# Tongs debate!!



## snakehandler (Mar 17, 2009)

For a long time now there has been a great deal of pressure to provide proof that tongs do not harm snakes. Despite having approval to do this testing, using 132 different specimens that all tested to be fine, no injuries and no deaths, people will still claim that tongs are dangerous.

Some brands are dangerous and should be banned, one such tong is the pilstrum tongs.

I put the call out. Can anybody provide evidence, backed up, verified and from a reliable source that tongs such as gentle giants cause any harm to the snake......for ages it has been on the onus of the side defending tongs to provide proof...but lets see what comes out in terms of evidence, not hear say, not anecdotal but proof.

Many of you believe they do not have a use...some do....


----------



## JasonL (Mar 17, 2009)

I have never had a problem with the use of tongs, the correct use that is. It ludicrous to think that because someone uses tongs that the snake will be harmed. I'd rather someone on hand and willing to try and save a snake using tongs than a shovel, and there's always someone wanting to help out with a shovel not to far away.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 17, 2009)

I understand that some people do see the use of tongs as acceptable....but I am tired of arguing the fact they do not injure snakes......I want proof from these people of the damage they do......not defensive response of biting demonstrating stress....this can be shown with every technique......physical harm....physical damage.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 17, 2009)

mate i only use them when i need to, there only dangerous to the animal if you use them the wrong way, ive never had a problem or have they. I dont use them on my own snakes as there is just no need for it. though a wild adult eastern brown on a hot day sssss up in a corner around other people in a confined space , can be very very handy. I have all types of tools i use and i always take tongs with me just incase, The best tool you can take with you is a couple of bandages.......


----------



## Kris (Mar 17, 2009)

I think you'll only get 1 main person that will "debate" you about them.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Mar 17, 2009)

I personally have never had the need to use tongs, and can't really see that I will, but who knows what the future holds? I do agree with Snakehandler that from a OHS point of view they do have their place, even if that place is in a kit bag in the back of a ute. We are in the process of implementing their use into our Industry based courses, and will strictly be using Midwest Gentle Giants after trying all brands personally on our own snakes.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

Kris said:


> I think you'll only get 1 main person that will "debate" you about them.


 Why Kris thankyou you couldve come straight out and said it, I dont mind you using my name ....You know my views and I dont care what your reasons are I still feel the same way about the use of them .AND to make it clear for the 100th time ..I wasnt saying that the gentle giant tongs are causing injuries on the snakes ..my issue is, that in a situation where you want a calm and quiet reptile as best as you can have it ,tongs clamp down! even if its not hurting the snake it is creating "defensive behaviour"by clamping ,and in so you are then faced with a angry snake to which a situation has more chance of going wrong ..it is not like a snake hook that lifts the snake up ...what worries me to is the more new people to the catching /relocating if using and relying on tongs ,you may end up with people that in a hook situation would never had made the grade but using this device they get the pass ..and so we get people now that have less confidence and wit about themselves relying on a tool implement ..and I know I am not the only one on APS that is against using the even so called" snake friendly"gentle giant tong .for the same reasons .


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

Actually RBB I have seen a brown launch at a hook and attempt to bite it. A person does not complete a course just by being able to do one technique, they must show competence in all techniques. I can show you defensive action from snakes with every technique used. I can also show you snakes that do not respond defensively to the tongs....in the wild....the technique when taught correctly does not "clamp"down any harder than when you use the technique of tailing....it is just further up the body. Before you condem a technique you should research your information about all techniques and attempt them all over a period of time.

Even with this statement I am yet to see any proof that tongs create harm to a snake.......again RBB you have been successful in getting a defense response....but not one piece of evidence has surfaced....SHOW ME PROOF!


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

it is my view like I said ..and the fact you do have to use it further up the body you may know what your doing but alot of catchers get through the loop hole and get a permit and are really a danger to themselves its not that black and white to get a permit ,people have ways of getting round the system ,you probably even know of some bad licensed catchers if not I am sure there are others on here that do, and that only makes the COWBOYS in this industry even worse ,they may not care as much where to correctly grab with a tong etc ..we can just beg to differ on this subject snakehandler cause you wont convert me .


----------



## TrueBlue (Mar 18, 2009)

Wether they harm snakes or not they are just not needed imo, and i belive anyone that HAS to use them to catch a wild snake is NOT competent and should not be relocating snakes in the first place. Simple.
Ive relocated hundreds of snakes from just about every situation you could imagine and NEVER had an instance where tongs were needed.
Much the same as the use of snakes that have had their venom glads removed to use in shows.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

So Dr. Bryan Fry is not competent.....hmmm one of the worlds leading venom researcher!!!


----------



## TrueBlue (Mar 18, 2009)

I know Bryan well, and he would know how i feel about tongs. To tell you the truth im amazed that he would ever use them.


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Mar 18, 2009)

I too know Bryan and give him plenty of curry about his handling techniques as well


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

cornered eastern brown ...should I wish for a set of tongs?






an eastern brown this riled up is not something I wouldnt try n catch while it is in that frame of defence,it does settle down enough to be "gently" hooked up and placed in my bag ..I have been in contact with defensive snakes ,myself,but have been taught by a great man how to relax a snake enough to get it in my bag ..so by the time I am hooking up and tailing that action has settled down and is quiet easy to bag .
a stressed out snake is the most dangerous one to encounter ,so the least amount of stress i place upon a snake the better for both it and myself.


----------



## Christopher51383 (Mar 18, 2009)

Tongs for BBQ snake hooks for snakes.....


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

I would have used a hook as well....

but no one can give me facts about harm they cause


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> I would have used a hook as well....
> 
> but no one can give me facts about harm they cause


 yeah you wouldve made the right call,but alot of others would have gone straight for the tongs ,this big fella didnt even worry when i lifted his body up he slowly made his way out enough so I could pick up his tail and then he showed a bit of action due to being held but as it was for a few short seconds to being placed in my bag it was not subjected to alot of stress and didnt feel threatened ..had I held onto that tail for a longer period that out come would have been different it wouldve gotten stressed and then got into a defensive mode..with the tongs how do you create that situation?..one example how my trainer made us realise on how to pick up snakes he said you never "grab" he walked up to me and without knowing what he was going to do he grabbed me by the arm and pulled me ..he asked me how I felt I said well had you been someone that I didnt know ,I wouldve taken offence and gotten pissed off,then he did it again only this time he placed his hand underneath my arm and gently lifted and said now how did you feel ...his point was if you grab a snake you will create a defensive action ,if you lift a snake you will get a positive response..the hook lifts and only for a few seconds are you holding the tail end ..from how I have seen the tong used ,it grabs and then you use a pull method to get it off the ground this action is also done fast so there is no gentle approach at all .


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Mar 18, 2009)

So far I have heard the following reasons why tongs are preferred.
To use them you are somehow incompetent.
They can injure the snake.
They make the snake defensive.

First I would love to hear how highly experienced people who have tailed and caught elapids for years that have now see reason to use some brands of tongs are suddenly incompetent ?

Secondly there are well designed tongs now days that simply do not injure the subject.

