# Continuation: Exporting Reptiles From Australia



## dpedwards08 (Mar 29, 2011)

There has to be a way to have reptiles legally exported from Australia because I know of a person here in the United States that has had reptiles exported from Australia and then imported into the United States within the last several years. I've seen pictures and video footage of at least one of his Inland Taipans, Coastal Taipans, and Tiger Snakes if he has more than what was featured in pictures and videos.

Why don't the Australian reptile keepers/breeders come together to make a change in the legislation governing the exportation of Australian reptiles? All they would need to do is get together as a group and meet with the Australian Government Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts and explain to them that there would be a tremendous profit to be earned by exporting captive bred and born reptiles all over the world. The United States would jump all over that opportunity and probably spend thousands if not millions of dollars on Australian reptiles. Reptile breeders could make a full time living by setting up reptile breeding and exporting facilities that specialize in a few different species of their specialization and over time there would be a large number of captive breeding operations that all bred different things all over Australia. That would make it fair to everybody with no monopoly since every one is breeding different species of their choice. Get together a portfolioto to present to the Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts and really come up with good reasons as to why it would be beneficial and positive to do this. ​


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

I dissagree with what you are saying. however we are so fair behind that, in NSW we aren't even officially allowed to breed reptiles commerically.


----------



## reptilife (Mar 29, 2011)

This has been discussed at length before.
Most appear to be of the view that such changes in legislation would lead to an increase in reptiles being removed from the environment, washed through our current licensing systems, then exported via the legal channels.
I am still on the fence with this one.....


----------



## Sock Puppet (Mar 29, 2011)

Unless those snakes were legally obtained via zoos, animal parks etc & all the red tape & beaurocracy that goes with it, then they have been illegally smuggled out of Australia. 

I believe the black market animal trade is the 3rd biggest illegal trade globally behind drugs & weapons (correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

Some Snakes have been legally exported but from what I believe there has been strict conditions against breeding/sale. I don't really see a need to legalize it in a lot of cases you guys are ahead of us in captive keeping of our own reptiles anyway.


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Some Snakes have been legally exported but from what I believe there has been strict conditions against breeding/sale. I don't really see a need to legalize it in a lot of cases you guys are ahead of us in captive keeping of our own reptiles anyway.


 
They haven't been exported via private means legally.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

No, I didn't say they had, nor did the OP say that the person he knows of was a private collector.


----------



## D3pro (Mar 29, 2011)

IMO why not? why can't we export and import? they do it for the bird trade and the fish trade? 
Eventually the reptile trade will demand recognition from the Australian government and things will change.


----------



## SamNabz (Mar 29, 2011)

D3pro said:


> IMO why not? why can't we export and import? they do it for the bird trade and the fish trade?
> Eventually the reptile trade will demand recognition from the Australian government and things will change.


 
You know I hate to say it D3, but for once you make a bit of sense


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

That we allow exotics and diseases into the country with reptiles, importation of reptiles will NEVER happen. Export may have a slight chance but I think Kevin Rudd would be prime minister again before it does.

Alot of our reptiles are already in danger from poaching and habitat loss, are we going to add one more death sentence due to further illegal poaching and legal exporting.


----------



## SamNabz (Mar 29, 2011)

Never say never gillsy


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

Nope, I'll happily say never on this one.

I think it would be taking a step backwards in customs and quarantine.


----------



## Waterrat (Mar 29, 2011)

Christ! That would send all the smugglers broke.


----------



## Ramsayi (Mar 29, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Nope, I'll happily say never on this one.



Yeah me too.It will NEVER happen.The OP should of started with "Once upon a time" and ended with "And they all lived happily ever after".


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

As far as I know escaped non native reptiles haven't had a recorded effect on any ecosystems in Australia, whilst fish and birds have.

It will never happen


----------



## Sock Puppet (Mar 29, 2011)

steve1 said:


> As far as I know escaped non native reptiles haven't had a recorded effect on any ecosystems in Australia.


Apart from the cane toad of course


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

steve1 said:


> As far as I know escaped non native reptiles haven't had a recorded effect on any ecosystems in Australia, whilst fish and birds have.
> 
> It will never happen



Because we've been lucky, look at chameleons in florida, burms in the evaglades, red eared sliders in most parts of the world. If we start allowing these animals in the same thing will happen. 

AHG's have caused some damage but luckily they tend to be around human dwellings. There are breeding populations of corns around sydney, but I don't think any study has been done to prove if they have any lasting damage.



Sock Puppet said:


> Apart from the cane toad of course



and AHG, Red Ear Sliders.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

yeah sorry that was a response to D3pro's question, why not?

I was using it as a reason not to allow importation.
I also don't think there is any neccessity for legalizingt export.

ahh yes the cane toad


----------



## Snakeluvver2 (Mar 29, 2011)

Ahhh. The old we can have exoitic birds and fish arugement...
I'd much rather ban exoitic fish and birds. 
That would be a step in the right direction in my view.


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

Jannico said:


> Ahhh. The old we can have exoitic birds and fish arugement...
> I'd much rather ban exoitic fish and birds.
> That would be a step in the right direction in my view.


 
They review species of risk every 6 months, there has been another doz fish added to the noxious list, however at $350 Millioin a year in trade (aquarium fish), that wont happen. Plus the jobs that would be lost which would snow ball that amount of money.


----------



## Snakeluvver2 (Mar 29, 2011)

> They review species of risk every 6 months, there has been another doz fish added to the noxious list, however at $350 Millioin a year in trade (aquarium fish), that wont happen. Plus the jobs that would be lost which would snow ball that amount of money.



Really 350 Million dollars? I didn't think it would be that much. Is that just exoitic fish? Or the Fish trade in general?


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

"Keeping aquarium or “ornamental” fish as pets in aquaria or garden ponds is becoming an increasingly popular pastime in NSW. Many hundreds of fish species, both native and exotic, are sold for this purpose by aquarium suppliers and it has been estimated that this industry is worth $350 million annually in Australia."

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/fisheries/pests-diseases/freshwater-pests/ornamental-fish


----------



## Waterrat (Mar 29, 2011)

Sock Puppet said:


> Apart from the cane toad of course


 
.... cane toad .... a reptile? Escaped?


----------



## Red-Ink (Mar 29, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> There has to be a way to have reptiles legally exported from Australia because I know of a person here in the United States that has had reptiles exported from Australia and then imported into the United States within the last several years. I've seen pictures and video footage of at least one of his Inland Taipans, Coastal Taipans, and Tiger Snakes if he has more than what was featured in pictures and videos.
> 
> Why don't the Australian reptile keepers/breeders come together to make a change in the legislation governing the exportation of Australian reptiles? All they would need to do is get together as a group and meet with the Australian Government Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts and explain to them that there would be a tremendous profit to be earned by exporting captive bred and born reptiles all over the world. The United States would jump all over that opportunity and probably spend thousands if not millions of dollars on Australian reptiles. Reptile breeders could make a full time living by setting up reptile breeding and exporting facilities that specialize in a few different species of their specialization and over time there would be a large number of captive breeding operations that all bred different things all over Australia. That would make it fair to everybody with no monopoly since every one is breeding different species of their choice. Get together a portfolioto to present to the Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts and *really come up with good reasons as to why it would be beneficial and positive to do this. *​


 
LOL mate your living in a dream world... positive for who, positive for our native wildlife or positive for the American pet trade????


----------



## REPTILIAN-KMAN (Mar 29, 2011)

Why would we want to export them to the US !!!

just about any Australian speices is available there already for sale ! 

the US and Europe have massive amounts of Australian Reptiles why would i want anymore headed your way !

when i hear friends in Germany talk about how many Ant childreni they have or a friend in England that they have coastals i like that can keep reptiles but feel disgusted about how that reptile or that reptiles ancestor was illegally brought into that country !

at the florida international reptile expo Australia green ( tree) pythons sell for less than they sell here ( $750.00 in the US seen for )


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

REPTILIAN-KMAN said:


> Why would we want to export them to the US !!!
> 
> just about any Australian speices is available there already for sale !
> 
> ...


 
Yeah but like a few years ago, we had with certain aquarium fish, they need new blood and they don't have pure strains anymore. 

Are they real Aus GTS, or are they eastern NG speices that share the same lines as Aussie ones as they just mark it as such.


----------



## Sock Puppet (Mar 29, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> .... cane toad .... a reptile? Escaped?


OK, a release (escaped or planned) of exotic herpetofauna. Splitting hairs, but how's that?


----------



## Waterrat (Mar 29, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Are they real Aus GTS, or are they eastern NG speices that share the same lines as Aussie ones as they just mark it as such.


 
I asked Rico Walder that question and apparently, there aren't any pure aussie greens there or at least he didn't know of any.


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

Oh cool, I thought the most recent study, indicated that the eastern pops where the same line as the Australia pops. But either way it's easy enough to get things out, I went to the US recently and they have no outbound customs. 

It was like getting on a domestic flight here, just walk straight up to the gate.


----------



## D3pro (Mar 29, 2011)

With that line of thought you shouldn't be able to keep any Australian reptile out of its locality perimeter.


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

Fair call but why add another layer to the mix, by bringing exotics you have the added risk of bringing in diseases we don't have. Which will happen.


----------



## baggins (Mar 29, 2011)

i think it would be the other way around - australians would be buying up all the bitchin' exotic reptiles from around the world. check out this awesome example of a leopard gecko... 


or perhaps a sulcata tortoise? 


australia is behind the times. i mean come on people, you import all varieties of exotic humans by the boat load, of which many do not assimilate and go on to become an environmental pain in the ahrse, yet you're all scared of bringing in exotic reptiles for the pet trade?? LOL.


----------



## maxPOWERS (Mar 29, 2011)

we wouldnt make that much money as u only need one successfully mating pair to breed. then why would they have to buy them from australia.
also non native animals are a no no in any country, they may pose a threat to native animals.
look at the burmese pythons for example in the everglades( dont burn me if i have gotten that wrong).


----------



## Dannyboi (Mar 29, 2011)

You got it right but the situation is no longer as bad there are some people saying that the burms are dying. I swear this kind of post has been done to death. Australia may be 'behind the times' but because of that we have no where near as many ecological issues.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

In comparrison to?


----------



## Dannyboi (Mar 29, 2011)

Hawaii. For one.


> The Hawaiian islands (and surrounding waters) are home to five species of amphibians and 28 species of reptiles - and of these only five species are indigenous.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

For all I know they only ever had 5 indigenous species. A higher number of introduced species does not necessarily mean the ecological impact is greater.
Considering we have one of, if not the highest extinction rate in the world at the moment, I'd say we have a problem.


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm thinking Guam, does it have any of the endemic species left ?


----------



## Dannyboi (Mar 29, 2011)

steve1 said:


> For all I know they only ever had 5 indigenous species. A higher number of introduced species does not necessarily mean the ecological impact is greater.


But all the introduced pest pets are killing the native bugs.


----------



## longqi (Mar 29, 2011)

Only regarding export
there was a study done a few years ago
It showed that if galahs and cockatoos were legally exported instead of being shot the minimum profit for the 
department was $35,000,000 per annum
This was more than their annual budget at that time


----------



## dangles (Mar 29, 2011)

the biggest issue with this will be quarantine, we are told to quarantine any new snake into our collection for at least 6 mths as some diseases can take this long to show symptoms. For any incoming snake this would mean sitting ata quarantine area for 6 months at least before being released for the purchaser. With new enclosure sizes looking at being implemented by deccw in nsw, Quarantine areas would have to ensure they had very large enclosures to house the possible influx of snakes not to mention feeding etc


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

dangles said:


> the biggest issue with this will be quarantine, we are told to quarantine any new snake into our collection for at least 6 mths as some diseases can take this long to show symptoms. For any incoming snake this would mean sitting ata quarantine area for 6 months at least before being released for the purchaser. With new enclosure sizes looking at being implemented by deccw in nsw, Quarantine areas would have to ensure they had very large enclosures to house the possible influx of snakes not to mention feeding etc


 
Yeah don't think that will happen now with the change in government... I think it will be scrapped.



longqi said:


> Only regarding export
> there was a study done a few years ago
> It showed that if galahs and cockatoos were legally exported instead of being shot the minimum profit for the
> department was $35,000,000 per annum
> This was more than their annual budget at that time



I'd rather them shot then be shipped up and sent over, can you imagine the stress on the bird.


----------



## dangles (Mar 29, 2011)

either way importing here legally would mean a stint in quarantine where they will need to house and feed at your cost. For most these costs would far outweigh the cost/effort to get one legally


----------



## D3pro (Mar 29, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Fair call but why add another layer to the mix, by bringing exotics you have the added risk of bringing in diseases we don't have. Which will happen.


 
All the diseases are already here, it will be a matter of buying from the right person like you would here.
Frankly I don't care much, I just feel that the government is playing favourites.

Why yes too fish, birds, cows, horses, cats, dogs, rats, etc. and no to reptiles and amphibians?


----------



## getarealdog (Mar 29, 2011)

dangles said:


> either way importing here legally would mean a stint in quarantine where they will need to house and feed at your cost. For most these costs would far outweigh the cost/effort to get one legally


Done it with parrots, they wanted the macaws etc & they paid for them & now they have fresh blood, there was a register (NERBS) for all the imports & then they stopped the shipments & then the gov. decided to stop the register-go figure that one out. Now don't know who has exotic birds & now who is to say they came from the "imports". Had a system then they canned it!


----------



## nathancl (Mar 29, 2011)

steve1 said:


> For all I know they only ever had 5 indigenous species. A higher number of introduced species does not necessarily mean the ecological impact is greater.
> Considering we have one of, if not the highest extinction rate in the world at the moment, I'd say we have a problem.



and most of these extinctions are a result of feral pests ie fox's and cats, aswell as habitat destruction. why add more potential predators into the mix?


----------



## Elapidae1 (Mar 29, 2011)

We shouldn't, I never said we should


----------



## junglepython2 (Mar 29, 2011)

D3pro said:


> All the diseases are already here,


 
How could you or anyone for that matter know that to be the true??


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

Toads are here, why try and stop them.


----------



## cleobhp (Mar 29, 2011)

Jannico said:


> Ahhh. The old we can have exoitic birds and fish arugement...
> I'd much rather ban exoitic fish and birds.
> That would be a step in the right direction in my view.


 
The gov are looking at banning 95% of fish imports, the aquarium industry is worth 400 million a year, and if it goes ahead then not only will ppl lose their jobs but shops will shut down, as with a lot of pet shops fish is their biggest sellers, not only fish only shops but a lot of shops that stock everything.


----------



## gillsy (Mar 29, 2011)

Yeah as I stated in the post after that one, $350 million a year, they wont ban all fish. They do a revaluation every 6 or so months in NSW, and add fish to the list.

But I don't think all fish will ever be band, there is too many jobs and existing industries at stake.


----------



## spongebob (Mar 29, 2011)

Gee you guys must be bored tonight. 4 pages in less than 7 hours on a really old chestnut!


----------



## cleobhp (Mar 29, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Yeah as I stated in the post after that one, $350 million a year, they wont ban all fish. They do a revaluation every 6 or so months in NSW, and add fish to the list.
> 
> But I don't think all fish will ever be band, there is too many jobs and existing industries at stake.


 
Umm think again mate, that's what they are looking at doing, I know a guy in NSW, who is representing us, ie the aquarium hobby and he has told us that is what they are trying to do, he actually got banned from attending these gov meetings because that is what they want to do and he is fighting them, on our behalf. I already know of importers who are ready to shut up shop and go back to their other jobs. The gov don't care how many jobs will be lost.


----------



## seanjbkorbett (Mar 29, 2011)

~ My signature speaks for itself!!!!..I have had these discussions so many times!!...I just dont know how they could justify banning ALL exotic reptiles for something a "amphibian" or "mammal" did..Last time i checked you can still buy exotic amphibians..such as a Axolotl..which would do just as much damage as a Panther Chameleon or leopard tortoise if ever escaped.....Non!...And even worse,Imagine If people started letting go their Oscars or Flower horns into our waterways..yet..we can still buy these fish...Cats,rats and some species of birds all have proof of destroying our environment...yet..we can still buy them.. ....The laws are a joke!..Government scam..If people want to keep native reptiles..they have to pay money to keep reptiles,regulary (i understand the permit system,but why do we have to PAY for our passion or for a permit) ...and if we want to keep exotics..then we have to pay the fine of 100 000 dollars or up to 15 years in prison..and there have been heaps of people fined over these years from this..but not ONE imprisonment..of coarse,u cant make money off someone going to prison...


----------



## baggins (Mar 30, 2011)

permits to keep reptiles is an absolute joke. 

no permit required to keep cats, dogs, birds, fish. or have children for that matter!

a leopard tortoise or sulcata tortoise could really wreak havoc on the environment. just imagine, an escaped tortoise eating the neighbour's dandelions. oh the horror!!


----------



## Sock Puppet (Mar 30, 2011)

baggins said:


> permits to keep reptiles is an absolute joke.
> no permit required to keep cats, dogs, birds, fish. or have children for that matter!


 
Actually in NSW there are far more native birds that require an animal keepers licence (AKL) than exempt species that require no licence

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/nature/CurrentSpeciesList.pdf



baggins said:


> just imagine, an escaped tortoise eating the neighbour's dandelions. oh the horror!!


