# Usa ban



## longqi (Jan 18, 2012)

Date: January 17, 2012

Contact: Adam Fetcher (DOI) 202-208-6416
Valerie Fellows (FWS) 703-358 2285

Salazar Announces Ban on Importation and Interstate Transportation of Four 
Giant Snakes that Threaten Everglades

WASHINGTON, DC – The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has finalized a rule 
that would ban the importation and interstate transportation of four 
nonnative constrictor snakes that threaten the Everglades and other 
sensitive ecosystems across the United States, Secretary of the Interior 
Ken Salazar announced today. 

The final rule – which incorporates public comments, economic analysis, 
and environmental assessment – lists the Burmese python, the yellow 
anaconda, and the northern and southern African pythons as injurious 
wildlife under the Lacey Act in order to restrict their spread in the wild 
in the United States. It is expected to publish in the Federal Register in 
the coming days.

“Thanks to the work of our scientists, Senator Bill Nelson, and others, 
there is a large and growing understanding of the real and immediate 
threat that the Burmese python and other invasive snakes pose to the 
Everglades and other ecosystems in the United States,” Salazar said. “The 
Burmese python has already gained a foothold in the Florida Everglades, 
and we must do all we can to battle its spread and to prevent further 
human contributions of invasive snakes that cause economic and 
environmental damage.”

The four species were assessed by the U.S. Geological Survey as having a 
high risk of establishing populations and spreading to other geographic 
areas in that agency’s 2009 report, Giant Constrictors: Biological and 
Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk Assessment for Large Species 
of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor. 

Sixty days after publication of the final rule in the Federal Register, 
interstate transport and importation of live individuals, gametes, viable 
eggs, or hybrids of the Burmese python, northern and southern African 
pythons and yellow anaconda into the United States will be prohibited. 
None of these species is native to the United States. 

“Burmese pythons have already caused substantial harm in Florida,” said 
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe. “By taking this action 
today, we will help prevent further harm from these large constrictor 
snakes to native wildlife, especially in habitats that can support 
constrictor snake populations across the southern United States and in 
U.S. territories.”

Ashe said the Service will continue to consider listing as injurious the 
five other species of nonnative snakes that the agency also proposed in 
2010 – the reticulated python, boa constrictor, DeSchauensee’s anaconda, 
green anaconda and Beni anaconda.

Most people who own any of these four species will not be affected. Those 
who own any of these four species of snakes will be allowed to keep them 
if allowed by state law. However, they cannot take, send, or sell them 
across state lines. Those who wish to export these species may do so from 
a designated port within their state after acquiring appropriate permits 
from the Service.

The Burmese python has established breeding populations in South Florida, 
including the Everglades, that have caused significant damage to wildlife 
and that continue to pose a great risk to many native species, including 
threatened and endangered species. Burmese pythons on North Key Largo have 
killed and eaten highly endangered Key Largo wood rats, and other pythons 
preyed on endangered wood storks. 

In the Everglades alone, state and federal agencies have spent millions of 
dollars addressing threats posed by pythons – an amount far less than is 
needed to combat their spread. If these species spread to other areas, 
state and federal agencies in these areas could be forced to spend more 
money for control and containment purposes.

Interior and its partners, including the Florida Fish and Wildlife 
Conservation Commission (FWC), South Florida Water Management District, 
and others are committed to controlling the spread of Burmese pythons and 
other large nonnative constrictors. For example, FWC recently implemented 
the use of a “snake sniffing” dog to help in its efforts to find and 
eradicate large constrictor snakes. This dog was present at the 
Secretary’s announcement today, along with a 13-foot-long Burmese python.

Under the injurious wildlife provisions of the Lacey Act, the Department 
of the Interior is authorized to regulate the importation and interstate 
transport of wildlife species determined to be injurious to humans, the 
interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry, or to wildlife or the 
wildlife resources of the United States.

