# Feeding live...birds



## jessb (Jul 25, 2008)

I've heard all the arguments against feeding live mammals to snakes, but are there different regulations on feeding live birds? In terms of damaging your snake, I wouldn't imagine a quail or chick could do much damage (compared to a rat).

Are the reasons against it just humane ones?

NB I'm not planning to do it, just curious!


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

theres nothing against the law, when it comes to feeding live animals as feeders, the only issues as you mentioned are your animal getting damaged, and yes your right quails don't do much damage to your python.


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## Vixen (Jul 25, 2008)

Pking said:


> theres nothing against the law, when it comes to feeding live animals as feeders, the only issues as you mentioned are your animal getting damaged, and yes your right quails don't do much damage to your python.


 
Are you saying its not illegal?

I don't know about birds but feeding live mice and rats is definately against the law.


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## Colletts (Jul 25, 2008)

It is illegal in the state of Queesnland to feed ANY live animal to another.


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## Sdaji (Jul 25, 2008)

Feeding live birds to a snake which will accept dead ones is illegal.

What about fish? Lots of people feed live fish to their snakes.


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

pffft haha.. its illegal to feed live to your snake.whether people listen and care is another thing.Everyday these stupid topics come up and then wonder why people do feed live. every post is giving another person a reason to feed live.its not a matter of the quails hurting your snake . thats not the reason its illegal its illegal because its inhumane and not necessary! which is why there available frozen god dam it. the mods should just wipe these posts. theres to many, surely everyones sick of it


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

no its not

*43 Animals used to feed another animal​*It is an offence exemption for an offence for a person if—
(a) the act that constitutes the offence involves using an
animal (the​*food animal*) as live food for another animal
(the *fed animal*); and
(b) the food animal and the fed animal are both lawfully
kept by the person; and
(c) the fed animal will only eat the food animal if it is alive;
and
(d) feeding the food animal to the fed animal is essential for​
the fed animal’s survival.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/A/AnimalCaPrA01.pdf


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

lol sdaji..unfortunatly fish never get heard. I spose they may not be able to test whther its "inhumane" for fish as they do with rats and mice


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## jessb (Jul 25, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Feeding live birds to a snake which will accept dead ones is illegal.
> 
> What about fish? Lots of people feed live fish to their snakes.


 
Insects too! That's my point - does the distinction lie with mammals? Or vertebrates? Or what?


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

its not illegal as long as your animal won't accept dead food as sdaji said, there is obviously conditions to feeding live as listed in my previous post, there is also other clauses in the legislation which state basically it is illegal to knowing put your animal in harms way which does pose a problem when feeding live rodents which have nasty teeth


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## Dan19 (Jul 25, 2008)

Pking said:


> *43 Animals used to feed another animal*
> It is an offence exemption for an offence for a person if—
> ​(c) the fed animal will only eat the food animal if it is alive;
> and
> ...


 
You just answered your own post there, it is illegal to feed live, unless the python/snake is in a life threatening state, and will not eat dead.


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

yeh but pking people are talking about feeding live quail right? well your post just stated it is only to be fed live basically for the animals survival(incase it wont eat frozen).. the person was talking about it not being inhumane for the quails nor risky to the snake. she never said she had trouble feeding. she just thinks a quail wont suffer as much as a rat or mouse. nor will it hurt her snake which therefre becomes ILLEGAL as its not a necessary to feed live quail(well at least she never said that either)


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## Vixen (Jul 25, 2008)

Pking said:


> ​(c) the fed animal will only eat the food animal if it is alive;
> and
> (d) feeding the food animal to the fed animal is essential for​the fed animal’s survival.
> http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/A/AnimalCaPrA01.pdf


 
Er you just dug yourself a hole?

That means its only legal if the animal in question will not eat pre killed or frozen thawed.


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

spot on dan well done..


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## Colletts (Jul 25, 2008)

I was told by one of the largest native fish producers in the country that feeding a live vertabrate is against the law. Not insects. It makes me wonder though, in the code of practice for reptile husbandry it states how some snakes don't accept mice and live fish can be placed in their water bowl. So i don't know.


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

lol how I said it isn't illegal and it isn't it just has conditions


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## Forensick (Jul 25, 2008)

actually... linking this to the other thread, and the jamie oliver thing...

50% of all egg/food chickens breeed are wasted (males)
it would be awesome if a proportion of those were saved and used in a pet food trade like rats
they should essentially be free... as they are waste, and means less animals world wide are destroyed for food


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## Vixen (Jul 25, 2008)

Pking said:


> theres nothing against the law, when it comes to feeding live animals as feeders, the only issues as you mentioned are your animal getting damaged, and yes your right quails don't do much damage to your python.


 
Hm, seems to me your just blatantly saying its ok, where the conditions you mentioned?


