# Do you eat Meat or Dairy - if so why?



## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Hi Guys,

I am interested to know who eats Meat & Dairy & if so what is your reasoning for consuming:

Habit
Tradition
Convenience
Taste
'Health'
Other - please advise

Have you ever thought about changing your diet & removing all animal products?


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## Wild~Touch (Dec 2, 2013)

Hehehe, I've thought about the above often ...BUT... 

I cannot live without the taste of cheese & bacon & pork chops and roast pork.

I like veggies and salads and eat heaps

Eggs make me puke

Don't enjoy sheep meat  

Beef is not essential for my survival 

Should add that I will not ever never ever never eat a dead bird (poultry).....KFC included .... it has the same appeal as a road killed magpie !

Fussy little lizard I am


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## Trimeresurus (Dec 2, 2013)

Meat just tastes too god damn good to pass up.

I love milk too.


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## littlemay (Dec 2, 2013)

I only really eat white meat, for some reason i tend to get quite sick whenever i eat red meat. I'm more tolerant with dairy, but if i have too much of it i really don't feel well. Mostly my diet is fruit/veg/white meat, simply because i find it works best for me!


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## thomasssss (Dec 2, 2013)

vegans :facepalm: 

in answer to your question though , no ive never considered it and probably never will


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## Umbral (Dec 2, 2013)

I love the taste of meat, red, white or dark I love it all. Mmm then there's the cured meats! I could go on all day. 

As for dairy I love drinking milk, eating cheese, yogurt... Well almost any dairy products.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

I have been a meat/dairy-eater all my life up until 6 months ago.
I made a decision to cut out Meat & Milk which I believe has changed my life so much for the better & it got me thinking why are we actually eating it?

I am not starting this thread to sling off or point the finger at people that do infact eat meat but I am truly curious as to what motivates people to eat it?
What is so good about it?

I must agree the taste of Bacon is hard to resist, & I have to admit I do miss it slightly along with chicken but do the other meats really even taste that good or is it the sauce thats covering it?

The more I look into it the more I learn how bad both meat & dairy is for our health & for me the cruelty that is involved is difficult to overlook.

I have to say I LOVE my cheese & Yogurt , especially cheese, but after a speech I watched on the weekend it has me thinking alot about the amount of dairy I consume & what it is doing to my health.
I am keen to now try to eliminate or at least cut down on my dairy intake too.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

I love all foods and have never thought about changing my diet and never will. This is Australia after all and if you don't enjoy meat on a BBQ I have to wonder....


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## Umbral (Dec 2, 2013)

You should have another poll to see who eats what check all the boxes of food types you eat that could be interesting.

The smell of cooking bacon, frying onions or garlic and raisin toast make me feel hungry no matter how much I've had to eat.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> I love all foods and have never thought about changing my diet and never will. This is Australia after all and if you don't enjoy meat on a BBQ I have to wonder....



I am sorry but what a stupid comment to make Snowman!
So the fact that I no longer eat meat now questions whether or not it makes me a True Australian?

One of the things I dont understand about meat heads is they feel the need to judge others for being different to them.
I am not trying to judge you, I am trying to understand you!


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## littlemay (Dec 2, 2013)

Aw, i think Snowman might have just been joking around a bit


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

littlemay said:


> Aw, i think Snowman might have just been joking around a bit


Exactly!
Just joking, people should never care about others opinions. I cant stand those that get offended so easily. I will never care what someone thinks about what I do or how I live.
Who cares if I eat meat? Who cares if you don't.? Live and let live....

And in answer to your question yes, there are some Australian traditions. One of those is a BBQ and beer with mates. I don't make the traditions, just honour them.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Sorry, I failed to see the funny side of your joke.
But dont misunderstand me, I am not worried & I don't particularly 'care' what people think of how I live.
I am happy with my choices 

& I LOVE BBQ's, I just enjoy mine without the flesh


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

As the old song goes:

When the summer sun is shining on Australia's happy land
Round countless fires, in strange attire in many solemn bands
of glum Australians watching as the lunch goes up in flames
By the smoke and the smell you can plainly tell, that it's barby time again


When the steaks are burning fiercely, when the smoke gets in your eyes
When the sausges taste like fried toothpaste and your driven mad with flies
It's a national institution, it's the aussie thing to do
So come along mate and grab your plate, let's have a barbecue!


The Scots eat lots of haggis, the French eat snails and frogs
The Greeks throw kakis on their mousakis, and the Chinese love hot dogs
The Welshmen love to have a leek, the Irish like thier stew
But you just can't beat that half-cooked meat at an Aussie barbeque


When the steaks are burning fiercely, when the smoke gets in your eyes
When the sausges taste like fried toothpaste and your driven mad with flies
It's a national institution, it's the aussie thing to do
So come along mate and grab your plate, let's have a barbecue.


There's flies stuck to the margarine, the bread has gone rock hard
The kids are fighting and the mossies are biting, who forgot the Aerogard?
There's bull ants in the eskie, and the beer is running out
And what you saw in Mum's cole slaw, you just don't think about


When the steaks are burning fiercely, when the smoke gets in your eyes
When the sausges taste like fried toothpaste and your driven mad with flies
It's a national institution, it's the aussie
So come on mate and grab your plate, let's have a barbecue.


And when the barby's over and your homeward way you wend
With a funny tummy on the family dummy, many lonely hours you'll spend
You might find yourself reflecting, like many often do
Come rain or shine that's the bloody last time that you'll have a barbecue!


When the steaks are burning fiercely, when the smoke gets in your eyes
When the sausges taste like fried toothpaste and your driven mad with flies
It's a national institution, it's ausssie thing to do
So come on mate and grab your plate, let's have a barbeque


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## Lawra (Dec 2, 2013)

Dairy makes me sick, so do most red meats. 

In saying that, I still eat everything because it tastes good. 

Everything in moderation


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## jack (Dec 2, 2013)

Why is health in inverted commas?


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## Ramsayi (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Sorry, I failed to see the funny side of your joke.



It is a well know fact that lack of meat in a diet affects your sense of humour 

Sorry Kelly couldn't resist.BTW does the other half follow the same diet?

What benefits are you experiencing following your new eating habits?


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Seems 'Taste' is the winner so far....
I wonder how many people think the taste outways the possible heath problems?


For anyone that may be interested I thoroughly recommend watching the following: 

Forks over Knives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtnlwqEii2I

Food Matters:
http://www.foodmatters.tv/free

Food Inc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUNuKs_Qyqg

Best Speech You Will Ever Hear:
http://adaptt.org/life-changing-speech.html

Fat, sick & nearly dead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XDSpuMIMPs

I would be interested in hearing peoples views after watching even 1 of these docos.
I truly believe watching these docos will change your life.
If you dont want to watch all of them do yourself a favour & at least watch 1.