For more information on injurious wildlife and efforts to list the four 
species of snakes as injurious under the Lacey Act, please visit: 
http://www.fws.gov/invasives/news.html. 

###


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## Danster (Jan 18, 2012)

lol thanks for the post longqi; looks like they are finally shutting the gate after the horse has bolted!! But good news still, the Everglades look a stunning place and we all know how delicate these ecosystems can be. Cheers!


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## Kurto (Jan 18, 2012)

Danster said:


> lol thanks for the post longqi; looks like they are finally shutting the gate after the horse has bolted!! But good news still, the Everglades look a stunning place and we all know how delicate these ecosystems can be. Cheers!




Thats not good news! I feel for those who take proper care for these awesome snakes, let alone those who have made a living from them.


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## DarwinBrianT (Jan 18, 2012)

Kurto said:


> Thats not good news! I feel for those who take proper care for these awesome snakes, let alone those who have made a living from them.



They get to keep them by the look of that. 
"Most people who own any of these four species will not be affected. Those 
who own any of these four species of snakes will be allowed to keep them 
if allowed by state law."


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## longqi (Jan 18, 2012)

It is a very political decision but quite interesting

Kurto
Anyone can still own and trade these snakes within their own state
They can export out of USA
They can still breed the snakes and licensed breeders can still send interstate with a permit
But they can no longer import them [considering that they imported over 7,800 cites listed snakes in 2009 thats a good thing for wild stocks]

Interesting part was that there are no vens on the list
Pythons may endanger a small [but significant] part of USA ecology but few human lives

Imagine a warehouse full of tiger or brown snakes getting blown over in a hurricane
They could live quite successfully in the majority of USA and would pose a much larger threat


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## cement (Jan 18, 2012)

This is just a prime example of what can happen when there is no regulation. It affects everyone... even the citizens who don't keep and never will keep snakes will be affected because they need taxpayers money to clean up the mess.

For those who did keep and breed these snakes, it's a matter of them backing the wrong horse...that's life. They will get over it and they can still keep their pets.

When I think of this scenario and then imagine it playing out in say Iron Range NP, I am glad that we have our system of no import. Whether its as big as a giant snake or as small as a toad, what a couple of people want can affect everyone. The grass isn't greener on the other side. And our prevention is better then their cure.


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## Wrightpython (Jan 18, 2012)

Wont it just make there value go up and start a underground market. your not allowed to import into Aust but look how many non natives are here already.


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## longqi (Jan 18, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> Wont it just make there value go up and start a underground market. your not allowed to import into Aust but look how many non natives are here already.



I dont think that will happen because the law isnt really that tough
You can own the pythons and buy and sell them and export them
Just cannot sell them interstate or import them


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## PMyers (Jan 18, 2012)

One would have imagined the general climate north of Florida would be enough to restrict their spread in the wild. 

I can't find the link at the moment, but I remember reading recently an article published by a pro-ban party that stated "scientific studies" had shown these snakes could "swim in the ocean to California" (from Florida, mind you), or, more incredibly, "hitch a ride on an alligator". If I find it, I'll post it... 'cause it had me in stitches for hours


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## Retic (Jan 18, 2012)

When you say 'our prevention' what do you mean exactly ? No one has prevented just about every exotic species imaginable being available illegally in this country. If you mean it isn't legal to import these animals then you are correct but I understand drugs are illegal too and we can see how effective that is. 



cement said:


> This is just a prime example of what can happen when there is no regulation. It affects everyone... even the citizens who don't keep and never will keep snakes will be affected because they need taxpayers money to clean up the mess.
> 
> For those who did keep and breed these snakes, it's a matter of them backing the wrong horse...that's life. They will get over it and they can still keep their pets.
> 
> When I think of this scenario and then imagine it playing out in say Iron Range NP, I am glad that we have our system of no import. Whether its as big as a giant snake or as small as a toad, what a couple of people want can affect everyone. The grass isn't greener on the other side. And our prevention is better then their cure.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 18, 2012)

Just the thin end of the wedge... It won't be long till the conservatives in our own wildlife authorities begin pruning back our already restricted activities here. Maybe there are two sides to every story, but we should all think very long & hard before we hand back any freedoms we have fought hard to gain.

