# free handling elapids



## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

hay guys i was just wondering if anybody here free handles there elapids like you would a python (obviously with alot more care) 

i got asked the same question by a mate and i said i dont think anybody would and i can see any good reason why they would and that i never will but i was just wondering if anybody does and if so what are the reasons???


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## Vassallo2008 (Feb 27, 2009)

haha The Reason is There Crazy


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## Wild_Storm (Feb 27, 2009)

I am not game to state what I have witnessed others doing... I don't have a good enough flame suit. But yes there are people that do it... And they are still alive... Well they were the last time I checked!!!


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

so its generally not somthing your average life loveing herper does


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

and there is no really good reason to do it


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## Kersten (Feb 27, 2009)

If you mean are there people who let their elapids crawl all over them like their pythons would then yes. Some of them get lucky and don't get bitten. Some of them aren't so lucky and end up in hospital or dead.


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## bredli84 (Feb 27, 2009)

I would tell you to search this topic, but.......... most of the past threads are prob deleted


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## Wild_Storm (Feb 27, 2009)

Adrenaline my friend... Adrenaline... Apparently it gives a wonderful rush!!!! 

Personally I am NOT that in love with ALL snakes that I would be willing to free-handle anything other than a Python. Not even a live Brown Tree Snake. But that is off topic!!


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## JasonL (Feb 27, 2009)

There are people around who free handle elapids just like pythons, don't expect them to jump on this thread though and say they do.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

i did search the topic but it came up with bupkiss


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## dpeica (Feb 27, 2009)

What's a bupkiss?


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## gravitation (Feb 27, 2009)

Me and my king cobra snuggle infront of a warm fireplace on a winters night.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

bupkiss = nothing


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

i would like to hear from some of them who do just pm me i wanna know what they have on hand in case of the worst case senario


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## Kersten (Feb 27, 2009)

JasonL said:


> There are people around who free handle elapids just like pythons, don't expect them to jump on this thread though and say they do.



I'd be surprised if there are many elapid keepers out there who've not done it at some time. Some of them get over the need to do it pretty quickly. Others don't.

As for what thy'd have on hand....all you could really have is a bandage. Antivenene is prohibitively expensive and has a relatively short shelf life.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

fair nuff
i reckon its on of those things you have to try atleast once like free swimming with sharks or parachuting


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## Fuscus (Feb 27, 2009)

not me in photo, but I have swum with many a shark


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## gravitation (Feb 27, 2009)

I swam with a tiger snake. I'm not joking.

I just didn't know it was there.


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## JasonL (Feb 27, 2009)

Kersten said:


> I'd be surprised if there are many elapid keepers out there who've not done it at some time. Some of them get over the need to do it pretty quickly. Others don't.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Some do it just because they hate using hooks on their animals and don't see it as much of a problem.


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## JasonL (Feb 27, 2009)

OK OK, I'll tell you all now, I myself free handle elapids all the time, why just in the last two weeks I've free handled a bandy bandy, a swamp snake, and a couple of dwarf crowned snakes....risk taker I know, I just love to live on the edge.


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## jase75 (Feb 27, 2009)

Iv had some Tiger Snakes before that iv trusted more than any Python iv ever owned !


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## ryanharvey1993 (Feb 27, 2009)

jason what about that coastal taipan at smiths lake :lol:


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## ssssmithy (Feb 27, 2009)

some do it because they know their snakes and do it for conviency and because they feel more comfortable in doing so..... and sadly others brag doing it to be heros haha 
and yes as kersten stated.... i wouldnt know any serious elapid keeper that doesnt or hasnt done it before, just dont advertise the fact.


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## Kersten (Feb 27, 2009)

JasonL said:


> Kersten said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be surprised if there are many elapid keepers out there who've not done it at some time. Some of them get over the need to do it pretty quickly. Others don't.
> ...


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## DanTheMan (Feb 27, 2009)

I don't currently keep elapid's so I cant say that i do
But when I do start keeping them, I cant see a huge problem with free handling an animal I have had a long time, and trust.

I don't understand why people get so worked up over the fact that some people do free handle vens, as it is MY life, and if I die doing so, how does this effect you?
People go on that it gives the hobby a bad name, like it needs any help?
If any one is going to dislike snakes, especially vens, private keepers never being bitten by their pets is not going to change their mind.

I realise some people take it too far as they have ego issues, and some see themselves as hero's when getting bitten by the worlds most venomless, oops i mean venomous snake in the world


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## Hooglabah (Feb 27, 2009)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA I KNOW WHO YOUR TALKING ABOUT LOLSSSSSSSSS STILL LAUGHING STILL GOING okay im over it now.

p.s. the venomlessness in question is the reason i'll do that course as well as any i can get my hands on before i get an elapid i want uber maximo expiriance befor i do start that particular part of the hobby 

thanks guys you convinced me to never free handle elapid (not that i needed it but a bit of reienforceing always helps)

hooglabah


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## DanTheMan (Feb 27, 2009)

People who aren't keen to free handle have a better argument than free handlers, but the main reason I wouldn't mind doing it with a trust worthy snake is the feel of them, I'm sure any one who keeps snakes absolutley loves the feel of them, all pythons feel the same. But there's something different about elapids I just love.
The scales are so different, and big. Haha, I probably sound crazy


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## Ramsayi (Feb 27, 2009)

DanTheMan said:


> I don't currently keep elapid's so I cant say that i do
> But when I do start keeping them, I cant see a huge problem with free handling an animal I have had a long time, and trust.
> 
> I don't understand why people get so worked up over the fact that some people do free handle vens, as it is MY life, and if I die doing so, how does this effect you?
> ...



Unfortunately what you do with YOUR life could at some stage affect others with regard to vens.Apart from the medical costs (tax payer funded aside) if enough keepers ended up in hospital or dead it would be quite feasable that at some stage the keeping of elapids could be banned.Then there is also the bad publicity towards reptiles when these bites occur. 

If people want to keep vens thats fine but with it comes a certain responsibilty and it is irresponsible if those risks aren't minimised.


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## mark83 (Feb 27, 2009)

you wont see me handling them anytime soon


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2009)

Ramsayi, what you said is true. I used to knock around with vens keepers years ago that all free handled. Some were bitten by the pets that they "trusted", others were bitten by wildcaughts that they thought were placid. Everytime you hear about a keeper being bitten you hear people that don't keep say how stupid these people are to kep these animals in the first place. Why add fuel to the fire?

