# Jags, for or against



## GeckoJosh (Dec 16, 2011)

Hey guys,

I thought it would be interesting to run an anonymous poll to gauge how the APS community really feels about the subject without the added peer pressure.

So here we go.


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## IgotFrogs (Dec 16, 2011)

For reasons i gave in chat lol ....


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 17, 2011)

Bump


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## Bel03 (Dec 17, 2011)

I would never personally own a jag, however i dont think its anyone's business if others do. It is the same as dogs really, some like cross breeds while others only go for pure's. At the end of the day, who cares if someone else has a different opinion to your own, we are individuals for a reason.


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 17, 2011)

I wrote this in another similar thread, it still suits. 

"Is it just me getting a bit annoyed with all the fuss people are making over all this pure vs jag vs morph. Everyone will have their own opinion on what they like. There will always be people breeding pure reps, there will always be someone breeding something different (jag/morph/rpm). Find a seller who breeds what you want then buy from them. Don't worry yourself with what others are doing."

I would own a jag if I had more room, I voted for.


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## emmabee (Dec 17, 2011)

*different veiwpoint on jags*

i personally own a mix of Jags, sibs pures and crosses of morelia.
i can say that the Jag nuro issues are nothing like you would be led to believe reading this forum and i also read in another thread that Jag breeders freeze the normals out of the clutch!
whilst some breeders who do it for the money might they are so few its a bit of a joke to state that. i have a Jag sib and the market over here for them is healthy.

as for the nuro stuff i have one that shows NO symptons at all and one who shows as a neck weakness. they are not thick or retarded snakes just a little uncoordinated (the bad one) they are active, healthy snakes who do just the same as all my other species.

im not just totally Jag mad as i own and seek to own many different pure lines of your natives (future list is BHP,darwins, rockhamptons and stimsons, current list inclued olives, womas and morelia)

i havent voted as i dont think its my place to, but before slating them i think some of you need first hand experiance of the issues and not just hear say.

if you want pures buy pures, if you want jags or crosses buy them! choice is a good thing for the hobby anywhere in the world and as long as the snakes are labelled what they are what is the problem????:?


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## Boidae (Dec 17, 2011)

I do not like Jags, but I understand why a lot of people do. They are a beautiful and unique species. 
But to me, no 'double het for this X whatever' morph will ever compare to a good old Bredls or Olive. 
I just love how naturally beautiful our animals are.


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 17, 2011)

I think as long as the sellers give the buyers all the info on possible Neuro issues they are OK. I can't help but think that as more come onto the market they will just get sold without any info given on them. This is where buying from a reputable seller/breeder will come into play.
Paul


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## emmabee (Dec 17, 2011)

boidae said:


> I do not like Jags, but I understand why a lot of people do. They are a beautiful and unique species.
> But to me, no 'double het for this X whatever' morph will ever compare to a good old Bredls or Olive.
> I just love how naturally beautiful our animals are.



well said! i adore your natives such as the olives, womas and bredliand think they are simply amazing, my olive is stunning and very interesting to keep, but i keep morphs too and love them for a differet beauty.


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## Vixen (Dec 17, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> "Is it just me getting a bit annoyed with all the fuss people are making over all this pure vs jag vs morph. Everyone will have their own opinion on what they like. There will always be people breeding pure reps, there will always be someone breeding something different (jag/morph/rpm). Find a seller who breeds what you want then buy from them. Don't worry yourself with what others are doing."



There is one major flaw in that idea though why is why I am so against Jags. It's easy for people say well if you don't like them, find a breeder who focuses on pure lines etc. It's the fact that some Jag siblings can be passed off as 'pure' animals - it only takes one mistake for one to be bred into a line by accident, and then THAT seller goes on to sell babies unknowingly - and it will just dig a deeper and deeper hole and make it that much harder for us purists to know the origins of an animal and where some have been muddied. This could easily be fixed by blunt truth and honesty, but that's a world too perfect to even imagine!

That and the fact I have already been accused multiple times that my 'RP Coastals' indeed have Jag in them. They do NOT, they are a pure line thank you! Jags may be pretty but they just cause too much trouble in the hobby, even for people that have nothing to do with them - how dare people try and muddy my name and animals when I do my very best to keep away from the darn things. 

Then back to the main point of opposition, that people breed them knowing they are producing inferior offspring that have neurological disorders. Don't try to sugar coat the fact, ALL jags will show signs of it at some point in their life, sadly some more than others.


