# Feeding snakes live food?



## xycom (Jun 21, 2007)

I was told the other day that it is illegal to feed snakes live rats and mice. Is this true?
What are the cruelty laws regarding live animals as food?
I've always used frozen food and never really considered this sort of thing.

Per


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## bluetongue beno (Jun 21, 2007)

where abouts did they say this?


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## Sammccarthy (Jun 21, 2007)

yes that is true as you are in vic,
it is not worth it as the rat can do alot of damage to the snake and it is just no right.

sam.


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## Hickson (Jun 21, 2007)

The different State wildlife protection laws refer to unnecessary cruelty to any animal. Feeding a live rodent to a snake that will happily take dead prey (either freshly-killed or frozen/thawed) is considered unnecessarily cruel. If the snake refuses to take dead food, then that's another story. In fact, one State's legislation (I think Queensland's) actually makes provision for animals that don't feed readily on dead food.



Hix


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## Aussie Python Lover (Jun 21, 2007)

Well I just spoke to a NT Police officer that says that here in the nt we can feed live... But I am looking into it further as to I would like to know if we can or not. We also have a pet shop that sells live rats for snake's so I guess we can here as we are a territory not a state we have different rules and regulations. But I will be looking into it more.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

well you'd think if its illegal to feed live up here that the pet shops wouldn't be able to breed and sell live mainly for snake food, wouldn't you agree I seriously don't see anything wrong with to the fact the rats that are frozen are bred just for snake food anyways and they still have to die to become frozen in the first place. And I only do it with one snake that totally refuses to eat anything that is not moving, so say what you will I don't care much for what you will say to me its not illegal here. 

cheers Jody


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## chloethepython (Jun 22, 2007)

it is illegal in wa.


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## IsK67 (Jun 22, 2007)

Pythons Rule said:


> well you'd think if its illegal to feed live up here that the pet shops wouldn't be able to breed and sell live mainly for snake food,
> 
> cheers Jody




How does that make sense??


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## mysnakesau (Jun 22, 2007)

In NSW Pet shops are not allowed to sell live animals intended for food except for insects and fish.


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## IsK67 (Jun 22, 2007)

mysnakesau said:


> In NSW Pet shops are not allowed to sell live animals intended for food except for insects and fish.



??

So all these pet shops that do are breaking the law??

Where is this written?


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

Why would u want to feed live and risk u're snake being hurt?


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## slim6y (Jun 22, 2007)

Apparently I would even be breaking the law for using 'live bait' while fishing. Or catching a guppie and feeding them to my barra... 

Go figure aye?

But it;s ok for me to catch a fish, take it home and kill it then eat it... So long it hasn't suffered in any way shape or form. 

Even cooking your yabbie or crayfish live is illegal (Cris is the expert on this one).

But to be honest, no one yet has shown me a court case and fine for anyone doing so.


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

This is why...Meet Chance..The Legend


http://redtailboa.net/forums/feedin...ve-welcome-live-pile.html?highlight=live+pile


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

its illegal, its cruel for the prey item and can even lead to the death of your snake


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## krusty (Jun 22, 2007)

what a load of B S.then they should not sell live crickets for food then.
if you want to feed live mice or rats to your snakes thats up to you (i dont think its worth the risk of your snake geting hurt) just dont tell any one on this site as there are to meny do gooders geting around and redy to jump on your back about it.....jmo.


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## hazzard (Jun 22, 2007)

krusty said:


> what a load of B S.then they should not sell live crickets for food then.
> if you want to feed live mice or rats to your snakes thats up to you (i dont think its worth the risk of your snake geting hurt) just dont tell any one on this site as there are to meny do gooders geting around and redy to jump on your back about it.....jmo.



No comparison, insects do not come under animal ethics legislations, mammals do!


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## SperO (Jun 22, 2007)

I wouldn't feed my snake live food. Especially mice bought from a petshop. They come with so many diseases from living in cooped up quarters with all their feces. I mean the life expectancy of a snake in the wild is way less then a captive one.

And it is not cruel for the prey, they are prey and that's how mother nature created them.


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

so you wouldnt class it as creul if you got savaged by a lion or a bear? just because its natural doesnt mean its not cruel.


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## WombleHerp (Jun 22, 2007)

a picture says a thousand words...


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## krusty (Jun 22, 2007)

hazzard said:


> No comparison, insects do not come under animal ethics legislations, mammals do!



mice and rats only come under that law when you want to feed a live one to your snake.


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

and also by humanely euthinizing the prey and freezing it kills any parasites


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## mrsshep77 (Jun 22, 2007)

herpsrule said:


> a picture says a thousand words...


 
OMG that's soooo horrible!! It's something that doesn't need to happen either! I feel the only reason people feed live meals is for their own perverted pleasure! I do understand some situations do call for drastic solutions but to do this as an everyday regime it's disgusting!

I hope that poor snake was put out of it's misery or did the rat actually kill it?