I used to free handle, I don't now because I don't want to end up causing my family unneccessary worry or being a bad newspaper story like what we've seen a few times in recent years. I also want to see my kids grow up.

Cheers,

Kris.


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## ecosnake (Feb 28, 2009)

I handled hots freely before and often when I was younger. There are species that you can trust more than pythons not to bite and others your just playing with fire, but there’s always the chance of a bite from a placid hot for whatever reason.
 To be honest I don’t do it anymore because I have more responsibilities in my life and issues surrounding free handling hots and possible bite is great. 
Species like RBB’s and Tigers are commonly free handled, taking a bite from either your most likely not going to die, species like browns and taipan even if it doesn’t kill you there potential on going health issues, some people never recover fully.
 It’s a free world and people can handle the snakes they want, handle at your own risk. 
Where keepers over step the mark is mocking someone who is responsible by not free handling their hots or showing off about free handling their hots or even promoting free handling hots and not commenting on the dangers surrounding it.


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## redbellybite (Feb 28, 2009)

this is an elapid,perfect free handling with no risk at all..got more chance being done by your python ,then with this little fella ...there are lots of elapids that are no worries to free handle ...


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## timpye1 (Feb 28, 2009)

i have seen it done many times.. when a keeper has a ven for a long time it generally settles down enough. not to say it wont snap one day though. obviously not to be done on a young snake!


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## megrim (Feb 28, 2009)

ecosnake said:


> It’s a free world and people can handle the snakes they want, handle at your own risk.



I think the point some people here are trying to make is that if people continue to be tagged and require hospitalisation by their own ven's, then eventually it won't be such a 'free world' as legislation would be put in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

I guess it'd sort of be like a gun lobbiest occaisionally shooting himself in the shoulder by accident  Doesn't really help the cause. That being said, accidents will, (and do), happen from time to time even without free handling.


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## emerald_taipan (Feb 28, 2009)

I used to free handle quite a lot in my younger days:red bellies, spotted blacks, tigers, taipans. But I hate hospitals and wouldn't recommend it. Not so much scared of death.
I only received two bites, one from a tiger and one from a red belly (wasn't free handling tiger when bitten and red belly was a juvenile). I have heard some truly horrific stories from experienced keepers who have been bitten. I wouldn't recommend free handling any elapid (someone near my town died from a little whip snake). i'm a lot more cautious these days.


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## redbellybite (Feb 28, 2009)

megrim said:


> I think the point some people here are trying to make is that if people continue to be tagged and require hospitalisation by their own ven's, then eventually it won't be such a 'free world' as legislation would be put in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
> 
> I guess it'd sort of be like a gun lobbiest occaisionally shooting himself in the shoulder by accident  Doesn't really help the cause. That being said, accidents will, (and do), happen from time to time even without free handling.


 could say the same thing about dogs ...more dog attacks and bites even to the one that feeds them ,then you have from ven keepers now ...I think anyone ,that has never had anything to do with vens are simply throwing one out there ...99% of ven keepers have their wits about them and know exactly what dangers they can encounter,,,sometimes ****** happens this is true ..but over all ven keepers do everything within their own capabilities ....


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## megrim (Feb 28, 2009)

redbellybite said:


> could say the same thing about dogs ...more dog attacks and bites even to the one that feeds them ,then you have from ven keepers now ...I think anyone ,that has never had anything to do with vens are simply throwing one out there ...99% of ven keepers have their wits about them and know exactly what dangers they can encounter,,,sometimes ****** happens this is true ..but over all ven keepers do everything within their own capabilities ....



Oh I know dogs are worse in that sense  The issue isn't to do with 99% of ven keepers being alert and sensible, which I'm most sure they are. As far as I can see the issue is that the percent of population that keeps vens is about 0.009%, meaning that the ven keepers themselves are about the only ones who truly understand the risks involved.

In a democratic society, ven keepers don't have much in the way of people power to stop silly knee-jerk reaction legislation if it should happen. All it's going to take is some middle-aged, fat white woman to scream "Won't someone think of the children", and ven keeping will be illegal in the blink of an eye. I think a lot of people realise this, and can see the part of keepers getting envenomated playing a part in it and are thusly not so keen for people to freehandle vens.

We here all realise that cars, guns, drugs, cigarettes, bee-stings and cholesterol are more dangerous than vens, but that's unlikely to calm down Mr and Mrs 'What is This World Coming To".

_Edit: _On the subject of both dogs and legislation, I was under the impression that some dog varieties have in fact already been outllawed in this country, though perhaps it's a state-by-state thing?.


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## -Peter (Feb 28, 2009)

dpeica said:


> What's a bupkiss?


 
I think it is one of those locale specific carpets.


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## elapid66 (Feb 28, 2009)

never free handled its just stupid


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## RELLIK81 (Feb 28, 2009)

i have seen people on youtube freehandle elapids ....


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## slacker (Feb 28, 2009)

Greebo said:


> Crikey! I didn't even know you could get venomous dogs!



What rock have you been living under?


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## redbellybite (Feb 28, 2009)

Greebo said:


> Crikey! I didn't even know you could get venomous dogs!


 greebo i realise your still in that honeymoon fase ......but if you had understood the jist of the post it was about the media hype and medical help ...and the person writing the post that i was quoting understood what i was saying ...so dont worry that head of yours go back to playing honeymooners ...And no greebo there are no venomous dogs but some of us females have a toxic bite:evil:.....


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

lol greebo

yeah im not going to be free handling any elapids the closest i'll ever come is a "venomoid" as i said i wanna do all courses first.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 28, 2009)

Boils down to knowing your animals well enough to eliminate "most" of the risk.
Ive kept hot elapids that were far more trust worthy than any python ive kept, but there is always a risk ,as said you just have to know your animals well enough.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

im still not going to risk it 

im not big on takeing life endangering risks


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

no matter how small.


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## TrueBlue (Feb 28, 2009)

So you dont drive a car at all.? Or ever go for a ride in a car.??? Every time you venture on to the roads your taking quite a large life threatening risk.


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## rockman (Feb 28, 2009)

Where's Johnno , i think he is the "risk minimisation " elapid handler ? . 

Ask him , will all of his experience , he off anyone here , will be able to help you . 

Cheers Mate


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## antaresia_boy (Feb 28, 2009)

i was talking to somebody today who does it with his RBB... But it is an amazingly placid snake i hear.


