight but do get to recognize their owners through scent recognition and once they realize that their keeper is no threat to their well being they tolerate interaction with them but they do not seek or crave it. All species of snake and individuals within species have different dispositions where some are naturally nervous while others are more tolerant. Those that do generate to the keeper in the presence of others do so because they are familiar with their scent and recognize them as a safe place to be. The same relates when returning them to their enclosure. But be assured if they are provided the opportunity to escape they won't hesitate to do so without any concern for their owner what so ever.

They will explore new enclosures and cage furnishings out of curiosity as a means to determine if their is any threat to their well being and/or traces of food.


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## Sdaji (Oct 31, 2019)

In my decades of playing with snakes and snake people, I've seen plenty of cases of folks wanting so much to believe that their snakes bond with them that they imagine it to be so.

I've seen many cases of people swearing a snake has bonded with someone or likes someone when the reality is obviously different. Inexperienced keepers who are just learning to handle snakes properly often notice that the snake seems to have accepted them and seems far more comfortable when they hold the snake than when they first got their snake. In reality, the snake just feels comfortable because the person is holding the snake comfortably. These people often think snakes immediately love me because they are comfortable with me despite being visibly uncomfortable with their other friends. In reality it's just that I have decades of experience holding snakes while their other friends don't. 

I've never known a python to genuinely bond with any particular person. They can associate people with feed but not really recognise particular people. If they did recognise a person's smell or something they'd just be associating that smell with an associated thing, but having a fondness for a small because of an association with prey is no more 'bonding' than a snake associating the smell of egg shells and bird nests with a feed as bonding to bird nests.

I have seen cases of possible recognition and fondness of individual people in the most intelligent species of snakes such as Taipans, but even then I'm not entirely sure. I've definitely seen cases of lizards and tortoises being very fond of humans, but not bonding with particular individual humans.

People believe what they want to be true far more than what evidence/reality tells them to, and that's almost impossible to change. If someone believes their pet loves them they'll find any way possible to justify that belief, and hey, just try to convince them otherwise!


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Oct 31, 2019)

In one word... "Anthropomorphism"


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## CF Constrictor (Oct 31, 2019)

I don't know, my coastal seems to have bonded with my feet. Every time i take him outside for a slither in the grass ( or to do number 2s , he's toilet trained you see ) he seems to like climbing over my feet, sometimes over and over again. He usualy dosn't wander to far away from me infact he seems to start heading in one direction then turns around and comes back, climbs over my feet then heads in another direction , then returns to do it again. Seriously who realy knows . i just know ive bonded with him either way.


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## Sdaji (Oct 31, 2019)

CF Constrictor said:


> I don't know, my coastal seems to have bonded with my feet. Every time i take him outside for a slither in the grass ( or to do number 2s , he's toilet trained you see ) he seems to like climbing over my feet, sometimes over and over again. He usualy dosn't wander to far away from me infact he seems to start heading in one direction then turns around and comes back, climbs over my feet then heads in another direction , then returns to do it again. Seriously who realy knows . i just know ive bonded with him either way.



Putting a snake outside on the ground, exposed in the open during the day is a terrifying experience for it. Especially captive snake which spend most of their lives safe in an enclosed space, to suddenly be in such an unnatural and extremely dangerous situation is likely to make them appear to bond with anything familiar or any form of shelter. It's a little like saying a snake kept in a large enclosure has bonded with its hide box or basking spot.

Incidentally, get any snake which has never been outside before, take it outside and put it on the ground and it will probably crap. It's the same thing which makes snakes crap immediately after you clean the enclosure and put it back in. No training involved or required, it's just how snakes are


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## CF Constrictor (Oct 31, 2019)

Yep , you could be right. But this particular coastal i've had for over 2 1/2 years WILL NOT poo in his enclosure . AT ALL ! I have 3 carpets all up and make a point of taking each of them outside around 7 days after feeding. The other 2 practicaly never poo outside , but this 1 dose it every time and even seems to wait for me to take him outside, even if im a few days late he holds onto it untill hes on the lawn. My snakes are used to spending time outside as i take them out regularly and i have an aviary out the back for them to use during spring , summer. The first few times i had them out in the open during the day they were obviously scared but have become quit at eze with it . Infact they usualy seem to enjoy it.