Jamie


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## Retic (Jan 18, 2012)

Exactly why I cringe when I see the 'we're alright Jack' comments. 



Pythoninfinite said:


> Just the thin end of the wedge... It won't be long till the conservatives in our own wildlife authorities begin pruning back our already restricted activities here. Maybe there are two sides to every story, but we should all think very long & hard before we hand back any freedoms we have fought hard to gain.
> 
> Jamie


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## AM Pythons (Jan 18, 2012)

talk on facebook by the americans this morning is that this is the start of a USA ban on all reptiles, once PETA & other groups get hold of this its a 'back door' into a ban on all reptiles as pets..


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## Ramsayi (Jan 18, 2012)

AM Pythons said:


> talk on facebook by the americans this morning is that this is the start of a USA ban on all reptiles, once PETA & other groups get hold of this its a 'back door' into a ban on all reptiles as pets..



Somehow I doubt this very much considering around 5 million households have pet reptiles of one form or another.


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Somehow I doubt this very much considering around 5 million households have pet reptiles of one form or another.



If I understand correctly, what was strange about this act was that these species of python were added to a national law, when there was no evidence that they posed any invasive species risk outside Southern Florida. But now it's illegal, punishable by law by means of thousands of dollars, to take your retic with you when you move house across state lines. What that does to stop the *burmese* in the everglades, who knows....

But despite a fair bit of publicity from USARK etc, apparently only 27 000 reptile keepers have participated in the coordinated letter writing effort to date. So is the willingness to stick up for a minority of the hobby there? I don't know. I also understand that a bigger issue is state and county laws/ordinances which can be passed more quietly.


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## Addam (Jan 18, 2012)

so in other words they are bringing in similar rules to what we have? no import, permits to export interstate, and you'll need a specific licence to have a big snake? seems pretty simple


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## Fuscus (Jan 18, 2012)

Big snake - hundreds of young which sell at the local pet barn for $20 at a cute half a meter. At one year in a good paddock they are three meters, at two 4 to 5. You cannot tell me that this is not a recipe for disaster.


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

Fuscus said:


> Big snake - hundreds of young which sell at the local pet barn for $20 at a cute half a meter. At one year in a good paddock they are three meters, at two 4 to 5. You cannot tell me that this is not a recipe for disaster.



You do have a point, sellers should exercise good judgment too, but that in and of itself does not justify any particular action. When presented in the manner you have, it sounds like a recipe for disaster. But is it actually? Are you able to show any cakes that you prepared earlier? Particularly, any that would be solved by classing these big constrictors as injurious animals under the Lacey act? 

I can't make any comment on the alleged growth rates of your unnamed snakes


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## Ramsayi (Jan 18, 2012)

killimike said:


> You do have a point, sellers should exercise good judgment too, but that in and of itself does not justify any particular action. When presented in the manner you have, it sounds like a recipe for disaster. But is it actually? Are you able to show any cakes that you prepared earlier? Particularly, any that would be solved by classing these big constrictors as injurious animals under the Lacey act?
> 
> I can't make any comment on the alleged growth rates of your unnamed snakes



12- foot python kills toddler - New Orleans Top News | Examiner.com
1996 Darwin Award: Hungry Python Kills Owner


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> 12- foot python kills toddler - New Orleans Top News | Examiner.com
> 1996 Darwin Award: Hungry Python Kills Owner



Thanks for those Ramsayi!

While they are both tragic incidents, I do not believe they will be solved by classing big constrictors as injurious animals. Perhaps the licencing requirement will have some impact, but would these particular individuals have followed it? 

