# Jungle Cross GTP



## Rupes (Jul 23, 2006)

Hi, 
just posting to see if anyone has any photos of a Jungle X GTP, i saw some picture of this last year, but can not find them no my hard drive,
Just if anyone has the pics can u please post them.
Cheers Tammy


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## Parko (Jul 23, 2006)

No that would be the JPXGTP.


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## reptililian (Jul 23, 2006)

Sounds like something a rev-head p-plated would hot up!

I have heard of a guy in Sydney who is attempting this. Rupes, were the pics you saw of animals here in Australia?


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## Rupes (Jul 23, 2006)

some guy in Qlds had a clutch..,, i cant find the picture or the website!! thats why i asked.. like a year ago.. they looked like very nice/ diffrent.. also about the same time i was chatting to a qlds jungle breeder he also mentioned so and so jungle cross green, and i was yeh i seen the pics on the net.. and now i cant find them


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

These are from another forum. Carprodos - Hybrid mongrels. I think they are ugly myself.


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

I like my snakes pure.


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## reptililian (Jul 24, 2006)

Hmmm, those colours don't really appeal to me either!


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

They are called Carprondos. 
I spelt it wrong in the post above.


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## gronkus (Jul 24, 2006)

craig.a.c said:


> I like my snakes pure.



Hybrid mongrels ay

Do you get pedigrees with your snakes?


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## Rupes (Jul 24, 2006)

thanks craig... ewww to the 1st two pictures, just was bugging me cause i lost the picture


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

gronkus said:


> craig.a.c said:
> 
> 
> > I like my snakes pure.
> ...



To the best of my knowledge they are pure.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 24, 2006)

i wouldnt call the carpondro ugly


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## gronkus (Jul 24, 2006)

Thats one fine snake


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

Each to their own.

I don't like them, but others do. 
To me, it is a dirty looking snake.


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## peterescue (Jul 24, 2006)

I wouldnt call it a carprondo, a fresh water fish and a musical composition, doesnt make any sense.
wouldnt it be a carpondro?


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

peterescue said:


> I wouldnt call it a carprondo, a fresh water fish and a musical composition, doesnt make any sense.
> wouldnt it be a carpondro?



Thanks Peter. I thought I spelt it wrong, again.


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## krusty (Jul 24, 2006)

i dont mind all them pics there ok......imo.


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## sevrum (Jul 24, 2006)

interesting :? :?:


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## AGAMIDAE (Jul 24, 2006)

that is soooooooooooo wrong


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## snakes4me2 (Jul 24, 2006)

I actually like all those pics too. Personally im not worried bout hybrids I think some of them look better than the pure ones JMO and im sure 98% of people wont agree.


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

Those pics are not of very high quality animals. I've seen pics of some on other forums and they have been smokin! The problem is that many of them develop all that black tipping, when you see the animals that don't have that muddy look i guarantee you you will fall in love! They look basically like the hottest jungle you ever saw but with green instead og yellow/gold.


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## snakes4me2 (Jul 24, 2006)

craig.a.c said:


> I like my snakes pure.



Not having a go at you craig but simply a question.
What is it about them snakes that you dont like? is it the colors or the fact that you know that they are hybrids?. 
IF there were pure snakes that looked like that would you have a different opinion?

As I said just a question that would be interesting to know the answer :wink:


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## TrueBlue (Jul 24, 2006)

ugly mongels, all of them imo.
i think boa thinks the one in his avatar is nice, i recon its ugly.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm with you Trueblue - soon we'll only be able to rely on wild-caught stuff for genetic purity. Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD. It will only take a generation or two and nobody will know what they've actually got. Hybrids are at best a waste of space, at worst very damaging for herpetoculture in the long term. But there seems to be little consideration for the future here anyway...

J.


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## snakes4me2 (Jul 24, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I'm with you Trueblue - soon we'll only be able to rely on wild-caught stuff for genetic purity. Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD. It will only take a generation or two and nobody will know what they've actually got. Hybrids are at best a waste of space, at worst very damaging for herpetoculture in the long term. But there seems to be little consideration for the future here anyway...
> 
> J.



I am looking forward to breeding when I get the chance but dont worry I wont be mixing snakes to make nice patterns and colors. 

How do you guys feel about crossed dogs and cats??


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

Oh jesus here comes another anti vs pro hybrid fight.

*Reaches for beer and popcorn*


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

Hope you've got heaps of both Gordo!!! Though once the discussion gets to this stage it usually peaks very quickly (and nasty too...) then the thread gets locked if we're lucky. But I know I'm right...

Jamie.


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## Thor1 (Jul 24, 2006)

snakes4me, i dont think you can actually cross cast with dogs.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

... and I didn't know you could cross a cat and a dog... now that would surprise me... I would still have no interest in a dog-cat cross though.

J.


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

The only real problem i have with hybrids are those between elapids and morelia species. It's just too dangerous IMO, Imagine someone catching what they think was a carpet python only to be injected with a lethal dose of taipan venom. Just my opinion :twisted: 
*Puts on flame suit*

(PS. I already had my fore proof suit out because i had a circuit racing meeting last night, so i is ready) :lol:


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## Thor1 (Jul 24, 2006)

*cats*

wouldnt that just make a dumber cat?(a dogXcat)
some dogs can be quite dumb, i said some.


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## Glimmerman (Jul 24, 2006)

> It will only take a generation or two and nobody will know what they've actually got.



Jamie, I think this will be due to people NOT being HONEST with what they sell. We are getting it already with the children's family. I have seen a few Mac x Childreni or Stimi x Childreni and sold as one or the other. How many Intergrades have you seen being sold off as Pure Diamonds.

If you breed a Darwin x Jungle - SELL it as a Darwin X Jungle. I like designer snakes and I think they are a thing of the very near future. I too would be sad to see Locality lost, this is why I believe Breeders should be HONEST. Unfortunately, you and I know very well that this is a HUGE ask.


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## snakes4me2 (Jul 24, 2006)

Thor1 said:


> snakes4me, i dont think you can actually cross cast with dogs.



LOL... thats not quite what i ment  

Im not trying to start that hybrid argument again I just wanted to know what it actually was that people hated about them.

p.s Thor1 what is a cast?. :wink:


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

That's not true thor, dogs are smarter than cats. You don't see guide cats for the blind do you?


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## JasonL (Jul 24, 2006)

All domestic dogs and cats are Hybrids anyhows, no need to cross them to make one.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

Actually I don't HATE hybrids, I am just very suspicious of the mentality the seeks to produce them, and as Glimmerman implies, as long as the doer is honest about his animals, there would be a reduced problem. I am passionate about pythons, especially Morelia, within that genus are some of the most beautiful snakes in the world, just as pure species/subspecies. I am always looking for exceptional PURE animals (and exceptional is a very subjective judgement I admit). I would be EXTREMELY annoyed if I was sold an animal which turned out to be genetically contaminated because some d***head wanted to reinvent the wheel. And this WILL happen down the track - those interested in only one or two pet snakes see something pretty (appearance is all they care about), buy it and forget about it's provenance when it's passed on, so it's origin is forgotten in one generation. And not all hybrids are distinctive looking, many will have major characteristics of one parent or another, so can be very difficult to distinguish from a pure animal, but will pass those foreign genes down the line FOREVER. As Glimmerman implies again, and it is my opinion also, that over half the "diamonds" sold these days are carpet hybrids of some sort. I don't believe that those of us who like pure species of known provenance will ever muck it up for anyone else, but those who knowingly hybridise species and subspecies will eventually do huge damage to the genetics of our captive populations of snakes, and will muck it up for EVERYONE.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

I just love carpondros, to be honest it doesn't bother me in the slightest what others think of them, I've never been much of a follower. That snake I have as my avatar is just one of the most beautiful snakes around.
I'm all for people not liking them, it is a free world after all but I do object to being labelled untrustworthy purely because I like them as has happened in the past.
Everyone has the right to be narrowminded :lol:


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly, as I have said 99% of my snakes are pure to the best of my knowledge and true to locality as best I know. They will obviously stay that way but I ca still appreciate something else for it's beauty and by the way that is one UUGGLLYYYYY snake you posted :lol: :lol: 
Disregard what you think of hybrids, even though I'm not sure this is a hybrid, just look at the photo of a snake. Why is this ugly but a young Jungle or coastal is beautiful ? 




Glimmerman said:


> > Jamie, I think this will be due to people NOT being HONEST with what they sell. We are getting it already with the children's family. I have seen a few Mac x Childreni or Stimi x Childreni and sold as one or the other. How many Intergrades have you seen being sold off as Pure Diamonds.
> >
> > If you breed a Darwin x Jungle - SELL it as a Darwin X Jungle. I like designer snakes and I think they are a thing of the very near future. I too would be sad to see Locality lost, this is why I believe Breeders should be HONEST. Unfortunately, you and I know very well that this is a HUGE ask.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

It's not people like you that concern me Boa, you are what I'd call "aware". It's the casual pet keepers drawn to "something pretty" that worry me - they don't keep records and they're not interested in anything but the looks. There would be no problem at all if the genie could be put back in the bottle at will, but once it's out there, that's it. There can be no going back.

J.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 24, 2006)

heres an ugly snake...the coma


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

None of the snakes shown on this thread is ugly in my opinion, and in fact they are quite attractive to look at, but if they are not mules and can be bred, their potential is awful in the long term.

J.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

Thank you for that vote of confidence, it is appreciated if not share by everyone  I do consider myself aware as you say, I have scruples and a conscience.
All I say is don't call a snake ugly PURELY because it was produced in a manner you don't agree with. 



Pythoninfinite said:


> It's not people like you that concern me Boa, you are what I'd call "aware". It's the casual pet keepers drawn to "something pretty" that worry me - they don't keep records and they're not interested in anything but the looks. There would be no problem at all if the genie could be put back in the bottle at will, but once it's out there, that's it. There can be no going back.
> 
> J.


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

Ssssnakeman, I would not call them ugly either but they do not look right....Sorry but they almost have something strange about them,like they are suppose to be on a X-men movie or something... :wink: I do not like tampering with mother nature it all seems a bit weired to me..I know it would take alot of efort to do something like this ,well I presume...But its almost like some one just said wow im going to try this,like a kid mixing 2 colors together...That does not appeal to me.


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 24, 2006)

maybe ugly was the wrong word,eerie, strange, bizzare
infertile of course , which is a good thing


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

Do you mind me asking ,How you cross a Coastal and a Woma together? ..That is what the hatchling is isnt it Ssssnakeman?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 24, 2006)

artificially i think lurk,this snake is over a year old now but i cant track any recent pics..??
it is a carpet x woma


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

Are they infertile? Who knows?

J.


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

snakes4me2 said:


> Not having a go at you craig but simply a question.
> What is it about them snakes that you dont like? is it the colors or the fact that you know that they are hybrids?.
> IF there were pure snakes that looked like that would you have a different opinion?
> 
> As I said just a question that would be interesting to know the answer :wink:



The main reason I don't like hybrids is that there are to many people likeing them, and I'm araid that down the road we will end like America and calling our carpet pythons Moreia spilota americana (australias) because we have no idea what it is. In time we will have these mongrels flooding australia and there will be fewer and fewer pure species around.