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## JrFear (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> One of the things I dont understand about meat heads is they feel the need to judge others for being different to them.



Its funny you say that, all the vegans, vegetarian & pescetarians i know try to convert me and preach to me how bad meat is and how its cruel etc etc! I find them worse than the bible bashers who ram it down your throat!

I dont see how meat is bad for you ether, the people i know on these diets all take supplements for the vitamins and minerals they now lack from not eating meat!


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Whilst those links have no actually recognised studies. The CSIRO is a recognised organisation. 

Lean meat - consumption and production
Lean red meat is not only a good source of protein and energy, but also has benefits in avoiding heart disease.


The facts on eating red meat | CSIRO


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## Ramsayi (Dec 2, 2013)

If you could do just one thing to improve your overall wellbeing it would be to cut sugar from your diet as much as possible.Also try to limit the amount of processed food you eat.Apart from that everything in moderation seems fine to me.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

JrFear said:


> Its funny you say that, all the vegans, vegetarian & pescetarians i know try to convert me and preach to me how bad meat is and how its cruel etc etc! I find them worse than the bible bashers who ram it down your throat!


Agreed. The above YouTube clips are a classic example of them preaching and trying to force others to live like them. Why can't people just let others do as they wish. No need to get on a high horse and try and make people eat how you do. No need to make people believe the things you do. Just be and lets others be


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## Lawra (Dec 2, 2013)

CSIRO have the best cookbooks! Healthy delicious food. 

Healthy = balanced and in moderation.

Humans are omnivores.


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## OldestMagician (Dec 2, 2013)

I like meat, meat is cheaper and tastier than alternatives, we are designed to eat some meat as a species etc etc. 

I did it for a week when I was 16 because my missus at the time was a vegetarian but then I fancied a pasty so gave up. 

My little sister was vegetarian for about 4 years just because she didn't like the taste of meat

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk


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## JrFear (Dec 2, 2013)

The best diet i reckon which ive been doing for 3 year is the Paleo or cave man diet!
Meat, fish, eggs, fruit, veg, honey! so pretty much any thing natural! No dairy, grains, legumes, processed food, soft drink etc!


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

The reason I put health in inverted commas is because eating meat is far from a healthy choice but whenever people ask me about being vegetarian their first question is about my health & Protein & Iron intake etc, some people think meat is needed to be healthy when it couldnt be further from the truth.

Ha ha very funny Mark 
Yes Damian also follows the same diet & says he will never look back.

Some of the benefits include: 

Having alot more energy & not feeling tired for no reason.
Not feeling like needing a nap especially after eating - Now after a meal I feel great & full of energy.

Clearer head & Better moods

Reduced inflammation.

No more stomach upsets


They are the main things I have noticed.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html?_r=0


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Sorry for some reason my multi quote isnt working.


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## Trimeresurus (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko, I don't know about others but I eat lots of meat and don't suffer from any of that, so I hope you're only speaking individually on that one.

Also I know that hunting/fishing ect is a complete different subject and isn't directly tied to eating meat, but I enjoy these activities same as many others do, and when you can eat what you catch it makes it even better.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

You have to realise that in the history of man. There has never been a vegan society. We have evolved as hunters and gatherers. That means we are omnivores.
Good luck feeding your pythons and geckos on fruit, veg and grains. You can't change they way animals have evolved and that includes humans. 
Meat is healthy as shown by CSIRO. It should be taken in moderation as with all natural foods.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Agreed. The above YouTube clips are a classic example of them preaching and trying to force others to live like them. Why can't people just let others do as they wish. No need to get on a high horse and try and make people eat how you do. No need to make people believe the things you do. Just be and lets others be



If people understand the health problems & still want to eat meat because it tastes good then that is obviously up to them, I am not trying to 'force' it onto anyone.
I am just trying to understand what peoples motivation for eating it is & also trying to educate anyone that is interested & may not know the heath problems associated with eating it.



Lawra said:


> CSIRO have the best cookbooks! Healthy delicious food.
> 
> Healthy = balanced and in moderation.
> 
> Humans are omnivores.


I was also educated to think the same thing, I have always believed we are Omnivores too.
But why? what makes us Omnivores? because we choose to eat meat or because we are suppose to eat it?
Our bodies are not designed like any other omnivores on this planet.




Ramsayi said:


> If you could do just one thing to improve your overall wellbeing it would be to cut sugar from your diet as much as possible.Also try to limit the amount of processed food you eat.Apart from that everything in moderation seems fine to me.


Couldnt agree more about sugar & processed foods they are huge culprits & should be avoided as much as possible.


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## Wing_Nut (Dec 2, 2013)

Red meat played a hugely important part in human evolution, without it we would not exist as we do. As a result of this, the human body has evolved to digest meat. Our digestive track simply is not herbivorous. Which is why I eat red meat. Having said that, not all red meat is created equal. Mass produced, grain fed, intensively farmed meat animals lack a lot of trace nutrients and minerals that are integral to our health. Red meat is also rich in important nutrients like Creatine and Carnosine. Non-meat eaters are often deficient in these nutrients, which can have negative effects on various aspects of health, including muscle and brain function. The effects of red meat on human health have been intensely studied, it is crucial to distinguish between processed and unprocessed meat, because the two can have vastly different effects (EPIC did a very large observational study that includes 448,568 individuals). I noticed a change in my health once I switched from intensively farmed red meat to wild meat or at the very least organic grass fed meat. The greatest health issues caused by the consumption of red meat stem greatly from how it is cooked (frying, grilling, char grilling can cause the formation of harmful compounds) and almost all health issues stem from this.

In support of this, traditional populations like the Inuit and Masai have eaten lots of meat (all wild game), much more than the average Westerner, but remain in excellent health and have so for countless generations. Red meat (as a food stuff) simple does not cause any health issues and there is no scientific evidence that would suggest otherwise.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> If people understand the health problems & still want to eat meat because it tastes good then that is obviously up to them, I am not trying to 'force' it onto anyone.
> I am just trying to understand what peoples motivation for eating it is & also trying to educate anyone that is interested & may not know the heath problems associated with eating it.
> .



There are NO health problems. How do you explain my grandmother who lives on her own and functions very well at 101 years old. She eats meat everyday. Her husband my grandfather also a meat eater died at 96 also very healthy, but had aspestosis.
I eat meat and have no health issues. 
Show me evidence of one human culture that thrived without meat? You obviously do not believe in evolution. Because man has evolved eating meat. That is a fact.