Mell


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

some people say they need to feed live because thats all the snake will eat but to me they just want to feed live, they dont even try to get them onto fresh killed or thawed


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## mrsshep77 (Jun 22, 2007)

hornet said:


> some people say they need to feed live because thats all the snake will eat but to me they just want to feed live, they dont even try to get them onto fresh killed or thawed


 
I totally agree hornet!! If you're having issues with your snake eating then you need to be prepared to get creative with it's meals! What's the difference between giving a fresh killed meal, wiggle it in it's face to a live meal? The only difference is the fresh killed can't kill your snake!!
Don't people realise the damage an adult rat could do to your snake??? That's why in the wild snakes have so many scars because it's a battle of life and death!
It's not worth the vet bills just because people think it's cool to watch!!!


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## gillsy (Jun 22, 2007)

SperO said:


> I wouldn't feed my snake live food. Especially mice bought from a petshop. They come with so many diseases from living in cooped up quarters with all their feces. I mean the life expectancy of a snake in the wild is way less then a captive one.
> 
> And it is not cruel for the prey, they are prey and that's how mother nature created them.


 

Actually thats not true, snakes in the wild as far as we know live longer.

I've also looked after a wild caught snake tha thad a huge rat bite, stripped half the skin from its back. Infected and very sick, if you want the vet bills go ahead.


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

i have heard someone say they left their adult coastal without food for 2 months to try and get it onto dead rats but it didnt work, i wonder why. If people can get WC adults onto dead food if you try you should be able to get a CB onto dead food


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

snakes will eat live, dead whatever..they have short term memory.. food is food..so feed F/T...that pic makes me sick


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

Cristina said:


> snakes will eat live, dead whatever..they have short term memory.. food is food..so feed F/T...that pic makes me sick


 

If u're snake isnt eating..its b/c its stressed..not b/c is dead prey


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

no, some snakes will only eat live but you can wean them onto dead, some people just dont want to try


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

Snakes don't "switch" to f/t...we do. Do you think a snake understands how a freezer works or even has the short term memory span to understand that he didn't kill the food himself just a few moments earlier?...or even care? It's food. They eat it. They eat food they have to kill, they eat food that's already dead that they either find by chance or steal from other snakes in the wild. The food they killed, by the time they eat it, they forgot how it died. Snakes have almost NO short term memory...which is why they don't want picked up. They are happy where they are and don't want bothered. Once up in your arms, they soon settle down and get happy there too...then don't want put back where they were happy before because they forgot that it was an OK place to be.




So anyway...it's as natural to feed them prekilled or f/t food as it is live. They don't care! Half of my snakes were caught as adults in the wild and within a week or 2 and more often than not, the very first try, they accept and eat f/t rats or mice...no "switching" involved.


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

plenty of snakesneed to be weaned onto dead rodents if they are only feeding on live in the first place


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jun 22, 2007)

Of course there will be times when you might need to feed live mouse, but to leave live food in the enclosure with the snake, or even take your eyes off them for a second is definitly asking for trouble.
The snake,chance, was lucky.
I had a pet rat escape from an enclosure and it got in with a blutongue(open top enclosure) and proceded to eat the bluey,starting at the tail..Basicly half the lizard was gone by the time i woke up to find it..I was about 11 or something at the time.


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## mrsshep77 (Jun 22, 2007)

Yes it's alot harder than just throwing a dead rat in their face to eat. Especially if it's used to it's natural stalk and prey routine!!
That's why we don't use tongs when feeding, at least that way we have control over the "dead" rat to make it look like it's alive and we can also make the snake come to the food rather than just putting it in their enclosure and it laying there looking dead! Give it some movement and the snake will think it's killing it when it grabs a hold of it! All of ours do!! They spend about 10 mins strangling the crap out of an already dead meal...


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## junglepython2 (Jun 22, 2007)

IsK67 said:


> ??
> 
> So all these pet shops that do are breaking the law??
> 
> Where is this written?


 
A petshop should be able to sell live feeders, it doesn't mean they will be fed live though, some keepers like to feed freshly killed. So I can't see how it would be breaking the law anyway as they aren't feeding live, it would be on the owner.


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

as long as u warm it up for all they know its alive..when they are strangling it they dont know its dead already


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

if only it were that easy


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## SperO (Jun 22, 2007)

gillsy said:


> Actually thats not true, snakes in the wild as far as we know live longer.
> 
> I've also looked after a wild caught snake tha thad a huge rat bite, stripped half the skin from its back. Infected and very sick, if you want the vet bills go ahead.




Curious where you get your info from? I mean in the wild snakes have to deal with thier natural predators as well as thier own prey attacking them, harsh weather conditions.

I did a bit of a google


http://www.jaxzoo.org/animals/biofacts/CornSnake.asp

says the corn snake has less life expectancy in the wild

And ok that's the only concrete evidence I can find at the moment. But seriously..who in thier right mind thinks that a snake living in perfect conditions with guaranteed food intake is going to die before a snake in the untamed wild not sure where it's next meal is going to come from? Not to mention nothing to protect it from all kinds of germs & viruses.