Thirdly, who cares if the snake is defensive if it is easy to catch it with the tongs without getting bitten? I can’t recall too many browns snake in a good mood after they have been tailed anyway.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

I care ..and I suppose that is why I wont use them .


----------



## saratoga (Mar 18, 2009)

PilbaraPythons said:


> First I would love to hear how highly experienced people who have tailed and caught elapids for years that have now see reason to use some brands of tongs are suddenly incompetent ?



I don't think anyone is suggesting this!

What I have said in another thread is that there are many people who are not confident with handling snakes and unfortunately many of these are using tongs with a false sense of safety and security...both for themselves and the snake!


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Mar 18, 2009)

Well if you care that much, then I suppose that is admirable.

I suppose I am from the opposite extremity in a way and in a nutshell believe that even if a dangerous snake is shot to remove a potentially dangerous threat, then so be it.
Human safety first, then the second priority is animal welfare. If both can be achieved without to much drama, then obviously I support that outcome.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

Actually Saratoga true blue did say exactly that...a person is not competent if they use tongs...this is not the question.....the question I asked.....can anyone provide proof that midwest gentle giant tongs actually do any harm to the snakes........anyone???


----------



## saratoga (Mar 18, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> So Dr. Bryan Fry is not competent.....hmmm one of the worlds leading venom researcher!!!



Being a leading researcher in this field unfortunately does not always equate with competency in animal welfare.

I'm not infering anything here with respect to Bryan Fry.....just stating one does not necessarily imply the other!


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

The downside of the Gentle Giant tongs is that they are fairly heavy and can be difficult to maneuver into small spaces where a snake might be hiding. They aren't the best choice of field tongs for these reasons, but they are excellent in the snake room for safely and gently moving animals around.
There are two other styles of tongs on the market. The Pilstrom style tongs are narrow and scissorlike, with the top jaw fitting inside a deep groove in the bottom jaw. I refer to these as "a snake chiropracter's nightmare" and suggest that they are good mainly for moving waterbowls and heavy cage furniture. An experienced handler can use them safely on snakes and some people like them very much for this purpose. However it is much too easy for someone less experienced to squeeze down hard enough to put harmful pressure on a snake's spine, so I don't generally recommend their use on live animals. I have personally seen and treated an uncomfortably large number of injuries to venomous snakes caused by inexperienced and frightened handlers using Pilstrom tongs. 



The Gentle Giant is unmatched for gentle, stress-free snake moving for everyday maintenance in your snake room, and can be used on large bodied snakes that none of the other tongs can handle safely. All three are durable tools that will give you many years of good use.​



Two different ways of grasping a snake with tongs are illustrated here. In the first photo above, Buddy is handling an adult Florida cottonmouth by holding her lower body and keeping the animal's body mostly supported on the ground. In the second illustration, a very bad tempered blacktail rattlesnake (Crotalus molossus) is being grasped around the upper part of his body in order to limit his strike range. His body is also being supported on the ground, and he will be pushed and dragged across the floor rather than picked high up off the ground. 
Ground support or the additional support of a hook is essential for heavy bodied pit vipers because their fragile spines can be dislocated or broken with their unsupported weight alone. Elapids and colubrids have much more tolerance for being lifted entirely off the ground with tongs, but they don't seem to enjoy it and may struggle more under tong restraint than they would on a hook.well straight from the horses mouth now:lol:



This image illustrates how a snake's body may be supported on a hook while the animal is being lifted with tongs. This decreases the pressure on the snake's spine. The lifting should still be as brief as possible. 
*Never grab a snake by the neck with tongs as this will cause pain, injury and increased struggling.* Grasp a smaller snake or a harmless snake midbody or lower. Grasp a large snake about 1/3 of the way down from the head to limit the distance it can strike at you. You may also try to tong a snake on the lower third of its body to drag it, but make sure that the tong is longer than the remaining length of snake. 
Regardless of which style tong you are using, try not to lift a snake fully off the ground with tongs for longer than a few seconds without some other form of body support. You can use the tongs most effectively to slowly drag a snake across the ground in a "come-along" hold, pushing the animal into the sturdy safety container you have ready for it. Try to bring the container to the snake rather than the other way around to keep your handling time and stress on the animal to a minimum.


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 18, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> I understand that some people do see the use of tongs as acceptable....but I am tired of arguing the fact they do not injure snakes......I want proof from these people of the damage they do......not defensive response of biting demonstrating stress....this can be shown with every technique......physical harm....physical damage.



I haven't read all the replies yet so sorry if I am repeating anything. But I use tongs occasionally and have used them well enough to not hurt the snake. I picked up a 4-5ft red belly after it had hit by a car. At the time appeared like it should have been put down. I handed him over to a carer who reported the snake making a full recovery and released 3 weeks later. This animal was bleeding from its mouth but the injury was at its tail end. So if one can recover from this, I really can't see how my grip on tongs could hurt a snake. The only downing I can give is that one time I used the tongs and while I had hold of the snake, the resident's dog ran in and attacked the snake. But that wasn't the fault of the tongs. That was my fault for not telling the ppl to restrain their dog. I have only used my tongs on 3 occasions and 2 out of 3 were successful rescues with minimal stress on the animals. 

I can understand ppl's concern that using a forceful grip could cause crushing injuries, but one thing I often consider is that if the equipment was dangerous to the animal, would it even be available on the market?

Commenting on the reply just before mine, I agree with him that supporting the snake with a hook while in the grip of tongs is probably crucial. When I attempted to pick up one snake in the tongs I felt the pressure on the tongs and believed it could also cause discomfort on the snake and used my hook to support his weight until I was able to bring him out into easier, workable area to get him in my bag.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

well even in the advertising they recommend the tongs only to be used in the SNAKE ROOM ...and make comment on how they struggle more then they do on a hook...and we have heavy set elapids in this Country too.


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 18, 2009)

I was just editting my post as you wrote your comment RBB and yes I agree there that they would struggle with the tongs because they are being restrained. I only use them if I think I need to. I have probably made to 10 call outs this spring/summer season to red bellies and have only used my tongs 3 times. But I know what you mean about ppl who know how to make the right call. Tongs make it too easy for ppl to handle venomous snakes that shouldn't be touching them. So these ppl don't get the proper training because they think they can safely remove them, but only considering the safety of themselves and not for the animal as well.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

I can understand ppl's concern that using a forceful grip could cause crushing injuries, but one thing I often consider is that if the equipment was dangerous to the animal, would it even be available on the market?.............hell yeah Kathy cause money means more then any venomous snake ever would


----------



## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 18, 2009)

When the tongs first came out, there was only the back breakers (pilstum type) available.
There is no shortage of proof of what these can do, specially in the hands of a person who has done a 2 day snake catchers co****, and only want to make a few bucks andbignote themselves.
The midwest gentle giants were not around in these days.
I was a ferocious opponent of these tongs and even though i have owned a set for he last 10 years or so, and i have them swathed in neprene and gaffa tape, and i keep them in the car,out of the 100s of snakes i catch i have only seen the need for their use in one or two situations.
unfortunatly they were in the car at the time and i made use of the hooks instead.
I have no proof of the gentle giants doing the same sort of damage the original pilstrums do, but unfortunatly the "proof" of damage might not show for day or even weeks after the capture.
Broken snake ribs are very fine and damage isnt evident straight way.
You can release your snake and in 2 weeks they will die of septic injuries form the injuries.
Like i said, the gentle giants are difinitly the better option if you must.
But only in experienced, proffesional hands.
Certainly never need them down here.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 18, 2009)

well then snakehandler ,even the gentle tong has its market uses as use in your reptile room ...to bad my callouts arent in my reptile room now ...and as far as the rest of the read if I wasnt already convinced of why I wouldnt I am now


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

RBB most people that purchase these in the states use them in reptile rooms,why target a small group of people such as snake catchers when you can target a much larger group such as venomous snake keepers...its called good marketing, however they are a useful tool. As I mentioned they cause stress, so does every technique out there, even hooking, sssnakeman you have evidence of pilstrum tong damage...what about gentle giants.

