# Stimi questions



## Bumpkin (Jun 17, 2018)

Hi all. Just wondering do stop handling ur stimi during winter? Hes stopped eating. But still comes out. Should i limit handling till it warms up or keep gettinf him out everyday?
Cheers


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Jun 17, 2018)

You handle it every day?? Why?


----------



## Bumpkin (Jun 17, 2018)

Why not? Keep them quiet. First snake. No need to judge


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Jun 17, 2018)

Not judging just wanting to know why you handled it every day... my stimmy gets handled once every 6 weeks perhaps. Daily handling will upset/unsettle it nore than anything else...


----------



## Buggster (Jun 17, 2018)

If he’s not eating, limit the activity. By waking him up and moving him around you’re forcing him to use energy stores which are supposed to last him the entire winter season.


----------



## gemsmidz (Jun 17, 2018)

My female is about 20 months old now and she actively seeks my attention at the glass and once opened, she pops right out and on to my own hand without being hooked out picked up. 
She evens expects me at certain times of the day as she knows in the morning and afternoons, she gets to have a sun bake with me on the deck. 
Obviously all snakes are different - my Coastal and Diamond are more reserved but my ADP and the Stimmie are more than happy to hang with Mum and come out of their enclosures of their own free will as regularly as possible. 
Just saying. 


Flaviemys purvisi said:


> Not judging just wanting to know why you handled it every day... my stimmy gets handled once every 6 weeks perhaps. Daily handling will upset/unsettle it nore than anything else...


----------



## Bumpkin (Jun 17, 2018)

Id like for him to be comfortable with coming out every day and hanging around with me for a bit.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Jun 17, 2018)

That sounds a little like anthropormophism... I understand what you're saying and thinking/interpreting (it's normal for humans to impose our emotions/feelings onto other creatures) but a snake's tiny brain doesn't enable it to actively seek out your companionship and bond with you and have "hang with mum time in the sun"... that's not actually what's going on.


----------



## gemsmidz (Jun 17, 2018)

Flaviemys purvisi said:


> That sounds a little like anthropormophism... I understand what you're saying and thinking/interpreting but a snake's tiny brain doesn't enable it to actively seek out your companionship and bond with you and have "hang with mum time in the sun"...


Obviously I don’t think my snakes are waiting on me for some one on one. I’m not special in the head. 
My interpretation of their behaviour is that they are happy to come out and say hello regularly. I don’t have to remove them from their homes. 
They have become accustomed to positive stimulation at certain times of the day and are content to participate. 
I do realise my snakes are not puppies.


----------



## GBWhite (Jun 17, 2018)

gemsmidz said:


> Obviously I don’t think my snakes are waiting on me for some one on one. I’m not special in the head.
> My interpretation of their behaviour is that they are happy to come out and say hello regularly. I don’t have to remove them from their homes.
> They have become accustomed to positive stimulation at certain times of the day and are content to participate.
> I do realise my snakes are not puppies.



What you describe is anthropomorphism (a human tendency to attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to non-human entities such as animals). I don't think you quite understand snake behavior. They do not possess the ability to display emotions such as affection and do not nor need to develop a bond with their keeper. So they're not, as you put it and seem to believe, "happy to come out and say hello regularly". They don't care to respond to or have the cognitive ability to recognize, what you refer to as, positives stimulation nor are they able to determine or relate to time as humans do. They tolerate being handled but don't really like it. Left to their own accord they would prefer to be as far away from human contact as possible. If you don't believe me then just leave the enclosure door open and see what happens.


----------



## Bl69aze (Jun 17, 2018)

I have to admit... its hard to not handle a brand new snake in the family... but i think i stuffed my current baby snake up, by handling almost every day for a few months... she was always out and about and now she rarely comes out 

so now i only get her out when she needs a clean or something.

what i can say is dont take this feedback as "dont handle ever unless absolute necessary" - snakes can get your smell and understand you are not a threat, handling sometimes like once a week should be fine.

its also fine to have fun now and then..

be a tree, become the tree!