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## Kersten (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh the irony :lol:


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## ssssmithy (Feb 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> So you dont drive a car at all.? Or ever go for a ride in a car.??? Every time you venture on to the roads your taking quite a large life threatening risk.


 
:lol: so tru.

each elapid handler has there own "style" or tecnique,some free handle 90%of the time others choose not too.
as true blue said it come down to knowing your snakes well enough and knowing your ability also. 
its not smething that needs to be debated or said if its right or wrong.


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## waruikazi (Feb 28, 2009)

I used to be dead set against it but after having worked with hots i think ur at just as much risk of being bitten from tailing them.


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## caustichumor (Feb 28, 2009)

Freehandling venomous snakes is so 1999, Now it's all about how many you can juggle while riding a unicycle.....


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## licky (Feb 28, 2009)

lol i cant see why you wouldnt handle a tame elapid..i mean people handle large olives and scrubbies and loads of people give scrubbies a bad rap


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## Vincent (Feb 28, 2009)

What exactly is "freehandling"? Is "freehandling" letting a snake crawl all over yourself???... or is it simply holding any snake without the aid of a hook or any other tool?

Believe it or not, some venomous snakes in a captive situation can actually be managed more safely and efficiently without the use of a hook or grabber. It all depends on the person's handling ability, and their ability to "read" a snake. Some people rate themselves better at these points than what they actually are. This is the problem.

In regards to "trust"..... I dont trust any snake, venomous or not. Sure some species are more predictable and "stable" than others...... but i dont trust any reptile whats so ever.

I guess the final words are "each to their own". What people do in the refines of their own homes is their business.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

yes just to clarify im am saying free handling in referance to letting the snake crawl all over you like you would a python not moveing it from one enclosure to anther with your bare hands that in some cases would make sense rather than mucking around with a hook.


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## Vincent (Feb 28, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> yes just to clarify im am saying free handling in referance to letting the snake crawl all over you like you would a python



I wouldnt let any python crawl over me. Seriously. Anyone who know's me will back me up on that.

In regards to elapids, it's simple really..... are you willing to accept the consequences?? 99% of the time you'll get away with it. But how many people are ready for that 1%???? Most aren't.


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## elapid66 (Feb 28, 2009)

ive see people get bit free handling funny as


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## Vincent (Feb 28, 2009)

elapid66 said:


> ive see people get bit free handling funny as


\

Yeah.... I have to agree elapid66, i find it very funny as well. But not everyone share's our sense of humour. But i've also given some mates something to laugh about over the years.


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## dpeica (Feb 28, 2009)

You monsters. No bites are a laughing matter..or something like that.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

TrueBlue said:


> So you dont drive a car at all.? Or ever go for a ride in a car.??? Every time you venture on to the roads your taking quite a large life threatening risk.



funny you mention that cuz i dont im a great believer in the power of legs.

however i do realise the neccesity of being able to drive however i can see no good or beneficial reason to "free handle" epapids


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## jcbrisbane (Feb 28, 2009)

I would pay money to watch some one free handle a brown or a tiapan like you would a python.


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## elapid66 (Feb 28, 2009)

i love the look on there face just as they realise they just got nailed its gold


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## elapid66 (Feb 28, 2009)

jcbrisbane said:


> I would pay money to watch some one free handle a brown or a tiapan like you would a python.


seen it done heap of times


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## dpeica (Feb 28, 2009)

jcbrisbane said:


> I would pay money to watch some one free handle a brown or a tiapan like you would a python.



I guess I'll be the first to start the photos rolling..







I want a flock of raging do-gooders to start going wild now..don't let me down.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

its always funny when my super "tough" mates dont have the guts to handle a 30 cm long jungle python cuz it might bite them.

then its even funnyer when they do have the guts to grab him but make a fuss when he bites.

so id love to see em try with a rbbs or a tiger


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## Kersten (Feb 28, 2009)

dpeica said:


> I want a flock of raging do-gooders to start going wild now..don't let me down.


Feeling brave and strong dpeica? Those do-gooders can cause a burning sensation.


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## Hooglabah (Feb 28, 2009)

is that an eastern brown??? (keep in mind still really new to elapids)


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## elapid66 (Feb 28, 2009)

nice i luv it :lol:


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## redbellybite (Feb 28, 2009)

Dpeica..........can always count on you for a good laugh ..........wonder what statistic greebo would give you now ........... beautiful snake by the way ...


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## ivonavich (Feb 28, 2009)

Reading this thread is good value... There are valid points for both sides of this argument...

In my opinion tho free handling elapids is not anything like free handling pythons... add the capability to kill and you are talking massive risk factors.... And the all the talk of "trusting" your animals is foolish. They are animals after all! I agree that you may be able to trust your own instinct when it comes reading your animal but you can't possibly trust the animal itself..... 

I cannot help to feel concern at the thought that through acts of carelessness or accident the laws and legislation regarding this awesome passion we all share could be changed to make it harder for us to enjoy.... I mean I would really like to work towards getting my vens license and, quite honestly, realise I have a way to go but it would really suck if the existing goalposts where moved to make it even harder on account of bad bite stories concerning existing keepers....


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## Vincent (Feb 28, 2009)

ivonavich;1393652}
In my opinion tho free handling elapids is not anything like free handling pythons... add the capability to kill and you are talking massive risk factors.... And the all the talk of "trusting" your animals is foolish. They are animals after all! I agree that you may be able to trust your own instinct when it comes reading your animal but you can't possibly trust the animal itself.....
I cannot help to feel concern at the thought that through acts of carelessness or accident the laws and legislation regarding this awesome passion we all share could be changed to make it harder for us to enjoy.... I mean I would really like to work towards getting my vens license and said:


> Plenty of bites occur at wildlife parks and venom extraction facilities. Despite all the safety precautions, envenomations still occur at these places. Private keepers are not the huge threat to our "right" to keep these animals as some people make out.
> 
> As said previousley, most passionate venomous snake keepers are responsible people. Let's be honest, no one wants to spend a couple of weeks in intensive care, and thats a "best case scenario".
> 
> ...


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## ivonavich (Feb 28, 2009)

A couple more opinions... 

Always considered the fact that keeping native wildlife is a privilege not a right... If it was our right we wouldn't need permits or licenses...

Venom extraction facilities and wildlife parks are really not the same kettle of fish as private collectors ... they can be put under tighter scrutiny and be regulated easier than the average private collector... 