Injuries may show for up to a week later, hence the reason for 132 snakes studied over a summer, this included both xray and ultrasound to determine if there was any injury. Each snake was held for three weeks and then released with NO injury...I have proof to show that they do no physical damage....does any one out there have proof that the gentle giant tongs do harm?

So far we have seen Jonno change his mind and will now start to teach the use of tongs on the groups of OH&S, and many people stating they have used them when neccesary, but NO evidence of the harm that GG tongs do!


----------



## notechistiger (Mar 18, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> but one thing I often consider is that if the equipment was dangerous to the animal, would it even be available on the market?


 
Things like heat cords, mats and heat rocks can cause horrible injuries and even death in reptiles. However, there is little to no risk if used properly (eg. proper wattage and use of a thermostat). Is this not also true for tongs? An inexperienced keeper could burn the belly of a snake with a heat mat that is too strong, and that same keeper could break a snake's back or ribs by squeezing too tight when using tongs.


----------



## m.punja (Mar 18, 2009)

[video=youtube;brEyVyqBaCM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEyVyqBaCM[/video]

I know this clip is old and is still not evidence enough to suggest that the tongs are dangerous but I'd PAY top dollar to see if this snake was still living a healthy life. Interesting debate you have started snakehandler, though I can't be bothered reading most of it  I don't use tongs, but I believe people can do as they like, everyone has their own opinion and we can't force people to think the same way as ourselves. Besides if everyone used the exact same husbandry and handling then it'd get boring. It's good to be able to veiw other peoples ways because every now and then you learn something new.


----------



## m.punja (Mar 18, 2009)

Ok I have to be the first to admit, I know that it isn't just the tong technique that he needs to work on and if the snake had died it wouldn't just be because of the tongs. He needs to work on his overall snake catching methods.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

You also have to remember he is using the back breaking pilstrum tongs....once again we have been stating for years that these tongs are dangerous and need to be placed on the scrap heap, they are not GG tongs and would never be used by anyone we employ or used in any situation that we would be involved in......I can show videos of people using the technique of pinning and breaking the neck of a snake.....but that is not PROOF that GG tongs are dangerous to the health of a snake.


----------



## DonnB (Mar 18, 2009)

Snakehandler...Sounds to me you are just trying to sway ppl opinions so you can make a few extra sales. There may not be proof out there, but that doesnt mean anything to me. Im with RBB on this and think all tongs need to be scrapped.


----------



## TrueBlue (Mar 18, 2009)

pilbarapythons,- Dave its because they have gotten old and lost their balls. lol.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

Actually sales of tongs do not make much of a difference to me......what I am trying to ascertain is if there is any evidence that gg tongs have done any damage to any snake at any time......if it can be shown that these tongs cause physical damage we WILL STOP using them!


----------



## ihaveherps (Mar 18, 2009)

I fail to see the point of this thread..... pretends to be a debate, though is just an ego massage from someone who claims to have tested something asking for what would be non-existant clinical data to refute their tests....


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 18, 2009)

ihaveherps, the debate is to find out if anyone out there has done any study to prove that GG tongs cause damage...last time I spoke with a person in QLD after a meeting we had he mentioned that he was going to be testing them....Jonnno has been a long time opponent of tongs, yet he has tested them and will now use them in his courses....

There are alot of people who say they are brutal and cause damage....I am sick of having to prove they dont...its now time for those who claim brutality to stand up and show the proof....


----------



## Jonno from ERD (Mar 18, 2009)

Just to clarify - our choice of Gentle Giants wasn't because we think they are good, but because they aren't as bad as all the others. I tried some Raptors on the weekend and while they run second to Gentle Giants, they weren't up to scratch. We also tried the rest of Raptors gear - the hook was OK, very similar to what Geoff Coombe uses, but it was still quite fragile. The pinner was a disappointment - there is a huge market for a well made pinner and I was hoping Raptor would come to the table but unfortunately it didn't. It may work well for species such as Eastern Browns, but as soon as we tried to pin a 1.2m Kingy, it stuck it's chin into the table and pulled straight out from underneath. The tension was as tight as it could go and the two sprung arms were touching the table either side of the snake. The design of the hoop bag was good, with the angled handle and flat edged hoop, however it was a little flimsy and the opening was quite small.


----------



## Kirby (Mar 18, 2009)

Christopher51383 said:


> Tongs for BBQ snake, hooks for snakes.....



punctuation is necessary?


----------



## Inlandtaipan078 (Mar 18, 2009)

I havn't much experience with either but I use the gg"s and find them A bit more difficult to handle as apposed to the pilstum's, I would agree they are A better tong for begginers (safer for the snake) but i feel more comfortable with the older style if I have to use them at all!


----------



## ihaveherps (Mar 18, 2009)

Snakehandler, Im still not understanding where this is going. I personally see a place for tongs, some instances they are a necessary tool, as Pilbara said, Im all for human safety first, animal a very close second.... but I highly doubt that the study you are asking for exists, as I am sure you are aware. Though I am totally against tongs as a be all and end all as a tool for catching vens. You brought up scenarios where pinners have broken necks, I am positive that these Gentle Giant tongs can indeed inflict damage when used incorrectly as well.... i promise that if you got me the ethical paperwork, the subject animals, and the tongs, I could definitely prove that I could cause damage, possibly even lethal damage, and would document it all for you if you wish. All in all I guess what I am trying to say is that Gentle Giant tongs arent a magical tool that is impervious to human error, just like no other method of capture is. 

Kirby.... if you are going to rag on and punctuate someones sentence, at least get it right yourself.


----------



## cement (Mar 18, 2009)

Theres an old saying "a good tradie never blames his tools". In fact a good carpenter should still be capable of good carpentry even with a third rate tool kit. The reason is because he understands the job on a much deeper level and knows the limits and capability of tools and the science of materials. In other words he goes by feel rather then intellect.

The same goes for snakehandlers. A good handler should be able to do the job with any tool and sometimes make do with whats at hand. If you feel out of water because you don't have your favourite hook then your relying on your attachment to something, rather then your ability.

