# frog ID's



## Ramsayi (Feb 11, 2018)

Can anyone ID these guys.Living in a heavily planted shady area of the garden among elkhorns near RNP.


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## Scutellatus (Feb 11, 2018)

I am thinking Leaf Green Tree Frogs (Litoria phyllochroa). I am not a frog keeper so I can't be sure but the stripe above the eye definitely fits.


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## Foozil (Feb 11, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> I am thinking Leaf Green Tree Frogs (Litoria phyllochroa). I am not a frog keeper so I can't be sure but the stripe above the eye definitely fits.


I agree, as you can see on this ALA map they are very common around the RNP:


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 11, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> I am thinking Leaf Green Tree Frogs (Litoria phyllochroa). I am not a frog keeper so I can't be sure but the stripe above the eye definitely fits.


That is el-correcto.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 11, 2018)

Thanks guys.Strange that there is no water around so at a bit of a loss as to why they are there.The brown one is a fair bit smaller than the green one.Am guessing male and female?


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## Scutellatus (Feb 11, 2018)

Ramsayi said:


> Thanks guys.Strange that there is no water around so at a bit of a loss as to why they are there.The brown one is a fair bit smaller than the green one.Am guessing male and female?


Tree frogs don't necessarily need a large water body to breed. They will do it anywhere there is standing water, ie: drainpipes, a bucket left in the yard that has collected water, a water tank etc.
I had a group living in my yard and all that was there was a bunnings 500L water tank. At one point the kids had collected ten juveniles, they could never find the adults though. They seemed to favour the pumpkin patch.


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## Foozil (Feb 11, 2018)

Scutellatus said:


> Tree frogs don't necessarily need a large water body to breed. They will do it anywhere there is standing water, ie: drainpipes, a bucket left in the yard that has collected water, a water tank etc.
> I had a group living in my yard and all that was there was a bunnings 500L water tank. At one point the kids had collected ten juveniles, they could never find the adults though. They seemed to favour the pumpkin patch.


And, of course, the toilet


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## Flaviemys purvisi (Feb 11, 2018)

Foozil said:


> And, of course, the toilet


Yep, have found them there too. I had a pair spawn in my dogs water bucket, a repurposed 4 litre ice-cream bucket. I've got 3 or 4 living in the drain pipe to my 1500 litre galvanised rainwater tank in the back undercover area. They cross the yard each night to visit my woody bin.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 13, 2018)

The ID is correct, given the expanded toe pads (Litoria), smooth skin and patternless green colour on the dorsum, with only a pale line edged below with a darker line, around the perimeter of the front half.

The majority of tree frog species do not need to live in or near a substantial body of water, except when breeding. They are essentially terrestrial. To conserve moisture they choose protected, often moist spots to remain inactive during the day to avoid the drying effects of the sun. Instead they are active at night when evaporation rates are low. In particularly hot, dry weather they will even remain inactive at night, and in wet weather they will become active during the day. The bases of elkhorns act like a sponge, soaking up water and retaining a lot of moisture. So these would make for an excellent daytime refuge where there would be little to no water loss from the frogs to their environment. Pot plant collection are also a favourite refuge for the same reasons. Frogs can rehydrate by burrowing into moist leaf litter or soil, or even soaking up the dew that collects on large leaves.


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## GBWhite (Feb 13, 2018)

Ramsayi said:


> The brown one is a fair bit smaller than the green one.Am guessing male and female?



The colour has nothing to do with defining sex. These guys can be either a light green or dark olive green as demonstrated with the pics.

As far as I'm aware the taxonomy of the species is currently under review with those south of Sydney from Wollongong to Eastern Victoria currently being classified as Litoria nudidigata and those from Sydney to Coffs Harbour classified as Litoria phyllochroa. On top of this they are assumed to hybridize in the zone between Wollongong and Sydney where they show characteristics of both species. So given that it's from the RNP south of Sydney it could be a hybrid of both.