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## princessparrot (Dec 2, 2013)

I stopped eating meat when I found out it was the actual animal, I think I was about 6-7 at the time. I stopped eating eggs quite awhile ago, and I'm still working on the dairy. I don't drink/use milk when I have the option, though I'm having trouble finding an alternative(soy milk make me feel sick, especially in coffee:shock and I don't eat a lot of cheese like chunks of it, but I still feel the need to add it to things(pasta, pizza) but I try to avoid it. I haven't had any yoghurt for awhile either. But there is one dairy containing product I could never give up-ICE CREAM and cheese cake...

vegan guys? What do you do when it comes to eggs and milk that you can't really avoid like bread and stuff? Maybe ad cake to that aswell:lol:



If theres anything I miss it twiggy stick!!!


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## JrFear (Dec 2, 2013)

Why dont people eat eggs? its a by product that will just be wasted if we didnt use them!
Obviously caged hens etc are a no no! But free ranged or even better the eggs you get from your own chickens at home are amazing!


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## RedFox (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko can i vote for all of the above? And to answer the question I have considered going vegetarian, ( not vegan because I love cheese) but I'm not sure I ever could. 

Habit and convenience- I really enjoy preparing and cooking meat. Steak and salad is my equivelant of fast food. Quick and easy to cook (And only have a pan and a couple of plates to clean up which is a bonus). I'm not all that mouch of a sweet tooth so sometimes have friut and cheese and crackers for dessert. 

Tradition- My Dad is a scotman's so having a big cooked breakfast without black pudding, bacon, eggs and sausages would just seem plain wrong. Not having lamb on Australia day and prawns and seafood on christmas day would seem really strange to me.

Taste- Taste would be a fairly big factor. Lamb is my favourite and I have some sort of seafood once or twice a week. I absolutely love cheese as well. I'm not sure about sauces making meat taste good as I don't tend to put sauce on my meat. Steak tastes best to me when it is just seasoned and oiled. And lamb with some fresh herbs. 

Health- Silverbeet and beef are good ways to boost iron. I don't eat meat with every meal but it does have benefits in moderation.


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## BigDaddyO (Dec 2, 2013)

Recent studies have show that meat consumption causes less animal cruelty than the alternative equivalent of grain production. Crop rotation, burning off, water diversion, deforestationand other processes used in grain production do more damage and damage more animals/ecosystems than the admittedly immoral practices meat industries. If we replied totally on grain production for food we would require far more of the space to appropiated for food production. 
Admittedly animal cruelty in modern meat practice is poor and should be improved. But the vegetarian alternative is no better.


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## Brownbird (Dec 2, 2013)

Some inconsistencies here Gecko. You say: "I am not starting this thread to sling off or point the finger at people that do infact eat meat" and "I am not trying to judge you, I am trying to understand you!"
But then this: " The more I look into it the more I learn how bad both meat & dairy is for our health & for me the cruelty that is involved is difficult to overlook." and "have you ever considered changing your diet"

Surely you can see how this comes accross as sounding superior and judgmental?


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## JrFear (Dec 2, 2013)

What are these health problems that eating meat and dairy cause?


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> There are NO health problems. How do you explain my grandmother who lives on her own and functions very well at 101 years old. She eats meat everyday. Her husband my grandfather also a meat eater died at 96 also very healthy, but had aspestosis.
> I eat meat and have no health issues.
> Show me evidence of one human culture that thrived without meat? You obviously do not believe in evolution. Because man has evolved eating meat. That is a fact.



That is a huge statement to make & is completely inaccurate.
What do you mean there are no health problems?
What about the leading causes of deaths these days?
Things like cancer & heart disease?
I am not saying meat & dairy are the sole cause of these diseases but they certainly make their fair contribution.
& I didnt say all ppl that consume animal products die young or wont reach a certain age.





princessparrot said:


> I stopped eating meat when I found out it was the actual animal, I think I was about 6-7 at the time. I stopped eating eggs quite awhile ago, and I'm still working on the dairy. I don't drink/use milk when I have the option, though I'm having trouble finding an alternative(soy milk make me feel sick, especially in coffee:shock and I don't eat a lot of cheese like chunks of it, but I still feel the need to add it to things(pasta, pizza) but I try to avoid it. I haven't had any yoghurt for awhile either. But there is one dairy containing product I could never give up-ICE CREAM and cheese cake...
> 
> vegan guys? What do you do when it comes to eggs and milk that you can't really avoid like bread and stuff? Maybe ad cake to that aswell:lol:
> 
> If theres anything I miss it twiggy stick!!!



The Vegan side of things is all still new to me Princessparrot but I would definitely recommend checking out this website:
adaptt.org

I cant stand soymilk either, I have found almond milk is not too bad in smoothies etc but tastes like rubbish on cereal & in tea etc.
Have you tried Coconut milk? it is delicious! & much nicer than normal milk or the alternatives.
I certainly recommend it!



BigDaddyO said:


> Recent studies have show that meat consumption causes less animal cruelty than the alternative equivalent of grain production. Crop rotation, burning off, water diversion, deforestationand other processes used in grain production do more damage and damage more animals/ecosystems than the admittedly immoral practices meat industries. If we replied totally on grain production for food we would require far more of the space to appropiated for food production.
> Admittedly animal cruelty in modern meat practice is poor and should be improved. But the vegetarian alternative is no better.



Do you have links for these studies? I am interested but very skeptical.






Snowman said:


> Whilst those links have no actually recognised studies. The CSIRO is a recognised organisation.
> 
> Lean meat - consumption and production
> Lean red meat is not only a good source of protein and energy, but also has benefits in avoiding heart disease.
> ...


I am curious which ones you have watched?
There are plenty of studies available.
& there are many sources of protein and energy that are not detrimental to your health.




Snowman said:


> You have to realise that in the history of man. There has never been a vegan society. We have evolved as hunters and gatherers. That means we are omnivores.
> Good luck feeding your pythons and geckos on fruit, veg and grains. You can't change they way animals have evolved and that includes humans.
> Meat is healthy as shown by CSIRO. It should be taken in moderation as with all natural foods.



The fact we have done it for so long doesnt make it any better for us.
Times are changing & more people are becoming aware.

I didnt say that I was going to try to convert my reptiles or other pets to an unnatural diet,
They are Omnivores & Carnivores - obviously I will feed my pets what ever is required of their diet for them to be healthy.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> That is a huge statement to make & is completely inaccurate.
> What do you mean there are no health problems?
> What about the leading causes of deaths these days?
> Things like cancer & heart disease?
> I am not saying meat & dairy are the sole cause of these diseases but they certainly make their fair contribution.