Is this just a big plug for gentle giants tongs? If you like them then good for you. I don't get this thread.


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 18, 2009)

cement said:


> ......The same goes for snakehandlers. A good handler should be able to do the job with any tool and sometimes make do with whats at hand. If you feel out of water because you don't have your favourite hook then your relying on your attachment to something, rather then your ability.......



That is a very good point. That is probably what I wanted to say when I mentioned earlier about untrained ppl using them, thinking they can go out and catch snakes because they have a set of these. Tongs give ppl false sense of security and they think they don'tneed to undergo proper training to catch the animals safely and humanely. And its ppl like these who give the rest of us bad names because they are only considering their own safety without too much care for the animal's welfare - mostly because they know no better.


----------



## -Peter (Mar 18, 2009)

I cant comment as I have, contrary to the claims of one RH, never used a pair of snake tongs of any make or model. Never had the need, yet.
Dave Williams uses them. I respect why he does.


----------



## tomcat88 (Mar 18, 2009)

m.punja said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEyVyqBaCM.


 

wow that vid is messed up


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree that people need to have correct training to work with tongs, hooks, tailing and pinning....that is not what this thread is asking....it is a simple question....besides all the anecdotal evidence is there any proof.

ihaveherps....why not get the paperwork yourself...I had to do it to proove that they didnt cause harm....if people out there what to condemn a piece of equipment based on opinion only then you have no chance....base it on facts.....I am not trying to drum up sales, I have no interest in midwest, I am trying to ascertain if there is any data out there to show the damage done by GG tongs when they are used by trained people.....or any people.....also ihaveherps I can go out of my way to show you how a hook can damage a snake too, or even techniques such as pinning and tailing, what I am after is the actions of a reasonable person who is competent with the tools they have been given, what damage is caused by GG tongs...thats it plain and simple.

If you can't give me fact, and you dont know how to get it then how am I supposed to get a balanced report. As mentioned before I have done the study to show the effect of these tongs. I have the data, I went to the expense, and the whole jist of the experiment was to determine if GG tongs caused physical harm to a snake, it was not to proove they did no harm. The outcome after a year of study was NO.....only then did we use them outside of the study....if the answer was yes the study would have stopped and the tongs never used elsewhere by ourselves.


----------



## saratoga (Mar 19, 2009)

A video using pilstrom tongs...yes, yes I know...not gentle giants.

[video=youtube;r5cgHpFolDw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5cgHpFolDw[/video]

I think its some type of Tiger Snake from Africa

One of the big problems I see with tongs comes not just from the pressure put on the snake by the clamping action, but from the threat of being grabbed and clamped. The snake will then often wrap around the tongs and use the coils to try and pull itself from them. I think this is particularly the case if grabbed near the head(not good practice anyhow). Also the snake will often thrash around and try to bite whatever it can thats hurting it.

A black snake in a photo on your website has damaged neck scales consistent with trying to pull back through a set of tongs. Not suggesting this applies in this case, it could also have been caused by other factors; but at any rate probably not the best choice of image to use as a lead into your webpage.


Has this guy got hold of the head or the tail?... and he's a trained snake relocator according the article. Why on earth would you use tongs in an open area like this?...if at all






I'm still pretty hard pressed to justify the use of tongs except in exceptional circumstances.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

Saratoga, that black snake you mention was actually photograped just after being released from mono filament bird netting...not anything to do with handling techniques. It was photographed years before the tongs were even part of what we have in our handling equipment...get your facts straight before trying to throw mud. 

Where do you get off by making false allegations????

Tongs are a last resort method of capture and should only ever be used when there is no alternative...this is something that I have been saying all along.

The photo you show is a person holding a snake whilst working for a company....OH&S will state that hands off techniques are preferred and due to the lack of perceived control hooking is not the number one method of capture....

And why would anyone attempt the grab so close to the head of a snake....that has too many potential risks associated with it, not only missing the snake, but also the serious potential of damage to the head........

The photo i one of eight banners that scroll through...yes it has marks on the back of its neck...probably not the best choice of photos....but we have not changed it simply because we have seen no need to, apart from you and one of Melbourne based snake catcher this has never been an issue......


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 19, 2009)

snakehandler are you able to put up a vid of you using the "gentle giant tongs " showing how you catch and relocate a wild ven ? just so we see the other side of the coin ,cause we all know the pilstrom tongs are simply mutilators..at least then we can visualise what your saying ,as we are all familiar with the hook and tail method ...


----------



## moosenoose (Mar 19, 2009)

m.punja said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brEyVyqBaCM
> 
> I know this clip is old and is still not evidence enough to suggest that the tongs are dangerous but I'd PAY top dollar to see if this snake was still living a healthy life. Interesting debate you have started snakehandler, though I can't be bothered reading most of it  I don't use tongs, but I believe people can do as they like, everyone has their own opinion and we can't force people to think the same way as ourselves. Besides if everyone used the exact same husbandry and handling then it'd get boring. It's good to be able to veiw other peoples ways because every now and then you learn something new.




To be honest I was going to search for the same video as a prime example of tongs in the hands of someone who doesn't give a crap about the animals welfare.

Whilst I find people like Austin Stevens annoying with their staged shows, he seems to love his tongs, and when he does use them, seldom does he close them. 

I think with a bit of compassion about what you're doing with them, you can go a long way in using them safely on the animal. Grabbing wildly with loads of sticks and bark in with the snake would undoubtably cause serious injury to whatever is being rescued. I'm not totally convinced they are a bad thing to have around - the jury is out as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

RBB, I have pm'd you as to the reason that I am not posting a video with tonging, one of the main reasons however is that we do not wish for people to attempt a technique without learning it properly first. This may sound like a cop out but I feel strongly about this and will not show video on any forum at any time of myself or my staff handling elapids. 

You mentioned very in another series of posts that a person saw a documentary that showed a person using a set of tongs, he then used garbage tongs to attempt to remove a snake.....why then are you asking me to show video when you yourself say that it is irresponsible???


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 19, 2009)

I know what I said S ,but was just asking you ,as a professional can show the right way of using these tongs ..and explaining in your vid the do;s and donts etc ...was not trying to drag this debate on was simply asking you ...and like you said no matter what they have on the market wether we agree or not there will always be the cowboys that take matters into there own hands ,I think that is partly why I am against the tongs as well ,it makes the cowboys of this particular world more accessible to being the HERO of the day so to speak ...but you have stated why you wont fair enough ..


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

RBB while I agree you the sentiment, the instructional nature of the videos we have cannot be shown on this site as I am NOT a sponsor....you would require Jonno to do such a thing at this stage. There are cowboys out there now that will pin snakes just cos they can and because they ahve seen many people such at Rob Bredle do it for years on tv.


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 19, 2009)

I am confused now. What are "gentle giant tongs". Looking at that video Saratoga posted, I have the tongs that are shown in that clip. Are they the tongs that ppl consider cruel? I am still yet to alter mine, wrapping some foam around one of the prong thingies, but luckily I haven't needed to use them now.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

The ones shown are called pilstum tongs, gentle giant tongs are very different. The picture attached shows the head of the gentle giant tongs....they are a flat plate which does not meet when closed, not very useful on small snakes for that reason!