My neighbours seem quite fond of their dandelion garden, they never seem to mow it anyway. A tortoise would get big & fat in that lot.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 1, 2011)

The particular specimens that I am referring to were not smuggled out of Australia and into the United States, which is often the case with most Australian reptiles that have ended up in collections around the world. There is a way to export legally, but only for non-commercial reasons. I have the permits and fees on file on my computer! Is there anyone here that was alive and keeping reptiles before Australia closed it's boarders to import/export back in the 1970's? Would it be possible that certain species were exported legally back in those years and continued on with breeding somewhere else in the world? It is true that there are a lot of Australian reptiles being produced here in large numbers, but what about tiger snakes, inland taipans, central ranges taipan, coastal taipans, eastern browns, western browns, red belly black snakes, collette's black snakes, and all of the other Australian elapids that many of us have wanted to keep in our collections? 

gillsy: What is there to disagree with? I simply made a suggestion, a new idea. You mentioned that you are not allowed to commercially breed reptles in NSW. That is why I suggested that groups of herpers get together to help change those laws. Here in the USA, we have a group called USARK. They just fought a python ban and won! 

reptillife: If you don't believe that reptiles are being taken from the wild in tremendous numbers in Australia right now by collectors, than you aren't being very realistic. Australia is the reptile mecca of the world. There are probably hundreds of foreigners that travel to Australia every year just to collect reptiles to smuggle them out. 

steve1: There isn't really a "need" in a true sense of the word. I was told several months ago by a local Australian herpetologist, that Australia is going through rough economic times, as is the case in the USA. The reptile trade alone could fix that! Ok not really, but it could certainly help. Any time a company makes their business international, it's usually because they are going to make more money and I believe that if you started breeding reptiles in captivity for commercial export than Australia as a nation would see prosperous times (not implying that you don't already). 

gillsy: Again, how would "EXPORTING" captive born reptiles have any negative effect on Australia's ecosystem, wild populations, quarantine, disease control, etc? Australia has nothing to lose by doing this. They have everything to gain. It's not "all" about money, but money has a lot to do with it. Serious profits could be made. It might put smugglers out of business or it might put them in business, but I can tell you one thing for sure...the smugglers will be there anyways!

Forget about importing exotics into Australia. Now let's go back to my original point which is EXPORT. As far as exporting is concerned with Australia's wildlife, it wouldn't do any damage. It's a simple equation. Breed snakes+Export snakes=money. This post has taken a huge twist from my original first post. (Yes I started this post). You got into a heated debate about exotic animals wreaking havoc on your wildlife like it's a new thing. That happens in every country in the world. You already have introduced species and animals are still coming in whether its legal or not. Why not legalize the commercial export of reptiles and start breeding reptiles to make money and export them?


----------



## gillsy (Apr 1, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> gillsy: What is there to disagree with? I simply made a suggestion, a new idea.You mentioned that you are not allowed to commercially breed reptles in NSW.That is why I suggested that groups of herpers get together to help changethose laws. Here in the USA, we have a group called USARK. They just fought apython ban and won!


Most of us don't want reptiles in pet shops, as it's just another way forprices to be so high it puts people off, plus the care that pet shops provide to animals is alot of the time pathetic. There is a push to remove all animalsfrom petshops, and just sell products.


dpedwards08 said:


> If you don't believe that reptiles are being taken from the wild in tremendousnumbers in Australia right now by collectors, than you aren't being veryrealistic. Australia is the reptile mecca of the world. There are probablyhundreds of foreigners that travel to Australia every year just to collectreptiles to smuggle them out.


So what you are saying is let them continue todo this, but allow legal export, so we’ll get every tom dick and harry trying to export poached animals legally.


dpedwards08 said:


> steve1: There isn't really a "need" in a true sense of the word. Iwas told several months ago by a local Australian herpetologist, that Australiais going through rough economic times, as is the case in the USA. The reptiletrade alone could fix that! Ok not really, but it could certainly help. Any timea company makes their business international, it's usually because they aregoing to make more money and I believe that if you started breeding reptiles incaptivity for commercial export than Australia as a nation would see prosperoustimes (not implying that you don't already).


We are not experiencing tough economic times, we are the only country that didn’t experience a recession during the GFC, have you looked at how strong our dollar is, it’s higher than yours. Exporting a few reptiles won’t touch the bottom line of our economy



dpedwards08 said:


> gillsy: Again, how would "EXPORTING" captive born reptiles haveany negative effect on Australia's ecosystem, wild populations, quarantine,disease control, etc? Australia has nothing to lose by doing this. They haveeverything to gain. It's not "all" about money, but money has a lotto do with it. Serious profits could be made. It might put smugglers out ofbusiness or it might put them in business, but I can tell you one thing forsure...the smugglers will be there anyways!


 
You don’t get it, you will have a few that are captive bred. But currently there are problems with wild caught animals in captivity, people going to poach animals and selling them in our domestic reptile market, the problem will be highly exacerbated because they will have another legal avenue of disposal, and a lot higher profit. 

Now on a final note, I would like the Americans to finally stop telling other countries what will be best for them. You have no idea how bad the poaching trade is already, our economy, our already endangered reptile populations. You guys kill 1000’s of rattle snakes a year,now that’s something to be proud of.


----------



## longqi (Apr 1, 2011)

Most people from overseas do not understand how finely balanced Australias ecology is
There are several localities where 4 fit guys could virtually wipe out a local species in three months

IF it could be guaranteed that only captive bred specimens were exported this could work
But that guarantee is impossible to enforce

One large reptile breeder in Indonesia cannot breed chondros for a fairly simple reason
I offered to redesign a few things for him
His reply was 'It is easier for us to just buy hatchlings from Papuan collectors and say we bred them"
All of those end up in europe
Exactly the same thing could happen in Australia


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 1, 2011)

Longqi, I don't think you can compare Indonesia to Australia as far as poaching goes. First of all, labor is not as cheap over hear and collectors would be demanding much more than they do for example on Biak Island. With the price of diesel (A$1.53- / litre), it IS cheaper to breed than collect from the wild. Secondly, the prices for most reptiles are much higher here than in Indonesia and the European trading would quickly come to a grinding hold if they had to pay our prices for reptiles. Basically, Indonesia is a cheap world and Australia is an expensive one. JMO

_But currently there are problems with wild caught animals in captivity, people going to poach animals and selling them in our domestic reptile market, [/FONT][/QUOTE]_

Really? Some poaching has been going on since primordial ooze and some will go on no matter what steps are being taken. But it's a drop in the ocean, I wouldn't say "currently there are problems".


----------



## gillsy (Apr 1, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Longqi, I don't think you can compare Indonesia to Australia as far as poaching goes. First of all, labor is not as cheap over hear and collectors would be demanding much more than they do for example on Biak Island. With the price of diesel (A$1.53- / litre), it IS cheaper to breed than collect from the wild. Secondly, the prices for most reptiles are much higher here than in Indonesia and the European trading would quickly come to a grinding hold if they had to pay our prices for reptiles. Basically, Indonesia is a cheap world and Australia is an expensive one. JMO
> 
> _But currently there are problems with wild caught animals in captivity, people going to poach animals and selling them in our domestic reptile market, [/FONT]_




Really? Some poaching has been going on since primordial ooze and some will go on no matter what steps are being taken. But it's a drop in the ocean, I wouldn't say "currently there are problems".[/QUOTE]

Yeah I disagree with the cost of collection, I've covered 4000km's in four days, and saw probably $20k worth of animals. The fuel and car higher cost $1000.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 1, 2011)

I think it would depend on the species, some species' wild population would be hit hard.. particularly the ones that are difficult to breed in captivity... Centrillian bluetounge and Shinglebacks fetch quite a high price over in the US centrals up to 10K and stumpies to 2k. Not that hard to find and quite abundant out there and not that easy or lack of breeders here.


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 1, 2011)

I think stumpies and blueys are pretty much poached all the time anyway what with them being exempt from permitting here it easy to say you bought it as you don't require any proof. 
If they sell for a lot in the states then I would imagine they would be poached at massive levels in SA.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 1, 2011)

gillsy said:


> Yeah I disagree with the cost of collection, I've covered 4000km's in four days, and saw probably $20k worth of animals. The fuel and car higher cost $1000.



I see where you coming from but that was you holiday travel (I assume). It's different collecting to order.


----------



## gillsy (Apr 1, 2011)

No these are just animals that would sell overseas, BHP's, Monitors (3/4 different types,) Woma's, Few different morelia. All the wanted stuff overseas.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 2, 2011)

Yesterday's topic of the day was "disease". Today's topic is "poaching". What will be tomorrow's topic of the day? It sounds like you are just making excuses to reject a new idea, an idea that could bring millions of dollars to Australia's economy. Let's pretend that Australia did open it's boarders to commercial reptile exportation, and EXPORTATION only. Let's also pretend that every single reptile in Australia was collected and exported. Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!


----------



## solar 17 (Apr 2, 2011)

one way around 99% of the problems of exporting and poaching for exporting would be to only allow the export of reptiles approx. 3-4 months of age, but before you jump down my throat l would have a "user/seller pays"
system where the breeder pays for a parks and wildlife inspection of their eggs then again as hatchies [with high quality digital photos] then an export ticket issued at three months after several feeds....no system would be perfect but this one would iron out a lot of the wrinkles.....solar 17 [Baden]


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 2, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> Yesterday's topic of the day was "disease". Today's topic is "poaching". What will be tomorrow's topic of the day? It sounds like you are just making excuses to reject a new idea, an idea that could bring millions of dollars to Australia's economy. Let's pretend that Australia did open it's boarders to commercial reptile exportation, and EXPORTATION only. Let's also pretend that every single reptile in Australia was collected and exported. Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!


 
Mate we are not making excuses.... as our values on our animals is more than the all mighty USD which is what you are using to pitch this idea to us (which after so many pages you are still using). We are discussing all possible negative effects of all out border opening. There are very few commercial breeders here in Australia so the fundamental attitude towards the animals is different. It is a hobby for us and only the passionate among us take it on. Our own government don't even like us keeping these creatures and merely tolerate it. As it is passion for us over $$$$ as none of us are commercial breeders but rather hobbyist the pitch of "millions" of dollars will fall on deaf ears. Why don't you tell us how it would be benificial for our animals rather than our pockets and we may listen a bit more carefully? We are not making money now on exporting and were fine with that, we don't really want to make money from reptile full time but merely enough to sustain our hobbies. Money for living is what jobs are for.


----------



## gillsy (Apr 2, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> Yesterday's topic of the day was "disease". Today's topic is "poaching". What will be tomorrow's topic of the day? It sounds like you are just making excuses to reject a new idea, an idea that could bring millions of dollars to Australia's economy. Let's pretend that Australia did open it's boarders to commercial reptile exportation, and EXPORTATION only. Let's also pretend that every single reptile in Australia was collected and exported. Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!


 

You don't get, we aren't some small country. The negible effect it will have on our economy is not worth the possible effect our our wildlife. We make more from our seafood than we would ever selling a few snakes and on top of that, around the world there are more people breeding our pythons than here in Australia. Dude we don't need to sell snakes to make good life for peoples familes. I get your exportation only but you don't get we don't want to. There is no tangible economic benefit. We get more economic benefit from foreigners coming over to see how reptiles.

You need to stop stating this economic benefit, it's a very very weak argument, american's breed more of our snakes that we do. Anyway i'm over another ignorant american who probably thinks the queen sits in Australia, and that the moon rises our of the ocean. 

We don't want it, it will never happen and frankly I think you need to research what our economy is really like. While your $ falls and ours reaches 25year highs. 

Australia Economy | Economy Watch


----------



## Octane (Apr 2, 2011)

To those who think that export would be an ongoing good money spinner for Australia. Think again once there are reasonable breeding numbers of desireable animals overseas why would there be a need to buy from Australia anymore?

The answer is there wouldn't be.
Refer to the quote from *dpedwards08*:-

"Now let's throw in a little bit of reality into the mix, the reality that Europeans and Americans bred these exported Australian reptiles in captivity in a rather large abundance and created a healthy economic flow throughout these countries that gave average hard working people the opportunity to make a decent living at something they love to do and were able to provide a good life for their families. Wow, what a concept!"

Above translated into Australian reality: 

When Europeans and Americans get captive breeding programs going of what they have obtained and are producing in numbers they will not need to import any more. They will be making the money not Australians. Wow what a concept.

Now take a deep breath and resign yourself to the fact that reptile breeding and export is not going to put anyone on the next BRW rich list. Concentrate on the job that puts food on your table and let your hobby be just that. 

Octane


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2011)

I had the opportunity to meet a few American big breeders, and I mean big, employing staff, etc.. They aren't that wealthy. Most of them are running side businesses with herp equipment, some grow expensive plants, etc., to make a decent living. Even Greg Maxwell made more money from his books than from his chondros ... and his were one of the best.
So, where is the huge river of money flowing?


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 2, 2011)

You say that because there are Australian reptiles being bred in America that Americans wouldn't buy reptiles from breeders in Australia or pay the prices of Australia if there was free trade there. I don't believe that is true. Take bushmasters for example. They are bred in America however people still import them. Ok we probably wouldnt import bearded dragons, but I can guarantee you that people would make a beeline straight to Australia for a lot of other species. There are some really nice localities of otherwise common species that would be a reason to import from Australia. People will pay good money for quality reptiles, especially reptiles that they can only get in one place in the world. Another aspect is that just because something CAN be bought here, doesn't mean they necessarily mean they WANT to buy it here.


----------



## Snake_Whisperer (Apr 2, 2011)

gillsy said:


> You don't get, we aren't some small country. The negible effect it will have on our economy is not worth the possible effect our our wildlife. We make more from our seafood than we would ever selling a few snakes and on top of that, around the world there are more people breeding our pythons than here in Australia. Dude we don't need to sell snakes to make good life for peoples familes. I get your exportation only but you don't get we don't want to. There is no tangible economic benefit. We get more economic benefit from foreigners coming over to see how reptiles.
> 
> You need to stop stating this economic benefit, it's a very very weak argument, american's breed more of our snakes that we do. Anyway i'm over another ignorant american who probably thinks the queen sits in Australia, and that the moon rises our of the ocean.
> 
> ...


 
Who's this "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Awfully presumptuous of you to be foaming at the mouth about "us" not wanting to explore the possibility of exporting reptiles. I for one, and know others, who don't necessarily think it's such a bad idea. You keep arguing about importing disease etc, but this debate is about export. You can flail around all you want but creating a legal export system would provide a net gain to the economy (on whatever scale) in the form of bringing foreign money to Australia. Period. By the tone of the following:



> Anyway i'm over another ignorant american who probably thinks the queen sits in Australia, and that the moon rises our of the ocean.
> 
> We don't want it, it will never happen and frankly I think you need to research what our economy is really like. While your $ falls and ours reaches 25year highs.


 
It is quite easy to infer that you "hate 'mericans", of course you are free to hate whomever you like, but it is a flimsy platform from which to spew your opinion. Believe it or not, you do not speak for the herp community.

Would exporting captive bred reptiles to overseas collectors make anyone a "millioner", probably not, but maybe. You never know. Is there potential there for some enterprising herpers to make a quid out of selling quality, locality specific animals to foreign collectors who will snap them up like hot cakes? You can bet your sweet *** there is! Moronic rhetoric aside, I for one believe there is merit to exploring the possibility of opening up the hobby to exportation, even if only to help find homes for the thousands of "unwanted reptiles that the big name breeders didn't want everyone breeding".


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2011)

There is a lot of merit in what you're saying. If reptiles were allowed to be exported, it would have to be strictly controlled, even more so as we are being controlled now and only a few "selected and licenced" individuals or businesses would have the privileged to export. There is NO WAY the government would let every Dick & Harry to export. Can you imagine the politics this would create?


----------



## Sock Puppet (Apr 2, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> If reptiles were allowed to be exported, it would have to be strictly controlled, even more so as we are being controlled now


Exporting would also raise the issue of which governing body would be in charge of controlling licencing/records or whatever else would be involved to undertake such an exercise. 

Currently each Australian State & Territory's rules & regulations are different state to state, depending on the requirements set out by that state's governing body. 

Export would have to be controlled by a federal body, or if not, each state dept would have to agree on national standards, regulations, processes etc. for a standardised & streamlined system.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2011)

Sock Puppet said:


> each state dept would have to agree on national standards, regulations, processes etc. for a standardised & streamlined system.



Slightly off the subject but - this will happen anyway.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 2, 2011)

Why would exporting have to be strict and severely regulated? Why can't it be open to free trade when it comes to exporting live captive born reptiles? Costa Rica is up there in strictness when it comes to exporting reptiles, but I can think of two people, right now, off the top of my head that can export Bushmasters which aren't the most common of all animals, and I don't think there are any limits for captive born reptiles being exporting out of Costa Rica. I understand your argument about people going out and collecting wild caught specimens and then legally exporting them, but come on! Let's get real! Do you honestly think it would make THAT big of a change in Australian ecosystems? What's to say that certain areas of Australia are over populated with certain species that there are no natural predators for. I've heard of record catches of Tiger Snakes over populated in certain areas. What's the problem with controlling some of the over populated species? Or is Australia absolutely 100% perfect with no over-population problems or inbalance in natural ecosystems with no introduced exotic or invasive species? GIVE ME A BREAK! The amount of money in permits alone from eager reptile exporters would yield high financial rewards for the government. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should be allowed to export reptiles if they so choose. Why shouldn't they? If they pay for a permit to do it, than have at it. 

Gillsy, you said that alot of your Australian reptiles are already in danger from poaching and habitat loss. What makes you think that your scenario is any different than the rest of the world's? As far as legends, such as Steve Irwin, are concerned almost all animals in all countries are in danger from poaching and habitat loss. That's why we have CITES and other organizations. That is one reason why we look after these animals in captivity and try to breed them. There might come a time in this world where all the wild habitat is damaged. What happens then? Do we just accept the loss? I believe captive breeding is going to save many species from threat, endangerment, and/or extinction. It already has saved some species. Zoological programs are not the only anwer. It wasn't until the 1960's or so that American Zoos started captive breeding and trying to do well by reptiles. Before then they relied on smugglers to bring them new specimens and an animal that died was no big deal. It could be replaced by the next smuggler that came in with his catch. 