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

Why would someone do that? When I saw the picture I felt sad for the animal...It does not look right and how confusing for it from what I could see there are no heat pits.What tempreture would they keep it at?...That is just messing around big time with animals...I do not know if I would like to see recent pics?


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 24, 2006)

i might be wrong about it being artificially bred..the people at "nerd" who made this, are now in the process of making a scrub x retic ...that would be another fun animal to have loose in the everglades huh..
baz


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

craig.a.c said:


> snakes4me2 said:
> 
> 
> > Not having a go at you craig but simply a question.
> ...




I have to agree with that..it does not seem fair on the reptiles either.
It is almost human vainity like docking tails off dogs,but it seems so much more extreme  ....I think I will avoid cross breeds as much as possible. :wink:


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## carpetpython (Jul 24, 2006)

*x breeds*

where can i get one would be interested in obtain two one of each sex
am interested in all hydrids in the pythons line love the unusual 
tks


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## snakes4me2 (Jul 24, 2006)

craig.a.c said:


> The main reason I don't like hybrids is that there are to many people likeing them, and I'm araid that down the road we will end like America and calling our carpet pythons Moreia spilota americana (australias) because we have no idea what it is. In time we will have these mongrels flooding australia and there will be fewer and fewer pure species around.



Thanks, I do understand what you are saying and I do believe it was pythoninfinite that answered my question very well also.

As i said i was just asking, thanks for answering as I didnt want to start the great hybrid debate AGIAN.


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## craig.a.c (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: x breeds*

Creating hybrids is playing god. Mixing species of snakes together that do not come together in the wild is wrong.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm not really sure what you mean by not fair on the animal ? Does the aimal know it has 2 different parent's ? Does it care ? Snakes live by instinct so we shouldn't really be attributing human type feelings to them. As far as what temperature to keep them at well I guess the same as you would keep a Woma or a Carpet, there really isn't much difference.


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

ssssnakeman said:


> i might be wrong about it being artificially bred..the people at "nerd" who made this, are now in the process of making a scrub x retic ...that would be another fun animal to have loose in the everglades huh..
> baz




Not cool,,I am going to guess they are American breeders? and hey I dont know very much about Retics but really they are 2 completly different snakes and I think its just screwing around with the animals and Why? ,,So they can say look what I can do!.. :x


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 24, 2006)

if you can make a coma there is no reason a scrub x tic cant be made..
by the way , i am not a hybred fan but i do find it interesting when two "different" animals can produce young


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## peterjohnson64 (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: x breeds*

Please corect me if I am wrong but aren't all domestic dogs the same species and therefore putting a great dane across a chihauha does not actually create a hybrid, just a different form of dog mutation. In fact, aren't all ldogs just mutations of the wolf? Same with cats. What we are proposing here is more like crossing a hyena with a wolf. horse with donkey. Man with Chimp!!!!

Now, if these things are not infertile the I say to every person that decides they want to produce these creatures: are you also totally for genetic engineering of our food stocks? Do you enjoy playing God?

We have had millions of years of evolution and now we want to say: Sorry nature, you are wrong and I prefer this animal. It looks better than the one you made.

I personally think this comes down to your own idea of scientific ethics. And EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion on that and none is right or wrong. Just don't ask me to do anything with a gorilla!!!


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

As far as i know that pairing (which was actually irian jaya carpet crossed with woma) was not done artificially and it has been replicated more than once since with male woma and female carpet. The pictures you showed snakeman are the first of it's kind and are only a year and a half old so they are yet to be proven fertile or infertile. IMO cross breeding hybridising etc. is no different to breeding for specific traits/mutations, but as most of you have said it is not the animals in question that are the problem it is the dishonest breeder that sells his/her animals as something they are not because they can not off load them as hybrids.


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: x breeds*



peterjohnson64 said:


> Just don't ask me to do anything with a gorilla!!!



Sorry mate, we do not share enough chromosomes for that to happen LOL :lol:


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## JEZ (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: x breeds*



craig.a.c said:


> Creating hybrids is playing god. Mixing species of snakes together that do not come together in the wild is wrong.



I AGREE 100%. It doesn't happen in the wild why should we do it with captive animals. 

The pure species are Magnificent there is no need to make "designer" pythons.

Thought I'd put my 2 cents in too :wink:


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

boa said:


> I'm not really sure what you mean by not fair on the animal ? Does the aimal know it has 2 different parent's ? Does it care ? Snakes live by instinct so we shouldn't really be attributing human type feelings to them. As far as what temperature to keep them at well I guess the same as you would keep a Woma or a Carpet, there really isn't much difference.




Cop out trying to say that I am trying to put my own way of thinking and feeling on to the snake...Your allowed your opinion and thats fine and I am not trying to insult you or any one else as a person...Lets face it but,your bored and do not appreciate what you already have and you forgot to mention that I bought up the fact that the Coasta/Woma has NO heat pits,this animal does not know what the hell it is and that is my concern not wether the poor baby has a broken hart or not...You guess that you would keep it the same as a Coastal OR Woma-Gee I hope your guess is right....As I said do not wish to insult,,but this is wrong they do Not do this in the wild so who are we to play around with that..and I really wish some ppl would have a bit of hart when it comes to herps,,even though they do not think and feel the same its still pays to give them a bit more respect then this..

Feeling very strong about this matter..


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: x breeds*

Now come on Pete are you a creationist or an evolutionist or a little from column A and a little from column B ? :lol: 



peterjohnson64 said:


> Do you enjoy playing God?
> 
> We have had millions of years of evolution


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

How can anyone be right anyway since each persons right and wrong is completely subjective to their own beliefs, there is no standard by which we define morals other than to say that what the majority want, the majority get.

This is the price of a godless world, there is no ultimate authority of right and wrong, thats what you want isn't it? So that is what you get...

Go the hybrids!!! :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

It's not solely the BREEDER that's the problem, he may be totally honest about what he's done, but after an animal leaves his hands, it's out there and gone. VERY few people will even be interested in the origin of a snake as long as it looks good, and they will be sold and on-sold to any number of unsuspecting buyers. Maybe most out there don't care about the provenance of their animals, but I do and it really p#sses me off that some clown with no thought for tomorrow can compromise something I've had an interest in and cared for greatly over the years. If you can't see the natural beauty of your carpets, chondros etc as they occur in the wild, or the purebred animals in captivity, then I reckon your in the game for the wrong reasons. As I said before, what I do will NEVER impose on on the hybridisers, but what they do will definitely impose on the way in which I view herp keeping in the future, and the way I which I manage my hobby. This is really an ethical issue. Some states have legislated against hybridising, it would probably be a good idea if it was legislated against at a federal level because it has ramifications with regard to biodiversity in general.

And yes Pete, dogs are regarded as a single species now although there were probably introductions of other genetic material along the way to produce what we now call dogs. Cats similarly - although I think there is ongoing introduction of genetic stuff there too, looking at some of the newer varieties of domestic cats available, they look like ocelots and other smaller jungle cats. They haven't just come from careful selective breeding...

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

I think what it comes down to is we all have different opinions and I have always said neither opinion is right or wrong. 
Debate is healthy but should always be good natured and should not get personal. I don't agree with people feeding young snakes every 2 weeks, that doesn't make me right, it's just my opinion.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

Oh by the way Pete, I have a friend in the African section at Taronga, I can see if they'll spare a Gorilla lady for a couple of days if you like... Might as well do the whole hybrid thing...

J.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 24, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Oh by the way Pete, I have a friend in the African section at Taronga, I can see if they'll spare a Gorilla lady for a couple of days if you like... Might as well do the whole hybrid thing...
> 
> J.


Just make sure your not present when she gives birth pete, that would be one hell of a bi*ch slap. :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

Apologies to Pattie too by the way...

J.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

CARPONDRO'S are any species of carpet cross chondro 
(Irian jaya, coastal, jungle, bredli etc)

CHONGLES are specifically jungle cross chondro


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## junglemad (Jul 24, 2006)

chondro hatchy = 6 grand plus
Carpondros = an ugly mistake worth jack


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm not sure I could own a Chongle :lol: I have never heard of that one I admit, as Jungles are carpets Carpondro is the only name I have ever seen.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

So what kind of husbandry would they need?
High humidity like GTP or less humidity like Jungles?
Will they be fragile like GTP or hardy like Jungles?
Can they be sexed earlier or later?

People should think hard about what they are doing before playing god!


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

Here you go Boa 
http://www.pythonpete.com/Chongle/Chongle.htm


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for that, I must admit Chongle is a new one on me.


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## peterjohnson64 (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: x breeds*



boa said:


> Now come on Pete are you a creationist or an evolutionist or a little from column A and a little from column B ? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read my signature mate. And I am not going to bore the crap out of every person in this forum with my thoughts on how creation and evolution ARE exactly the same thing. Ever thrown fish into a fish tank without preparing it first?

Jamie has already had to endure that!!!

Ah, and me and a gorilla. That would just create a chimpanzee.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: x breeds*

Yes I have, they survived although they didn't seem to thrive. 



peterjohnson64 said:


> Ever thrown fish into a fish tank without preparing it first?


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: x breeds*



boa said:


> Yes I have, they survived although they didn't seem to thrive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They survived without water?? Water is preperation isn't it?? But I am with pete on this one, lets not go there.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

I hate trick questions :lol:


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## peterjohnson64 (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

more than that, you also bought a fish tank!!! And you had help with making the fish!!! God started with matter and anti-matter. Try doing it from there!!

Evolutionists would prove that bakers dont bake cakes. They would pull them apart and prove that they evolved from wheat, bread, sugar etc etc. But I said i wouldn't go down this path


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## Jumala (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

I saw an animal at NERD last year that I'm sure the woman said it was a ball python cross woma  it was definately different. Have to see if I can find the photo ..... and it was at least 12 months old then. The only survivor of the entire clutch.
Speaking of hybrid cats, we own a bengal, which for those of you who are not aware, have in their parentage the asian leopard cat. So people will do what they think looks good and will have a market. Have to admit, we do like our cat  
My opinion on hybrid reptiles is as long as people are honest and upfront about what their animals are, then people can decide whether or not they want to buy them. If you have doubts about the parentage of an animal, don't buy it. 
Also Qld has definately got it in their legislation that it is illegal to knowingly produce hybrids ....... 

JMO


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## Australis (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



peterjohnson64 said:


> God started with matter and anti-matter.



If you say so :roll: 


Matt


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

Jandc Who coined the phrase Chongle? I am with Boa on this one, have only ever heard of carpondro.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

It is all fine &amp; good to say "as long as the sellers are honest" but what about the actual animals health?

As I have already said we have no idea about husbandry details because we are combining 2 different animals with extreme differences in care.

As suggested morelia x aspidites lacks heat sensing pits, are these not necessary for the animal? (morelia side - considering they have evolved into using them)

We do not know if we will be creating sterile mules that will not be able to breed (but hopefully we are).

