# DNA collection by the D.E.C



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 18, 2010)

Here is a couple of pics of D.E.C officers taking close to 100 mouth swabs of my Woma’s and Black-headed pythons for DNA analysis. This is primarily to get a data base and to establish whether there has been legitimate bleedings. The Western Australian D.E.C currently lead the country in this field and this sort of DNA collection from breeders is now likely to be more common place. The extraction is a fairly un evasive though and over within 15 seconds with minimal stress to the reptiles. Their concerns I guess is that each year across Australia many hundreds of reptiles are been illegally collected and passed off as captive bred and this is fairly common knowledge. This sort of monitoring is important to the D.E.C in W.A should the day come when reptile keeping rules allow for keeper to keeper transfer which could potentially attract such illegal practises on a larger scale and perhaps place extra pressure all ready damaged habitat e.g. area’s of the wheat belt.

Has anyone outside of W.A had DNA taken from their reptiles for analysis?

Regards Dave


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 18, 2010)

pic 2


----------



## JasonL (Feb 19, 2010)

Interesting Dave.... so if you catch any more do they have to get DNA before you sell them? why just Aspidites?


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 19, 2010)

Jason
No they haven't told me that this is their intention but any keeper in the state of W.A can be made to supply DNA from any of their reptiles as it is written in the regulations. Why they were interested in my Aspidites only, I am not too sure but they made the statement a week ago that I was the only person in W.A to ever breed Black-headed pythons, which I find extremely hard to believe. 
I was also asked whether I had removed gravid reptiles from the bush. This would indicate to me that they have doubts over my claims of past python clutches, I would like to add though that the DNA extraction this time around was not enforced and they made it very clear that if I refused to help that they would simply go away, but why make them come back with a warrant, which would be very likely.
In their conversation they did say that they intended to help bring up to speed and share their advanced techniques with all other wildlife departments around the country. I would expect that in the near future DNA extraction will be common place everywhere.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

This is interesting and slightly disturbing. 
The DNA will be extracted by Government Officers, stored at Gov. offices, handed over to a molecular lab by Gov. Officers and the results will be forwarded to Gov. Officers.
Do we trust our politicians and Government Departments so much?
And, it's not only about the trust. Some DNA analysis are performed outside Australia where the chanced of muddling up the samples is a real possibility. Part of the mDNA process done on my snakes was done in China.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 19, 2010)

It sounds like the W.A D.E.C has a very expensive setup here and they have a biologist doing this stuff full time. Like I mentioned before, they said that they were years a head of everybody is this country so maybe interstate samples will end up sent to this particular laboratory in W.A?
Some of the pygmy python breeders out there may get a little nervous I would think.


----------



## moosenoose (Feb 19, 2010)

I hope they are washing their hands and not visiting 5 keepers a day doing this. Imagine the potential quarantine risk this sort of thing poses!


----------



## JasonL (Feb 19, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> I hope they are washing their hands and not visiting 5 keepers a day doing this. Imagine the potential quarantine risk this sort of thing poses!



Nah, there just putting the wind up Dave, they threw all the swabs in the bin ten minutes later and were down the pub for a counter lunch and a laugh.....


----------



## gycho (Feb 19, 2010)

I think if they done this all over australia it would wean out the wannabe snake breeders and obviously see weather the snakes we biginers are buying are the real deal
And not mutaions that look like the real deal

I think its a good idea and i would also think they would know about the quarentine risk and act as safely as possible with the proper techneques on handling the different animals


----------



## Radar (Feb 19, 2010)

If they are outsourcing to the labs in China and a few of the other Asian countries (with 'crazy clarks' high output rubbish quality genetic work) there is a distinct possibility of a stuff up occuring, it's already happened to me with about 400 genetic samples - wrong primers built off the design I sent them (wrong by 3 bases), and it all goes downhill after that....



PilbaraPythons said:


> Some of the pygmy python breeders out there may get a little nervous I would think.



I can think of some GTP breeders that would be a touch nervous.... >.>


----------



## CodeRed (Feb 19, 2010)

I think many "breeders" out there would have poopies in their pants right about now


----------



## moosenoose (Feb 19, 2010)

travesey said:


> I think its a good idea and i would also think they would know about the quarentine risk and act as safely as possible with the proper techneques on handling the different animals



I like playing the devils advocate on this  So yeah, like when they get home they'd make sure they washed their hands before touching their own animals. There’s certainly not much of an opportunity or recourse for action should an introduced virus wipe out three quarters of someone’s collection, simply because Officer Smith forgot to wash his grubby hands! No wonder OPMV and a host of other viruses are rampant these days. Such a dirty skanky little community! :lol:

Sdaji will have a fit when he reads about this!  :lol:


----------



## gycho (Feb 19, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> I like playing the devils advocate on this  So yeah, like when they get home they'd make sure they washed their hands before touching their own animals. There’s certainly not much of an opportunity or recourse for action should an introduced virus wipe out three quarters of someone’s collection, simply because Officer Smith forgot to wash his grubby hands! No wonder OPMV and a host of other viruses are rampant these days. Such a dirty skanky little community! :lol:
> 
> Sdaji will have a fit when he reads about this!  :lol:


 
well that can be up to the breeder or keeper aswell i know of small breeders that are local to me and you cant step within 10 meters of their herp room without getting (probably the wrong word for this)decontaminated by insectacides baterial disifectant and if you smell like you have something on you forget about coming in lol


----------



## angieb (Feb 19, 2010)

they'd have good reason... it sets up the reptile industry really by dna testing animals it means they just can't b replace by one from the wild. once a dna test of is aquired... they can tie it in with our log books and stop a black market. Reptiles will also hold there value for breeders.... i mean really Dave u can prove your blood line right back to this moment... is Totally awesome! 

 what u reckon?