As far as the legalities of exporting from Australia for non-commercial purposes, where does it say that you have to be a ZOO? None of the research that I have done has said anything about a ZOO. 

To all: nowhere in my original post did I say anything about importing reptiles into Australia so I don't know why that took such a drastic turn towards the introduction of disease and the fall of customs and quarantine. 

Invasive Species/Escaped Exotic Species: They blame Burmese Pythons for damaging certain species of rodents that are native to the Everglades. This seems to be a huge topic that people often like to bring up. There is a little bar/pub along the highway to the Everglades that has a huge colony of feral cats there. They did some studies on these cats to see why the wild native populations of rodents were decreasing so drastically. They thought it was the fault of the Burmese Pythons but in fact it was the cats that took their toll. And who's to say that Burmese Pythons haven't helped control other invasive exotic species that have been introduced before them such as nutria (large rodent from S.A.)? My point being that what is commonly believed by all these "eco-experts" out there isn't always true. The cane toad isn't a reptile by the way. It's an amphibian. Chameleons in FL? Are you kidding me? "Watch out folks, the killer chameleons are on the prowl". What wild populations are they going to destroy, crickets and roaches? 

If there is already a $350 million business in fish, than just imagine what the reptile trade would bring! 

Reptilian K-Man: fortunately which reptiles YOU want to be exported out of Australia really doesn't matter because on the grand scheme of things, you are just one person with one opinion. The world doesn't revolve around you. And you are wrong, there are several species and localities of Australian reptiles that are unavailable to hobbyists, collectors, and breeders or just way too expensive here which means that the doors would open to the Australian exporters. 

"we wouldnt make that much money as u only need one successfully mating pair to breed"??? One mating pair is going to supply the demand of the whole world? I think NOT!

"there was a study done a few years ago. It showed that if galahs and cockatoos were legally exported instead of being shot the minimum profit for the department was $35,000,000 per annum" Why can't the same happen for reptiles? Think of all the people that kill snakes. Reward for live snake-$50. It might slow down the instant death shovel in the garden or backyard pond! The stress on animals being shipped today with IATA regulations is far less than what it used to be, even for a journey from Australia to the US. Just think of the animals that are shipped to Australia for zoos and vice versa.


----------



## KaotikJezta (Apr 2, 2011)

Why do Americans have to have every one elses wildlife, then when they get it they crossbreed it and warp it out of recognition. How many cockatoos and galahs do you think would die of stress if taken from the wild and exported. Cockatoos mate for life so it would be very hard to get them to breed in the first place and it has been proven here that the main cause of beak and feather disease is stress, that's why they made the taking of baby cockatoos from the wild illegal in the first place. I have seen big exporting websites where the minimum order for reptiles is in the hundreds, what all crammed together in tiny crates with no consideration for their well-being or the fact that the native environment they come from is being raped and pillaged to satisfy the US need to own a piece of everything. Sure there are exotics I would love to own, but I would prefer to not own them over taking them from their natural environments and subjecting them to the stress of importation. Maybe it would work if there were strict controls in place but there is always going to be the greed factor and the illegal taking of species and it will be all the easier if exports are legalized in a free trade situation. Also, what does free trade agreement with the US usually mean, they get all the benefits and the other country gets all the US imposed restrictions. As far as our economy goes, have you checked the price of the Australian dollar against the greenback lately, I think you should be worrying about your own economy before trying to help us out with ours.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 2, 2011)

My friend you just have no idea what you're talking about and please, don't tell us what we should, could do. Who do you think you are?



dpedwards08 said:


> Why would exporting have to be strict and severely regulated? Because everything to do with wildlife in Australia is and this would be no exception. Why can't it be open to free trade when it comes to exporting live captive born reptiles? Because most people (not all) don't want to. Can you respect that? Costa Rica is up there in strictness when it comes to exporting reptiles, but I can think of two people, right now, off the top of my head that can export Bushmasters which aren't the most common of all animals, and I don't think there are any limits for captive born reptiles being exporting out of Costa Rica. Well, good on Costa Rica - this is Australia. I understand your argument about people going out and collecting wild caught specimens and then legally exporting them, but come on! Let's get real! You get real! Do you honestly think it would make THAT big of a change in Australian ecosystems? What's to say that certain areas of Australia are over populated with certain species that there are no natural predators for. Which ones? You have no idea what you're talking about again. I've heard of record catches of Tiger Snakes over populated in certain areas. You have heard crap. Tigers have been in decline for 3 decades now. What's the problem with controlling some of the over populated species? ???? There are non! Or is Australia absolutely 100% perfect with no over-population problems or inbalance in natural ecosystems with no introduced exotic or invasive species? GIVE ME A BREAK! Do us all a favor and GIVE US A BREAK. The amount of money in permits alone from eager reptile exporters would yield high financial rewards for the government. Stuff the government, they do very little for us so ... Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should be allowed to export reptiles if they so choose. Why shouldn't they? If they pay for a permit to do it, than have at it. Christ! Would you like to become Australian PM?
> 
> Gillsy, you said that alot of your Australian reptiles are already in danger from poaching and habitat loss. What makes you think that your scenario is any different than the rest of the world's? Common sense would. As far as legends, such as Steve Irwin legend? Maybe in America., are concerned almost all animals in all countries are in danger from poaching and habitat loss. That's why we have CITES and other organizations. That is one reason why we look after these animals in captivity and try to breed them. There might come a time in this world where all the wild habitat is damaged. What happens then? Do we just accept the loss? I believe captive breeding is going to save many species from threat, endangerment, and/or extinction. It already has saved some species. Zoological programs are not the only anwer. It wasn't until the 1960's or so that American Zoos started captive breeding and trying to do well by reptiles. Before then they relied on smugglers to bring them new specimens and an animal that died was no big deal. It could be replaced by the next smuggler that came in with his catch.
> 
> ...



Keep your US$$$$$$$$ and your brilliant ideas. I find your post not only irrational and feeble minded but also quite irritating.


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 2, 2011)

The main thing is it someone on the outside looking in and saying "I want what they have" so he is trying to make an argument for us to do it for his benefit. Look there would be minimal trade with America with the economic struggle you guys are having Australian governments have been and most likely always will be strict on the matter because of the danger of poaching and all the revenue they make off of us reptile keepers by making us jump through hoops. I mean look at what you Americans have done with Ball Pythons. With all the breeders you guys have you would imagine that they don't need to be taken out of the wild but every year more and more are taken to satisfy the need for new morphs or just because they can. I have talked to a few American keepers who have been able to find Australian species that we can't even keep here or if they can be kept here they are 10-20 times cheaper. So why must you insist that we change the way that Australia has been functioning for all this time?


----------



## bensen (Apr 2, 2011)

gillsy said:


> No these are just animals that would sell overseas, BHP's, Monitors (3/4 different types,) Woma's, Few different morelia. All the wanted stuff overseas.


i don't know what sort of monitors you saw but most aussie monitors, womas, most morelia, are cheaper os, and bhp's wouldn't be worth freighting. i thought it was only customs and NPWS that believed the rubbish prices paid os.

another point to note is that os breeders who do have expensive critters don't want the floodgates open for imported stuff. there was never the market for aussie cockatoos and galahs as stated, wc birds would have sold for $10ea, not the $6K ea often quoted. captive bred galahs currently sell for about $US500, how could you breed them in australia and sell them for a profit? how could you sell wc for more than a few dollars each? those americans who were breeding sulphur-crested would
have lobbied harder than australian customs to prevent their own business suffering.


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 2, 2011)

From what I heard Red Tailed Black Cockatoo breeders are rare outside of Australia and fetch a load of money.


----------



## bensen (Apr 2, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> From what I heard Red Tailed Black Cockatoo breeders are rare outside of Australia and fetch a load of money.



heard from customs? there are a 100 times + as many breeders of RT black cockies overseas than in australia. poor example. they fetch about 4K per pair, not worth exporting them. keeping birds in general is a dying industry, worldwide. there is far more interest in herps.


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 2, 2011)

I heard it from an American breeder.........

and if that were the case then why is Peter McGrath pushing for exporting of Red Tailed Black Cockatoos to be legally exported? Bird Times Magazine Red-Tailed Black Cockatoo Profile


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 3, 2011)

Americans are not the only group of reptile keepers who like keeping Australian reptiles. There are a lot of reptile keepers in other countries that want Australian reptiles. I believe they would also like to import fresh bloodlines and more specific localities. Why did you bring birds into the mix? This thread is about reptiles. Shipping reptiles has gotten way better over the last few decades. Shipping isn't as stressful to reptiles as it is to many other animals. Speaking from experience, IATA has done a very good job of enforcing their rules and regulations for humane shipping. I haven't done much research about Australia's economy. I'm just going by hearsay from someone that lives there. I don't know what you mean by "the other country gets all the US imposed restrictions". Not one person here knows everything or sees the whole big picture from every point of view. Every one here has opinions and I respect that. Just don't accept your opinion or mine, as fact. Maybe you are right about never allowing legal export of reptiles. The rest of the world will just keep poaching your native reptiles, smuggling them, selling them on the black market, and continue breeding them all over the world.


----------



## pseudechis4740 (Apr 3, 2011)

On the smuggling issue; an old dull joke comes to mind.

What happens when a new reptile species is discovered or bred?
Two Germans buy plane tickets.

Smuggling fauna is a trade that has been going on since mankind first started keeping exotic or wild animals as pets. Regardless of weather or not export is legalised there will always be a demand for the next unique species that people are prepared to pay top dollar for. The environmental implications for the introduced or the native populations is dependent on so many variables that it impossible to predict..


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 3, 2011)

LOL I like that joke and there is some truth behind it. As long as there is a demand for rare reptiles, there will be smugglers to supply them.


----------



## bensen (Apr 3, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> I heard it from an American breeder.........
> 
> and if that were the case then why is Peter McGrath pushing for exporting of Red Tailed Black Cockatoos to be legally exported? Bird Times Magazine Red-Tailed Black Cockatoo Profile


 
dannii, you were six when that was written. peter has several hundred rtbc and the only reason he has them was the business was set up to export them. then his senator mate knocked himself before sorting it for him. now he's stuck with them and can't sell them in australia because there is no market for them here. he's now only trying to recoup something, not 'loads of money', and get rid of the birds he has.

what species of herps do you think are 20 times cheaper here than in the US. apart from perenties, lacies, shinglebacks and a few elapids, most sp are cheaper over there. you see, because they have such a range of herps which are cheap, they think $1K for N.vertebralis or even $600 for N.deleani is expensive, where here we would pay 10 times that just to have them. it is a fantasy to think there is so much money to be made os from breeding our herps.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 4, 2011)

Ok, here are just a few elapids that are cheaper in Australia at all. I'd say about 95% aren't available in the USA. 

Acanthophis antarcticus
Acanthophis praelongus
Acanthophis pyrrhus
Austrelaps labialis
Austrelaps ramsayi
Austrelaps superbus
Cacophis churchilli
Cacophis harriettae
Cacophis krefftii
Cacophis squamulosus
Demansia atra
Demansia calodera
Demansia olivacea
Demansia papuensis
Demansia psammmophis
Demansia reticulata
Demansia simplex
Demansia torquata
Denisonia devisii
Denisonia maculata
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) coronata
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) coronoides
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) mastersi
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) rhodogaster
Echiopsis atriceps
Echiopsis curta
Elapognathus minor
Furina diadema
Furina ornata
Glyphodon barnardi
Glyphodon dunmalli
Glyphodon tristis
Hemiaspis damelii
Hemiaspis signata
Hoplocephala bitorquata
Hoplocephala bungaroides
Hoplocephala stephensi
Notechis ater ater
Notechis ater humphreysi
Notechis ater niger
Notechis ater serventyi
Notechis scutatus occidentalis
Notechis scutatus scutatus
Oxyuranus microlepidotus
Oxyuranus scutellatus
Oxyuranus temporalis
Pseudechis australis
Pseudechis butleri
Pseudechis colletti
Pseudechis guttatus
Pseudechis pailsei
Pseudechis porphyriacus
Pseudonaja affinis
Pseudonaja guttata
Pseudonaja inframacula
Pseudonaja ingrami
Pseudonaja modesta
Pseudonaja nuchalis
Pseudonaja textilis
Rhinoplocephalus bicolor
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis) boschmai
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis) nigrescens
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis)nigrostriatus
Rhinoplocephalus nullabor
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis) pallidiceps
Simoselaps anomalus
Simoselaps approximans
Simoselaps australis
Simoselaps bertholdi
Simoselaps bimaculata
Simoselaps calonotus
Simoselaps fasciolata
Simoselaps incinctus
Simoselaps littoralis
Simoselaps minima
Simoselaps semifasciata
Simoselaps roperi
Simoselaps semifasciatus
Simoselaps warro
Simoselaps woodjonesii
Suta (Denisonia) fasciata
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) flagellum
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) gouldii
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) monachus
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) nigriceps
Suta (Denisonia) ordensis
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) punctata
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) spectabilis
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) dwyeri
Suta (Denisonia) suta
Tropidechis carinatus
Vermicella annulata
Vermicella multifasciata


----------



## silverback (Apr 4, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> I'd say about 95% aren't available in the USA.


 
about 96% aren't available in Australia


----------



## junglepython2 (Apr 4, 2011)

silverback said:


> about 96% aren't available in Australia


 
:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 4, 2011)

bensen said:


> dannii, you were six when that was written. peter has several hundred rtbc and the only reason he has them was the business was set up to export them. then his senator mate knocked himself before sorting it for him. now he's stuck with them and can't sell them in australia because there is no market for them here. he's now only trying to recoup something, not 'loads of money', and get rid of the birds he has.
> 
> what species of herps do you think are 20 times cheaper here than in the US. apart from perenties, lacies, shinglebacks and a few elapids, most sp are cheaper over there. you see, because they have such a range of herps which are cheap, they think $1K for N.vertebralis or even $600 for N.deleani is expensive, where here we would pay 10 times that just to have them. it is a fantasy to think there is so much money to be made os from breeding our herps.


 
I wasn't talking about breeding our herps being worth anything this was on the issue of smuggling. And as you said perenties, lacies, shinglebacks and a few elapids are worth more over there and I bet you I could find 10 stumpies in my backyard one plane trip later and say I got 10K (Which was quoted as the price) each then I would get 100,000 from one trip. And the thing is I don't require any proof that I purchased them because in South Australia Stumpies are on the exempt list. I could start keeping them in plastic tubs with no heat or water and every 3 months or so smuggle 10 or so over I would be rich (I would never do it but it wouldn't be to hard). Animal smuggling is getting easier because the dogs don't sniff your person they sniff your bags animals aren't metal so if they are on you there is no detection. All you have to do is avoid a pat down.


----------



## damian83 (Apr 4, 2011)

Sock Puppet said:


> Apart from the cane toad of course


 
you may be right there but the cane toad was not introduced as a PET...
i dont see many people letting loose reptile they have spent thousands on from europe or usa, when they can make money selling them here anyway


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 4, 2011)

My remark wasn't about pet or no pet, I just pointed out that cane toad is not a reptile. Bit picky, I know, don't hold it against me.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

Dannyboi - I hope you're not talking from experience...

I don't have a lot of information - but I am sure there's some truth in the saying - for every one that gets caught.... How many get through?

But... On saying that, the people getting caught aren't stupid. So the chances are you might get away with it once... But it's only a matter of time before you got caught. And if you're able to get $10k for just one stumpy (which I doubt) and you did manage to get 10 through - you'd better make sure you're only sending males... Because you'd cut off your nose to spite your face if you sent breeding pairs....

But let's say for example you got your $1,000,000 from exporting 100 stumpies (which I am sure would be possible in the hands of some idiots in the world) then would you stop?

Now... When I entered Cairns from NZ (a country not known to smuggle stuff into Aus - though a few forest gex would have made me rich too) a young, well dressed, respectable Asian man was stopped by a beagle... We watched very very closely... Did he have drugs on him? What about smuggled bird eggs from rare NZ parrots? What did he have?

A half eaten sanga from the plane... That's all he had and the dogs got him just like that.

Did he get a fine? I don't know - but it is an instant $200 fine.

He didn't get through with his lettuce and tomato sanga - what's the chances of you getting through with 10 stumpies stuffed down ya jocks?

Although my post is off the topic (slightly) and for that I do apologise - I don't think I can say anymore to this thread that would be helpful - other than, exporting reptiles from Australia is an idea that should not be looked into any further - and the talk of over-populations is ridiculous - so much so that I am not lowering myself to enter into the conversation that because there's large amounts of _x_ that we should export them to _y_!


----------



## Sock Puppet (Apr 4, 2011)

damian83 said:


> you may be right there but the cane toad was not introduced as a PET...


 
Yes, I realise it wasn't released as a species kept in captivity as a pet. My original comment was a generalisation about exotic herpetofauna being established in the wild with an impact on native species, in response to a previous post. 

I will endeavour to be more specific in future posts to avoid such ambiguity.


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 4, 2011)

For those that think there isn't a current demand for our reptiles from many different countrys around the world haven't seen the regular e-mails I get from overseas buyers. This is the standard reply I sent back.

Hi There
The live export of native fauna from Australia can not be legally done because of a ban on this under the Conservation and Environment Biodiversity act 1999.
It is a federal act, and unfortunately highlights how behind Australia is compared to other countries to take advantage of a sustainable natural resource. 
Sorry I couldn’t help you.

Cheers Dave


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

Are we really behind Dave? Or are we the ones in front???


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 4, 2011)

Behind the times in my opinion.
From faded memory I think the only state in Australia against native wildlife export back then was South Australia?
I actually have a copy of the senate report here, I fully recommend the read for those interested.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

But WA has even stricter internal regulations - far worse than any other state - how is it you're not complaining about that one first?

I think there's something to be said for endemic creatures not being exploited to the world. 