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## Sdaji (Oct 31, 2019)

CF Constrictor said:


> Yep , you could be right. But this particular coastal i've had for over 2 1/2 years WILL NOT poo in his enclosure . AT ALL ! I have 3 carpets all up and make a point of taking each of them outside around 7 days after feeding. The other 2 practicaly never poo outside , but this 1 dose it every time and even seems to wait for me to take him outside, even if im a few days late he holds onto it untill hes on the lawn. My snakes are used to spending time outside as i take them out regularly and i have an aviary out the back for them to use during spring , summer. The first few times i had them out in the open during the day they were obviously scared but have become quit at eze with it . Infact they usualy seem to enjoy it.



Sincere apologies, I didn't realise you had 3 pythons. No doubt you're an expert who knows everything, including how to train pythons and make them form emotional bonds with feet. Carry on.


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## CF Constrictor (Oct 31, 2019)

No Please accept my apology . Im not an expert at anything. I just didn't realize you were mate.


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## Vanessa Gummow (Nov 3, 2019)

I can tell you that my fiance' and I have three cats one dog bull mastive and two diamond pythons. It could be nothing but pharamones that Juicy and Russel-The-Love-Muscle (our diamonds) can smell, but Mini Puss a most upperty cat, quite unfriendly to nearly any other being, except me and ESPECIALLY my partner even her own children. BUT, (AND I WAS EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS FROM START) She ABSOLUTELY LOVES the snakes. Medusa is pregnant I've recently learned. And Juicy will happily chill with Mini Puss (who I did not even know could Purr,!) Where as she will (quite smartly) dart away from Torany our other cat. I'll post a pic montagne


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## -Adam- (Nov 3, 2019)

Not sure what to make out of this one...

(Before flaming me, please don't shoot the messenger - the below is the coronor's report, not mine. I have doubts on the finding myself - I post it here as it's on topic, and may be of interest for the OP's agriculture study if for no other reason to show the vast differences in opinions or misunderstandings in professional industries about snakes behaviour).

But apparently a coroner has ruled that snakes can be affectionate towards their owner, at least that's the ruling as to why Dan Brandon's snake killed him:

_"He made clear he did not believe the snake had been aggressive towards its owner, but the most likely scenario was that the reptile had been coiling around him in an affectionate way,"_ (emphasis mine)​


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

That.. is complete and utter BS.


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## Herpetology (Nov 3, 2019)

Ah yes very affectionate
[doublepost=1572732361,1572731955][/doublepost]


Vanessa Gummow said:


> I can tell you that my fiance' and I have three cats one dog bull mastive and two diamond pythons. It could be nothing but pharamones that Juicy and Russel-The-Love-Muscle (our diamonds) can smell, but Mini Puss a most upperty cat, quite unfriendly to nearly any other being, except me and ESPECIALLY my partner even her own children. BUT, (AND I WAS EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS FROM START) She ABSOLUTELY LOVES the snakes. Medusa is pregnant I've recently learned. And Juicy will happily chill with Mini Puss (who I did not even know could Purr,!) Where as she will (quite smartly) dart away from Torany our other cat. I'll post a pic montagne


I wouldn’t put my snakes even In the same room as my cats if I were you...

Cats tend to like to “play” with animals before killing them and a single bite or “attack” will be nighty night to the snake

Or if the snake decides to coil around your cat, it will have no issue stoping the cats breathing..

This comes from someone who loves cats and snakes


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## GBWhite (Nov 3, 2019)

-Adam- said:


> Not sure what to make out of this one...
> But apparently a coroner has ruled that snakes can be affectionate towards their owner, at least that's the ruling as to why Dan Brandon's snake killed him:
> 
> _"He made clear he did not believe the snake had been aggressive towards its owner, but the most likely scenario was that the reptile had been coiling around him in an affectionate way,"_ (emphasis mine)​


​
Typical comment from someone ignorant of snake behaviour. Stupid, stupid, uneducated assumption by the coroner.


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## nuttylizardguy (Nov 3, 2019)

Vanessa Gummow said:


> I can tell you that my fiance' and I have three cats one dog bull mastive and two diamond pythons. It could be nothing but pharamones that Juicy and Russel-The-Love-Muscle (our diamonds) can smell, but Mini Puss a most upperty cat, quite unfriendly to nearly any other being, except me and ESPECIALLY my partner even her own children. BUT, (AND I WAS EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS FROM START) She ABSOLUTELY LOVES the snakes. Medusa is pregnant I've recently learned. And Juicy will happily chill with Mini Puss (who I did not even know could Purr,!) Where as she will (quite smartly) dart away from Torany our other cat. I'll post a pic montagne


1) can reptiles bond with their keeper ? - yes - in so far as recognizing them and knowing they are the one who provides them with food, water, and takes away the smelly stuff , and they can learn they are safe when on them / to trust them ( usually , ie the keeper is their safe place when out of their tank ).
Do they love their keeper ? not sure but they do seem to enjoy the body heat.