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

It would be interesting to know what are their objectives. Collecting DNA samples is one thing but what next? Would they be testing for relatedness between parents and progeny, siblings, etc.? Or the geographical origins of the specimens? I doubt they could pull the later. They would need pretty extensive DNA library first. 
As to mutations and crosses, I don't think they would even look that way. I feel the technology is not quite there yet to pinpoint e.g. the progeny of native GTP crossed with PNG one.
Rednut, you sound like a geneticist, can you put all this into perspective?


----------



## AndrewHenderson (Feb 19, 2010)

One good point to come from this is if a large collection was ever stolen and then later recovered in drib and drabs through seizures, perhaps the DNA collection taken could be used to prove the real owner of the snakes...like a reptile CSI haha....this in turn with a photograph of the snake and it's patterning would almost make 100% proof it is yours.

Also if you had one escape and it was later found and handed in due to it not being native to the area they could also use this to find the owner, possibly if they had the time anyway....

Andrew


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

AndrewHenderson said:


> One good point to come from this is if a large collection was ever stolen and then later recovered in drib and drabs through seizures, perhaps the DNA collection taken could be used to prove the real owner of the snakes...like a reptile CSI haha....this in turn with a photograph of the snake and it's patterning would almost make 100% proof it is yours.
> 
> Also if you had one escape and it was later found and handed in due to it not being native to the area they could also use this to find the owner, possibly if they had the time anyway....
> 
> Andrew




Good point Andrew but it can be done simply and cheaply by implanting PIT tags into (larger) snakes. I don't mean subcutaneously, into the body cavity.


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 19, 2010)

what benefit is taking dna if the animals aren't microchipped to relate dna results back to a specific animal.
maybe just putting the wind up you, especially since nsw npws in nsw have been collecting info and taking statements last week about all the wa stuff getting sent to nsw and the sunshine coast.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

carpetmucher said:


> what benefit is taking dna if the animals aren't microchipped to relate dna results back to a specific animal.
> maybe just putting the wind up you, especially since nsw npws in nsw have been collecting info and taking statements last week about all the wa stuff getting sent to nsw and the sunshine coast.




You don't need PIT tag to identify the origin of a DNA sample - you just take a swab from the animal and compare the two DNA profiles.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 19, 2010)

Carpetmuncher
Apparently they don’t need to know what particular python gave what DNA as according to them if they have swapped and collected ones entire collection the results will tell them if there are related animals e.g. father, mother and offspring.
I don't think statements from recipients that recieved reptiles of me are really of value , as most of those from memory were wild caught specimens.


----------



## kupper (Feb 19, 2010)

i still dont know what they are trying to acheive with your collections dave , as your legally allowed to collect animals from the wild ?


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 19, 2010)

i'm surprised they let their photos be taken and published on the web, especially since their melons look like dropped pies.

hey pilbara, did they ask you about perthensis and depressa, as that seems to be what's getting them all excited.


----------



## Radar (Feb 19, 2010)

Hahaha, Im no geneticist, just a dabbler, walk down any hallway in Cairns JCU and you'll bump into plenty that know more than me. 

I daresay with the animals owned by Pilbara Pythons, they are merely trying to see if those claimed to be captive bred actually are. I mean, there would be some kind of limit on wild collection, would be all to easy to overcollect and claim the extras as 'captive bred'. It's pretty simple testing really, they just look at short hypervariable regions in the DNA that are inherited from both parents, basically the same as human paternity testing. If the 'offspring' don't have the same repeated sections of DNA as the parents, it's a pretty obvious they weren't bred from those parents.....


----------



## kupper (Feb 19, 2010)

But the breeding animals could quiet easily be claimed to have been sold and subsiquent offspring are left with no parents to reference too
by no means do I think that that is what's happening but I just feel as with everything the governing bodies seem to do this practice although a good one is flawed and pointless


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 19, 2010)

No they didn't, but I did mention a favourite spot of mine close by that has been destroyed by people alledgely targeting depressa.


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 19, 2010)

pilbara, i don't think they were chasing statements about what is allowed to be taken. more the recipients in nsw and qld of stuff not allowed to be taken. some high profile names being investigated i hear.