If it's just a financial thing - then export live sheep, cattle, horses etc - there's huge money in that (in fact in the several hundreds of millions of dollars per year). 

I don't have a real 'say' on the matter because it doesn't affect me... I just didn't like some of the reasoning behind this threads motives - they were unjustified and unreasonable.

My real reply was to Dannyboi re the illegal export (smuggling) of reptiles - but I needed to stay on topic... 

I personally think Australia and NZ lead the way in border control - and it shoudl stay that way (both ways, in and out).


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 4, 2011)

Is your first line a question to me slim6y? If it is, who said I am complaining ? just stating facts really.


----------



## silverback (Apr 4, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> For those that think there isn't a current demand for our reptiles from many different countrys around the world haven't seen the regular e-mails I get from overseas buyers.


 
buyers???? or spyers or (probably) 12 year old enquirers, 

just because you get enquiries doesn't mean that overseas people would pay the exhorbitant prices being quoted. you would be familiar with the red Egernia depressa, it is one of our most sought after skinks overseas. but they are still cheaper in germany and in the US than in australia.if you said you could get 500 of them at $20ea, you may have a buyer. you tell them that they sell for up to $2000ea in Sydney, they would lose all interest. the same with V.glauerti, nearly all Phyllurus and Saltuarius, all Neph's bar stellatus are cheaper overseas, just about all pythons are cheaper, probably due to NG stock for some, same with frillies and taipans. adult A.perthensis sell for 2-300euro throughout europe. Carphodactylus are less than half the price in europe as what they are here. RSPs are plummetting in price quicker than they did here.

i am sure you get lots of equiries for depressa and V.pilbarensis and more, but i am positive that doesn't equate to there ever being any offers of big dollars for them. they are cheap overseas by comparison with australian prices. it is a myth that there is big money involved. notwithstanding, of course there are many, many people who want things in their collections and will smuggle them anyway, but the issue of people spending large sums of money on our animals is a myth perpetuated by NPWS and customs to gain public resentment against our hobby.
perenties, lacies and shinglebacks are exceptions (due to the difficulty in smuggling them out over the last 40years, they haven't bred huge numbers yet and shinglebacks being naturally slow producers), but allowing trade would see them selling for what they do here. people aren't going to pay a few thousand dollars if they could legally obtain them here and export them.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Is your first line a question to me slim6y? If it is, who said I am complaining ? just stating facts really.


 
Sorry Dave, it was aimed at you... Though I wasn't suggesting you were complaining, more like why aren't you complaining about WA's strict recreational keeping laws?


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 4, 2011)

I'll leave the complaining in the good hands of the W.A herp group (WAHS) they seem to be making some progress albeit very slowly.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 4, 2011)

How aren't those listed elapid species available in Australia? I see the whole "escaped pet" argument as being very weak. Ask yourself this, are you really going to let a $5,000 Inland Taipan escape from it's cage, let alone your snake room, let alone your basement, let alone your house! I think NOT! And $5,000 is just the cost of the snake itself. Not shipping cost, not broker cost, not import cost, inspection fee, etc. For that big of an investment, I highly doubt escapees are going to be a problem. I'm going to go ahead and make the argument that escaped native species could just as well do damage to your own native population. Lets say someone had a litter of red belly black snakes born and they all escaped. Would that not cause an imbalance in the local ecosystem? I know you are all thinking about the burmese pythons in the Everglades. This was caused by irresponsible pet owners, not importers, not reptile breeders, not legit reptile keepers, but just that idiot that bought a burm from a pet shop because he thought it was cool at the time. All of the literarure I've read about burms in the Glades has pointed to other animals being more responsible to predation on native species. I believe it was a wood rat that was the topic of interest. They did a study on the stomach content of a colony of feral cats in the Glades and found them to be more detrimental to the population of rats than the burms themselves. 

For the argument of animals being more expensive in Australia than the stock that comes from Indonesia, Papua New Guinea or whatever, they aren't the real deal! People will pay good money to have captive bred locality Australian reptiles from new and different bloodlines, period! And then again, you can't speak with certainty that people would or wouldn't spend good money or that any exotic species are going to take up residence. I know one thing for sure, many of the world's big time dealers would HATE to see Australia open it's boarders because they make really good money from smuggling and selling to other countries.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

Since when do RBBS have a litter? Not to mention that the RBBS is a verywidely distributed snake.

So how do we guarantee that these $5,000 snakes are kept in a maximum security environment?

Did a cobra not just escape from Boston Zoo (though recaptured after nearly 2 weeks on the run). I would think a zoo would have a higher investment in security than a person buying a $5,000 snake.

From my experience, people with money don't always care enough about their animal to warrant extreme saftety measures - and to be honest, who'll enforce this?

And one word - disease....


----------



## fugawi (Apr 4, 2011)

I think that the costings on what the US pays for Aussie herps is wrong. Sure, at the moment they pay less than we do for US bred Aussie herps but if they REALLY want Aussie bred animals then THEY WILL pay through the nose. There IS a lot of cash to be made by an enterprising young Aussie breeder and the government can get a bit of spare cash through licensing. If the VERY, VERY strict controls are put in place......it could work. Saying that it would cost an American $1000 or so for a common Eastern Blue Tongue etc. Simple economics....user pays. I say Blueys because they have bred the black mark behind the eyes out of them and they would pay for new blood stock.

On saying this, Australia didn't close its borders on the export of natives to be isolationists. We did it to stop the rape and pillage of our native flora and fauna and to try to conserve our natives from extinction. Australian animals are currently at war, trying to survive everything from destruction of habitat to feral animals and they are losing. Our animals are being poached at an alarming rate and our ecosystem can't handle any more.

At the end of the day, America and Europe would pay for Aussie bred herps and there would be money in it for some Aussies (short term at least) but at what cost to the environment. The old saying "Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should" comes to mind here.

In Australia we WANT to conserve our natives, unlike the US we don't have a Brown Snake roundup or a hunting season on Koalas.


----------



## longqi (Apr 4, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> How aren't those listed elapid species available in Australia? I see the whole "escaped pet" argument as being very weak. Ask yourself this, are you really going to let a $5,000 Inland Taipan escape from it's cage, let alone your snake room, let alone your basement, let alone your house! I think NOT! And $5,000 is just the cost of the snake itself. Not shipping cost, not broker cost, not import cost, inspection fee, etc. For that big of an investment, I highly doubt escapees are going to be a problem. I'm going to go ahead and make the argument that escaped native species could just as well do damage to your own native population. Lets say someone had a litter of red belly black snakes born and they all escaped. Would that not cause an imbalance in the local ecosystem? I know you are all thinking about the burmese pythons in the Everglades. This was caused by irresponsible pet owners, not importers, not reptile breeders, not legit reptile keepers, but just that idiot that bought a burm from a pet shop because he thought it was cool at the time. All of the literarure I've read about burms in the Glades has pointed to other animals being more responsible to predation on native species. I believe it was a wood rat that was the topic of interest. They did a study on the stomach content of a colony of feral cats in the Glades and found them to be more detrimental to the population of rats than the burms themselves.
> 
> For the argument of animals being more expensive in Australia than the stock that comes from Indonesia, Papua New Guinea or whatever, they aren't the real deal! People will pay good money to have captive bred locality Australian reptiles from new and different bloodlines, period! And then again, you can't speak with certainty that people would or wouldn't spend good money or that any exotic species are going to take up residence. I know one thing for sure, many of the world's big time dealers would HATE to see Australia open it's boarders because they make really good money from smuggling and selling to other countries.



The important part here is; yes they will pay top dollar for 'reptiles from new and different bloodlines'
There are only so many specific localities for each species
Many of these localities are under a lot of pressure to survive now
With the added pressure of specifically target poaching their long term future could not be easily maintained

While in theory your idea is a good one
While yes a selective export business could make great money for four years
In the long term it would be detrimental to our reptiles


----------



## fugawi (Apr 4, 2011)

If Red bellied Black Snake babies got loose in Sydney, noone would notice........they are native to the entire east and south coast of Australia and would just join their kin. Blacks find their way into all the suburbs anyway, a couple more would make NO difference.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 4, 2011)

Export license : $2000

Inland Taipan : $5000

Australians having the peace of mind that our natives aren't being raped and pileged for kiddy American tantrums of wanting them just because they can't have them: Priceless


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Slim6y, What do you call a litter of RBBS?


----------



## fugawi (Apr 4, 2011)

You can call them what you want......they still wont come.)


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 4, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> How aren't those listed elapid species available in Australia? I see the whole "escaped pet" argument as being very weak. Ask yourself this, are you really going to let a $5,000 Inland Taipan escape from it's cage, let alone your snake room, let alone your basement, let alone your house! I think NOT! And $5,000 is just the cost of the snake itself. Not shipping cost, not broker cost, not import cost, inspection fee, etc. For that big of an investment, I highly doubt escapees are going to be a problem.


Yet an Egyptian cobra got escaped from a zoo. You cannot say with certainty that no pet will escape. 
Oh and Slimy no not from experience but I do know a fair few dogde people and well I will leave it at that. But imagine if exportation was legal one trip up the road I could pick up 100 stumpies hold onto them a month or so then line up some buyers and sell them. Because in SA they are exempt from permitting. So then it would come down to even more restriction here if they wanted to stop that and that is not fair lets put more rules on reptile keepers here so some people in the states can have them.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Slim6y, What do you call a litter of RBBS?


 
Isn't it a clutch??? Maybe it is a litter... Anyway - regardless of that - that was merely an initial statement and perhaps it backfired... To be perfectly honest, I am not sure of what the collective noun for baby snakes is... I honestly assumed it was a clutch!

Dannyboi - glad to think you're not crooked  But watch the beagles - they're good!!!


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 4, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Isn't it a clutch???


 
LOL, I don't know I imagine if the term clutch isn't correct, it is at least acceptable. I have allways refered to live bearers as having litters. I'm quite possibly wrong.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

steve1 said:


> LOL, I don't know I imagine if the term clutch isn't correct, it is at least acceptable. I have allways refered to live bearers as having litters. I'm quite possibly wrong.


 
haha.... I had a bit of a search going on - and I still can't find the answer - but I believe a 'clutch' is the group of eggs, not the actual snakelets... So let's just say for arguments sake that a clutch or a litter is correct for the time being until some English scholar can correct us


----------



## junglepython2 (Apr 4, 2011)

Rbbs are live bearers so litter is correct I'd imagine.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 4, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> Rbbs are live bearers so litter is correct I'd imagine.


 
Fair enough.. Stop trying to be right now... let's go back to bagging out Americans some more.... (and it can still be a clutch... because Steve1 said so...)


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Only because Chuck Norris allowed me to.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 5, 2011)

Red belly black snakes have been producing ovoviviparous litters of babies since the good ole' days. Didn't you know that? There is no guarantee that there will be any maximum security. It was the Bronx Zoo that had a cobra escape which is in one of the coldest parts of the United States...by the way. They found their snake shortly after it escaped and no one got hurt nor did it escape into the environment. Even if it did escape, it would have died through the winter. And if one snake escaped, how is it going to reproduce without a mate somewhere nearby? The chances of a pair of snakes escaping, surviving the winter, and reproducing in the wild are very low in the majority of the United States. You are simply focusing on South Florida when it comes to escaped snakes reproducing in the wild. Most people that buy expensive snakes don't just come up with the money right away. Normally they have to save their money or take out a loan out from a bank and pay interest. With that being said, it is a bigger deal to that person on how they keep their snakes, especially if it is venomous. I will use myself for example, I am saving up to make an order with a breeder in Europe for collettes blacks, red bellied blacks, inland taipans, and coastal taipans. It's going to take some time to save that money. To say that I am going to have an escaped snake is ridiculous. I've never had a snake escape and I've kept snakes since I was a little kid. There are far less escapes in venomous snakes than non-venomous snakes if you look at it as a safety aspect. And no one has ever died from the bite of an ESCAPED venomous snake in the USA. No one has even died from the bite of a venomous snake in the USA, other than the owner who took the risk and responsibility of owning that snake. 

Ok so why not open the trade up for four years? When I say that people here would pay for locality reptiles, I mean that they would pay for locality reptiles that are captive born and bred. A lot of dealers here won't buy wild caught animals for the same reasons that you don't want to import animals in Australia. For some, wild caught imports is a thing of the past. The wave is going more towards captive bred and born reptiles vs. wild caught. A lot of reptile expos here discourage and even ban wild caught animals from being sold. 

You don't think a group of escaped red belly black snakes would make any difference to the environment? Have you ever studied individual care and capacity for a given plot of land? There are only so many animals an area can withstand. Be it hiding areas, breeding areas, places to bask, holes to den in, egg laying sites, prey available, etc. There are only so many frogs and lizards in an area for red bellies to eat. 

You might THINK that Australians have the peace of mind that your natives aren't being raped and pileged for kiddy American tantrums of wanting them just because they can't have them, but the reality of it is that they are still being smashed over the head with shovels, ran over by cars, tortured by little kids, all by your fellow Australians, collected by Europeans, smuggled out of the country by Southeast Asia, and bred by Americans. At least the people that come in to take the reptiles out, care for them enough to want them to stay alive and reproduce.

I have a reasonable solution. Why would it not be a good idea so sell captive born reptiles that you have produced at your facility and use the profits that you make to buy land in Australia to use as sanctuaries for Australia's native wildlife? If all of you are so worried about Australia's wildlife and habitat destruction, what are you doing to help stop the cause? If you sit behind a computer and do nothing, than why are you on here fussing about Americans wanting to keep and breed species of Australian animals?


----------



## slim6y (Apr 5, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> You might THINK that Australians have the peace of mind that your natives aren't being raped and pileged for kiddy American tantrums of wanting them just because they can't have them, but the reality of it is that they are still being smashed over the head with shovels, ran over by cars, tortured by little kids, all by your fellow Australians, collected by Europeans, smuggled out of the country by Southeast Asia, and bred by Americans. At least the people that come in to take the reptiles out, care for them enough to want them to stay alive and reproduce.
> 
> I have a reasonable solution. Why would it not be a good idea so sell captive born reptiles that you have produced at your facility and use the profits that you make to buy land in Australia to use as sanctuaries for Australia's native wildlife? If all of you are so worried about Australia's wildlife and habitat destruction, what are you doing to help stop the cause? If you sit behind a computer and do nothing, than why are you on here fussing about Americans wanting to keep and breed species of Australian animals?



Sanctuaries - now there's an idea - where NO poaching can occur. But Australia is already rich enough to do that without the requirement of raping and pillaging our already shovel whacked environment....

So you're ideology stems from the fact that because cars and people hate our wildlife so much that we should now export it? 

Then your next ideology suggests that at least they're breeding in captivity?

You sound like the sort of person that enjoys a circus with bears chained to a cage. 

I'm sorry - I know some Australians agree with you - but for once I'd like to see humans RESPECT the environment and the place where native animals live - and LET THEM LIVE THERE!!!

If I want to see pandas I go to China... If I want to see lions, I go to Africa... if I want to see Taipans... I stay where I am! It's about time you learnt to do the same and stop your greedy human beliefs and left the animals where they belong...

Isn't that good enough for you, the world, and the rest of greedy society?


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> I have a reasonable solution. Why would it not be a good idea so sell captive born reptiles that you have produced at your facility and use the profits that you make to buy land in Australia to use as sanctuaries for Australia's native wildlife? If all of you are so worried about Australia's wildlife and habitat destruction, what are you doing to help stop the cause? If you sit behind a computer and do nothing, than why are you on here fussing about Americans wanting to keep and breed species of Australian animals?


 

My friend, not only you don't know much about the ecology, population densities, etc., of Australian reptiles but you also have no idea about Australian realestate, i.e. prices to buy land, nor you have any idea about the number and areas covered by National Parks and reserves, Aboriginal land - areas that are already protected. ..... However, I have to admire your persistence. I also dare to speak on behalf of most Australians - if we wont your advice, we shell ask.


----------



## fugawi (Apr 5, 2011)

Mr dpedwards08, firstly, what Americans know about RBBSs you only know because WE researched them and told you. Unlike Cobras that come from much closer to the equator, Blacks are livebearers because they come from a much cooler area. Whereas a Cobra will freeze in cooler climates, a Black will revel in the cold. Just a guess but 2/3 of the US could support Blacks easily. If a pair escaped they could do plenty of damage.
Second, it worries me what types of snakes you want to keep. Colletts, Blacks and Taipans. Are you prepared for the cost of keeping Aussie made antivenoms on site. Do you know that Colletts and Blacks are the same antivenom but Taipans, I think, use Brown or is it Taipan antivenom. Your local hospitals will NOT carry Aussie snake antivenom.
Third, as I said it could work but would have to be strictly and heavily regulated as far as exporting is concerned, very unlikely the gov will change its mind.
Fourth, Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, 1 or 2 would just assimilate easily.
Fifth, Australia is at the forefront of conservation, it takes time to change attitudes and Aussies are gaining a greater respect for our natives. The attitude " The only good snake is a dead one" is disappearing fast, our farmers are using Pythons in their grain silos to stop rats and mice, freeways have wildlife tunnels etc. We would be 50-100 years ahead of the US in conservation. ALL Aussie reptiles are protected by law. We don't care if a couple of Yank and European hobbyists want to take care of them in cages, we are more interested in stopping them from extinction in the wild.
And lastly.....Do you have any idea just how large Australia is? It is the same size as the US if you take off Alaska with only 60 million or so people. The Royal National Park, Blue Mountains National Park and Wollombi National Park entirely ring Sydney. On its own the Blue Mountains National Park is the size of Belgium. When we declare a National Park, we rope off an area the size of Oklahoma. Our Farmers build a wildlife corridor between paddocks to stop erosion, wind and to allow natives to move freely. Several thousand acres of land have been fenced off to allow the Bilby to come back from extinction. I could write 10 pages of conservation efforts around Australia and would only scratch the surface.
Lets look at USA...Mountain Lions are shot on site, Bears are killed during the hunting seasons, The Good Ole Rattlesnake roundup etc.....Your gun toting society will not be satisfied until it has killed everything that moves. Most Aussies on this thread have talked about conservation and changing attitudes towards our natives whereas you just want to get new bloodlines etc to boost up your pet industry......Who has the better priorities???