2) cats and reptiles - anyone who lets a cat anywhere near their reptile is an idiot.
Cats are hardwired to kill and enjoy torturing their victims (every cat will do it given the chance).
It only takes one bite or scratch from a cat to be very bad for the reptile ( very nasty viruses and bacteria on cat fangs and cat claws ).


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## GBWhite (Nov 3, 2019)

nuttylizardguy said:


> 1) can reptiles bond with their keeper ? - yes - in so far as recognizing them and knowing they are the one who provides them with food, water, and takes away the smelly stuff



Yeah, that's not bonding that's dependency. Definition - "Dependency happens when you can't function without the help of someone or something".


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## -Adam- (Nov 3, 2019)

GBWhite said:


> Typical comment from someone ignorant of snake behaviour. Stupid, stupid, uneducated assumption by the coroner.



Which is what I expected, and find kinda scary. The coroner's findings are often used in future as evidence for change in policies, etc. I know of another finding where I have strong doubts about a coroners finding but again, a similar situation in that it is a specialty area that the coroner had no experience in although I have a lot of experience in, where I feel more qualified than this one to make a judgement. This leaves me wondering on how many occasions do the coroners get it wrong, and on how many occasions does that have roll-on effects that affect other people's lives unnecessarily.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

I sure hope that I'm right there the moment my turtle eggs hatch this season... maybe if I'm the VERY first thing the hatchies see when they emerge from their eggs.... I'll imprint on their psyche and erase 260 million years of evolution in an instant and be forever bonded with them emotionally, spiritually and physically. They will know that their very existence only came about solely because of my efforts and that they are eternally indebted to me. They will devote their lives to repaying me.... my turtles will know I am the one...

I've had a few Coronas... but sure, it's entirely possible/plausible.


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## Bl69aze (Nov 3, 2019)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> I sure hope that I'm right there the moment my turtle eggs hatch this season... maybe if I'm the VERY first thing the hatchies see when they emerge from their eggs.... I'll imprint on their psyche and erase 260 million years of evolution in an instant and be forever bonded with them emotionally, spiritually and physically. They will know that their very existence only came about solely because of my efforts and that they are eternally indebted to me. They will devote their lives to repaying me.... my turtles will know I am the one...
> 
> I've had a few Coronas... but sure, it's entirely possible/plausible.


YOU.... ARE..... GOD!!!!!!!!! (to the wee turtles)


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

Bl69aze said:


> YOU.... ARE..... GOD!!!!!!!!! (to the wee turtles)


They shall both fear and respect me.


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## dragonlover1 (Nov 3, 2019)

GBWhite said:


> Yeah, that's not bonding that's dependency. Definition - "Dependency happens when you can't function without the help of someone or something".


I have the greatest respect for your opinions George, You have way more experience than I. I have been keeping dragons for 20+ years but pythons for only 4. But I assume what most of these people are talking about is recognition, I think dependency relies on intelligence which is something most long term keepers would agree is lacking in reptiles. Most of my reptiles "recognize " me and react differently to other people


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## Sdaji (Nov 3, 2019)

Snakes (and turtles, crocodiles, etc) can learn to associate certain things with feed. Crocodiles quickly learn if animals come to the water to drink at the same time of day. Most of these animals will make associations with virtually any stimulus (a smell or sound or the rippling in water or movement of grass or anything else which alerts them to the likely presence of something to eat). Their learning to recognise and attraction to these things isn't 'bonding' or 'love' or 'companionship'. When it happens in captivity it's still not companionship. You can teach them to associate feeding with a bell or particular song or a coloured target or whatever you like.

It's the same thing with a tree or hiding spot they learn is safe. They don't emotionally bond with it as some sort of relationship, they just recognise it as being worthwhile. Same deal with a hide box or human handling them.