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 19, 2009)

[video=youtube;TmxY4WZ535A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmxY4WZ535A[/video]
can you imagine if these fools got there hands on a set of tongs...........no species of snake would be safe


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

yes but can you imagine if they are allowed to breed?


----------



## saratoga (Mar 19, 2009)

I didn't say the damage had been caused by tongs.....I couldn't possibly know that.

What I did say was "consistent with" and "not suggesting it applies in this case" and "could have been caused by other factors"



saratoga said:


> AThis black snake has damaged neck scales consistent with trying to pull back through a set of tongs. Not suggesting this applies in this case, it could also have been caused by other factors; but at any rate probably not the best choice of image to use as a lead into a webpage.



and yes monofilament netting would be one of those other causes, also things like getting stuck in beer cans.

As such I have not made any false allegations.... your photo was simply used to illustrate a point.

However your above post has now raised further questions
you say


snakehandler said:


> Tongs are a last resort method of capture and should only ever be used when there is no alternative...this is something that I have been saying all along.



but then go on to say



snakehandler said:


> OH&S will state that hands off techniques are preferred and due to the lack of perceived control hooking is not the number one method of capture....



So if tongs are a last resort, hooking is not the number one method of capture, and OH&sS states that hands off is the preferred technique......what do use to relocate snakes. 

What is the number one method?

With regard to the photo of the black snake...I don't have any problem with it on your site. As a photographer and if it was my site I would not post a picture like that unless it specifically related to damage inflicted by netting or whatever and I explained that. I just don't think you are doing yourself any favours with that photo......why not replace it with one of a nice healthy looking specimen......it only looks better then in the eyes of the public...and with the general public perception of snakes...that can only be a good thing!


----------



## No-two (Mar 19, 2009)

This is the stupidest thread, why're you even bothering SH, you've allready stated many times they don't cause harm and you obviously love them, seems like a big plug for GG to me aswell. 

How did you conduct such a experiment? Did you use them in different ways for different things? Or was it the same over and over? Cause then you just wasted a year, may aswell have just done it once.


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 19, 2009)

RBB I can't say here, what I think of them idiots. He shouldn't be playing with the snake, obviously he is scared of it - and these kind of ppl are the ones I am talking about, who get hold of tongs will think they are King Almighty and suddenly know everything there is to know about catching snakes.

He only needed to let go of the python's head and it would have released its grip on him arm :lol:


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 19, 2009)

My preferred method of capture is the one that suits the situation...the one that best fits with all the conditions that I am confronted with, many cases this in tonging, OH&S statements for large organisations are to cover their butts, I am insured to use all methods of handling both public laibility and income protection.

The last method I consider is actually pinning...due to the nature of the technique.

The study was completed on 132 different snakes over a 12 month period, examining the use of one tool only, each snake was taken from the wild on a snake call out, held for a period of time so that it could be examined by an independant vet, this involved both xray and ultraound. We used it to determine if what we had been told was correct. I do not love the tool, I just understand taht there is sometimes a need for it and would prefer to use a piece of equipment that is not going to damage the snake. I tested no other tongs as I did not like the way they worked and the potential damage. When looking into it we tried pilstrum tongs on a piece of paper, it shredded the paper...instantly it was disregarded....if it can do that to paper what chance a snake.

W are looking at the range of techniques available and the damage or stress that it creates, this is to help put forward handling techniques that are safer for the handler and the snake.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 19, 2009)

mysnakesau said:


> RBB I can't say here, what I think of them idiots. He shouldn't be playing with the snake, obviously he is scared of it - and these kind of ppl are the ones I am talking about, who get hold of tongs will think they are King Almighty and suddenly know everything there is to know about catching snakes.
> 
> He only needed to let go of the python's head and it would have released its grip on him arm :lol:


 lol it was more of the commentry Kath that was a wow factor ..after his catching and head holding and being bitten and chasing his sister or g/f and his meathead mates laughing he asks "is it venomous?"and "i dont know what type of snake it is" ....:shock::shock:.at least he didnt kill it so 1 jellybean for this numbnut


----------



## Serpentes_15 (Mar 20, 2009)

No-two said:


> This is the stupidest thread, why're you even bothering SH, you've allready stated many times they don't cause harm and you obviously love them, seems like a big plug for GG to me aswell.
> 
> How did you conduct such a experiment? Did you use them in different ways for different things? Or was it the same over and over? Cause then you just wasted a year, may aswell have just done it once.



"Plug for GG"?... I fail to see how this compares with them being used as a last resort and only when necesarry. Im sure if you looked up the snakehandler website, as i have just done, you would realise there is little affiliation with midwest tongs, so it's not as if they are in any sort of partnership.

Yours was a stupid question as it's allready been pointed out several times why snakehandler is "bothering". Tongs are obviously a tool used in their bussiness which many people object to. It's been noted that this somewhat circular argument is getting annoying and as an owner of a bussiness snakehandler obviously are looking for evidence that backs the opposing argument. That was the only reason for the thread and it's the only reason i read it. Frankly im pissed off that i had to read everyones opinions to get to this point and still read nothing of interest that was actually to do with the topic of the thread. 

Furthermore, if you new anything about scientific method you would understand that replicates are necessary for testing a hypothesis to minimise chance events and variables, therefore it would have been useless to test once and rely on inaccurate results as conclusive evidence... Im no expert in science but this i learnt in year 10 several years ago and assumed it was common knowledge.


----------



## BlindSnake (Mar 20, 2009)

Snakehandler - You asked for proof...

Im not sure if this has already been mentioned, as I tired of the thread and its tone by early pge 3 - but I can put you in contact with someone who was handling and teaching others to handle before most of us were in nappies, who USED to use tongs...until he broke one of his snakes neck/back using them. He no longer uses them, himself or in his courses.

Before anyone even suggests that the injury was due to his incompetence, well, all I can say is I really, REALLY dont think so...

Although the use of tongs may go without incident for many, it does not mean that injury can not occur, and after all, isnt that what we are supposed to be about..minimising potential harm?.. Its worth thinking about.. Whether that means minimising their use, or not relying on them at all.

I know there ar now tongs which are more 'gentle' but the problem lies in the restraint of a snake at a fixed point, esp in the upper body.

Unless the restraint is directly behind the head, the snake can have the oppertunity to turn back to bite violently, thus breaking the neck/back, as was the case in this instance.

If you are genuine in your intrest, please feel free to shoot me a pm, and I can give you more detail, or put you in contact. Im sure he would be happy to share his xperience.

I am not putting forward an argument for either side, why bother? There has already been enough of that, and ppl will do what they think is best regardless - I am just providing what you asked for, which is proof of injury during proper use..

..and please remember, just because you as a question on APS, dosnt mean you will get all the answers or hear about every incidence of injury! The majority of really serious feild herpers and teachers that I know, are way to busy to spend time in forums!