----------



## slim6y (Apr 5, 2011)

Fungawi = perfect

Well said - and I would say case closed...


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

Only if Chuck says so


----------



## fugawi (Apr 5, 2011)

Obviously everything I wrote finishes with "Except Chuck" (Just in case he reads this)


----------



## slim6y (Apr 5, 2011)

Fugawi




Chuck

Close enough I guess....


----------



## Bushman (Apr 5, 2011)

Ouch!


fugawi said:


> Mr dpedwards08, firstly, what Americans know about RBBSs you only know because WE researched them and told you. Unlike Cobras that come from much closer to the equator, Blacks are livebearers because they come from a much cooler area. Whereas a Cobra will freeze in cooler climates, a Black will revel in the cold. Just a guess but 2/3 of the US could support Blacks easily. If a pair escaped they could do plenty of damage.
> Second, it worries me what types of snakes you want to keep. Colletts, Blacks and Taipans. Are you prepared for the cost of keeping Aussie made antivenoms on site. Do you know that Colletts and Blacks are the same antivenom but Taipans, I think, use Brown or is it Taipan antivenom. Your local hospitals will NOT carry Aussie snake antivenom.
> Third, as I said it could work but would have to be strictly and heavily regulated as far as exporting is concerned, very unlikely the gov will change its mind.
> Fourth, Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, 1 or 2 would just assimilate easily.
> ...


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 5, 2011)

I think this thread really highlights a commonality between the majority of Australian reptile keepers, in that we manage to advocate the responsible keeping of reptiles while maintainig the conservation of our native reptiles/fauna/habitats, as our top priority. For me it makes the hobby that much more enjoyable.


----------



## fugawi (Apr 5, 2011)

Also Mr Edwards, could you please supply the name, address and all other contact details of your friend with his newly acquired Aussie natives to both the US quarantine and the Australian Minister for the environment so that appropriate charges can be laid............Thanks


----------



## nathancl (Apr 5, 2011)

You might THINK that Australians have the peace of mind that your natives aren't being raped and pileged for kiddy American tantrums of wanting them just because they can't have them, but the reality of it is that they are still being smashed over the head with shovels, ran over by cars, tortured by little kids, all by your fellow Australians, collected by Europeans, smuggled out of the country by Southeast Asia, and bred by Americans. At least the people that come in to take the reptiles out, care for them enough to want them to stay alive and reproduce.

I have a reasonable solution. Why would it not be a good idea so sell captive born reptiles that you have produced at your facility and use the profits that you make to buy land in Australia to use as sanctuaries for Australia's native wildlife? If all of you are so worried about Australia's wildlife and habitat destruction, what are you doing to help stop the cause? If you sit behind a computer and do nothing, than why are you on here fussing about Americans wanting to keep and breed species of Australian animals?[/QUOTE]

You are an idiot!


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2011)

nathancl said:


> You are an idiot!



I thought you were going to tell us something new.

Quote from Edwards' post: "I have a reasonable solution." Solution to what? Is there a problem that needs resolving?


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 5, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> I have a reasonable solution. Why would it not be a good idea so sell captive born reptiles that you have produced at your facility and use the profits that you make to buy land in Australia to use as sanctuaries for Australia's native wildlife? If all of you are so worried about Australia's wildlife and habitat destruction, what are you doing to help stop the cause? *If you sit behind a computer and do nothing, than why are you on here fussing about Americans wanting to keep and breed species of Australian animals*?


 
We are doing something... were saying no to your moronic idea aren't we.... That's conservation at it's finest.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 5, 2011)

This type of childish attitude displayed by Mr Edwards is so far backwards in thinking that it actually forgoes conservation for econmic gain.

It appears, to say the least, that the illegal removal of reptile (or other) species from Australia (and other countries) will continue on the black market - with many investigations continuing and eventually some of these smugglers will be caught.

A strong border control that exists in both NZ and Australia will continue to patrol the illegal exportation of wildlife. 

But it is still so sad to see that there is a beleif that caging is conservation regardless of country of origin. And that we have overlooked conservation as a form of conservation.

However, in Australia (and particularly other isolated countries) conservation is something that is now being understood more than ever. People even get up in arms over crocodile culling.

There is a small pocket of Australia that the media over-represents that have a significant fear of our wildlife. But, slowly this is changing. ANd it is changing from hobbyists like us that help educate the people out there. 

Regardless, Australia still has a firm affinity for their more cuddly creatures, and this will always be the case. From koala's drinking from water-bottles to saving them from chlamydia. From glider crossings over the Palmerston Highway to tunnels that allow roos and other natives to cross the roads unharmed.

Australia is a nation that loves its unique wildlife - and like many other countries in the world, that wildlife is NOT for sale. 

Ecology is such a big subject, and to hold an animal captive, in a non-native country is contrary to say the least. 

Now - I don't object entirely to zoos as they do serve a purpose - but I do object entirely to private collectors thinking they have a right to collect and keep animals from unique localities for their own gain. This is not conservation.

I don't think I've said anything different from anyone else - but Mr Edwards, you do seem to neglect simple facts in order for your own gratification and then you seem to sincerely believe you have a 'right' to any animal from anywhere in the world.

I think I mentioned it earlier - if you want taipans move to Australia, apply for your license and keep them.

But judging by your intial attitudes - I'm guessing Australia doesn't want you!


----------



## saximus (Apr 5, 2011)

I think it has all pretty much been said but one point that always gets on my nerves is the old "there is going to be a black market anyway, so you might as well legalise it"
From this logic should we also legalise sale of all stolen property (basically what smuggled WC snakes are)? No? How about illicit drugs? How about prostitution?


----------



## dangles (Apr 5, 2011)

well now that u mention it sax................................


----------



## Cockney_Red (Apr 5, 2011)

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but is anyone breeding spotteds this season ?


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 5, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but is anyone breeding spotteds this season ?


 
Not sure but I bought myself new pair of shoes today.
Please don't ask for photos. This is not a hoax.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 5, 2011)

Missing taipan n Sweden 'Missing snake' note rattles Malmö residents - The Local

Still convinced people can look after their black market, expensive animals???


----------



## pseudechis4740 (Apr 5, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Missing taipan n Sweden 'Missing snake' note rattles Malmö residents - The Local
> 
> Still convinced people can look after their black market, expensive animals???



I forgot this argument was still going on. ..

And yet we another example of the carelessness of man.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 6, 2011)

You have my idealogy all mixed up. Here is my idealogy. There are people in other parts of the world that appreciate your wildlife and will never get the opportunity to travel to Australia and see Australian wildlife in its natural environment. A plane ticket to Australia is in the thousands of dollars. Those people can make a positive contribution to the future of these species if only they are educated about them. The export of them can help educate people and possibly want to contribute to the future well being of these species. I have only ever seen one Inland Taipan in a zoo, and I’ve been to a lot of zoos and seen the back rooms in the reptile buildings. The Inland Taipan is the most venomous land animal in the world. That species should be able to be viewed and studied more by the public. That is a conservation tool. At the same time, it can help the Australian economy. I'm not saying that Australia has a bad economy like the United States, but you can never have too much money and reptile export would contribute to Australia's economy, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but I will use bearded dragons as an example. They will probably never go extinct. Why? Part is due in fact that there are thousands, if not millions, of them bred in captivity, and a lot, if not the majority, are bred in the United States. And get this, the first breeding stock was probably smuggled! 

Yes, collette's black snake and red bellied black snake bites require the use of black snake antivenin and taipan bites require the use of taipan antivenin made by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (CSL). We have that antivenin in the United States. Antivenin can be exported from Australia and imported into the United States. What you may not understand is that a couple of Yank and European hobbyists breeding them in cages is contributing to the conservation of those species whether you realize it or not. If Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, than what damage would export do. If there was a quota system put on the number of snakes legally allowed to be exported, whether they were wild caught or captive born, than what difference would it make? 

Conservation comes from the word conserve which means to keep in safety and protect from harm, decay, loss, or destruction. How isn't breeding reptiles in captivity, keeping in safety and protecting from harm, decay, loss, or destruction? How about that new taipan species, Oxyuranus temporalis. There have only been five specimens discovered and recorded of that species. Two of those five were sent to a zoo in Australia. Gee, I wonder why? Venom research and you guessed it, CAPTIVE BREEDING/STUDY! Do you think the zoo has no conservation reasons behind taking 2/5 of the known wild population of that species and bringing them into captivity? 

There might even be more Central Ranges Taipans (Oxyuranus temporalis) bred in the United States since 2009, than there have been wild specimens discovered in Australia, but you will never know


----------



## silverback (Apr 6, 2011)

slim6y said:


> Missing taipan n Sweden 'Missing snake' note rattles Malmö residents - The Local
> 
> Still convinced people can look after their black market, expensive animals???


 
the paper also says "it could also be a joke," an official with Malmö's office of environmental affairs told the local Sydsvenskan newspaper.

Jonas Wahlström from the Skansen animal park in Stockholm also suspects the note about the missing Taipan is a "sick joke".

i wouldn't rely on this for your argument. and besides, where do you get 'black market' from?


----------



## KaotikJezta (Apr 6, 2011)

Honestly, after watching videos of grossly overweight iguanas and idiots feeding them live mice and thinking a dog or cat harassing it until it bites them is playing, it is no wonder there is no export to the US.


----------



## kenneally1 (Apr 6, 2011)

Being a fan of Morelia, i say No to exporting from Aus, we have Everything apart from Oenpellis here , and i am sure once they are bred more regularly in Aus, One will miraculously appear in Europe (.


However Legal exports would only increase Illegal exports ( think about it ) and that can only be bad for the reptile itself.



Cockney_Red said:


> Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but is anyone breeding spotteds this season ?


 
Brilliant !!!!!


I am looking for perthensis?


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

You are persistent - that's for sure...

A ticket from somewhere to Australia = $thousands

A snake from Australia to somewhere = $thousands

I can't quite see the financial hardship in this comment.

Education - those that want a decent education can get this from many localities - especially of course here. I won't go into to many details as I am an educator myself. But education of course is the most important conservation tool of them all - and conservation... to conserve... Is also in the appropriate HABITAT! Not in a cage, not in a random person's 'collection'.

The one argument I can't stand is - there's plenty of em' let's take some!

You do understand that this is a very backwards thinking - in fact so far so that you may as well be using ground tiger bone to get better in bed.

There are probably more than hundred's of thousands of RBBS in the Sydney area... There's also 3 million people... We should relocate most of them and allow the RBBS back their original land!

The new thinking of conservation is setting up conservation parks - allowing native flora and fauna protection from introduced pests, hunting and poaching. You might see that as backwards - going all the way back to when animals ruled the land....

So if it is education you're looking up - then start with National Parks... 

Case closed... Your ideas and ideology is not welcome in my books.



silverback said:


> the paper also says "it could also be a joke," an official with Malmö's office of environmental affairs told the local Sydsvenskan newspaper.
> 
> Jonas Wahlström from the Skansen animal park in Stockholm also suspects the note about the missing Taipan is a "sick joke".
> 
> i wouldn't rely on this for your argument. and besides, where do you get 'black market' from?


 
I agree - it could have been a joke... However, the latter comment - I can't answer... if I knew I'd be onto the Police and relevant authorities immediately because poaching is one of the sickest forms of theft in the world! But, I could imagine it is possible.


----------



## junglepython2 (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> You have my idealogy all mixed up. Here is my idealogy. There are people in other parts of the world that appreciate your wildlife and will never get the opportunity to travel to Australia and see Australian wildlife in its natural environment. A plane ticket to Australia is in the thousands of dollars. Those people can make a positive contribution to the future of these species if only they are educated about them. The export of them can help educate people and possibly want to contribute to the future well being of these species. I have only ever seen one Inland Taipan in a zoo, and I’ve been to a lot of zoos and seen the back rooms in the reptile buildings. The Inland Taipan is the most venomous land animal in the world. That species should be able to be viewed and studied more by the public. That is a conservation tool. At the same time, it can help the Australian economy. I'm not saying that Australia has a bad economy like the United States, but you can never have too much money and reptile export would contribute to Australia's economy, probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Wow hundreds of thousands?? That might buy a few roundabouts. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but I will use bearded dragons as an example. They will probably never go extinct. Why? Part is due in fact that there are thousands, if not millions, of them bred in captivity, and a lot, if not the majority, are bred in the United States. And get this, the first breeding stock was probably smuggled! It is a very bad example, the fact that beardies will not go extinct has absolutely nothing to do with how many high coloured morph xs are bred in the USA.
> 
> Yes, collette's black snake and red bellied black snake bites require the use of black snake antivenin and taipan bites require the use of taipan antivenin made by the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories (CSL). We have that antivenin in the United States. Antivenin can be exported from Australia and imported into the United States. Yes I'm sure you they will be sent straight over if you get bitten . What you may not understand is that a couple of Yank and European hobbyists breeding them in cages is contributing to the conservation of those species whether you realize it or not. That is not conservation at all, they will never ever, even be considered for re-release. If Blacks around Sydney would number in the hundreds of thousands, than what damage would export do. If there was a quota system put on the number of snakes legally allowed to be exported, whether they were wild caught or captive born, than what difference would it make? Look up what you did to the carrier pigeon.....
> 
> ...


 
....


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 6, 2011)

I was talking about the education of the general public, not people that want to smuggle reptiles out of the country to sell so yes a vacation to Australia would be very expensive. Most people can't just get up and go to Australia to go wildlife watching let alone spend the money on a plane ticket, rental car, food, hotel, etc. Your average person in another country can't just go to any ole' zoo or wildlife park and see a taipan or any other Australia elapid. It's very rare. What I was getting at was that if more of them were exported here, more people would be educated about them and be able to appreciate them if they were displayed more. You say that conservation is in natural HABITAT. So what happens when there is no more habitat? Does conservation end once there is no habitat left? No, it continues in breeding programs. My defense to exporting reptiles for captive breeding purposes and continuing a life form is completely different than killing tigers to use its body parts for reasons that are completely bogus. How is bringing a small percentage of a strong species' wild population into captivity backwards thinking? I am beginning to realize how many animal rights nuts there are on this forum. You seem pro-animal, not pro-human with comments like "...when animals ruled the land". A National Park is only one very small part of education about animals. I'd have to say that they have more hikers, campers, boaters, etc. that they make money on than educating them about animals. The conservation of the animals in the park is a lot lower on their list of priorities than you think. Live about 45 minutes from one and have been there many times. I regularly communicate with Australian reptile educators and none of them work for a National Park. That is for the government to run, not a private individual. The last time I learned something about a reptile at a National Park was...never. For you to think that exporting some reptiles is as detrimental to Australia as you are making it, is absolutely insane.


----------



## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 6, 2011)

No point in breeding animal to observe their natural behaviour if they are not in a natural habitat. 
If the natural habitat is gone so are the animals in the rawest sense, even if we do breed them


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> You have my idealogy all mixed up. Here is my idealogy. There are people in other parts of the world that appreciate your wildlife and will never get the opportunity to travel to Australia and see Australian wildlife in its natural environment. A plane ticket to Australia is in the thousands of dollars.
> 
> A New native stock from Australia will cost $5K, for a taipan over there... it's a long stay here in Australia... Void argument or is it that you don't get to keep Australia as a pet but you will a Taipan and make your money back from the offspring.. Australian Ecomony please.... pull the other one mate... If you get the taipan there's no need for you to come back here and keep stimulating our economy rather your pockets from the breeding. Do you think we can't see through your thin arguments...
> 
> ...


 
CONSERVATION huh???


----------



## Australis (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08,

For your own benifit, look into the arguments surrounding *in situ *and *ex situ *conservation.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

"For you to think that exporting some reptiles is as detrimental to Australia as you are making it, is absolutely insane."

So you're suggesting because of conservation practices that restrict the export and import of animals out of and into Australia makes us 'insane'?

I think the cookie is in the other jar somehow....


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 6, 2011)

An animal's reproductive biology is going to be the same whether it is in the wild or in captivity. It's not like snakes are going to switch it up a bit for some new romantic fire once they are placed into an enclosure. If the habitat is gone and the animals have been removed from their habitat for breeding than we as humans can continue their species. A piece of land can be purchased for the regrowth of a habitat and the animals released. It has been done before. 

Who said anything about new native stock from Australia? In order to breed you would need a male and a female. That is $10K. You can't spend $5K and breed with one animal. There would be no tourism dollars because a lot of people can't afford a vacation to Australia. That is why importing them into the United States from Australia would help educate the people that would otherwise not be able to go to Australia. Are you able to grasp simple concepts? Most venomous snakes wouldn't be in the pet trade. Generally speaking your average person or reptile keeper wouldn't even consider keeping venomou snakes so that turns your argument into a joke. "Tonight on channel 9 news, man gets arrested for selling an Inland Taipan in a pet store" hahahahahaha. Without mentioning any names, I have communicated with people in Australia that keep reptiles in an area where Inland Taipans are relatively common. He catches them near home and breeds them. Whether he "pops down the road", I don't know. But he did say they were fairly common. I do have knowledge, but not experience with Inland Taipans and I have spoken to people who do have experience and they are saying the exact opposite of you. You live in Australia and I'm kind of wondering what experience you have. Seeing them in a zoo is all the more reason to just go to a zoo here and see one. You are apart of conservation if you are re-creating life for a species in a cage whether you want to believe it or not. This website is called "Aussie Reptile Keeper". Sounds to me like it has some people who keep reptiles, in some type of cage, possibly breed them, and probably sell the offspring. Could that be possible? Meanwhile, you are on the same site arguing against that. Are you a hypocrite?