----------



## Radar (Feb 19, 2010)

kupper said:


> But the breeding animals could quiet easily be claimed to have been sold and subsiquent offspring are left with no parents to reference too
> by no means do I think that that is what's happening but I just feel as with everything the governing bodies seem to do this practice although a good one is flawed and pointless



I see what you're saying, but this is the point of license books, if they wanted to push the issue they've just got to track the sale. It helps pick 'ring-ins' out of genuine clutches as well, you don't need the parents to tell if animals that are claimed to be siblings actually are. On top of this, unless all 'siblings' in a clutch from a pair of animals that was sold have the same microsat (or whatever DNA region is used) bands, it's clear something suss is going on (ie, collecting a whole bunch similar aged/sized animals and claiming them to be a clutch).

Im pretty sure by law, we are also required to keep any animals that die incase the officials want to inspect them? Not sure how often that one is enforced though.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

kupper said:


> But the breeding animals could quiet easily be claimed to have been sold and subsiquent offspring are left with no parents to reference too
> by no means do I think that that is what's happening but I just feel as with everything the governing bodies seem to do this practice although a good one is flawed and pointless



Kupper, all the movements can be traced through fauna books, import, export permits, movement advice, etc.. OK, lets say the parents are gone but the clutch (or most of it) is still there. The testing could easily reveal if any "siblings" were added from the wild. God forbid if chondros on the east coast ever get DNA tested for relatedness. "Sorry, mom and dad live in Indonesia"


You beat me to it mate!


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 19, 2010)

that still doesn't tell you who did the switcheroo, and once you've crossed state lines you can't achieve any prosecution unless they were dna'd at the airport on the day of despatch.

it will always be an 'i said, he said' affair


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

carpetmucher said:


> that still doesn't tell you who did the switcheroo, and once you've crossed state lines you can't achieve any prosecution unless they were dna'd at the airport on the day of despatch.
> 
> it will always be an 'i said, he said' affair



The _switcheroo_ will be pinned onto the person in possession unless he sings a song. "I said, he said" will not be listened to in a court. The solicitors will do the talking and there will be no "I said, he said". Maybe this is the sort of unity and consistency between state / territory departments we have been asking for ages.


----------



## pythonmum (Feb 19, 2010)

Pilbara is the only major legal collector/seller that I have heard of on APS. If only a few people are providing the wild bloodlines, perhaps testing these wild-caught animals will help with tracing descent down the road. One hopes that this is the reason. Of course, they need to collect swabs from breeders of multi-generation captive animals, too.


----------



## Renagade (Feb 19, 2010)

I think it's great to see DEC proactivly doing something... pilbra do you get any dna paperwork back for your animals? papers with snake purchases has been bought up numerous times... top sales pitch i would think.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Feb 19, 2010)

It looks like a very expensive project considering it has virtually no positive conservation based outcome.


----------



## Radar (Feb 19, 2010)

Jonno from ERD said:


> It looks like a very expensive project considering it has virtually no positive conservation based outcome.



It may simply be as much about enforcing the law as it is about conservation?

It probably also has higher relevance for species other than Carpet Pythons and Eastern Browns? Admittedly there are many species that a small amount of collection wouldn't affect, however other more tightly controlled, economically higher-end species are probably the focus here. Having said that.....Government departments = pffftahaha.


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 19, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> I like playing the devils advocate on this  So yeah, like when they get home they'd make sure they washed their hands before touching their own animals. There’s certainly not much of an opportunity or recourse for action should an introduced virus wipe out three quarters of someone’s collection, simply because Officer Smith forgot to wash his grubby hands! No wonder OPMV and a host of other viruses are rampant these days. Such a dirty skanky little community! :lol:
> 
> Sdaji will have a fit when he reads about this!  :lol:



Why? Because of the genetics side of things or the quarantine issue? They can already come and inspect your animals, so the quarantine issue hasn't substantially changed. When collecting DNA they would need to use sterile technique, so disease transfer would be reasonably unlikely. When the department's staff have viewed my animals they have been happy for me to show them the animals without having to handle or touch the animals themselves, which I have appreciated. It would be a bit of a nuisance to have this done to the animals, especially if they chose a time when feeding, sloughing or breeding was going to an issue.

I think it's valuable to be doing the genetic work, but in most cases I can't see it being value for money. I have wanted to do genetic paternity testing on my animals, but it has been prohibitively expensive. A couple of years ago I actually joked with DSE staff about my Water Pythons, saying I should have someone accuse me of doing the wrong thing so that DNA tests could be done, which would confirm that one of my males was the father (and importantly to me, which of the possible males it was). They knew I was joking, but pointed out that the testing is very expensive. Having worked in genetics labs I know what these tests cost, and I am concerned about the waste of money (where would this money be coming from?), but at the same time I am interested to see genetic technology advance, so part of me is happy whenever I see the technology applied.

I would be very interested to know what genetic methods they are using to test paternity. Assuming it is not a crude method of questionable accuracy, and since they can get enough DNA from an oral swab that's a fairly safe assumption, they must be looking at specific polymorphisms, which would require the development of protocols for each species, and potentially each locality/population. That might explain why they were only going for Aspidites. Alternatively they might just be looking at mtDNA haplotypes with a high chance of coming up with false positives but a very low chance of giving a false negative (they might find the animals to be related, even if they're not, but if they show up as unrelated it means they are unrelated... unless samples were mixed up or there was a system failure).