Really you are linking meat to cancer? That's a break through discovery as science has not made any such link.
Also the CSIRO have proven that meat reduces the risk of heart disease (not cause it as you have erroneously suggested, please see > The facts on eating red meat | CSIRO

I feel like I'm talking to a scientologist and as such wont continue to try and educate you as to what is real and what is not. If you cant understand how species evolve around certain food sources then I doubt you will ever grasp the concept of how bad raising a child without meat is. 
You have made some blanket statements that make us question your motives and education or lack there of? Don't concern yourself with what others do, I assure you my health is very good on a balanced diet that includes meat. As is that of my ancestors when you consider that they live well into their 90's and more. I'll always go by studies by the likes of the CSIRO over some scaremongering animal rights groups like the ones on youtube. But raised by scientists that's just how I am and view the world. 

This is interesting:

WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty.
This particular calamity — at least the third such conviction of vegan parents in four years — may be largely due to ignorance. But it should prompt frank discussion about nutrition.

I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants.
Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run.
Protein deficiency is one danger of a vegan diet for babies. Nutritionists used to speak of proteins as “first class” (from meat, fish, eggs and milk) and “second class” (from plants), but today this is considered denigrating to vegetarians.
The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant proteins, which are inferior in quantity and quality — even soy. 
A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage.
Responsible vegan parents know that breast milk is ideal. It contains many necessary components, including cholesterol (which babies use to make nerve cells) and countless immune and growth factors. When breastfeeding isn’t possible, soy milk and fruit juice, even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a quality infant formula.
Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development. 
A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers, who need plenty of protein and calcium. Too often, vegans turn to soy, which actually inhibits growth and reduces absorption of protein and minerals. That’s why health officials in Britain, Canada and other countries express caution about soy for babies. (Not here, though — perhaps because our farm policy is so soy-friendly.)
Historically, diet honored tradition: we ate the foods that our mothers, and their mothers, ate. Now, your neighbor or sibling may be a meat-eater or vegetarian, may ferment his foods or eat them raw. This fragmentation of the American menu reflects admirable diversity and tolerance, but food is more important than fashion. Though it’s not politically correct to say so, all diets are not created equal. 
An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the precious things they need to live and grow.
Nina Planck is the author of “Real Food: What to Eat and Why.”


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Brownbird said:


> Some inconsistencies here Gecko. You say: "I am not starting this thread to sling off or point the finger at people that do infact eat meat" and "I am not trying to judge you, I am trying to understand you!"
> But then this: " The more I look into it the more I learn how bad both meat & dairy is for our health & for me the cruelty that is involved is difficult to overlook." and "have you ever considered changing your diet"
> 
> Surely you can see how this comes accross as sounding superior and judgmental?




Brownbird,

I am certainly not trying to come across as superior or judgemental & dont believe that I have been.
As mentioned I have been a meat-eater my whole life until recently & I still eat Dairy, so it would be a little hypocritical of me to be judgmental.

What people eat is their business & is there own personal choice.
I am not forcing anyone to tell me their opinion & I am certainly not forcing anyone to take part in this thread if they don't want to.
I certainly wouldnt expect anyone to be offended by my opinion or the fact I have started a poll to try to understand peoples reasons for eating meat/dairy.


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## littlemay (Dec 2, 2013)

I think when it comes to health issues and meat consumption it is more a matter of _the way_ in which we are consuming such foods, rather than the foods themselves.

I find it hard to believe that a small serving of unprocessed red and/or white meat a couple of times a week, as part of a balanced diet with fruit, veg, legumes, dairy etc. is going to hurt you.

However for many people this is not the way that red meat is consumed, rather it is eaten in excess (often many times a standard serve) amounts almost every day. Further to this, the meat being consumed has been processed, treated with preservatives, washed in ammonia etc. Not to mention that the animal itself may have been fed a diet that it is not designed to eat and digest (i.e. corn), inevitably affecting the nutritional value of the meat.

Now this type of diet i can definitely see causing health issues. However it is vastly different to incorporating meat as part of a balanced diet.

It is an important distinction, imo.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> The fact we have done it for so long doesnt make it any better for us.
> Times are changing & more people are becoming aware.



The fact we have done it for so long is because that is how we have evolved. We need it to thrive or at least to grow into adults.

- - - Updated - - -



Gecko :) said:


> Brownbird,
> 
> I am certainly not trying to come across as superior or judgemental & dont believe that I have been.
> As mentioned I have been a meat-eater my whole life until recently & I still eat Dairy, so it would be a little hypocritical of me to be judgmental.
> ...



You have to understand that people eat meat to be healthy. Though you may believe the opposite, the science is there to back the fact that meat in moderation (like all foods) is good for us. If you want us to give you the agency to believe meat is bad for you. You have to allow others to believe that meat is good for them. It's all part of accepting people for who they are. Anti meat has been around what 100 years? less? While man has been living off meat for how long? 200,000 years of meat eating....


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## andynic07 (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> That is a huge statement to make & is completely inaccurate.
> What do you mean there are no health problems?
> What about the leading causes of deaths these days?
> Things like cancer & heart disease?
> I am not saying meat & dairy are the sole cause of these diseases but they certainly make their fair contribution.


Can you please show me the study that links meat consumption to cancer, if you do not have anything to prove this fact then I suggest you take down that ridiculous statement.


----------



## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Can you please show me the study that links meat consumption to cancer, if you do not have anything to prove this fact then I suggest you take down that ridiculous statement.


I think the statement needs to remain. It's statements like that, that we use to consider the credibility and level of knowledge a poster has.


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## saximus (Dec 2, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Can you please show me the study that links meat consumption to cancer, if you do not have anything to prove this fact then I suggest you take down that ridiculous statement.



Full disclosure - I'm a meat-eater but in answer to this specific point have a look here: Position statement - Meat and cancer prevention - National Cancer Prevention Policy

"Major cancer prevention reports have stated that there is convincing evidence that red and processed meat increase the risk of bowel cancer."

Granted, everything these days seems to cause cancer but the scientific link is there.


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## princessparrot (Dec 2, 2013)

littlemay said:


> I think when it comes to health issues and meat consumption it is more a matter of _the way_ in which we are consuming such foods, rather than the foods themselves.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that a small serving of unprocessed red and/or white meat a couple of times a week, as part of a balanced diet with fruit, veg, legumes, dairy etc. is going to hurt you.
> 
> ...


i do agree with you on that.

on average my da eats about 3steaks or 5 sausages a day! No wonder we have a good history of cancer and diabetes in our family!