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> An animal's reproductive biology is going to be the same whether it is in the wild or in captivity. It's not like snakes are going to switch it up a bit for some new romantic fire once they are placed into an enclosure. If the habitat is gone and the animals have been removed from their habitat for breeding than we as humans can continue their species. A piece of land can be purchased for the regrowth of a habitat and the animals released. It has been done before.
> 
> Yes so why would we buy them back from you rather we would just breed them ourselves. AGAIN what are you qualifications in conservation??? There's a reason why qualified establishments are given permits for exportation and not the 4 x 2 x 2 "wildlife" conservationist.
> 
> ...


 
Good luck with your "Conservation" mate. If we need your help will make sure to call you.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

Conservation $ from eco-tourism is much greater for both education and financial gain in Australia than allowing people to own the snakes for educating purposes outside of Australia.

The concept is pure and simple and is economics AND conservation all rolled into one.

To make it even more simple for you:

Go to the Australia Zoo website and read about the conservation programs in place to stop people like you removing our wildlife.

One particular case from Australia Zoo - Conservation - Programs

Queensland Womas
1.Critically endangered, if not already extinct, the eastern form of Woma has already succumbed to the devastation of its specific habitat. Australia Zoo hopes to prevent the eastern most form of this snake following in the same footsteps. 

2.A Brigalow belt species, the south east Queensland form of Woma, is highly restricted in its natural range. Existing in the most endangered scrub in Australia where past practices of chain pulling, over grazing and too frequent use of fire have decimated habitat and some localized populations have even become extinct. 

3.The breeding biology of this Woma group is a critical key in the future of its survival and Australia Zoo is working hard to solve the mystery of what natural triggers exist to prompt breeding behaviour. *The zoo will then follow through with a release program onto secure, protected habitat to re-establish populations of this gentle and highly endangered group. To further enhance this program, a continuing education of land holders within this highly fragile region and restoration of already severely damaged areas is also on going. *

That is a ZOO idea of conservation.... Pick the ways yours is simalar.


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Apr 6, 2011)

Haven't even read most of this, but I bet I haven't missed much. Semantic arguments about what is 'conservation', (the definition of which seems to be changeable at the will of the debater) the relative values of the animals exported vs the cost to the environment if some are taken from the wild etc etc etc...

The truth is that for many, many years, heaps of Oz species have been more readily available, and far cheaper overseas than they are here, even today. Dave Barker was breeding cracker Jungle Pythons in '95 when I visited him in Texas, and selling them for US$200, along with heaps of other Oz species. I paid $1600 a pair for Jungles from SXR only 4 years ago, for animals of similar quality here in Oz. Most of the illegal traffic we will see in coming days (apart from a few target 'icon' species), both into and out of Australia is for the morph market, i.e, has been and always will be artefacts of captive breeding. The arrival of Jags and albino BHPs in this country, and the expected availability of things like Granites and Zebras sometime soon means that the market just waits for things to turn up here a little while after they appear in Europe of the US.

My bet is that there is now only a very limited overseas market for 'locale' reptiles, or those of known provenance, so the impact on wild populations, of allowing the export of reptiles from Australia would be nil on all but a very few icon species. Many of the commentators here are just not familiar with trends elsewhere in the world, and there is a good deal of parochialism in the opinions expressed here.

Jamie


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 6, 2011)

Purchasing land for regrowth and then reintroducing species is a last resort and from what I understand, for the most part unsuccessful


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Purchasing land for regrowth and then reintroducing species is a last resort and from what I understand, for the most part unsuccessful



I'm not sure I agree with that.

For example, the takahe ( http://www.doc.govt.nz/upload/documents/science-and-technical/dsis151.pdf ) although not as fast as hoped - there is a pure example of purchased (government) land then introducing a species that is endangered and breeding them.

The net is littered with prime examples of conservation success stories - however, there are some conservation horror stories too I am sure.


----------



## Bushman (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> ...You are apart of conservation if you are re-creating life for a species in a cage whether you want to believe it or not. This website is called "Aussie Reptile Keeper". Sounds to me like it has some people who keep reptiles, in some type of cage, possibly breed them, and probably sell the offspring. Could that be possible? Meanwhile, you are on the same site arguing against that. Are you a hypocrite?


Sounds to me like someone is getting their forums mixed up. This website is called "Aussie Pythons and Snakes". :?
"Aussie Reptile Keeper" is another Aussie reptile forum. You have the same discussion going on over there I see. 
Surely you've had enough by now!


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 6, 2011)

I never said Australians would buy them back from Americans because they wouldnt. I dont have any qualifications to be a conservationist and never claimed to have any. You are confusing two groups of people I was talking about. You were implying that I said a reptile keeper wouldnt be able to afford a trip to Oz but could afford $10K worth of snakes. You confused two different issues that I was talking about. Or you tried to mix them together to make a point non related to anything this thread is about. How is seeing them in a cage NOT educating people about them? If they read a simple sign with the name Inland Taipan next to the cage, that is the purest form of education. Most signs have more info on them than just a name though. Again, the export zoo thing is not true. I know someone who has imported reptiles from Australia who isn't associated with any zoo. There is a loop hole in every system! Yes he catches them, breeds them, and probably sells them. No I will not give any names on a public forum. He is a realist who doesn't take your bullshit rules and regulations for an answer. 

Oh sorry you're right, it's called Aussie Pythons and Snakes with "how do i sell my snakes", "repcubtor", and 
"Southern Cross Reptiles-Selective breeding for 20 yrs and constantly selecting the best of the best to provide you the highest quality captive bred stock" advertisement across on the front page. Some conservation site this is, huh? Give me a break! Who started the Australia Zoo? Let me guess...hmm. Bob Irwin and Steve Irwin. They used to keep wall to wall snakes in their living room for no other reason than they just liked them. That's pet keeping at its best. And there is nothing wrong with that! 

Jamie you are right about that, but there would still be people that would buy reptiles from Australia even if they were expensive. It would be impossible for the market to ignore and withhold from buying reptiles from Australia. We couldn't keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We can't even do it now, thats why there are so many Australian reptiles here now.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 6, 2011)

slim6y said:


> I'm not sure I agree with that.
> 
> For example, the takahe ( http://www.doc.govt.nz/upload/documents/science-and-technical/dsis151.pdf ) although not as fast as hoped - there is a pure example of purchased (government) land then introducing a species that is endangered and breeding them.
> 
> The net is littered with prime examples of conservation success stories - however, there are some conservation horror stories too I am sure.


 
Can't open your link sorry.

I'm sure there are success stories, however I think it would depend an awfull lot on how badly degraded the area is and the type of animal being reintroduced. regardless of the successes using it as a means to justify a potentialy negative environmental practice is ludicruos. PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN THE CURE.

The fact the net is littered with success stories only highlights how often we stufed up in the first place

If there is a loophole and you know this person done it legally (which I doubt) then why are you posting this and not exploiting the loophole for your own puposes. I would love some more info on how this person legaly obtained an Inland Taipan


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Can't open your link sorry.
> 
> I'm sure there are success stories, however I think it would depend an awfull lot on how badly degraded the area is and the type of animal being reintroduced. regardless of the successes using it as a means to justify a potentialy negative environmental practice is ludicruos. PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN THE CURE.
> 
> ...


 
Now that's something i can agree on!!!


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> I never said Australians would buy them back from Americans because they wouldnt. I dont have any qualifications to be a conservationist and never claimed to have any. You are confusing two groups of people I was talking about. You were implying that I said a reptile keeper wouldnt be able to afford a trip to Oz but could afford $10K worth of snakes. Buy the 10k snakes and make 80k of the progeny ....You confused two different issues that I was talking about my mistake i should be more clear and instead of using the word conservation I'll replace it with wildlife exploitation (better??). Or you tried to mix them together to make a point non related to anything this thread is about the thread is you asking us to lobby our government to supply the pet trade with your week arguments and trying to mask them in "conservation" (sorry wildlife exploitation). How is seeing them in a cage NOT educating people about them welll keep looking at them in a zoo then no need for you to own one then... oh education of the public well tick that one off then? If they read a simple sign with the name Inland Taipan next to the cage, that is the purest form of education. Most signs have more info on them than just a name though yes zoos have very informative signs. Does every pet keepr in the US have these signs as well in front of their cages?. Again, the export zoo thing is not true. I know someone who has imported smuggled reptiles from Australia who isn't associated with any zoo. There is a loop hole black market trade in every system! Yes he catches poaches them, breeds them, and probably sells them. No I will not give any names on a public forum. He is a realist smuggler who doesn't take your bullshit rules and regulations wildlife laws for an answer.
> 
> Oh sorry you're right, it's called Aussie Pythons and Snakes with "how do i sell my snakes", "repcubtor", and
> "Southern Cross Reptiles-Selective breeding for 20 yrs and constantly selecting the best of the best to provide you the highest quality captive bred stock" advertisement across on the front page. Some conservation site this is, huh it's not a conservation site it's a reptile forum? Give me a break! OK just go away then Who started the Australia Zoo? Let me guess...hmm. Bob Irwin and Steve Irwin. They used to keep wall to wall snakes in their living room for no other reason than they just liked them. That's pet keeping at its best. And there is nothing wrong with that! Nothing... because they educate the public and employ qualified people... how many people will you be taking through your mom's house educating them about snakes??
> ...


 
Took the liberty in correcting some of the text in your post: see underlined words.


----------



## Ramsayi (Apr 6, 2011)

Pointless discussion/debate that is just helping to fill up the interweb thingy.It aint going to happen and crapping on about it on a forum isn't going to alter the fact.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 6, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Pointless discussion/debate that is just helping to fill up the interweb thingy.It aint going to happen and crapping on about it on a forum isn't going to alter the fact.



Agreed and I'm done with that clown...


----------



## Bushman (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> ...I know someone who has imported reptiles from Australia who isn't associated with any zoo. There is a loop hole in every system! Yes he catches them, breeds them, and probably sells them. No I will not give any names on a public forum. He is a realist who doesn't take your bullshit rules and regulations for an answer.
> ...We couldn't keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We can't even do it now, thats why there are so many Australian reptiles here now.


You need to calm down a bit Dpedwards08.
If for no other reason than keeping your friends loophole open, who I'm sure wouldn't be happy about you blowing his racket in order for you to blow your own trumpet on Australian reptile forums. 
You can rest assured that the authorities will be looking into this now that you've brought it to their attention. 





dpedwards08 said:


> Oh sorry you're right, it's called Aussie Pythons and Snakes ...Some conservation site this is, huh? Give me a break!...


 APS never claimed to be a conservation site but many herpetologists and hobbyists care passionately about the conservation of our wildlife!


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 6, 2011)

I would be surprised if his mate has found a loophole, there is ways of legitimising the snake once it's over there, but that is thier loophole not ours.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Agreed and I'm done with that clown...



But what's the point of trolls if no one is biting...

However, regardless of the immense and credible information this 'clown' still beleives he is right - then you can honestly be left with just one thing to say....

Americans....


----------



## fugawi (Apr 6, 2011)

G'day Mr Edwards
I understand and respect your idealogy, I think it is outdated and wrong, but I respect it so I will just counter debate your points to try to get you to see the Aussie point of view.

I would love to get up close to American native animals but alas, I too can't afford to go to the USA.......Thats life. Animals in zoos are completely different to animals in private collections. Zoos around the world work as a collective in scientific study and captive breeding programs to aid in the re-release of animals back into their native environments. Private collections are interested in a captive breeding program for profit and to boast that "I have one of these". You must take the first step to understanding that zoos and private collections have completely different aims and objectives. I will take your Beardie point. Yes, millions of them are bred around the world but none of them have made their way back here to re stock the wild populations (they wouldn't survive anyway, sunbursts and scaleless etc wouldn't fit in) I'd warrant a guess that the USA and Europe don't have a proper natural colouration Central Beardie left. Also, there are, I think 7 types of Beardies in Australia, not just the Vitticeps, how does the worldwide pet industry help them? They are ignored because they are not as pretty or sellable.
You have obviously researched the antivenoms which is good but are YOU prepared to keep a fresh, in date supply ON SITE. Your hospitals WON'T keep it. You may be the only source for 1000 miles. As far as keeping them in Europe and USA in private collections, well it's purely for profit and the amusement of the collector not science or conservation. What you need to understand is that Black Snakes are common BECAUSE we DON'T export them around the world.
Your last paragraph....Conservation STARTS with the natural habitat, not captive breeding which is a LAST resort before extinction. First we try to preserve the natural habitat so the native species can proliferate undisturbed. If their numbers drop we try to protect the habitat from feral pests. If their numbers continue to drop we then start to captive breed them. As far as the Temporalis is concerned, that dot on the map indicating its range is probably a couple of hundred miles in diameter, they will find many more than 5 as they widen the search. I am soooooo happy to see that a zoo is studying and captive breeding them rather than a private collector.

And lastly Private breeders of any animals have a tendancy to want to change the original animal, larger, smaller, colours, patterns etc to make it more original and sellable. Cats and Dogs are prime examples, noone actually knows what the original cats and dogs looked like before domestication. They have been morphed, crossed and interbred so much that the original breed is probably extinct. The Budgerigar, common around the world, has been changed so much that they are almost separate species. The pet industry is never interested in keeping things original, it has to try to make them better. There is no conservation in the pet industry...just profits.
At this moment in time I can walk into my backyard and look up and see Cockatoos and Corellas flying past, Rosellas, Rainbow and Scaly Breasted Lorikeets in the trees, at night there are Tawny Frogmouths and Grey Headed flying foxes flying around, on the ground I could find Blue Tongues, Beardies, Water Dragons, Blacks and Brown Snakes, Diamond Pythons and in the creeks tortoises, all this in the suburbs of Sydney. I can do this BECAUSE we don't export them. What will I see if we do??


----------



## Cockney_Red (Apr 6, 2011)

Quality post Fugawi, pretty much sums up my thoughts, without needing to cramp up my 2 keyboard digits....


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

Fugawi is promoted to god....


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 6, 2011)

kenneally1 said:


> Being a fan of Morelia, i say No to exporting from Aus, we have Everything apart from Oenpellis here , and i am sure once they are bred more regularly in Aus, One will miraculously appear in Europe (.?


An American mate of mine told me they are there already. We aren't breeding them here at all really.


----------



## REPTILIAN-KMAN (Apr 6, 2011)

fugawi said:


> .
> You have obviously researched the antivenoms which is good but are YOU prepared to keep a fresh, in date supply ON SITE. Your hospitals WON'T keep it. You may be the only source for 1000 miles. As far as keeping them in Europe and USA in private collections, well it's purely for profit and the amusement of the collector not science or conservation. What you need to understand is that Black Snakes are common BECAUSE we DON'T export them around the world.
> Your last paragraph....Conservation STARTS with the natural habitat, not captive breeding which is a LAST resort before extinction. First we try to preserve the natural habitat so the native species can proliferate undisturbed. If their numbers drop we try to protect the habitat from feral pests. If their numbers continue to drop we then start to captive breed them. As far as the Temporalis is concerned, that dot on the map indicating its range is probably a couple of hundred miles in diameter, they will find many more than 5 as they widen the search. I am soooooo happy to see that a zoo is studying and captive breeding them rather than a private collector.
> 
> ...


 
Fugawi should have the last say on this thread ! 

How much money do you have cuase keeping up to date with the anti vens and the cost of them and being sent to the USA in transport will cost you your arm and both legs !!! stick with what you have there already cobras !


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> I regularly communicate with Australian reptile educators and none of them work for a National Park. That is for the government to run, not a private individual. .


 
Steve Irwin....... He used a load of his profit to buy land and turn it into reserves he also educated the world on reptiles.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 6, 2011)

I agree KMAN - Fugawi should have the last say - only a fool would argue with that logic.

Finally from me (unless something really stirs me up in here):

Want a nice Aussi brown?

Try a brown tree snake (ok, so it's a colubrid... but... you can get one)...

Go to Guam - I hear they're giving them away!!!


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 6, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> . Who said anything about new native stock from Australia? In order to breed you would need a male and a female. That is $10K. You can't spend $5K and breed with one animal.


Bynoes Geckos...... you only need one.


----------



## Ozzie Python (Apr 6, 2011)

Bring in the debating club from the gay discrimination thread. They'll sort this out for us 

Fact is it doesn't matter how much we wanted to send animals OS it wouldn't happen. Educating Australia would be a much higher priority, and far more beneficial to helping our native animals. Surely you guys in the USA have animals that require attention, better to look after your own backyard first i think.


----------



## Hoyle00cdn (Apr 6, 2011)

Domesticated dogs are technically a subspecies of the c.lupus species, so in retrospect we do know what the original dog breed looked, and continues to look like, it's called the gray wolf. But this is off topic.

Australian export laws are neither good nor bad, they are simply a set of laws that regulate the distribution or lack thereof towards their native animals. It's a method of maintaining the status quo; if it's not broken why fix it. 

It would be nice if Aussie reptiles were more easily accessible around the world. I myself would love to get my hands on an Australian Water Dragon. The quality of these animals always amaze me, but having said that this very quality can be attributed too the exportation laws you guys are discussing. Aussie reptiles outside Australia are rare to find but not impossible, and when they are found you can rest assure a high probability that it came from a reputable line of captive breeding. They're always healthy, acclimatized to captive living, and more easily tamed. 

Breeding tends to have more of a face attached too it than commercial gains. Private breeders take their hobby more serious and take care in knowing where their offspring are going. You won't find any Australian reptiles in a petsmart or petco because their notorious husbandry habits keep them on bad terms with private breeders.