I wonder if some people will be bothered by this from an 'invasion'/big brother point of view. I know a lot of people already avoid being licensed because they don't want to sign up to something which allows for wildlife inspectors to show up an have the right to go through all their babies. I wouldn't want to see people saying something like "Well, that's the straw that broke the camel's back, stuff it, I'm not going to get the license, hey, as long as I'm off license I might as well get Corns and Boas too" 

If they are going to get serious about DNA work, I have some animals I would really love them to swab if they are able to keep the DNA samples on the shelf.

In any case, cheap albino Carpets and Spotted Pythons are just around the corner (neither of which can be poached), regular Womas and Black-headeds are cheap now (I assume cheap enough not to be worth bothering to poach), so illegal take from the wild isn't going to be big issue for much longer.

Anyway, the use of DNA technology for keeping tabs on captive reptiles is interesting. I look forward to seeing how it develops.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 19, 2010)

Just going back to the two pictured Dave posted, I wonder what qualification these officers have in handling snakes and taking swabs, since every relocator / demostrator / keeper has to have appropriate "qualifications" in every state.
Also, I don't see them wearing gloves - one thing I would definitely stipulate if someone insisted on handling my snakes.


----------



## AndrewHenderson (Feb 19, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Just going back to the two pictured Dave posted, I wonder what qualification these officers have in handling snakes and taking swabs, since every relocator / demostrator / keeper has to have appropriate "qualifications" in every state.
> Also, I don't see them wearing gloves - one thing I would definitely stipulate if someone insisted on handling my snakes.




HAHA and some extra DNA accidently gets mixed in there.... the results come back saying the snake is related to a DEC officer....


----------



## Bushfire (Feb 19, 2010)

I think most of you are looking too hard or giving the WA DEC way too much credit in this exercise. Having had experienced WA DEC and knowing their inner working, this exercise smells of one thing, to pin someone (plain and simple). Its the only reason why they would go to such lengths and costs. If not to me its a complete waste of resources that will achieve nothing at all. I remember seeing the DEC spending over $15,000 in costs pursuing a keeper which failed in three separate cases and after which they were still considering appealling the results after two appeals went unsecessful. WA DEC have a well documented history of demonstrating their desire to restrict, intimidate, and limit reptile keeping in that state AT ALL COST.

Pilbara you are right about one thing, if you had of refused, they would of been back within an hour with a warrant (but at least the reasons why would of been much clearer, instead of something made up). 

Someone touched on it earlier, and I also agree, wildlife officers are not trained lab tecs (that also goes for all the other states officers too) and are unqualified to perform such tests. Since they are claiming to have a special lab set up for this, why didn't they fly a specialist from it up to over see the first significant test and to ensure the testing procedure was being implemented correctly, a BS story IMO.


----------



## moosenoose (Feb 19, 2010)

Sdaji said:


> Why? Because of the genetics side of things or the quarantine issue? They can already come and inspect your animals, so the quarantine issue hasn't substantially changed. When collecting DNA they would need to use sterile technique, so disease transfer would be reasonably unlikely. When the department's staff have viewed my animals they have been happy for me to show them the animals without having to handle or touch the animals themselves, which I have appreciated. It would be a bit of a nuisance to have this done to the animals, especially if they chose a time when feeding, sloughing or breeding was going to an issue.
> 
> I think it's valuable to be doing the genetic work, but in most cases I can't see it being value for money. I have wanted to do genetic paternity testing on my animals, but it has been prohibitively expensive. A couple of years ago I actually joked with DSE staff about my Water Pythons, saying I should have someone accuse me of doing the wrong thing so that DNA tests could be done, which would confirm that one of my males was the father (and importantly to me, which of the possible males it was). They knew I was joking, but pointed out that the testing is very expensive. Having worked in genetics labs I know what these tests cost, and I am concerned about the waste of money (where would this money be coming from?), but at the same time I am interested to see genetic technology advance, so part of me is happy whenever I see the technology applied.
> 
> ...




Why??????? :lol: I think you already partially answered my question yourself.

I think the main question that needs to be answered is WHY they are doing this? My personal opinion is that "we're" an easy target! They just look at their online records and check who's got what. Those people who aren't doing the right thing and who aren't registered won't get this interference. Does anyone actually think the latter will get checked first??....nope, of course not! We're soft targets for a bunch of "softies"!!! 

If these bodies start targeting people who are flaunting the law and admitting they are actively killing Aussie natives maybe I'd have a little more respect for them. Right now, I don't want to say how I'm thinking. Personally I've got doubts on the reasoning behind it. Of course it'll all be financial! Everything comes back to money! Conservation of these animals would be something along the lines of public education. Something I have seen NOTHING OF!


----------



## AndrewHenderson (Feb 20, 2010)

Bushfire;1647680Having had experienced WA DEC and knowing their inner working said:


> As Dave said in his original post, Their concerns I guess is that each year across Australia many hundreds of reptiles are been illegally collected and passed off as captive bred and this is fairly common knowledge. <----basically saying the have bred within their collection but actually catching wild reptiles and passing them off as captive bred.
> 
> 
> Andrew


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 20, 2010)

I forgot to add that they also took swabs from my 5 Olive pythons as well, they were all wild collected.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 20, 2010)

Dave, did they take details like where and when you snakes were collected (for each specimen)?


