# The gloves are OFF!



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 11, 2021)

Hi all, it's been a while since I've been active on here but I've been busy behind the scenes working to get this ridiculous new policy that was introduced on August 22 of 2020 overturned. This letter was just yesterday sent to both the Federal ministers in the NSW and QLD Governments, the NPWS, PALM, DEHP, it was also sent to channel 2, 7 ,9, A current Affair, Stateline, Four Corners, The Courier Mail, The Daily Telegraph, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Toowoomba Chronicle... It was also sent internationally to the IUCN Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle Specialist group, Turtle Conservancy, Turtle Survival Alliance, Global Wildlife Conservation, Wildlife Conservation Society, Chelonian Research Foundation, Turtle Conservation Fund AND Conservation International.

Less than 12 hours after this letter was sent, both Myself and Marc Dorse were raided by the QLD DES. So I can assure you this is having MAXIMUM impact as the ranger who visited me said this has kicked over a hornet's nest and opened up a whole can of worms that he personally wants no part of.

If you'd like some background music while reading this letter, I suggest BACK IN BLACK by ACDC! Enjoy.


----------



## Herpetology (Feb 11, 2021)




----------



## Shaggers89 (Feb 12, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hi all, it's been a while since I've been active on here but I've been busy behind the scenes working to get this ridiculous new policy that was introduced on August 22 of 2020 overturned. This letter was just yesterday sent to both the Federal ministers in the NSW and QLD Governments, the NPWS, PALM, DEHP, it was also sent to channel 2, 7 ,9, A current Affair, Stateline, Four Corners, The Courier Mail, The Daily Telegraph, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Toowoomba Chronicle... It was also sent internationally to the IUCN Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle Specialist group, Turtle Conservancy, Turtle Survival Alliance, Global Wildlife Conservation, Wildlife Conservation Society, Chelonian Research Foundation, Turtle Conservation Fund AND Conservation International.
> 
> Less than 12 hours after this letter was sent, both Myself and Marc Dorse were raided by the QLD DES. So I can assure you this is having MAXIMUM impact as the ranger who visited me said this has kicked over a hornet's nest and opened up a whole can of worms that he personally wants no part of.
> 
> If you'd like some background music while reading this letter, I suggest BACK IN BLACK by ACDC! Enjoy.


Well written I seriously look forward to what happens in the future surronding this bullshit law.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 12, 2021)

Shaggers89 said:


> Well written I seriously look forward to what happens in the future surronding this bullshit law.


The 2 rangers that visited Marc and I basically told us "we knew this was going to happen, that letter has created a real hornet's nest in the department". He then went on to say that "you need to read between the lines here... you will never be given a directive from the department to destroy eggs or hatchlings especially considering what you and Marc have done".... so at this point (early days) there's a lot of damage control going on at QLD DES however it still leaves the question... do I get persecuted for not abiding by a new QLD wildlife policy and for illegally breeding an endangered species or do I follow the new QLD law and instead be persecuted for knowingly destroying an IUCN RED-LISTED endangered species...


----------



## Shaggers89 (Feb 12, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> The 2 rangers that visited Marc and I basically told us "we knew this was going to happen, that letter has created a real hornet's nest in the department". He then went on to say that "you need to read between the lines here... you will never be given a directive from the department to destroy eggs or hatchlings especially considering what you and Marc have done".... so at this point (early days) there's a lot of damage control going on at QLD DES however it still leaves the question... do I get persecuted for not abiding by a new QLD wildlife policy and for illegally breeding an endangered species or do I follow the new QLD law and instead be persecuted for knowingly destroying an IUCN RED-LISTED endangered species...


exactly the trainwreck has only just begun.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 12, 2021)

Shaggers89 said:


> exactly the trainwreck has only just begun.


Yep... I have now been advised to seek damages in regards to this new policy against A. The senior policy advisor that has instructed me to freeze the eggs of an IUCN endangered species and B. The QLD DES for passing such a law claiming that M/W purvisi did not present on licence in the state of QLD when they know full well that they do. Now no matter what I do I will be doing something "illegal."


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 12, 2021)

My phone wouldn't let me open your attachment. Could have just cut and pasted it 

Good luck fighting the good fight anyway.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 12, 2021)

My apologies @Sdaji - for your convenience.... 

9 February 2021

To the Hon. Sussan Ley MP, Australian Minister for the Environment, the Hon. Matt Kean MP, NSW Minister for Energy and Environment and the HON. Meaghan Scanlon MP, QLD Minister for the Environment and the Great Barrier Reef and Minister for Science and Youth Affairs. My name is Craig Latta and I have been working with and researching Australian Freshwater Turtles for over 45 years. I have given talks and presentations on conservation and husbandry of freshwater turtles in many states of Australia and helped institutions and Veterinarians all around Australia and the U.S.A with husbandry and breeding information. I have also volunteered for the QLD DEHP to assist with the QLD 'freshwater turtle project' and was employed on a freshwater turtle task to work with the QLD Government and assist with freshwater turtle data collection in Central QLD, directed by Dr. Colin Limpus. I was granted permission by Dr. Limpus to release my captive bred, Mary River turtles (Elusor macrurus) and I had the pleasure and honour of helping to increase numbers of this very unique turtle in the wild, and become the first licensed freshwater turtle private keeper in Australia to release a large number of endangered, captive bred turtles into their natural habitat in the name of conservation. I did this without any financial assistance. I was also employed for the ‘turtle catch, data collection and release’ to collect population numbers of the Mary River turtle, White-throated snapping turtle, Mary River Cod, QLD Lungfish and Platypus for the proposed Mary River Mega Dam at Traveston, QLD. If the construction had gone ahead, it would have been built right in the middle of the best nesting habitat and best hatchling habitat for the species, where large numbers of juvenile Mary River turtles were located and successful recruitment (where ageing and dying individuals are replaced by younger breeding adults) of the species was proven. I also started two not-for-profit freshwater turtle charities, AFTCRA Inc., an Australian Freshwater Turtle Conservation and Research Association and AFT, Australian Freshwater Turtles which I ran for over 17 years until an earlier childhood accident prevented me from be able to continue running them. What I am writing to you about is something that has me so perplexed and angered that I feel it is necessary to bring it to your attention! In 1999, 2005, 2007 and 2011 I spent many weeks snorkelling in the Manning River in NSW, monitoring the population of the now endangered Purvis’ Turtle/Manning River Turtle Myuchelys (AKA Wollumbinia) purvisi. In 2007 I began to notice the populations were decreasing and returned in 2011 to find none of the large populations in areas where they were once abundant. I contacted the Wingham Chronicle to raise awareness and in February 2011 the article came out. It was my hope that locals would act quickly to rally around this disappearing species. At this point in time I was living in QLD and was spending most of my time devoted to the endangered Mary River turtle. It took 5 years before the Manning River turtle was included on the IUCN Red list as an endangered species and even longer for conservation initiatives to commence, however it now appears that NSW and QLD state government wildlife authorities have gotten it all wrong! I am mostly concerned that in 2021, ridiculous, antiquated laws in QLD and NSW will be introduced that are what I regard as the worst anti-conservation laws ever concievable! Authorities in NSW and QLD will force licensed reptile keepers, that already keep M.purvisi and are successfully breeding them in captivity, from being able to continue breeding them and have told keepers that they must freeze the eggs of this endangered species! Can you imagine the public outrage once this news reaches the Australian and International media, especially when comparing it with if the same laws were to be applied to Endangered Australian Quolls or Bilbies? There is absolutely NO logic to this backwards thinking and senseless law! Perhaps if the NSW and QLD State wildlife authorities were to read a book called ‘Turtle Conservation’ Edited by Michael W. Klemens then they would understand that it is essential to allow as many reptile keepers as posible to breed this species in captivity to create a ‘safety net’ assurance colony and drop these ridiculous changes to the law! The Australian Reptile Park (ARP), Gosford NSW have been given an $850,000 Government grant as well as $120,000 in crowdfunding to breed this species in captivity. All this institution has managed to do is the harvesting from the wild and hatching of 2 wild laid clutches of M.purvisi and the removal of a gravid adult female M.purvisi from the wild and 12 months later, the ARP is still unable to produce any captive bred hatchling M.purvisi of its own. Re: The endangered Manning River turtle farcical law changes in NSW and QLD
There are currently licensed private keepers already successfully breeding this endangered species in captivity that receive absolutely no financial funding of any kind, including Marc Dorse of Toowoomba QLD, who has consecutively successfully bred clutches of M.purvisi from egg laying in 2014,and subsequent hatching in early 2015 and every year since. Kevin McKay, also of Toowoomba,QLD has successfully bred clutches of M.purvisi hatchlings with egg laying in 2015 and hatching in 2016 and every year since then.. I have spoken with both of these licensed keepers/breeders of this endangered species and both mentioned that they would gladly work with the state authorities and hand over their captive bred Purvis’ for a conservation initiative after ‘head starting’ the turtles to 1-2 years of age, which is recommended to get them past the most vulnerable stage in their lives, where over 90% fall prey to predators. This would ensure the species would remain viable for generations of people to enjoy well into the future! As World renowned freshwater turtle scientist and friend Dr. Gerald Kuchling Ph.D. who is in charge of the Western Swamp turtle breeding program in Western Australia once said to me, “If you give half of a breeding group of turtles to institutions and the other half to private keepers, it will be the private keepers who will successfully breed them”. How can any State or Federal Government department overide the protection provided to a CITES-listed Endangered species? Please, please do the right thing and abolish this absurd new law in QLD and NSW and let common sense prevail.

