# Unusual Idea For A Fish Tank



## NicG (Apr 29, 2013)

Hi guys,

As the title suggests, I've had an unusual idea for a fish tank. I'm in the design stage of building a new house and I'd like to know the feasability of putting one above the lower section of staircase, with the obvious intention of being able to walk underneath it.

I'm envisaging a flat bottom for the first section and then the second section would be angled up, following or steeper than the rise of the stairs. It would have to be in a steel frame of course. But what other factors would I need to take into consideration?

Some that I've thought of are:

Access - It will be accessible from above from the rooms both sides of the staircase.

Cleaning - One of those rooms will be a bathroom for access to water and drainage.

Filtration - There will be an area beside the tank for a canister filter, which only needs to be below the water level ... not below the tank, right?

Shape - It would potentially have the following dimensions and cross-section ...

\ ............................... |
. .\ ........width =.......... |
. . . \ .......900mm....... | . . height =
. . . . .\ ...................... | . . 600mm
. . . . . . \ ................... |
45 deg . . \____________|

| <- 600 -> | <- 600 -> |

That's total volume of 486 litres, so we're talking 500kg! Is that even possible to suspend using a steel frame? Does anyone know of anybody (aquarium expert, structural engineer, etc) who I can talk to about the logistics of this?

I'm not sure what I would put in it yet - keelbacks, turtles, fish? I just need to know if it's possible, or whether I'm just dreamin' ...!

Thanks in advance,
Nic

P.S. Sometimes I hate automatic white space removers.


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## andynic07 (Apr 29, 2013)

You would need thick glass and the other problem I can see is how would you access the tank for cleaning and maintenance?


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## jacorin (Apr 29, 2013)

im trying to find a picture on facebook for you to look at Nic.....sorry mate,couldn't find it. but what it was,was a fishtank in an arch over a bed.. looked damned amazing though


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## disintegratus (Apr 29, 2013)

It's a cool idea. But a fish tank will need some kind of substrate, so when walking underneath it, you'll just be seeing rocks, and what would visibility be like in the adjacent rooms?


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## NicG (Apr 29, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> You would need thick glass and the other problem I can see is how would you access the tank for cleaning and maintenance?



It will be accessible from the rooms both sides of the staircase, and one of those rooms will be a bathroom for access to water and drainage. And given that it will be supported externally all the way around in steel framework, will thick glass definitely be required?



disintegratus said:


> It's a cool idea. But a fish tank will need some kind of substrate, so when walking underneath it, you'll just be seeing rocks, and what would visibility be like in the adjacent rooms?



I don't use a pebble or sand substrate for my current keelback and CTS semi-aquatic enclosures. I did initially, but then found that it was easier to keep clean without it. Is there any benefit to a substrate that I'm unaware of?
[Note that I'm quite the novice when it comes to fish tanks, water chemistry and the like]


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## mad_at_arms (Apr 29, 2013)

jacorin said:


> im trying to find a picture on facebook for you to look at Nic.....sorry mate,couldn't find it. but what it was,was a fishtank in an arch over a bed.. looked damned amazing though



I remember that one, pretty sure it was posted on here also.
You would want pretty silent filters for it.


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## bigjoediver (Apr 29, 2013)

Anythings feasible, if you have the cash to splash!


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## disintegratus (Apr 29, 2013)

I've always had substrate in my tanks mostly because it's easier. Waste filters down through the pebbles and contributes (once the tank is fully cycled) to the bacteria necessary to keep it healthy. If you don't have substrate, you are relying on the filter/s alone to have the required amount of bacteria, which is doable definitely, but substrate gives you a greater surface area for it to exist. That and I find that dpendant on the fish and the tank, sometimes you end up with constant annoying bits of poop that won't go away however often you clean because fish are basically constant poop machines.


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## justin91 (Apr 29, 2013)

Mate thats an awesome idea. I can't help much but just wanted say, can't wait to see some pics haha


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## chase77 (Apr 29, 2013)

Is this the photo your looking for.