And in the case of the Darwin awards example, which could be nothing more than a tragic accident, perhaps involving keeper error, the previsions of the Lacey act would not have prevented it. The New Orleans example is particularly sad, but as I'm sure you are aware, hardly representative. There was alot more to it than a snake.... It would be an error to validate nation wide changes with an appeal to this incident.

The fact that these two examples, particularly the New Orleans one, keep coming out highlights the rarity of these kinds of incidents. And the lack of a case for big constrictors having invasive potential outside of FL.


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## Ramsayi (Jan 18, 2012)

killimike said:


> The fact that these two examples, particularly the New Orleans one, keep coming out highlights the rarity of these kinds of incidents. And the lack of a case for big constrictors having invasive potential outside of FL.



I'm sure if you did some googling it wouldn't be too difficult to find more examples.

I'm also quite sure that a lot of reptiles keepers in this country have no or at least a very limited knowledge of just how dangerous large boids can be.


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> I'm sure if you did some googling it wouldn't be too difficult to find more examples.
> 
> I'm also quite sure that a lot of reptiles keepers in this country have no or at least a very limited knowledge of just how dangerous large boids can be.



I'm sure you are perfectly correct on both counts


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## Retic (Jan 18, 2012)

I very much doubt that going to happen, it is one thing introducing a ban on a small number of potentially dangerous species and quite another to ban all species.



AM Pythons said:


> talk on facebook by the americans this morning is that this is the start of a USA ban on all reptiles, once PETA & other groups get hold of this its a 'back door' into a ban on all reptiles as pets..


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## Retic (Jan 18, 2012)

Actually no, this is really nothing like what we have here. This only applies to 4 specific species and a license isn't required to have one of those species. 



Addam said:


> so in other words they are bringing in similar rules to what we have? no import, permits to export interstate, and you'll need a specific licence to have a big snake? seems pretty simple


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## Fuscus (Jan 18, 2012)

killimike said:


> You do have a point, sellers should exercise good judgment too, but that in and of itself does not justify any particular action.


Huh? So what, in your opinion, justifies any action?


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

Fuscus said:


> Huh? So what, in your opinion, justifies any action?



Sorry for being unclear. I simply meant that you need a better justification for this particular act, the changing the classification of large constrictors, than saying that they are sometimes sold inappropriately in pet shops. That's why I also asked for evidence of problems caused by them being sold inappropriately in petshops. These problems might warrant, or justify , the change in legal status of these animals. That's my opinion.


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## -Peter (Jan 18, 2012)

This hasn't been enacted yet and needs to be presented to both the senate and the congress first.


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## Boondocker (Jan 18, 2012)

-Peter said:


> This hasn't been enacted yet and needs to be presented to both the senate and the congress first.




No, it is already finalised and does not need brought before congress. They will publish the rule in the Federal Register, which is a public record, and it takes effect 60 days after that. All done.


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## longqi (Jan 18, 2012)

Im almost certain there have been 10 python caused deaths in USA
Considering the numbers of pythons sold that is a pretty low percentage

Injurious in this case meant harmful to the ecology rather than harmful to humans even though the anti brigade used the death of that 2 year old as a very powerful/emotional argument


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## cement (Jan 18, 2012)

boa said:


> When you say 'our prevention' what do you mean exactly ? No one has prevented just about every exotic species imaginable being available illegally in this country. If you mean it isn't legal to import these animals then you are correct but I understand drugs are illegal too and we can see how effective that is.



What I mean is, yeah, there are illegally imported animals here sure, but if it was legal to import like the states then there is a much higher chance that we will have something of this nature happen somewhere in our country. The odd wild colony of corn snakes at belrose or frenchs forest isn't really a big problem, but something of the magnitude of (Burmese in the Everglades) in a world heritage listed area would be. Do you see? I have no knowledge of the numbers of imported exotics or the number of keepers keeping or breeding them, and i doubt that anyone does, so your comment about the availability of just about every exotic species imaginable sounds a bit of a stretch. They may be available to you... but certainly not the majority.



boa said:


> Exactly why I cringe when I see the 'we're alright Jack' comments.