----------



## kupper (Feb 20, 2010)

there is still a multitude of holes in this practice , i for one take on board all of your discussions but there is still something lacking from there method which in the end will all come to tatters when it comes down to prosecution of the offender or tracing the offender for that matter


----------



## chilli (Feb 20, 2010)

they might just be sampling to get the data for certain spp, so they have a base to work with down the line.

i'm surprised they didn't let pp know why they were doing it.

it was said that they are empowered by the regs to do it, anyone have a link, i can't find it.

i doubt that they have been lab trained, and if that was the case, using the data for any subsequent prosection would be rejected by most courts, although some, especially NT, accept a very low standard of proof.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 20, 2010)

Spot on! 
I would like to see a scientist who analysed the DNA and interpreted the results in a witness box in court when asked: "is your DNA evidence conclusive?" I think there would be some head scratching and moaning.


----------



## Bushfire (Feb 20, 2010)

AndrewHenderson said:


> As Dave said in his original post, Their concerns I guess is that each year across Australia many hundreds of reptiles are been illegally collected and passed off as captive bred and this is fairly common knowledge. <----basically saying the have bred within their collection but actually catching wild reptiles and passing them off as captive bred.
> 
> 
> Andrew


 
That is a standard response just like when they say "we are here to do a general inspection". They never do a "general inspection" there is always a trigger that causes the inspection. They probably thought Dave was ripping them off in royalties so that triggered the inspection and the testing in an attempt to prove he did. When the test comes back proving Dave hadn't you probably wont hear anything more about it, like magic the 'project' will disappear.

It may will be common knowledge but the departments would need a massive boost in funding and increase in resources to rein it in. This is at a time when the government wants its departments running off next to nothing and making a profit. The project would be just too big for them to handle especially when as WC is allowed, new stock continuously coming in would be a nightmare.


----------



## junglepython2 (Feb 20, 2010)

chilli said:


> they might just be sampling to get the data for certain spp, so they have a base to work with down the line.
> .


 

I think this is much more likely....


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 20, 2010)

The main reason for the inspection was one of connivance I think. The D.E.C were apparently were in Port Hedland for several days secretly anyway, doing inspections and a seizure that went down in Port Hedland involving allegedly about 80 reptiles.
I don't have any details yet as the D.E.C aren’t at liberty to discuss this with me (not that they would anyway) but a Police contact of mine said as much, yesterday.


----------



## baxtor (Feb 20, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> The main reason for the inspection was one of connivance I think. The D.E.C were apparently were in Port Hedland for several days secretly anyway, doing inspections and a seizure that went down in Port Hedland involving allegedly about 80 reptiles.
> I don't have any details yet as the D.E.C aren’t at liberty to discuss this with me (not that they would anyway) but a Police contact of mine said as much, yesterday.



Was that "connivance" or did you mean "convenience"
The first one fits right in with Government Dept's but I get the feeling you meant the second.


----------



## longqi (Feb 20, 2010)

If only they would test all the so called "local" GTPs that are floating around as well

I microchip the majority of my snakes 

Microchipping and or DNA will eventually help eradicate cowboys from the industry


----------



## dottyback (Feb 20, 2010)

carpetmucher said:


> i'm surprised they let their photos be taken and published on the web, especially since their melons look like dropped pies.
> 
> hey pilbara, did they ask you about perthensis and depressa, as that seems to be what's getting them all excited.


 

Those 3 are a pretty bunch compared to gremlins in Victoria!

This is an excellent read, thanks Pilbarrapythons for posting it up!

Like most people here proberly think so much more could be done for herp related conservation than taking swabs and testing DNA..espcially as the price on most species have dropped dramatically in the last 24 months..


----------



## kupper (Feb 20, 2010)

Yeah I could think of more colorful words to use to discribe them


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 20, 2010)

baxtor
I meant convenience, I often wreck my posts by terrible spelling and bad grammar but I am slowly getting better.


----------



## AndrewHenderson (Feb 20, 2010)

although using connivance did make you sound highly intelligent for a second there dave...maybe you are smarter than you think haha...

Connivance - Connivance is the act of conniving or conspiring, especially with the knowledge of and active or passive consent to wrongdoing or a twist in truth to make something appear as something it is not.


Andrew


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Feb 20, 2010)

Sorry my mistake, I really meant that, am I still intelligent ???


----------



## AndrewHenderson (Feb 21, 2010)

Now the DEC will hammer you next time, accusing them of connivance...tsk tsk tsk...


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 21, 2010)

any news on the seizure, it's unusual for the dec not to have a press release within an hour or two stating that it was several hundred thousand dollars worth of animals on the black market.


----------



## Mr.James (Feb 21, 2010)

NSW licensing should be focusing on sorting out there prehistoric paperwork they never seem to get on top of. We pay our fee's & the service is provided is very poor, import and export permits take weeks to organise! I've ordered a new record book twice and still nothing!

