# ok lets see how we go with this one...



## eipper (Oct 6, 2012)

ok so lets see how we go with this one. I already know what it is but this group can be troublesome especially without locations...so its from Australia. What is it and more importantly why????

ok now secondly, there are a few on this site (that don't need to be named) that are more than apt when it comes to id....for those instead of posting what it is in the thread shoot the answer in a pm and I will confirm or discard it and save the answer coming up in the first hour or so to give people a chance to work through the id rather than saying its a ....+1 etc

I can provide a few of these testers if you like but feel free to add one once the id of the critter is confirmed (in this initial case by me).

Hopefully this will provide so intelligent discussion (so unless it actually is a _Tropidonophis_ lets refrain from saying its a false clarence river snake aka kb)

Cheers,
Scott


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## Chanzey (Oct 6, 2012)

Pic didn't work.


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## eipper (Oct 6, 2012)

Cheers fixed


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## -Peter (Oct 7, 2012)

Would I be right in thinking its an existing species that has been placed in a new genus?


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## eipper (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi Peter,

At this moment it is in a genus that it has been in for quite a few years. However in my opinion as well as others it is a better fit in another genus. Just so everyone knows one person has got it via pm. 

Cheers
scott


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## -Peter (Oct 8, 2012)

I cant make out the toes to well, anyone else get a count on them?


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 8, 2012)

Well I know the Genus but not sure how to tell the species from photos other than general appearance, (I mean It's hard to 'poke' a skink in the eye in a picture), from appearance alone I'd go with the only species I'm familiar with, but I can't be sure of that it would be more like a 'semi-educated' guess. I'm more curious to find out what that gecko is, I really have no idea on that.


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## eipper (Oct 8, 2012)

Allrighty....we a few have got it correct it is currently....Menetia timlowi, but Lygisaurus timlowi might be a better fit. Tail shape, toe counts, barring on the lips, lower eyelid etc are all good indicators.

Without naming anyone there was some "interesting" thoughts as to which species it was. I found this interesting because made me start to wonder about the processes people work within to identify an animal. 

Onward anyway onto the next critter, this time rather than pm me the answer lets put it into the thread but rather than just saying it must be XXXX explain why it must be XXXXX and not YYYY


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## clopo (Oct 8, 2012)

Ill have a crack at them. The first is a colubrid due to the loreal scale, i am pretty sure it is a Northern Tree Snake (Dendrelaphis calligastra). This is due to the white upper lip and the yellow/white belly with dark flecks.

Im not to sure on the second one, but i am going to have a guess and say an Asian House Gecko (Hemidactylus frenatus), this is due to the eye colour and pupil shape, the sandy colouration with no real pattern and the scales surrounding the nostril (1st labial, rostral and 3 nasal scales).

Finally all i can say is the final one is a Crinia sp. due to the toes being cylindrical and no visible tubercles. Its to difficult to split them just on colour/pattern.


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## vicherps (Oct 8, 2012)

Could the the frog be Crinia tinnula. Although ventral colouration and call could tell you exactly.

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Gecko could be a Gehyra dubia or australis.


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## clopo (Oct 9, 2012)

My first thought when i saw the photo was Gehyra, however they always have some type of pattern visible. Surely someone can come up with some better reasons to support or challenge my choices.


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

Gehyra can have little patterning although the dubia sp can be quite patterned but others are not. The snout is a bit flatter in Hemidactylus (around the rostral area) but if there was a full shot showing the tail and body and some shots of the lamellae then I would be able to make a more accurate id.


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## eipper (Oct 9, 2012)

Update the snake is from Townsville, the gecko from Mt Isa and the frog from Evans Head NSW


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

In that case I think the gecko is a Gehyra australis or some other Gehyra sp, frog Crinia tinnula and the snake is a Dendrelaphis calligastra due to the head shape, very slender shape. Did the snake have a distinct dark stripe from the snout to past the eye?


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm going to have to say I think the snake is D.punculata, head shape doesn't seem any longer, skinnier or more pointed than CT's I've seen, yellow on its belly is strongest in the anterior region, it does not appear to have a dark stripe from snout-forebody, it just seems to go from light coloured to black in colour. The dark colouring on the ventrals might point to D.calligastra but I've never heard of them ruling out a D.punctulata either.


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

GeckPhotographer said:


> I'm going to have to say I think the snake is D.punculata, head shape doesn't seem any longer, skinnier or more pointed than CT's I've seen, yellow on its belly is strongest in the anterior region, it does not appear to have a dark stripe from snout-forebody, it just seems to go from light coloured to black in colour. The dark colouring on the ventrals might point to D.calligastra but I've never heard of them ruling out a D.punctulata either.


 let's see what eipper says it is. As for the dark streak which seems to be present I suggest you have a look at this link to see a close up of one Dendrelaphis calligaster (Northern Tree Snake) - JCU
which borders from the dark to the lighter part. Some specimens have yellow colouring where the light (being the yellow part in some individuals) meets the dark as instead of the white colour. The belly colouring as clopo was talking about doesn't help with IDing the 2 species at least I thought so. Anyway hopefully eipper comments to say what he thinks they are.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 9, 2012)

I think you should look at the link.


