# Define patternless children’s python



## Soxau (Aug 17, 2019)

Being green to the reptile world. I would love some options on a true patternless children’s python hatchling please 
When I first went on the hunt for one I found a beautiful one which was the best way to describe it was a dull grey almost
Since I hesitated on buying it it got sold now that I’m back on the hunt there has been a couple for sale but have had faded spots on them and are lighter in colour almost a chocolate/dirt colour... 

Are true patternless children’s pythons born with no pattern at all?


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## Herpetology (Aug 17, 2019)

This is a patternless


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## Soxau (Aug 17, 2019)

So I have been offer to buy this one... they are saying a patternless 
I questioned is it a reduced pattern?? Thoughts?


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## Chumana (Aug 17, 2019)

I am also interested to know this as I am still getting my head around genetics.I understand the punnet square but not so much on how to determine what traits are recessive or dominant.
What makes a so-called true patternless?Is it a recessive gene where you would need 2 visual patternless or het to produce these as you would with albinism etc. so if I was to breed a visual patternless with a wild type would they all be 100% het for patternless?
Or is it a dominant gene?
I have seen some being sold as patternless but only one parent is visual & hatchies are similar to the pic above.


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## Sdaji (Aug 18, 2019)

Patternless is a word which literally means without pattern, but the term gets used pretty loosely by many keepers. Some people will only use it in reference to snakes which hatch without pattern, others will use it for snakes which hatch with pattern then fade to having no visible pattern as adults, and there are plenty of idiots who use it even for adult snakes with quite obvious pattern.

You can have two hatch out completely patternless, breed them together and get patterned babies. There's a lot of misconception about the genetics, and the way the term is used.

Patternless Children's can be in various shades of brown/greyish brown, or in the case of T+ or other mutation versions, other colours.

I had an Elcho which as an adult had absolutely no visible pattern, she was a patternless dark brown, but once in a while late at night she would change to a light grey with high contrast pattern. The first time I saw it I was shocked, I didn't recognise the snake and I couldn't understand how it got there, it looked completely different.

I personally wouldn't call anything patternless unless it was patternless, and while I wouldn't argue with people who describe faded patternless adults as patternless, I personally wouldn't describe them simply as patternless.

Patternless Children's Pythons can be produced in a variety of ways. 'Patternless' is an adjective, not a mutation. This seems to be a difficult concept for many people to grasp, and the term gets used by different people at different times as an adjective, mutation, morph or nonsensically. Definitely confusing for people just learning about them!


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## Chumana (Aug 19, 2019)

Thank you Sdaji.This definitely brings clarity to my confusion.


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## nick_75 (Aug 19, 2019)

Hi Sdaji,



Sdaji said:


> I had an Elcho


I have been trying to buy an Elcho for many years, I have found breeders interstate but have not been able to get them to freight. Do you know of anyone currently breeding them?

Regards,
Nick


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## Sdaji (Aug 20, 2019)

nick_75 said:


> Hi Sdaji,
> 
> 
> I have been trying to buy an Elcho for many years, I have found breeders interstate but have not been able to get them to freight. Do you know of anyone currently breeding them?
> ...



They were quite popular for many years, back when locality animals were the cool things. I bred them for generations and had fun with them, I particularly found it interesting how quickly I could select for good feeders: this locality is renown for having stubborn hatchlings but by selecting for the best feeders I quickly had clutches which fed well right from the first offering. But eventually I figured there wasn't much point continuing since I really didn't have any further direction to take the project, so they went to make way for other things. Like me, a lot of people lost interest in Elchos due to preference for morphs. I personally had my interest switch away from Elchos once I had my first 'patternless out of the egg' childreni, but mostly it's just sometimes difficult to stay interested in something when you've already done generations of it and you're not working further towards anything new with the project. I had been planning to select for the most patternless ones, but I was never going to get Elchos truly patternless and that job was already done in other lines.

They're one of those things which went through a cycle of popularity, and after it faded they've become hard to find, but there are still some floating around. Everyone I know with them has either gotten rid of them or stopped bothering to routinely breed them due to lack of interest/value. I still have a soft spot for them though.

Anyway, that's a very long way to say 'sorry, I don't know of anyone local to recommend', but if you really want some and you know of a good breeder interstate, I'd suggest just shelling out for freight. If you're buying a couple of pairs or trio it'll only add about $30 per animal - a very small price to pay for something you've been chasing for "many years".


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## Chumana (Aug 20, 2019)

Are you still producing patternless childreni?