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

saximus said:


> Full disclosure - I'm a meat-eater but in answer to this specific point have a look here: Position statement - Meat and cancer prevention - National Cancer Prevention Policy
> 
> "Major cancer prevention reports have stated that there is convincing evidence that red and processed meat increase the risk of bowel cancer."
> 
> Granted, everything these days seems to cause cancer but the scientific link is there.


Just to clarify. You do understand the difference to 'cause' and 'risk' ? The OP stated it as a cause, even cancer council doesn't go as far as calling it a cause. It's not surprising its a risk, and should be eaten in moderation IMO. No doubt all the people who got cancer also drank water at one time in their lives.

- - - Updated - - -

Despite the concerns about meat and cancer, Cancer Council recognises that lean red meat is an important contributor to dietary iron, zinc, vitamin B12 and protein in the Australian diet.


Cancer Council recommends:
moderate consumption of unprocessed lean red meat. A moderate amount of meat is 65–100 g of cooked red meat, 3–4 times a week;
limiting or avoiding processed meats such as sausages, frankfurts, salami, bacon and ham, which are high in fat and salt;
limiting consumption of burnt or charred meat; and
choosing lean cuts of meat and chicken, and eating more fish and plenty of plant based foods such as fruit, vegetables and wholegrain cereals.


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## Shaggydog (Dec 2, 2013)

Some people do have to eat meat for "Health" reasons. I was vegetarian for 2 months after watching the documentary Earthlings, ended up losing to much weight so I had to start eating chicken every 2nd/3rd night again. I'm 22 and only weigh 41 kg, when I cut out meat than dropped to 37kg even with daily nuts, legumes and a protein supplement. 

So some people do have to eat meat for weight/ health reasons


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman, 
Yes, I am saying animal protein is linked to cancer, this has been proven & there is plenty of evidence there if your interested.

I did ask you if you have watched any of the links I attached earlier but clearly you haven't otherwise you wouldnt bother wasting our time with half of your statements.

The links I have posted are very educational & are full of factual evidence & studies proving this on many occasions, they are not 'crazy activists', some of them are Scientists, Doctors, nutritionists etc, dont you think these people would know a little more about what is good for us? I think they may know a little more than you , or I or any Cave man for that matter.

Really? are you linking being vegetarian/vegan to neglecting children?
Babies need their mothers milk, that is the only kind of milk they need.
There is no risk in raising a child without meat or dairy , there are countless sucessful examples of that & I , like yourself am not interested in trying to educate you, you have clearly made up your mind & are comfortable with that, I am not sure why you feel the need to continue to try to 'educate me' I havent asked you to try to educate me on anything.
I have been looking into this long enough not to need your help with this whatsoever.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Really? are you linking being vegetarian/vegan to neglecting children?
> Babies need their mothers milk, that is the only kind of milk they need.
> There is no risk in raising a child without meat or dairy ,



Yes that is why people have been sent to jail over it... Its FACT.

Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development. 
A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers

I do hope you have already had children. I for one would hate to look at my children if they suffered somehow from a choice I made that affected their development.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Can you please show me the study that links meat consumption to cancer, if you do not have anything to prove this fact then I suggest you take down that ridiculous statement.



Did you see the Documentaries I posted earlier?
All very informative, life changing & worth watching.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Did you see the Documentaries I posted earlier?
> All very informative, life changing & worth watching.



I watched a few. But they didn't show any real evidence. I can show you a doco on big foot and that he exists.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Yes that is why people have been sent to jail over it... Its FACT.



I am not denying that it hasnt happened , but really , what is your point?
Obviously there are right & wrong ways of doing things.
Obviously your body needs certain vitamins, minerals & nutrients to survive, but if you are telling me you cant get them elsewhere other then meat then I really can't be bothered wasting more time entertaining your comments.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I am not denying that it hasnt happened , but really , what is your point?
> Obviously there are right & wrong ways of doing things.
> Obviously your body needs certain vitamins, minerals & nutrients to survive, but if you are telling me you cant get them elsewhere other then meat then I really can't be bothered wasting more time entertaining your comments.


Okay tell be how you get B12 from anything other than meat?

A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage


----------



## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Yes that is why people have been sent to jail over it... Its FACT.
> 
> Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development.
> A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers
> ...





Snowman said:


> I watched a few. But they didn't show any real evidence. I can show you a doco on big foot and that he exists.



Which ones have you watched?
How many studies do you want!?
What kind of evidence do you want?


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Which ones have you watched?
> How many studies do you want!?
> What kind of evidence do you want?



Show me a study that shows vegan breast milk contains enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3


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## princessparrot (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Really? are you linking being vegetarian/vegan to neglecting children?
> Babies need their mothers milk, that is the only kind of milk they need.
> There is no risk in raising a child without meat or dairy , there are countless sucessful examples of that & I , like yourself am not interested in trying to educate you, you have clearly made up your mind & are comfortable with that, I am not sure why you feel the need to continue to try to 'educate me' I havent asked you to try to educate me on anything.
> I have been looking into this long enough not to need your help with this whatsoever.


Vegetarian Meals for Toddlers | Veg Coba
Meat: Not Suitable for Children | Vegetarian
Eat the Baby | Veg Coba


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

princessparrot said:


> Vegetarian Meals for Toddlers | Veg Coba
> Meat: Not Suitable for Children | Vegetarian
> Eat the Baby | Veg Coba
> View attachment 301592


Yep that's the sort of garbage that the people sent to prison fell for too.

- - - Updated - - -

The claim that vegetarians have lower rates of cancer compared to nonvegetarians has been squarely contradicted by a 1994 study comparing vegetarians with the general population.[SUP]14[/SUP] Researchers found that although vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists have the same or slightly lower cancer rates for some sites, for example 91 percent instead of 100 percent for breast cancer, the rates for numerous other cancers are much higher than the general US population standard, especially cancers of the reproductive tract. SDA females had more Hodgkins disease (131 percent), more brain cancer (118 percent), more malignant melanoma (171 percent), more uterine cancer (191 percent), more cervical cancer (180 percent) and more ovarian cancer (129 percent) on average.
According to scientists at the Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, “Studies of cancer have not shown clear differences in cancer rates between vegetarians and non vegetarians.”[SUP]15[/SUP]


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## Wing_Nut (Dec 2, 2013)

There are many observational studies showing that red meat consumption is associated with an increased risk of cancer.

A recurrent problem in these studies is that they seem to pool together processed meat and unprocessed red meat. This gives a very slanted outcome to the results. 

Meta-analyses where researchers analyze data from many studies show that the increased risk of colorectal cancer is very low. One meta-analysis found a weak effect for men, but no effect for women.