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

http://wettrt.customers.hosting-too...s/Images/animals/snakes/northernTreeSnake.jpg
can you see the fine dark streak above the white area? Come on seriously it seems fairly obvious there is one.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 9, 2012)

I can see it, that's kind of my point.

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Maybe it's only cause I'm 'cheating' and looking at a much larger copy of the pic http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott_eipper/8059019706/sizes/k/in/photostream/


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

Nah that's not cheating haha. But even in that pic I can see what looks like a thick line edging the top area of the supralabials.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 9, 2012)

We'll see, I don't think there's any line at all, it goes from light to dark, not from light to dark to less dark.


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

Ok fair enough if you can't see it. Look on the 2nd page on a closeup of presumably the same animal and notice the dark streak. Flickr: Scott Eipper's Photostream it is towards the bottom part of the page.


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## eipper (Oct 9, 2012)

I thought this snake would throw cat among the pigeons so to speak.... My first thought was punctulata but being on the edge of calligastra's distribution I thought I would attempt to key it out. 

Herein lies the problem certain features eg ventral markings, white edged (faintly and thin) dark streak point to calligastra while body size, and shape pointed to punctulata. So as the features were subjective I asked around and sent the pic to a couple of mates that have a lot more exp with Fnq tree snakes than I do. They both came back as 100% punctulata... It's just a slightly less well known form of a highly variable species.

As to the identity of the frog well that might illustrate yet another problem. I will give you a little more time but there is a clue if you have seen a recent paper about Crinia.

cheers
Scott


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## vicherps (Oct 9, 2012)

eipper said:


> I thought this snake would throw cat among the pigeons so to speak.... My first thought was punctulata but being on the edge of calligastra's distribution I thought I would attempt to key it out.
> 
> Herein lies the problem certain features eg ventral markings, white edged (faintly and thin) dark streak point to calligastra while body size, and shape pointed to punctulata. So as the features were subjective I asked around and sent the pic to a couple of mates that have a lot more exp with Fnq tree snakes than I do. They both came back as 100% punctulata... It's just a slightly less well known form of a highly variable species.
> 
> ...



Ok well there you go yeah I knew of that dark colour form of punctulata but got a bit confused as it does seem to posses calligastra like features. Thanks for the information. Is it possible to send a link to the recent paper about Crinia if it's online?


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 9, 2012)

The snake is definitely _Dendrolaphis punctulata_. The body shape is too robust, the eye is too small (twice diam of eye from snout to anterior edge of eye) and the invariably clear dark streak from the snout, through the eye and onto the neck of D. calligaster, appears tobeabse

Blue 

PS Thought I posted this last night but must have fallen asleep before having done so. Best I read yhis page now and see what was said.


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 9, 2012)

I must be turning off my computer too quickly or something new as I have lost my last post as well. I now need to write out the rationale again. Could be something to do with the new (secondhand) laptop as I killed mine a couple of weeks ago. 

Given the location of the gecko, it reaffirms my basic choice which is _Strophurus elderi_. 

I think you gave a locality for the frog but before I check it, I would say possibly _Geocrinia laevis_. Probably wrong as you are taling about papers on Crinia.

*Micah*, Thanks for pointing out my error.

Blue

*EDIT:* I do not have time to read a paper on Cinia at the moment. With Crinia being so variable, the best feature for ID is the male's call. Second best is location. Given the location I would revise my earlier ID to quite possibly _Crinia signifera_.


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## vicherps (Oct 10, 2012)

I think the frog could be a signifera or another Crinia species but I think the gecko is a Gehyra sp but I could be wrong as I was with the snake.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 10, 2012)

I agree with Micah with the gecko being a Gehyra. 

Head shape is flatter than Strophurus, no colour or pattern on nape area of anterior flanks which would be indicative of Diplodactylus (though head shape's wrong for that too, I just can't explain 'how' it's wrong), rostral scales are not as steeply sloping to form a sort of 'groove' between the upper portion of the two rostrals as in Hemidactylus and the head is less flattened than that of Hemidactylus. 

For the species I would say Gehyra dubia from A) Distribution. B) Gehyra dubia often lack prominent pattern which from a few pics taken by Kieran on this site seems even more prominent in the North of their range where pattern is more broken into flecks than larger bolder marking. Seeing just the head there is a faint dark stripe from above the ear through the eye which can range from prominent to near absent in the species, there is faint white and dark blotches over the head and nape which although very faint are consistent with the pattern this species generally have over the head area. 

I'll agree with the General consensus the frog is Crinia, I have read the paper which I assume Scott is talking about, as he was courteous enough to email it to me some time back (the Flinders one Scott?), and suggest Scott is referring to this being as recognized but as yet undescribed species of Crinia currently assigned to C.tinnula. Of course Scott can speak for himself if I'm wrong. 

Micah did Scott email you that paper, if not I can forward the one I got from him?

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However I just had a talk to someone who did the call analysis on the species suggested in that paper who says that it's known only from one population at Coffs Harbour, not Evans Head..


