# Are Common Tree Snakes Venomous? (with tag photos)



## NicG (Sep 6, 2010)

Hi guys,

When Gigantor - the biggest Common Tree Snake any of my group of friends have ever seen - mistook my finger for a fish, I decided to take advantage of the situation. Rather than encourage her to let go of my finger as soon as possible (after taking photos of course), I decided to experiment on myself.

There is a school of thought that CTS produce venom of sorts, apparently in a similar fashion to the entire monitor family. Having been bitten a number of times previously, I personally don't think they are venomous - certainly not to humans. Their saliva may have certain properties that induce certain effects (anti/coagulant) but actual venom ...?

So here I have an unequivocably full grown CTS chewing on my finger and now starting to, a little painfully, slice into the skin on my knuckle. Against my natural instincts, I let her be, wondering whether she'd let go by herself. She didn't. After at least 15 minutes, I figured that was long enough and resorted to the cold water tap in the basin.

When she did eventually release me, my finger was completely covered with saliva. So much so that there was very little blood at this point. It wasn't until, not without some effort, I cleaned off the saliva coating that I realized just how deep the main cut was. If there was going to be any adverse effects, then surely this is the optimal scenario.

The blood soon started flowing quite profusely. It took quite some time and several sheets of paper towel before it eventually subsided enough to apply a bandaid. So now all I had to do was wait and see if a) I felt sick at all, or b) there was any local reaction. The answer to both is a resounding no.

Cheers,
Nic


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## Darlyn (Sep 6, 2010)

Ha ha send it in to Dr Karl. Excellent experiment : )


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## Australis (Sep 6, 2010)

It does look like a good sized snake from those photos Nic.

Your anecdotal account doesn't lend any weight to an argument that its non-venomous... it definitely seems the venom is of no consequence to humans, but maybe its enough to subdue amphibians?
Not the best example but take the sea anemone related to human killing box jelly fish, i can run my finger through one and let it attach and theres no symptoms of envenomation no matter how long i leave my finger in it.. yet its most definitely venomous.. jsut its delivery method isn't adequate for penetrating human skin... its cousin the box jellyfish has the same method but more adequately proportioned i think.


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## Tsubakai (Sep 7, 2010)

As Australis states your uncontrolled, unblinded experiment of n=1 observations is not scientifically valid in disproving the existence of venom in CTS. However they are pretty nice photos for those who enjoy seeing some blood spilt.


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## NicG (Sep 7, 2010)

Naturally I have no misconceptions that my experiment was in any way scientific. I merely wanted to promote discussion and see if anyone has any anecdotal evidence that a bite from a Common Tree Snake has ever produced any kind of adverse reaction (apart from bleeding!).

My guess is no. And if correct, the word venomous (regardless of any accompanying qualifier like "mildly or even "harmlessly") should not be bandied about when making references to this species.


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## Echiopsis (Sep 7, 2010)

What effect the bite has on humans in no way, shape, or form relates to whether or not it is venomous. The natural world carries on without human interruption, what isnt venomous to us may well be to something else.


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## snakehandler (Sep 7, 2010)

has anyone seen one constrict its prey????? If not then how does it kill?......I dont know the answer to this...but it is a question that I have pondered for a while too!


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## Midcoaster (Sep 7, 2010)

what about the rear fanged brown tree snake has anyone on here been envenomated by one?


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## NicG (Sep 7, 2010)

They simply catch and swallow. It can be actually disconcerting at first, watching a CTS swallow a still-live fish. [But lucky no-one on here cares about fish, as compared to live rodents!]

I actually do know someone who has had a bad reaction to a Brown Tree Snake bite, but this seems to be person-specific. There are many people who have had harmless bites. I once let a sub-adult one chew on my finger for 30 secs [didn't have the balls to let it go any longer!] with no ill-effects.


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## pythonmum (Sep 7, 2010)

Venom or not, if the snake nicked the joint capsule, you could be in for a nasty infection that may lead to joint destruction. A soak in peroxide for 15 minutes after a bite near the joint was recommended by hand surgeons I worked for. If any redness and swelling of joint, don't fool around and get to a doctor.


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## Charlie09 (Sep 7, 2010)

I feed mine fish and they take them head first and the tail keeps flapping all the way down but it's to hard to tell if they are alive or just still twitching...I think the arguments pretty safe to say if they do have any venom it's not harmful to humans, but would be good for further scientific research to get a definative answer


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## monitordude (Sep 7, 2010)

jeez your finger was down it throte a fair way. lol


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## Nagraj (Sep 7, 2010)

Midcoaster said:


> what about the rear fanged brown tree snake has anyone on here been envenomated by one?


 
I've had many, many bites from night tigers but only had one with any symptoms and that required a fair bit of chewing from a 600-700mm specimen (smallish) . Some local swelling of a finger and a bit of soreness, probably less troublesome than a bee sting. 


disclaimer - just because it didn't have any major effect on _ME_ does not mean that it is safe for everyone to do.