Most other studies show that it may not be the meat itself that is contributing to the increased risk, but harmful compounds that form when the meat is cooked.

When you look closely, pretty much all the studies that apparently “prove” that red meat causes harm are so-called observational studies. These types of studies can only demonstrate correlation, that two variables are associated.

One of the main problems with such studies is that they are plagued by various confounding factors. For example, people who eat red meat (and everyone “knows” that red meat is bad, right?) are less health conscious and more likely to smoke, drink excessively, eat more sugar, exercise less, etc.

The people who are health conscious behave very differently than people who are not and it is impossible to correct for all of these factors.

The trouble with almost all research conducted in this area is that it is almost inevitable biased based on preconceived outcomes based on who is funding said research.

The reality is, animal protein can increase the IGF-1 protein level in your body. The IGF signaling pathway has a pathogenic role in cancer. Studies have shown that increased levels of IGF lead to increased growth of existing cancer cells. This however does not cause cancer, but has been sensationalised and used by pro-vegan studies to promote this incorrect point of view.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

You may not ever have any children if you follow a vegan diet, and in case you do, you will be condemning your kids to a life of poor health and misery. Here’s what Dutch researcher P C Dagnelie has to say about the risks of a vegetarian diet: “ A vegan diet. . . leads to strongly increased risk of deficiencies of vitamin B[SUB]12[/SUB], vitamin B[SUB]2[/SUB] and several minerals, such as calcium, iron and zinc. . . even a lacto-vegetarian diet produces an increased risk of deficiencies of vitamin B[SUB]12[/SUB] and possibly certain minerals such as iron.”[SUP]27[/SUP] These deficiencies can adversely affect not only physical growth but also neurological development. And following a vegan diet while pregnant is a recipe for disaster.
You will, however, by embracing vegetarianism, provide a market for vegetarian products—the kind of highly processed, high-profit foods advertised in Vegetarian Times.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Okay tell be how you get B12 from anything other than meat?
> 
> A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage



I get plenty of B12 vitamins from Spirulina., thanks for your concern though.




Snowman said:


> Show me a study that shows vegan breast milk contains enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3



I am sure you are capable of looking that up yourself if you are really interested, as I mentioned I am not interested in wasting energy debating you, you obviously have more time on your hands then I do as I really couldnt be bothered trying to prove things to you.
The hard work has been done, its up to you to watch it & research it yourself.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I get plenty of B12 vitamins from Spirulina., thanks for your concern though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No you don't B12 is only found in animals. Also I did look it up.. No way would I do that to my kids!

- - - Updated - - -
When you don't even understand B12 I have to wonder if you are taking care of yourself without the right knowledge to be vegan... 
Spirulina is not considered to be a reliable source of Vitamin B[SUB]12[/SUB]. Spirulina supplements contain predominantly pseudovitamin B[SUB]12[/SUB], which is biologically inactive in humans.
The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada in their position paper on vegetarian diets state that spirulina cannot be counted on as a reliable source of active vitamin B[SUB]12.[/SUB] The medical literature similarly advises that spirulina is unsuitable as a source of B[SUB]12[/SUB]


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## Wildcall (Dec 2, 2013)

meat free vs meat is a great debate. I'll tell you my story...

3 years ago my dad was diagnosed with non hodgkin's lymphoma its was VERY aggressive and in 2 weeks what had started as a marble size lump on the kidney had turned to cancerous tumors throughout his body it even ventured into his eyes and brain. Docs were certain that chemo and radiation wouldn't work but they started anyway. 

At the time of the treatment starting i was looking for natural alternatives if it didnt work. I ended up finding a book called the china study... awesome read! Its all about animal based proteins and cancers. So i gave it to dad and said read it. Afterwards i sat next to him and said "Lets do it..." No animal based proteins, No Casein (Milk or dairy), No sugar... Me being a type 1 diabetic this was going to be fun 

The first week was a killer!!! going from 1 litre of milk per day to soy milk and no meat !!! finding new recipes!! im sure all converted know what im talking about. after a week though i felt lighter... and generally better. My blood glucose readings were CRAZY good!

After Dad and i had been on this change for 5 months he had received all his chemo and was about to start radiation on his eyes and head. They sent him into do tests of remaining cancer... to this day the docs still have no idea how but they had placed him into remission (well the cancer was no longer visible). to the extent that the doctors reduced the radiation to a 1/2 dose!

Now im not going to say that it was the no protein diet thing but it to this day i dont eat meat, dairy and minimal sugar. My insulin dose has halved! and my dad has had no relapse 2.5 years later! finger crossed it stays like that... for me changing was health related. As long as animal are killed humanly then each to their own.

On a side note... as the earth gets more and more over populated it maybe the only option for people to eat plants only. You think about it. The amount of land needed to bring up 100 cattle or animals... with same amount of land the number of plants would out number it significantly!


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Yes that is why people have been sent to jail over it... Its FACT.
> 
> Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development.
> A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers
> ...





Snowman said:


> I watched a few. But they didn't show any real evidence. I can show you a doco on big foot and that he exists.





Snowman said:


> Okay tell be how you get B12 from anything other than meat?
> 
> 
> A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage





Snowman said:


> Show me a study that shows vegan breast milk contains enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3





Snowman said:


> No you don't B12 is only found in animals. Also I did look it up.. No way would I do that to my kids!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> When you don't even understand B12 I have to wonder if you are taking care of yourself without the right knowledge to be vegan...
> ...




Making comments about me having children is a little off topic don't you think? I am not even going to entertain that further.

This isnt a debate about B12 vitamins, I know enough about b12 vitamins to know I dont need to be worried about lacking them.
As mentioned I havent given up dairy products.
& besides that the human body only needs 3 micrograms of b12 per day, we possess bacteria in our mouth & intestines that produce it naturally.
& unless you are eating your meat raw your not getting as much b12 as you think you are.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Making comments about me having children is a little off topic don't you think? I am not even going to entertain that further.
> 
> This isnt a debate about B12 vitamins, I know enough about b12 vitamins to know I dont need to be worried about lacking them.
> As mentioned I havent given up dairy products.
> ...


That's my whole point. It's fine to chose a lifestyle. As long as it doesn't interfere with another life. Adults are much better suited to a vegan diet. But breast feeding mothers and growing children are not. That's the facts and in light of the deaths of children at the hands of vegans it is important for people to know.


The two B12 reactions are crucial for rapidly growing cells and the key to understanding its major functions in the body. For example, the bone marrow, a sponge-like tissue inside bones, needs B12 to produce healthy red blood cells. B12 is also required to maintain the rapidly dividing cells lining the gastrointestinal tract. Since B12 is required for DNA production and cell division, adequate levels during pregnancy are necessary for normal fetal growth and development.