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## Colletts (Jul 25, 2008)

Forensick said:


> actually... linking this to the other thread, and the jamie oliver thing...
> 
> 50% of all egg/food chickens breeed are wasted (males)
> it would be awesome if a proportion of those were saved and used in a pet food trade like rats
> they should essentially be free... as they are waste, and means less animals world wide are destroyed for food


I heard the male chickens are sold to pet meat places, wings, necks, mince etc.


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

seems to me pking needs to recheck hes references and come back to us when he realises what he said was wrong.like i said its the people like you that we have problems getting through too


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

you have a great point there forensik.. its just a matter of where do we start?


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## MAIA77 (Jul 25, 2008)

Umm, sidetracking from the main topic here but how many people have actually successfully fed their snakes a live fish sitting in a water bowl?


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

ah you guys seriously waste my time look at the legislation make your own minds up don't base it of jibberish you decide to make up.


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## Sdaji (Jul 25, 2008)

MAIA77 said:


> Umm, sidetracking from the main topic here but how many people have actually successfully fed their snakes a live fish sitting in a water bowl?



Many of us have, but it's mostly for snakes like Common Treesnakes, Keelbacks, and elapids, especially babies and small species.

Feeder fish are openly sold in pet shops, including in QLD, specifically to be fed live.


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## Colletts (Jul 25, 2008)

MAIA77 said:


> Umm, sidetracking from the main topic here but how many people have actually successfully fed their snakes a live fish sitting in a water bowl?


Green Tree snakes take them readily and fish are sometimes the only food source they will take in captivity.


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## itbites (Jul 25, 2008)

*I feed my 2 snakes goldfish in a bowl (live).. *


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## jessb (Jul 25, 2008)

Colletts said:


> I was told by one of the largest native fish producers in the country that feeding a live vertabrate is against the law. Not insects. It makes me wonder though, in the code of practice for reptile husbandry it states how some snakes don't accept mice and live fish can be placed in their water bowl. So i don't know.


 
That is my point - where does the definition lie? if you read my post properly, you would see that I'm not condoning or encouraging it, just curious as to what is acceptable , both morally and legally.

Forensick, on Jamie Oliver's show they explained that that is exactly what does happen to many of the culled chicks - they go to zoos to feed the pythons. It's probably not worth their while to sell to individual buyers tho. I might be making incorrect assumptions here, but I always thought that was where Pythoness's chicks came from...


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## MAIA77 (Jul 25, 2008)

Wow, that's amazing...sorry new to the hobby, did my research on MD's and nothing else but am here to learn!


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## Forensick (Jul 25, 2008)

jessb said:


> That is my point - where does the definition lie? if you read my post properly, you would see that I'm not condoning or encouraging it, just curious as to what is acceptable , both morally and legally.
> 
> Forensick, on Jamie Oliver's show they explained that that is exactly what does happen to many of the culled chicks - they go to zoos to feed the pythons. It's probably not worth their while to sell to individual buyers tho. I might be making incorrect assumptions here, but I always thought that was where Pythoness's chicks came from...



oh... cool... at least they arrent totally wasted


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

shnakey 
read the last thread we did on this and check you facts

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-herps/illegal-87397/page-3


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

ive read it pking and whats your point to it.. you ar ethe one that made the wrong post about it saying its not illegal, and then burrying yourself even more by putting the legislation on the page stating its illegal!


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

you cant prove a point when theres not facts to prove it. the point was made tat first you said its not illegal then you put a legislation up saying it is.. so what do you think it is?


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

its not illegal it doesn't state in the legislation or what i posted it is maybe I should have put more effort into my first post saying that its not illegal to feed live food if its necessary too and what other reason is there to feed live??


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

From Pking - theres nothing against the law, when it comes to feeding live animals as feeders, the only issues as you mentioned are your animal getting damaged, and yes your right quails don't do much damage to your python.

You did it again.. Yes it is illegal. UNless your snake will not eat pre killed or frozen.


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

hahahaha yea your right but its not completely illegal thats what i'm getting at


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

its alright pking dont worry. i wont fight with you over a legislation.. as long as you know(or think you know) whats legal and ILLEGAL thats fine. everyone to there own. but yeh next time better wording couldnt go a stray as it wasnt only me backing it


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

dont try turn it around lol.. you know where it started. the point is in the first place you said - From Pking - theres nothing against the law, when it comes to feeding live animals as feeders.
well ermmmmmm yes there is. but i think everyone knows what im getting at so we will shake on it hehe


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## Bax155 (Jul 25, 2008)

Ahh APS nothing's changed much here!!


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## Slytherin (Jul 25, 2008)

*Feeding live any live prey is CRUEL*

I do not think it *right* or neccessary to feed live animals to anything! :x No matter what the purpose put forward, it is still *cruel* and inhumane. That is why groups like the RSPCA exist. Before anyone starts going off at me, (and there will be some), at least prey animals stand a 'sporting' chance in the wild. I believe that people need to stop and think about the possible stress, injury the bird (or rodent could suffer)

Btw, I'm not having a go at anyone in particular.