To put things into perspective. Chinese water dragons go for about $70 a piece, while Australian Water Dragons start around $300. The main reason for the difference is the low supply and the quality you are guaranteed. While exportation laws do make it hard to obtain these amazing animals, it DOES improve the quality of life for them both in the wild AND in captivity.


----------



## fugawi (Apr 7, 2011)

Why is it a Canadian can "Get it" straight away but Americans just don't? 

I thought African Wild Dogs were the closest, I am probably wrong.


----------



## Hoyle00cdn (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm no expert on canine evolution, but I believe all known domestic dogs are classified within the canis-lupus species under either _C. l. familiaris_ and _C. l. dingo subspecies*. *_The African Wild dog is a different genus ans species.
In terms of breeding, cross breeding subspecies under the same species is not really hybrid breeding and does not cause infertile offspring.


----------



## fugawi (Apr 7, 2011)

You learn something new everyday


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 7, 2011)

You can call me every name in the book to try to offend me, but here is the bottom line. I as an American have the freedom to catch, breed, sell, trade, import, and export reptiles freely. You as Australians don’t. You are jealous and resent the freedoms that Americans have. We have access to almost any reptile we want and you resent that. That is why you make derogatory comments about Americans. I can get all those elapids, it just takes money. The only argument you have is based on conservation which is because you have no other arguments to choose from. Your government makes your decision for you and that’s the control they want over you. They don’t want you to rebel against them and I can see they’ve done a very good job of controlling you. This website is based on captive reptiles rather than a holier than thou conservation mission. If you keep a reptile in a cage for a pet or as a collection and then come on here and bash me for doing the very same thing, than that makes you a hypocrite. If you are so against it, then why are you on here in the first place? If you have ever bought, sold, or traded a reptile than you have no leg to stand on based on what you have all been saying on this thread. So after reading this, go ahead and stray off to another topic because you have nothing better to say. I still love you Australia!


----------



## slim6y (Apr 7, 2011)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Oh wow - that actually made me choke a little...

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but jealousy is not a noun I'd use for me at all.

I am sure some people here wished they could keep corn snakes (legally) - god only knows why though.

I do not wish to offend you - but this is my personal opinion (thus far) - you appear to be very selfish and you wish to bignote yourself with the "Look what I have" attitude - which is very typical of capitilism of course. 

What you lack in your collection is exactly what we have - this makes us jealous??? That's the biggest load of codswollop I've ever heard.

What I am very worried about - is despite the incredible knowledge on this site, you still think what you're fighting for is right - despite being the only person who believes this. 

There may be some more of your comrades who'd also support your cause - but none of them will be from here - unless they're money hungry smugglers.

So - it's time for you to curl up and run away with your tail between your legs - our snakes, our reptiles and our freedom to talk to trolls will remain.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 7, 2011)

slim6y said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Oh wow - that actually made me choke a little...
> 
> Well, I can't speak for everyone, but jealousy is not a noun I'd use for me at all.
> 
> ...




Early troll feeding I see... noice


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Apr 7, 2011)

With all due respect dpedwards08, you are a bit misleading in your suggestions that you can do whatever you like, with whatever you want, just because you are in the USA. Just like Australia, your regulations vary from state to state, there are constraints on what you can export and import, and on the movement of certain species between states and even within individual states. And as you would know, the constraints you have now are being reviewed constantly, mostly with a view to further restricting your 'freedoms'. Just like Australia, some states in the US are better than others with regard to a relaxed approach to reptile keeping, and the only true differences we have here are that we need to do a ridiculous amount of quite pointless paperwork as reptile keepers, and the restrictions on keeping exotics, and the import and export of reptiles internationally. There is an elemnt in Australia which has an interest in exotic reptiles, but for the most part, because Australia has a huge number of quite desirable endemic species, keepers are happy with what they already have here.

You are quite wrong to suggest that individuals overseas can import Australian reptiles, from Australia, by exploiting 'loopholes' in the law. There are none, and any private individuals who do have access to Australian species directly from Australia can only do so by breaking the law.

Reptile keepers worldwide, and maybe especially in the US, are being subjected to increasing bureaucratic and political pressure to control their activities. Despite the picture you paint of the USA, all is NOT rosy in the garden of Eden...

Jamie.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 7, 2011)

.............


----------



## slim6y (Apr 7, 2011)

Red-Ink said:


> Early troll feeding I see... noice



Trolls have feelings too you know?

However, their feelings aren't well regarded - it's a shame that often this troll talks of education but fails to recieve one....


----------



## saximus (Apr 7, 2011)




----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 7, 2011)

Yes I can be a bit selfish at times, but at least I will admit it. I must say that you only know me from what I have posted on here for one topic. You don’t know anything else about me. One of the first things I heard about you is “American this and American that”. It takes a very low person to say derogatory things about one’s country/race. I may not have all the Australian elapids I want yet, but I will in the near future. It is either bred here or can be imported here. We have rattlesnakes, cobras, mambas, etc and yes that makes a lot of Australian keepers jealous because we have what they want and they can't get it. I'm not the only one who thinks Australia should export reptiles. There are many American breeders that would like to be able to get reptiles out of Australia. 

I am completely right about importing reptiles from Australia legally. I have been communicating with one individual, who I will not name, within the last week. He has imported from Australia several times legally and is working on an order right now. He has Australian elapids, Australian monitors, and Australia crocs all imported legally with permits. It can be done. He even told me he wishes Australia was more open to export. It may not necessarily be a loophole, but it isn’t common knowledge either. Most common knowledge isn’t entirely true. 

We have a heck of a lot more freedoms with keeping reptiles than you do. The Australian government has you on a leash lol. We may have some regulations on venomous snakes, but it’s still legal and we can easily get permits. In one state, you can go to Wal-Mart and buy your venomous snake license for like $10 lol. In the same state you can keep native venomous with a hunting license. There are very few, if any, on non-venomous snakes in the vast majority of America. 

Back to my original point, many of you that keep reptiles come on here and bash us Americans for doing the very same thing. You’re hypocrites. You didn’t seem to have anything to say about that, did you? “And the room goes quiet”. *Chirp chirp*


----------



## abnrmal91 (Apr 7, 2011)

Quick question how is it responsible for someone to be able buy a venomous snake licence for $10. That sounds like a great idea all these people who don't know how to look after snakes can get one that can kill them. Great idea.

The only benefit I can see is it will thin the numbers out


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Apr 7, 2011)

> I am completely right about importing reptiles from Australia legally. I have been communicating with one individual, who I will not name, within the last week. He has imported from Australia several times legally and is working on an order right now. He has Australian elapids, Australian monitors, and Australia crocs all imported legally with permits. It can be done. He even told me he wishes Australia was more open to export. It may not necessarily be a loophole, but it isn’t common knowledge either. Most common knowledge isn’t entirely true.



I have to disagree with you again... I've worked within the bureaucracies in this country for over 30 years, and whoever is telling you this stuff is just lying. Private individuals CANNOT import Australian reptiles from Australia under any circumstances, and it has been so for 50 years or more. It can be done for bona fide zoos or scientific reasons, but not for private people, end of story.

You in the States are also coming under much increased pressure with regard to all species regarded as 'dangerous', and this is likely to involve not just venomous snakes, but big constrictors, large monitors and any other animals the fruitloops want to include. There are already regional restrictions on where they can be moved, what states allow them to be moved across their borders.

I absolutely agree with you on the bureucratic bull***** that we have to deal with here - it is pointless and it serves no purpose in conservation at all. And as for those who want to keep exotics here, all the things you mention are here if you want them, but those who do have them simply stay under the radar. There will be an increasing number of your countrymen doing the same thing as the squeeze is applied to keepers in your country too. You'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think it's going to happen in the USA.

Jamie


----------



## Hoyle00cdn (Apr 7, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> You can call me every name in the book to try to offend me, but here is the bottom line. I as an American have the freedom to catch, breed, sell, trade, import, and export reptiles freely. You as Australians don’t. You are jealous and resent the freedoms that Americans have. We have access to almost any reptile we want and you resent that. That is why you make derogatory comments about Americans. I can get all those elapids, it just takes money. The only argument you have is based on conservation which is because you have no other arguments to choose from. Your government makes your decision for you and that’s the control they want over you. They don’t want you to rebel against them and I can see they’ve done a very good job of controlling you. This website is based on captive reptiles rather than a holier than thou conservation mission. If you keep a reptile in a cage for a pet or as a collection and then come on here and bash me for doing the very same thing, than that makes you a hypocrite. If you are so against it, then why are you on here in the first place? If you have ever bought, sold, or traded a reptile than you have no leg to stand on based on what you have all been saying on this thread. So after reading this, go ahead and stray off to another topic because you have nothing better to say. I still love you Australia!


 Not every democratic country lives in hysterical paranoia of their self-elected government. THE END


----------



## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 7, 2011)

I love this canadian dude!


----------



## fugawi (Apr 7, 2011)

Mr Edwards.....I will continue to rationally counter debate rather than poke fun at you although the latter seems way too easy.

Freedom......(probably shouldn't have gone there dude)
We, as Australians have a 236yr history, and in that time our nation has matured into the one you currently see. Our laws and governmental systems are based on English systems which stem back over 1000 yrs and have slowly evolved into the fully tried and tested systems of today. We earned our freedoms in every war. One thing that we are taught is that FREEDOM comes with RESPONSIBILITY. We, as a people, have taken the responsibility for our unique wildlife and stopped the irresponsible, rape and pillage of our natives. If we don't like what our government says or does then we can get rid of them (All aussies must vote...compulsory, so ALL Aussies have their say, again, all Aussies take responsibility).
You, as Americans, have a slightly longer history and in that time you have thrown away all those tried and tested systems. You booted the poms....with a WAR, then fought among yourselves.....with another WAR and finally decided to use a new type of government and write yourselves a new bunch of laws and freedoms. Since then, Americans have the freedom to completely deny responsibility for their actions. You are free to own any animal you want (No matter how dangerous or irresponsible), free to take as many native US animals you want....till extinction, free to get USARK to deny responsibility for the Burmese Python problem (fortunately saved by a freak cold snap), free to carry guns, free to have one of the highest murder rates (haven't put those two together yet have you?), free to cause the global financial crisis, free to accept Aussie banks to bail out US ones, free to kill most of your animals in yearly hunts etc........Golly Mr, I wish I had all your freedoms and the ultimate freedom to deny responsibility.

As far as jealousy.....It is you that covets our animals not vice-versa.

And yes we keep our own natives but under strict laws to save our natives and their natural habitat. Not hypocritical because we also cannot take them from the wild.

I can only hope that one day Americans can start to take responsibility for their actions and also take responsibility for the North American Environment before it is too late.

Australian Customs don't believe their is a Reptile loophole but if there is, it will be shut soon enough.


----------



## KaotikJezta (Apr 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Mr Edwards.....I will continue to rationally counter debate rather than poke fun at you although the latter seems way too easy.
> 
> Freedom......(probably shouldn't have gone there dude)
> We, as Australians have a 236yr history, and in that time our nation has matured into the one you currently see. Our laws and governmental systems are based on English systems which stem back over 1000 yrs and have slowly evolved into the fully tried and tested systems of today. We earned our freedoms in every war. One thing that we are taught is that FREEDOM comes with RESPONSIBILITY. We, as a people, have taken the responsibility for our unique wildlife and stopped the irresponsible, rape and pillage of our natives. If we don't like what our government says or does then we can get rid of them (All aussies must vote...compulsory, so ALL Aussies have their say, again, all Aussies take responsibility).
> ...


You forgot free to take any country and it's resources and stick their noses into any other countries business, and free to not let any one stick their noses into yours. Free to continue nuclear proliferation while free to impose bans on any other country that tries to do it, free to commit war crimes and not be tried for them, yet free to impose your own brand of justice on any other country you perceive has committed war crimes, and the list goes on.


----------



## fugawi (Apr 7, 2011)

I stopped short of saying free to cause the terrorism we have to live with.....thought I was just going on, and on, and on. It seemed to get easier the longer I went on.

How about a new thread of American freedoms


----------



## saximus (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm breaking my earlier rule but this thread is becoming (always was?) pointless and now it's turning into a "my country is better" argument. I think it's safe to say most Australians wouldn't want this to happen and even if we did, it would take a thousand years to change the government policy and another thousand to decide on how much paperwork will be required. In short - it's not going to happen, why are you still asking?


----------



## cement (Apr 7, 2011)

I can think of a few herpers who really wouldn't mind the allowing of export to other countries. Even some sponsers on this very site. If it meant a bigger market place for them to be able to sell their stock.

Lets face it, we are quite willing to accept the breakdown of the law when it comes to importing certain snakes, smuggled in under the radar, bred up and released into the masses.

Personally, after witnessing the last couple of years of snake "hobby" I feel fairly confident to say that there would be dozens if not hundreds of people who would not hesitate to jump on the exportation of captive bred reptiles to overseas countries markets.

It may well never happen, but don't kid yourselves that it wouldn't have support.

We don't have to sell to annoying Americans, there's the French, the English the Canadians...

I sent a care guide for diamonds to a Brazilian last year as he was trying to breed them and they were going for 2.5k where he is. On another note I received a pm on another site from a German who wanted me to tell him where he might be able to find diamonds and other species around here. I told him politely to F off, and he replied saying that he was also heading north to catch crocs! So your joke earlier on is very relevant.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 7, 2011)

cement said:


> On another note I received a pm on another site from a German who wanted me to tell him where he might be able to find diamonds and other species around here. I told him politely to F off, and he replied saying that he was also heading north to catch crocs!



Send him up here I can put him onto a good spot. Those 5-7 metre ones are really easy to catch. Tell him to buy one way ticket .......


----------



## Mace699 (Apr 7, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> You can call me every name in the book to try to offend me, but here is the bottom line. I as an American have the freedom to catch, breed, sell, trade, import, and export reptiles freely. You as Australians don’t. You are jealous and resent the freedoms that Americans have. We have access to almost any reptile we want and you resent that. That is why you make derogatory comments about Americans. I can get all those elapids, it just takes money. The only argument you have is based on conservation which is because you have no other arguments to choose from. Your government makes your decision for you and that’s the control they want over you. They don’t want you to rebel against them and I can see they’ve done a very good job of controlling you. This website is based on captive reptiles rather than a holier than thou conservation mission. If you keep a reptile in a cage for a pet or as a collection and then come on here and bash me for doing the very same thing, than that makes you a hypocrite. If you are so against it, then why are you on here in the first place? If you have ever bought, sold, or traded a reptile than you have no leg to stand on based on what you have all been saying on this thread. So after reading this, go ahead and stray off to another topic because you have nothing better to say. I still love you Australia!


 
I guess at the end of the day mate you've come on to an Aussie for asking Aussies for their opinion once its been given to you you've gone and had a temper tantrum because we havent agreed with you. Ranting and raving your "I'm American, I'm American" high and mighty Better than all of us attitude isn't going to change anyones opinions and really isn't shedding a positive light on your fellow country men or country. yes you can get all sorts of cool herps over there, no ones arguing the fact. the main reasons we don't allow it have already been stated so i wont rehash over it. it's the age old saying mothers have used for years " you get what your given and you thank god you've got it." would i love to be able to keep a chameleon or an iguana or similiar hell yeah but what if they escaped and started competing with natives for territory and so on and so forth. the last thing i want is our natives being wiped out all because some irresponsible owners have let there pets escape and killed off the natives.


----------



## silverback (Apr 7, 2011)

fugawi said:


> We, as Australians have a 236yr history, .....


 i bet americans know their history better ( and probably their maths )


fugawi said:


> We, as a people, have taken the responsibility for our unique wildlife and stopped the irresponsible, rape and pillage of our natives.


 yeah, right.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 7, 2011)

This thread amazes me. One person can spin everybody else around a "mission impossible" and the argument (about nothing really) keeps on going for days and days. A cold shower costs nothing ... let it go. Why are you giving him the time of a day?


----------



## Dannyboi (Apr 7, 2011)

silverback said:


> i bet americans know their history better ( and probably their maths )
> yeah, right.


 Oh yeah and thats why they have acts like the "No Child left behind" Come on America is falling behind with its education. Back on Topic. If we were to open the borders there would more than likely be a backlash on the keepers here. We would need permits for animals that at this stage are exempt. We would need to prove the lineage of an animal that is highly sought after possible DNA if we were to keep them. Common species becomming scarce because there is more money in selling it overseas. And why? So some American can buy them breed them make a quick buck and then there would be no market for us to sell them. Face it you can keep more than us as far as Australian natives as it is and with very little restriction. Why do you care about what we do? Oh so you can save some money and some of the harder to find Australian reptiles will be cheaper for you? Get real. Stop arguing your invalid point and just do what has been done in the past.

Waterrat its the internet. What did you expect?


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Apr 7, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> This thread amazes me. One person can spin everybody else around a "mission impossible" and the argument (about nothing really) keeps on going for days and days. A cold shower costs nothing ... let it go. Why are you giving him the time of a day?



Exactly Michael.
Some of us realised this from the very first post ? 
But for some reason this thread has a life of its own.....


----------



## fugawi (Apr 7, 2011)

OOps too much caffeine.....1 yr out

Damn.... why do I have 1776 in my brain.....1788....duh


----------



## Hoyle00cdn (Apr 7, 2011)

There's a big difference between rights and privileges. Owning every Australian snake is a privilege, not a right, and certainly not one that should trump the right for a country to regulate their sovereign habitats.



Jungle_Freak said:


> Exactly Michael.
> Some of us realised this from the very first post ?
> But for some reason this thread has a life of its own.....