----------



## gemsmidz (Jun 17, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> What you describe is anthropomorphism (a human tendency to attribute human traits, emotions or intentions to non-human entities such as animals). I don't think you quite understand snake behavior. They do not possess the ability to display emotions such as affection and do not nor need to develop a bond with their keeper. So they're not, as you put it and seem to believe, "happy to come out and say hello regularly". They don't care to respond to or have the cognitive ability to recognize, what you refer to as, positives stimulation nor are they able to determine or relate to time as humans do. They tolerate being handled but don't really like it. Left to their own accord they would prefer to be as far away from human contact as possible. If you don't believe me then just leave the enclosure door open and see what happens.


I feel I’ve explained my comment adequately. 
I don’t see my snakes as puppies, nor do I fantasise about them displaying human characteristics or even responding to me in kind. 
I simply highlighted the fact that they are content to come to me and stay in my company outside of their enclosures and not abscond. 
I did not suggest that they are bonded with me or seek my affection. 
They don’t seem to sit or stay when I say so and so far, seem averse to shmackos as rewards for not pissing on the carpet. 

Have I adequately replied to your condescending response?


----------



## Shire pythons (Jun 17, 2018)

Gotta say its more likely your snakes are not actively seeking your attention , more like trying to escape/explore etc . Not trying to be condescending just realistic ! Sorry @gemsmidz 
@GBWhite is spot on the money


----------



## gemsmidz (Jun 17, 2018)

Shire pythons said:


> Gotta say its more likely your snakes are not actively seeking your attention , more like trying to escape/explore etc . Not trying to be condescending just realistic ! Sorry @gemsmidz
> @GBWhite is spot on the money


“Actively seeking my attention” was a poor choice of words however I feel I’ve adeqautley explained my comment.


----------



## Shire pythons (Jun 17, 2018)

No need to explain anything its not about right or wrong just an expression of opinions which can be taken on board or not


----------



## Bl69aze (Jun 17, 2018)

if i didnt have to worry about upsetting some people, i'd say handle him as much as you want... you would experience a behaviour change in your lil friend however


----------



## Shire pythons (Jun 17, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> but i think i stuffed my current baby snake up, by handling almost every day for a few months


Yet you're the first to one to hand out advice and you're own husbandry seems to be somewhat questionable alot of the time ???


----------



## Bl69aze (Jun 17, 2018)

Shire pythons said:


> Yet you're the first to one to hand out advice and you're own husbandry seems to be somewhat questionable alot of the time ???


would u believe i followed someone elses (well known) advice to get her out often to make sure shes not snappy

would u also believe ive never had a health problem?????even BEFORE i joined this site. amazing questionable husbandry. meanwhile you get every week people with health issues such as RI.


----------



## GBWhite (Jun 17, 2018)

gemsmidz said:


> I feel I’ve explained my comment adequately.
> I don’t see my snakes as puppies, nor do I fantasise about them displaying human characteristics or even responding to me in kind.
> I simply highlighted the fact that they are content to come to me and stay in my company outside of their enclosures and not abscond.
> I did not suggest that they are bonded with me or seek my affection.
> ...



I really don't care if you think my response was condescending or not, everything you've written here contradicts what you have stated in your previous post. I won't bother offering anymore advice because it appears that I would be just....


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jun 18, 2018)

While the meaning of the term anthropomorphism may be known (via Wikipedia), it is still being used far too often incorrectly. There is nothing anthropomorphic about the statements made here, bar one. That statement is: “… they are happy to come out and say hullo”. No. Use of the word “happy” here is NOT an example. When used with the infinitive “to” after it, the term simple means “willing”. (Oxford dictionary - meaning 1.3 as an adjective). 

The phrase to “say hullo” is clearly a figure of speech, as snakes cannot talk. So that allows a little leeway in interpretation. How you as a reader interprets this is no doubt dependent on your perspective in this discussion. Greeting behaviour between animals and their owners is very common and is seen in social animals, including invertebrates. Clearly this is not exclusively a human trait and so does not qualify as anthropomorphism.