Defining morphological characteristics which identify each species include;

L. nudidigata - tympanum (eardrum) located just behind the eye is indistinct
- shoulders red to black colour
L. phyllochroa - tympanum distinct
- shoulders red to brown

Either way What i did notice is that the light green one in the first pic appears to have a noticeable concave behind the eye indicating a visible tympanum.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 16, 2018)

Ramsayi said:


> Thanks guys.Strange that there is no water around so at a bit of a loss as to why they are there.The brown one is a fair bit smaller than the green one. Am guessing male and female?


 I didn’t really know anything about the biology of these guys but I now understand why you though it unusual there was not a stream or similar water body nearby. All I can suggest is that they have finished their breeding for the year and dispersed a little further afield to take pressure of limited food resources and having to compete with other frogs.



GBWhite said:


> …As far as I'm aware the taxonomy of the species is currently under review with those south of Sydney from Wollongong to Eastern Victoria currently being classified as Litoria nudidigata and those from Sydney to Coffs Harbour classified as Litoria phyllochroa. On top of this they are assumed to hybridize in the zone between Wollongong and Sydney where they show characteristics of both species. So given that it's from the RNP south of Sydney it could be a hybrid of both.
> 
> Defining morphological characteristics which identify each species include;
> 
> ...


In my experience the tympanum is not a particularly consistent distinguishing characteristic. A better one IMO (but still not perfect) is the size and length of the dark band along the edge of the head and down the side. Along with the light stripe, it is substantially broader and longer in _nudidigtatu_s and can be very black in colour in this species. 

Location is the best indicator of species, except in the zone of overlap. This starts just south of Sydney, around Stanwell Tops/Darkes Forest and extends to just past Wollongong.


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## GBWhite (Feb 16, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> In my experience the tympanum is not a particularly consistent distinguishing characteristic. A better one IMO (but still not perfect) is the size and length of the dark band along the edge of the head and down the side. Along with the light stripe, it is substantially broader and longer in _nudidigtatu_s and can be very black in colour in this species.
> 
> Location is the best indicator of species, except in the zone of overlap. This starts just south of Sydney, around Stanwell Tops/Darkes Forest and extends to just past Wollongong.



In my experience it is. The RNP is within the area where the two species overlap, the RNP runs from Stanwell Park to Loftus/Sutherland. Spent a good 2/3 of my youth and several of my adult years combining all the south coast for herps and found plenty of both within the boundaries of the RNP.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 16, 2018)

I also herped that area over while growing up, including Waterfall and Helensburgh (Kelly’s Creek area). It was a species I seldom came across and never once came across a heavily patterned individual like the southern species. I did come across more of them once old enough to drive and able to go out frogging on wet nights, However, I barely ever went to RNP for herping by then. Irrespective of where the boundary is, I consider the light coloured individual in the opening post to definitely be the northern species.


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## Foozil (Feb 16, 2018)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I also herped that area over while growing up, including Waterfall and Helensburgh (Kelly’s Creek area). It was a species I seldom came across and never once came across a heavily patterned individual like the southern species. I did come across more of them once old enough to drive and able to go out frogging on wet nights, However, I barely ever went to RNP for herping by then. Irrespective of where the boundary is, I consider the light coloured individual in the opening post to definitely be the northern species.


just out of curiosity, what other species did you find around there?


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## GBWhite (Feb 16, 2018)

Foozil said:


> just out of curiosity, what other species did you find around there?



Rather than add a long list I thought this might give you an idea.

https://frogs.org.au/frogs/of/New_South_Wales/


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## Foozil (Feb 16, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Rather than add a long list I thought this might give you an idea.
> 
> https://frogs.org.au/frogs/of/New_South_Wales/


Sorry meant reptiles/amphibians in general. I live near there and I would just like to know what you can find


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## GBWhite (Feb 16, 2018)

Foozil said:


> Sorry meant reptiles/amphibians in general. I live near there and I would just like to know what you can find



Buddy you need to buy a field guide for NSW reptiles and amphibians and do a bit of research.


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## Foozil (Feb 16, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> Buddy you need to buy a field guide for NSW reptiles.


I do.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 16, 2018)

GBWhite said:


> The colour has nothing to do with defining sex. These guys can be either a light green or dark olive green as demonstrated with the pics.