B12 also has a fundamental role in the development and function of the brain and nervous system. B12 is involved in the formation of myelin, the protective coating that surrounds nerve fibers. It is also need to produce neurotransmitters, the chemicals that carry nerve signals between cells.
.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

alexbonner said:


> meat free vs meat is a great debate. I'll tell you my story...
> 
> 3 years ago my dad was diagnosed with non hodgkin's lymphoma its was VERY aggressive and in 2 weeks what had started as a marble size lump on the kidney had turned to cancerous tumors throughout his body it even ventured into his eyes and brain. Docs were certain that chemo and radiation wouldn't work but they started anyway.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing! & So Great to hear your dad was able to beat it!
I have spoken to a few people that have told me about their success with fighting Cancer with natural/wholefood diets.
It really is amazing to hear & read some of the stories out there.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

*VEGAN MOTHERS - BRAIN DAMAGED INFANTS

* CONCLUSION: 

In Dr. John Fielder's practice outside Cairns, Australia, he has had this experience: 
vegan women have typically been sterile 
or had brain damaged babies 
or had babies who didn't grow or some other abnormal outcome 


_Below is something that naturopath John Fielder recently posted to the Rawlife list. He repeats this on his website, __http://www.ig.com.au/anl. He said in a later post that he has seen these negative outcomes in about a dozen cases. Mark _

"My experience with vegans on both a raw food regimen and mixed raw and 
cooked has been to the effect that when they were on the vegan diet they 
were either, sterile (unable to reproduce), had children which did not 
grow, or had children born brain damaged, to mention a few of the outcomes. When 
they subsequently included some form of animal product in their diet, be 
it raw eggs, raw yoghurt or koumiss, or raw meat, then the sterility 
disappeared and pregnancy occurred, with the subsequent birth of a healthy 
child, the children grew normally, any children born subsequently were 
healthy and developed normally. 

If, in the instance of the mother(s) who had been sterile, and 
subsequently conceived after the introduction of the animal product, then ceased to 
include the animal product in the diet, invariably the child would be born 
with brain damage." 

 Dr. John Fielder
http://www.ig.com.au/anl


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## princessparrot (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> *VEGAN MOTHERS - BRAIN DAMAGED INFANTS
> 
> * CONCLUSION:
> 
> ...


Why is my niece fine then


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

*VEGAN CENTENARIANS – WHERE ARE THEY?

* CONCLUSION:

The beauty and simplicity of Veganism and Fruitarianism sounds appealing, but .... 
Of 60,000 centenarians in the United States, there are no vegans or fruitarians 
Many well-known vegans have died early after battling severe illnesses for years 
Short-term, raw vegan diets offer enormous benefits in overcoming serious health problems. 
Long-term, physical and psychological deterioration will almost certainly occur. 


*Vegan Centenarians – Where Are They?*
by Brian White

In recent years, I’ve noticed a growing trend among young people to follow the teachings of vegan ‘gurus’ like *David Wolfe, Douglas Graham, Paul Nison *and* Gabriel Cousens.* Many of these followers are obsessed in their dietary beliefs and have unrealistic expectations of _‘living to 100 in a perfect state of health.’_ They overlook the fact that most vegan leaders have died prematurely after battling severe illnesses for years. *They also fail to produce a single authenticated vegan centenarian to validate their beliefs.* 
While the beauty and simplicity of Veganism and Fruitarianism sounds appealing, there’s just one tiny flaw ….. the vast majority of people who attempt these diets will fail. Eventually, chronic health problems caused by nutritional deficiencies will force them to add animal foods into their diets. Sadly, many misguided health- seekers will ignore this warning and suffer the consequences. How do I know this? Because 30 years of research and experience tells me so. 
Think about this for a moment; if the utopian claims made about these dietary regimes are genuine, *where are all the vegan/fruitarian centenarians??* 
There are an estimated 60,000 centenarians in the United States, 9,000 in the United Kingdom, and 3,000 here in Australia. Most are meat eaters and a few are vegetarian, but I’ve _never_ heard of any who are vegan or fruitarian. 
In fact, in one of the world’s longest-running studies of authenticated centenarians ever undertaken, it was found that _none_ of the participants were vegan, fruitarian or even vegetarian! The_* Okinawa Centenarian Study*_ has been ongoing since 1976 and examined the lives of over 600 centenarians who were living their traditional lifestyle. Their diets included fish, pork, poultry, dairy products and eggs. 
While I acknowledge they only represent a small percentage of the population, vegan and fruitarian groups have existed for a long time, so they’ve had ample opportunity to establish their longevity bonafides ….. 

*David Wolfe* claims, _“My mom is from Persia, and in that country they have vegan communities dating back thousands of years. They also have raw-vegan communities with similar traditions.”_ 
Then why isn’t every television station in the world reporting on this super-race? After “thousands of years” of dietary and genetic purity, you’d expect to hear of hundreds of fully verified, healthy centenarians living today. Where are they? 

The *Arnold Ehret Health Club* has operated in the U.S. since the 1920’s, so there should be plenty of 100 –120 year old fruitarians running around. Yet, when I contacted the club, they admitted they were not aware of _any_ Ehret devotee who has reached 100. It seems that fruitarian centenarians are rarer than Bigfoot! 

*H. Jay Dinshah* was the founder and president of the _*American Vegan Society.*_ Although a vegetarian from birth, then a vegan for 43 years, he died from a heart attack at just 66 years of age. 

*Herbert M. Shelton* was the most influential _Natural Hygienist_ of the 20th century. For six decades he preached the superiority of a raw vegan diet of fruits, vegetables and nuts. Did he enjoy a long and vigorous life? No! He was in a declining state of health in his sixties, and was bedridden for the final 13 years of his life due to Parkinson’s disease. He died at just 89. 

His protégé, *T.C. Fry*, taught the infallibility of a raw vegan diet for 26 years, yet he died at the ridiculously young age of 70!! However, even more disturbing is the fact that he suffered from numerous health problems long before his death. According to Dr Bernarr Zovluck, a close friend for 30 years, Fry died from coronary embolism. He also had multiple atherosclerotic thrombi of his lower legs, edema, a lesion on his left lung, anemia, high acid blood pH, breathing problems, constipation, osteoporosis, teeth and gum problems, etc. 
Yes indeed, his vegan/fruitarian diet certainly worked miracles for his health! 

*George R. Clements* (AKA *Hilton Hotema*, AKA *Kenyon Klamonti*) claimed he became a vegan at 9 years of age after reading a book about health at school. He also claimed he lived as a breatharian-fruitarian for almost 80 years and would “live to be 150 years of age.” He only managed to reach 92. 