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## nick_75 (Aug 20, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> They were quite popular for many years, back when locality animals were the cool things. I bred them for generations and had fun with them, I particularly found it interesting how quickly I could select for good feeders: this locality is renown for having stubborn hatchlings but by selecting for the best feeders I quickly had clutches which fed well right from the first offering. But eventually I figured there wasn't much point continuing since I really didn't have any further direction to take the project, so they went to make way for other things. Like me, a lot of people lost interest in Elchos due to preference for morphs. I personally had my interest switch away from Elchos once I had my first 'patternless out of the egg' childreni, but mostly it's just sometimes difficult to stay interested in something when you've already done generations of it and you're not working further towards anything new with the project. I had been planning to select for the most patternless ones, but I was never going to get Elchos truly patternless and that job was already done in other lines.
> 
> They're one of those things which went through a cycle of popularity, and after it faded they've become hard to find, but there are still some floating around. Everyone I know with them has either gotten rid of them or stopped bothering to routinely breed them due to lack of interest/value. I still have a soft spot for them though.
> 
> Anyway, that's a very long way to say 'sorry, I don't know of anyone local to recommend', but if you really want some and you know of a good breeder interstate, I'd suggest just shelling out for freight. If you're buying a couple of pairs or trio it'll only add about $30 per animal - a very small price to pay for something you've been chasing for "many years".



Thanks for the reply, I will continue the search. I am frustrated that I have found two breeders that do breed occasionally but can't get my hands on a hatchling. One breeder does not freight (he has no licence or car) and is interstate. The other breeder will freight but has been difficult in nailing down a sale and getting paperwork filled out. I will keep in contact with them both and hope that one finally comes through.


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## Sdaji (Aug 20, 2019)

Chumana said:


> Are you still producing patternless childreni?



It's not a priority, but patternless babies pop up in some of the het-visual clutches. We usually get some patternless het marbles, although we're not breeding as many hets now. I gave away my basic patternless Children's a few years ago. Again, there was no direction to take the project in, no further goals, and while they were popular they weren't fetching higher prices. That may actually have changed now, I'm not sure. I still really like them but sometimes I just can't find any excitement in continuing a project with no further goals. Having patternless hets means I still get to play with patternless Children's while simultaneously developing morphs.
[doublepost=1566287632,1566286900][/doublepost]


nick_75 said:


> Thanks for the reply, I will continue the search. I am frustrated that I have found two breeders that do breed occasionally but can't get my hands on a hatchling. One breeder does not freight (he has no licence or car) and is interstate. The other breeder will freight but has been difficult in nailing down a sale and getting paperwork filled out. I will keep in contact with them both and hope that one finally comes through.



Haha! Ah, yeah, sometimes sellers can be just as painful as the majority of buyers! I'm fond of road trips even just for their own sake and I've sometimes gone on big road trips for the sake of picking up animals I want (actually, I've sometimes used selling animals as an excuse and driven them personally rather than putting them on a plane). I'd just take the excuse to make a road trip and pick them up, although I know not everyone is as into long drives as I am. Incidentally, the people I know who still have them are in Victoria and NSW. Also, some people crossed Elchos and some crosses have been sold as pure Elchos. I've even seen 'het Elchos' for sale!!!

Out of curiosity, what's the appeal to you? I originally wanted some because I was excited about such a specific, tangible locality, and I liked patternless Children's. 

It seems amusing to think back now. When I first got mine I was asked to be quiet about the locality because, well, apparently it was hush hush that they even existed in captivity. A few years later people started openly talking about Elchos and I figured there was no longer an issue with me talking about what mine were. Funny to think that back then I had no interest in morphs, and now I'm not really very interested in localities (with a few sentimental exceptions).
[doublepost=1566289013][/doublepost]This thread made me feel like looking at some old pictures. At the time I was so excited about this, and I suppose seeing the picture brings back some of that feeling. These both hatched patternless and most of the clutch from this pairing hatched patternless or close to it. At the time I got my hands on this pair as hatchlings they were hot property, by the time I sold them as proven breeder adults they weren't really in demand. When I sold their first clutch there were countless people raving about how much they desperately wanted them, but no one would pay more than the price of a regular one! Haha!


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## nick_75 (Aug 21, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Haha! Ah, yeah, sometimes sellers can be just as painful as the majority of buyers! I'm fond of road trips even just for their own sake and I've sometimes gone on big road trips for the sake of picking up animals I want (actually, I've sometimes used selling animals as an excuse and driven them personally rather than putting them on a plane). I'd just take the excuse to make a road trip and pick them up, although I know not everyone is as into long drives as I am. Incidentally, the people I know who still have them are in Victoria and NSW. Also, some people crossed Elchos and some crosses have been sold as pure Elchos. I've even seen 'het Elchos' for sale!!!



I don't think I have the patience to regularly sell reptiles. I could not stand dealing with the amount of idiots that I imagine sellers have to deal with. As a buyer I try not to be of those idiots. I pay when told, pick up when told and don't haggle over price.
I have thought of a road trip but Brisbane to Sydney and back again is a bit far. If I don't have any success in the next year I will reassess the road trip option.
I hope that the breeders I have found have pure blood animals. I tracked down these breeders from with help from Bonustokin. They had both bought pairs from him.