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## J-A-X (Apr 29, 2013)

That was on "tanked" it's all Perspex


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## marcus0002 (Apr 29, 2013)

Sorry the one i found already posted


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## thomasssss (Apr 29, 2013)

NicG said:


> I just need to know if it's possible, or whether I'm just dreamin' ...!


its 2013 , anythings possible .....just need the cash


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## butters (Apr 29, 2013)

Definitely possible but you do not want any of the steel frame coming in contact with the glass. Contact between steel and glass usually results in cracked glass.

You would be looking at 10-12mm glass ( preferably 12mm or even thicker ) due to the height of the water and extra stresses due to the shape. Remember you have to walk under this.


Do you need the 45 degree angle? That one feature will add considerably to the cost.


I have actually made the same tank before although on a much smaller scale.

The steel frame itself ( if constructed correctly , and sufficient gauge ) will take the weight but how is that going to be affixed to the house? That is most likely to be the fail point as I'm guessing there will be no vertical supports beneath the tank. Just suspended.


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## wokka (Apr 29, 2013)

Half a tonne doesn't sound like an overly big challenge to suspend.That 5 people which any staircase should be designed to support.


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## andynic07 (Apr 29, 2013)

wokka said:


> Half a tonne doesn't sound like an overly big challenge to suspend.That 5 people which any staircase should be designed to support.


Would that limit the number of people using the stairs at one time?


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## butters (Apr 29, 2013)

Other thing to think about is viewing. You will have lights above so will probably see more of a silhouette when viewed from below. Also you would not want anything resting on the bottom pane of glass as you will need to move it every time you clean it or you will get a build up around anything resting on the base.

When viewed through the angled end there should be little distortion but you will see the lights as you move towards the bottom.

Also try and get who ever makes the tank to mitre the join on the bottom pane of the angled side. So mitre the base. Will make for a much stronger join and if they can put some neoprene bushes into the join as well it would be a bonus. Pressures will try and push that panel out and down from the top and you don't want the two pieces of glass at the bottom coming into contact. Normally this isnt an issue it's the angle that makes it an issue.


Substrate acts as extra filtration. If you don't have the substrate you need to pick up the slack with better filtration.


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## NicG (Apr 30, 2013)

butters said:


> Definitely possible but you do not want any of the steel frame coming in contact with the glass. Contact between steel and glass usually results in cracked glass.



Thanks, that's exactly the type of advice that I need.



butters said:


> You would be looking at 10-12mm glass ( preferably 12mm or even thicker ) due to the height of the water and extra stresses due to the shape. Remember you have to walk under this.



I was hoping to get away with 10mm glass, given that all the edges and joints will be supported externally.



butters said:


> Do you need the 45 degree angle? That one feature will add considerably to the cost.



Since it's above the staircase, the base of it needs to rise as the stairs go up.



butters said:


> The steel frame itself (if constructed correctly, and sufficient gauge) will take the weight but how is that going to be affixed to the house? That is most likely to be the fail point as I'm guessing there will be no vertical supports beneath the tank. Just suspended.



That is one of my major questions. I'm presuming that it will be supported by a cross beam extending from both sides at the four corners shown in the cross-section, and possibly an extra one halfway along the angled side.


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## NicG (Apr 30, 2013)

butters said:


> Substrate acts as extra filtration. If you don't have the substrate you need to pick up the slack with better filtration.
> 
> Other thing to think about is viewing. You will have lights above so will probably see more of a silhouette when viewed from below. Also you would not want anything resting on the bottom pane of glass as you will need to move it every time you clean it or you will get a build up around anything resting on the base.



Maybe a better design would be to make the flat bottom section smaller, say 300mm, and reduce the angle to 30 degrees. Given that I still want the angled section to extend 900mm, this would reduce the height to 520mm ... probably not such a bad thing!