Kind regards, Craig Latta


----------



## Lace_monitor (Feb 14, 2021)

Good luck


----------



## Stromatolite (Feb 15, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> My apologies @Sdaji - for your convenience....
> 
> 9 February 2021
> 
> ...


Since when was it listed on CITES? Does Craig not understand what CITES was established for? His argument is a specious one.


----------



## JBeatts (Feb 16, 2021)

Good luck! It is ridiculous what they are trying to do!


----------



## Ajar5 (Feb 16, 2021)

Wow the government never surprises me. I really hope there's a positive outcome for the species and I take my hat off to you for all your efforts and dedication. Their proposed laws sound very illogical and unethical. What harm is and could keeping and breeding an endangered species ever going to do I ask? Good luck


----------



## hamishh34 (Feb 16, 2021)

Ajar5 said:


> Wow the government never surprises me. I really hope there's a positive outcome for the species and I take my hat off to you for all your efforts and dedication. Their proposed laws sound very illogical and unethical. What harm is and could keeping and breeding an endangered species ever going to do I ask? Good luck


Might hurt the funding of some large and well connected institutions  The fact they're donated and granted very large sums of cash in last 2 years with no success and QLD keepers are having great success without any financial assistance is rubbing them the wrong way hehe.


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Feb 16, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> The 2 rangers that visited Marc and I basically told us "we knew this was going to happen, that letter has created a real hornet's nest in the department". He then went on to say that "you need to read between the lines here... you will never be given a directive from the department to destroy eggs or hatchlings especially considering what you and Marc have done".... so at this point (early days) there's a lot of damage control going on at QLD DES however it still leaves the question... do I get persecuted for not abiding by a new QLD wildlife policy and for illegally breeding an endangered species or do I follow the new QLD law and instead be persecuted for knowingly destroying an IUCN RED-LISTED endangered species...


What on earth justifies them telling you to knock an endangered species. I mean, HELLO! Aren't we supposed to be helping endangered species? Why on earth would we destroy them?! Whoever decided to enforce this law is evil, sick and demented! I don't mean to offend the QLD DES, no wait actually I do. What kind of person decides that it's a good idea to knock off an endangered species, particularly one as beautiful as _Purvisi?_
You know, this whole thing remind me of a movie scene that I watched not long ago...


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 16, 2021)

Marc and I have been contacted by sky news and 60 minutes... I sent 3 emails to PALM and DES 2 days ago demanding answers in writing as to what I'm supposed to do with viable clutches of purvisi eggs for the next however many decades and no one is willing to stand by the policy they've introduced now, it is way too controversial, the senior policy officer for DES contacted me today and has palmed my dilemma off to QLD national parks... this is the reply I got to my question regarding what I'm legally obligated to do with purvisi eggs post 2022 under the new QLD policy...

"Hi Kevin,
Thank you for your email.

I have directed your enquiry to Wildlife Management within the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service, as the regulation of native animal keeping in Queensland is delegated to that area. You will receive a response from the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service.

Kind Regards,
Caitlin"

in other words, you're completely incompetent and want to distance yourself from the **** show you've created... I better get answers before Alan Jones starts asking questions because that's the next step!
[automerge]1613472162[/automerge]


hamishh34 said:


> Might hurt the funding of some large and well connected institutions  The fact they're donated and granted very large sums of cash in last 2 years with no success and QLD keepers are having great success without any financial assistance is rubbing them the wrong way





hamishh34 said:


> Might hurt the funding of some large and well connected institutions  The fact they're donated and granted very large sums of cash in last 2 years with no success and QLD keepers are having great success without any financial assistance is rubbing them the wrong way hehe.


Hit the nail on the head my fellow purvisi keeping friend! Yes it would be awkward fronting TV cameras and explaining how for $970,000 worth of handouts you've achieved nothing when an amateur hobbyist with a day job knocks out hatchies every year and has the current Australian record for purvisi hatch rate / survival of 96.2% and his efforts cost the Australian government and tax payers NOTHING. Money doesn't buy knowledge nor does it buy a lifetime of experience. Those clowns do not understand purvisi's ecology and it's evident in their husbandry techniques and was reflected this season just ended after Dr Ricky Spencer from Western Sydney Uni visited the ARP to see how many purvisi eggs/hatchies the project has yielded... I can imagine the look on his face when he got told 0/0. He called Marc wanting our help... Marc Dorse got 16/11 and I got 14/12 but hey wtf do we know??

So when I'm being forced to freeze purvisi eggs in the name of "conservation", at least the ARP can save face.

Pathetic.

In other news, I have added another QLD keeper to the list of those licensed and holding purvisi this afternoon at 4:30pm so the number of people legally holding them in captivity is growing.


