# American snakes in Australia



## jake0476 (Nov 9, 2003)

Just wanted to know how do you go about the licencing of reptiles from other countries as a bloke from sydney asked if i was interested in buying some boas and corn snakes and i was talking to a bloke from a herp club in sydney and he said he has a rainbow boa. What i was wondering does anybody know how do you go about the licencing system on these reptiles and what sort of licence do you need to keep these species in Australia. Truthfully i didnt think these species could be kept in australia unless you had a zoo. Im very confused ...PLease help. :shock:


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## Belinda (Nov 9, 2003)

Holly ****e...DO NOT BUY THEM! THEY ARE ILLEGAL AND YOU WILL BE JAILED! Unless of-course you have a zoo licence....


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## Bendragon (Nov 9, 2003)

Of course, it's not strictly illegal to keep these animals. From memory in 1996 an amnsety was set in place and if you were a good boy or girl and were keeping these illegally they could be made legal, but with no mating,selling or swapping it effectively made them a one owner animal.

Perhaps the Herp society guy has one legally ?


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## saikrett (Nov 9, 2003)

sounds too suss for me


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## python_guy44 (Nov 9, 2003)

Which raises the question. Why a person illegally keeping exotics be going round telling perfectly good strangers. Now anyone in there right mind would be trying to keep that sort of information as secretive as possible.


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## Fuscus (Nov 9, 2003)

Anyone in there right mind would not be trying to keep illeagal animals in the first place. Unfortunatly people kept "importing" animals and even more unfortunatly there is a market for them.


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## africancichlidau (Nov 9, 2003)

Hear Hear Fuscus !


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## NoOne (Nov 10, 2003)

People need to realise that is there alot (and i mean alot) of exotics being bred in Australia. I've meet plenty of people over the years that keep or have kept exotics, their collections are good, clean and disease free. Not all exotics are diseased.
Their no different to us except they like non native reptiles. I have no problems with exotic keepers as long as i'm not involved i can't get in trouble. 

Personally i think it could be licensed successfully but it's more work than npws can handle.
Exotics don't do much for me anyway and i couldn't care less either way, i would love a chameleon though.

Beware of anyone who openly talks about owning exotics, npws can be where you least expect.


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## wattso (Nov 10, 2003)

have a thing for chams and iguanas meself, first exoctic would have to be a land tortise tho....sigh. personally methinks owning exoctics is not for everyone, did anyone read story in tele not long ago about a guy keeping tiger in apartment in new york i think? poor tiger, how unnatural was that, no wonder it was a bit physco.


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## NoOne (Nov 10, 2003)

He also had a large gator.


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## wattso (Nov 10, 2003)

oh yeah, forgot that, wasnt there something about a lion cub too? it amazes me wherepeople get them, even in america.


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## raptor (Nov 10, 2003)

personally I think the whole exotic thing is a bit of a two-edged sword. I cant see a real problem if the animal is being kept by an experienced, responsible owner, as it is going to be healthy & free of disease. On the other hand, unhealthy animals are responsible for things like IBD getting into the country, and if exotics were to escape, who knows what damage they could do to our ecology? Maybe the answer would be an exotic-specific licence with stringent checks/inspections?


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## wattso (Nov 10, 2003)

I reckon it would be ok if they were stringently quarantined/tested then compulsarily sterilised!
no disease no breeding/damage to our ecology . cant for moment think what other problems might be unthought of.


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## NCHERPS (Nov 10, 2003)

I don't think personally that there would be too many issues with exotics coming into the country, I don't see why they should be sterilised or even Quarantined.
Whilst I agree there maybe more risk of disease from Wild Caught snakes from abroad, even then it is minimal.
I think the cautious way to go would be to allow in captive bred exotic's from respected countries and breeders, this way the quality of the animals can be monitored.

Reptiles as you know have been imported into Europe and the USA for many years, I myself imported animals from Malaysia,Europe, Africa and the USA, I never had any major probs with disease, just a few mites, ticks and worms, as you would find on any Australian WC snake.
I have personally not ever had any IBD and have only heard of a very few amount of isolated cases in Europe.
I do think that the greater issue would be to get the Authorites to go along with all the extra paperwork involved in registration etc...
I do also think that the exotic venomous species should be held only by the most experienced and that they should also make provision for the anti-venom to be made available,should the need arise

Having said all that, I am quite happy at the species available to me out here at the moment, well until the rules change, and then I might have a change of heart!