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 17, 2011)

Amazing Amazon said:


> I think as long as the sellers give the buyers all the info on possible Neuro issues they are OK. I can't help but think that as more come onto the market they will just get sold without any info given on them. This is where buying from a reputable seller/breeder will come into play.
> Paul[/QUOTE
> But this is just the point! down the line, the waters will be so muddied, that neuro issues will become the norm in all snakes. Comes back to "THE" point in the Jag debate, apart from the obvious greed of some.....If you love reptiles......"WHY" would you buy, or condone inferior herps, for the pretty factor...


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 17, 2011)

Bump


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## Amazing Amazon (Dec 17, 2011)

I think it is unfortunate they we now have them in the country. I don't think they are good for the hobby here at all. In saying that they are here to stay so I think the important thing is everyone doing their part in the education of what this morph actually entails. Yes the big issue is what has been previous stated as our lines all getting muddled. Maybe DSE / Wildlife Authorities need to look at the possibility of giving them their own species code. I know this would not fix the possible problem, but maybe it might help.
Paul


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## smithson (Dec 17, 2011)

I say no to jags


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## abnrmal91 (Dec 18, 2011)

Bump


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

A very big yes from me, I particularly like the new XF.


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## spotlight (Dec 18, 2011)

we live in a country that is full of amazing looking carpet pythons but still we have the need to smuggle in another ? and a unhealthy one at that!, i really dont understand this and im glad im in the against group of keepers and breeders because i can only see a unhappy ending for all Morelia in Australia.
it will not be long and pet shops will be selling the non jag siblings from jag breeders and from there who knows what will happen.


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

What's not to love ?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 18, 2011)

I've been trying to get my hands on a Jungle Jaguar but there is some sort hiccup with my recreational licence. I'm not giving up hope though.


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## rockett85 (Dec 18, 2011)

I started a similar thread a few days ago and it got very messy. I love jags i think they are amazing i have 1 and another on its way my current male does show signs of neuro but very very slightly (very occasional head shake) but i dont believe that it has an impact on its life (but who am i to say that i am not the snake). People just have to be honest in this hobby especially when it comes to the sibs there is a place for jags here in the Australian hobby but not for the dishonest people that try and pass them off as something they are not. Like it or not they are here to stay and unfortunately it is those dishonest people that ruin it for so many.


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

Unfortunately there are lots of dishonest people in this hobby, the arrival of Jags hasn't increased or decreased their numbers.


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## CodeRed (Dec 18, 2011)

boa said:


> Unfortunately there are lots of dishonest people in this hobby, the arrival of Jags hasn't increased or decreased their numbers.



its made a few richer


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## emmabee (Dec 18, 2011)

whats this about a sp code? is this saying what they are i.e Jungle/diamond/bredli ect? if so YES they should as a lotare made up of different sp. 
would this help you sib prolem over there? not sure how you work and would like to learn more as im a bit of an aussie python geek (sorrrry!)



boa said:


> What's not to love ?




what boa! a red Jag......you breeding bredli jags????


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 18, 2011)

Sp code is just something we have to put in our books, when complying with our license conditions.....In theory it should cross reference, to prove the reps validity.............red tape!


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## Retic (Dec 18, 2011)

Unfortunately yes just red tape, it doesn't actually mean anything as you could put them in your books as any sp you like.


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## Crystal..Discus (Dec 18, 2011)

Big no from me.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 18, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> I've been trying to get my hands on a Jungle Jaguar but there is some sort hiccup with my recreational licence. I'm not giving up hope though.
> 
> 
> View attachment 230418



Damnnnn Is that an Olive jag ? How did you manage to catch it !!


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## longqi (Dec 18, 2011)

Emmabee
If you look through threads here such as the Jungle thread, you will see purebred snakes that overseas buyers would kill to get their hands on
Some of them equal or surpass the best jags ever created and they lines are improving every year in every species
Now though, whenever a new line of morelia appears, the first question asked is, does it have Jag?
The question is very relevant particularly in Australia
Regardless of the degree ALL Jags have neurological problems to greater or lesser extent
All Jag eggs will have a mixture of normal and Jag 
Exactly what happens with the offspring is a potentially huge problem because if an unsuspecting buyer introduces Jag into a previously pure line that line is permanently 'corrupted' in the eyes of many
Even an unsubstantiated rumour that Jag is in a line could have a very negative effect on future sales

That is the reason why there is so much active and sometimes heated discussion over Jags here


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## ramzee86 (Dec 18, 2011)

Since there been like 89 Jag threads in the last 3 days i thought i would just post a pic here instead of making a new thread

I JUST GOT A JAG  lol


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## Cockney_Red (Dec 18, 2011)

To me, it shows that over half the community on this site put bling above health of the animals, and the security of future Oz lines...............read this thread in 10 years!