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## Cristina (Jun 22, 2007)

I have never had a problem and everyone I know has never had a problem..I know some ppl who have had snakes for 30 yrs ..wild caught.

Its usually b/c ppl give up..they will eventually eat..they can go a long time w/out food.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

IsK67 said:


> How does that make sense??



I'm just saying if it where illegal up here, they shouldn't be able to breed and sell just for nake food at the petshops, which its not illegal here to feed live. Do you understand now?

cheers Jody


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

hornet said:


> some people say they need to feed live because thats all the snake will eat but to me they just want to feed live, they dont even try to get them onto fresh killed or thawed



do you really think so do you, I am telling you now if I had my way they all would be eating thawed rats, its cheaper and esier and I don't have to sit and watch them untill the rat is dead.
If the rat goes to attack my snake I simply remove it before it gets in contact with him. he is the only one that is a very shy and very fussy snake to feed and I have tried to feed him thawed rats he just won't touch them so that is why I feed live when I can. Its very hard to find live affordable rats up here in the NT they cost $10 per large rat and he eats 2 so that $20 a fortnight when the pet shops have any it basicly costs that much all up for frozen for 3 snakes, so why would I only want to use it as an excuse to simply get off on watching it die????
I do it because I have too, I would rather my snake eat something then nothing at all, and die of starvation wouldn't you agree... Sometimes theres nothing else some people can do.

I do care about my snakes and rather them be healthy he's only been attact once since I've been feeding him and I quickly healed him with bedadine and got him checked at the vet so its not like I am not looking out for any signs of infection.

cheers Jody


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## Chris89 (Jun 22, 2007)

Like some people say, The snake doesn't really know or care if the food is alive or dead. With my stimson I move the mouse around and she follows it around strikes at it, hold it with her mouth and coils it for 5 - 10 minutes.. She even does the same if the mouse is just sitting there.


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## SperO (Jun 22, 2007)

my stimson only seems to eat if I waggle the mouse right in front of his nose..

never tried to feed him live.


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

so jody, what have you done to try and get it onto dead rats?


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## Chris89 (Jun 22, 2007)

I have never tried or never will feed live. I don't see the point in even attempting, when the snake will happily eat freshly killed or thawed out. Sure it might take a little patience and effort to get the snake onto dead food. But it's got to be better than having your snake turn out like the one in that picture.


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## Chris89 (Jun 22, 2007)

hornet said:


> so what have you done to try and get it onto dead rats?


 
Ziggy (Stimson) ate dead food from day 1. She's always had a strong feeding response


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

ok lets see I've had him almost 3 years right since then when I first got him he would eat dead but rats where so much easier to come by up here for fresh killed, then he just whent off them, he didn't want anything to do with them, I have tried wiggling it in his face, nothing no interest, I have tried fresh killed, nothing. I have tried not eating him for a few months then wiggle it in his face still nothing, I then thought he may be shy so I leave it there and just wont touch it thats monie down the drain. he just leaves it there till it goes off or the ants get to it before he does then he gets bit by ants, whats worse I wonder getting bit by a rat or eaten by millions of ants!
but as soon as I put a live prey in he takes it before it touches the ground the rat has no time to react. and that is adult size rats what else would you suguest me to do that I haven't tried already?


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

cool him and leave him 5-6months, When he went off his food you should have offered live, should have left him a few months, Even try force feeding fresh killed for a couple of months


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

hahaha I don't think so I am not looking forward to getting bitten by his big mouth lol he doesn't let go eather. he is busy at moment with breeding so I'll wait till he is finished doing his job.


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## dansfish4tea (Jun 22, 2007)

hornet said:


> so you wouldnt class it as creul if you got savaged by a lion or a bear? just because its natural doesnt mean its not cruel.


 

Its not cruel if you are close enough to a lion you would have to have the respect for the animal and know it could eat you if it wants 2


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## dansfish4tea (Jun 22, 2007)

Cristina said:


> as long as u warm it up for all they know its alive..when they are strangling it they dont know its dead already


 

dont snakes tighten up every time the prey takes a breath???

if its not used to live food wats goin to happen if it escapes wait for a dead mouldy deases infected rat


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

lol thats what I think too, I've seen and heard of too many captive bred snakes exscaping and months latter or so getting found dead or very skinny from no food. I would also rather my snakes know how to kill something if they need too. 3 of mine can kill a live rat if they need to but I worrie about my female BHP if she ever exscapes she would get killed by the prey, she just coils around them and lies on top and don't hurt it. thats why I don't feed her live and plus to add to that the rats where fuzzies.