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 16, 2021)

I haven't always agreed with you on everything, but I admire and congratulate you in regard to what you're doing here. It's great to see your passion being put to use in opposing some idiotic rules. It's inspiring to see your determination in action. Good on you.


----------



## Lace_monitor (Feb 16, 2021)

I was at the reptile park the other day the new ponds look nice but it’s not about keeping the it’s about breeding the turtles


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 16, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> I haven't always agreed with you on everything, but I admire and congratulate you in regard to what you're doing here. It's great to see your passion being put to use in opposing some idiotic rules. It's inspiring to see your determination in action. Good on you.


Thanks John. The most inspiring thing this week was an email from John Cann saying not to give up. There's some pretty big names in my corner so the pot is being stirred good and proper. At the end of the day if no one from the dept is prepared to stand by their policy, how do they expect it to be enforced? I started reaching out to PALM and DES in June last year... 6 months on, still no answers... I have 18 months left until I'm bound by the conditions of the new policy... and no one wants to put their hand up and answer 1 single question I've been asking... well someone is going to have to answer it because it's not going to magically go away.
[automerge]1613473995[/automerge]


Lace_monitor said:


> I was at the reptile park the other day the new ponds look nice but it’s not about keeping the it’s about breeding the turtles


The ARP has made several grand errors with their purvisi breeding program and 1 huge catastrophic error... neither of which I'll divulge here as I will not give them anything. They are fooling the public, harvested a few wild nests and hatched the eggs at ARP, Collected a gravid female and hatched her eggs... and with some fancy journalism made it look like they'd bred them... lol 12 months on from the harvest they've nothing to show... they should stick to what they do best... milking funnel-webs and leave the turtles alone.


----------



## Lace_monitor (Feb 16, 2021)

The main pond


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 16, 2021)

Lace_monitor said:


> The main pond


That's a great pond.... For ELN's.


----------



## Herpetology (Feb 16, 2021)

imagine what you could do for the species with a $100k funding and support 
[automerge]1613475239[/automerge]


Lace_monitor said:


> Also what size tank would you recommend for a ELN


Very Offtopic mate, best to make a seperate thread and not sidetrack this one


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 17, 2021)

Herptology said:


> imagine what you could do for the species with a $100k funding and support
> [automerge]1613475239[/automerge]
> I could achieve just as much if the ARP gave me their 12 adult purvisi that they collected from the wild and less than $10,000. That's the reality. $$ won't save them, not if the public or government threw 100 million dollars at the ARP.


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 17, 2021)

This is a good point. Sometimes money itself isn't enough to solve a problem, and some solutions can be had with little to no money. In any situation, any amount of money in the wrong place will be entirely wasted, regardless of how well-intentioned the donors are.

To actively suppress to solution though, that takes a special level of either incompetence or evil.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 17, 2021)

What's funny... the setup I've bred purvisi in now for 6-7 consecutive years cost me $1,000 to build... is completely 100% artificially controlled by myself, not 1 bit of it is naturally controlled or influenced by mother nature. 

Knowledge.. achieves far more than $$
[automerge]1613554183[/automerge]
This goes to show how little these government departments know... Mr Andrew Steed, chief NSW ecologist called today regarding Craig's letter, and says well purvis, bells and Georges turtles aren't held on licence by anyone in the state of NSW.. Oh man was he in for a shock when I informed him that Bell's, purvis and Georgesi are ALL held on licence in NSW by private keepers, not only are they held, they're bred (not purvis) and traded across the border into QLD! The bloke nearly fell off his chair, reckons that's not true it can't be, it's not allowed... lol what?!?! I said mate, I literally inquired about a trade 2 months ago with a breeder of Georgesi in NSW for some of my captive bred purvisi... there's Georgesi in QLD as far north as Cairns and there's more purvisi held on licence in QLD than all the other allowed endangered species combined and at least a dozen who've acquired Bell's from NSW lol... Andrew nearly had a heart attack... they clearly have no idea who has what and never have and then he mentioned how Marc and I were told by QLD DES to freeze purvisi eggs... reckons he's getting into contact with DES to find out WTF is going on as there's no way that directive is acceptable...

It's been a humorous few hours on the phone... they blindly make these policies thinking it'll affect no one then wonder why there's such a public backlash.

I need to turn my phone off... in the last week I've had more calls than what I've had in the last 20 years.
[automerge]1613701371[/automerge]
Still no answers... what am I to do with purvisi eggs post 2022?? It's a simple question.... DES palmed it off to QPWS... This is their reply...


----------



## dragonlover1 (Feb 19, 2021)

keep up the good fight Kev, don't let the boofocrats win


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 19, 2021)

dragonlover1 said:


> keep up the good fight Kev, don't let the boofocrats win


My response...


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 19, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> My response...View attachment 330703



Heh, tell passionate conservationists to desist in reproducing endangered species and destroy their offspring... play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Hopefully in the wake of this nonsense being resolved there will be at least a little more common sense in the system.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 19, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Heh, tell passionate conservationists to desist in reproducing endangered species and destroy their offspring... play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Hopefully in the wake of this nonsense being resolved there will be at least a little more common sense in the system.


You can tell it was s really well thought out policy... try and follow it and commit an offence... don't follow it, commit an offence... and the winner is??


----------



## Sdaji (Feb 19, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> You can tell it was s really well thought out policy... try and follow it and commit an offence... don't follow it, commit an offence... and the winner is??



It's a great shame that many of the... people... making these rules are bureaucrats with no knowledge or understanding of what they are managing, and no interest in learning about what they're managing, and apparently in many cases they don't even think there's a chance that they'll be pulled up on it if they make utterly absurd rules, or they're just so incredibly incompetent that they think insanity like this makes sense, or perhaps they just don't think it's important enough to care about and assume no one else thinks it's important either. There really should be intelligent people with a genuine interest in ecology and conservation in these roles. Ironically, such people probably wouldn't be particularly interested in the role and the powers that be wouldn't consider them to be good fits for the positions. At the very least they could get someone smart enough not to recommend the literal destruction of the offspring of endangered species which have plenty of very eager people wanting to give them homes at zero cost to the taxpayer.

Then again, bureaucrats make errors just as obvious and even more destructive even when it comes to issues like the CCP virus management, international relations, etc, so we can't set our expectations too high for conservation.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 20, 2021)

It gets better... if you inquire as to why purvis are now deemed "restricted" in QLD the reply is because they're endangered... yet the species actually on the list allowed to be kept by private keepers include - Fitzroy river turtles, Irwin's turtles, Bell's turtles, Mary River turtles, Jardine river turtles and Southern Snapping turtles.... all of which are IUCN listed and endangered but more to the point, endemic to QLD whereas purvis are not and therefore are of least concern. Ultimately it is proof that the ARP has conspired with the NSW government and put pressure on the QLD government to draft up and push through a ridiculous policy that gives the ARP complete control of the species to secure ongoimg public funding to breed and "save" them. Oh but wait... there's more.... the ARP is relinquishing captive control of purvis turtles to the state of South Australia... so South Australians will be the only ones legally allowed to keep, breed and trade Manning River turtles, but not QLD (where there's more purvis held on licence than any other endangered species) or NSW... what?!?! How does that even make any sense at all?? Where are the turtles going to come from if they've only ever been bred by private keepers in QLD and we're no longer allowed to keep, breed or trade?? Thia is just NSW saying FU to QLD...