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## $NaKe PiMp (Sep 9, 2010)

i been bitten by 1.8m brown tree snake a few times, no adverse effects at all


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## craigmckell (Sep 9, 2010)

Yeah I have been bitten by a brown tree snake which was well over a meter long and no effect, not to say that I was actually envenomated though, just bitten.


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## Sdaji (Sep 10, 2010)

I was once envenomated by a hatchling Brown Treesnake, which hadn't even had its first feed. It was an extremely mild reaction, just a very minor itch/sting, but there was an unmistakable reaction to the venom. I've also been bitten by an adult with no affect (other than a few skin punctures). I was amazed the hatchling managed to get those rear fangs in, it must have been a lucky shot.

Venomous vs nonvenomous isn't black and white, but the mistake is commonly made because the grey areas are rare.

Interesting experiment, Nic. Thanks for donating your body and time to science, and reporting it


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## Snakeluvver2 (Sep 12, 2010)

Well I feed my Tree Snakes live geckos and feeder fish. When they take down geckos I think its really evident they have venom. The gecko's stop struggling after about a minute of being bitten (a good bite though!) regardless if the snake has let go or not.


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## -Matt- (Sep 12, 2010)

I have taken a few bites from juvie brown tree snakes and each reaction to the venom has been slightly worse than the one before. Stinging and slight swelling at the bite site that lasts for an hour at most. 

This is interesting though...

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/snake-bite-reaction-130382/


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## giggle (Nov 9, 2010)

Jannico said:


> Well I feed my Tree Snakes live geckos and feeder fish. When they take down geckos I think its really evident they have venom. The gecko's stop struggling after about a minute of being bitten (a good bite though!) regardless if the snake has let go or not.


 
geckoes play dead though. Or they certainly go limp lol

Someone should do a full scientific study. I hate it when there is a commonly held theory that people state as fact.


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## garthy (Nov 9, 2010)

I Know someone who was bitten on the testicles by a BTS, very painful and very, very ugly


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## Snakeluvver2 (Nov 9, 2010)

A study on what. Weither there venomous or not...I'm assuming it has been done. 
Venomdoc Forums :: View topic - Venomous Australian Colubrids.


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## snakehandler (Nov 10, 2010)

I knew that I had read it somewhere before, and recently when working with Bryan we had discussed this issue......it is interesting to note that they are venomous, although not significant, much like many of the lizard species that have been identified as having venom present.


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## NicG (Nov 10, 2010)

As I mentioned in a similar CTS/colubrid thread (with a link to this one) ...

_With regards to venomous / non-venomous, the point I'm trying to make is that there is a stigma associated with the phrase "venomous snake" and rightly or wrongly, people see us keepers as experts. If we start saying that these common-in-backyard snakes are venomous - regardless of the qualification, people are increasingly alarmist and hear what they want to hear - then it could mean that many of these fascinating and beautiful snakes meet with an untimely death.

In this case, being 'right' may come with a cost._


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## snakehandler (Nov 11, 2010)

In many cases it is better to teach people that all snakes can cause damage, be it through venom or a simple bite, it is better to leave them alone and if concerned contact a local snake catcher.....we have a simple community message...NO OWNER NO TOUCH....attempting to teach people the difference between a venomous snake and a harmless one is no easy feat, especially when doctors and nurses in some Queensland hospitals are telling staff to ensure that all snake bite are dangerous because pythons and venomous snake are breeding together.....this is from first hand experience....I have actually heard this stated in a hospital. Before people start to comment on the impossibility of this and how such intelligent people can make such a mistake, remember that people see animals from our domestic point of view, a German Shepard can breed with a fox terrier, so why cant a python and venomous snake breed? After all most people think a snake is a snake.


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## snakeluvver (Dec 9, 2010)

Does this mean all colubrids, including Milk Snakes, Corn Snakes, Garter Snakes, Tree Snakes, Keelbacks ect have some sort of venom in their saliva?


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## Reptile-Man (Dec 9, 2010)

you will be fine,
tree snakes are with the colubrid or colubridae family mean rear fanged!
so he most of got a good bite on you to get that woon,
no there a mild venom much like a bee sting you will be fine unless you are alergic to lots of things.


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## moosenoose (Dec 9, 2010)

Tree snakes have an uncanny way of snapping that head back to close on 180degrees :lol: So now those rear fangs are right out the front!

That looks like a wonderful tree snake! How long is he/she? Is it just eating fish?


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## NicG (Jul 2, 2011)

*Oops ... I did it again!*

Same snake, same result! Although index finger this time ...





It took 45 minutes, methylated spirits and the 'two spoon method' to get her to stop trying to eat me on this occasion.


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## Sdaji (Jul 4, 2011)

Far out! That thing is an absolute monster!


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## NicG (Jul 10, 2011)

Yeah, she's a big'un!

She wasn't in the best of health last year - wasn't shedding properly, etc - but with a bit of TLC she's perked right up. I'm hoping to get a few (read: a lot) of eggs out of her this season, unless she's so big and old that she's past her breeding window ... or she decides to eat her prospective mate!


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