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## Hickson (Jun 22, 2007)

Just to clear up some misconceptions:

All the individual state legislation define animals as being terrestrial vertebrates, or they list mammals, birds, reptiles. They all say a human is not considered in that definition, and most state that insects and fish are not either - which is why you can feed live insects and live fish to your lizards and snakes. Some legislation also makes reference to crustaceans in restaurants, and think one includes fish as an animal (but I can't remember which one). I'm surprised at how few people bother to look up the laws governing what they do.

And as someone has already pointed out - pet shops can breed rodents for sale as food, they can sell them as feeders, because the breeder may kill the rodent before feeding (if freshly killed is necessary).

And Cristina - no offence, but the wild caught snakes your friends have are not Australian species, and some individuals can be rather picky at what they eat.

Incidentally, Taronga Zoo used to have 4 rattlesnakes that absolutely refused to eat anything other than live chicks. And even then, they would take their time eating - the enclosure had to be covered so the public couldn't see.



Hix


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## Australis (Jun 22, 2007)

Pythons Rule said:


> lol thats what I think too, I've seen and heard of too many captive bred snakes exscaping and months latter or so getting found dead or very skinny from no food. I would also rather my snakes know how to kill something if they need too. 3 of mine can kill a live rat if they need to but I worrie about my female BHP if she ever exscapes she would get killed by the prey, she just coils around them and lies on top and don't hurt it. thats why I don't feed her live and plus to add to that the rats where fuzzies.



So you actually feed most of your stuff live? Incase it escaped :shock: Well thats a new one LOL!


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

i have heard of snakes escaping and being found up to a year later in perfect health, a healthy python will be able to go many months without food so the ones you have said that escaped and died, it probably was not from starvation, probably thirst or they were unhealthy in the first place


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

Australis said:


> So you actually feed most of your stuff live? Incase it escaped :shock: Well thats a new one LOL!



no I only feed one live to the fact he refuses to eat anything else, you didn't read the other posts I put up did you.


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## Australis (Jun 22, 2007)

Pythons Rule said:


> no I only feed one live to the fact he refuses to eat anything else, you didn't read the other posts I put up did you.




No, i read your other posts with great intrest...lol




Pythons Rule said:


> . 3 of mine can kill a live rat if they need to .


Perhaps i read this part wrong


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

how does she know they can kill a live rat if she doesnt feed live??


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

dansfish4tea said:


> dont snakes tighten up every time the prey takes a breath???
> 
> if its not used to live food wats goin to happen if it escapes wait for a dead mouldy deases infected rat



if you dont know already, most snakes will take a live prey animals if they are feeding on dead since they prefer live so if a snake escapes it will just start eating live


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## Australis (Jun 22, 2007)

hornet said:


> how does she know they can kill a live rat if she doesnt feed live??




Easy.
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 22, 2007)

cause I use to before I knew better ok and I only have been feeding one live cause it wont eat anything else and that is it ok.


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## dansfish4tea (Jun 22, 2007)

what if the snake has only been fed on dead rats since hatching,
isnt there a chance of the snake being very wary of moving pray
and being to shy to attack


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## hornet (Jun 22, 2007)

chances are if it gets the chance to take down a live rat or mouse it will, its instinct


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## mysnakesau (Jun 22, 2007)

IsK67 said:


> ??
> 
> So all these pet shops that do are breaking the law??
> 
> Where is this written?



As far as I've been told, yes. If you want a mouse or rat for your snake then ask for one, end of story, but if you tell the pet shop why you want it then by rights they should refuse.


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## mysnakesau (Jun 22, 2007)

dansfish4tea said:


> what if the snake has only been fed on dead rats since hatching,
> isnt there a chance of the snake being very wary of moving pray
> and being to shy to attack




Yes this can happen. We put a hopper mouse in with a hatchy that we were having trouble getting to take dead fuzzies but we left the mouse with him for a week before I realised the poor little snake was scared of the mouse and wouldn't go near him which then prolonged getting him eating properly. He's right now, though.


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## grimbeny (Jun 22, 2007)

mysnakesau said:


> Yes this can happen. We put a hopper mouse in with a hatchy that we were having trouble getting to take dead fuzzies but we left the mouse with him for a week before I realised the poor little snake was scared of the mouse and wouldn't go near him which then prolonged getting him eating properly. He's right now, though.



You shouldnt have done that, if u absolutly must feed live prey (Which i still dont think is really necesary) you should supervise at all times.


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## benji (Jun 22, 2007)

mysnakesau said:


> Yes this can happen. We put a hopper mouse in with a hatchy that we were having trouble getting to take dead fuzzies but we left the mouse with him for a week before I realised the poor little snake was scared of the mouse and wouldn't go near him which then prolonged getting him eating properly. He's right now, though.



Do you think it's safe to leave a live mouse in with a hatchie for a week?


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## mysnakesau (Jun 22, 2007)

Well, it actually wasn't me. It was a friend of ours who had bought a hatchy. We put a hopper in with one of our hatchies and he snatched it up straight away. I didn't know leaving even a baby mouse in with a snake could have such an impact. We live and learn by our mistakes.