Sdaji said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the appeal to you? I originally wanted some because I was excited about such a specific, tangible locality, and I liked patternless Children's.



The appeal is the uniqueness of the locality. Genetic isolation does fantastic things to populations, you commonly study cases of island gigantism, island dwarfism or in this case hypermelanism.



Sdaji said:


> This thread made me feel like looking at some old pictures. At the time I was so excited about this, and I suppose seeing the picture brings back some of that feeling. These both hatched patternless and most of the clutch from this pairing hatched patternless or close to it. At the time I got my hands on this pair as hatchlings they were hot property, by the time I sold them as proven breeder adults they weren't really in demand. When I sold their first clutch there were countless people raving about how much they desperately wanted them, but no one would pay more than the price of a regular one! Haha!



I know I missed the boat on the Elchos and many other localities that were popular for a time then disappeared into obscurity. I was living and working overseas for many years, if I was here I would have got them. I would have paid the extra, I have no trouble paying extra for uniqueness.


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## Sdaji (Aug 22, 2019)

nick_75 said:


> I don't think I have the patience to regularly sell reptiles. I could not stand dealing with the amount of idiots that I imagine sellers have to deal with. As a buyer I try not to be of those idiots. I pay when told, pick up when told and don't haggle over price.



Haha, I totally hear you! People ask for a million questions, don't turn up on the day they say, turn up late the next time, then wonder why you won't reduce the price to far below what everyone else is selling animals of lower quality for, etc. I've had the 'my wife said no' excuse days or weeks after they've said they're going to send payment quite a few times this year. I've also had jokers saying they had XYZ financial disaster, and the next day they're bugging other people in regard to different ads! Crazy stuff.



> I have thought of a road trip but Brisbane to Sydney and back again is a bit far. If I don't have any success in the next year I will reassess the road trip option.


 Haha, Brisbane to Sydney is just down the road by my standards. Just ask my mechanic how many km I typically rack up! Haha, some people love the road more than others.



> I hope that the breeders I have found have pure blood animals. I tracked down these breeders from with help from Bonustokin. They had both bought pairs from him.


 I hope so too. 



> The appeal is the uniqueness of the locality. Genetic isolation does fantastic things to populations, you commonly study cases of island gigantism, island dwarfism or in this case hypermelanism.



Sounds similar to the appeal they had/have to me, although I think the 'hypermelanism' thing in them is a bit overplayed. They're a bit darker than an average Children's but you get similar things on the mainland. I just liked them coming from a distinct population and being an easily quantifiable thing. Most localities are vague and mislabelled, but I knew my Elchos were pure Elcho Island, which for whatever silly sentimental reason made me very happy. The thing I started finding unappealing about locality animals is that 'locality' conflicted with my objective of 'improvement'. Like with the Elchos, I was wanting to select for patternless adults and good feeders. I wasn't keeping them true to their origin anyway, so I started questioning why I cared about having any of the localities I was working with. I still have a vague preference for locality pure, even in morphs, but I can see how irrational and nonsensical that is. Even the people who say you can't improve on nature and they don't like morphs still want the best feeder, the nice handler, the one with the brightest colour or contrast, rather than something as typical as possible of a wild animal. Absolutely nothing wrong with personal preference for whatever any individual likes of course.



> I know I missed the boat on the Elchos and many other localities that were popular for a time then disappeared into obscurity. I was living and working overseas for many years, if I was here I would have got them. I would have paid the extra, I have no trouble paying extra for uniqueness.



Where were you? There are plenty of fun critters to be worked with overseas which can't be had in Australia, at least legally or responsibly.


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## scobro (Aug 23, 2019)

Herptology said:


> This is a patternless
> 
> View attachment 327568


That looks like Dr. Evil and Mini Me


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## nick_75 (Aug 26, 2019)

Sdaji said:


> Where were you? There are plenty of fun critters to be worked with overseas which can't be had in Australia, at least legally or responsibly.


I was in the South Island of NZ. Not a great place to move too long term when you're a reptile enthusiast but it had many other things going for it. I enjoyed my time there but was very happy to eventually come home, get licenced and start acquiring snakes again.


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## Sdaji (Aug 26, 2019)

nick_75 said:


> I was in the South Island of NZ. Not a great place to move too long term when you're a reptile enthusiast but it had many other things going for it. I enjoyed my time there but was very happy to eventually come home, get licenced and start acquiring snakes again.



Ah yes, I see. As far as keeping snakes goes, it's right down at the bottom of the list in terms of available options! Once of the few places with less than Australia. Nice day geckoes though!


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## Soxau (Aug 28, 2019)

Finally found a beautiful girl


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