----------



## BlindSnake (Mar 20, 2009)

PS.. When I said that unless the snake is restrained directly behind the head, I was not suggesting this is what should be done with tongs, I was trying to point out that if grabbed further down the neck/body, it provides the oppertunity for violent striking backtowards the tongs, or thrashing in general.

When I reas it back again I realised it may not come across as I meant it.


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks blindsnake, I am after these details and I will pm you for more information. A quick question for you in pulbic though...where they pilstrum tongs or gentle giant tongs.....as I have also seen horrific damage done by older style tongs and would never touch them except to show how much damage they can do to a sheet of paper. Until three months ago when a person gave me his old tongs and purchased GG tongs I had never even owned a set of pilstrum tongs for that exct reason. I have seen snakes mutilated by them, shredded and broken bones are not uncommon. 

Personally I would have never used pilstrum tongs unless I was picking up rubbish. 

This was why we spent a year investigating the claims of midwest and their GG tongs to find out if they where truely as good as they claimed. I have seen no physical damage to the snakes and have discussed this with many zoos who also use them to great effect.

Again what I am saying is tongs are a last resort tool, if you need to use them then the tool should be the most humane available.....if not then they should be banned!


----------



## waruikazi (Mar 20, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> Actually RBB I have seen a brown launch at a hook and attempt to bite it. A person does not complete a course just by being able to do one technique, they must show competence in all techniques. I can show you defensive action from snakes with every technique used. I can also show you snakes that do not respond defensively to the tongs....in the wild....the technique when taught correctly does not "clamp"down any harder than when you use the technique of tailing....it is just further up the body. Before you condem a technique you should research your information about all techniques and attempt them all over a period of time.
> 
> Even with this statement I am yet to see any proof that tongs create harm to a snake.......again RBB you have been successful in getting a defense response....but not one piece of evidence has surfaced....SHOW ME PROOF!



BOLLOCKS!!!

Go to any mine in the Northern Territory and all the miners (well alot anyway) are trained snake relocators. They are taught only the tong and jigger (combined) method. I have used tongs in certain situations, I don't beleive the gentle giants are as safe for the snake as they are made out to be. All tongs need to be modified with padding before they can safely be used on a snake. Like in this picture...


----------



## -Peter (Mar 20, 2009)

Ya wimp Gordo, hands on man, hands on.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 20, 2009)

So are you 100% sure that clamping down on that snake hasnt broken or crushed anything?


----------



## snakehandler (Mar 20, 2009)

waruikazi already detailed the methods of inspection to determine if injury was done...earlier in the thread.


----------



## BlindSnake (Mar 20, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> Thanks blindsnake, I am after these details and I will pm you for more information. A quick question for you in pulbic though...where they pilstrum tongs or gentle giant tongs.....as I have also seen horrific damage done by older style tongs and would never touch them except to show how much damage they can do to a sheet of paper. Until three months ago when a person gave me his old tongs and purchased GG tongs I had never even owned a set of pilstrum tongs for that exct reason. I have seen snakes mutilated by them, shredded and broken bones are not uncommon.
> 
> Personally I would have never used pilstrum tongs unless I was picking up rubbish.
> 
> ...


 

I believe they may have been midwest, (not GG) but definatly dont quote me, I would have to ask him again.

As I said before, it is not nec the width or whether the tong edge is metal or not - When an animal is firmly restrained at a fixed point and panics, ithere is a chance that it can twist back violently, and break their back.

This is where the individual keeper must weigh up their will to do no harm, with the level of percieved risk to themselves, and make their own decision.

Whatever ppls opinions are, Im sure we can all agree that tongs can be great for moving things around, and grabbing or moving stuff out of tanks etc.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 20, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> So are you 100% sure that clamping down on that snake hasnt broken or crushed anything?


 doesn't take much to fracture . i would bet my bottom dallor they have, they are my last option, yes i have used one a couple of times but i hardly had any presure on the little critter and it was still moving through the grip strait into a bag. I dont care if any one doesnt like my methods cause at the end of the day im doing a goodthing and i havent hurt one snake in my whole entire life and im just an angle dont do any thing wrong:evil:


----------



## waruikazi (Mar 20, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> So are you 100% sure that clamping down on that snake hasnt broken or crushed anything?



If this question is aimed at me no i'm not sure that is didn't damage the snake but i am confident it didn't do any permanent damage or cause any major injury. That snake was caught without hooks, jiggers or tongs. The tongs were only used for the photo shoot because it was the only way to safely take a photo like that.


----------



## Vincent (Mar 21, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> i belive anyone that HAS to use them to catch a wild snake is NOT competent and should not be relocating snakes in the first place. Simple.



I have to agree with Rob here. I believe tongs ( Of any type ) have brought people, without the necessary handling ability and dangerous snakes together. In earlier times these people would never have considered messing with these animals. 

But, on the other side of the fence, as Dave says, some competent handlers use them as well these days. Maybe Rob's right again with his opinion on this matter.

I guess i'm old fashioned and a purist in my belief that if you cant catch a snake without tongs, you shouldnt be near it in the first place. Regardless if tongs do damage or not. Maybe blokes like Rob and myself, plus others with similiar views are dinosaurs, out of touch with todays opinions. 

I can live with that.


----------



## redbellybite (Mar 21, 2009)

ShaneBlack said:


> I have to agree with Rob here. I believe tongs ( Of any type ) have brought people, without the necessary handling ability and dangerous snakes together. In earlier times these people would never have considered messing with these animals.
> 
> But, on the other side of the fence, as Dave says, some competent handlers use them as well these days. Maybe Rob's right again with his opinion on this matter.
> 
> ...


obviously I am one of the JURASSIC members too then


----------



## pythons73 (Mar 21, 2009)

This threat could go on for days,theres ppl on both sides of the fence here,If you do use these tongs or vice-versa you cannot change someones mind over night.


----------



## solar 17 (Mar 21, 2009)

*tongs or not*

pythons 73...l agree this thread is like religion and capitol punishment....everybody has turned up with a firm opinion on the subject and that aint going change....overnight anyway....solar 17 [Baden]


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 21, 2009)

I can see the argument on both sides. I don't disagree with the tongs but the ppl using them still should have proper training & the right mind to work with venomous snakes. Bignoters don't care for the animal's welfare. I have done training to catch and release and the more work I get the more confident I am getting and although have carried the tongs with me, so far have not used them at all now 6 months. Of the 3 times I have used them, I can now see that there was probably only one occasion I really needed them and that was to get a wet, slippery red belly out of a hole full of water.


----------



## TrueBlue (Mar 21, 2009)

mysnakesau, a branch for the red belly to climb on would of done the trick eliminating the use of tongs once again.

Shane ,- i can also live with that, and agree 100% with what you have said. Now that these horrible tongs are available there are people relocating snakes that would never of ever thought about catching vens. 
False sence of security at the animals expense.


----------



## mysnakesau (Mar 21, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> mysnakesau, a branch for the red belly to climb on would of done the trick eliminating the use of tongs once again.
> 
> Shane ,- i can also live with that, and agree 100% with what you have said. Now that these horrible tongs are available there are people relocating snakes that would never of ever thought about catching vens.
> False sence of security at the animals expense.