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## Elite_Reptiles (Jun 23, 2007)

herpsrule said:


> a picture says a thousand words...


 

Can I just change the subject slightly here and ask what the hell happened to the snake you see in this pic???

Was it attacked by a rat, or was it the result of eating a rat with some sort of desease? If it was attacked by a rat, that has just blown me away as to how a small rodent can cause such damage to a lethal fast stricking and constricting python? :shock:


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## Cristina (Jun 23, 2007)

wwebb said:


> Can I just change the subject slightly here and ask what the hell happened to the snake you see in this pic???
> 
> Was it attacked by a rat, or was it the result of eating a rat with some sort of desease? If it was attacked by a rat, that has just blown me away as to how a small rodent can cause such damage to a lethal fast stricking and constricting python? :shock:


 
It was attacked by the rat..I have seen it so many of times and if it is possible to even imagine, worse than that..
the snake goes into some sort of shock and the rat rips all the scales off..bites huge gashes into is face

Read the Live Pile I posted..lots of pics...it happens far too often.an owner will leave the rat in over night only to find thier snake half multatied or dead the next morning..

Im very passionate about not feeding live..we cannot mimmick its natural enviorment, so when we agree to keep a snake captive it is our responsibility to care for it in the best way possible...


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 23, 2007)

Jagman said:


> Can I just change the subject slightly here and ask what the hell happened to the snake you see in this pic???
> 
> Was it attacked by a rat, or was it the result of eating a rat with some sort of desease? If it was attacked by a rat, that has just blown me away as to how a small rodent can cause such damage to a lethal fast stricking and constricting python? :shock:



yes so guys was that snake deliberatly left there to die? it seriously does not look like one rat could of caused that much damage, I reacon the snake was attact by numerouse amounts of rats if thats what would of happened to it. You've got to wonder don't you, where was this taken? and who took it? and too that fact if you sit there want watch it till the rat is dead then this would never of happened!
that is exsteme cruelty leaving the snake in with loads of rats I really reacon it was an exsperiment of someone sick fanticy. I think you should find out the real sorry first before telling everone thats it was caused by one single rat attack. I don't meen to accuse every american being cruel but you just have to check out You Tube to witness what I meen there is a lot of people in the states over there that do some really sick and cruel things to there animals and exspecially there snakes.

you've got to wonder, sensible people would never alow anything to go that far or even further than one singe bit from a rat.

jody


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 23, 2007)

so you have proof someone didn't sit there and watch it get torn to bits? 

sorry I just don't believe a single rat could do so much damage to a eat anything fast contricting snake unless there where more in the enclosure than just one.

jody


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## hornet (Jun 23, 2007)

that could have easly be done from one rat, if the snake really wasnt interested in eating the rat could have kept attacking, once its dead then the rat could have chewed the rest of it. The bad thing they did was feed live


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## hornet (Jun 23, 2007)

i take it you have never seen a captive snake with no intentions to eat then? They will not try and coil they will pay no attention what so ever to the food item.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 23, 2007)

yeah I do know my male has done it but I'm not one to leave him with it I watch and wait and if he doesn't want it I take the rat out and try a week latter I don't give the rat a chance.


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## grimbeny (Jun 23, 2007)

Their was a video on u tube a while back of a python that grabed the rat quickly by the back end. The rat turned arround and was chewing on its face for its life. Did seriouse damage to the snakes eye and the person taking the video didnt have time to do anything.


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## Cristina (Jun 23, 2007)

Pythons Rule said:


> yes so guys was that snake deliberatly left there to die? it seriously does not look like one rat could of caused that much damage, I reacon the snake was attact by numerouse amounts of rats if thats what would of happened to it. You've got to wonder don't you, where was this taken? and who took it? and too that fact if you sit there want watch it till the rat is dead then this would never of happened!
> that is exsteme cruelty leaving the snake in with loads of rats I really reacon it was an exsperiment of someone sick fanticy. I think you should find out the real sorry first before telling everone thats it was caused by one single rat attack. I don't meen to accuse every american being cruel but you just have to check out You Tube to witness what I meen there is a lot of people in the states over there that do some really sick and cruel things to there animals and exspecially there snakes.
> 
> you've got to wonder, sensible people would never alow anything to go that far or even further than one singe bit from a rat.
> ...


 

One rat is more than capable of doing that..have u seen the teeth on those things?

It has been done many times..That snake Chance in the Live Pile was riped apart by ONE rat..I know that for a FACT...

And all those Americans on U tube are idiots who want to brag and showboat a snake killing live pray..that doesnt represent us serious,professional herp keepers.
Im sure this happens all over the world..stupid ppl who want to look cool by owing a large constrictor and watch it kill something. Everyone on the forums I speak w/ here feed f/t.


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## Miss B (Jun 24, 2007)

There are morons who do stupid things in every country. No point labelling Americans as sickos who treat their animals poorly, as that is an unfair generalisation. There are plenty of Aussies who do sick things too... like the kids who set a kitten on fire, or the guy who cut his puppy's ears off.