There is alot of things we do not know and because of this I do not think it should be done. 

In all honesty is creating an animal that you think looks pretty but lacks functional components any different to Ray Hoser de-venomising Elapids? Alot of hypocrisy around I think.


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## Rupes (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

OMG, what have a started !!!!,,, all i wanted was a picture! :shock: :shock: :|


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## Rupes (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

OMG, what have I started !!!!,,, all i wanted was a picture! :shock: :shock: :|


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## Australis (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



JandC_Reptiles said:


> In all honesty is creating an animal that you think looks pretty but lacks functional components any different to Ray Hoser de-venomising Elapids? Alot of hypocrisy around I think.




Just minus the fridge.
:evil: 

Matt


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

Matt my point is alot of members are quick to jump up &amp; down about venomoids (regardless of how the proceedure was performed) yet creating an animal that lacks heat sensing pits etc is ok as long as we are honest about it.


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

If you think that your gonna have problems with husbandry when it comes to hybrids you are probably right, you could have some issues. But you tend to get bigger issues when it comes to morphs, take albino beardies for example, there's an animal that has been selectively bred to have a lethal gene morph. And yes the albino gene is lethal to beardies because with that morph they can't absorb UV and therefore die. What about the Jags in the US and UK, 25% of all JagxJag clutches die because they develop with a "super" jag gene wich causes leucism which causes them to die.

What I am trying to say here is that there are worse things you can do to an animals well being than hybridise them  Do you really think that the people who produce these animals don't have the same love and passion for them as we do? JMO :wink:


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

It is like creating birds that can't fly (and don't mention kiwi's, emu's ostriches or quails, these are evolved creatures not man made) you have an animal with teh instinct to fly but can't.

Same as Morelia x Aspidites you have a snake with the instinct to track heat but no functional sensing pits to do so.


----------



## Australis (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



JandC_Reptiles said:


> Matt my point is alot of members are quick to jump up &amp; down about venomoids (regardless of how the proceedure was performed) yet creating an animal that lacks heat sensing pits etc is ok as long as we are honest about it.



I think you may have taken my comment the wrong way, i do agree with you point you made.


Matt


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## JasonL (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



> take albino beardies for example, there's an animal that has been selectively bred to have a lethal gene morph. And yes the albino gene is lethal to beardies because with that morph they can't absorb UV and therefore die.


I have raised many (all of my) beardie's without UV and have never lost one yet, I am aware of that way of thinking but think it runs deeper than UV problems. I agree with you otherwise, for every "HOT" looking morph you see, there are heaps of dead / deformed ones you don't. Albino animals that are bred will normally have other gene problems, ones that are wild caught adult will have very few or minor problems as they have survived the toughest selective test available.


----------



## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

Well perhaps it not UV but you can not argue the point that i am making. Wouldn't stop me from owning them though


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## gronkus (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

If the animal is healthy and doesn't get a chance to pro create with wild species who cares?

I think that if the person who owns the snakes wants to cross them then good on them it's their choice and nobody is forcing you to buy them.
There are some hybrids around and IMO some of them look better then the pure species.
Unless all your snakes come with complete honest pedigrees who is to say your beloved "pure" snake hasn't had X bred relatives?


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

My thoughts exactly, did God ever write a paper on this so called creation ? :lol: Just pulling your leg, as someone said the other day creationists believe in theories and evolutionists believe in the evidence :wink: 



MattQld83 said:


> peterjohnson64 said:
> 
> 
> > God started with matter and anti-matter.
> ...


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

Sorry Boa i think you'll find they are all theories just one has more evidence to support it than the other. 

And Gronkus that is the problem most people have with hybrids, them "Contaminating" pure lines.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



JandC_Reptiles said:


> Same as Morelia x Aspidites you have a snake with the instinct to track heat but no functional sensing pits to do so.


Any animal in such a condition would not need the pits because they are supplied with dead food put right in front of their face, somehow I think they would not even notice the difference.


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

This is still going...Well it has been interesting even if I do not see any point to cross breeding ....I must say a sorry to Boa if I pi**ed you off in any way this issue is one I feel strongly about.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

Don't be silly, no need to apologise. We all feel strongly about things, all I ever ask is that people realise we have different ideas and to accept the opinions of others. It's all good.


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## Lurk (Jul 24, 2006)

Cool...But would like to know how much futher this can go,,like whats next a Red belly diamond snake or a Bearded olive python?


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## peterjohnson64 (Jul 24, 2006)

The Matter &amp; anti-matter thing is not part of creationist theory. it is much closer aligned to the evolutionists and the theories on the creation of the universe. Interesting that everyone jumped to the conclusion that it was creationist. I specifically tried to put part of each in my comment and make it part creationist/part evolutionist. I am the only person I know of with the theory that God created the earth and all thinigs living on it through the process of evolution. That probably makes me a whacko but I don't care.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

Don't be silly but I am currently working on a Frill Necked Water Python.


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## waruikazi (Jul 24, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> The Matter &amp; anti-matter thing is not part of creationist theory. it is much closer aligned to the evolutionists and the theories on the creation of the universe. Interesting that everyone jumped to the conclusion that it was creationist. I specifically tried to put part of each in my comment and make it part creationist/part evolutionist. I am the only person I know of with the theory that God created the earth and all thinigs living on it through the process of evolution. That probably makes me a whacko but I don't care.



Don't worry Peter i'm about there too.


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## Retic (Jul 24, 2006)

No it just means you can explain it all away and have the facts and evidence to back up at least half of it. :wink: 



peterjohnson64 said:


> That probably makes me a whacko but I don't care.


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## Australis (Jul 24, 2006)

peterjohnson64 said:


> I am the only person I know of with the theory that God created the earth and all thinigs living on it through the process of evolution. That probably makes me a whacko but I don't care.




Your not alone, infact recently the Catholic Church and other organised cults, have conceded Evolution to be fact. But still hold onto the.. oh oh oh.. but.... God still kick started it all.. :roll: 

So its seems your not alone at all...

Im not sure of the release date for a revised version of the Bible :wink: 


Matt





[


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 24, 2006)

Bring it back to life again...

I still think that we as keepers have a responsibility to the animals, the culture and other individuals interested in reptiles to behave as ethically as possible with with the animals in our care. Hybridising wild animals, when we only have access to a very limited genetic stock of animals in captivity, is simply NOT ethical in any way. We need to take care of the future of our interest.Those that want to do it (just because they can) will forever compromise the animals we love so much.

The problem with similar specie/subspecie hybrids is that many of the animals produced will look a lot like one or the other parent, and will be pretty much indistiguishable from the parents. Those with evident characteristics of both may be in a minority, so what happens to the others? Those who now say "who cares" are the problem here, they don't think the problem is serious enough to bother. It is... 

Like a kid with a few pots of pure colour, experiments by mixing them all together, and ends up with a s*****y mess which eventually gets thrown out as no good for anything, and you can't ever return them to what they were.

J.


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## Elfling (Jul 24, 2006)

I think that the GTP x JP is ugly. However some hybrids are nice looking.


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## snakehunter (Jul 24, 2006)

Why do people do this. I can understand a coastal x diamond but greens and carpets and womas??


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## Ricko (Jul 24, 2006)

why can you understand some being done but not others?


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## snakehunter (Jul 24, 2006)

From my perspective, coastals and diamonds are closer (similar) than say a jungle x diamond and definiately more so than a woma and carpet. However as others have said it should definately always be made clear that the animal being sold is not pure.


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## moosenoose (Jul 24, 2006)

craig.a.c said:


> In time we will have these mongrels flooding australia and there will be fewer and fewer pure species around.




:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm not having a go at you Craig, far from it.... but this is about the 5th time I've read a similar comment along this vein.

There will always be the purists out there, always!! Absolutely no question about it! I've come to realize snake breeders and some assorted keepers as the most insecure bunch of individuals in our countries entire pet/ hobby trade! The sky-rocketing price of GTP's reflect this perfectly! :lol:


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



SnakeWrangler said:


> JandC_Reptiles said:
> 
> 
> > Same as Morelia x Aspidites you have a snake with the instinct to track heat but no functional sensing pits to do so.
> ...



So with that reasoning Elapids would not need venom in captivity then, making Ray Hoser a Herping guru yeah? :roll:


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## Nagraj (Jul 24, 2006)

moosenoose said:


> There will always be the purists out there, always!!




Unfortunately there may not always be pure animals to go with this assertion. There are some species of (foreign) birds in Australian aviculture which have all been cross bred with related species and hence no pure animals are available and the pure species is lost to Australia.


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## snakehunter (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



JandC_Reptiles said:


> SnakeWrangler said:
> 
> 
> > JandC_Reptiles said:
> ...



Not supporting either of these practices, just a neutral point, I don't think you can compare in that way JandC as elapids actually use the venom to digest their meals whereas heat pits have no part in metabolising food


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 24, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*

It is the same thing imo.
Many other snake species don't use venom to aid digestion.
Venomoids are thriving without their toxicity.
So If Elapids in captivity are being fed dead rodents why is venom a necessity?

Evolution created these functions so why do we need to deprive the animals of them?


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## moosenoose (Jul 24, 2006)

Nagraj said:


> moosenoose said:
> 
> 
> > There will always be the purists out there, always!!
> ...



That's a shame, I was hoping of buying something pure one day! Seriously, there is that instability thing I was talking about :lol:


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## dynea (Jul 24, 2006)

wow there hot.


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## Australis (Jul 24, 2006)

*Moosenoose,*


Sure there will be people breeding pure stock for many years to come... to keep alot of the Purists (myself included) happy............. . . .... .. ....


But what about all people who dont realise when they are sold a tainted animal. It ends up being bred down the line under the pure banner.

Its the "snow ball effect".

There are so many questionable animals for sale IMO.


Matt


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## dynea (Jul 24, 2006)

personaly i like boa's aviator.


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## moosenoose (Jul 24, 2006)

That's where you'll know, and anyone else "in the know" will understand what you have and have been continually breeding Matt :wink: 

It's a little like buying a genuine Phase 3 GTHO Falcon - I'd love one, but the price will ulitmately determine what most people are able to afford. If it looks like a GT and goes like one (or better), then I'd most likely buy a replica - who's to know what it is unless you have an intimate knowledge about cars? Most people are happy enough to excite the general public with a fake than try and impress the minority of "purists" (who incidently pick holes in everything anyway! :lol: ) with the genuine article! Why do you think they made a sequel to "Too fast, Too Furious"????? hehehehehe I know where you are coming from, but I think being the small community it is, there will always be a pretty tight circle in-the-know as to who keeps and breeds the "purer" forms 

I'm totally amazed this thread has remained peaceful for so long! Amazing! :lol: (Good work )


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## pugsly (Jul 24, 2006)

> I'm totally amazed this thread has remained peaceful for so long! Amazing!



Here here!

Interesting read, whether or not we agree or not, it happened, is going to happen and willc ontinue to happen.. Dont know if its right or wrong but at the end of the day, I like the look of them.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds*



JandC_Reptiles said:


> SnakeWrangler said:
> 
> 
> > JandC_Reptiles said:
> ...