I also believe "most" keepers are responsible - not all!


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## Vincent (Mar 1, 2009)

ivonavich said:


> A couple more opinions...
> 
> Always considered the fact that keeping native wildlife is a privilege not a right... If it was our right we wouldn't need permits or licenses...
> 
> ...





First off, if the "authorities" banned dangerous snakes, that would only result in most venomous keepers handing in their lisences. It wouldnt influence any serious elapid keepers whatsoever. 

Like any "passion', enthusiasts are hard to deter. Most elapid keepers are'nt in it for the money, unlike many python keepers. From my experience, elapid keepers are a hardcore mob, that relish keeping animals that are shunned from the majority.


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## jasonryles810 (Mar 1, 2009)

i guess what it comes down to if you cant swim then dont get in the water, i dont pretend to be an authority on the topic but it makes me shake my head at both sides of the fence when people with limted experience proclaim their manliness by freehandling a higher end elapid with know concept of the way that particular snake species and specimen will react or behave. it isnt a trust issue, i have never trusted any snake, nor is it a species by species thing its more about being able to almost read a snake. have respect for those who know enough about these snakes that they can successfully handle these things with success and have enough self dignity that if u have no idea that u stick to pythons.


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## Vincent (Mar 1, 2009)

jasonryles810 said:


> i guess what it comes down to if you cant swim then dont get in the water, i dont pretend to be an authority on the topic but it makes me shake my head at both sides of the fence when people with limted experience proclaim their manliness by freehandling a higher end elapid with know concept of the way that particular snake species and specimen will react or behave. it isnt a trust issue, i have never trusted any snake, nor is it a species by species thing its more about being able to almost read a snake. have respect for those who know enough about these snakes that they can successfully handle these things with success and have enough self dignity that if u have no idea that u stick to pythons.





Like Marty said, if you cant swim, dont jump in the water. You wont see me walking into Mascot airport trying to fly a jumbo jet. I cant do it!! Or at least i'd try and learn to fly something easier before the big boys!!

So why do people try and keep Taipans?? Human nature, not the band, the species.


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## DanTheMan (Mar 1, 2009)

ShaneBlack said:


> First off, if the "authorities" banned dangerous snakes, that would only result in most venomous keepers handing in their lisences. It wouldnt influence any serious elapid keepers whatsoever.
> 
> Like any "passion', enthusiasts are hard to deter. Most elapid keepers are'nt in it for the money, unlike many python keepers. From my experience, elapid keepers are a hardcore mob, that relish keeping animals that are shunned from the majority.



I agree
This could also increase the amount of poaching

I certainly wouldn't let the law stop me keeping something I live for.


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## Vincent (Mar 1, 2009)

I dont care what "python" people think about me or my mates. But, I'm all for the "industry", as much bull as that carrys, but I still remember when this hobby meant who you respected as a handler and keeper. Other than that, who cares????????????? Not me.


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## dpeica (Mar 1, 2009)

Heard you have a few good shots of some nice elapids being handled...why don't you post them up?..for educational purposes of course.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Mar 1, 2009)

oh these free handling threads always seem to pop up

just like the hybrid threads,always good for a few laughs


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## ODI11 (Mar 1, 2009)

This is the bloke from Reptiles downunder at childers I was amazed how he handled these blokes MULGA (1ST PIC) INLAND TAIPAN(2ND) EASTERN BROWN (3RD)


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## Hooglabah (Mar 1, 2009)

im not in any way condeming or condoning the practrise of "free handling" i still dont know enough about it and any potential risks. 

there seems to be alot of opinions from people who dont even own elapids on the against side of the specturm and all them on the pro side seem to be elapid keepers. 

if you dont own and have never owed elapids please dont post on the thread as quite frankly like myself you have little to no idea what you are on about. sorry to be so straight forward but its the only thing that seems to work. im trying to learn more about husbandry techniques for elapids and am not really all that interested in a debate 

now back to the original reason behind the thread. 
i was simply trying to get insight into the reasons behind it. why do people do it what are the pros and cons of the risk ect ect.


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## Vincent (Mar 1, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> im not in any way condeming or condoning the practrise of "free handling" i still dont know enough about it and any potential risks.
> 
> there seems to be alot of opinions from people who dont even own elapids on the against side of the specturm and all them on the pro side seem to be elapid keepers.
> 
> if you dont own and have never owed elapids please dont post on the thread as quite frankly like myself you have little to no idea what you are on about.




Some good points there Hooglabah. At the moment i'm suffering from NMS (next morning syndrome)......similiar to DPS, but without the broken ribs.


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## redbellybite (Mar 1, 2009)

why are you branding all elapids ? you need to be more specific with what your focusing on ...your obviously talking about the dangerously venomous elapids ...as there are many elapids that can be handled with little or no threat at all .


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## eipper (Mar 1, 2009)

HI all,

Its always funny to see non elapid keepers (or keepers of them for under a few years) to have a go at people who have been free handling before these same people started keeping.

As a 14 yr old I was free handling Taipans, Browns, Tigers, Adders, Collett's, Spotted Blacks, Red Bellies, Mulgas, Copperheads etc....I have never been bitten free handling a venomous snake.

If you can read the snake (its behavior at the time of going to handle) then it can be done with minimal risk, if you misjudge it you may get the pointy end and need to go to the hospital which may then send you to the morgue..its YOUR CHOICE.

Some snakes benefit and handle much better without the use of tools....others... tools or hands don't worry them. 

The art of handling snakes in particular venomous species seems to be lost on the "internet age" herpers in Australia....It seems that your post count indicates your knowledge.

A course on handling venomous snakes cannot teach you all the required skills needed to be a competent snake handler (this includes every course presently run in Australia that I have seen) this is because they cannot teach someone EXPERIENCE in a 2 day course. While some are good to give an idea, all they give is a starting point. Unfortunately this gives them over confidence and will result in bites.