I'm sorry but no, this just won't do... not one single aspect of this new policy is of benefit to the species it's been created to protect. Once they're extinct in the wild (now inevitable) the only ones left will be the specimens the ARP have poached with government permission, 12, and those they've bred (0) and the one's bred and held in QLD (currently over 250) considering it's estimated there's less than 1,000 left in the wild.... yes, it makes complete sense to restrict.them in QLD and put a stop to the only documented successful keeping and breeding of them.

Well done.




Watching a creature that's existed pre-extinction event that wiped out the dinosaurs slowly disappear is extremely frustrating for me... especially when myself and others that have the ability to prevent this are being lawfully bound by a new policy which will achieve nothing but the acceleration of purvisi's disappearance.

Purvisi will be the 1st Australian freshwater turtle declared extinct in the wild in NSW, if not all of Australia.
[automerge]1613781016[/automerge]
Probably the worst youtube video I've seen from ARP yet regarding purvisi.


I commented to correct all the misinformation being fed to the public.


----------



## Herpetology (Feb 20, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> It gets better... if you inquire as to why purvis are now deemed "restricted" in QLD the reply is because they're endangered... yet the species actually on the list allowed to be kept by private keepers include - Fitzroy river turtles, Irwin's turtles, Bell's turtles, Mary River turtles, Jardine river turtles and Southern Snapping turtles.... all of which are IUCN listed and endangered but more to the point, endemic to QLD whereas purvis are not and therefore are of least concern. Ultimately it is proof that the ARP has conspired with the NSW government and put pressure on the QLD government to draft up and push through a ridiculous policy that gives the ARP complete control of the species to secure ongoimg public funding to breed and "save" them. Oh but wait... there's more.... the ARP is relinquishing captive control of purvis turtles to the state of South Australia... so South Australians will be the only ones legally allowed to keep, breed and trade Manning River turtles, but not QLD (where there's more purvis held on licence than any other endangered species) or NSW... what?!?! How does that even make any sense at all?? Where are the turtles going to come from if they've only ever been bred by private keepers in QLD and we're no longer allowed to keep, breed or trade?? Thia is just NSW saying FU to QLD...
> 
> I'm sorry but no, this just won't do... not one single aspect of this new policy is of benefit to the species it's been created to protect. Once they're extinct in the wild (now inevitable) the only ones left will be the specimens the ARP have poached with government permission, 12, and those they've bred (0) and the one's bred and held in QLD (currently over 250) considering it's estimated there's less than 1,000 left in the wild.... yes, it makes complete sense to restrict.them in QLD and put a stop to the only documented successful keeping and breeding of them.
> 
> ...



ur comments been deleted matey hahaha (atleast, i cant see it anymore)


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 20, 2021)

Herptology said:


> ur comments been deleted matey hahaha (atleast, i cant see it anymore)


Yeah not surprised at all... fortunately I emailed my comment to myself as it was quite long so I can copy/paste and repost it relentlessly.

As a private keeper and breeder of Wollumbinia purvisi now for many years up here in the state of QLD where it's sunny one day and perfect the next I must say I found this video at first rather amusing but then most importantly extremely full of misinformation. So let's get about setting the record straight. ARP never had nor ever will have claim to an Australian or world first record with captive breeding this species nor does the future of this species rest solely on the success of this project. This video claims that "Manning river turtles" reach maturity at 5-6 years... absolute boohockey... the generation gap of Wollumbinia purvisi is actually 15-20 years, they couldn't even be accurately sexed as either male or female at 5 years of age. The video claims they can grow up to 30cm... and live for 50-60 years, incorrect. The average adult female size is actually closer to 18cm with males being smaller... also the average clutch size is around 12-14 eggs not 20+ W. purvisi being such a slow species to reach maturity would live well beyond 60 years, a good 2-3 decades beyond. The video claims the Manning river turtle is Australia's oldest turtle, it is not, the Lavaracks turtle (gulf snapper) predates Wollumbinia purvisi by a further 60 million years. Dan also mentions that males are far more vibrant than the dull females.. rubbish! Females are equally as vibrant and in many cases more so. Some of my own females are better looking than the males, Marc Dorse also notes this within his own collection. 

I currently have 12 W. purvisi hatchlings right now from a clutch that was laid on October 18th and hatched on December 7th (might I add without a 100k + public handout or state of the art facility, I'm a fully self funded home run operation) I do this because I LOVE, live and breathe turtles, I don't get paid from 9-5 Monday to Friday to keep, rear and breed turtles then get weekend's/public holidays off, this is a full-time and expensive hobby I maintain by having a full time day job to fund my efforts that I've been in for the last 18 years. 

The video shows hatchlings that are apparently being prepared for wild release... well how can they be prepared for wild release in bare glass bottomed tanks that aren't blacked out on all sides?? Such setups prevent turtles from exhibiting all natural instinctive defensive behaviours. Those young turtles have already imprinted in their brains that humans are where their food comes from and aren't the slightest bit afraid of a giant glove covered hand approaching them. Those hatchlings placed into the wild now would last all of 5 minutes... they've been set up to fail. They're domesticated now because of visual overexposure to humans and a feeding regime that associates humans with food. Epic FAIL there. Nail polish marked plastrons which make them stand out like dog's balls to predators... camouflage fail.
Releasing them is a fool's errand anyway... the foxes that predate upon the nests haven't been erradicated, the introduced Emydura macquarrii that are displacing Wollumbinia purvisi haven't been eradicated, the impacts of climate change and agricultural pressures upon their tiny natural range haven't been reversed so really... plopping them back into the river/s achieves nothing in the scope of things.... sure some may survive a little while and make it look like a huge success and $$ well spent but it won't achieve anything in the long run. The little purvisi that do survive the eels and birds will probably grow up if conditions allow it, for what?? To have their own nests destroyed or be predated on themselves by foxes or to be made genetically redundant by crossbreeding with introduced Emydura sp?? This project video by ARP is fooling everyone into believing success is now inevitable but those of us who actually know anything about the situation see it very differently... this project is not actually going to save anything as far as wild populations go, it will however temporarily prolong the inevitable.
Wollumbinia purvisi has no future in the Manning river or its tributaries. Not until all detrimental impacts on the species are addressed and dealt with accordingly.
It is terribly sad but true. 

For now, the immediate future of Wollumbinia purvisi rests in the more experienced and capable hands of private captive breeders like Marc Dorse and myself who have been making vital inroads into gaining a full understanding of this now rare and unique turtle's ecology and our combined vision to firmly establish this species in the captive trade where its future will be secure no matter what happens in the wild.