Neil


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## Bendragon (Nov 10, 2003)

Perhaps if it was to happen, only allow it to happen with animals currently held legally on the books as per the amnesty. No importing that way and we all know how many are out there, also gives Zoo's a way to get rid of excess animals


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## zoe (Nov 10, 2003)

i would have thought one of the worst things would be silly people deciding they dont want them anymore and just releasing them into the wild. i guess really strict & regular inspections and hefty fines if your pet mysteriously 'disappears' would be a good way to help prevent that. would encourage people to keep them locked up very securely too lol


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## Alexahnder (Nov 10, 2003)

if they were only available to experienced keepers and the price would probably be up not amny people would release them. HAve you ever heard of anyone releasing a gtp or a woma??


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## wattso (Nov 10, 2003)

someone dumped an adult diamond in a carpark at castle hill about a month ago.


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## Fuscus (Nov 10, 2003)

Trouble with exotics is that if it is an invasive species we wont know until it is an irreversible problem. Or more correctly, a problem we won't do anything about. I would vote for (almost) any polly that would offer a 10 cent bounty per cane toad.


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## ReptileRascals (Nov 10, 2003)

Here here!
I fish the local creek just to cull carp (good fighters though I must say).I also cull exotic species when rescuing for wires.If I was in an area where there was cane toads I would do my part in killing them also...


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## NoOne (Nov 10, 2003)

RR if carp were a good eating fish they would be protected like trout, must agree though theres nothing like a good carp bash  

Australia (especially up north) is such an easy environment for animals to adapt to, many species of exotics could easily live in the tropics, that would be my biggest worry. Cornsnakes, the way they breed they could get out of control quickly.


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## wattso (Nov 10, 2003)

like i said, no hope of that if they are sterile!


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## Fangs (Nov 11, 2003)

Theoretically the problem has been dealt with by NPWS with the last amnesty they gave.
No trading,selling or breeding of any animal declared in that amnesty so in time they will all die out.
The problem is,as has already been touched on is that there are heaps of exotics out there and they aint that expensive either.
From what I have been told also is that another amnesty WONT happen but this doesnt seem to have reduced the availability of these animals.

Comments about disease in particular IBD caught my attention.It is in collections in Australia as well as OPMV from what I have been told from various sources.This being the case it does make you wonder how the hell it got here in the first place doesn't it?
For mine the potential problem of exotic viruses being brought into this country should be enough for anyone who loves or even has an interest in our herps to be dead against exotic herps being let in here for any reason with the exception of zoos etc.Although limiting it to Zoos and the like is still no guarantee of exotic diseases being imported along with the animals.

cheers M......


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## raptor (Nov 11, 2003)

Bendragon said:


> Perhaps if it was to happen, only allow it to happen with animals currently held legally on the books as per the amnesty. No importing that way and we all know how many are out there, also gives Zoo's a way to get rid of excess animals


That seems a sensible & reasonable idea ben, after all, with the amnesty they have given the ok for some people to own exotics. Unless they take that across the board it's a bit like saying person A can own a coastal but person B cant. They would have to have an idea how many are out here, so there is definitely safe breeding stock. For a law to be fair, it has to apply to everyone equally. Mind you, I'm an olive fanatic, so I dont care too much


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## almaron (Nov 11, 2003)

wattso said:


> have a thing for chams and iguanas meself



Funny you should mention that Wattso. I got a three year old iguana yesterday. A girl my wife works with is going back to school and couldn't take back with her. Free to a good home situation. She knew we keep herps, so she was offered to us first. Great personality. Never cared for them much, but she is starting to change my mind. Almost like a reptilian version of a dog. Likes to be scratched on the belly, sleeps with the cats, and stuff. Loads of personality. She is about 4 ft long head to tail and maybe body wise the size of an adult cat. 

Also, my wife's chameleons are growing fast. They aren't nearly as personable as the iguana, but they are pretty cool. I think she needs to handle them more. I'll put up some pictures of both soon.


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## wattso (Nov 11, 2003)

cool Al, love to see some pics mate, lucky you! Always thought chams look like small dinosaurs!
boy I wish I could keep one!


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## Fuscus (Nov 11, 2003)

I've just been to a lecture by the Adeliade Zoo reptile staff and importing came up in the Q&A afterwards. An imported reptile has to be quarrantined for 13 months! Same goes for seized animals. 
Seized animals are only offered to zoos. Because of this and a lack of quarrantine space, most seized animals are refused and subsequently put down. So if the men come and kick down your door and then take away little corny, chances are he is going straight to the snake pit in the sky via the freezer door.


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## wattso (Nov 11, 2003)

shame that read about some land turtles from somewhere which were destroyed by freezing, in raymond hosers smuggled site.