Cheers,
Scott

Cheers,
Scott Eipper


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## Hooglabah (Mar 1, 2009)

i totally agree with the post count eipper as i know for a fact that you and several other keepers who have posted on this thread alone are far more expirianced than i yet i have double the posts (mostly questions funnily enough) 

and i also agree with the handling courses i figure them to be similar to getting your l's when driveing its a start but by no means should you go driveing solo. and i believe the same to hold true to elapids just cuz your have done 1 or 2 day long courses does not make you competant enough to keep snakes such as browns or taipans or even somthing as placid as a rbbs or a death adder. i want to do the courses and then go out with expiranced elapid keepers and do some elapid herping and get them to also help me out with husbandry well befor i go jumping head first into what i consider the "deep end" of the herp world with out first learning to swim. only once i have learned to "swim" will i actually obtain some elapids and try and perfect my technique with some level of prior knowledge and there for reduce my risk of being bitten


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## dpeica (Mar 1, 2009)

Gonna have to start buying you a case every week Shane. Better than watching tv.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 1, 2009)

nice photo dpeica, anymore gonna be posted?


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## dpeica (Mar 1, 2009)

sure..
prepare yourself..


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## dpeica (Mar 1, 2009)




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## JasonL (Mar 1, 2009)

Crazy Dave, just CRAZY!!! buying Shane a carton I mean...


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 1, 2009)

swamp snakes :lol:


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## Hooglabah (Mar 1, 2009)

anybody got any other pics its nice to see people who dont actually care what others think of them for once


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## elapid66 (Mar 1, 2009)

more people die on there bmx bike than free handling elapids stupid pratice maybe if ya happy to risk a bit its all good


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## -Peter (Mar 1, 2009)

rockman said:


> Where's Johnno , i think he is the "risk minimisation " elapid handler ? .
> 
> Ask him , will all of his experience , he off anyone here , will be able to help you .
> 
> Cheers Mate


 
I thought this was a serious post for a momnet there.:lol:


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## Hooglabah (Mar 1, 2009)

lol yeah i heard that stroy. änybody who gets bit by an elapid shouldnt be allowed keep em" one week later "oh poo i just got bit"


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## waruikazi (Mar 1, 2009)

Hoog's if you really like elapids i really think you should stop asking for advice over the internet. 

Try and find someone who has a decent collection and decent experience and get some experience. That is what i have done. That way you can make ur own mind up on topics like this one.


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## elapid66 (Mar 1, 2009)

waruikazi said:


> Hoog's if you really like elapids i really think you should stop asking for advice over the internet.
> 
> Try and find someone who has a decent collection and decent experience and get some experience. That is what i have done. That way you can make ur own mind up on topics like this one.


saying that some people dont know any body who keeps them let alone some one willing to help


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 1, 2009)

elapids are the best snakes in my opinon, not that I have really kept them, just from all the times I have seen them out herping, look so much cooler then pythons. pythons arnt that good to keep, everyone has them, but i do like antaresia and womas. when you say free handling elapids, do you mean the mildy venomous or the dangerous ones. thanks.


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## redbellybite (Mar 2, 2009)

Dpeica, I bet you were nearly choking on your furry bit ,whilst you were holding them hotties.....


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## m.punja (Mar 2, 2009)

rbbs, a preserved dead specimen






black and gold jungle python


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## m.punja (Mar 2, 2009)

stupid big pics, sorry everyone


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 2, 2009)

nice jungle python :lol: looks better then all the other ones I have seen, bet it doesnt bite as much either :lol:


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## [email protected] (Mar 2, 2009)

:lol:Nice jungle almost looks like a woma:lol:


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 2, 2009)

yer punja your full of it ,that is a woma :lol:


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## [email protected] (Mar 2, 2009)

m.punja said:


> rbbs, a preserved dead specimen
> 
> 
> 
> ...



just aswell thats not a deadly tiger snake hey,,,,,


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## troy89 (Mar 3, 2009)

this might stir the pot but this pic was taken a couple of years ago of my ex girlfriend (she is now my wife) with one of their tigers. I can tell you It wasn't her old mans shotgun I was looking out for on visits.


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## junglepython2 (Mar 3, 2009)

m.punja said:


> rbbs, a preserved dead specimen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
What about them legless lizards of yours Punj, not game to handle them??


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## arbok (Mar 3, 2009)

ryanharvey1993 said:


> bet it doesnt bite as much either :lol:


 
yeah cause it only has to bite you once :lol:


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## baxtor (Mar 3, 2009)

arbok said:


> yeah cause it only has to bite you once :lol:


 

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but that is not correct, I think the danger that comes from being bitten is grossly overstated. Sure the odd person has a bad reaction but generally with medical help available a night in hospital is about all that will come of it.
I think we try to make it some sort of "badge of honour" to hype up the perceived danger.


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## DanTheMan (Mar 3, 2009)

Here's some seriously life threatening elapid free handling for you!


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## DanTheMan (Mar 4, 2009)

1 more, a mates snake we took out back for some snaps. Cant remember what it is... Said it was harmless though.


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## redbellybite (Mar 4, 2009)

nice keelback Dan ..... ...well as you can see ,elapids can be free handled,not something that everyone should do ,but hey there are people out there that jump on crocs and let bloody 8 legged monsters crawl over their face .Each to their own ...


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## m.punja (Mar 4, 2009)

nah JP the legless lizards are gone now.


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 4, 2009)

dan thats not a snake, its a blue tongued skink.


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## DanTheMan (Mar 4, 2009)

Oh that's right right Ryan!
I forgot, sorry people, or is blue tongue an elapid? Im not sure, cant really remember....


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## dailyskin (Mar 4, 2009)

I had three RBBs draped on me once, they were 'de-venomed' or something (I didn't know how cruel that was at the time).

They all wove themselves through my hair, flicked their tongues at my nose etc...

They were so, so placid and lovely, and they felt amazing! Much heavier, and 'harder' than pythons... Their scales also felt different.

But I wouldn't repeat that with three normal RBBs!


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## m.punja (Mar 4, 2009)

troy89 said:


> this might stir the pot but this pic was taken a couple of years ago of my ex girlfriend (she is now my wife) with one of their tigers. I can tell you It wasn't her old mans shotgun I was looking out for on visits.



Nice tiger


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## baxtor (Mar 4, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> I had three RBBs draped on me once, they were 'de-venomed' or something (I didn't know how cruel that was at the time).
> 
> They all wove themselves through my hair, flicked their tongues at my nose etc...
> 
> ...


 
Your experience with venomoids begs the question, why wouldn't you repeat that with "normal" RBBs. The procedure removes the venom glands depriving them of venom but it does not remove the ability to bite. The fact they were so placid and made no attempd to bite has nothing to do with them being venomoids.
That does not change the fact however that it is a barbaric practice.