DNA testing....WA you can keep that! They can't even get the basics right around here...


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 21, 2010)

Mr.Boyd said:


> NSW licensing should be focusing on sorting out there prehistoric paperwork they never seem to get on top of. We pay our fee's & the service is provided is very poor, import and export permits take weeks to organise! I've ordered a new record book twice and still nothing!
> 
> DNA testing....WA you can keep that! They can't even get the basics right around here...




No one on this forum (or any other) is going to help the situation - write to Peter Gareth, your MP, the Minister for Parks & Wildlife in your state and the Director of your fauna authority department. Lobby with your politicians, write 'letters to the editor' in your local newspaper.
Oh, we don't want to get on the wrong side of the bureaucrats, I forgot.


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 21, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> Why??????? :lol: I think you already partially answered my question yourself.
> 
> I think the main question that needs to be answered is WHY they are doing this? My personal opinion is that "we're" an easy target! They just look at their online records and check who's got what. Those people who aren't doing the right thing and who aren't registered won't get this interference. Does anyone actually think the latter will get checked first??....nope, of course not! We're soft targets for a bunch of "softies"!!!
> 
> If these bodies start targeting people who are flaunting the law and admitting they are actively killing Aussie natives maybe I'd have a little more respect for them. Right now, I don't want to say how I'm thinking. Personally I've got doubts on the reasoning behind it. Of course it'll all be financial! Everything comes back to money! Conservation of these animals would be something along the lines of public education. Something I have seen NOTHING OF!



While I agree that if they are using DNA technology to regulate licensed keepers they are spending a massive amount of resources to do a very small amount of good by having a small amount of impact on the wrongdoings of the people who most closely follow the laws, while ignoring the bigger issues where more good could be done with less money and effort, I'm not sure why you said "Sdaji will have a fit". Other than my background in genetics and perhaps my OCD when it comes to quarantine, I don't see how this issue relates to me more than anyone else. My knowledge of genetics makes me more interested than most and I understand it more, my concerns about quarantine are significant but hopefully not unusual, but that won't make me fit and I'm otherwise just another member of the crowd which wants to keep snakes within the law.

I do agree with you, they're probably going after licensed keepers because it is easy for them to do it. We all put our names down and sign contracts allowing them access to our animals and facilities - we are the people who willingly allow ourselves to be regulated. As I said, it concerns me that this may be an incentive to push even more people to remain unlicensed. I would be sad if we saw more people going underground in order to remain unknown and unregulated by the authorities. It would cost much less money to go after unlicensed keepers, but perhaps they are concerned about their personal safety if they try to carry out effective busts, and perhaps with some justification. I don't think there is any point trying to prosecute people who kill wild snakes. As much as it would be nice if people would leave wild snakes to live, much of the wider community just isn't ready to be forced into it, and you could never convict anyone because if it went to court they would say they feared for their lives. The only way you could convict a snake killer would be if they admitted to it without realising they had broken the law, but if you then prosecuted there would be a backlash from the community who would seek to kill snakes and then say "Oh, I feared for my life, uh huh, I honestly thought I was in danger". Education of the public would be more effective, I think at this stage it would be best to encourage the public not to kill snakes rather than a futile attempt to enforce it. They could either point out that trying to kill snakes is often more dangerous than leaving them alone, or they could even have a go at putting a "If you're really tough you'll be happy to let a live snake go on living" type spin on things, making it look cowardly to kill a snake. To carry out significant DNA tests across Australia would cost millions of dollars. Imagine if they put millions of dollars into a "Don't kill snakes" publicity campaign! Of course, it won't happen, because the moment they tell people not to kill snakes someone will get bitten and say that if they'd killed the snake the bite wouldn't have occurred, and they'll sue the government (despite the fact that they will probably have been bitten when trying to kill the snake anyway).

Aside from whether or not they should be doing it, I can't understand why they would want to be taking DNA samples from wild caught Olive Pythons. What are they trying to achieve there? The whole thing puzzles me given that the DNA testing is so expensive, and they're working on snakes which are now so cheap that some legitimate keepers have already stopped bothering to breed.

Dave: Were the wildlife staff friendly about things? Did you have a chat about what they were trying to do? Or was it more a case of "Stand aside and let us do what we want to do. You stay quiet while we do it"? Regardless of whether or not it's a good use of money, I would be very interested to know what they're doing and what genetic techniques they're using.

Has anyone else had DNA taken from their reptiles?


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 21, 2010)

Sdaji, you seem to be putting lot of emphasis on "killing snakes" by the public. Do you see that as a real problem affecting snake conservation? I would have thought that number one threat is land clearing / development, number two; road traffic, number three: the indiscriminate use of chemicals in pest control and very lastly: poaching.
Public education is very important but I really think that the number of people reaching out for stick to kill a snake is totally insignificant.


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 21, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Sdaji, you seem to be putting lot of emphasis on "killing snakes" by the public. Do you see that as a real problem affecting snake conservation? I would have thought that number one threat is land clearing / development, number two; road traffic, number three: the indiscriminate use of chemicals in pest control and very lastly: poaching.
> Public education is very important but I really think that the number of people reaching out for stick to kill a snake is totally insignificant.