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## Serpant_Lady (Jun 24, 2007)

SperO;86204/ said:


> I did a bit of a google
> 
> 
> http://www.jaxzoo.org/animals/biofacts/CornSnake.asp



Very little is actually known about the wild behaviours of snakes - most of what we know today has actually been 'discovered' by keepers which is part of the argument put forward to allow reptiles to be kept as pets. Google is not a research tool. It is full of lies and crap. Sorry.

Also I am pretty sure the cruelty legislation covers vertebrates, hence crickets and woodies being fed live. 

AND please don't anyone try to say that giving your snake live food shut in a glass box where niether can escape and one has to kill the other is mimicking the natural environment of the snake. Should I not feed my cat or dog and catch live animals for it to hunt and kill for food?? There is NO reason in my opinion to feed live. I would assist or force feed before I tried live food as I care for my snakes too much and have spent to much money on them to risk a rat attacking them while they constrict it or attacking out of fear.

It has been demonstrated in many cases that people who relish this kind of entertainment often become violent indivduals.. just a thought


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## Hetty (Jun 24, 2007)

Serpant_Lady said:


> Also I am pretty sure the cruelty legislation covers vertebrates, hence crickets and woodies being fed live.



Yup, ethics don't apply to insects.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 24, 2007)

I appoligise for what I have said about amarican people the other day I am quite frustrated with this forum and no one will ever see why I feed one snake live so why should I bother posting in here again.

it was unfair me to point out america of being such idiets and cruel, I said it cause the snake is from there mainly and so forth. I just trying to let you know that up here in the Teritory rules are much different to every where else in australia, we are aloud to feed our snakes live, the petshops up here can choose to sell live rats to snakes or as pets, and most of them only sell the rats for food only. so we have a choice to do it or not. *Its NOT illegal up here*!!! I only choose to feed one live for that is all he will eat.

This is my last post because its all Lopsided in here no one agrees with me or will understand why I do it, so why bother keep fighting my point.

cheers Jody


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## Aussie Python Lover (Jun 24, 2007)

Here in darwin coming from two police officers it is not illegal to feed live to snakes as it is no where written here in the nt that we cant feed live to our snakes. We are a territory not a state so we have diff regulations here.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 24, 2007)

SEE told ya's thanx matey


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## Hickson (Jun 25, 2007)

The Animal Welfare Act of the Northern Territory says in Part 2 section 6:

*6. Neglect, cruelty etc.* 
(1) A person must not neglect or commit an act of cruelty on an animal. 

(2) A person in charge of an animal must – 

(a) exercise reasonable care, control or supervision of the animal to maintain the animal's welfare and prevent the neglect of the animal or the commission of an act of cruelty on it; 

(b) if it is necessary for the animal's welfare – obtain veterinary treatment for it; and 

(c) if the animal is suffering – take reasonable action to alleviate the suffering.​
(3) In this section, "an act of cruelty" includes the following: 

(a) an act that causes an animal unnecessary suffering; 

(b) an act that causes an animal suffering and is unreasonable in the circumstances; 

(c) treatment that is inhumane in the circumstances.​
If a snake will feed on dead rodents (either f/t or freshly killed), then feeding live rodents would constitute "_an act that causes an animal suffering and is unreasonable in the circumstances_" and would therefore be illegal. The maximum penalty is 100 Penalty Units or 12 Months in prison.

Northern Territory Laws appear pretty much the same as the State's laws when it comes to cruelty.



Hix


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## Miss B (Jun 25, 2007)

owned!


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## Greebo (Jun 26, 2007)

Hix it is most unfair to use facts to back up your argument. Please only post information you have heard second hand or maybe seen on TV.


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## IsK67 (Jun 26, 2007)

Greebo said:


> Hix it is most unfair to use facts to back up your argument. Please only post information you have heard second hand or maybe seen on TV.



BINGO!!

Why have a sensible discussion or debate based on fact when an argument based on misinformation, innuendo and speculation will do.


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## junglist* (Jun 26, 2007)

mysnakesau said:


> In NSW Pet shops are not allowed to sell live animals intended for food except for insects and fish.



Yes they are.

In fact, i was having troubles getting female water python to eat for about a year, and she would only ever eat live. I gradually got her onto fresh killed, and have finally moved her onto frozen as soon as i found a good quality supplier of cheap high quality rats (DARRYN from parkers enclosures does crazy good prices on rats).

i can guarantee that almost every pet store i went into not only sold live rats, but the ones that sold them actually gave discounts if you were buying the rats as feeders, so they could count on return business.

Just about everyone who did this actually kept herps themselves anyway.

There is no difference to selling a live rat as feed to breeding and culling for feed anyway, just another link in the chain between producer and consumer.


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## Miss B (Jun 26, 2007)

Are they allowed to advertise the fact that certain rats are "feeder" rats? 

