# Rats



## symbol (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi all

Question, does anyone find breeding rats is not quite as easy or successful as mice? Are they slower breeders or what? Not having huge success with rats. I have one breeding paid for say 6 months and they have only had I think two successful litters. Is that normal? I just have a male and female in there. Tried the trio and no luck. Just all seems very slow.
Mice on the other hand.....no dramas at all.

My breeding rats had a litter the other day, and the litter was killed/eaten! Very frustrating.


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## glassless_mind (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't know that much about breeding rats, as I haven't tried it myself, but aparently too much protein in the diet can cause them to eat their litters. Maybe it would be worth reviewing what you're feeding them?


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## bredli-sli (Nov 7, 2010)

i had the same problem. get some new females.... any female that doesnt look after her babies, or eats them, gets namend lunch.
try bigger tubs maybe? i had mine in smallish tubs, changed them over and they were fine?
food can have an impact on eating their babies to....


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 7, 2010)

i have 20 breeding females and 7 males and i average 200-250 pinkies every 3 weeks, and have never lost a full litter to cannibalization, only the odd one here or there. I started with 5 females and 2 males and have bred my breeding stock from them, but i plan to introduce some new blood lines soon. I do find that i get some females that are better producers than others so i tend to cull the slower/older breeders to try to keep the numbers up


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## symbol (Nov 7, 2010)

Yeah maybe I need to start again with the females. The male appears to look after the pups quite nicely. I try to give them a mix of pellets and vegies scraps etc....

I have them in the large tubs from the herp shop.

I would appreciate any one elses thoughts.


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## bredli-sli (Nov 7, 2010)

i think them ones are to small, i like to keep them in uncruel tubs, so they can move ect, but thats just me.
tiger coastal was that all in one big tub? 20;7 ratio?


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## symbol (Nov 7, 2010)

I suspect that all of his rats would not be in one big tub! It would have to be a bloody big tub! TC, what size tubs do you keep them in?
Also, once the mother has had the pups, do you remove the male? Id be interested in a couple of pics of your set up?


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## JAS101 (Nov 7, 2010)

symbol said:


> Yeah maybe I need to start again with the females. The male appears to look after the pups quite nicely. I try to give them a mix of pellets and vegies scraps etc....
> 
> I have them in the large tubs from the herp shop.
> 
> I would appreciate any one elses thoughts.


 what type and brand of pellets are u feeding them ?
i have only ever had one litter geting eatern due to the wrong pellet being used . 
i have a 1:2 ratio [ one male , 2 female] per tub . as soon as i see the females geting fat i transfer them to a diffrent tub . atm i have 20 females [ 14 of them are breeding ] and the other 6 are future breeders .
i use 52lt tubs with a food basket and a generic water drinker [ the type that can go on any standard bottle - eg pepsi , coke , ect , ect]
also where about are u , and where are u keeping them ? in a shed - how hot or cold duz the shed get ? as theat can/will play a big part in them having liters.


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## JasonL (Nov 7, 2010)

I have been breeding my own rodents for a few years now and yes, rats can't be compaired to mice as far as breeding numbers go, my mice are dynamic breeders and the rats really only breed Ok for about 6 months then just stop, they require alot more work where as mice require none, I have the same line of mice that I started with 5 odd years back and they are going as strong as they day I started..


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## nico77 (Nov 7, 2010)

I would also be intrested in seeing some pics of the way you guys set up your tubs , I have 2 big grey trawler tubs and have just cut some mesh lids now i am going to see what else i need for them and whats a good way to set up the rest of the tub . 
I also have a empty 5 foot fish tank and was thinking about putting the pregnant females in there and leaving the males in the tubs ( 1 in each ) . Would a 5 foot fish tank be big enough for 6 females to have there young in ?

cheers nico


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## symbol (Nov 7, 2010)

i think its YS stock feeds (which I haven't been happen with this time, too crumbly). I keep them in the large herp shop rodent tub (L)520mm x (W)360mm x (H)210mm. Is that big enough for two-three rats? They are kept in my garage which is not normally too hot or two cold (not in a tin shed)
Some photos of your setups would be good


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## Bez84 (Nov 7, 2010)

I find that my rats breed faster then the mice, i have 60l black recycle tubs with mesh lids and keep one male to 3-4 females and am over flowing with rats.
I have a 4 foot fish tank with a mesh lid that i use as a growing out tank.
Food i use is true blue dogfood from my local produce place, 20kg for $22.50 and a compress bale of woodshavings is $14 been using that combination for years with great success.


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## cris (Nov 7, 2010)

JasonL said:


> I have been breeding my own rodents for a few years now and yes, rats can't be compaired to mice as far as breeding numbers go, my mice are dynamic breeders and the rats really only breed Ok for about 6 months then just stop, they require alot more work where as mice require none, I have the same line of mice that I started with 5 odd years back and they are going as strong as they day I started..


 
My experience has been the opposite, although i think i usually get very poor quality mice and it sounds like you have got poor quality rats. I dont like mice and only keep them around this time of year for small hatchies. If you keep rats(even 100's of them) in a single large cage or avairy they take very little work to look after and thrive and generally toilet train themselves. If you stick them in tubs like most people do they stink after a day without cleaning and take heaps of work to look after IMO.