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## Darlyn (Dec 18, 2011)

At the end of the day the governing bodies are hardly going to say
"Well these are illegal, everyone hand them in" so it's a moot point.
They are here to stay.


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## cement (Dec 18, 2011)

Yes it is a sad fact that they are here to stay.

For Emmabee... Why is it that you have such a craving for pure morelia? Is it because they are hard to get overseas?

I don't crossbreed subspecies and never will, all my snakes are locality specific except for the Nor westerns. I have no intention of buying into the jag scene at all, but I do truly sympathize for the breeders who have been working for years on lines of reduced pattern that have now had this scene thrust upon them. In a year or two there will be pure RP lines that aren't jag in Aust, they have come from hard work and as a necessity to fill a void of pretty snakes. But now all reduced pattern will be looked at with a mistrusting eye, as pedigreeing is non-existant, and now will never get off the ground.
The jags were brought in by a dodgy, unscrupulous person/s who only wanted the big bucks and f..... everyone else who was honestly working away. The window for the jags is closing as pure lines meet the need for reduced pattern, but now there is the unknown factor, and that sucks.

It makes it hard for people who want pure RP morelia and are against the thought of breeding retarded mutants. Some people actually do care about breeding animals with a known genetic defective nervous system, enough to not want to be involved, and definatly not own one.

Also the reason your jag sibs sell well overseas is probably because you have a shortage of good aussie snakes, that isn't the case here.


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## Smithers (Dec 18, 2011)

Well if Jags and the Neuro scare you,..you could always go the Jag Antaresia. Just the other day on facebook I saw for the first time a x bred Childrens/Maccie......... I'd like an Albino WheatBelt.


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## toximac (Dec 18, 2011)

Love jags, hope I can breed them when I get my new tanks up and running.


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## D3pro (Dec 18, 2011)




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## jinjajoe (Dec 18, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> To me, it shows that over half the community on this site put bling above health of the animals, and the security of future Oz lines...............read this thread in 10 years!



in 10 years there will still be pure lines but they will have been line bred to look like Jags however.........


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## kenny1 (Dec 19, 2011)

check out what the yanks are doing with aussie pythons, I have been watching for a while now and am finding its just starting to take off over here.
We are about 10yrs or more behind, but the trends are almost identical, and if followed carefully there are some hot looking snakes with big $$$ to be made!
There will always be the untouched originals for the die hards, but why not play around a bit and enjoy the huge variety of morphs that will be in the near future...we cant stop it so sit back and enjoy


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## longqi (Dec 19, 2011)

kenny1 said:


> check out what the yanks are doing with aussie pythons, I have been watching for a while now and am finding its just starting to take off over here.
> We are about 10yrs or more behind, but the trends are almost identical, and if followed carefully there are some hot looking snakes with big $$$ to be made!
> There will always be the untouched originals for the die hards, but why not play around a bit and enjoy the huge variety of morphs that will be in the near future...we cant stop it so sit back and enjoy



We are only behind the international community with Jags
Most international breeders would give up their first born sons for some of the Jungles etc that are being bred here
Compare any snake you can find on the jungle thread to the best pure jungle you can find overseas
There is simply no comparison
Show any yank or european breeder some of our top snakes and they nearly burst into tears
We are far ahead of them with pure lines of most species 

Until of course you throw a bit of head wobble into the picture


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## emmabee (Dec 19, 2011)

@ cement, yes pure are really hard to get hold of here. not so much your coastals, bredlis and jungles but your locale sp., darwins and inlands then yes they are.

again its also about buying off trusted breeders over here. id rather pay a bit more for an animals whos what im told it is. there are only a few breeders here id buy off due to this reason.
its funny but over here Jag sibs sell for more than a pure coastal!

i can get hold of the majority of animals i want (only one i can only dream of!) so we are spoilt here a bit, its the price of them thats the problem meaning i can only add the pures at a slow rate!
still cant get a female olive python though!