I thought it was illegal for them to advertise mice or rats as feeders, but if they sell one of their 'pet' rats to you knowing that you intend to use it as a prey item, well that's their choice.


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## junglist* (Jun 26, 2007)

Cristina said:


> If u're snake isnt eating..its b/c its stressed..not b/c is dead prey



Saying this just makes you look silly. There could be a variety of reasons for it, and UNUSUAL PREY ITEMS is a very real option.


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## junglist* (Jun 26, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Are they allowed to advertise the fact that certain rats are "feeder" rats?
> 
> I thought it was illegal for them to advertise mice or rats as feeders, but if they sell one of their 'pet' rats to you knowing that you intend to use it as a prey item, well that's their choice.



Nah they just had them in the rat cages in the shops.
I told them what i would be buying them forl, which started the conversation about herps.

Great bargains as opposed to the little kiddies next to me buying pet rats.


I had one of them ask me what i was buying so many for, if i was oging to have babies.

I told them yes, baby snakes, so i can kill every rat around.

Kids mother wasnt very impressed with me.

Pet shop owner almost had his whole fist in his mouth.
Hilarious


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## hazzard (Jun 26, 2007)

krusty said:


> mice and rats only come under that law when you want to feed a live one to your snake.



Sorry mate, you are quite wrong there. The only time they don't come under ethics legislation is when they are being bred strictly for reptile food!

Sounds strange but we have just been through these applications in NSW. Of course ethics guidelines are followed for housing and euthenasia but that's it.


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## Miss B (Jun 26, 2007)

junglist* said:


> Nah they just had them in the rat cages in the shops.
> I told them what i would be buying them forl, which started the conversation about herps.


 
Ahh I see. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they can sell a rat to you knowing you plan to use it as feed, they just can't advertise them as "feeder" rats.


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## zulu (Jun 26, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Ahh I see. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they can sell a rat to you knowing you plan to use it as feed, they just can't advertise them as "feeder" rats.


Yes thats right,they can basically just sell rodents but cant advertise that they are food.Once the budding herpetologist has purchased the live rodent and wishes to feed it to his or her pet it is a recomendation that one uses the "make a wish method" of feeding.Simply hold the rodent by the tail and with a "whip snap action" shull murphey its head onto a hard surface thus sending it to "disneyland" (seeing stars).This method kills rodents quickly and they cant chew on your pet,unless they revive in which case follow steps one an two with a bulldog brower on the top of your pets enclosure.Hope this helps,happy herping


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 26, 2007)

the thing I can't understand if how is it wrong feeding it to a snake that will take it quicker then it can blink and kill in in 5 -10 seconds to you yourself killing it yourself and that taking longer to the chance of it reviving and being totally pissed off. and that act would be more derected to owning a pet, the thing is rats are not owned as pets they are bred for 2 things but what most people get them for is food its the food chain. I just don't understand....
The petshops up here have that choise of selling live for food or as pets, one won't sell them to you if they know there for food, but another sells only for food and charges a fortune because they can and because they are the only ones in Darwin that do. and they breed them, them selves, I would seriously feed them all dead if I had my way but unfortunitly one refuses to eat them, different smell and there stiff not floppy and fresh. And I hate killing things myself even when I bred them myself I hated doing it with the adults.

but anyways what is the difference in you smashing the rats head over the corner of a hard object and checking in the snake cage for it to kill it much quicker than you could???

cheers Jody


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## junglepython2 (Jun 26, 2007)

Pythons Rule said:


> the thing I can't understand if how is it wrong feeding it to a snake that will take it quicker then it can blink and kill in in 5 -10 seconds to you yourself killing it yourself and that taking longer
> cheers Jody


 
If you are taking longer then 1 second to kill the rodent yourself you are doing it wrong, let alone 10seconds.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 26, 2007)

ok whats the difference then its going to die anyways what is the difference???
I've heard all the critisizing, I just want that question answered.

and how are you to hold it and flick it? theres no ons to show you this stuff I have tried to do it the way people describe here but its not as easy as it sounds.


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## Frozenmouse (Jun 26, 2007)

my gf has a pet rat and i think it is a highly intelligent animal it has different behaviors with her and myself it has a great memory and is a lovely pet. it has completely changed the way i feel about feeding live food to snakes..
I have never seen a snake that would not go for a freshly(humainly) killed rodent..
Also as many have mentioned a live rat can be quite a risk to your herp.


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## Hickson (Jun 26, 2007)

Pythons Rule said:


> ok whats the difference then its going to die anyways what is the difference???



The difference is simple - if you give it a quick whack on the head, the rodent dies almost instantaneously and with next to no pain.

Constriction takes a fair bit longer - most rodents don't die in 5 - 10 seconds, it can take a couple of minutes or more before the last spasms stop. This is quite painful and - I imagine - terrifying for the rodent in question. And some snake might not be that hungry, they strike and start to constrict out of instinct, and then let go and ignore it (cool temps could produce this response too).