If rats are constantly breeding and raising full litters they will burn out pretty quick, you can avoid this by taking some of the pinkies away, giving breaks between breeding or just culling them once they stop producing well.


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## benjaffa (Nov 7, 2010)

I have 5 female and five males one pair never even gets preg but the rest are good and provide constant litters don't give them too much fresh veges that are watery like lettuce as this can give them the runs.I leave the males in with the pups and don't have problems sometimes the males help out


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 7, 2010)

bredli-sli said:


> i think them ones are to small, i like to keep them in uncruel tubs, so they can move ect, but thats just me.
> tiger coastal was that all in one big tub? 20;7 ratio?


 

Hell NO!!!! thats spread across 10 tubs, 2 females a tub and males rotate.

Have included pics of the First rack i built now have another 4 exactly the same and then grow out tubs are 100l tubs that are 200mm high

I keep my rats in out external laundry which we dont use, gets down to about 3-4 degrees in winter and they still produce decent numbers. I cull every second litter as pinkies to give the females a little break but doing it this way you still only get 6 months of good numbers before they burn out.


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 7, 2010)

symbol said:


> I suspect that all of his rats would not be in one big tub! It would have to be a bloody big tub! TC, what size tubs do you keep them in?
> Also, once the mother has had the pups, do you remove the male? Id be interested in a couple of pics of your set up?



It depends on if i need the male elsewhere  but i find that the males do help alot in rearing the pups


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## symbol (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks for sharing the picture. What do you feed them? In essence my are kept quite similar. Perhaps I should put them to nigh nighs and start again!


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 7, 2010)

my rats have a hopper of cummins rat pellets constantly and get fed fresh fruit and veg every second day, i use shredded news paper as bedding and have some large cardboard tubes (100mm diam.) that the rats can use as nests but i find that they prefer to pile up the newspaper. Where abouts are you located? There are alot of people on here that breed their own rats that might be able to help you out with some from good breeding stock.


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## JAS101 (Nov 7, 2010)

i just have a wire basket as a food hopper , and heres some of my tubs .
i have an old cast iron bath tub as a big growout tub .


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## hazza (Nov 7, 2010)

how old do the rats have to be to breed???


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## symbol (Nov 7, 2010)

I am in Sydneys west, any thoughts?


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 7, 2010)

hazza said:


> how old do the rats have to be to breed???



You were answered in the other thread hazza, they can breed at 5 weeks old but your better off letting them mature a little more before you try to breed them.

symbol not sure but you could post a wanted to buy add on here or look in the for sale threads on the australian rat forum, Australian Rat Forum - Index


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## hazza (Nov 7, 2010)

i thought i did?? but i thought i posted it in this one but it didn't work,,, sorry snd thank you


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## hazza (Nov 7, 2010)

if you wanted to rear your own from when thieir baby's i have heard you can give them soy milk?? if you have any other suggestions please do??)


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## Wild~Touch (Nov 7, 2010)

If rats are kept in a dark environment they may not breed as well.

They produce really well in longer daylight hours....artificial or natural, (somewhat like chooks, ie,longer daylight hours means more eggs)

and they like lots of nesting material, shredded newspaper, etc.


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## JasonL (Nov 8, 2010)

cris said:


> If rats are constantly breeding and raising full litters they will burn out pretty quick, you can avoid this by taking some of the pinkies away, giving breaks between breeding or just culling them once they stop producing well.


 
yeah Cris, but that sounds like work lol, I have had numerous different lines of rats over the years and had them pumping out in large numbers at times, but they stop and start and stop all together ect ect, the mice breed all year round in huge numbers and it's no prob, don't have to swap males ect or stuff around with their offspring, if one drops 20 babies, they all get raised no dramas..


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## giggle (Nov 8, 2010)

symbol said:


> i think its YS stock feeds (which I haven't been happen with this time, too crumbly). I keep them in the large herp shop rodent tub (L)520mm x (W)360mm x (H)210mm. Is that big enough for two-three rats? They are kept in my garage which is not normally too hot or two cold (not in a tin shed)
> Some photos of your setups would be good



your tub is too small. 

Mice are a bit less intelligent than rats... a plain old tub and each other is all they really need.
rats are highly intelligent animals, comparable to a dog. Imagine how insane a dog would go kept in one small dark room all its life. Its easy to make a cheap tub out of those storage containers you get from cheapo stores... they are roomier and their nearly see-thru sides mean your rats get more light into their tub... buy the biggest you can store easily... cut a big hole in the top and replace with fly screen or small mesh wire... drill some holes in the sides for ventilation. Note the larger the tub you offer, the less often you need to clean it out.

Always make sure your tub is very clean. If they are on a substrate which is too smelly, they will become rather disturbed by this. Eating their babies is common when they are distressed. Gestation is 22-28 days, if you want to breed her continuously you can only expect one litter per month. Note breeding her continuously may stress her... resting periods are advised, even if its three litters on, one month off.