“My female is about 20 months old now and she actively seeks my attention at the glass.” This IS exactly what happens. Why does a snake in the wild freeze when it thinks there is a predator/threat nearby? It instinctively knows that movement will attract attention to itself and therefore it remains motionless, in hope of avoiding detection. So what’s so hard to understand about a snake deliberately moving around at the front of its cage to attract its keeper’s attention? I have observed this behaviour and it clearly differs from a snake’s normal cruising of its enclosure when it unaware there is someone present.

As for proving a snake just wants to escape by leaving the door open - trying leaving the gate open for the dog or the cage door open for the parrot. This proves nothing. I might add, if the snake really just wanted to ‘escape’ in the genuine meaning of the word, then it would head straight for the floor and not its keeper’s arm.

Intelligence is the other term that is problematic in these discussions. It used as if there is only one level thereof. Either an organism is intelligent or it’s not. Yet we all know that intelligence varies hugely among humans. Why then do we not acknowledge a much greater range of levels of intelligence when talking about other species? 

Can snakes learn? Have a read of this: http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/bcs/snake.htm. The following Brian Barczyk video is well worth watching: .


----------



## GBWhite (Jun 18, 2018)

Each to their own Mike. I think we've been down this path before and as I've said in the past we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not sure who you directed your comment about reading Wikipedia to understand the meaning anthropomorphism, but as I'm sure you're aware it's been around a lot longer than Wikipedia has existed. It comes down to a person's interpretation of the term and as far as I'm concerned the post I referred to smacks of it. I read the Holtzman paper ages ago and I believe it was poorly undertaken and didn't prove a thing. Like the guy in the video alludes it didn't confirm snakes had any level of intelligence and as far as learning went it doesn't quantify if the snakes learn't to follow the coloured arrows or if they were simply instinctively following scent trails. I don't have a lot of confidence in what the girl states in the video either, I noticed that as said she could touch the snakes head and went to do so it instinctively pulled out of her hand. He refers to the way Titan reacted differently to him than Chelsie then asks, "Is that intelligence or just a chemical que?" He also makes note that snakes have poor eye sight and rely primarily on their sense of smell and asks "Is a person putting off a particular chemical que and the response they are getting from that and dealing with that person's particular chemical que is what they are going after?" All in all he doesn't seem to be convinced that snakes have any level of intelligence either. As I've also asked before, "Are snakes smart and do snakes have a certain level of intelligence or do they react instinctively based on chemical ques? No one will ever know until comprehensive studies are undertaken to prove it one way or the other.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Jun 21, 2018)

Yes George we did agree to disagree. I know better than to try and convince you! Lol. The information that was presented was for others, such as @Bumkin and @gemsmidz, to read/view and make up their own minds.

There were some statements in your reply that need to be addressed as they are not reflective of what was actually done. The article on Holtzmans research actually staes: _"Actually, one of the interesting findings from our studies is that snakes use vision at all in locating places," says Holtzman. "They don't just rely on the chemical cues picked up by flicking their tongues out, as many snake biologists assume."_ And: _“…snakes are readily taught to find the exits […] and then recall how to use cues to find them in successive trials.”_ Following scent trails was removed as a factor by using different boxes for successive trials, identical other than a different positioning of the escape hole and its cues (visual + tactile only). This negates your statement that the Holztman research “…doesn't quantify if the snakes learn't to follow the coloured arrows or if they were simply instinctively following scent trails”. One is therefore given to also question the veracity of your assertion that the Holtzman et al research “was poorly undertaken and didn't prove a thing.”


----------



## gemsmidz (Jun 24, 2018)

Thank you for acknowledging my post in the nature it was intended and for interpreting in kind. 
Bit of lateral thinking goes a long way. Lol 
I look forward to your future posts. Cheers. 