Finally, the recent law changes regarding the private keeping and breeding of protected wildlife imposed upon QLD keepers thanks to pressure applied on our government by certain parties based in NSW will ultimately seal Wollumbinia purvisi's fate of extinction if those changes are not revoked in the near future. This is not a game, it is not a joke, there will be no do-overs or second chances... politics and professional jealousy cannot stand in the way of the common good. This species has existed unchanged for over 80 million years, it is LITERALLY a living fossil and it's on the brink of extinction now thanks to the gross errors and mismanagement by every NSW department in the last 200. They say the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is now. This applies for Wollumbinia purvisi... the best time to start acting was 20 years ago and there's a handful of us up here in QLD that recognised this species was in urgent need of conservation effort long before the various NSW depts came to the party. We already have a substantial headstart on establishing a solid captive bred insurance population for this species. Why would anybody conservation minded want to cease our combined efforts that cost neither the Government or Australian public nothing, not one red cent? It just does not make any sense.

Kevin McKay - private keeper / Wollumbinia purvisi breeder / Australian freshwater turtle conservationist - Toowoomba QLD.
[automerge]1613983097[/automerge]
And further up the ladder of BS we climb...




And now we wait some more....


----------



## Pythonguy1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> hatched on December 7th


No kidding!? That's my birthday!


----------



## Herpetology (Mar 5, 2021)

Any update? @Flaviemys purvisi


----------



## CF Constrictor (Mar 13, 2021)

Well done F P !!!
Im sure you have the full support of everyone hear and anyone truely interested in conserving our wildlife. Im also sure that what you have done will lead to a positive outcome for both man and turtle. So a great big THANKS from Suzi , Rusty , Bozo and Doug.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 17, 2021)

Herptology said:


> Any update? @Flaviemys purvisi


Hi mate, sorry for the late reply, busy busy... Here's the latest!


----------



## Harpo (Mar 17, 2021)

What a crazy situation, it's scary to think what our gov. can, and does, do. @Flaviemys purvisi good luck on the 22-23rd. Record this meeting for us - and evidence/footage for TV (or court lol)?. Unbelievable.

Thanks for your massive effort. I'm sure it really sucks.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 17, 2021)

Harpo said:


> What a crazy situation, it's scary to think what our gov. can, and does, do. @Flaviemys purvisi good luck on the 22-23rd. Record this meeting for us - and evidence/footage for TV (or court lol)?. Unbelievable.
> 
> Thanks for your massive effort. I'm sure it really sucks.


Hi mate, Marc will be out of town on those proposed dates so we'll be rescheduling for a time suitable for both of us.


----------



## hamishh34 (Mar 19, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hi mate, Marc will be out of town on those proposed dates so we'll be rescheduling for a time suitable for both of us.


As a new keeper (cheers kev), I am very interested in sitting in on this meeting via zoom etc.


----------



## Sdaji (Mar 20, 2021)

Sounds like a very long and wordy way of saying "It's my job to patiently tolerate listening to you before proceeding with the awkward task of telling you that you have to follow the rules. I was chosen for this task as someone who isn't involved in making the rules and can't change them anyway"


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 20, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Sounds like a very long and wordy way of saying "It's my job to patiently tolerate listening to you before proceeding with the awkward task of telling you that you have to follow the rules. I was chosen for this task as someone who isn't involved in making the rules and can't change them anyway"


Yeah you're probably right.... But like Marc said to me, "Kev, policy is policy, it is NOT law. No one is going to persecute you for refusing to put the eggs of a critically endangered species in the freezer, it'd be like standing up on national television eating a s**t sandwich and saying this tastes yummy" Who's going to want to be the one to put their hand up and throw the book at me??


----------



## dragonlover1 (Mar 20, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Sounds like a very long and wordy way of saying "It's my job to patiently tolerate listening to you before proceeding with the awkward task of telling you that you have to follow the rules. I was chosen for this task as someone who isn't involved in making the rules and can't change them anyway"


my thoughts exactly, boofocratic double speak


----------



## Sdaji (Mar 20, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Yeah you're probably right.... But like Marc said to me, "Kev, policy is policy, it is NOT law. No one is going to persecute you for refusing to put the eggs of a critically endangered species in the freezer, it'd be like standing up on national television eating a s**t sandwich and saying this tastes yummy" Who's going to want to be the one to put their hand up and throw the book at me??


This is very true. Let them try to punish you for it, then challenge it, and there will probably be an interesting outcome. It's very difficult to imagine you being in severe trouble for refusing to kill endangered animals and it would be a good way to get egg on faces which need it and put some sense into the rules.


----------



## longirostris (Mar 20, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Sounds like a very long and wordy way of saying "It's my job to patiently tolerate listening to you before proceeding with the awkward task of telling you that you have to follow the rules. I was chosen for this task as someone who isn't involved in making the rules and can't change them anyway"


Yep agree with your assessment, pretty much exactly how I read the situation as well. For me, this is a whole pile of gobbledygook. I've seen this crap before, in fact I have been a part of a similar process at a NSW NPWS species list review meeting three years ago. What an absolute waste of attendees time. Twenty two people in the room including about 4 or 5 of us who were there covering our own costs and not actually being paid as employees of some interest group or government department and at the end of the day all the 6 hour talk fest could agree on was when to hold the next meeting and how to treat hybrid carpet python species in a revised keepers schedule, (which we still haven't seen) and not much else. The whole thing was a joke with certain NPWS employees that were in attendance barely able to contain their obvious contempt for our position. Not to mention the obligatory lobbyists in attendance from several of the larger animal welfare groups in the country. During the course of the meeting I had the opportunity to argue for 4 or 5 additional species of dragon to be added to the NSW keepers lists. I suggested that these species were classified as least concern on the IUCN red list which was confirmed by one of the other attendees who is actually responsible for nominating status of Australian species on the red list. I also pointed out that these species could be legally acquired through take from the wild collect permits in other states of Australia, a process I am a strong advocate for as most people will already know. I think that was a bridge too far for the loonies because next thing I know I had half the room crawling all over me. At one point I had a particular NPWS employee barely out of university and clearly with a god complex tell me categorically that once any animal is removed from the wild it has ZERO ecological value and may as well be dead and that is pretty much how they viewed the wildlife keeping/keeper activity. My immediate retort was if this is so then why are we forced to suffer lodging annual returns and keeping records. She fluffed a ridiculous answer and moved away. It won't surprise anyone that I did not get asked to attend the next keepers list review meeting 3 months later. I know I have digressed here, but I wanted to introduce some context into what I think these guys are up against. 

Unfortunately on this matter, I see some serious issues with these new rules in QLD and an uphill battle to change them. For me though. the biggest problem is that wildlife keepers as a collective do not have a viable, coordinated and strong advocacy group for our rights and voice as private keepers and hobbyists. I could see issues like this coming when these regulations were at the proposal stage and they were calling for submissions from interested parties and members of the public back in June 2018. I recall a conversation I had with a well known and respected keeper in QLD at that time where I told that person that I had written to the minister responsible at DES in QLD about the content and intent of the proposed changes to their licensing and keeping regulations and asked the person I was speaking to if they were going to do the same thing. The response I got was "nah, I don't keep anything that is controversial or unusual so I am not going to bother, it doesn't affect me." At that point I knew there was little if any hope of changing any aspect of what was proposed and I remember posting on this forum at the time that apathetic keepers in QLD will get exactly what was proposed in the review, a regulation process that is even worse than what they had before the review was conducted. Unfortunately the gate was not attended to and the horse has since bolted to use a metaphor and now they are faced with an uphill battle to try and correct what can only be described as a monumental bureaucratic stuff up, that has ridiculous outcomes that nobody except the welfare lobbyists and PETA type radicals and loonies want.