I suggest you try having a couple home made tubs with two or three females per tub and your boy can service both tubs  It may take a couple of months to get your rotation right. This way the females get some form of rest and will stay happier and healthier. BTW, some toys wont hinder your rats breeding ability and will certainly go a long way to making sure they dont eat their own young. I used to put one of those bell type cat balls in, they have fun moving them around and play fighting them. Also something to climb, as rats LOVE to climb. Most people dont care about this when doing up their tubs and rats have to stay unnaturally their entire lives on the ground. What ever you use make sure it is non-toxic plastic or ceramic and easy to clean, just take it out regularly to spray with hutch cleaner and put under the hose. Healthy rats mean healthy snakes


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## symbol (Nov 8, 2010)

Thank you very much for your frank advice. Although they are in the garage, its not PITCH DARK, but is probably too dark for the rats all year round. I will try what you have suggested.


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## JAS101 (Nov 8, 2010)

giggle do u have your own rat setup? id like to see some pics 
i wouldnt be drilling holes anywhere in plastic tubs , as u are most likely to crack the plastic . buy/get a small and cheap soldering iron and melt holes in the tub . as for puting holes in the sides of the tubs , unless u put mesh on the inside of the tub i wouldnt put holes on the sides as that just another place to try and chew through.


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## JAS101 (Nov 8, 2010)

symbol said:


> Thank you very much for your frank advice. Although they are in the garage, its not PITCH DARK, but is probably too dark for the rats all year round. I will try what you have suggested.


 mine are in a shed , i use energy saver lights on a timer .


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## giggle (Nov 8, 2010)

zoojas... not at this time I dont no 

The holes should be high up, high enough that they cant just sit there and chew on them. I have had rats in this set up before and never had a problem with them chewing through the holes. A soldering iron would work better but I have a drill and because I have patience and took it slow never had a cracking problem  The plastic on those containers are so thin you can use a sharp knife to put holes in the side if you like. To cut the top out I personally made a few holes in the top and with a sharp stanely knife cut the rest out. I used aluminium fly wire on the top. There are various methods you can use to place the water bottles.

Rats enjoy chewing... and require it to grind teeth down... if you are feeding anything on top of hard pellets you need to also put something in for them to chew. 

BTW if you give your rats a break, they wont need to force their own break causing you to lose production. If you have a rotation system and when one bunch are on break the other bunch are producing, you wont ever have a lack of production. If all your rats are going on break at once, you are overworking them. 
TBH it seems like work, but if you do it you end up with a healthy 'production line' with a steady flow of bubs, happy healthy rats and easier to manage system. You also want to make sure you handle the babies you are growing or otherwise keeping as if you dont, cleaning time will be a pain. Because the containers from cheapo stores are so cheap, you can afford to have extra to rotate through, so at cleaning time you put your substrate in the clean ones, put the rats straight into the clean enclosure and back in the rack and then you are free to clean up the old mess without stress to yourself or the rodents.

When I talk about these tubs I dont mean go out and buy the smallest... I mean buy one with considerable depth and be smart with its set up. I will post links to pics  unfortunately mine are long gone but I can certainly give a detailed step by step of my set up if needed/wanted.

DIY – Housing for Rats :: Metal Monkey Exotics the only thing with this persons design is that they have used a hole in the side for the water and the food cage is long and right in the middle. As someone else said, holes low down in rat height will get chewed. I personally preferred using their technique for the food cage... to make a similar triangle version using a part of the top cut out. similar to the design seen in your store bought rat tubs. The drink bottle then fits into that on one side and the food into the other. Man its a bit hard to explain... does it make sense?


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## The_Dreaded_Pets (Nov 9, 2010)

dun mind me im keeping tabs of this thread lol bout to start breeding myself


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 9, 2010)

i kind of liked the idea of the store bought rat tubs how you can put the food on top, but didnt like the idea of feeding the wild mice that we get, so i made some hang on baskets from half inch avery wire that sit flush with the lid of the tub to stop the rats getting into it


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## garthy (Nov 9, 2010)

I now breed mine in complete 10mm welded bird mesh baskets that are suspended above trays. It seems to be working a treat and is self cleaning (all I have to do is slide the tray out and empty it. They are breeding well and high success rate of rats reaching weaning.


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## deebo (Nov 9, 2010)

Garthy - do you have any pics of your setup? Are you making the baskets yourself?
Sounds like an efficient setup.

The key is to replace breeding stock often. Young rats are productive rats from what ive seen in my setup.

Cheers,
Dave


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## TigerCoastal (Nov 9, 2010)

garthy have you noticed any foot/leg problems since using this set up? I think i can remember reading somewhere that it can cause problems but i have considered something similar myself, even if for only half to 3/4 of the floor


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## cris (Nov 10, 2010)

TigerCoastal said:


> garthy have you noticed any foot/leg problems since using this set up? I think i can remember reading somewhere that it can cause problems but i have considered something similar myself, even if for only half to 3/4 of the floor


 
I think this is only a problem with thin wire mesh, if you use heavier mesh it seems to be fine. I really doubt many reptile keepers could care less about the well being of their rodents though. They are smart and intelligent so should be kept in tiny tubs like stupid pythons


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