Animals can carry out relatively complex behaviours and recognise some interesting connections (correct or not) between events or things and their desires such as perceived safety or feed. They can modify their behaviour to a large extent, but it doesn't mean they are loving anything or emotionally bonding. For example, if you put a pigeon in a box without any external stimuli, let it get hungry, then start adding feed at random intervals, it will associate the thing it did immediately before the first feeding with feeding. For example, if it just flapped its wings before the first time feed fell into the box, it will often flap its wings, even if the feed is introduced at entirely random intervals. If it just shook its head or stretched a leg etc, it will continuously do that for as long as it's in the box. This is without there even being any correlation between feed and the behaviour. If there actually is any correlation, obviously the effect is going to work even more strongly. We actually see humans providing us with themselves as surrogate experiments for us. Just as a pigeon believes it is influencing and interacting with the feed device, we can see that humans make imaginary connections and project feelings on to the animal, even to the extent as we see an example here where someone believed a snake was able to bond with their feet, or that they 'trained' a snake to carry out innate snake behaviour. Observing these humans is as interesting as many of the formal animal experiments which are published, but unfortunately it's generally not possible to publish the best human experiments because of ethical and logistical constraints. It is, however, pretty easy carry out your own experiments on humans (without causing them any harm or them realising it... or if you chose, without causing _much_ harm and them still not realising.... or you can cause more harm and likely end up with varying degrees of harm to yourself). Incidentally, B F Skinner did the pigeon experiment among other very interesting psychological experiments and they're worth a read (searching 'skinner pigeon superstition' should bring this one up). One of the things I loved about studying animal behaviour and psychology at university was that it was so directly applicable to humans, and humans follow many of the same patterns with the same mathematical frequencies, for example, the rate of males and females cheating on their partners is very consistent across most 'monogamous' species - humans included! The proportion of each sex cheating not at all, sometimes and often follows an evolutionary strategy and humans also follow it. The same goes for many behavioural strategies. People think they have free will and make choices, but the vast majority of people behave neatly according to algorithms, and most draw causative assumptions regarding correlations in a similar way to a pigeon, again, with approximately equal accuracy (which is why evolution ended up giving humans and pigeons the same algorithmic strategy).

As for snakes 'affectionately coiling around people and loving them to death'... some people should lose their jobs and be forbidden from ever again being in a position of any more responsibility or authority than that of a cleaner or maybe production line worker.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

dragonlover1 said:


> Most of my reptiles "recognize " me and react differently to other people


Captive bred and raised turtles are exactly the same... They can approach the front of the aquarium begging for food from their keepers yet shy away to the back corners of an aquarium warily watching strangers. Even intelligent fish species like Oscars display the same behaviours.. My oscars go nuts with excitement when I walk in the room... If my wife approaches their tank they're all sorts of unsociable... even to the point of laying completely flat on their sides on the bottom of their tank like a flounder on the sea floor.


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## Sdaji (Nov 3, 2019)

Bl69aze said:


> YOU.... ARE..... GOD!!!!!!!!! (to the wee turtles)



Reminds me of a Red-footed Tortoise I saw while visiting Ron Tremper in Texas. As soon as this tortoise saw me it rushed over to me and excitedly followed me around, ignoring everyone else. I'm not sure if it was something I was wearing or just that I was the tallest person or something else, but apparently it wasn't usually like that. No doubt many people would have thought there was some sort of bonding there, and even I couldn't help having that instinctive feeling, it was very easy to imagine this tortoise loved me and I couldn't help feeling almost guilty when I left and the turtle was trying to stay with me as it watched me leave, but realistically I obviously just triggered some reaction in it. I must admit, the experience has always made me want to get some Red-footed Tortoises and if I even find myself living abroad in a stable location for a long period of time I probably will. But I'm 100% aware that I can get the same reaction with a piece of roast chicken and a seagull or a Mars Bar from a fat chick or a wad of cash from a hooker and they don't indicate meaningful bonds either, even though two of them would probably even tell me one exists.
[doublepost=1572762903,1572762437][/doublepost]


Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Captive bred and raised turtles are exactly the same... They can approach the front of the aquarium begging for food from their keepers yet shy away to the back corners of an aquarium warily watching strangers. Even intelligent fish species like Oscars display the same behaviours.. My oscars go nuts with excitement when I walk in the room... If my wife approaches their tank they're all sorts of unsociable... even to the point of laying completely flat on their sides on the bottom of their tank like a flounder on the sea floor.



See my tortoise example above, and I've also seen many other captive turtles which enthusiastically approach anyone, clearly expecting feed, but rarely see them have preferences for different people. In Asia there are countless lakes and ponds where wild turtles come up for feed (like ducks at the local pond). Usually they happily take it from anyone, but there was one time where a turtle enthusiastically ate everything I threw into the water but didn't eat a thing thrown in by the girl sitting next to me (even when we tried throwing in pieces torn off from the same piece of feed). It wasn't scared of her, just indifferent. I fed many turtles in many places with that girl and every other time there was no preference, just that one individual turtle.