Then if I accept that I need substrate and can't see through the bottom, then that whole flat bottom can now be supported as a 'plate' rather than using 'bars'. Therefore I would definitely need another 'bar' halfway along the angled section, which is now 1039mm long. Ah trigonometry, how I've missed you!



butters said:


> When viewed through the angled end there should be little distortion but you will see the lights as you move towards the bottom.



What if, at least some of, the lighting wasn't directed straight down? If I end up having to make the fish tank narrower than the width of the stairway (due to weight issues), then I could possibly direct some LED lights in from the side ...?



butters said:


> Also try and get who ever makes the tank to mitre the join on the bottom pane of the angled side. So mitre the base. Will make for a much stronger join and if they can put some neoprene bushes into the join as well it would be a bonus. Pressures will try and push that panel out and down from the top and you don't want the two pieces of glass at the bottom coming into contact. Normally this isnt an issue it's the angle that makes it an issue.



Thanks again for the tip. Will a 30 degree angle be more or less stable than a 45 degree angle? Or, more correctly, will a 150 degree interior angle be more or less stable than a 135 degree interior angle?

This now begs the question: is it worth having a flat bottom at all? Should bottom of the tank be entirely angled- ie cross-section is now a triangle? Again, I'd accept that a certain percentage of the bottom would need substrate, and that entire section could be 'plate-supported'.


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 30, 2013)

No substrate is no problem for almost all fish species excluding those who burrow naturally. My opinion though having worked in the industry for 7 years is that it is too much effort for minimal viewing pleasures. Viewing from below does not allow for much appreciation of the fishes colour or behaviour. So while it has some initial wow factor I think it will get old very quickly, especially when you will need to keep the glass spick and span. I would suggest a more typical fish tank (maybe something in the wall).

Or if you want to go ahead with it and have the money to back it up go and talk to Majestic Aquariums. The prices are astronomical but they have the resources and experience to make a project like this work, even if you only use them to learn how to do it then go elsewhere?


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## andynic07 (Apr 30, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> No substrate is no problem for almost all fish species excluding those who burrow naturally. My opinion though having worked in the industry for 7 years is that it is too much effort for minimal viewing pleasures. Viewing from below does not allow for much appreciation of the fishes colour or behaviour. So while it has some initial wow factor I think it will get old very quickly, especially when you will need to keep the glass spick and span. I would suggest a more typical fish tank (maybe something in the wall).
> 
> Or if you want to go ahead with it and have the money to back it up go and talk to Majestic Aquariums. The prices are astronomical but they have the resources and experience to make a project like this work, even if you only use them to learn how to do it then go elsewhere?


I guess the amount of time spent on the stairs looking up would be very minimal.


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## mudgudgeon (Apr 30, 2013)

A mate of mine had a large fish tank above the stairs, it was above floor level on the top floor, you could see it as you walked down the stairs, (but not from underneath) and could see it from the lounge room at the top of the stairs. It looked great.

I agree, you'd get limited pleasure having it viewed from below. For me, the best thing about my fish tank was sitting and watching the fish do their thing.

What you are suggesting is 100% possible, 500kg is no big deal from a structural perspective. But I think you'd get limited value from an expensive exercise.


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## borntobnude (Apr 30, 2013)

talk to these guys 
if they can build one in a shopping center they could help with a staircase


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## butters (Apr 30, 2013)

You don't need to have substrate. Just may need to get the next size up filter or put extra media in is all. 

I tend to agree with some of the others in that the viewing will not be as good as yyou may wish but it would definitely be a talking point.


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## borntobnude (Apr 30, 2013)

My Father inlaw built his own home and put a tropical tank 8ft x 2ft and 4 ft high in the kitchen/ dining room wall , the suporting wall was besser block . It was 12mm glass surrounded by a wooden frame with metal lashing , this was hidden by the surronds . It was acsessed from the kitchen fitration was hidden in a cupboard with direct drainage for ease of cleaning . A bendable perspex divider could be inserted and 1/2 of the tank emptied and cleaned fresh water added and conditioned and the divider removed . I have no pics , this tank is now for my carnivorous plants and the hole in his wall is a display unit for plants .