Well, I would never have thought of using a branch. I will remember trick that for future reference.

I also agree totally with your comment about ppl catching snakes that would never otherwise do it.


----------



## TrueBlue (Mar 21, 2009)

mysnakesau,- a branch with some vegetation on the end works best as there are lots of twigs/leaves to help the snake to balance a bit more and also helps it to feel like its got some where to hide.


----------



## Serpentes_15 (Mar 22, 2009)

If someone can't handle vens using all methods that may be needed in any given situation then they should not attempt to do so. On the other hand it is better to have people use tongs that are far more gentle and proven not to cause harm as apposed to tongs such as the pilstrum tongs that have been proven to cause extreme damage. These people are going to use tongs either way so it may as well be the types that are proven not to cause harm.

A person may be capable of dealing with a tiger or rbb in a given situation but myabe not be able to deal with a brown snake tangeld up in nylon mesh.

If tongs are the best method in this situation, and they can be used in a way that will cause no damage to the animal and at the same time minimise the risk to the handler, is this not a better alternative than someone blowing its head off with a shotgun or bringing out the shovel. 

There are snakes everywhere in australia, but not that many people capable of dealing with a pissed off brown. if it comes between a snake having its head chopped off by some farmer or, in the case of some bloke that is sick of killing them, being picked up and moved by a pair of tongs i know which one i would prefer. 

bottom line not everyone wants to hurt snakes (allthough there are far to many that do) but sometimes people cannot use methods such as tailing or hooking, due to a lack of experience, or a very tricky situation and would use gg tongs instead. In the case of someone choosing between "ill either tong it and take it away or kill it", surely tongs would be prefered over the alternative.

I know there not the best method but admit If its necessary its better than a dead snake or person.


----------



## Serpentes_15 (Mar 22, 2009)

Just so its clear i also agree that all people attempting to handle vens should first be trained and in the proper mindset to do so and that people should not use tongs with a false sense of security without proper respect for the animal and the danger it may present.


----------



## Inlandtaipan078 (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm with you mr black if you can't catch a snake without tongs why bother this thread seems to be fadeing yes tongs need to be tought and the safety of the catcher and snake is paramount there will always be some drongo with no regard for the snakes wellbeing so we need to teach them how in the most humane way possible to use tongs and I would beleive gg's are the one to use or (keep in your boot)


----------



## snakehandler (Apr 14, 2009)

If any person has photos or video of injuries due to mishandling of reptiles both to the handler and the snake, can you please pm me the details...we are trying to look at overall safety of techniques


----------



## redbellybite (Apr 14, 2009)

snakehandler said:


> If any person has photos or video of injuries due to mishandling of reptiles both to the handler and the snake, can you please pm me the details...we are trying to look at overall safety of techniques


 only one problem with that request ...photo's cant show up imcompetence.....


----------



## cris (Apr 14, 2009)

The only way you could hurt a snake with tongs is by careless use, regardless of what tool you use it wont hurt the snake if you use it carefully.

I agree that some of the tongs are poorly designed, but that doesnt mean that it isnt possible to design good ones or modify them. It wouldnt be too hard to design tongs that could grip and hold a snake as safely as a persons hand.


----------



## snakehandler (Apr 14, 2009)

Sorry Cris and RBB, I am not trying to reignite the debate, it is done and dusted, I am trying to get images of damage caused to either the handler or the snake and with the photographers permission reproduce them in powerpoint presentations to demonstrate the potential for each technique to cause harm...I do not have any such images and would appreciate it if people did.

I understand people's view point and have read carefully what has been posted, I have taken it on board and wish to ensure that people are fully aware of what can happen with different tools (both equipment and person)


----------



## Pandora Pythons (Apr 14, 2009)

Sorry snakehandler, no proof or anything like that, but I have been reading this thread right through and have found it very interesting and useful in building further knowledge for myself when it comes to snake handling techniques, so for those that think this thread is a waste of time...I have to disagree! (Thanks for posting SH)

One thing I did learn however after completing one of Jonno's vens snaking handling courses, that it's not that hard to incorrectly tail a snake (Jonno would remember threatening us with a crack across the knuckles with his hook if he seen us grabbing a tail too low ). Grab the tail end too low while the snake is thrashing around and it could do permanent damage to the snake. I personally found that your eyes are more fixed on the pissed off end rather than the tail end, so it's not hard to misjudge a tail grab. Sure you can adjust your hand positioning, but it only takes a split second for an incorrect grab and for the snake to whip it's tail (and you can guess the rest). 

So damage done via tongs or by handling techniques? Personally I think there would be more proof of people causing damage to snakes with their incorrect handling or tailing technique than there would be tongs! But I don't think there would be anyone on here with the balls to admit their stuff-ups when it came to handling a snake incorrectly which ended up causing injury to the animal?

Cheers and thanks again snakehandler for posting


----------



## PilbaraPythons (Apr 14, 2009)

I would also be interested in the use of such pics and for exactly the same reason.

Regards Dave


----------



## snakehandler (Apr 14, 2009)

Any incorrect handling technique that has caused damage please....after reading through this thread I really want to be able to educate people on the risks of each technique, pictures speak 1000 words!


----------



## Sturdy (Apr 14, 2009)

from my point of view, i wouldnt use tongs. 
just feels like cheating to me, dont know what other people think but yeah, it simply just feels like it takes the skill out of handling....


----------



## redbellybite (Apr 14, 2009)

Pandora Pythons said:


> Sorry snakehandler, no proof or anything like that, but I have been reading this thread right through and have found it very interesting and useful in building further knowledge for myself when it comes to snake handling techniques, so for those that think this thread is a waste of time...I have to disagree! (Thanks for posting SH)
> 
> One thing I did learn however after completing one of Jonno's vens snaking handling courses, that it's not that hard to incorrectly tail a snake (Jonno would remember threatening us with a crack across the knuckles with his hook if he seen us grabbing a tail too low ). Grab the tail end too low while the snake is thrashing around and it could do permanent damage to the snake. I personally found that your eyes are more fixed on the pissed off end rather than the tail end, so it's not hard to misjudge a tail grab. Sure you can adjust your hand positioning, but it only takes a split second for an incorrect grab and for the snake to whip it's tail (and you can guess the rest).
> 
> ...


 plenty of pictures on here with people incorrectly handling snakes ...but if you say anything your the one flamed ,not the person doing wrong by the snake .....getting pictures of damage caused by 'tongs ' will be difficult on here ,as the people ,like myself ,that are against them dont use them ,so no pictures available,and the people that claim that they are all good ,wont put up pictures of their stuff ups cause that defeats their argument..


----------



## snakehandler (Apr 14, 2009)

That is why I am asking for pm's....these pictures are not going to be published on this site for that exact reason


----------



## moosenoose (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't think any of these guys survived :lol: (Is that last bloke sporting a blonde mullet??)


----------



## snakehandler (Apr 14, 2009)

no...i would call that a serious case of mishandling!