Many years ago I had Oscars and they didn't recognise the difference between different people. I'm sure you could teach it to them but it seems odd that they'd shy away from someone without a reason. If they genuinely literally lie flat on the floor like flounder in response to your wife and enthusiastically come up to your for feed, it is truly amazing and you should take a video, it would surely go viral.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

Yes, turtles in public lakes or ponds are exposed to a lot more people randomly feeding them than those in an aquarium in a household of 3-4. They definitely do recognise strangers and act accordingly. 

Oscars are well documented for behaving as mine do, they have a lot of personality for a fish and that alone is why for so long their popularity amongst aquarists has never waned... let's face it, oscars are never going to win a popularity contest by their looks alone... they're not an attractive or pretty or even sociable aquarium fish... try having a community fish tank with an Oscar.. but they attain a decent size and they're literally like owning an aquatic dog. Oscars claim their aquarium as their own territory and even the room they're in... if you move objects on my bar adjacent to my Oscars tank, they are not happy.. my wife moved a tissue box the other day about an inch and put a stapler next to it on my desk... the fish were not the slightest bit impressed with her rearranging of their decor. Mine don't shy away from my wife or others "without reason" the reason is recognition.. they recognise her as someone who doesn't spend any serious amount of time in my reptile and aquarium room... and they're wary of her presence... they don't associate her image/presence with feeding... just moving s*** around that they don't approve of. I am always amused by their antics.
[doublepost=1572766008,1572765659][/doublepost]Ps... it absolutely freaking SUCKS that we can't have tortoises in Australia...my wife is from South Africa, came to Australia in 2006 and grew up with Leopard tortoises in her yard that bred every year. I've seen some great home videos of their tortoises and the babies.


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## Sdaji (Nov 3, 2019)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Yes, turtles in public lakes or ponds are exposed to a lot more people randomly feeding them than those in an aquarium in a household of 3-4. They definitely do recognise strangers and act accordingly.
> 
> Oscars are well documented for behaving as mine do, they have a lot of personality for a fish and that alone is why for so long their popularity amongst aquarists has never waned... let's face it, oscars are never going to win a popularity contest by their looks alone... they're not an attractive or pretty or even sociable aquarium fish... try having a community fish tank with an Oscar.. but they attain a decent size and they're literally like owning an aquatic dog. Oscars claim their aquarium as their own territory and even the room they're in... if you move objects on my bar adjacent to my Oscars tank, they are not happy.. my wife moved a tissue box the other day about an inch and put a stapler next to it on my desk... the fish were not the slightest bit impressed with her rearranging of their decor. Mine don't shy away from my wife or others "without reason" the reason is recognition.. they recognise her as someone who doesn't spend any serious amount of time in my reptile and aquarium room... and they're wary of her presence... they don't associate her image/presence with feeding... just moving s*** around that they don't approve of. I am always amused by their antics.
> [doublepost=1572766008,1572765659][/doublepost]Ps... it absolutely freaking SUCKS that we can't have tortoises in Australia...my wife is from South Africa, came to Australia in 2006 and grew up with Leopard tortoises in her yard that bred every year. I've seen some great home videos of their tortoises and the babies.



As I said, I was referring to captive turtles. You're more into turtles than I am and I don't doubt some turtles do fear some people, but I've never seen it and I have seen a good number of captive turtles.

As I said, I've kept Oscars. Actually, I did keep some in a community tank. Tankmates included Australian salmon-tailed and eel-tailed catfish, and at one point a pair of tiny little jewel cichlids, which seemed fine until they spawned and had every other fish (quite a number of large oscars and catfish and I think a couple of others) squished right up at the opposite end of the tank completely terrified, which was a pretty amazing thing to see.

I think you're being cruel in terms of their appearance; I think oscars look great and I'm not the only one, but I guess beauty, eyes, beholders.

I was a tad sceptical about your floundering oscars. After you said it was well documented and googling revealed nothing I'm a tad more sceptical. Happy to be proven wrong and would appreciate it  If it's as you describe and no one has put it online (or anything online is sufficiently obscure that a deliberate search doesn't bring it up), a decent video would likely go viral. I spent many years breeding tropical fish, had many friends who also did, have seen many oscars, and am not familiar with this behaviour.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

I'll get a photo of mine doing it. They're albinos.

Just now... Wifey approached the front of the tank while I stand behind it... Look at the reaction... Waaahahahahahahaa 



Now I stand beside her.... Still not impressed... "make her go away, she touches my stuff!" 