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## mcloughlin2 (Apr 30, 2013)

borntobnude said:


> My Father inlaw built his own home and put a tropical tank 8ft x 2ft and 4 ft high in the kitchen/ dining room wall , the suporting wall was besser block . It was 12mm glass surrounded by a wooden frame with metal lashing , this was hidden by the surronds . It was acsessed from the kitchen fitration was hidden in a cupboard with direct drainage for ease of cleaning . A bendable perspex divider could be inserted and 1/2 of the tank emptied and cleaned fresh water added and conditioned and the divider removed . I have no pics , this tank is now for my carnivorous plants and the hole in his wall is a display unit for plants .



A fish tank that is 4 ft high would need much thicker glass then 12mm even with a metal frame. Is this correct? If it is it is one of the tallest private aquariums I know of in Australia. Also interested in the concept of the divider - did it divide the tank in half and then hold a 4x2x4 section of tank with water in it?


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## butters (Apr 30, 2013)

There are numerous private aquariums in homes in australia that exceed over 1200mm high. I know of a couple that exceed 1800mm high.

The glass in these tanks though is thicker than 12mm. 19-25mm in most cases. Very expensive aquariums but there are a few out there.


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## borntobnude (Apr 30, 2013)

mcloughlin2 said:


> A fish tank that is 4 ft high would need much thicker glass then 12mm even with a metal frame. Is this correct? If it is it is one of the tallest private aquariums I know of in Australia. Also interested in the concept of the divider - did it divide the tank in half and then hold a 4x2x4 section of tank with water in it?



Was , is gone now (we took it out about 15 yrs ago ) .It was magnificent to say the least , As said he built the house also and his own inground pool although this was not as successful as the house and was converted to a goldfish pond within a year  trout would of been more useful .
.Yes the divider worked reasonably well with a groove made by two strips of glass glued to each side of the tank the divider slipped down and a wooden reinforcement put in place and 1/2 the tank cleaned --refilled water conditioned and the divider taken out . he is not they type to tell everyone about his exploits


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## NicG (May 1, 2013)

mudgudgeon said:


> I agree, you'd get limited pleasure having it viewed from below. For me, the best thing about my fish tank was sitting and watching the fish do their thing.
> 
> What you are suggesting is 100% possible, 500kg is no big deal from a structural perspective. But I think you'd get limited value from an expensive exercise.



My reason for wanting it is so that you can see into/under the angled section as you're walking down the stairs. Then being able to walk undermeath it just seemed kinda cool to me. Due to a cathedral ceiling in the adjacent room, you'll also be able to see into it from the other (vertical) side.


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## mudgudgeon (May 1, 2013)

Definitely sounds kinda cool 

While it would have some challenges, it would achievable for sure.

if you think about the weight and structural requirements 500kg is not a lot really. If it is supported at four corners, that's 125kg per corner, not hard to deal with at all.
I used to have a 350L fish tank on a stand, it just sat on the floor boards in the lounge room, with no issue at all

can you take a pic of where it would go? draw a sketch of what you are thinking?


edit: ooops, just re read the OP and see that you cant take a pic :lol:

I don't think your sketch was there when I first read it either?

I would look at trying to incorporate a sump type filter system into the tank if you can conceal it.

from your little sketch, the weak points in the tank design are the two bottom corners, all the weight of the water is pushing down and outward with the most force at the bottom of the tank.


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## Cypher69 (May 1, 2013)

butters said:


> You don't need to have substrate. Just may need to get the next size up filter or put extra media in is all.
> 
> I tend to agree with some of the others in that the viewing will not be as good as yyou may wish but it would definitely be a talking point.