I agree entirely, I don't think that Joe Average putting a shovel through the neck of every snake he sees is going to have a big impact on populations, except maybe in a few isolated areas. I was responding to Moosenoose's post, which I thought implied that Joe Average's shovel probably does more damage to snake populations than Joe Reptile Keeper, which I'd say is true. Obviously those two put together are nothing compared to some of the other problems. 

I would say the big two are introduced species and habitat destruction. Everything else is tiny in comparison to the big two. Road traffic is probably hundreds of times worse than poaching and if it's not hundreds of times worse it's thousands, but still it's nothing compared to introduced species and land clearance/habitat loss. The heavy use of chemicals is largely restricted to areas which have already been converted to agriculture or urban usage, although I suppose you could call it a threat because developed land can support reptile populations, and chemicals still probably kill more snakes than blokes with shovels.

Moosenoose might have been thinking more in terms of public opinion having more far reaching affects than simply bloked whacking snakes to death. If the public wants to whack snakes to death, they have a mentality which is not likely to lead to them saying "Gee, I think I'll oppose the building of that new shopping center, because there is a valuable population of snakes which lives on that land". If we were to say "Please oppose this development, save the snakes" they would respond with "Clear the land now so all those bloody snakes can die ASAP!". It's people who make the decision to destroy habitat or introduce new species, or to protect land or wipe out exotic species. Because of that, public education is more valuable than simply stopping a few guys from whacking the odd snake.


----------



## Waterrat (Feb 21, 2010)

Ditto.

I think we are all waiting for more news from Dave - very interesting events happening in the Wild West.


----------



## stencorp69 (Feb 21, 2010)

I can see some real positives from DNA records particularly in WA. It is possible Dave Pearson and other may use the information for research purposes of Woma and Olives. This information will be availalble under FOI at a later date.

It would be good to know the motivations for the testing to help facilitate DEC and build a partnership between them and the hobby. WAHS has a meeting with DEC tomorrow so I'll raise it with Gordon Wire and see if we can get some clarification.

SW


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 21, 2010)

any news on the seizure, c'mon 80 animals must be the record bust and dec aren't bragging about it. what is going on!


----------



## hardcorey007 (Feb 22, 2010)

My first thought when I saw that this was being done to BHP's was because they are trying to prevent people claiming that they have bred albino BHP's when indeed they were smuggeled into the country. I think it is a fair statement that some of the albino and\or het BHP's have already been smuggled into the country. So I believe there will be posts in the near future along the lines of 'wow look what popped out in this clutch of BHP's that I produced'. If they have a DNA line they can at least prove or disprove these cases. The more generations of DNA they have the harder it is to slip in smuggled animals. Same goes for any other smuggled in morphs. Jags are another example. I guess their only concern then is from people who are allowed to collect from the wild because they can smuggle, or have animals smuggled on their behalf, and say they collected them from the wild. It's pretty hard to prove other wise because they can't DNA the parents.

This theory was however blown out of the water when I re-read the post and saw that they sampled Womas too. ***Maybe the womas are a smoke screen****OH conspiracy theory*** LOL


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Feb 22, 2010)

hardcorey007 said:


> My first thought when I saw that this was being done to BHP's was because they are trying to prevent people claiming that they have bred albino BHP's when indeed they were smuggeled into the country. I think it is a fair statement that some of the albino and\or het BHP's have already been smuggled into the country. So I believe there will be posts in the near future along the lines of 'wow look what popped out in this clutch of BHP's that I produced'. If they have a DNA line they can at least prove or disprove these cases. The more generations of DNA they have the harder it is to slip in smuggled animals. Same goes for any other smuggled in morphs. Jags are another example. I guess their only concern then is from people who are allowed to collect from the wild because they can smuggle, or have animals smuggled on their behalf, and say they collected them from the wild. It's pretty hard to prove other wise because they can't DNA the parents.
> 
> This theory was however blown out of the water when I re-read the post and saw that they sampled Womas too. ***Maybe the womas are a smoke screen****OH conspiracy theory*** LOL



There are way too many animals in captivity and loopholes in the law to guard against the "legalisation" of imported native morphs.


----------



## CodeRed (Feb 22, 2010)

hardcorey007 said:


> My first thought when I saw that this was being done to BHP's was because they are trying to prevent people claiming that they have bred albino BHP's when indeed they were smuggeled into the country. I think it is a fair statement that some of the albino and\or het BHP's have already been smuggled into the country. So I believe there will be posts in the near future along the lines of 'wow look what popped out in this clutch of BHP's that I produced'. If they have a DNA line they can at least prove or disprove these cases. The more generations of DNA they have the harder it is to slip in smuggled animals. Same goes for any other smuggled in morphs. Jags are another example. I guess their only concern then is from people who are allowed to collect from the wild because they can smuggle, or have animals smuggled on their behalf, and say they collected them from the wild. It's pretty hard to prove other wise because they can't DNA the parents.
> 
> This theory was however blown out of the water when I re-read the post and saw that they sampled Womas too. ***Maybe the womas are a smoke screen****OH conspiracy theory*** LOL



There are albino womas too , but I dont think thats the reason behind it all


----------



## moosenoose (Feb 22, 2010)

Sdaji said:


> I'm not sure why you said "Sdaji will have a fit".