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## Lplater (Mar 4, 2009)

dailyskin said:


> I had three RBBs draped on me once, they were 'de-venomed' or something (I didn't know how cruel that was at the time).
> 
> They all wove themselves through my hair, flicked their tongues at my nose etc...
> 
> ...


 
fair go guys as she said she didnt know at the time, but fair dinkum dailyskin why wouldnt you do it now? is age catching you


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## baxtor (Mar 4, 2009)

Lplater said:


> fair go guys as she said she didnt know at the time, but fair dinkum dailyskin why wouldnt you do it now? is age catching you


 
I wasn't having a go at anybody, just making the point that the procedure mentioned is not the reason some snakes are quiet and not inclined to bite.


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## Kersten (Mar 4, 2009)

baxtor said:


> Your experience with venomoids begs the question, why wouldn't you repeat that with "normal" RBBs. The procedure removes the venom glands depriving them of venom but it does not remove the ability to bite. The fact they were so placid and made no attempd to bite has nothing to do with them being venomoids.
> That does not change the fact however that it is a barbaric practice.


I don't know that the placid nature of those oft-handled RBBS is really a reason to risk a bite from an intact RBBS.There's a Guttatus here that I've never seen strike at anyone and I still wouldn't touch him with a barge pole. Not because I think he's likely to bite (in fact I'm damned sure he wouldn't) but because at heart, he's an animal and still has the capability to bite, whether or not he has the "desire", and to me the microscopic risk involved in picking him up is enough of one to make me not want to take it. I'd imagine that Dailyskin's reason would be much the same. Whether a RBBS - or any elapid for that matter - is a pussy cat isn't the issue, it's the capability to envenomate that's the stalling point. Obviously not everyone will agree.


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## eipper (Mar 5, 2009)

back when is was about 18

red belly, mulga, collett's and tiger


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## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2009)

do you still have the red belly , would be 11 - 12 years old now? would like to see some pics of it if you still have it. 

cheers steve


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## redbellybite (Mar 5, 2009)

eipper said:


> back when is was about 18
> 
> red belly, mulga, collett's and tiger


 what a nice little "cocktail" you got there :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## dailyskin (Mar 5, 2009)

baxtor said:


> Your experience with venomoids begs the question, why wouldn't you repeat that with "normal" RBBs. The procedure removes the venom glands depriving them of venom but it does not remove the ability to bite. The fact they were so placid and made no attempd to bite has nothing to do with them being venomoids.
> That does not change the fact however that it is a barbaric practice.


 
Oh don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY see your point, and my hypocracy!

Why wouldn't I do it with 'unaltered' RBBs?

Because, I was fully prepared for one of those three to bite me. If one was startled, or something like that. And it definately COULD have happened, even though they were gorgeous and placid.

That is just not a risk I would take with a highly venomous snake. Not because I'm 'afraid' or anything, but because I think it's an unnecessary risk (e.g. why do I need to?), and because a bite would impact more people than just myself. Particularly three bites at once :lol:

E.g. I drive a car, and know this is a risk, however I would not speed on a windy road in the rain. There is risks, and there is risks!

They truly were beautiful, beautiful animals though, the blackness was so glossy and dark.


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## dailyskin (Mar 5, 2009)

Kersten said:


> I don't know that the placid nature of those oft-handled RBBS is really a reason to risk a bite from an intact RBBS..


 
Yes, I should point out, these three were clearly handled REALLY regularly! They were totally chilled and used to it!


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## daniel1234 (Mar 5, 2009)

Been collecting quotes:



Hooglabah said:


> lol greebo
> 
> yeah im not going to be free handling any elapids the closest i'll ever come is a "venomoid" as i said i wanna do all courses first.


 
Before I read everyone elses I was thinking that I would never get close to a venomoid becaouse of what it is, a barbaric practice even if done "properly" by a vet. 




jcbrisbane said:


> I would pay money to watch some one free handle a brown or a tiapan like you would a python.


 
Forget money, just go to utube, I think it is Snakehandler" that have a vid on there of a guy with lots of "pet" elapids.



eipper said:


> HI all,
> 
> Its always funny to see non elapid keepers (or keepers of them for under a few years) to have a go at people who have been free handling before these same people started keeping.
> 
> ...


 
That makes alot of sense.



waruikazi said:


> Hoog's if you really like elapids i really think you should stop asking for advice over the internet.
> 
> Try and find someone who has a decent collection and decent experience and get some experience. That is what i have done. That way you can make ur own mind up on topics like this one.


 
As does this which is what I am trying to do, but as said, it can be difficult.

Interesting thread.
Goodnight (night shift, better sleep now)


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## eipper (Mar 5, 2009)

Cocktail..nar with the exception of the Mulga....all you would need in Tiger A/V

As for ages in snakes...I have a collett here that is 19 years old, a Mulga and Spotted Black that are 18, the Tiger pictured in that photo i got as an adult (so 2 years old in 1995) that is about 16-17 years old now.....If you don't feed them stupidly they live for almost as long as some pythons.

The red belly is still going at a mates place (She dropped last year too)

Cheers,
Scott


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## m.punja (Mar 5, 2009)

nice pic scott


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## Hooglabah (Mar 5, 2009)

wow this thread is still going whats it been a week???


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## JasonL (Mar 5, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> wow this thread is still going whats it been a week???



It interesting how times change, a couple of years ago this would of been a hot topic..


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## Bax155 (Mar 5, 2009)

Great thread keep the pics coming!! Id never try but I respect all that do...


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## -Peter (Mar 6, 2009)

Bax155 said:


> Great thread keep the pics coming!! Id never try but I respect all that do...



Holding a snake whatever it is gets no respect from me. You have to do a bit more than that to earn respect in my books.


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## Sturdy (Mar 6, 2009)




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## Hooglabah (Mar 6, 2009)

Bax155 said:


> Great thread keep the pics coming!! Id never try but I respect all that do...


 

im totally indifferant 

i can understand where some people are comeing from saying that irrisponsible keepers can be a risk the hobby however what i think is more likely is: 

nothing will happen if 100 keepers get bitten over a 1,2 ,3 ect year period . however if one person gets bitten who is not a keeper while sombody is free handling thats when the poo will hit the fan.

so i guess in suming up if you get tagged by your own elapid well boo hoo to you just dont free handle while others are around or its boo hoo for everybody.


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## elapid66 (Mar 6, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> im totally indifferant
> 
> i can understand where some people are comeing from saying that irrisponsible keepers can be a risk the hobby however what i think is more likely is:
> 
> ...


if you say so


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## Hooglabah (Mar 8, 2009)

its just a thought.