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## Brodie (Nov 11, 2003)

exotics r nice...IMO oz snakes r better...and ppl who keep any fauna illegally are scum


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## wattso (Nov 11, 2003)

Whoa Brodes, put the six guns down mate, dont think any aps people keep illegal fauna!


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## Brodie (Nov 11, 2003)

yea.......but ppl who do are scum


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## wattso (Nov 11, 2003)

Just out of interest I only discovered you could obtain a license and keep herps two years ago! When did the current system [nsw] begin anyway? If its been years ill kick myself! 
Also I see on many American sites, aussie pythons for sale, I assume these are the offspring of animals exported befor the current system? Can people in other countries currently import our wildlife? I even hear of wallabies in cages in japan. :?


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## Fuscus (Nov 12, 2003)

I too had no idea that you could legally kept reptiles in Oz until I came to SA and saw them in shops (Thats a good arguement for reptiles in pet shops, it lets people know that keeping herps is legal). That was two years ago.
As for Aussie populations overseas, some would be decendants from legal exports while some would be smuggled animals or offspring of smuggled animals. Also many Australian animals are also found in Papua-New Gueniea and Indonesia
Same for wallabies with less smuggling. Also wallabies are easy to bred in captivity and there are feral populations overseas (including Scotland). New Zealand has large feral populations and wouldn't be surprised if they export them


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## NCHERPS (Nov 12, 2003)

Wattso.
All Aussie native animals are banned from export, just your farm types are allowed out, that's when people want them! (poor sheep!)

As Fuscus has stated there are illegal smugglings, and also zoo's will export legally to other zoo's in the world, and then they breed them and sell the offspring to private people.

Neil


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## wattso (Nov 12, 2003)

No wonder there is a big black market os for aussie wildlife, ive heard of americans paying thousands for aussie birds! Pity we cant export cane toads etc. Then again there is roo and croc ,emu meat, exported os!


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## NCHERPS (Nov 12, 2003)

Wattso,
I don't think there is a big black market oversea's, well not in Europe or the States anyway, as many Aussie snakes are being bred very successfully, and have done for years, but you will always get te odd idiot that thinks he can make a fast buck by smuggling out a few.

Your right about the birds though, they are harder to breed and there is more of a market for them to be sure, it's silly really, the Oz goverment should do a quota system for export of birds, just certain ones that are really common over here, because from what I understand you get farmer shooting hundreds every year, because they destroy their crops.
Neil


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## almaron (Nov 12, 2003)

I think the black market trade in Aussie wildlife might be a little to greatly exaggerated. Pretty much anything that is available there is also available here. Usually cheaper too. Hard to see how it would be profitable to smuggle something that is readily available for a few hundred bucks. Maybe birds are different, I don't know much about all that. But as far a reptiles, I find it hard to believe. 

Almost all US stock is captive bred from imports decades ago, before the ban. Now I wouldn't doubt it does occasionally happen, but it ain't wide spread. I could see it for very rare, or unavailable species, but it would be very hard to explain how you acquired them, and it would only take one person to report it as suspicious for the US Parks and Wildlife guys to come asking questions. 

Also I would note that just about every Aussie reptile is CITES listed, so even if someone were to smuggle to some other country, then try to import it "legally", it would still catch up to them. If someone can give me an example of an Aussie species that wasn't already here before the ban, then somehow just appeared on the market, I'd be most curious.

Oh yeah, and excess zoo stock does sometimes end up in private collections, but it isn't a common practice. I wish it was.


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## pythonss (Nov 12, 2003)

*exotics*

hi everyone..

as most know my views on the subject i wont bother rehashing whats been discussed on here previous times.

but after watching the thread develop there are a few things that havnt been touched on that are very relevant to the discussion.

If you think there isnt a black market trade for australian reptiles with a good dollar value on overseas markets you either havnt been watching the news of late or have your head burried in the sand ! i mean that in the nicest possible way..lol

Mites, tick and esp worms that might make there way to this contry in or on imported snakes will be of differant species to what naturally occurs in australia. so wont be found on/in any australian wild reptile species. So that brings the question about would australian reptiles have the amunity to be able to deal with the new parrisites ? or in fact would any aus animal capable of being infected with these new parisites be able to deal effectivly with them ?
My opinion is of course not in the beginning. Like we need another introduced pest to add to our growing list.