Bluetongue1 said:


> While the meaning of the term anthropomorphism may be known (via Wikipedia), it is still being used far too often incorrectly. There is nothing anthropomorphic about the statements made here, bar one. That statement is: “… they are happy to come out and say hullo”. No. Use of the word “happy” here is NOT an example. When used with the infinitive “to” after it, the term simple means “willing”. (Oxford dictionary - meaning 1.3 as an adjective).
> 
> The phrase to “say hullo” is clearly a figure of speech, as snakes cannot talk. So that allows a little leeway in interpretation. How you as a reader interprets this is no doubt dependent on your perspective in this discussion. Greeting behaviour between animals and their owners is very common and is seen in social animals, including invertebrates. Clearly this is not exclusively a human trait and so does not qualify as anthropomorphism.
> 
> ...


----------



## GBWhite (Jun 24, 2018)

There were some statements in your reply that need to be addressed as they are not reflective of what was actually done. The article on Holtzmans research actually staes: [I said:


> "Actually, one of the interesting findings from our studies is that snakes use vision at all in locating places," says Holtzman. "They don't just rely on the chemical cues picked up by flicking their tongues out, as many snake biologists assume."[/I] And: _“…snakes are readily taught to find the exits […] and then recall how to use cues to find them in successive trials.”_ Following scent trails was removed as a factor by using different boxes for successive trials, identical other than a different positioning of the escape hole and its cues (visual + tactile only). This negates your statement that the Holztman research “…doesn't quantify if the snakes learn't to follow the coloured arrows or if they were simply instinctively following scent trails”. One is therefore given to also question the veracity of your assertion that the Holtzman et al research “was poorly undertaken and didn't prove a thing.”



He didn't use separate boxes for each test Mike. I've just gone back over his paper. He used the same black coloured arena 183cm in diameter and 61cm high over a wooden floor which was painted black for all tests (3 per day x 4 days) with 80 minute intervals between each test each day. After each test he only used soap and water as a means to attempt to clean away any chemical clues and anyone experienced with keeping snakes knows that the use of just soap and water is a poor choice of cleaning medium to remove snake scent. This negates your statement that "Following scent trails was removed as a factor by using boxes for successive trials". The results were based on the time it took each snake reach the escape point plus the distance traveled to reach the escape point which considering the method and apparatus used mean SFA in the long run. As you're aware snakes have an incredible sense of smell that they have relied upon to serve them successfully for thousands and thousands of years and have, just like dogs (and just maybe even better than dogs) the undeniable ability to detect scent trails from a microscopic chemical clue. All this study did was to show that snakes don't just wander about aimlessly.

I see that you are quoting from an article which quotes Holzeman relating to his findings in his original paper. I doubt if you'd find the bloke saying anything less than positive about the outcome. How many academic papers does one come across that prove a study based on a hypothesis negative? What you've quoted would have far more credibility if it came from someone other than the lead author. The result of this study is questionable and unclear. As far as I'm concerned the manner in which the study was undertaken didn't actually confirm that snakes were "smart" or were capable of being "taught" anything.


----------



## Sdaji (Jun 25, 2018)

Snake newbie: Is it okay if I handle my snake?

APS: RAAWWGHGHGH!!! F U!!! ARHGHGHGH!!!! DIE!!! #*21948732#(#&*#%(@@@@#%(!*[email protected]%^! PICKLE #&*2#%@(#%@ I HATE YOU ALL!!! DON"T REEMBER WHAT WE TALK ABOUT BUT I ANGRY!!!!! OFF TOPIC ANGER!!! $%&*(@#&%*(@# dog hAir! $*(&(#@%#


----------



## Bl69aze (Jun 25, 2018)

Sdaji said:


> Snake newbie: Is it okay if I handle my snake?
> 
> APS: RAAWWGHGHGH!!! F U!!! ARHGHGHGH!!!! DIE!!! #*21948732#(#&*#%(@@@@#%(!*[email protected]%^! PICKLE #&*2#%@(#%@ I HATE YOU ALL!!! DON"T REEMBER WHAT WE TALK ABOUT BUT I ANGRY!!!!! OFF TOPIC ANGER!!! $%&*(@#&%*(@# dog hAir! $*(&(#@%#


It’s no joke! Your lil friend could get stressed and it’s heart will blow up!!


----------