I hope you guys with these turtles can get common sense to prevail with these ridiculous regulations they are trying to force onto you, I really do, I just wish that you, that WE had our own *STRONG* advocacy group like an NRA that had a respected voice and some clout, that could actually force the Government Bureaucracy to listen and more importantly act favorably to your and our advice and concerns. I think you are going to be hard to hear over the noise from the welfare lobbyists, animal rights groups, environmentalists and extinction rebellion activists all demanding the ear of Government and threatening political careers if their views are not acted upon. It is going to be a tough sell I think.

I hope for everybody's sake you can pull it off.

Mark Hawker


----------



## -Adam- (Mar 24, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Less than 12 hours after this letter was sent, both Myself and Marc Dorse were raided by the QLD DES. So I can assure you this is having MAXIMUM impact as the ranger who visited me said this has kicked over a hornet's nest and opened up a whole can of worms that he personally wants no part of.



This to me in itself is significantly concerning. This is more what I would expect of Eastern Germany, or other like countries - NOT what is supposed to be a free and 'fair' country such as Australia. If this was done as retaliation - another hornets nest needs to be kicked over!!!

More bureaucrats in government seem to be getting away with bullying tactics and the direction this country's governments are heading (at a fast rate) is quite concerning to some of us who have lived long enough to know a bit of history and where this can lead!

If this is the attitude of those in power, then it's no wonder that they can't come up with decent regulations or have an understanding of what's going on in the real world. Good on ya mate for standing up to them!


----------



## dragonlover1 (Mar 24, 2021)

This was the attitude from the gubberment back in 1854 and look what happened then . If the people in power aren't careful it could happen again, we aren't plebs who cower down and do as we are ordered. There have been enough protests lately to warn them that people won't take much more. I'm not keen on a civil war or uprising but it looks like we are heading in that direction unfortunately.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Mar 25, 2021)

longirostris said:


> I hope you guys with these turtles can get common sense to prevail with these ridiculous regulations they are trying to force onto you, I really do, I just wish that you, that WE had our own *STRONG* advocacy group like an NRA that had a respected voice and some clout, that could actually force the Government Bureaucracy to listen and more importantly act favorably to your and our advice and concerns. I think you are going to be hard to hear over the noise from the welfare lobbyists, animal rights groups, environmentalists and extinction rebellion activists all demanding the ear of Government and threatening political careers if their views are not acted upon. It is going to be a tough sell I think.
> 
> I hope for everybody's sake you can pull it off.


Hi mate, great comment and yes you are correct. We however have one major ace up our sleeve.. Myself and Marc Dorse have unlocked this species' secrets, (separately without collaboration with one another prior 2021) and have been captive breeding them for almost a decade now at ZERO cost to the Australian Government and Aussie taxpayers... Now... while Marc is the first documented breeder of the species in captivity, his hatch/survival rates are substantially less than mine and I have given him some pointers as to what he's been doing wrong and what he needs to change so that this coming season will yield him far better results, 2021/22 will be a huge season for purvisi in QLD. Now when a policy is introduced that renders our combined proven efforts/activities "illegal" yet allows for a reptile park to A. remove animals from the wild for the purpose of captive breeding and B, secure government AND taxpayer funding to the tune of $970,000 (so far) to do so for ZERO result.... it leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of ALL involved when a couple of "nobody hobbyists" in QLD are doing it already... Hiding behind a zoo title and being backed by crowd funding and government grants doesn't mean a damn thing in the REAL world. I'm not a 9-5 employee, My turtles are in my home, there's hatchlings in tanks on my office desk, there's incubators beside my bed, there's a mattress with a pillow and blanket on the floor beside my main breeding tanks... You only get out what you put in, you can't just buy results. 

There's a lot of bureaucratic nonsense, gobblygook and doubletalk but at the end of the day facts are still facts. I can produce purvisi hatchies every season for the next 50 straight years for $0.00.... and if I refuse to destroy them, who's going to hang me for it?? Andrew Mullens from QPWS told Marc and I just this week that it would never happen.

The road is long and the hill is steep but we will prevail... of this I am certain.


----------



## dragonlover1 (Mar 25, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hi mate, great comment and yes you are correct. We however have one major ace up our sleeve.. Myself and Marc Dorse have unlocked this species' secrets, (separately without collaboration with one another prior 2021) and have been captive breeding them for almost a decade now at ZERO cost to the Australian Government and Aussie taxpayers... Now... while Marc is the first documented breeder of the species in captivity, his hatch/survival rates are substantially less than mine and I have given him some pointers as to what he's been doing wrong and what he needs to change so that this coming season will yield him far better results, 2021/22 will be a huge season for purvisi in QLD. Now when a policy is introduced that renders our combined proven efforts/activities "illegal" yet allows for a reptile park to A. remove animals from the wild for the purpose of captive breeding and B, secure government AND taxpayer funding to the tune of $970,000 (so far) to do so for ZERO result.... it leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of ALL involved when a couple of "nobody hobbyists" in QLD are doing it already... Hiding behind a zoo title and being backed by crowd funding and government grants doesn't mean a damn thing in the REAL world. I'm not a 9-5 employee, My turtles are in my home, there's hatchlings in tanks on my office desk, there's incubators beside my bed, there's a mattress with a pillow and blanket on the floor beside my main breeding tanks... You only get out what you put in, you can't just buy results.
> 
> There's a lot of bureaucratic nonsense, gobblygook and doubletalk but at the end of the day facts are still facts. I can produce purvisi hatchies every season for the next 50 straight years for $0.00.... and if I refuse to destroy them, who's going to hang me for it?? Andrew Mullens from QPWS told Marc and I just this week that it would never happen.
> 
> The road is long and the hill is steep but we will prevail... of this I am certain.


Keep up the good fight Kev, I know you have the tenacity of your miniature foxies . Keep nagging the gubberment boofocrats until they give up.


----------



## Sdaji (Mar 26, 2021)

Great work, your passion is undeniable and you're fighting the good fight. Good on you, and any decent person watching the situation will be on your side.


----------



## Herpetology (Mar 26, 2021)

Set up an online zoom call and make sure to stream it


----------



## Sdaji (Mar 26, 2021)

Herptology said:


> Set up an online zoom call and make sure to stream it



Haha, definitely! When the so-called conservation department of the government simultaneously demands some people freeze the offpring of an endangered species to kill them (????#&@^@&) and watches as others get huge grants to take them from the wild and fail to breed them, the bigger the audience the better!


----------



## longirostris (Mar 26, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> Haha, definitely! When the so-called conservation department of the government simultaneously demands some people freeze the offpring of an endangered species to kill them (????#&@^@&) and watches as others get huge grants to take them from the wild and fail to breed them, the bigger the audience the better!


