# Do reverse paradox exist?What’s your thoughts?



## Jackk2775 (Oct 28, 2019)

I have a caramel pepper jag who has recently started showing white patches in differed areas of its body. One of its off spring from 2016 has white coming through which is appearing more and more with each shed. This has been noticeable for around 1.5 years. What are your thoughts. Is there a reverse paradox? Iv checked the sheds and there was no damaged scales. 
Pics of both sire and one of its off spring (bottom)


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## Sdaji (Oct 28, 2019)

We're still not exactly sure whar a paradox is, but 'reverse paradox' doesn't mean anything/doesn't make sense, and what you have here is working on a completely different and unrelated mechanism. Whatever paradox is, it's congenital. Whatever yours is, is ontogenetic. I suppose those two things aren't mutually exclusive, but to look at it from another angle, paradox snakes contain two different genotypes (we don't know the mechanism which causes that result but we do know they have multiple genotypes, which is generally unusual) and your snake is certain enough to have the normal number of genotypes (one).


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## Herpetology (Oct 28, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> We're still not exactly sure whar a paradox is, but 'reverse paradox' doesn't mean anything/doesn't make sense, and what you have here is working on a completely different and unrelated mechanism. Whatever paradox is, it's congenital. Whatever yours is, is ontogenetic. I suppose those two things aren't mutually exclusive, but to look at it from another angle, paradox snakes contain two different genotypes (we don't know the mechanism which causes that result but we do know they have multiple genotypes, which is generally unusual) and your snake is certain enough to have the normal number of genotypes (one).


Can u explain why the typical albino paradox blacks can’t be pushed off into offspring? For example you can line breed a random stripe on one animal + another animal with a stripe and this will show in the offspring

When this comes to paradox, I.e keeping the black... nothing!

Drives me insane trying to put 2and2 together


On topic, I saw a post with a stimsons python that showed the same thing, wasn’t a paradox was just a weird freak haha looked really cool


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## Jackk2775 (Oct 28, 2019)

Herptology said:


> Can u explain why the typical albino paradox blacks can’t be pushed off into offspring? For example you can line breed a random stripe on one animal + another animal with a stripe and this will show in the offspring
> 
> When this comes to paradox, I.e keeping the black... nothing!
> 
> ...


[doublepost=1572242239,1572242201][/doublepost]I can’t explain it. K brothers did a youtube vid with Wayne parks which includes the paradox morph. Check it out it’s pretty good. 
I put my male back over the offspring so hopefully see something interesting when she lays.


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## Yellowtail (Oct 28, 2019)

I have a gravid paradox albino Darwin that I mated with a het male that has sired a few with minor paradox markings but nothing spectacular so we will see what happens.
This female exhibits additional visible paradox like marks when she is about to shed, not sure what that means. 
There is a breeder of albino Darwins that claims to be be able to line breed paradoxes and he has some for sale so it must be possible.
I heard Wayne Larks paradox died?


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## Bl69aze (Oct 28, 2019)

Yellowtail said:


> I heard Wayne Larks paradox died?



Unfortunately it died of a massive tumour in its face


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## Sdaji (Oct 29, 2019)

Jackk2775 said:


> [doublepost=1572242239,1572242201][/doublepost]I can’t explain it. K brothers did a youtube vid with Wayne parks which includes the paradox morph. Check it out it’s pretty good.
> I put my male back over the offspring so hopefully see something interesting when she lays.



Plenty of misinformation in that video had me cringing!
[doublepost=1572269161][/doublepost]


Herptology said:


> Can u explain why the typical albino paradox blacks can’t be pushed off into offspring? For example you can line breed a random stripe on one animal + another animal with a stripe and this will show in the offspring
> 
> When this comes to paradox, I.e keeping the black... nothing!
> 
> ...



Paradox is not a mutation which involves the changing of any particular genes/alleles. A paradox snake has two different genotypes in the same snake. Each cell in the body is either one type or another. When the snake breeds, only one genotype is used to produce each gamete (sperm or egg) so the offspring are generally normal. To whatever extent paradox is heritable we can attribute the heritability of the mechanism which causes the condition to occur. For example, many people consider it to be a strange type of chimerism, and the are some heritable factors which make the production of chimeras more likely, so in some cases you can select in this way. For that reason, a chimera from a line which produces many chimeras (or paradox or twins or Siamese twins etc) is more likely to produce more chimeras than a phenotypically identical snake which popped up at random, but this is highly unpredictable.

You'll probably need to spend some time looking up some of the terms above and give it some thought to wrap your head around the concept, but if it's too confusing, you can just know that paradox is not a medelian trait or a polygenic trait, it works on an entirely different genetic mechanism which your knowledge of basic genetics is not relevant to.

If you're feeling bad for being confused, keep in mind that this would test the comprehension of many of the people I studied genetics at university with (which also makes me feel a bit better for being unable to easily explain it to herpers!).


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## SheWentMad (Dec 15, 2019)

Yellowtail said:


> I have a gravid paradox albino Darwin that I mated with a het male that has sired a few with minor paradox markings but nothing spectacular so we will see what happens.
> This female exhibits additional visible paradox like marks when she is about to shed, not sure what that means.
> There is a breeder of albino Darwins that claims to be be able to line breed paradoxes and he has some for sale so it must be possible.
> I heard Wayne Larks paradox died?



Any updates on that pairing Yellowtail?
Would be very interesting to see how it all went


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## Yellowtail (Dec 15, 2019)

She wasn't gravid so better luck next time.
I had a few unsuccessful pairings this year possible due to my move from NSW and some heating/cooling problems with my new setup confusing their season.


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## SheWentMad (Dec 15, 2019)

Yellowtail said:


> She wasn't gravid so better luck next time.
> I had a few unsuccessful pairings this year possible due to my move from NSW and some heating/cooling problems with my new setup confusing their season.


Sorry to hear. Hope it all goes to plan next season
[doublepost=1576371272,1576366115][/doublepost]
Came across this the other day in an Iherp magazine which is the only reference to reverse paradox I have seen and describes it as a paradox with more normal than albino. Interesting to think about though.


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## Shikito123 (Aug 6, 2022)

You guys will love this beauty. She came from a moonglow X zebra Jag 
My girl Aurora. 

We have no idea what she is. Brent Smith reckons she's a chimera which is two animals joined together as embryos, or she could be a paradox (not the same as a chimera genetically, it's a random increase of melanin in certain areas) 

Howeverrrrr, both of those from what I've seen haven't developed more or less melanin as they get older. These photos are from yesterday and she's about 8 months old now. 




Brent Smith reckons she's a chimera of a ghost and a hypo normal. However the zebra Jag wasn't a het, so he thinks she got both copies of axanthic from the moonglow (dad) 

Being a hypo she obviously will get lighter, but the more she grows the more white she is getting. So will be very interesting to see how she changes in the future 


Shikito123 said:


> You guys will love this beauty. She came from a moonglow X zebra Jag
> My girl Aurora.
> 
> We have no idea what she is. Brent Smith reckons she's a chimera which is two animals joined together as embryos, or she could be a paradox (not the same as a chimera genetically, it's a random increase of melanin in certain areas)
> ...



This was her after her first shed
this was her straight from the egg


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## Africa RD (Aug 16, 2022)

Mesmerized! I want one!!!


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