What do you mean by 'we're alright Jack' comments? I don't see any.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 18, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Somehow I doubt this very much considering around 5 million households have pet reptiles of one form or another.



Groups like PETA have very skilled political strategists, and they're in it for the very long haul. "Banning" is a very blunt and obvious instrument, but restricting the movement of, free trading in, breeding of, etc etc, are seemingly subtle ways of getting a foot in the door and reducing the numbers to a politically less threatening mass. Basically it will be regarded as the first successful step in a long campaign, by very well funded and highly politically active organisations, to "free" animals from the tyranny of captivity. Animal rights groups usually dress their ambitions as "animal welfare"... and who would argue that the welfare of animals is important?

Idiotic and irresponsible keepers have handed the lobbyists a golden key to the doors of politicians' offices in this case. It will happen here too - the NSW Reptile Keepers Code of Practice has animal rights fingerprints all over it, and despite many requests for clarification about the status of this legislation, the silence, even from the highest levels of OEH, is deafening.

NEVER be complacent about the intentions of these groups or the bureaucrats they influence. Many of us have worked long and hard to get where we are today, and we are mindful that our hard-won gains are resented by many individuals who fought against change in the last decade or more. They're still out there...

Jamie


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

Very well said Jamie!

HSUS is now openly saying they will push to stamp out the trade of large constrictors altogether. Thin end of the wedge indeed.


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## longqi (Jan 18, 2012)

killimike said:


> Very well said Jamie!
> 
> HSUS is now openly saying they will push to stamp out the trade of large constrictors altogether. Thin end of the wedge indeed.



Its been open slather for the pet trade for far too long overseas
So its about time some restrictions were put in place as large pythons will cause more human deaths because any of them 5 metres or more are very very powerful animals and far too many are treated too frivolously by owners

I totally understand about idiots like PETA and their backing but reptiles are different to orangutans etc
With them they get the sympathy vote
Sympathy vote for snakes is a bit harder to get
Fear will end up being their major weapon
Especially if a few keepers get tagged by vens or vens escape


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## Jeffa (Jan 18, 2012)

It is like getting herpes and than putting on a condom so you might not get venerial disease. Too little to late.
I have an idea... lets get corn snakes, ball pythons etc and think about the problems 10 years from now.

The realistics are that they may reduce the numbers of the problem python in the everglades but they will never be able to eradicate it.


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## killimike (Jan 18, 2012)

longqi said:


> Its been open slather for the pet trade for far too long overseas
> So its about time some restrictions were put in place as large pythons will cause more human deaths because any of them 5 metres or more are very very powerful animals and far too many are treated too frivolously by owners
> 
> I totally understand about idiots like PETA and their backing but reptiles are different to orangutans etc
> ...



I totally agree Peter. People like Al Coritz on the vens side of things seem to have been saying the same thing as you have, reptile industry needs to police its own before it gets done for em. Vens are statistically much more dangerous than large constrictors, tho that is not saying a whole lot in itself, so they had better watch out.


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## cement (Jan 18, 2012)

The new law doesn't address the problem. 
Problem being an exotic, invasive species going rampant in a natural wonderland.
They are still allowed to keep the snakes so nothing changes there.

Here in Aus, we should be grateful for the lesson that their problem can teach us, without having to go through it.
I don't see what this new overseas law and the animal rights movements and their campaigns have to do with us learning from their mistakes.

The only point I am trying to make is that the root of the problem was that they imported exotic species, which we can't. The worse their scenario grows including the input from the weirdos, is a good learning curve for us to remember why we can't import exotics. On a selfish level I would love a retic, but I will happily go without if it means i can go back country and see AUSTRALIA. Which may not last much longer anyway...


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