----------



## eipper (Jun 9, 2009)

Sean,

If you seriously believe that tongs do not cause harm to snakes if used under instruction.....

then why is it that you use rubber snakes to teach people "tonging" on snakes, as you said in an editorial letter in the Chicago herp society Bull.

Its seems to me that you are saying on one hand that tongs don't harm snakes and yet your teaching with tongs is with rubber snakes due to risks with damaging live snakes

So what is it? 

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## DonnB (Jun 9, 2009)

Well said Eipper.


----------



## snakehandler (Jun 9, 2009)

With the number of people in a course that would be tonging a snake this would create stress, we would ideally have one snake per person when using tongs, I would use live snakes if DSE would allow me to keep more than 10 of any one species code(as per demonstrator permit regulations in Vic) for this part of the course.

As mentioned about tongs previously, it does create stress and we aim to minimize stress, it has nothing to do with physical harm, you have taken one small part out of a much larger letter, next time put it in context, see the extract below:

Snakehandler policy on teaching the use of tongs is simple:
Tongs are a tool to be used as a last resort along with pinning, look at all other alternatives before attempting either technique
due to the increased stress response from the animal and the potential risk of damage. This is emphasized in our training by
the fact we only use rubber snakes to practice tonging on; we do not allow people to use live snakes as this technique has too
many possible risks that should be avoided if possible.

You will note two things, increased stress response and potential risk of damage, we acknowledge the risk of damage and only us one brand of tongs as they have been demonstrated thus far to be the least likely to cause damage, Scott you stated to me just last year you wanted to test if they did infact cause harm, have you done this yet?


----------



## seanjbkorbett (Jun 9, 2009)

my names sean aswell!..:|..hahahahah


----------



## eipper (Jun 10, 2009)

Sean,

I am not trying to incite an argument however....

Many handling methods induce stress, if you were concerned about causing serious stress and stress related injuries to your snakes then why would you have novices handling snakes in the first place?

I am currently sorting out paper work (animal ethics approval and scientific permits) to sort out the tonging of snakes....I want to conduct this on wild snakes to get "real" data as opposed to possible false postives/negatives due to using captive snakes.

I have been catching and working with snakes for quite awhile now and I am still yet to find an reason or be put in a situation when I have required to use a set of tongs....or put it another way.....If the snake catcher is competent enough there is most likely no need to use tongs.

I left parts out of the letter out as they were irrelevant to the point I was making, I would be happy to post the whole letter if you like?

Regards,
Scott Eipper


----------



## snakehandler (Jun 10, 2009)

As you will note Scott, the relevant section has been pasted in my last post, the letter was in response to a vitriolic attack by another person here in Victoria that required a reply. I don't think that it is appropriate to post the whole letter as you mention it is not relevant.

I just hope that any study done is not biased, which already appears to be the case, btw as mentioned throughout this thread, many of my clients are actually obliged by OH&S Act to use non-contact methods of control (no hands on), where ever possible. We do teach the use of them, but we also emphasize that they are a last resort technique and all other options should be investigated first. Tongs are not the answer to safe handling techniques, only experience will make a fully competent handler, this cannot be gathered in two days, two weeks, two months or even two years, it is a lifetime of work. Even the best handlers have bad days! Any good quality course will emphasize this from the start, our own statement is that the completion of our course is the start of a long learning journey.

Just to clarify, rubber snakes are only used for techniques which are known to cause stress or potential harm, all other techniques use live snakes including venomous snakes. I find it interesting that people are so anti-tong, as the old equipment does cause injury, yet pinning is fine.

There are several cases of TV personalities and other experienced handlers injuring and killing snakes due to pinning, and also getting serious bites while pinning. So why do the same people who hate tongs, like pinning? In both cases correct training will reduce the risks to both animal and handler, but poor technique will cause harm!


----------



## Stranger (Jun 10, 2009)

IMO. Tongs Have there place in every snake catchers Kit. I believe it should be left to the individual alone to decide weather the tongs are needed as in some cases they are. Ive seen tongs used to get Browns Out of Pipes. where hooks probably wouldnt have fitted. So i beileve in some cases tongs are suitible.


----------



## redbellybite (Jun 10, 2009)

Sean ,I dont like pinning ...and 99.9% of the time no need imo...however in the 4 +years that I have held my DM ,I have only pinned once ,because at the time ,that was my only alternative,and admit didnt even think to use a tube ...the senario was a 4 foot eb caught up in old carpet ,it had twisted itself and weaved in and out of the old ruffled carpet and the thread was cutting into parts of the snake ,totally stuck ..except for about 20cm of the bitey end thrashing around ,like a hose let loose with water ,had to cut it out of the carpet but as you can imagine bit of a dangerous call with the head ..so pinned the head ,whilst cutting the carpet ...thinking now couldve used tubing much more gentle on a stressed snake ...wont get into the tong debate with you as you know my views already ..but have to side with Scott ...imo ..if you take time to think about it you can always find another alternative ..then using tongs.


----------



## CraigColeman (Jun 10, 2009)

Give me a pair of GG tongs, and I bet I can go kill a snake with them. Like alot of people have said, it all depends on the person using the equipment. Weather there is proof or not, or weather it has happened or not, of casue any method of catching a snake can cause injury. Im pretty sure if someone on this forum was man handling a snake with GG tongs and hurt it, they are not about to admit it here.

Also, since when did pinning a snake become the pracitse of cowboys?


----------



## CraigColeman (Jun 10, 2009)

Pinning IMO is an essential part of keeping Elaipds, and anyone that works with venomous snakes needs to be able to do it at a minimum.

Id like to see you force feed, medicate, probe etc etc an elapid from a hook or tongs.


----------



## eipper (Jun 10, 2009)

Sean,

I am personally on the side of anti tong, however that said that is my personal preference.....I also prefer my coffee with with 2 sugars, however just because I prefer something does not mean that I am biased.

The whole point of getting a scientific research permit and animal ethics approval is to answer the question....If tongs when used in a normal manner cause undue harm or stress? I think that there is good chance that they could be used safely but that will be up to the results...By all means I will be sending you a copy of the work when its completed, but be aware this will take time.

I have seen plenty of people use them in captive collections....they are fantastic for feeding off rats/mice to large snakes, goannas and crocodilians. However as I have said before that I still wonder the place of them in a competent snakes handlers kit.

For example there are products Like "hexarmor" gloves, tubes, hooks, jiggers (if used properly will not harm snakes), hoop bags. Like everything if used incorrectly can cause harm and stress.

Also as a side note: The issues you have with the person in the letter are between you and him, I am not about to get into it, not my place and quite frankly I could care less it was the statement about tongs that I found relevant.

Craig,

I use tubes for medication and probing its easier and less stressful for both concerned.....for oral examination, on the occasions I have milked snakes, oral medication and for assist and force feeding I use a jigger or a potato mash jigger dependant upon the species involoved.

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## CraigColeman (Jun 10, 2009)

I consider using a "potato masher" or similar implement to pin the snakes head/neck, still pinning. And either way, pinning elapids, weather you use the technique or not, is something anyone who considered themselves an elapid handler should be able to do IMO.


----------