Elapids do not need venom in captivity, as you said they are thriving without it. Is Ray Hoser in the wrong for what he did, in my opinion the way he done it was wrong, but who am I to say that what he did was wrong? Who are you or anyone to say it? Sure you can have an opinion, but just because you think its wrong doesn't make it wrong.

Once again, you choose to remove the final authority from your world, you must live with the consequences, you no longer have anything on which to base your morals, alone morals are subjective, that is how you want it, isn't it?

*Note:* I do not wish to start a discussion about God, my point is that in a world that refuses to acknowledge him, what else can you expect but everyone doing as they please.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Spot on Moose, as you rightly say and this has been said many times there will always be purists and ironically as I am pro hybrid I am one of those purists :lol: That might sound like having an each way bet but to me it makes perfect sense, I can see the attraction of both and the two aren't mutually exclusive. 
There are plenty of people out there who can't bring themselves to admit any hybrid can be a good looking animal based purely on the fact that it was created by a method they don't agree with. 
As has been said this has been a very well mannered debate and well done to everyone for that, there is no excuse to ever make these things personal. 



moosenoose said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm not having a go at you Craig, far from it.... but this is about the 5th time I've read a similar comment along this vein.
> 
> There will always be the purists out there, always!! Absolutely no question about it! I've come to realize snake breeders and some assorted keepers as the most insecure bunch of individuals in our countries entire pet/ hobby trade! The sky-rocketing price of GTP's reflect this perfectly! :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

So Boa has an aviator??? I didn't even know he had a plane!

Yep, I expected to find this thread in a smoking heap this morning too - well done everyone! But I'll keep it going for a bit longer...

Let me say to start with, some of the hybrid animals I have seen are quite beautiful, I don't "hate" them (or any animal... except funnel webs and centipedes haha!) but regardless of how gorgeous they may be, if you think about it seriously, with consideration for the long-term, they represent a significant threat to the viability of our hobby. And I always know that the hybrids that are shown-off by their breeders are probably the best examples of several to many in the clutch. What happens to the others that you don't see?

We need to totally disregard the individual animals in this debate, it's the principle that's most important here. The genetic material we have available to us as keepers/breeders is (generally) limited for most species, with the exception of animals from WA and the NT which allow, for the time being anyway, a legal take from the wild.

As a keeper/breeder myself, I regard myself as privileged to be able to work with these animals, and something of a "caretaker" for the future of the interest. I have to behave ethically with both the animals in my care, and the people with whom I have reptile dealings. I have been in the keeping game for more than 40 years, starting long before routine captive breeding was considered possible. The past 20 years has seen HUGE gains in our understanding of these creatures, and the consequent expansion of the hobby/interest. The genetic material that many of you now have in your collections is far too valuable to allow it to be contaminated on a whim, just because you can. To cross-breed something now, just because you want something "pretty," is just plain vandalism, and will have far greater repercussions generations down the track, when there are literally hundreds of (multigenerational) animals from your experiment in circulation, and you are long forgotten. As I said before, the situation is irretrievable once the genie is out of the bottle.

Unless we can convince the wildlife authorities to allow an occasional wild-take...

J.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

That was very well put J.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Thanks W! I hope this thread doesn't put an end to my rodent breeding business!

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

I think this thread has really shown how passionate we are about our hobby. I think it would take a very small mind for somone to think less of any one who contributed to this thread. 

I think one word can explain this entire discussion... Passion


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## Davo66 (Jul 25, 2006)

Wow! spent the last hour reading all these posts and I have to say excellent discussion! Fuelled by emotions, beliefs and a sprinkling of scientific fact. Thats why I continue to come to this site.
My only point is, Whether these hybrids are beautiful creatures or frankenstein's monsters, if enough of them escape, (as does happen from time to time) what will be the impact on the local population of a certain species? could this eventually lead to a reduction in the number of different species of pythons in some regions of australia or even throughout Australia? Will the name (Eastern coastal python) include every type of python which live along the coast? no more jungles, Brisbanes, diamonds, scrubbies, could this even reach inland?
For me this is the greatest fear all these little variations in snakes becoming just a conglomerate of all the different sub-species which exist as we speak, But for how much longer?


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Exactly, I have been waiting for a thread on this subject that can go full term without resorting to attacks and irrelevant comments. Yes I think passion sums it up well, both sides are valid and neither side will agree with the other. 
I don't actually see that it will spell the end of our hobby as we know it and I can't see that getting 'pure' animals will be any harder than it is now.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

I don't see that being anymore of a problem that exists at present, any python that escapes will potentially dilute the local gene pool. If a jungle or Bredls escapes in Brisbane or Darwin it will do just as much harm as a hybrid. Part of the reason my reptile room is escape proof, hopefully  



Davo said:


> Wow! spent the last hour reading all these posts and I have to say excellent discussion! Fuelled by emotions, beliefs and a sprinkling of scientific fact. Thats why I continue to come to this site.
> My only point is, Whether these hybrids are beautiful creatures or frankenstein's monsters, if enough of them escape, (as does happen from time to time) what will be the impact on the local population of a certain species? could this eventually lead to a reduction in the number of different species of pythons in some regions of australia or even throughout Australia? Will the name (Eastern coastal python) include every type of python which live along the coast? no more jungles, Brisbanes, diamonds, scrubbies, could this even reach inland?
> For me this is the greatest fear all these little variations in snakes becoming just a conglomerate of all the different sub-species which exist as we speak, But for how much longer?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

It just makes sense that the more hybridised animals that are out there, the more likely it will be that animals available will be contaminated. I really don't see a huge problem for me at the moment - I'm reasonably well networked and can pretty much get what I want with a fair degree of certainty that I'm getting what I seek. But in the future that will inevitably change. It's like p*ssing in a swimming pool, it doesn't stay where you do it, however much it is diluted, it's still in there and will eventually contaminate every drop of the water in that pool. Frankly, it's not something I care to swim in (if it was someone else's that is lol!)

Jamie.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

Simply put if it is against the law to cross bred different reptiles species in Australia then it should not be done.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Well it is against the law in some States but not others so does that mean it is half right and half wrong ? :lol:


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

Boa
What state is it deemed legal ?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

I think it's legislative oversight that it's not illegal everywhere - it should be, not that it would stop people from doing it. I'm very happy to campaign to have it specifically prohibited by law here in NSW - anyone else with me on that? WA and Qld actively prohibit by legislation, the other states discourage, but have no legislation in place as far as I know. Probably wasn't even on their radar when the laws were drafted.

If we can encourage a more responsible, thoughtful approach to the things we do with our reptiles, and the general reptile-keeping community understands the implications of hybridising for the future of our interest, then hopefully it will change the "anything goes" attitude that seems to prevail at the moment. Ethical thinking has to be part of the general culture, but there will always be larrikins out there who don't care about the implications of their actions down the line...

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

NSW for one and I think SA but not sure.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

I will know for sure shortly as I have contacted departments in several states for their legal stance. It is interesting already how horrified ( although not surprising ) every person that I have spoke to in these departments so far is about the cross breeding concept.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Well I guess NSW aren't horrified as they create a new species number when a new cross turns up. I guess something else worth mentioning is the legality of it will have zero affect on it happening in the same way as collecting from the wild or deliberately killing snakes or keeping exotics.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

The only reason I wouldn't agree is that you are trying to force it on everyone. It is your opnion that 'it should be' illegal. I realise you are against it and I have total respect for that but because you are against it you shouldn't try to use that to change a law to suit your opinion. 



Pythoninfinite said:


> I think it's legislative oversight that it's not illegal everywhere - it should be, not that it would stop people from doing it. I'm very happy to campaign to have it specifically prohibited by law here in NSW - anyone else with me on that? WA and Qld actively prohibit by legislation, the other states discourage, but have no legislation in place as far as I know. Probably wasn't even on their radar when the laws were drafted.
> 
> If we can encourage a more responsible, thoughtful approach to the things we do with our reptiles, and the general reptile-keeping community understands the implications of hybridising for the future of our interest, then hopefully it will change the "anything goes" attitude that seems to prevail at the moment. Ethical thinking has to be part of the general culture, but there will always be larrikins out there who don't care about the implications of their actions down the line...
> 
> Jamie.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

I think you will find it is much more than Pythonsinfinites opinion. I would be very surprised if it isn't 90 percent of all reptile keepers opinion. Lets see how big this thing gets when there are prosecutions and further more I have been asked personally for names of people that purposly do this by one department. Currently I have the legal sections of several wildlife departments looking into this in detail as we speak. Some of the advice I have been given from one wild life department is that if they have not got legislation to permit cross breeding there will be a letter sent to the minister explaining the situation and asking for change. Sounds good to me.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Interesting Dave - I was considering doing that myself, let's know what you find out. I'd be pretty sure we can mount some fair arguments for legislative change in NSW without too much touble too. (I have to say I have always had problems with CALM's conservative line, but I'm with them all the way on this one.)

I think the value of changing the law to make it illegal, while it won't stop the diehards who will do anything for a bit of attention, or to make a buck, is in letting every keeper, especially new ones, that with the licence (and therefore the privilege) to keep a reptile, comes the responsibility to behave ethically at all times with those animals. I could also say Boa, that just because you see nothing wrong with it, doesn't make it right or acceptable. Whichever way you look at it, hybridising IS unacceptable for the future of the herpetoculture interest, the fact that someone wants the flashest snake around regardless of the long term consequences for the species is not sufficient argument for it happen. And if we can get every new keeper coming on line to at least consider the consequences as they enter the hobby, then we have served a very good purpose.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Well most polls seem to show the majority like hybrids/crosses to some extent or another so you would have to imagine that a similar % would be against any legislation stopping their breeding. 
I seem to remember a poll on here recently that showed that sort of % and even judging by responses in this thread you wouldn't get anywhere near 90% against.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

I have been asked by one wild life office to come up with a name to represent the cause of many to be presented to the minister. I will definately needs some help here and I know I will cause many to hate me me over this, but so be it.


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## Magpie (Jul 25, 2006)

I think that will be a great step forward.
As almost none of us can prove 100% beyond a doubt that our animals are pure and DNA testing is almost useless to help, no one will be legally able to breed their reptiles any more. Fan-bloody-tastic.


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## peterjohnson64 (Jul 25, 2006)

I ahve direct access to shadow ministers in NSW. As this is a good idea and clearly an oversight they would love to take up the issue. If it is the NSW dept you are talking to Dave then let me know who and I am straight in there.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration Magpie! I'm no fan of legislating against things generally either, but when a few have the potential to damage it for everyone, we need to raise the herp community consciousness about issues such as this. I've always felt that bureaucrats &amp; wildlife are a bad combination, but what else can you do?

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

I think illegalising it will have much worse ramafictions for the hobby than legalising it. Do you really think that people are going to stop doing it? or what bout those accidnetal crosses. All this will do is drive it underground and cause poeple who do have excess of these hybrid animals to sell them dishonestly as something they are not so that they do not get prosecuted. Banning it will not control it. I think it should be illegal (and i would be really suprised if it isn't) to sell these animals as pure when they are not, they should be given a species code, beginning with H for hybrid maybe, so that they can be tracked and sold ethically so that the tom, dick or harry that has one that they no longer want doesn't and can't sell these hybrid animals as something they are not.