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## redbellybite (Mar 8, 2009)

no one wants to get tagged by any elapids ,even the ones that do free handle ..but if you play with fire long enough ,your chances of getting burnt increase...


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## womapyth (Mar 8, 2009)

*Elapid handling*

On this website there is a picture of John Cann with several black snakes 
www.ecouniverse.com/celebs.html


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## dpeica (Mar 8, 2009)

Noticed that too Peter. Shame your post got deleted..most people saw it anyway.


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## elapid66 (Mar 8, 2009)

dpeica said:


> Noticed that too Peter. Shame your post got deleted..most people saw it anyway.


missed it


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 8, 2009)

what did the post say


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## waruikazi (Mar 8, 2009)

It was asking if the elapid cocktail picture on the previous page were voids. The question arose because of the site the pic is hosted on.


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## elapid66 (Mar 8, 2009)

im thinkin yes mates


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## ryanharvey1993 (Mar 8, 2009)

oh that pic


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## m.punja (Mar 8, 2009)

does hoser have void mulgas? I don't think he does.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 8, 2009)

no he doesnt


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## elapid66 (Mar 8, 2009)

did he ever


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Mar 8, 2009)

None of the snakes in Scotts photo are venomoids.
The pic itself predates the venomoids of hosers
Hosers 1st snakes he chopped was in 2003


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## cracksinthepitch (Mar 8, 2009)

So Baz any shots of some lovely Copperheads, they are my fav.....


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## moosenoose (Mar 8, 2009)

-Peter said:


> Holding a snake whatever it is gets no respect from me. You have to do a bit more than that to earn respect in my books.



I had an inland taipan get loose up the arm of a loose-fitting fluoro skivvy I had back in the 80's...does that count?  (jokes)


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## -Peter (Mar 8, 2009)

I asked to have the post removed as I wasn't meaning to have a go at Scott. I realised after it was to late to edit it.

That definitely rates high moosey.


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## cris (Mar 8, 2009)

Hooglabah said:


> im totally indifferant
> 
> i can understand where some people are comeing from saying that irrisponsible keepers can be a risk the hobby however what i think is more likely is:
> 
> ...



I would guarantee the poo would hit the fan if a person got a serious bite from another persons dangerous snake, but all it really takes is some media hype to get it going, after that all logic is gone and it becomes a politcal issue. Firearm laws are a prime example, the cops sell some nutcase an assault rifle and he shoots some randoms for no reason and then heaps of guns get banned and destroyed at massive cost to the country. If keepers think the government would hesitate to ban keeping private keeping of dangerous reptiles for political gain and virtually no finacial loss they are simply deluded. If they tell heaps of ppl armed with assault rifles they cant have them i cant see a much smaller number of snake keepers holding any weight at all in a political scenario.

From my understanding the most likely cause of a bite when freehandling is a random feeding responce and i cant see how that possiblity can be elimitanted, espeicallly in uncontrolled environments. To those with experience, what are your thoughts on the risk of feeding bites? and are they the main danger when freehandling?


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## baxtor (Mar 8, 2009)

cris said:


> I would guarantee the poo would hit the fan if a person got a serious bite from another persons dangerous snake, but all it really takes is some media hype to get it going, after that all logic is gone and it becomes a politcal issue. Firearm laws are a prime example, the cops sell some nutcase an assault rifle and he shoots some randoms for no reason and then heaps of guns get banned and destroyed at massive cost to the country. If keepers think the government would hesitate to ban keeping private keeping of dangerous reptiles for political gain and virtually no finacial loss they are simply deluded. If they tell heaps of ppl armed with assault rifles they cant have them i cant see a much smaller number of snake keepers holding any weight at all in a political scenario.
> 
> From my understanding the most likely cause of a bite when freehandling is a random feeding responce and i cant see how that possiblity can be elimitanted, espeicallly in uncontrolled environments. To those with experience, what are your thoughts on the risk of feeding bites? and are they the main danger when freehandling?


 
Firearm laws are a prime example of firearm related issues, they have absolutely nothing in common with the keeping of dangerous NATIVE snakes.


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## scam7278 (Mar 8, 2009)

i think all you ven keepers are freaks.... totally NUTS  (maybe cause im just jealous)


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## eipper (Mar 9, 2009)

TO CLEAR UP A FEW THINGS.

I have free handled alot of elapids, anyone seeing me in the pit with Fred Rossignoil would be able to vouch for that. I reckon that Schlanger and Ads would be able to remember that

I used that pic off that site as I don't have to many recent ones like that especially online. However there are one of me doing that same with Inland Taipans, Coastal Taipans, Tigers, East and West Browns all at the same time.

I have never handled voids during a demo and will not in the future, I don't keep them and don't want them.

Cheers,
Scott Eipper


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## Ramsayi (Mar 9, 2009)

eipper said:


> TO CLEAR UP ANY BULL ******,
> 
> I have free handled alot of elapids, anyone seeing me in the pit with Fred Rossignoil would be able to vouch for that. I reckon that Schlanger and Ads would be able to remember that
> 
> ...



What possible reason could you have to handle multiple animals at the same time, let alone diff species Scott?

Giddy up


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## Hooglabah (Mar 9, 2009)

elapid66 said:


> did he ever


 
nope rbbs eastern browns tigers i think thats it correct me if im wrong.


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## eipper (Mar 9, 2009)

There was no reason except to show that could be done without being bitten and that people were free handling numbers of different elapids at once before venomoids (the reason for posting the pic now).

Also I would be kidding myself that I did not find it to be an adreneline rush at the time. The pic shown was taken at my parents place in Melbourne about 10 years ago.

I felt I was a bit more snake proof so to speak in those days.

Cheers,
Scott


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## Bax155 (Mar 9, 2009)

Some people have questioned why I said I respect the people that free handle vens and the reason I do is it clearly takes a great deal of skill and knowledge in the vens they are handling, I cant see why people are so against the practise, for gods sake we live in a Australia guys, we have most of the top 10 deadliest snakes in the world so of course your going to have people that handle these vens and good on em if thats what they wanna do well so be it, I think they know the risks they are taking more then anyone else is and i cant see it giving the herp keeping community a bad rap, gee gun owners still have guns and millions of people have been killed at the hands of these, how many people have died from a ven owner irrasponsibly showing off his free handling skills?? To my knowledge Ive never seen a case of this on the news, yet everyday we here about someone being shot in the world, so dont think these guys free handling are an anyway putting our hobby in jeopardy there just doing something that they love to do!!