Because I could imagine this case scenario if they dropped in to visit you  …and before you mention that quarantine issues shouldn’t be taken lightly, I’m not actually disagreeing with you  :lol: 









> Moosenoose might have been thinking more in terms of public opinion having more far reaching affects than simply bloked whacking snakes to death. If the public wants to whack snakes to death, they have a mentality which is not likely to lead to them saying "Gee, I think I'll oppose the building of that new shopping center, because there is a valuable population of snakes which lives on that land". If we were to say "Please oppose this development, save the snakes" they would respond with "Clear the land now so all those bloody snakes can die ASAP!". It's people who make the decision to destroy habitat or introduce new species, or to protect land or wipe out exotic species. Because of that, public education is more valuable than simply stopping a few guys from whacking the odd snake.



You are correct here Sdaji; I probably didn’t word it all that well (but maybe I sort of did as you’ve summed it up in the paragraph above).

I am talking about the “overall” problems for reptiles in the sense of the bigger picture. These bodies are trying to control one tiny aspect of people who are generally all for the conservation of these animals (admittedly a minority out there are exploiting it), but here they are prepared to potentially “soft-target” various keepers and breeders and throwing what appears to be expensive resources at a lesser problem. It’s like (in my opinion) someone erecting a large expensive sign that says “reptiles, please look before crossing the road” and banging that on an 8 lane freeway and saying you’ve done something wonderful for conservation – pointless! Is it being done to satisfy a budget or something? Perhaps? I’d love to know the real reason behind it, but we shouldn’t expect any transparency from these people. Like driving a car, owning reptiles is a privilege, not a right. One thing you could almost bank on is the fact that this work is not being done because some “good, kind-hearted group” wants to do some investigative DNA work, this is obviously being done to check up on people and tighten the screws on the hobby. 

ON the other hand, perhaps rattling a few cages is all it’s designed to do? Is that a bad thing? I can’t help always feeling a little sceptical when stuff like this goes on.


----------



## AndrewHenderson (Feb 22, 2010)

carpetmucher said:


> any news on the seizure, c'mon 80 animals must be the record bust and dec aren't bragging about it. what is going on!



Pretty sure they are getting the evidence, statements and story in order before going out to the media with their balloons and party hats on....


Andrew


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 23, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> Because I could imagine this case scenario if they dropped in to visit you  …and before you mention that quarantine issues shouldn’t be taken lightly, I’m not actually disagreeing with you  :lol:



But why me? Seems strange. When I've had DSE staff inspect my animals I have actually offered to provide DNA samples (which as I expected, they refused because it is prohibitively expensive to do anything with them unless it involves a heavily suspected case of chondro smuggling or something). The staff were very reasonable and courteous, they gave me no reason to be any different to them, I can't see why I would have a fit.


----------



## carpetmuncher (Feb 23, 2010)

AndrewHenderson said:


> Pretty sure they are getting the evidence, statements and story in order before going out to the media with their balloons and party hats on....
> 
> 
> Andrew


 
are you sure they do it in that order? or do they have a new policy?


----------



## stencorp69 (Feb 23, 2010)

moosenoose said:


> One thing you could almost bank on is the fact that this work is not being done because some “good, kind-hearted group” wants to do some investigative DNA work, this is obviously being done to check up on people and tighten the screws on the hobby.
> 
> ON the other hand, perhaps rattling a few cages is all it’s designed to do? Is that a bad thing? I can’t help always feeling a little sceptical when stuff like this goes on.


 
WAHS had a meeting with DEC yesterday and I bought up the DNA testing. The response from David Mel and Peter Mawson was that swabs were being taking to track progeny. 

The practise was first undertaken for breeders of black cockatoos. The season previous to DNA sampling in Black Cockatoos there were 189 captive bred chicks recorded, the season after there was one. It apparently took 5 years for CB levels to get back up to pre DNA testing levels.

DEC stated motivation is similar for herps - too ensure there is an incentive to CB that is harder to circumvented by taking from the wild illegally.

SW


----------



## moosenoose (Feb 23, 2010)

Sdaji said:


> But why me? Seems strange. When I've had DSE staff inspect my animals I have actually offered to provide DNA samples (which as I expected, they refused because it is prohibitively expensive to do anything with them unless it involves a heavily suspected case of chondro smuggling or something). The staff were very reasonable and courteous, they gave me no reason to be any different to them, I can't see why I would have a fit.



You always seems overly paranoid, that's all :lol: Get over it, before you have a fit   



stencorp69 said:


> WAHS had a meeting with DEC yesterday and I bought up the DNA testing. The response from David Mel and Peter Mawson was that swabs were being taking to track progeny.
> 
> The practise was first undertaken for breeders of black cockatoos. The season previous to DNA sampling in Black Cockatoos there were 189 captive bred chicks recorded, the season after there was one. It apparently took 5 years for CB levels to get back up to pre DNA testing levels.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Stencorp


----------