That is something that could control this potential or real problem, depending on how you look at it.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

If that makes sense?


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Exactly right Magpie, it will be fine for those with all wild caught but of no use whatsoever for those of us with multiple generation captive bred animals where we rely purely on the honesty of the breeder and the breeder before them. 
It just seems to be a case of 'I don't like it so I want it banned'. 

*Pythoninfinite* this " Whichever way you look at it, hybridising IS unacceptable for the future of the herpetoculture interest " is clearly not the case, it is what you believe but it is in no way accurate to say whichever way you look at it because a great many people don't look at it like that. 

I have never said I see nothing wrong with it, I have said that assuming breeders are honest it wont cause any problems, as unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world there will ALWAYS be those who ignore the law and do the wrong thing. 

All I can see it doing is forcing them underground along with exotics and breeders will just sell their animals as pure regardless. I just can't see that it accomplishes anything JMO.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Gordo, I hope you haven't been drinking beer and eating popcorn since this thread started... I told you to put a good supply in!

Legislation should always be a last resort, and of course people will always do it because they can, but if it says on your licence when you get it that hybridising carries a penalty if you get caught, then just MAYBE someone will think about the very evident consequences of this activity, and not mix their species. Accidentally produced hybrids should be destroyed, or their eggs destroyed.

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

boa said:


> All I can see it doing is forcing them underground along with exotics and breeders will just sell their animals as pure regardless. I just can't see that it accomplishes anything JMO.



I just thought of a worse thing it could do, cause people to release their unwanted illegal animals into the wild. And that could truly damage our hooby.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Gordo, I hope you haven't been drinking beer and eating popcorn since this thread started... I told you to put a good supply in!
> 
> Legislation should always be a last resort, and of course people will always do it because they can, but if it says on your licence when you get it that hybridising carries a penalty if you get caught, then just MAYBE someone will think about the very evident consequences of this activity, and not mix their species. Accidentally produced hybrids should be destroyed, or their eggs destroyed.
> 
> Jamie.



I really disagree mate, MAYBE someone will think they might have found a niche market for hybrids :?: . I am not a hybrid fan, i don't own any and do not plan to any time soon. But like the illegal exotic trade it will continue with it being illegal. But i don't really think this should be compared to the exotic trade. 

This should be controlled, not banned. Making it legal within certain constraints i think is the only way to do it and allow for people to be honest about what they have and are selling.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 25, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I've always felt that bureaucrats &amp; wildlife are a bad combination


And why is that I wonder? That is a bit hypocritical isn't it, the two shouldn't be combined unless they are doing something that you think is right.

warulkazi, that couldn't happen because people wouldn't breed them if it were illegal, I think it is obvious from the past that when something is made illegal, it solves the problem. You do realise that there are no exotics in Australia because it is illegal, dont you?


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

I have to agree, there is a personal agenda here and it is very obvious.

I understand there are also no drugs here or illegal guns and people don't speed. :lol: 



SnakeWrangler said:


> Pythoninfinite said:
> 
> 
> > I've always felt that bureaucrats &amp; wildlife are a bad combination
> ...


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## Magpie (Jul 25, 2006)

> I think that's a bit of an exaggeration Magpie! I'm no fan of legislating against things generally either, but when a few have the potential to damage it for everyone, we need to raise the herp community consciousness about issues such as this. I've always felt that bureaucrats &amp; wildlife are a bad combination, but what else can you do?



Not really, it's either a toothless tiger or they investigate and prosecute anyone who is reported to be breeding hybrids.
As I'm sure you know, a lot of the reptiles out there don't really fit the (sub)species defenition, scale counts, patterning etc and a lot of those definitions are fairly vague. 
What's the diference between an atherton jungle and a coastal?
A diference that you can prove in a court of law that is.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 25, 2006)

Here is a small list of things we have to look forward to if it is made illegal:

1) Mass production of hybrids to control the underground market.
2) Huge profits for those that do because they sell high to cover the risk
3) Mass release of hybrids into the wild when people get spooked and dump their entire setup
4) Huge numbers of hybrids being sold as pure on license
5) Pure animal prices skyrocket because the demand for guaranteed pure animals increases expoentially

Need I go on?


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

I think it is obvious that there is enough concern about this issue that something needs to be done about it. Pythoninfinite why don't you lobby your local member or who ever it is you will be contocating to perform a consensus as to what the overall herp keeping population want? That way we can really see what herpers want for our hobby and then we can make some changes in legislation to suit.

At the moment all of our eyes are clouded by what we want for ourselves and we think we are speaking for the majority or the best thing for our hobby, when it is obvious that some of aren't because we can't all be right!


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Nope, nothing you could call a personal agenda here, or at least anything more than your own Boa. Maybe call it a real concern that a few could damage the interest for a lot. Look, maybe I am pushing s**t uphill with this one in the long term, but the arguments against are FAR stronger than any argument for. The old guns &amp; drugs and speeding arguments are really rather silly in this context, although I can see that the prohibition on handguns and automatic weapons in this country makes us a lot safer on the streets here than we would be in the US... even though there are some of each out there illegally.

And nope, nothing hypocritical there either SnakeWrangler, I have worked professionally with wildlife and bureaucrats for 40 years, some of it good and helpful, some boneheaded and very frustrating. On balance, they do what they can with the information they've got, often (and unfortunately) with a little personal sentiment and prejudice thrown in. That's all I was alluding to.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Ah now you are wrong there because you want them stopped because you don't like them, I on the other hand can see the beauty in the snakes and don't see the same threat to our entire hobby like you do. If I bred hybrids then I would have an agenda but as I don't breed them I have nothing to gain either way.



Pythoninfinite said:


> Nope, nothing you could call a personal agenda here, or at least anything more than your own Boa. Jamie.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

It should not be a question of what is good for us as reptile keepers but what is good for the protection of wild Australian native fauna.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Absolutely right but I can't see how this issue can possibly influence our wild native wildlife at all. No-one seriously thinks our animals will ever see the wild again excepting escapees of course. 
Most of our animals are far removed from wild animals ?


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 25, 2006)

PilbaraPythons said:


> It should not be a question of what is good for us as reptile keepers but what is good for the protection of wild Australian native fauna.


I am 100% for the protection of our WILD native fauna, but captive bred animals have no affect on them. Besides, our wild native fauna takes care of itself as long as we stop imposing on their natural habitat and give it a place to live. I think people who continue to take animals from the wild are causing more damage to wild native fauna than those breeding hybrids.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

PilbaraPythons said:


> It should not be a question of what is good for us as reptile keepers but what is good for the protection of wild Australian native fauna.



either way i think my suggestion is a pretty decent one, perhaps an independant investigation as to what would be the most suitable course of action would be best, although i doubt our hobby would recieve that sort of funding :roll:


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

Snake Wrangler
Tell me honestly of a reptile keeper who has kept reptiles for 10 years that hasn't ever had a snake escape whether they recovered it or not. There won't be that many and many more just won’t admit it.
Assuming your are referring to W.A collecting, back up what you are saying in regards to wild collecting causing damage to wild native fauna. If the collecting is done with out habitat destruction then I guarantee you can not .
.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

So I assume your argument is based on the fact that if a hybrid were to escape it could influence the wild population ? Any snake that isn't native to the area it is kept is a potential danger, if a non native snake escapes in another area it could 'pollute' the local snakes. There would be little if any difference between a legally kept Jungle and an illegally kept chondro/Jungle if they escaped in Brisbane for example. 
By all means argue against hybrids but don't use there theoretical affects on native snakes in the wild as a part of that argument.

By the way, 12 pages now and still nicely on track by and large, well done.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Yep Gordo, not a bad idea. And anyone wanting to put their own point of view is most welcome to debate, if I choose to take the political line, there is absolutely nothing to stop others with a differing point of view from doing the same. The more light thrown onto the topic the better for all concerned.

Now Boa I've said it TIME &amp; TIME AGAIN, I don't dislike those animals, and I've even said that some of them are gorgeous... but under the stunning exterior lies a sinister potential, it's not the hybrids, but the practice of hybridising that is the problem.

Magpie, your argument might sound a bit more reasoned, and a bit less emotional if you didn't use so many "over the top" adjectives.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

I actually meant you don't like the animals in so far as what they represent, not as an animal. Sorry I should have made that more clear.



Pythoninfinite said:


> Now Boa I've said it TIME &amp; TIME AGAIN, I don't dislike those animals, and I've even said that some of them are gorgeous... but under the stunning exterior lies a sinister potential, it's not the hybrids, but the practice of hybridising that is the problem.
> 
> Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Yeah, I reckon we're doing really well so far - congrats all, especially you Boa, I'll have to buy you a beer sometime... after the legislation is passed... lol


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

Don't worry i still have heaps of beer and popcorn left from when this thread started  

Think i even have some bourbon here for you girls too :twisted:


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 25, 2006)

So you think that taking animals from the wild does not hurt them? When you take a female adult from the wild, that doesn't potentially reduce the future number of animals? And I am not saying you are destroying natural habitat, I meant people in general removing their habitat for housing or whatever.

But this is a classic example of what you want to do, is ok, but what others want is not. Removing wild animals absolutely affects the wild populations, to say it doesn't is not true, immediately you have one less in the population and if it is female then you have just reduced the future population, especially when there are most likely already large numbers in captivity that can be bred to fuel the market.

You do not need evidence to show this, it is just common sense.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

Let’s put things in to prospective a bit Boa, if a cross bred snake was kept in an area that it did not naturally occur in and escaped into the wild and there were naturally species in that same area that were of a different species but were members of the same genus then undoubtedly there would be tainting of wild populations. If how ever the escapee were still a cross but naturally in the area where it escaped into did not naturally contain that genus then tainting that population would be extremely unlikely.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

PB i think Boa was saying something more along the lines of if a jungle escaped into coastal territory. In this case it could definately cause damage to the wild gene population just as much as a hybrid could.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

I have to go and do some work now, be back later... keep my place warm for me eh?

J.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

Snakewrangler, read the following and if you still do not understand it then probably never will. And please don’t take offense. 

For 40 thousands years the natives have harvested pythons and lizards for food here in the Pilbara. There were in fact 30 different tribes spread across different parts of the Pilbara alone. Now lets consider the possibility that one reptile was taken for food per day by each tribe. If this figure was close then over a one year period all Pilbara tribes combined would have harvested a total of 10 950 reptiles and including many that would have been gravid. Over a thousand year period they would have harvested 10 950 000, and over 40 thousand years it would be around 43 million reptiles killed, let alone the reptiles killed in that period from regular land burning. Surprise, surprise, BHPs, Woma’s, lizards, etc are still very, common. 
Why? The answer is partly because those species have more than one hatchling or young to compensate for predation, and death from natural environmental pressures.
Aboriginals were also natural predators and a part of that equation.15 licensed W.A takers who do not possess the same tracking skills as the aboriginals couldn’t wipe these species out by wild collecting even if they wanted to.