Cheers,
Baxter


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## wranga (Mar 9, 2009)

i dont keep vens, and i really dont see why this showboating needs to be shown. this is one of the reasons why snakes have their bad name. you showboaters show young kids that they can pick hots up without being bitten. so out they go herping and bang their tagged, and another snake hyp cause another snake attacks a young kid walking through the bush. show some responsibility


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## baxtor (Mar 9, 2009)

wranga said:


> i dont keep vens, and i really dont see why this showboating needs to be shown. this is one of the reasons why snakes have their bad name. you showboaters show young kids that they can pick hots up without being bitten. so out they go herping and bang their tagged, and another snake hyp cause another snake attacks a young kid walking through the bush. show some responsibility


 
Do you have some evidence to back what you are saying? I must be living in a cave 'cause I missed all the fuss and hype you're talking about.
I do not know why anybody would worry about the subject in the first place. If you don't want to freehandle then don't do it but it's none of your business if somebody else does, simple as that.


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## Bax155 (Mar 9, 2009)

wranga said:


> i dont keep vens, and i really dont see why this showboating needs to be shown. this is one of the reasons why snakes have their bad name. you showboaters show young kids that they can pick hots up without being bitten. so out they go herping and bang their tagged, and another snake hyp cause another snake attacks a young kid walking through the bush. show some responsibility


Why are we even letting kids pic up wild fauna its illegal, who cares if its a ven or harmless python or lizard, keep your distance and obserb and photograph, why would you even try and teach people the difference between a ven and something harmless we should be teaching to obserb not touch, and as for these guys so called showboating these vens are out of their personal collection there not just picking them up in the wild so how these stupid kids can think they can pick up a wild ven is just garbage and over exagerated hype and whos letting these kids herp unsupervised anyway??!! What ever happened to people taking responsibilty for there own actions? These guys free handling vens are not role models, they are keepers just like the rest of us with the difference being they love the rush of free handling vens, why knock something you clearly have no experience in??


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## DanTheMan (Mar 9, 2009)

Too many mamby pamby do gooders in this world....


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## Hooglabah (Mar 9, 2009)

i said earler in my post unless you have a sensible question dont post unless you actually keep elapids and or have extensive knoledge of them and this practice.
im not after opinions ive got a reason,now im enjoying pics of nice snakes dont ruin it keep your opinions to yourself thats not what the thread is about.

more pics im loveing it


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## -Peter (Mar 9, 2009)

I agree with wranga. Showboaters, love it.


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## eipper (Mar 9, 2009)

Hey Wranga,

So I suppose with all your experience, you could demostrate a method of handling venomous snakes that is perfectly safe....

As a mate of mine used to say "I can show you how to LOOK at a snake safely, This does not mean picking it up or whacking it with a stick"

Quite simply every method of handling elapids has apparent risks, be it tailing, hooking, pinning, hooping, put them into tubes, tonging, free handling or any number of those combined.

As for Herping, I have used all them above methods in the field (except for tongs) with various scientific research permits and have used the best method to suit at time.

As for Show Boating.....well every decent snake demo is part show, part education, if you keep the audience entertained you can get alot of good information to them that they require.

Cheers,
Scott Eipper


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## redbellybite (Mar 9, 2009)

wranga said:


> i dont keep vens, and i really dont see why this showboating needs to be shown. this is one of the reasons why snakes have their bad name. you showboaters show young kids that they can pick hots up without being bitten. so out they go herping and bang their tagged, and another snake hyp cause another snake attacks a young kid walking through the bush. show some responsibility


 I find the complete opposite,especially on here if you suggest to take caution and dont touch and yarda yarda.. your considered to be all high n mighty and accusing them of having no commonsense and then in Scotts case he cops the same ... cant win situation ...fact is it can and has been done ,plenty of times ,but sometimes you pay the price that much is true ..BUT most recorded snake bites in AUSTRALIA arent due to as you said "showboating"BUT from accidental encounters AND hero's with a shovel .......


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## wranga (Mar 9, 2009)

thats all good to all that like these experienced keepers showing that they can handle their hots without copping a hit. and those that think their kids are well superviced, i hope your right and they are. as are their friends that seen this site at your place and try and pick up one of these vens on their way home from your place.remember kids are bullet proof, think their 10ft tall, but lack the experience to do as they see that looks easy on this site


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## JasonL (Mar 9, 2009)

You only have to turn on the TV to see someone free handling vens..though free handling vens is so 1990's, I saw some bloke on the telly free swimming with White Pointers and Tiger Sharks...so I'm off to Sydney Harbour to give it a go, looks like fun.


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## wranga (Mar 9, 2009)

eipper said:


> Hey Wranga,
> 
> So I suppose with all your experience, you could demostrate a method of handling venomous snakes that is perfectly safe....
> 
> ...


 where did i say i did or could handle vens?? nor did i claim to be experienced with them. by the way i must of missed where in this thread it was shown how to safetly tail, hook, pin, or hoop. all as i said i think its not being a responsible experienced keeper showing vens being freehanded to young 10ft high bullet proof kids. i fail to see how you can claim that this thread is educating people on the safe handling. if this was a proper and full training course on the safe handling of venomous snakes you may then have a point. we cant swear or talk about porn in threads on this site because minors use this site. all as i askis that experienced keepers think before posting these pictures before they give some young person the wrong idea injuring theing and damaging this hobby.


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## Hooglabah (Mar 9, 2009)

if your actually read the thread wranga initally i was looking for reasons why people free handle snakes wich i got several good answers to after i had infored all those like yourself im not interested in hearing from people who dont know a thing about elapid husbandry to be quite frank as far as the topic goes you are clueless you dont have elapids and you dont have any expiraince with such so please dont post.

MORE PICCIES IGNOR THE CRITISIERS


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## moosenoose (Mar 9, 2009)

I admire the fact that it can be done... to "some" snakes... (and I've done the odd spot of it myself). It's not for me anymore, but boy do I love venomous snakes! Beautiful, spectacular, mesmerizing!! One of gods greatest creations! :twisted:


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## Slateman (Mar 9, 2009)

don't start fights please.
Different people do have different opinions. That is no reason to push your own view strongly in public forum. 
There is better way to make friends than argue.


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