I.B.D and parimixo have been found in australia ! yes very true.
But lets have a closer look and the indervidual cases before saying how easy it would be to contain.
both dieseases have been found in zoos that have imported animals form other zoos. these facilitys are supose to have the best quarintine procedures yet it is obviously not working. Private collection that got i.b.d and lost all of the animals obtained australian species as surplus from one of these zoos.
To date there are recomended qarintine procedures and time frames yet this is still not offically recignised as being perfect/garinteed
so yet agian we are prepared to risk what we have as native species because we like the look of a animal we have seen in pictures from over seas.

You are right we dont see gtp /womas being relased into the wild as they still hold a high dollar value. and yes most exotics would hold a good value with the origanal animals but the problem would come at a later date. its not the origanal of even the first generation of captive breed exotics that may be released here. Its after people have started triple clutching colubreds like corns that the value of the animal then becomes less that the price to maintain it , thats when the releases happen.
womas and gtps wont and never will breed at that rate so comparing the two with exotics is very practical. compare them to a bearded dragon that tripple clutches is closer to the point. now try and tell me that bearded dragons dont get released into the wild.

anyway there are many more things that could be discussed on the topic and we are really only scratching the surphase

cheers paul.


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## wattso (Nov 12, 2003)

Um..what i meant befor about black market, i was specifically referring to our birds, we see attemps to smuggle them out often, usually inside cylnders like tiolet rolls etc, with that in mind, there must be a market, why risk huge fines and jail for something you could buy os for a few hundred as Al says? About farmers shooting them, good point, you'd think a controlled release [export] of those considered pest here, but worth trying to smuggle out to some, would solve 2 probs in one. Damper on the smuggling, farmers rid of pest, jobs created for licensed catchers etc. I was just assuming the black market inamwerica, my apologies, however im sure many other countries do have one. A japanese guy tryed to smuggle out 80 rare xmas island beetles recently. As for reptiles i dont know, i was just wondering how american sites advertise cheap aussie snakes. Thanks for the info~Dan

p.s. Paul, did you get my pm?


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## NCHERPS (Nov 12, 2003)

Question for all: I have seen exotic birds for sale over here, like Macaws, Amazon, and African grey parrots, are you allowed to breed these in Australia?? Although they are expensive you can acquire them legally.
I know that they must have been bred here and not imported, so Is there a double standard here between exotic birds and Reptiles.

Neil


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## NoOne (Nov 12, 2003)

Black market trading out of Australia is a problem, i can think of 3 shipments being found in the last month or so.
Any native animal coming out of Aus (with the exception of zoo trades) is black market trading, doesn't matter where it ends up.
Thats what really gets to me, people taking as much out of the wild as they want and trying to send into an alreay flooded market. They should lock people like that up and throw away the key.


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## snakehunter (Nov 13, 2003)

personally, I wouldnt be heart-broken if exotics are never allowed over here, aussie herps are just as good and diverse


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## almaron (Nov 13, 2003)

Ok guys. Apparently black market reptile smuggling is a rampant problem. I guess it never gets reported here, but obviously would be more of a local story. So, my question is this. What reptile species specifically are commonly smuggled, and where is they trying to be smuggled to?


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## Fuscus (Nov 13, 2003)

Number of points.
1/ There is a double standard in that exotic birds may be kept , bred and sold (and I think there is very restrictive importing) while exotic reptiles may only be kept. I think there is less restrictions on exotic birds than natives. This is dispite the fact that a number of species kept have established feral populations, including mannikins, java sparrows and Monk Parrots (Quakkers). In fact Quakkers are one of the most invasive species having large feral populations in both Europe and America. Quakkers even have a large population in Amsterdam.
2/ There is also a double standard on feral populations too, we tolerate the sparrow without a complaint dispite the fact that has done as much damage as the cane toad. What birds would be hanging around our homes if we haddn't introduced the sparrow?
3/ We can't export the cane toad, the same bozos who introduced it to Queensland also introduced it to Hawaii and Florida with the same results. I have seen them on special at American herps sites 2 for $5 and get one free. The Americans call the cane toad the Marine toad.
4/ Smuggling will be attempted where ever the is an price difference that makes the effort worth while. That is why Galahs are popular, $50 here and upto $1000 overseas (Galahs are called rose-breasted cockatoos in America).
5/ My impression is that Knob-tailed Geckos seem to be popular target for smuggling. I'm judging that by the news reports I have seen


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## NCHERPS (Nov 13, 2003)

Mark,
Good points and I don't think those Galah's in Canberra will ever do anything about it either!

Neil


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## wattso (Nov 13, 2003)

Those galahs in canberra should be exported...to iraq! and not at the taxpayers expense either! lol


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## NoOne (Nov 13, 2003)

Shinglebacks seem to be targeted alot, so as most pythons and geckos


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