You can substrate & then have viewing "portal holes" with several large diameter pvc pipes laid upright.
And I wouldn't use an undergravel filter set-up for this size tank but simply rely on exterior canister or wet/dry filtration.


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## Amazing Amazon (May 2, 2013)

The idea sounds fantastic! The only advice I can offer is see a structural engineer and work out logistics with weights/supports/etc.


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## NicG (May 2, 2013)

Amazing Amazon said:


> The idea sounds fantastic! The only advice I can offer is see a structural engineer and work out logistics with weights/supports/etc.



What about with regards to filtration? Am I correct in assuming that a canister filter only needs to be below the waterline, not below the tank? What are the additional benefits of a sump filter?


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## mudgudgeon (May 2, 2013)

Google sump filter.there's heaps of info available.
You can have a larger filter system, more filter medium etc. It's far more effective and simpler in some ways. It can be self contained as part of the tank.

Yes, a canister filter needs to be below water level so the pump is primed, ie not pumping air. They are good at pushing water up hill, within reason, but no good at sucking it up out of a tank.


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## burkey (May 2, 2013)

.......brilliant.... find a tradie that deals with it get a professional, this would be a crazy DIY unless you know your stuff....... Do it!! Seriously brilliant! Your building a new house, only time you'd be able to do it. Depending on the fish type will kinda dictate the design of the filter in a sense. If its freshwater and you get away with a canister filter they use a pump so should not matter where in relation to water level you put it. 
Plus you wont need a substrate for a lot of these kinds of fish. However cleaning will be a ***** !! If you have no substrate...... And you have a flat bottom.....And no substrate so you can see it looking up......The **Poos!** will settle on the bottom very quickly it will become a daily thing. 
I think this is why the bedroom design above, and underwater world etc use a curve for where people walk through. With the flat parts with substrate ETC..... 

I dun know just a thought But seriously.... Do it


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## Virides (May 3, 2013)

This would be installed within the structure of the house and considering that most stair cases exist alongside a load bearing wall, that the structure within the wall will need sufficient posts directly adjacent to the fish tank (this should ensure the tank doesn't take any actual load, but rather the post). You will need to consult with your architect however.

The archway would effectively become the feature of the base of the stairs. This was a rough up, but I could go into more detail later. I can provide concept drawings for you as well that will help your architect/engineer to better grasp the project's requirements.


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## NicG (May 9, 2013)

mudgudgeon, burkey ... thanks for your valued input.

Virides ... if that's your idea of a rough-up, then I may have chosen the wrong building designer for my house! That's a little grandiose for what I have in mind, but I appreciate your efforts. The idea is to be under the tank for as long as possible ... even if that's technically an angled - rather than horizontal - bottom.


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## Amazing Amazon (May 9, 2013)

NicG said:


> What about with regards to filtration? Am I correct in assuming that a canister filter only needs to be below the waterline, not below the tank? What are the additional benefits of a sump filter?


If you use a pressurized pond filter you can put it wherever you like!


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## Virides (May 9, 2013)

NicG said:


> Virides ... if that's your idea of a rough-up, then I may have chosen the wrong building designer for my house! That's a little grandiose for what I have in mind, but I appreciate your efforts. The idea is to be under the tank for as long as possible ... even if that's technically an angled - rather than horizontal - bottom.



That's ok  Food for thought anyways. I changed your design because I couldn't figure a practical way to service the length of the tank in the way that you wanted it. Any design is possible but what really restricts it is the practicality of servicing.


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## NicG (May 28, 2013)

Virides said:


> I changed your design because I couldn't figure a practical way to service the length of the tank in the way that you wanted it.



Virides, this might help it make a little more sense ...



There will be access from both sides of the tank - from the bedroom cupboard doors on one side and from a service cupboard, located at the end of a bathroom, on the other side. The bathroom will provide both a water source and a convenient drain.

The bottom of the fish tank will be at approximately floor level (of the second floor).


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