Would a single spawn produce both colour types?

Any point in giving them a permanent water source such as a half wine barrel with a small water pump to encourage them to stick around?


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## cris (Feb 17, 2018)

Ramsayi said:


> Would a single spawn produce both colour types?


Not sure about this species, but many frogs can just change colour green to gold/brown etc.


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## GBWhite (Feb 17, 2018)

Ramsayi said:


> Would a single spawn produce both colour types?
> 
> Any point in giving them a permanent water source such as a half wine barrel with a small water pump to encourage them to stick around?



That's a great question. Personally I don't know but I don't see why it wouldn't. I'll check with some friends who are into frogs and inquire if anyone breeds or has bred them to see if I can get an answer.

A barrel with a water pump might work but I think you'd have a better chance if you could build a little pond with a waterfall to simulate their prefered breeding environment.



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Bluetongue1 said:


> In my experience the tympanum is not a particularly consistent distinguishing characteristic.



Here you go Mike.

These are not my pics but provide an example of what I was referring to regarding the difference in the tympanum of each species. Top one is L phyllochroa. Bottom one is L nudidigata.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 17, 2018)

cris said:


> Not sure about this species, but many frogs can just change colour green to gold/brown etc.



Thanks.My knowledge of frogs is limited to say the least.




GBWhite said:


> That's a great question. Personally I don't know but I don't see why it wouldn't. I'll check with some friends who are into frogs and inquire if anyone breeds or has bred them to see if I can get an answer.
> 
> A barrel with a water pump might work but I think you'd have a better chance if you could build a little pond with a waterfall to simulate their prefered breeding environment.



Thanks George,space is a bit limited and am still looking for a place up your neck of the woods so would need to be something that wasn't too elaborate.


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## cris (Feb 17, 2018)

Ramsayi said:


> Thanks.My knowledge of frogs is limited to say the least.



I have no specific knowledge of this species, but many _Litoria spp_. can change colour and even pattern. There are also some situations where the colour is fixed to some extent by some sort of genetics, as you can see with blue green tree frogs, albinos etc. I would assume varying between light and dark green and brown etc. varies with environmental influence in this species too.


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## Bluetongue1 (Feb 17, 2018)

These guys are able to change colour from bright to dark green (almost brown). I suspect it’s probably due to background and lighting, as one I kept in a dark bag for a short time did that.

The half wine barrel of water placed near your elkhorns sounds great and would definitely help to retain frogs. As the LGFs apparently breed in moving water you can probably expect them to disappear in late winter and spring. Other species, such the Dwarf Sedge frog _L. fallax_ will possily breed in that volume of water if you include some emergent plants. Broader leaved emergent are better but not essential. I’d recommend to keep them in pots so they don’t take over. I actually grew some transplanted bulrushes in 90 mm pots this way. Periodically trimming the roots as they emerge from holes in the pots helps keep them under control and assists in maintaining water quality by removing a percentage of the organic matter. I have also used duckweed, a tiny floating plant, to help maintain water quality. When it builds up, scoop most of it out with an aquarium net - makes for excellent compost or mulch. Actually Bunnings have a reasonable selection of aquatic emergent plants, including the native fern Nardoo.
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Foozil said:


> just out of curiosity, what other species did you find around there?


In a previous thread we outlined the more common lizards and snakes found in your area. In terms of ground frogs, _Pseudophryne australis_ was the most common and also my personal favourite. There was also the occasional _P. bibronii_ and _Crinea signifera_. The most common tree frogs were _Litoria fallax_ and then_ L. aurea_, invariably located in the vicinity of water. There was also the odd _L. dentata_, _L. peronii_, what we used to call the ‘Brown Tree frog’, which I think was _L. verreauxi_ and _L. caerulea_. Apart from the Leaf Green tree frog I think there were a couple more but am not sure what species

Something like Frogs and Reptiles of the Sydney Region by Ken Griffiths for $25 would probably be a good investment. Someone might like to comment here because I have never had the opportunity to have a look at the book.


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