I wonder how many turtles have been washed out to sea in the recent flooding on the NSW North Coast and mid north coast. I wouldn't mind betting that the endangered populations that used to be there before the floods are probably now critically endangered if not possibly wiped out or functionally extinct. 


Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hi mate, great comment and yes you are correct. We however have one major ace up our sleeve.. Myself and Marc Dorse have unlocked this species' secrets, (separately without collaboration with one another prior 2021) and have been captive breeding them for almost a decade now at ZERO cost to the Australian Government and Aussie taxpayers... Now... while Marc is the first documented breeder of the species in captivity, his hatch/survival rates are substantially less than mine and I have given him some pointers as to what he's been doing wrong and what he needs to change so that this coming season will yield him far better results, 2021/22 will be a huge season for purvisi in QLD. Now when a policy is introduced that renders our combined proven efforts/activities "illegal" yet allows for a reptile park to A. remove animals from the wild for the purpose of captive breeding and B, secure government AND taxpayer funding to the tune of $970,000 (so far) to do so for ZERO result.... it leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of ALL involved when a couple of "nobody hobbyists" in QLD are doing it already... Hiding behind a zoo title and being backed by crowd funding and government grants doesn't mean a damn thing in the REAL world. I'm not a 9-5 employee, My turtles are in my home, there's hatchlings in tanks on my office desk, there's incubators beside my bed, there's a mattress with a pillow and blanket on the floor beside my main breeding tanks... You only get out what you put in, you can't just buy results.
> 
> There's a lot of bureaucratic nonsense, gobblygook and doubletalk but at the end of the day facts are still facts. I can produce purvisi hatchies every season for the next 50 straight years for $0.00.... and if I refuse to destroy them, who's going to hang me for it?? Andrew Mullens from QPWS told Marc and I just this week that it would never happen.
> 
> The road is long and the hill is steep but we will prevail... of this I am certain.


Here is my thoughts on a media story for the message to get out there. "There is growing concern at just how much wildlife including rare and unique turtles have been washed out to sea in the recent catastrophic 1 in a 100 year flooding event on the NSW north and mid north coasts. Of particular concern would be turtle species that are found only in single rivers that have been absolutely inundated. It is entirely possible if not probable that several previously endangered species including the Manning River Turtle (Flaviemys purvisi) are probably now critically endangered if not wiped out or been rendered functionally extinct in the wild as a result of this disaster. Thank goodness that a captively held (private and public) and bred (by private keepers only) population exists because it is highly likely about to become a rescue and recovery population. Private wildlife keepers have argued for years with the bureaucracy at NSW NPWS that they should support and consider the activities of private keepers as a valuable resource with the potential to mitigate extinction risk with rescue and recovery populations in the event of these types of disasters. Private wildlife keepers have repeatedly suggested the current situation was always going to happen with at existentially at risk species. A single weather event like we have just had or fire disaster similar to the 2019-2020 fires and one or more entire species could be potentially wiped out. Why the conservationist elements in Government and government wildlife and regulatory authorities can't or probably more to the point choose not to see the benefits of privately held and bred wildlife as a backstop in the event of natural disasters is a serious issue that should be investigated. Clearly there is some biased if not bigoted short sightedness with ignoring some of benefits that private wildlife keepers can provide for conservation efforts of the wildlife they keep. If ever there was an argument for the contribution private wildlife keeping and breeding of endangered wildlife can have as a potential source for rescue and recovery populations then surely here it is" 

I think the media should eat this up. What do you think Kev, maybe its time to go to the media and start telling your story, our story. Most journalists don't actually know how to write let alone do something original, you generally have to give the copy to them on a silver platter so I thought I would get the ball rolling with this little opinion piece. You are welcome to use it however you want including binning it or chopping it up etc. I just wanted to offer some support for a fight worth fighting, don't give up.

Mark Hawker
[automerge]1616765290[/automerge]


Sdaji said:


> Haha, definitely! When the so-called conservation department of the government simultaneously demands some people freeze the offpring of an endangered species to kill them (????#&@^@&) and watches as others get huge grants to take them from the wild and fail to breed them, the bigger the audience the better!



I don't want to hijack Kev's thread, but I want to build on your comments about the ludicrous situation of quasi government authorities and grants. Probably about ten or so years ago, I came across a guy who was breeding Tymapanocryptis centralis, the Centralian Earless dragon. I had kept and bred these myself for probably 8 - 10 years or so before that. My population had crashed and died out and I wanted to replace them so I ended up with 10 or 12 of these little guys from him. 

Any way long story short, this guy was actually a resident of the ACT and highly placed in the executive of the local herpetological Association. He was actually approached by the wildlife regulatory authority in the ACT to gauge his interest in participating in a Government sanctioned breeding program for the critically endangered Tympanocryptis pinguicolla, (recently reclassified as Tympanocryptis lineata). He mentioned his potential involvement in this program to me at the time and the fact that the authorities had approached him because of his experience with breeding 2 species of earless dragons. Wow I thought, how good is this. Finally a far sighted wildlife regulator that actually sees the benefit in involving private keepers and breeders in rescue and recovery breeding programs. I was genuinely excited, not the least of which was because of the potential for the species to come into the private wildlife keeping fraternity. I have always had a strong interest in Earless dragons and was keen to see this species being bred in captivity. 

Anyway, nothing came of the approach and I heard nothing further about this program until 5 or 6 years ago when I saw a media article (ABC TV news story) trumpeting the success of one of the universities in the ACT (Canberra University I think) with their captive breeding program that they had been working on for several years. What really irked me was that they had just been awarded $380,000 in government grants to continue their "trailblazing efforts as the first to breed the species in captivity". This new grant was over and above a previous grant to get the program up and running. I was told the university convinced the ACT government to use them and keep private individuals out of the whole process. 

I have no doubt that had any of a number of committed private keepers including myself been given the same opportunities to access the species through collect from the wild permits we would have bred the bloody things for nothing, NO cost what so ever to the government. Yet, somehow or another the efforts of the people at the university were lauded as ground breaking and worthy of TV coverage. What a croc of s... At the time of this groundbreaking success at the university I had already bred 5 of the 9 or 10 known species at the time.

Why does this stuff happen. As I say I would have bred them for nothing. No need for a grant, yet nearly half a million dollars get's thrown at a university to do exactly what I have been doing for years. Like I say the huha over this whole process just thoroughly p...ed me off, because there was never any opportunity for private individuals to make a contribution because of the crappy attitudes of the authorities and the universities peddling their own agenda, their so called expertise and the need to fund that so called expertise. 

This type of crap has got to stop. Sure, fund the universities, but don't restrict the opportunity for others particularly private individuals to make a contribution to the field of herpetology in order to justify the funding process to those universities. 

Mark Hawker


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (May 20, 2021)

Latest update/email from 2 days ago...

RE: CTS No. 03549/21 - Letter from the Director-General, Department of Environment and Science

Wildlife Management
to Marc, Kevin

Hello Marc, (and Kevin)

Thank you for your detailed communication on 09.04.2021 in regards the keeping and breeding of Purvis turtles in Queensland.