@longgii as you know we have a massive problem with cross bred boas over here as well as the carpets. there are always loads of "what am i" threads on that other UK site! im even going as far as to have my hog islands DNA tested before i breed them so i can see how muddied their bloodlines are.
in the UK Jags are always going to be big but there seems more people line breeding and the RP bredli line is really interesting.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 19, 2011)

emmabee said:


> @ cement, yes pure are really hard to get hold of here. not so much your coastals, bredlis and jungles but your locale sp., darwins and inlands then yes they are.
> 
> I would imagine that with the locale specific side of things in regards to the desirability of Australian pythons to keepers overseas would not be a significant factor over simply obtaining a pure bred specimen. I would think that the locale specific component would mean a lot more to people who have visited some of the places and seen firsthand many of our reptiles that have a bit of area specific uniqueness about them. It certainly made a huge difference to my attitude, that’s for sure. Perhaps in some small way, this is in part why the Jags don't really mean a lot to me.


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## Retic (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi Emma, good to see you posting on here  I would disagree to an extent on the availability of pure morelia in the UK, I have seen most forms available quite readily and now even Darwins and Inlands but yes more specific locales are obviously harder. Again there seems to be this misconception that everything available overseas is mixed up and crossed to death, this obviously isn't the case as there are many purists in other countries as well. The thing is that even here if a seller tells you a Jungle is from Tully or Mission Beach or wherever we have to take their word for it as they don't have distinguishing marks that make them unique to that area. 
As you say you are able to get practically any animal in the world so you are extremely lucky. So what is the one you can only dream of ?  
I will ask around about a female Olive if you like. 



emmabee said:


> @ cement, yes pure are really hard to get hold of here. not so much your coastals, bredlis and jungles but your locale sp., darwins and inlands then yes they are.
> 
> again its also about buying off trusted breeders over here. id rather pay a bit more for an animals whos what im told it is. there are only a few breeders here id buy off due to this reason.
> its funny but over here Jag sibs sell for more than a pure coastal!
> ...


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## cement (Dec 19, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> emmabee said:
> 
> 
> > @ cement, yes pure are really hard to get hold of here. not so much your coastals, bredlis and jungles but your locale sp., darwins and inlands then yes they are.
> ...


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 19, 2011)

Cement 
As an ignorant Kiwi who came out here in 1982 I saw my first live snake at Taronga zoo, a green Python. I was absolutely blown away by its beauty and instantly had a huge desire to own one. Back then it wouldn’t have mattered where it came from, if it was cross bred or whatever. Those factors never entered my head, I was simply hooked on the general beauty of snakes .29 years of further experience reading, catching, keeping and exploring many parts of Australias great wonderland has instilled a great proudness ( even though I am a Kiwi) and appreciation of this country’s great herpetofauna. Afterall, how could it not. Perhaps being a Kiwi simply meant it was less likely that I could take this country wildlife for granted seeing it for the first time. For the same reason I suppose I never had any desire to keep exotics, as to me Australia native reptiles were exotics to me ( no snakes in NZ). I sometimes hear people say that Pygmy pythons are just an ugly Childrens python. After spending heaps of time in their natural habitat, I see it different, a unique beautiful little python and wouldn’t want to see it any other way. The concept of hybrids and Jags with defects just seems so twisted to me. But each too their own I suppose.


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## cement (Dec 20, 2011)

I was deer hunting in New Zealand a couple of years ago and fell in love with the country there too. The place we were hunting was a hard two day tramp from the road if you knew where you were going. We were fortunate to have been flown in for 6 days by the head ranger as goodwill for build him a roof over his deck at home, I found a live kiwi burrow, a significant find, considering the lack of wild kiwi now. The river kept us in trout, and the venison was quite allright too. But the bush, or should I say very old growth rainforest (never logged), just blew me away.Incredible place that recharged the batteries like nothing else. I know what you mean mate.


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## Australis (Dec 20, 2011)

Beautiful country cement.. before reading your post i hoped it was a local haunt... one day.


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## Seraph (Dec 20, 2011)

Hay sorry if this question is a little silly but what exactly defines a jag. Ive seen jungle jags n they are beautiful but how do they come about.


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## Renenet (Dec 21, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> I sometimes hear people say that Pygmy pythons are just an ugly Childrens python.



Ugly!? Who says that? They're beautiful little snakes.


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## BigWillieStyles (Dec 21, 2011)

I really think the pure lines of Black and Gold Jungles have so much more going for them and wont muck with our already limited gene pool.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 21, 2011)

Very interesting results so far...


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