Sorry that this has gone off the thread subject as I do not want this to happen


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I have to go and do some work now, be back later... keep my place warm for me eh?
> 
> J.



And a beer cold for yah  

Or should you get a bourbon?? 8)


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 25, 2006)

PB, I haven't taken offence. 

Once again, we see the same mentality. If I don't "understand" things the same as you then I must be wrong or incapable of understanding, when did your ideas/beliefs/morals/whatever become superior to mine? Where do you get this inate "correctness", please I want to know.

What you have just presented doesn't change the fact that I think continuing to take animals from the wild is not necessary anymore, there are more than enough in captivity to sustain our hobby, that is how you justify your actions which is fine, but that doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong and it doesn't mean that I am right and your are wrong, both of our opinions are subjective.


---EDIT---

Just to tie this into the theme of the thread, the same applies to hybridisation, there is no right or wrong answer. There is a BEST solution, but your belief on the matter is just as valid and correct as mine, even when they disagree because our beliefs do not depend upon each other.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes that was exactly what I was saying.



waruikazi said:


> PB i think Boa was saying something more along the lines of if a jungle escaped into coastal territory. In this case it could definately cause damage to the wild gene population just as much as a hybrid could.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

2+2 will all ways equal 4 and always will, just as facts are facts regardless of my opinion or any body else’s. The trouble is many people don't believe what is fact and therefore have little credibility in an argument when they don't. What I say or do is not said to try to justify what we are doing as clearly we don't have to. It is more to educate or bring to attention what is so often misunderstood and emotionally biased by so many who have little knowledge of what sustainable harvesting is all about. I think we should start another thread though on the ethics of wild collecting perhaps as this hybrid discussion is to important to mix with the wild collecting drama don’t you think?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Actually I'm a red wine man myself - couldn't you guess!!? I think SnakeWrangler, that for every reptile taken from the habitat (within reason of course) and as long as the habitat remains intact, there will be an individual of the same species ready to move into it's place. That's pretty much regarded as fact by the scientific community. 

And I disagree that all points of view have equal weight in this ethical debate. If it is an ethical issue, and it has the potential to damage, then it should not be done indiscriminately.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

Absolutely, I look forward to it but don't hold your breath waiting for the legislation :lol: 



Pythoninfinite said:


> Yeah, I reckon we're doing really well so far - congrats all, especially you Boa, I'll have to buy you a beer sometime... after the legislation is passed... lol


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

Cab Sav or Merlot? LOL :lol:


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## Glimmerman (Jul 25, 2006)

Is banning Hybridisation going to stop the people that have already bred two sub species of Antaresia together and sell it as a childreni? Or a Diamond mother x Jungle father, produce Diamonds with dominant high yellow colour and sell it as a Gosford or High Yellow Diamond? I believe this will only strengthen this ill behaviour of misconception. All the dishonest breeders will then just identify it by what the dominant physical presentation resembles. Looks like a Diamond, Jungle, Mac, Coastal and so on.

Yes hybridisation is damaging to the purity level in the evolotionary gene pool. I think we can all agree on this, but isn't line / in breeding also (as discussed in other threads). I'm German X Welsh (I've got a damaged gene pool also :wink: Doesn't mean I don't know my background. And I still breed :lol: Even though a few will say that I shouldn't :roll: ) What about the Dingo.? Why does it then on the NSW DEC www state that no permit is required to keep a Dingo and that they are not protected? http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npws.nsf/Content/Mammal+keepers+licence - Is it not detrimental or damaging to the gene pool for people to breed this species into other canines (Dingo x German Sheperds, Dingo x Kelpie etc)? What if this animal gets out into general wild population, becomes pack dogs etc.) Or this being obsurd because a Dingo X would be noticed in suburbia.

How many Poodle X's do we have to see before someone steps in and bans hydrid K9's. Yes I know, These are not Protected Australian Fauna, but the principles are the same.

IMO I think it would be better to keep these species on licence and registered with DEC authorities, this way when you sell an animal you will have to sell it as it is recorded in your book. But hey, rules and legislation are only for honest people.

I am enjoying this thread very much, I am glad it hasn't gone to s**t . I have enjoyed reading every ones opinions and it is good to see so many passionate keepers out there - even if our opinions vary. 

Happy Herping :lol:


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 25, 2006)

I never said it was not ethical for you to take from the wild, if fact if anyone is going to take from the wild then I would hope that they would only do it when it is sustainable, you are missing my point. Just because it is sustainable does not make it right, think about it, you are taking an animal from its natural environment and putting it in a box, this would have affects on that individual, there are many ways to look at a situation and hybrids are no different. Some people have suggested that one animal doesn't have heat pits and that it might somehow notice they are missing, but you cannot miss what you never had, the snakes you are taking know full well what they are missing out on.

I am not trying to start a debate on taking herps from the wild, the point I am making is completely relevant to hybrids and completely valid, as is yours. There is however a good solution that fits all, you would do better in my opinion to advocate proper management of hybrids rather than ban them because that will force people into a situation where they do the very things that you forsee happening with hybrids, if it were properly managed the problems could be by and large avoided. I mean we all know that it will happen wether it is illegal or not.

Jamie, it is only those that feel they have a "superior" opinion that would say all views don't have equal weight, in fact in my opinion ANY given situation can be resolved with both sides of an argument getting a satisfying result, it just takes work and cooperation.

Anyway, if you reply to this I will read it but I have given up on going any further with it. Just hurry up and get it banned and we can ALL go and have a beer (or wine if your into that kind of thing ) together.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 25, 2006)

Snakewrangler
I know what you mean about the time it takes to debate and discuss this here, I am currently getting an ear full from my girl friend for not leaving the computor alone and doing some work.
This disscussion in my opinion has been interesting and I am sure it will continue.
Is there any symbols that shows yawning ?


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

> Glimmerman wrote: I'm German X Welsh (I've got a damaged gene pool also Doesn't mean I don't know my background. And I still breed



Actually that just means you're a cross   :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Hey Glimmerman, dingoes and domestic dogs are the same species, so breeding them together isn't hybridisation, and their behaviour probably just reflects the difference between wild (dingo) and captive-bred (dog), as does the behaviour of our snakes.

I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do. There will always be people who are blind to the consequences of their actions, but the more information they have, hopefully the better the decisions they will make.

It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted: 

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Hey Glimmerman, dingoes and domestic dogs are the same species, so breeding them together isn't hybridisation, and their behaviour probably just reflects the difference between wild (dingo) and captive-bred (dog), as does the behaviour of our snakes.

I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do. There will always be people who are blind to the consequences of their actions, but the more information they have, hopefully the better the decisions they will make.

It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted: 

Jamie


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

People are going to do it weather you like it or not wether it is legal or not, that is fact. The best way to stop or minimise the the problem of these animals contaminating pure blood lines is to set up a system where they can and have to be sold legally and ethically as what they really are. Banning/making it illegal will not work, it will only make it harder to track.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

I think it's already just about impossible to track...

J.


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

The problem is that you don't seem able to see any side other than yours. You have decided it is best to lead people to make wise decisions as long as they match yours " make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) " There are 2 sides to this argument but you don't seem willing to see the other side at all. To you it spells the end of the hobby as we know it and that just isn't the case and to call people stupid and selfish really doesn't help your cause. 
You have to be able to see the other side of this.



Pythoninfinite said:


> I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do.
> 
> It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted:
> 
> Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 25, 2006)

Tell me how it would work in an ideal world Boa... and don't forget that you are just as entrenched with your ideas as I am, but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you (an assumption I know, but I have a feeling...)

Jamie.


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## JandC_Reptiles (Jul 25, 2006)

Just go out &amp; cross breed rattle snakes with pythons. 
Film the offspring, name the title "venom" and charge a $13 cover price to watch it.


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## waruikazi (Jul 25, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Tell me how it would work in an ideal world Boa... and don't forget that you are just as entrenched with your ideas as I am, but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you (an assumption I know, but I have a feeling...)
> 
> Jamie.



Jamie imagine a world where the things i have suggested are done.

Bang an ideal world!


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## Retic (Jul 25, 2006)

To be honset in an ideal world people get to make up their own minds, the biggest plus of being able to live in an ideal world is that you are able to decide what you think is the best option. Our ideal world would in all likelyhood be the same world as we would both be free to do what we considered right.

I'm not actually sure what " but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you " means ? I have kept reptiles for more than 30 years and have seen it all over the years. 



Pythoninfinite said:


> Tell me how it would work in an ideal world Boa... and don't forget that you are just as entrenched with your ideas as I am, but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you (an assumption I know, but I have a feeling...)
> 
> Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2006)

OK, so it's a new day... I'll summarise my thoughts about hybridisation, even if everybody's tired of the thread by now...

Arguments in support:

Some can be attractive animals.
Some people want something different.
Everybody should, in principle, be able to do whatever they like with their animals, regardless of perceived or real consequences.

Arguments against :

Real potential to pollute our limited captive gene pool
Most people don't keep comprehensive records (and don't tell me they do or will, because they DON'T and WON'T!), especially beyond 1 generation, or when a reptile passes through multiple collection, so beyond the breeder, who knows? 
Probably (my assessment) most hybrids from any clutch/litter are unspectacular, sold to the undifferentiating pet market and spilled into the "system"
Introduction of contaminated genetic material is irreversible without euthanasing all hybrid animals
Many hybrid animals will manifestly look like their parents (one or the other) and will be largely indistinguishable from true species, but will carry their genetic pollution forward 

Owning a reptile is not a right, it is a privilege permitted under licence in all states. Along with that privilege comes, not only a set of responsibilities, as defined on your licence, but also serious ethical responsibilities with regard to the future of your hobby. Nobody has yet told me how we will track hundreds/thousands of genetic mongrels once they leave the hands of their caring and responsible breeders, every one of which will advise the buyer of the provenance of their animals. It can't be done. 

I consider the arguments against to be far stronger than the arguments for. Regardless of the fact that it is already happening out there, whatever needs to be done, should be done, to discourage hybridising of reptiles in captivity.

Jamie.


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## Glimmerman (Jul 26, 2006)

> Most people don't keep comprehensive records (and don't tell me they do or will, because they DON'T and WON'T!), especially beyond 1 generation, or when a reptile passes through multiple collection, so beyond the breeder, who knows?



:idea: Jamie, On this matter, How do you think a microchipping concept would work? 

Say you had to register yourself as a breeder and were then given a Breeders Identification Number (supplied by your states DEC). This number was stored on a database (similar to Dogs &amp; Cats). You then have to microchip all your offspring, and they can not leave your care until this has been done, recorded and submitted. The information recorded on the form assosiated to the ID Chip Number could be, Species, locality, Mother / Father bloodlines, Hatch Date etc.

Then it would all be recorded and that lil critter has a chip that states its background, regardless of how many carers it went through. 