Hix


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## zulu (Jun 26, 2007)

*re Feeding*

Yep,a quick whack on the scone and there gone,HaHa Hix your turned into a killing machine


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## Python Gal (Jun 26, 2007)

*Pyhons Rule: You mean well... But will never win when it comes to posting on here about feeding live rats to your snake!! Everyone is opinionated, and has to put their word in, just to make you out to be the bad person!! The best thing to do is just keep it to yourself. Each to their own...*


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## Tatelina (Jun 26, 2007)

Wow...Thread topics do recycle as newer members join...


http://www.aussiepythons.com/showthread.php?t=43139


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## Aussie Python Lover (Jun 26, 2007)

What ppl do in the privacy of thier own home is thier business... Some ppl try to do everything they possibly can to feed thier reptile what it needs to eat. And yes snakes can become fussy on what they want to eat. Ive seen pythons rules babies they all eat dead defrosted rats expect for one.. Ive been there at her place when she has tried everything else to try get him to eat... Ppl should not flame her cause shes trying her best to get him to eat. When I have no rats My coastal has to wait til I can get to the store to get rats cause he will never ever touch a mouse he can not stand the smell. I once used to feed live to him cause he went off eating for 13mths... and i had tried everything at the time. But ppl in here always seem to jump down ppls throats and flame them and not let them explain that they have tried everything and the only way he will eat is live. He dont give a chance in hell of the rat biting him.. Until you see her big boy in person ( her cape york) you will understand why assist feeding is not an option. Instead of ppl being harsh and flaming ppl have a good think " well maybe she's tried everything"....


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## IsK67 (Jun 26, 2007)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> What ppl do in the privacy of thier own home is thier business...



You are covered by the constraints of the law whether you are in your own home or not.

Why don't people understand this basic principle? Or is it only those that intend on breaking the law that subscribe to it?


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## Python Gal (Jun 26, 2007)

Aussie Python Lover said:


> Instead of ppl being harsh and flaming ppl have a good think " well maybe she's tried everything"....


 
The ppl on here are too self centered to think about that...


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## IsK67 (Jun 26, 2007)

Python Gal said:


> The ppl on here are too self centered to think about that...



People usually react to the information at hand.

Although as quite often is the case here they react to only part of it and usually after it's been taken out of context. 

It would also help if some of those replying had a basic grasp of Australian.


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## Python Gal (Jun 26, 2007)

IsK67 said:


> Although as quite often is the case here they react to only part of it and usually after it's been taken out of context.


 
OR after they have taken it out of context. Tho a Good point, CASE CLOSED......


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## Aussie Python Lover (Jun 26, 2007)

Yes isk I understand that but really if you think of it how I do some ppl come on here and say" how bad it is to feed live blah blah blah" and they probably do it themselves but not tell anyone that they do know what i mean???.... But if you have tried everything possible and live was the only option what would you do??? Feed it a live one??? Or let it go on the course of it not eating at all??? I fed my coastal live for 3 mths after him not eating for 13mths and I always sat and watched to make sure he got it right and killed it b4 the rat had a chance of biting and so far my snake has never been bitten.... But that was a while ago since now he is almost 4yo he dont care what it is (as long as its not a mouse lol) he will eat dead, either freshly killed or defrosted. He no longer has live. So im happy he will take dead again.


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## serpenttongue (Jun 26, 2007)

Ah this thread is such a HOOT!!!

Every snake is an individual and should be treated as such, but i do strongly believe that as long as they are happy with their captive environment, then every rodent eating snake in existence will eagerly except dead prey. 

Those who cannot get snakes to take dead prey have to re-think the way they are doing things. There are so many ways to get a snake onto dead prey. You just need to get inside the snakes head and work out whats going on.


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanx aussie Pythons at least you believe me and thank you for sticking up for me. And yes I have tried every thing possible within the 3 years of my having him but he will not take dead or freshly killed rats, I can put my hand in the feeding enclosure and he's not interested, he doesn't get agressive, he never bites me when there is dead in there he goes over the other side of enclosure far away from it. I would rather my snake be healthy and eat something then let him starve and die. I really have run out of options and I would absulutely love it if he ate dead, but he just doesn't like them. Aussie pythons has been there when I've fed my snakes as she pointed out and she knows what my big capie is like, and she has seen how he is when I put my hand in the enclosure. and she is deffinatly correct and telling a 110% trueth about how he doesnt give the rat a chance to bite, the rat is gone before it hits the ground when live. he is large and heavy the rat is dead within seconds. and the laws state that you shouldn't commit a cruel thing etc to any animal in your care it doesn't say anything about an animal killing another for food.

cheers Jody


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## xycom (Jun 27, 2007)

I ncan't believe the can of worms I opened with this thread....


Per


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## Pythons Rule (Jun 28, 2007)

I tryed fresh killed today and he has 2 mediums yay


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