Sinking flat to the floor... LOL 


OK she's gone now... I'm all brave again! 





My turtles.... All the same. Makes me feel all the more spesh.  Recognition.. Fish and turtles have the ability.


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## Sdaji (Nov 3, 2019)

Doesn't look like flounder, but that's pretty funny and interesting. A video would be really cool to see. I wonder why they hate/fear her so much.


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 3, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Doesn't look like flounder, but that's pretty funny and interesting. A video would be really cool to see. I wonder why they hate/fear her so much.


Given another 2 minutes it woulda been flat on the floor... does it all the time. Just my dinner is ready haha I'll definitely get you a flat floundering Oscar pic.


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## cement (Nov 16, 2019)

For what its worth my answer to the bonding thing is no.



CF Constrictor said:


> I don't know, my coastal seems to have bonded with my feet. Every time i take him outside for a slither in the grass ( or to do number 2s , he's toilet trained you see ) he seems to like climbing over my feet, sometimes over and over again. He usualy dosn't wander to far away from me infact he seems to start heading in one direction then turns around and comes back, climbs over my feet then heads in another direction , then returns to do it again. Seriously who realy knows . i just know ive bonded with him either way.



I might be able to help you with this , I have spent hours watching the behaviour of pythons both captive and wild, when a wild python moves from one place to another it can either a). move in a straight line, or b) move in a circular type pattern returning to the point of origin. In a couple of cases with the 'circular" type pattern the point of origin was a safe refuge (hide) but for whatever reason the python needed to move to a new place, so it would head off in a direction and then come back. head off again going further but coming back, and do it again but further away from poi and coming back until it found another suitable hide. then it did it again now using the new hide as a point of origin. In this way it was travelling from one place to another but "safely".
as stated previously it freaks them out being in the open for extended periods, even for wild snakes, even for large oversized wild snakes that are at the top of the food chain, dislike being in the open for too long.
Sometimes wild snakes have to cross roads, in my opinion this is a very traumatic experience for a snake, especially a slow moving one like a python if done during the day. I have seen many cross roads but as soon as they feel safe be it up a tree or even just under some sort of cover, they will stop and rest, presumably to get over the built up lactic acid from the exertion of travelling a distance and get over the trauma/risk of being so exposed.
sorry , but your snake isn't toilet trained. just don't take it outside, it'll crap in the enclosure not a problem. I would often take a python out for a run on the grass when I knew it was time to have a crap, the stretch out and exercise stimulates the bowel movement and I don't have to clean a cage.


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## CF Constrictor (Nov 19, 2019)

Hi Cement
Yeah , that makes sence to me . As for the toilet training ,it wasn't hard , i just put him on the lawn one day and he did the rest  . I actualy always suspected it might have some thing to do with the smell of the earth that seems to make him want to poo only on the lawn. What surprises me is my other 2 seem to prefer doing it in there enclosure.


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## lyzzi (Nov 20, 2019)

personally, I explain it to people when they ask as "I'm their favourite tree" because I'm not even 100% sure a snake knows that we are human or another animal to bond with. They know me, they know what I smell like and look like, they will come to me when being held by someone else and they are done with it. They know I'm not food, my snake Girlfriend can smell food been thawed out across the house, but I can put my hand up to his face and he knows its not food.


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## MrSquigglesPencil (Feb 1, 2020)

@GBWhite thankyou for your explanation on this subject, you have explained this perfect. My son & I have had this discussion many times about our python. As much as we would like to believe that our snake loves us as much as we love her, it’s just not the case. I definitely will be showing this explanation to my son, even though I’m sure he will still like to believe that our snake loves him!!


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## meako (Feb 19, 2020)

Im not sure that the "quote" from the coroners report back there is entirely correct in context..my understanding is the coroner is quoting someone elses opinion..a witness or other involved person.
A coroners report as with most legal type reports is basically a very bland emotionless list of facts and findings from sources associated with the event....probably sound different if the entire report was quoted...but that would likely bore everyone to death quicker than being strangled by an affectionate python...

That said my Bredli has formed a love hate relationship . He hates everybody and loves to foul his mansion just as soon as he gets back from outdoor time in the garden...usually early evening...or from his climbing basking facility (branches cable tied to hills hoist)....he also seems to take pleasure by slithering about and smearing it everywhere....
People ask me is he a pet.
No. He tolerates me housing and feeding him .The most i can hope for is that he has a better life now than he did in the illegal collection he came from.

Ever watched Grizzlyman?
Or those idiots that "bond" with whitepointers...food chain.


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