 I for one have learned a lot about Australian animal laws in this thread.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 8, 2011)

There is a reason why so many people from other countries move to the United States. It's because we are a free country. People want that life for their family. People risk their lives by starving themselves, dehydrating themselves, dodging bullets, etc. just to get here to have the freedoms of Americans. There is a reason little village kids flock to American soldiers when they go to their countries. They know what America stands for: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can talk smack on the government all you want, but not every American agrees with what the government portrays to the distorted news and media. We have access to just about any kind of animal we want here and can freely own it with little to no restrictions. That is what America is all about. We have the freedom to do that. Many other countries couldn't even dream of that. There are more tigers in America than there are in the wild anywhere in the world. We have the freedom to breed tigers if we choose. 

Back to my original point which no one has replied to. You are all hypocrites and can't even fess up to it. You are bashing me for advocating the keeping of reptiles, breeding reptiles, selling reptiles, importing reptiles, and doing anything else with reptiles when you are screaming bloody murder for conservation while at the very same time you probably have a collection of your own reptiles sitting at home. The Wyndham Crocodile Farm in Kimberly, yea that’s conservation for you. Let's go out and kill as many crocodiles as we can to make belts, shoes, wallets, and other accessories just so we can export it and make money. That says a lot for your so called Australian wildlife conservation efforts. I'm not against that at all and believe that you should have that freedom, but I'm sure you can't stand it, unless you really don't give a darn about conservation. I think that's just a sorry excuse for being jealous that an American has come on your forum to speak his mind about the freedoms that we enjoy here in the States. 

You can speak all you want about your experience with the government there, but that doesn’t mean someone else hasn’t had a different experience here. This guy that I know went through two years of bullshit before he could get his permits to import reptiles and he finally got it and I know it eats you up inside that an American has gotten animals out of Australia because it makes you feel like a sorry old Yank has gotten over on ya. If you disagree with breeding and selling Australian reptiles, then that’s fine, we already have most of them anyways lol.


----------



## Snakeluvver2 (Apr 8, 2011)

You're an idiot.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 8, 2011)

Lets hope this was your last word.


----------



## Ozzie Python (Apr 8, 2011)

you keep telling us about your mate that can export reptiles overseas. why not give us his name? it is all legit so there shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## KaotikJezta (Apr 8, 2011)

The they always pull the everyone wants to move here card, lol


----------



## fugawi (Apr 8, 2011)

But Michael....it's so much fun winding him up


----------



## Pythoninfinite (Apr 8, 2011)

> We have the freedom to breed tigers if we choose.



Whew! now that's something to be proud of... no wonder they're going extinct in the wild - they're all in America!!!

Not going to get caught up in the Yank bashing thing, but this guy is seriously deluded, even a bit hysterical! America is not the 'free for all' he suggests it is. Maybe he's been living under a rock somewhere and doesn't realise that the 21st century is catching up with everyone, even in America. Would HAVE to be a Republican... even maybe Tea Party...

If you want to go to a country where you die if you can't afford health care, go to the good ol' US of A!

Jamie


----------



## slim6y (Apr 8, 2011)

Sorry - was this the thread where someone was asking about some spotteds breeding this year... I can get you in touch with a few guys here - they've got some nice ones.


----------



## Elapidae1 (Apr 8, 2011)

Think a little research in to crocodile products and conservation is in order.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 8, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> There is a reason why so many people from other countries move to the United States. It's because we are a free country. People want that life for their family. People risk their lives by starving themselves, dehydrating themselves, dodging bullets, etc. just to get here to have the freedoms of Americans. There is a reason little village kids flock to American soldiers when they go to their countries. They know what America stands for: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can talk smack on the government all you want, but not every American agrees with what the government portrays to the distorted news and media. We have access to just about any kind of animal we want here and can freely own it with little to no restrictions. That is what America is all about. We have the freedom to do that. Many other countries couldn't even dream of that. There are more tigers in America than there are in the wild anywhere in the world. We have the freedom to breed tigers if we choose.
> 
> Back to my original point which no one has replied to. You are all hypocrites and can't even fess up to it. You are bashing me for advocating the keeping of reptiles, breeding reptiles, selling reptiles, importing reptiles, and doing anything else with reptiles when you are screaming bloody murder for conservation while at the very same time you probably have a collection of your own reptiles sitting at home. The Wyndham Crocodile Farm in Kimberly, yea that’s conservation for you. Let's go out and kill as many crocodiles as we can to make belts, shoes, wallets, and other accessories just so we can export it and make money. That says a lot for your so called Australian wildlife conservation efforts. I'm not against that at all and believe that you should have that freedom, but I'm sure you can't stand it, unless you really don't give a darn about conservation. I think that's just a sorry excuse for being jealous that an American has come on your forum to speak his mind about the freedoms that we enjoy here in the States.
> 
> You can speak all you want about your experience with the government there, but that doesn’t mean someone else hasn’t had a different experience here. This guy that I know went through two years of bullshit before he could get his permits to import reptiles and he finally got it and I know it eats you up inside that an American has gotten animals out of Australia because it makes you feel like a sorry old Yank has gotten over on ya. If you disagree with breeding and selling Australian reptiles, then that’s fine, we already have most of them anyways lol.


 
OMG your so persistant...

Let's break it down for you.

*NO* you can not get our animals there's no legal way to do it if there is your friend wouldn't be the only one that knows about it... Heck if it can be done you would have done it yourself instead of throwing tantrums.

*NO *we are not jealous, your the one that's hell bent on trying to get Australian animals we want nothing from you...

*NO* you are not free and it's your government that's brain washed you to thinking that you are.. capitalism does not equal freedom infact it makes you a slave to the corporate whims...

*NO *villagers don't like your soldiers they just happen to carry bigger guns so best to get them on side...

*NO* we don't want to move over there we're quite happy where we are afterall we can get Australian species..

*NO* we are not hypocrites as we don't disagree with keeping reptiles as we're reptile keepers ourselves, we disagree with YOU keeping ours though through wildlife exploitation

*No* we are not the ones annoyed at the freedoms you "enjoy" as we want no part of it...

What really ticks you off and prompted you to throw this tantrum is you did not get the support for your basically capitalist endevour through the exploitation of wildlife. That and this rather long list....

Acanthophis antarcticus
Acanthophis praelongus
Acanthophis pyrrhus
Austrelaps labialis
Austrelaps ramsayi
Austrelaps superbus
Cacophis churchilli
Cacophis harriettae
Cacophis krefftii
Cacophis squamulosus
Demansia atra
Demansia calodera
Demansia olivacea
Demansia papuensis
Demansia psammmophis
Demansia reticulata
Demansia simplex
Demansia torquata
Denisonia devisii
Denisonia maculata
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) coronata
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) coronoides
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) mastersi
Drysdalia (Elapognaphus) rhodogaster
Echiopsis atriceps
Echiopsis curta
Elapognathus minor
Furina diadema
Furina ornata
Glyphodon barnardi
Glyphodon dunmalli
Glyphodon tristis
Hemiaspis damelii
Hemiaspis signata
Hoplocephala bitorquata
Hoplocephala bungaroides
Hoplocephala stephensi
Notechis ater ater
Notechis ater humphreysi
Notechis ater niger
Notechis ater serventyi
Notechis scutatus occidentalis
Notechis scutatus scutatus
Oxyuranus microlepidotus
Oxyuranus scutellatus
Oxyuranus temporalis
Pseudechis australis
Pseudechis butleri
Pseudechis colletti
Pseudechis guttatus
Pseudechis pailsei
Pseudechis porphyriacus
Pseudonaja affinis
Pseudonaja guttata
Pseudonaja inframacula
Pseudonaja ingrami
Pseudonaja modesta
Pseudonaja nuchalis
Pseudonaja textilis
Rhinoplocephalus bicolor
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis) boschmai
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis) nigrescens
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis)nigrostriatus
Rhinoplocephalus nullabor
Rhinoplocephalus (Cryptophis) pallidiceps
Simoselaps anomalus
Simoselaps approximans
Simoselaps australis
Simoselaps bertholdi
Simoselaps bimaculata
Simoselaps calonotus
Simoselaps fasciolata
Simoselaps incinctus
Simoselaps littoralis
Simoselaps minima
Simoselaps semifasciata
Simoselaps roperi
Simoselaps semifasciatus
Simoselaps warro
Simoselaps woodjonesii
Suta (Denisonia) fasciata
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) flagellum
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) gouldii
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) monachus
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) nigriceps
Suta (Denisonia) ordensis
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) punctata
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) spectabilis
Suta (Rhinoplocephalus) dwyeri
Suta (Denisonia) suta
Tropidechis carinatus
Vermicella annulata
Vermicella multifasciata 

Man that's a long list that impedes on your freedom don't it and that just ticks you right off being not free to have these..... Maybe you can lobby your government to invade Australia and take them by force for you, you guys are good at that and we will run up to your soldiers with inland taipans in hand you know like village kids.

Let the wind up dance continue......


----------



## Hoyle00cdn (Apr 8, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> There is a reason why so many people from other countries move to the United States. It's because we are a free country. People want that life for their family. People risk their lives by starving themselves, dehydrating themselves, dodging bullets, etc. just to get here to have the freedoms of Americans. There is a reason little village kids flock to American soldiers when they go to their countries. They know what America stands for: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can talk smack on the government all you want, but not every American agrees with what the government portrays to the distorted news and media. We have access to just about any kind of animal we want here and can freely own it with little to no restrictions. That is what America is all about. We have the freedom to do that. Many other countries couldn't even dream of that. There are more tigers in America than there are in the wild anywhere in the world. We have the freedom to breed tigers if we choose.


.

Actually it's because America has more lax immigration laws compared to a lot of other western nations. The United States doesn't rank too high in the world when it comes to basic standard of living, so I think it's a bit presumptuous to claim America as the "first-choice" refuge for the greater migration population in the world. It's only been in the last year (2010) that the United States actually broke the top 5 in the Human Development Index (HDI) report. Prior to that you guys have generally ranked 10th-15th. The highest ranked standard of living has typically been dominated by Norway and Canada.

Little village kids flock to any soldier liberating them from violence, famine, and pillage. It has little to do with the flag on their shoulder. Canadian, Australian, and British soldiers get the same responses.

"life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" was taken almost verbatim from British philosopher John Locke's 2nd Treaties of Government. These virtues are far from American property, nor do they signify a contrast from other Western nations who carry similar democratic values.

Your evaluation of democracy also seems a little polarized. There's more to a successful democracy than the mere right to "sue and be sued"; there's also the right or duty to "rule and be ruled". The former Roman, the latter Greek. When you spend too much time worrying about how you've been wronged and what you're entitled too, you neglect the responsibilities of a true citizen.

You're having a hard time grasping the idea that not every nation of citizens prioritize their democratic rights high above their democratic duties.




> Back to my original point which no one has replied to. You are all hypocrites and can't even fess up to it. You are bashing me for advocating the keeping of reptiles, breeding reptiles, selling reptiles, importing reptiles, and doing anything else with reptiles when you are screaming bloody murder for conservation while at the very same time you probably have a collection of your own reptiles sitting at home. The Wyndham Crocodile Farm in Kimberly, yea that’s conservation for you. Let's go out and kill as many crocodiles as we can to make belts, shoes, wallets, and other accessories just so we can export it and make money. That says a lot for your so called Australian wildlife conservation efforts. I'm not against that at all and believe that you should have that freedom, but I'm sure you can't stand it, unless you really don't give a darn about conservation. I think that's just a sorry excuse for being jealous that an American has come on your forum to speak his mind about the freedoms that we enjoy here in the States.



Actually it sounds like you're just pissy because you can't easily get your hands on Aussie reptiles. To dumb it down a bit, this is all the conversation has been so far.

*You:* I love Aussie snakes, but they are so hard to get because of your export laws. You should changed them to be more open.
*Australians:* Naw we're okay, we actually like those laws.
*You:* But they restrict you on what you can do!
*Australians:* Yea we know, but we like the benefits toos.
*You:* But it's not the American way.
*Australians:* We're not Americans.
*You:* But I want your snakes!!!!!:x
 



> You can speak all you want about your experience with the government there, but that doesn’t mean someone else hasn’t had a different experience here. This guy that I know went through two years of bullshit before he could get his permits to import reptiles and he finally got it and I know it eats you up inside that an American has gotten animals out of Australia because it makes you feel like a sorry old Yank has gotten over on ya. If you disagree with breeding and selling Australian reptiles, then that’s fine, we already have most of them anyways lol.


I highly doubt they are upset about a few Australian reptiles getting illegally smuggled every now and they. They seem more concerned or annoyed having a non-Australian trying to tell them how they SHOULD run their country.


----------



## junglepython2 (Apr 8, 2011)

I thought mmafan was the biggest tool in the USA, I was wrong...


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Apr 8, 2011)

hoyle00cdn said:


> .
> 
> Actually it's because america has more lax immigration laws compared to a lot of other western nations. The united states doesn't rank too high in the world when it comes to basic standard of living, so i think it's a bit presumptuous to claim america as the "first-choice" refuge for the greater migration population in the world. It's only been in the last year (2010) that the united states actually broke the top 5 in the human development index (hdi) report. Prior to that you guys have generally ranked 10th-15th. The highest ranked standard of living has typically been dominated by norway and canada.
> 
> ...



best post of the thread ,,,,,


----------



## slim6y (Apr 8, 2011)

junglepython2 said:


> I thought mmafan was the biggest tool in the USA, I was wrong...


 
I've almost begun liking mmafan...


----------



## Jungle_Freak (Apr 8, 2011)

Hoyle00cdn said:


> There's a big difference between rights and privileges. Owning every Australian snake is a privilege, not a right, and certainly not one that should trump the right for a country to regulate their sovereign habitats.
> 
> 
> I for one have learned a lot about Australian animal laws in this thread.


 
Mate , im happy you learn something .
Thats why we all use the internet .


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 8, 2011)

We can import Australian reptiles all day long from breeders all over the world. Reptiles have been smuggled out of Australia for the private reptile trade for the last fifty years or more. One of the old curators from the Australian Reptile Park used to ship reptiles illegally to the United States for reptiles that he wanted. Zoos are a lot more corrupt than you think. Curators would breed something that they got under strict circumstances from Australia for example and record it as fewer than what they produced and sell the rest as if they never existed. Anything related to captive reptiles has something to do with money and there is some element of greed behind making money and having the only one of a certain species. They're reptiles for crying out loud. It's not like we're dealing with endangered tigers. Speaking of which, there are more tigers in the United States because we have the freedom to breed them. Habitat loss is the real reason why animals become extinct. How could an animal become endangered or extinct because they are being re-created in captivity? That makes no sense. I'm not a name dropper so I am not going to mention any names as far as Americans importing reptiles from Australia. All I can say is that it took him two years to get his permits and that he keeps mainly Australian elapids. You might be mad because you don't know everything, but get over it.


----------



## Waterrat (Apr 8, 2011)

The *general rule 2 - intolerance of other user* has been violated several times in this thread. I am not telling the mods what to do, I've just been observant.


----------



## slim6y (Apr 8, 2011)

But can you import reptiles from breeders in Australia? Isn't that the reason this thread started?

I think the answer is plain and simply 'no'.

End of story.


----------



## dpedwards08 (Apr 8, 2011)

The words of Bob Irwin. 
"The Australian government and Queensland government are pathetic. And that's about the nicest thing I can say". 
"Our government doesn't understand the natural world".
"We destroy thousands of kangaroos every year".
"...burry wombats alive".
"...starve the frasier island dingos".
"...destroy dugongs and turtles in a very cruel manner".
"These practices are condoned by the government". 
"We've lost our national pride".
"I'm very disappointed in the destruction of our animals". 
"We have organized extinctions of koalas in some states". 
"...cut the heads off of joey kangaroos". 
"When turtles are killed, they are put on their backs, put in the direct sun, flippers cut off while turtle is still alive. This goes on until it dies". 
"The authorities have been informed about the black market trade in turtle meat and have done nothing about this". 
If you don't believe me, listen to it yourself. URBANJUNGLESRADIO.COM
And you call yourselves the leader in wildlife conservation throughout the world? Give me a (bleep-ing) break! You ought to be ashmed of yourselves, trying to come on here and bash an American who actually appreciates your wildlife enough to want to re-create those very species in captivity. I'm not on here wanting to kill Australian wildlife and eliminate them for good. Immitation is the purest form of flattery. If all of us on here had a meeting with Bob Irwin, who is one of Australia's best conservationists, I would bet money that he would agree that habitat destruction is a hell of a lot more threatening than collecting wildlife because he has collected reptiles himself. For example, common brown snakes.


----------



## Red-Ink (Apr 8, 2011)

dpedwards08 said:


> We can import Australian reptiles all day long from breeders all over the world. Reptiles have been smuggled out of Australia for the private reptile trade for the last fifty years or more. One of the old curators from the Australian Reptile Park used to ship reptiles illegally to the United States for reptiles that he wanted. Zoos are a lot more corrupt than you think. Curators would breed something that they got under strict circumstances from Australia for example and record it as fewer than what they produced and sell the rest as if they never existed. Anything related to captive reptiles has something to do with money and there is some element of greed behind making money and having the only one of a certain species. They're reptiles for crying out loud. It's not like we're dealing with endangered tigers. Speaking of which, there are more tigers in the United States because we have the freedom to breed them. Habitat loss is the real reason why animals become extinct. How could an animal become endangered or extinct because they are being re-created in captivity? That makes no sense. I'm not a name dropper so I am not going to mention any names as far as Americans importing reptiles from Australia. All I can say is that it took him two years to get his permits and that he keeps mainly Australian elapids. You might be mad because you don't know everything, but get over it.


 
If that was the case.... alright let's say WE BELIEVE YOU... here's a plain simple solution GET THEM FROM HIM... The fact that you haven't gotten them from him or a "corrupt" zoo but instead carrying on on the forum means you can't. AGAIN.... GET THE REPTILES YOU WANT FROM HIM IF HE HAS THEM... simple is it really that hard to understand? If you have access to them why are you asking us to export them???


----------