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## eipper (Oct 10, 2012)

yes the frog is tinnula. What I was alluding to the problem of species being split. I was aware that presently the only location that had Crinia cf tinnula was Coffs Harbour. The point was to address what is xxx today might be yyy tomorrow.

As to the gecko well I though that might of been the easiest of the lot it is Gehyra australis

cheers
scott


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## -Peter (Oct 10, 2012)

I dont sit comfortably with D. calligastra either. When I first saw the pic I thought it might be something from PNG.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 10, 2012)

Nah the snakes definitely the easiest of the lot, it looks completely different from D.calligastra, Gehyra are crap to ID unless you are familiar with the species AT the location they were found or have them in the hand, from a head pic alone IDing between G.australis and G.dubia isn't very easy at all.


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## vicherps (Oct 10, 2012)

-Peter said:


> I dont sit comfortably with D. calligastra either. When I first saw the pic I thought it might be something from PNG.



i realise the features between the 2 species morphologically and general build differ and the larger eye as Bluetongue1 has suggested. The green tree snake is a highly variable species and you can find the in colours such as blue,black,green, yellow with a grey head etc. Apparently this colour form is quite common in PNG according to what Mark O'Shea told me. Seems to be less so here maybe it is due to the more generally open habitats in Australia as opposed to New Guniea where there can be quite forest type habitat and being darker would give the ability for the snake to warm up from objects and less sunlight. Natural selection favours those with darker colouration and as a result the colour form is quite common in New Guinea.

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GeckPhotographer said:


> Micah did Scott email you that paper, if not I can forward the one I got from him?
> 
> -



I would really appreciate it if you could forward the Crinia paper to me Stephen. Also I would like to get back in contact with you on facebook and show some pictures of some of the new herps I have found and get your opinion on the shots.

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eipper said:


> As to the gecko well I though that might of been the easiest of the lot it is Gehyra australis
> 
> cheers
> scott


I thought Gehyra australis distribution does not include Mount Isa could this be a range extension or is known and has been known for a while that australis distribution incorporates Mount Isa but i never knew just out of curiosity. I know that Gehyra dubia distribution covers the Mount Isa area. If Gehyra australis are there is it possibly they formed a population from being transported amongst building material from others areas in Australia.


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## Bluetongue1 (Oct 10, 2012)

There appears to be some dilation of lamellae on the ends of the digits, so that rules out a number of genera. My initial thoughts were possibly Gehyra or Hemidactylus due to the minimal pattern, then realised the animal was actually coloured up as the white ventrals contrasted with the grey. The head shape seemed too deep for a Gehyra so I looked for a diplodactyline with a plain grey head. It would have to be a bit of an exceptionable specimen of _elderi_ not to have some markings further down the neck and chest, but given the CTS photo I suspected that might be the case again. The rostral scale does have a cleft in it but I cannot tell if it is fully divided. The scalation, as best I can see, matches that of _D. elderi_

I can only really identify the frog as Crinia due to the marbled black and white belly typical of the genus along with its small size. The species was determined according to location.

Blue


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## vicherps (Oct 10, 2012)

Bluetongue1 said:


> There appears to be some dilation of lamellae on the ends of the digits, so that rules out a number of genera. My initial thoughts were possibly Gehyra or Hemidactylus due to the minimal pattern, then realised the animal was actually coloured up as the white ventrals contrasted with the grey. The head shape seemed too deep for a Gehyra so I looked for a diplodactyline with a plain grey head. It would have to be a bit of an exceptionable specimen of _elderi_ not to have some markings further down the neck and chest, but given the CTS photo I suspected that might be the case again. The rostral scale does have a cleft in it but I cannot tell if it is fully divided. The scalation, as best I can see, matches that of _D. elderi_
> 
> I can only really identify the frog as Crinia due to the marbled black and white belly typical of the genus along with its small size. The species was determined according to location.
> 
> Blue



From what I can see there seems to be the absence of white spots on the dorsum that elderi possess and outside elderi distribution. Hemidactylus snout seems to be more flattened a bit more lengthen out and narrower in width than the Gehyra pictured here. I'm just presenting my opinion and I could be wrong and don't have anywhere near exp as you and I think you would have a better idea.


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## GeckPhotographer (Oct 10, 2012)

eipper did say it was australis. Blue the Pupil is wrong for elderi, and the head's not too deep for Gehyra at all, far to flattened for elderi.


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## vicherps (Oct 10, 2012)

I agree with the pupil comment it does look different.


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## butters (Oct 10, 2012)

There are elderi around mount Isa. Within 10km at least.


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## vicherps (Oct 10, 2012)

Within mt isa itself or close to it. Distribution maps certainly don't indicate they occur in mount isa. If your right their distribution needs to be updated.


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## butters (Oct 10, 2012)

Distribution maps are rough guides. I have seen them myself on a number of occasions.


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## vicherps (Oct 11, 2012)

butters said:


> Distribution maps are rough guides. I have seen them myself on a number of occasions.



Thanks for the update.


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## butters (Oct 11, 2012)

Not really an update just a personal observation. Which I should note will do nothing to change the distribution maps.

I will take a picture next time I see one and try and post it. Also give a rough estimate of how close to the Isa.


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## vicherps (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok thanks.


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