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## Vixen (Jul 25, 2008)

Slytherin said:


> I do not think it *right* or neccessary to feed live animals to anything! :x No matter what the purpose put forward, it is still *cruel* and inhumane. That is why groups like the RSPCA exist. Before anyone starts going off at me, (and there will be some), at least prey animals stand a 'sporting' chance in the wild. I believe that people need to stop and think about the possible stress, injury the bird (or rodent could suffer)
> 
> Btw, I'm not having a go at anyone in particular.


 
Thats exactly right, I hate people that say its perfectly natural when its not. In the wild the prey has a chance of escape - IF it gets caught, hey its sad but thats life.

In a captive environment there is NO chance, which I see as very cruel.


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## mckellar007 (Jul 25, 2008)

the reason it is legal to feed live fish as aposed to mice, rats, quails, chicks, etc etc etc is because fish cant feel pain. or no research has been done to prove otherwise. i dont know this as fact. it is just info i have been told.


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## Fireflyshuffle (Jul 25, 2008)

ooo gee that will shake the room a bit


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## Jewly (Jul 25, 2008)

mckellar007 said:


> the reason it is legal to feed live fish as aposed to mice, rats, quails, chicks, etc etc etc is because fish cant feel pain. or no research has been done to prove otherwise. i dont know this as fact. it is just info i have been told.


 
OMG, you can't be serious? Of course fish feel pain....every living thing does.


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## Spikie wanna cricket (Jul 25, 2008)

it is against the law to feed live but let me just say that a chick or quail can do the same amount of damage they can hurt if they bite so i guess the snakes can still be injured as quails can kill each other


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## mckellar007 (Jul 25, 2008)

Jewly said:


> OMG, you can't be serious? Of course fish feel pain....every living thing does.


 
my bad, i was drawing on memories from one of my old threads on feeder fish. for some reason i missed the only post with hard evidence and research in it. i was drawing my info from the other posts in there (from memory). 

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/chit-chat/feeder-fish-78481


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## giganteus (Jul 25, 2008)

Just something overlooked on the danger side of things. As we all know keeping large pythons is pretty common in the states and alot of the keepers over there don't feel much for what they refer to as feeder animals. Chickens have been offerred to feed large pythons with the chickens attacking the snakes tongue resulting in damage to it. Snakes without tongues are generally difficult feeders. Getting back to the live food if the snake is a good feeder it will often smash the food giving it little chance to fight back but live chickens offered to fussy feeders and snakes that like to do some investigating with their tongue flicking first are at risk. The chickens apparently view the tongue as a worm or something edible and attack it. I would imagine it possible that quails might do the same. 

Personally I wish it was only ever done as a last resort for fussy feeders for the sake of both animals. Your better off not having nematodes, cestodes etc passed onto your snakes by feeding out live food but someone will always beg to differ. 

If anyone does have a fussy feeder and was to do it they are better off knowing the above and not leave the offered food item in there unattended.

Regards


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## inthegrass (Jul 25, 2008)

shnakey said:


> pffft haha.. its illegal to feed live to your snake.whether people listen and care is another thing.Everyday these stupid topics come up and then wonder why people do feed live. every post is giving another person a reason to feed live.its not a matter of the quails hurting your snake . thats not the reason its illegal its illegal because its inhumane and not necessary! which is why there available frozen god dam it. the mods should just wipe these posts. theres to many, surely everyones sick of it



i agree, i agree, i agree!


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## Dipcdame (Jul 25, 2008)

the law, as according to the RSPCA is that you should cause NO animal to suffer, nor and undue stress, killing of any animal should be done humanely, birds are part of the animal world.


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## Slytherin (Jul 25, 2008)

Agreed!!


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## Pythonking (Jul 25, 2008)

you guys deserve medals "Clap Clap Clap" I suppose I should reframe from having a few beers and innapropriately providing confusing information, but none the less you do gooders diserve a medal, Its officiallly time for me to hang up my advice gloves and go back to keeping my herps maybe you guys should think about doing it aswell..


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## Dipcdame (Jul 25, 2008)

Pking, we are NOT do-gooders, but rather, people who care, and don't want to see any animal suffer because of our own "whatever" needs to see another animal suffer, and it's fear while being hunted and crushed by another animal. It's not necessary, and the well being of our snakes, as well as the animals we feed them, is of the most importance. 
Why would ANYONE want to feed live when there is a hugely MUCH better alternative???? Unless they have a fetish about watching an animal panic and suffer while becoming food for another, or fight back and see our own animals hurt and injured.............. if for that reason, then they are no better than people who condone and subscribe to cock-fighting, or dog fighting!
It took years for me to get a snake, as much as I wanted one, I had NO intention of owning one while live animals were fed to them, it was only when I realised that only dead animals could be fed to them tha I actually got one. There should be no need for live feeding these days, knowing the rules, anyone breeding snakes should have the babies on dead feed anyway. End of subject.


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