I apologise for the delay in getting back to you. We have had a busy time here, and the department’s stance remains unchanged as per our email and telephone communications.

The legislation was changed in 2020 and with that the requirements of keeping certain animals has also changed. I do understand that change can be difficult, especially when the change is perceived as not being for the benefit of the animal and when it effects your plans. However, we must work within the law and currently a there are specific pathways for you to purse to be able to keep and breed Purvis turtles in Queensland.

The Department has a very strong commitment to helping people find options to comply with their legislative requirement, and that is our interest in discussing this matter with you. It is also our responsibility to ensure that we respond to non-compliance the legislation appropriately and proportionally.

It is not part of the role in my team to advocate on your behalf for a change in the current legislation in Queensland. But we are very committed to working with you and other purvis keepers to pursue a way to keep animals under the new legislation, including options to breed the animals so that animals can eventually be released to the wild in New South Wales and contribute to the conservation of the species in the wild.

I believe, as per my previous email, there are several options that would allow you to achieve this, specifically, either:

Establishing an arrangement to keep and breed animals on a “permit to keep” based on the condition of transferring any newly bred animals to a captive breeding agreement in New South Wales, or
Pursuing your own captive breeding agreement under Queensland legislation, with a view to eventually releasing the animals to the wild in New South Wales.
I think there is a great opportunity to work constructively to find a solution for continued keep of this animal in Queensland. However if those options aren’t something you would like to pursue I would suggest that you contact the Minister to advocate for a change to the relevant legislation.

Continued banter with QPWS&P about the merits of the current legislation, or your views on the department’s work more broadly are not likely to be very helpful at this point. The requirements of the legislation are very clear at this point, as are the options available to the keepers of this species. I understand that many keepers of this species are now moving closer to the end of their licences, and I would suggest now is an excellent time to take appropriate action to ensure you (and other keepers) are acting within the law and to secure a good outcome for your current turtles, any potential progeny, and the species as a whole.

*Andrew Mullens*
Manager, Operational Policy and Governance
*Wildlife and Threatened Species Operations, Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service*
Department of Environment and Science


----------



## Herpetology (May 20, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Pursuing your own captive breeding agreement under Queensland legislation, with a view to eventually releasing the animals to the wild in New South Wales.


I might be missing something, but is this not the best outcome in any scenario for you Kevin and Marc

how many people are given the opportunity to LEGALLY RELEASE their privately captive bred animals back into the wild in the name of conservation??

I know a couple turtle breeders who would be ecstatic over this opportunity! I think they would be taking a huge risk in trusting your animals are disease free.. wouldn’t be the first captive collection to have a disease not noticed running through their captive breds...


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (May 20, 2021)

Herptology said:


> I might be missing something, but is this not the best outcome in any scenario for you Kevin and Marc
> 
> how many people are given the opportunity to LEGALLY RELEASE their privately captive bred animals back into the wild in the name of conservation??
> 
> I know a couple turtle breeders who would be ecstatic over this opportunity! I think they would be taking a huge risk in trusting your animals are disease free.. wouldn’t be the first captive collection to have a disease not noticed running through their captive breds...


Hi mate, in theory it's a great idea, in reality, no it's not. Releasing any captive bred purvisi into the wild (even completely disease free) would be a fool's errand. All of the pressures placed upon their wild existence need to be removed before any successful reintroduction could take place. Think of it like the Lake Eacham Rainbow fish in Lake Eacham... same situation. Until the pressures in the wild have been eased, releasing captive bred ones into the wild will achieve nothing. I'd for now much rather see their numbers boosted in captivity where their future would be secure.


----------



## Friller2009 (May 20, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Hi mate, in theory it's a great idea, in reality, no it's not. Releasing any captive bred purvisi into the wild (even completely disease free) would be a fool's errand. All of the pressures placed upon their wild existence need to be renoved before any successful reintroduction could take place. Think of it like the Lake Eacham Rainbow fish in Lake Eacham... same situation. Until the pressures in the wild have been eased, releasing captive bred ones into the wild will achieve nothing. I'd for now much rather see their numbers boosted in captivity where their future would be secure.


Hi, regarding the lake eachem rainbows, I’ve been told by the genetics guy who manages ANGFA Australia to breed the lake eachem rainbows with the rainbows from close creeks to help save the species.


----------



## hamishh34 (May 21, 2021)

Friller2009 said:


> Hi, regarding the lake eachem rainbows, I’ve been told by the genetics guy who manages ANGFA Australia to breed the lake eachem rainbows with the rainbows from close creeks to help save the species.



Its not the genetic of the animals Kev is talking about or the ability to breed them. Its about the release of them back into the wild being a redundant exercise.


----------



## Friller2009 (May 21, 2021)

hamishh34 said:


> Its not the genetic of the animals Kev is talking about or the ability to breed them. Its about the release of them back into the wild being a redundant exercise.


Ahhhh,
Thnaks


----------



## Sdaji (May 21, 2021)

If you start with a health population of animals, and then that population crashes, adding more animals without removing the cause will just result in dead animals.

If it's foxes eating the eggs or pollution in the water or pigs or factories or whatever else destroying the river banks, or whatever else the cause of the population destruction was, if it's not fixed, it still exists, so there's no point in dumping more animals there. At best you are sentencing animals to an unpleasant death. At worst you are altering the gene pool (this can be a serious issue even if your breeder animals originate from that exact location), introducing pathogens or parasites, or causing any number of other problems. If there is still a viable population there, removing the cause (eliminating the pollution or feral animals or whatever it may be) will allow the population to recover on its own. It is common for animal introductions to cause problems and it is almost never successful.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (May 21, 2021)

Sdaji said:


> If you start with a health population of animals, and then that population crashes, adding more animals without removing the cause will just result in dead animals.
> 
> If it's foxes eating the eggs or pollution in the water or pigs or factories or whatever else destroying the river banks, or whatever else the cause of the population destruction was, if it's not fixed, it still exists, so there's no point in dumping more animals there. At best you are sentencing animals to an unpleasant death. At worst you are altering the gene pool (this can be a serious issue even if your breeder animals originate from that exact location), introducing pathogens or parasites, or causing any number of other problems. If there is still a viable population there, removing the cause (eliminating the pollution or feral animals or whatever it may be) will allow the population to recover on its own. It is common for animal introductions to cause problems and it is almost never successful.


Bingo!


----------



## dragonlover1 (May 24, 2021)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Latest update/email from 2 days ago...
> 
> RE: CTS No. 03549/21 - Letter from the Director-General, Department of Environment and Science
> 
> ...


sounds like more double speak from the ministry for communication. In other words we don't give a **** and you will have to destroy all your progeny even though they are destined for extinction. I wish you all the best in your endeavour Kevin


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (May 24, 2021)

dragonlover1 said:


> sounds like more double speak from the ministry for communication. In other words we don't give a **** and you will have to destroy all your progeny even though they are destined for extinction. I wish you all the best in endeavour Kevin


I have a couple of last resort aces up my sleeve yet mate.


----------



## dragonlover1 (May 24, 2021)

today is world turtle day


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (May 25, 2021)

dragonlover1 said:


> today is world turtle day


May 23rd.


----------