I can see people eyes :shock: thinking of the $$$ value, I cant forsee the initial set up costing more than $1000 per breeder. The cost of each chip is only a few dollars. If you are a serious breeder then I think this would only be a small price to pay. 

Just a suggestion - {goes hides in a corner out with fingers in ears, with flame suite on} :wink:


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## Retic (Jul 26, 2006)

Jamie, the problem is that as you are on the 'anti' side of the argument you will reluctantly come up with a very short list of pros and a long list of cons, that is just the way it is. You are obviously going to find more - than +'s. 
The thing I object to is this sort of statement " whatever needs to be done, should be done, to discourage hybridising of reptiles in captivity. " It shouldn't be up to either one of us to decide what someone else thinks is OK or not. You don't agree with it but that does NOT mean it is unacceptable, it DOES mean it's unacceptable to you but not necessarily the majority.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2006)

No flame suit needed for me mate - I'm the most mild mannered bloke you could ever find  lol. In principle could work well, in practice would be difficult due to the size of the animals when they are sold. You probably couldn't microchip a carpet youngun till it was about 18 months-2yo I would say. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or there ar very small ones available now.

I know there will always be people out there doing this stuff regardless, but the fewer of them the better, and if we as a group can educate keepers to see that hybridising will be harmful in the medium - long term, and if the discouragement is generally successful, then we've had a win.

Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2006)

No flame suit needed for me mate - I'm the most mild mannered bloke you could ever find  lol. In principle could work well, in practice would be difficult due to the size of the animals when they are sold. You probably couldn't microchip a carpet youngun till it was about 18 months-2yo I would say. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or there ar very small ones available now.

I know there will always be people out there doing this stuff regardless, but the fewer of them the better, and if we as a group can educate keepers to see that hybridising will be harmful in the medium - long term, and if the discouragement is generally successful, then we've had a win.

Jamie.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 26, 2006)

I think you would get a real surprise what the majority really think of people cross breding species Boa. And I am not just talking about reptile keepers.
Any way that enough from me today, I am off to work. Have a good day guys.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2006)

Boa, you are MOST welcome to come up with a list of your own, please feel free to add to the list of positives if you can, I welcome the debate. The community as a whole has the right (and the obligation) to decide what should be done for the common good, not in all circumstances, but certainly in some. Why do we have laws which, to use your example from yesterday, dictate the speed of cars in built-up areas, manage the distribution of (most) handguns in the community, or attempt to control drugs? Those regulations are imposed for the common good at the request of the community, some of them work pretty well, some of them some of the time, and some of then not very well at all. But sadly Boa, life is not, and can't be, a free-for-all because some people lack the judgement not to impose on others.

But that's actually getting off the track a bit, as I said, please put your arguments up here as I've done, rather than commenting more on the way I've done it. I've asked you previously to tell me how it would be managed to prevent the problems arising, but all I get is comments about how one-eyed I am...

It might surprise you that I'm actually not a pro-legislation person - resort to legal avenues would ALWAYS be a final option in my book, and after 40 odd years in a bureaucracy associated with wildlife management, nobody is more aware than I am about how they operate, and what their agendas are. I do think that the fauna laws in Australia are poorly thought out and rarely work to the benefit of the fauna the laws are designed to protect. I do think that keepers should have access to more material, even wild-caught, because a limited or managed take does far less harm to wild populations than the wholesale habitat destruction we see every day. Collecting from roads is a perfect way to collect animals which would otherwise meet it's demise, for example... So I'm certainly not ready to go down the legislation path without a good deal of thought...

My dislike of hybridising is based on consideration of the possibilities, and the facts as I understand them, but I'm a pragmatic man, and if you can demostrate to me that the benefits outweigh the negatives, I'm with youall the way :mrgreen: .

AND, just to prove I'm a beautiful, even-handed man, I heard THIS VERY MORNING of a potential carpondro breeding in one of the southern states THIS VERY SEASON, so if you're interested Boa, I'll keep you posted... How's that???

You can't get better than that!

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 26, 2006)

Jamie, thank you for that. The way I look at it is in my eyes there doesn't have to be a pros and cons list where one outweighs the other, I mean of course you could say it will be disastrous for all keepers in the long term and I could say it wont be, because I don't think it will be. If you look at your arguments against it is ALL based on the fact that they will get into the system un noticed and contaminate the whole gene pool, I can of course counter that by saying I don't think that will happen.

I really don't have to outweigh the positive and negatives, if as I have said in my opinion it wont be the end of pure keeping we know it then I don't need to counter your argument. 

I certainly would be interested in hearing about the carpondros, not to buy as I would sooner produce my own :lol:


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2006)

Now come on Boa... you can't just say you don't have to balance the argument after we've gone this far... You really do have to tell me how the stock will be permanently marked as hybrid once it leaves the breeders at least... just tell me how you would prevent it happening...

I'll keep you posted on the carpondros though...

Jamie.


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## Monkeyman (Jul 26, 2006)

That Carpondro is gorgeous


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 26, 2006)

I know I said I was not going to get into again, but what the hell. :lol:

I am interested to know what people have in mind when they think about hybrids. Are you thinking, carpondros, comas, etc... Are you thinking crossing subspecies... or Are you talking about both as equally bad or good?

I personally think that if two animals will on their own accord breed together and the offspring would be viable and fertile, then it is not unnatural, even if they would never see each other in the wild. On the other hand, I think animals that would not breed together naturally and need to be artificially inseminated is an entirely different thing. Not that I think the latter should not be done, but I just see them as different.

I think it is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that all buyers know what they are getting and that they need to be responsible with them. Saying that a buyer could buy an animal and not know its history as hybrid or pure implies that the seller was dishonest, no one is immune to dishonesty, if someone wants to sell the animals that look pure as pure then anyone can be fooled.

But consider the obvious here, if someone is dishonest enough to sell a hybrid as pure then do you really think that they are going to stop breeding hybrids because the law says no? The only people who would be affected by such a law are those that would be honest about it anyway, the honest people will not breed them because it is against the law and the dishonest will do it and sell them as pure. So nothing is really gained by making it illegal, I completely agree that there needs to be more education about these things but banning hybrids is not the answer IMO.

Jamie, to be completely honest I think you are viewing this through rose coloured glasses, you seem to think that making it illegal will curb the problem to the point where it will be a non-issue, but that is simply wishful thinking and not reality.


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## Australis (Jul 26, 2006)

SnakeWrangler said:


> I think it is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that all buyers know what they are getting and that they need to be responsible with them. Saying that a buyer could buy an animal and not know its history as hybrid or pure implies that the seller was dishonest, no one is immune to dishonesty, if someone wants to sell the animals that look pure as pure then anyone can be fooled..



Even if every single breeder was honest, it still wouldnt control the problem. One single hybrid could change hands several times over its reproductive life, tainting many lines.. Does "Chinese Whispers ring a bell"?

Making it illegal, might not be prevent many people from breeding them, but it may just reduce the desire for people to buy a illegal animal..


Matt


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 26, 2006)

Hey Matt, once sold the responsibility lies with the new owner, if they sell the animal then an honest person would state the history of the animal, again, not doing so would make the person dishonest and the law would have virtually no effect in the situation anyway.

Also, making it illegal may make people stop buying hybrids, but it will not stop them buying a hybrid sold as pure, which is exactly what the dishonest people will do to sell their animals.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 26, 2006)

You're getting caught up in semantics there SnakeWrangler - what Matt says is exactly what I've been saying, if you read my posts again. I have never said it will prevent people from hybridising, those that want to do it, even if it is illegal, will still do it, because they can - and frankly, even with legislation, the chances of getting caught are slim. I have never suggested it will become a non-issue, if you read what I wrote yesterday, I spoke of MINIMISING the problem, not eliminating it.

I'm far from having rose colured glasses, after decades of dealing with reptile people by the way. 

Tell me how many reptile sellers in the states that allow retailing seriously consider the provenance of the animals they buy IN BULK to on-sell to pet keepers, when they buy them unfed, full clutches at a time, sometimes hundreds of animals at a very low price. The only thing they are interested in is PRICE, nothing else, believe me. Not even the overall health of the animals is of much concern, as long as they can get them out the door asap and realise a quick return. What pet keeper asks for a pedigree when buying their first pet snake? They don't, because they often know barely enough to keep it alive in the first place, let alone seek answers to questions they haven't even thought of.

In the life of any given reptile, it may pass through several keeper's hands, and as I said before (if you read my posts), record keeping is not a strong point for any but the most obsessed individuals. The history of individual animals is long forgotten after the first change of hands.

All we can do is attempt to minimise hybridising by indicating clearly to keepers that it is potentially damaging to the hobby, and one way of doing that would be to make it clearly a condition of the licence... 

That's fair.

Jamie.


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## waruikazi (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm so over this thread! :roll: it's been going around in circles for days, I would suggest to both sides (including the side i am on) to find some middel ground and do something about your concerns wether through talking to your parks and wildlife authority or member of parliament. As of this point I'm out!

SUL :!:


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## star11 (Jul 27, 2006)

That was a good read guys.....Well done!! :wink:


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## snakegal (Jul 27, 2006)

This may be the biggest thread ever?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

Not bad for an old bloke eh?

J.


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## adderboy (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting read, and for the record, I agree with you, Jamie. Hybridisation would add to the uncertanty of what you're buying (already enough with dubious "locality" descriptions, dodgy intra-genus hybrids such as jungle crosses being passed off as diamonds, etc) and as you say down the track, in a world of limited or no taking from the wild, we'll have no "true" species in captivity, which in my opninion is highly undesirable, and I'd suggest that would be the opinion of most.

By the way, I noted a reference to Ray Hoser doing something odd with elapids - without venom? What's that about? 

Simon


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## Australis (Jul 27, 2006)

Adder6 said:


> By the way, I noted a reference to Ray Hoser doing something odd with elapids - without venom? What's that about?
> Simon




Its not just Odd its cruel, He puts the snake that he wants to destroy into a fridge, and then after being chilled to near death straps it down to a piece of non-sterile wood with elastic bands and nails. then removes the venom glad with out using anything to control pain!!

Then travels around Australia making money off the cruel act, claiming how important it is two be able to hold several of Australias most deadly animals all at once to compare them. :roll: :roll: 

Im sure ill be labled a "Hoser Basher" or "Hoser Hater", for these above comments, but so be it :lol:


Matt


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 27, 2006)

How do you guys feel about people who let their animals escape that are not native to the area? This is a bigger threat than hybrids, I don't see anyone kicking up a big stink about that. People post here that they have lost a snake and people respond with things like "don't worry about it, it happens to everyone"!!

I would sooner destroy the entire captive population than allow the wild populations to be tainted from escapees. Maybe we should be banning anyone from keeping animals that are not native to their area? Of course this would mean we all would have to give up most if not all of our collections.

What do you think?


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## shamous1 (Jul 27, 2006)

*Get ready*



SnakeWrangler said:


> How do you guys feel about people who let their animals escape that are not native to the area? This is a bigger threat than hybrids, I don't see anyone kicking up a big stink about that. People post here that they have lost a snake and people respond with things like "don't worry about it, it happens to everyone"!!
> 
> I would sooner destroy the entire captive population than allow the wild populations to be tainted from escapees. Maybe we should be banning anyone from keeping animals that are not native to their area? Of course this would mean we all would have to give up most if not all of our collections.
> 
> What do you think?



Hope you have your flame suit on. 8)


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I thought I felt things heating up... :lol:

Now fully dressed for the occasion. Thanks.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

Good... I think, for the purposes of this discussion, we can stick to the subject of captive hybridisation. Many snakes won't thrive if they escape into a foreign environment - they are adapted to a set of environmental conditions which suit that species particularly. When we have them in captivity we offer them a fairly generalised environment which most of them are comfortable in, but in doing so we knock off the extremes of the external environment to which they are subjected outside. There will be a few exceptions (hence the exotic debate, but we won't go there at the moment...) but for example, diamonds don't thrive in Darwin (and usually die after a couple of years if no cooling is available), and NT carpets wouldn't do too well in a Melbourne winter. Wild reptiles from different areas are adapted to a particular niche, whether it be temps, day length, humidity or whatever, they all have to come together to make breeding possible, and for the foreigner and the local to get together it would have to happen at the same time. This is unlikely, even if the foreigner did survive long enough to even think about breeding.

Even if it did happen, it would not be anywhere near as concentrated an attack on genetic integrity as the release of genetically polluted animals into the relatively small captive gene pool, especially where a large number of animals survive with our good husbandry skills. Most progeny from wild breedings die or are predated on long before they can breed.

Jamie.


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## PilbaraPythons (Jul 27, 2006)

I think I would be more comfortable if I found non endemic water pythons living in a pond in Alice Springs that a Bredli population that looked like jungles. :shock: :lol:


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I was not comparing captive hybrids and wild animals because there is no comparison, of course the genetic "attack" would be more servere in captivity, but it only takes a single escapee in the wild to survive and to pollute the wild genes and it is there forever, even if the initial affect was only mild, eventually the genes would spread throughout most of the population given enough time, even quicker if the escapee is a male. It would be foolish to think that all escapees die, that is very unrealistic.

I am more than a little suprised that you are willing to play that risk down. I am wondering why you would be more concerned over captive animals than the wild ones, if we were only allowed to keep native species then it would be impossible to breed hybrids anyway, except those that occur together, but if they are sub-species then they would naturally breed anyway.


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## Glimmerman (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

At least I can still keep elapids in Sydney. Either that or it gives me a dam good excuse to relocate to FNQ or similar :lol: 
Then again the amount of corns etc found around here of late, they might become native to my area and we might just keep them (exotic or not).


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## Retic (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I certainly agree that the effect of an escapee shouldn't be played down, there is absolutely no reason to think a escapee would die before it could do it's damage. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking a snake can only survive in it's own little environment, how many of us give our animals EXACTLY the conditions they would get in the wild ? Could a Bredli live in the Brisbane area ? Probably. A Jungle ? Almost definitely. Could Stimsons live where Spotteds come from ? No problem.


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## shamous1 (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I can't believe this thread has not blown up into a major cat fight. :lol: See everyone can get along.


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## Retic (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

Yes there could be a good reason for that but I'm not going to say


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

If you look at all the parameters I've considered, it's not just survival that's important - maybe a snake can survive in a foreign environment, but breeding successfully takes a lot more than survival. SnakeWrangler, to have succeeded in it's reproductive obligation, a pair of snakes need only produce 2 surviving offspring in it's life, to ensure the population remains stable, and that's from one or a dozen clutches, doesn't matter how many. The HUGE (sorry for shouting) success we enjoy in raising vast numbers of captive babies is simply not reflected in the wild, otherwise we would be overrun with snakes, being the highly fecund animals they are. Do Bredli cycle at the same time in the wild as a Brissy carpet? Probably not. Do jungles respond to the same factors that bring about breeding, at the same time in the wild? Probably not. Breeding takes a lot more than just survival.

It's good to see you back again Boa, I'm still waiting to see your list of benefits of hybridising, and also how you would mark those animals throughout their (possibly) very long lives.

SnakeWrangler, I don't understand what you were saying with regard to species/subspecies being able to breed. Subspecies are usually locality defined, and would generally in the wild only breed with that same subspecies. Where I live we get both normal and Bell's phase Lacies, but the are not split into subspecies, a lace monitor is a lace monitor, and from what I understand you can get both forms in one clutch of eggs.

The major point I am trying to make is that not one of you has come up with a good reason to hybridise, except that it produces (sometimes) pretty animals, and it is an infringement on your freedom not to be able to do it. Don't lose sight of reason for THIS thread - it's about hybridising in captivity. What happens to escapees is fodder for another thread in the future, and regardless of the assumptions you have made about my apparent lack of concern about that issue (and they are your assumptions), they are not relevant to this debate.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

Jamie, I have been here but just watching for awhile. I did actually talk about the list of benefits and how I don't consider it necessary to have a list of reasons for the existence of a hybrid. I love the look of carpondros as do a great many others judging by this thread and having talked to keepers. In my eyes it would be very difficult to sell off a carpondro as anything other than what it is. As for other hybrids I couldn't say, some look nice and some don't like any snake pure or otherwise. 
As for how would it be possible to keep track of these animals throughout their lives well again like anything you have to rely on keepers honesty as we do now. 
I do agree with others here, I can't see that making it illegal will actually acomplish anything. It's already illegal in Queensland and is commonplace.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I think that's abit of a cop-out Boa, but really all you can say is that you like the look of them, so you should be able to breed them. Actually carpondros (1st X) are probably a bad example because they are fairly conspicuous, but what happens with the next breeding, with either a carpet or a chondro, and the babies might be indistinguishable from one or the other. All I seek to do is encourage a community view that it is not an acceptable practice for the very valid reasons I have pointed out, and asked you to put the alternative view with valid reasons too. But I don't think you can, except for the comments you have already made.

And it may just be "commonplace" in Qld because the implications haven't been considered seriously until now. If the "authorities" become agitated about this issue, it won't be me who's responsible, it will be those doing it right now. Even if it is "commonplace" in Qld, it is illegal for very good reason.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

It's not a cop out at all, I like some hybrids plain and simple. I really don't have to compile a list of positives for me to find it acceptable.
YOU don't find it acceptable and that is absolutely fine but I just think you need to accept that others feel differently about the subject.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

Jamie, I do understand what you are saying but what has this got to do with anything, if a successful mating was to occur between a bredli and a coastal in the wild there would be survivors, even if it were only one this new snake would now be even more suitable for the environment than the original foreign parent, it would then go on to breed and all its surviving offspring would be tainted and on it would go.

To say that a mating could not happen between these two is wishful thinking, if a coastal and bredli being kept in captivity under the same conditions can breed, then why not in the wild? The conditions for each is not that far apart that it could not happen.

When I mentioned a sub-species breeding with another sub-species from the same area, I meant where the range of two different (coastal and diamond for instance) sub-species meet. People like to call them 'natural integrade' because it sounds better than hybrid, a natural integrade is nothing more than a hybrid, regardless of the amount of time over which they have developed. Besides what do you call a pure diamond that breeds with a natural integrade? I know people like to believe that the animals do not cross into each others ranges, but come one, how did the integrade come about in the first place? A coastal went into diamond territory or the other way around, they bred and now we have integrades, there are other ranges that meet where I am sure the exact same thing occurs.

So what if a coastal escaped from a house right in the middle of the diamond range? Surely you can see that it would survive and breed there.


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## cris (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I personally think having that while making/having hybrids illegal will reduce the number created it will also make ppl more inclined to sell off hybrids as pure animals since its illegal to sell them as hybrids.
This is one of the biggest problems IMO and it has nothing to do with if you like hybrids or not.

I think if they are legal but well regulated far fewer contamination problems will arise. 
Im sure the bulk of breeders are more interested in pure animals and i believe that they are perfectly capable of maintaining pure captive stock into the future.
At the end of the day in the worst case scenario we could always take more animals from the wild.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

SnakeWrangler, you make some assumptions which really are just that. Your assessment of diamond pythons and coastals coming together to produce intergrades is probably incorrect too - do you know that they were ever distinct and separate populations before they "came together"? What we call intergrades are just locality carpets, common on the mid-north coast where I live, just as diamonds are locality carpets from further south. They are NOT hybridised diamond/coastal carpet pythons. If you look at the carpet python continuum from northern Victoria, right up the coast to far noth Queensland you will see a sort of continual change throughout the range. As far as I know, there is no evidence that they were ever totally separated populations that spread into each other and "hybridised".

Bredli have been adapting over hundreds of thousands of years to live in an environment which is ferociously hot and dry in summer and very cold in winter, each of those seasons in central Australia is long and extreme. Coastals are adapted to a far milder, more humid climate here on the east coast, warm wet summers and brief, mild winters. I made a point before about the fact that we knock off the highs and lows in captivity, because they all seem to live OK under an "averaging" regime, but when exposed to the rigours of the great outdoors, it would be a different story. And you assume that they cycle at the same time and all that other stuff that they need to do to breed - very unlikely to happen.

Australia is full of animals which have specialised to be able to live where they do. Move them out of that area and they will not cope. I think the evidence is there, where has it happened to date, that a species (Australian) has become naturalised in an area with a totally different climate?

Jamie.


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## pugsly (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*



> What we call intergrades are just locality carpets, common on the mid-north coast where I live, just as diamonds are locality carpets from further south. They are NOT hybridised diamond/coastal carpet pythons. If you look at the carpet python continuum from northern Victoria, right up the coast to far noth Queensland you will see a sort of continual change throughout the range. As far as I know, there is no evidence that they were ever totally separated populations that spread into each other and "hybridised".



Here here!


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## cris (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

This is slightly off topic but dont jungle and coastal carpets both live in the same area naturally?


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

Oh no, a naturally occurring jungle/coastal cross - I get cross :evil: just thinking about it...

Thanks Steve, I'm on a campaign to get these damned, so-called "intergrades" referred to as "Port Macquarie" carpets as you know... Eric Worrell started the business of "intergrades" with his "Dorrigo-Kempsey" intergrade assumptions decades ago, and it sort has stuck.
As far as I know though, there is just no evidence to indicate they were a result of coastals coming south meeting diamonds coming north.

And people ALWAYS refer to them as hybrids, which they are not...

Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

Oh no, a naturally occurring jungle/coastal cross - I get cross :evil: just thinking about it...

Thanks Steve, I'm on a campaign to get these damned, so-called "intergrades" referred to as "Port Macquarie" carpets as you know... Eric Worrell started the business of "intergrades" with his "Dorrigo-Kempsey" intergrade assumptions decades ago, and it sort of stuck.
As far as I know though, there is just no evidence to indicate they were a result of coastals coming south meeting diamonds coming north.

And people ALWAYS refer to them as hybrids, which they are not...

Jamie.


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## Nagraj (Jul 27, 2006)

*RE: Get ready*

I,and I'm sure many others, fully agree with your viewpoint Pythoninfinite and you have presented a logical argument against hybridisation.


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