*Hereward Carrington*, author of *The Natural Food of Man*, believed that a strict diet of raw fruits and nuts could “sustain man in a perfect state of health”. He died at 78 years of age. 

*Dr O.L.M. Abramowski *was a German born doctor who immigrated to Australia in 1884. While working at the Mildura District Hospital, he successfully treated patients with fresh fruit and juices. He wrote several books including _*Fruitarian Diet and Physical Rejuvenation*_ and thought his diet of raw fruit, nuts and grains would enable him to reach 100 –120 years. He died at 58.


*Ross Horne*, Australia’s most famous raw food author, believed his fruitarian diet was superior to all others. I met Ross in 1983 and corresponded with him periodically over the years. Despite rigidly adhering to his tropical fruit diet for 22 years, he died last year of Prostate Cancer. He was only 79. Ironically, his final book was titled _*Cancerproof Your Body*_. 

*Summary:*
As an 18 year old searching for the secrets of perfect health and long life, I had a voracious appetite for knowledge and devoured every book I could find; from Vilhjalmur Stefansson to Adelle Davis to Arnold Ehret; from carnivorous to omnivorous to frugivorous. Over the past three decades I’ve read hundreds of books and scientific studies relating to diet, nutritional supplements and natural therapies. In addition to experimenting on myself, I’ve also observed the practical, long-term effects various diets have on people. Along the way I’ve encountered charlatans, liars and delusional individuals who make ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims about therapies, diets and products. 
After 30 years of research, I have no doubts that the foundation of a healthy diet should be fresh, raw, organically grown vegetables and fruits (and their juices), plus sprouts, nuts and seeds. Short-term, raw vegan diets offer enormous benefits in overcoming serious health problems. However, long-term physical and psychological deterioration will almost certainly occur unless animal foods such as eggs, fish or dairy products are consumed. Those who refuse to do this should supplement with B12 (methylcobalamin), folic acid and flax or hemp seeds. *Copyright © 2005 Brian White* 

_About The Author: 
Brian White has been researching health related topics for over 30 years and has authored several controversial articles on Diet, Nutritional Supplements and Natural Therapies – using scientific evidence._

This article courtesy of http://www.wholefooddirectory.com. 

- - - Updated - - -



princessparrot said:


> Why is my niece fine then



Who knows what brain function she is missing? Who knows what she could have been or how her body has been affected or under developed?
The biggest problem is people armed with a little knowledge doing these diets. We've seen first hand Gecko fail to understand the difference between risk and cause. What certain vitamins do and why we need them. Admittedly adults do not require the same amount as a growing child.
My sister catered for the Royal Collage of Surgens. So surgens from all over the world. When medical staff at that calibre are eating meat and balanced diets I think you have to take into consideration what they see and do everyday.
I think there are real problems with our society and we do not eat many things in moderation that we should. And I think some peoples health is directly affected by that.

- - - Updated - - -



princessparrot said:


> Why is my niece fine then


Also you have to look at the language used. Typically is not every instance is it? Would I risk my own childs health over something so trivial? No way!!!


----------



## Wildcall (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> *VEGAN MOTHERS - BRAIN DAMAGED INFANTS
> 
> * CONCLUSION:
> 
> ...



i dont know if you meant it or not but this has been taken out of context... The part above the paragraphs you a quoted is about FRUITARIANISM not wholesome vegan diet. this is the whole item:

FRUITARIANISM

What was your experience as a fruitarian - that made you conclude it is not the ultimate in nutrition? With yourself or others?

My experience with fruitarianism was both with myself and many others. The climate here in the tropics is very conducive to living only on fruit, nuts, seeds etc. The first three years appear to be very good, with the next two a plateau, and then it is all down hill. I have been in contact with many people who have had the same experience, or similar. That is of course if they are strict with their diet and don't cheat. And some who were just that, they didn't make it, they died.

I have seen couples who just could not conceive until such time as they added some form of animal product to their diet. And if they continued this way the children were normal. But if they discontinued the animal product as soon as they conceived the child was born brain damaged.

The number of brain damaged children due to the vegan diet I would consider to have been around 3%, that is three in every 100 births. And there should not have been any. These people were not exposed to chemicals, or any other factor that I could find. And they definitely were not involved in the use of social drugs.

The addition of the animal product refers to a vegan diet which includes vegetables and not only fruit. The animal product could be either raw or cooked. It is my own personal belief that if we were able to follow this whole cycle through and observe all its ramifications, as with Pottenger and his cats, we would find that the animal product would produce far superior results if it were raw.

I have observed children who have not grown from the age of nine months for the next two years because the parents adopted a fruitarian regimen, and so fed the child. The non-growth of the children was, and is, common where the children are fed exclusively on fruit.

No I am not in favour of fruitarianism.

Taken from An Historical Interview with John Fielder


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## Gecko :) (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman, I think you have made your opinion well a truly known.
Probably no need to keep harping on with your opinion.
This is not even a thread about being vegan, perhaps you could start your own thread if you feel so passionate about veganism, Meat & B12 Vitamins.

I don't know you but can see you spend a fair amount of time on here & I have seen you post on *many* occasions & it seems to be your nature to be aggressive & persistent & attempt to take over other peoples threads but you really don't know everything & it wouldnt hurt for you to be a little more open minded, you may actually learn a thing or 2.

The amount of time you have wasted making useless quotes & comments you could have answered each & every single question,statement/comment you have made by watching the documentaries I linked you to.

Until you have watched them I dont care to continue wasting time entertaining your comments & questions.
I also find it absolutely laughable that you are trying to educate me about ethics & eating healthy & you are a meat eater.
B12 vitamins should be the least of your worries & priorities!


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

By Michelle Roberts 
BBC News health reporter, in Washington DC




Meat, milk, butter and cheese are all avoided by vegans
Putting children on strict vegan diets is "unethical" and could harm their development, a US scientist has argued.


Lindsay Allen, of the US Agricultural Research Service, attacked parents who insisted their children lived by the maxim "meat is murder".


Animal source foods have some nutrients not found anywhere else, she told a Washington science conference.


The Vegan Society dismissed the claims, saying its research showed vegans were often healthier than meat eaters.


'Development affected'


Professor Allen said: "There have been sufficient studies clearly showing that when women avoid all animal foods, their babies are born small, they grow very slowly and they are developmentally retarded, possibly permanently."



There's absolutely no question that it's unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans 
Professor Lindsay Allen, US Agricultural Research Service
"If you're talking about feeding young children, pregnant women and lactating women, I would go as far as to say it is unethical to withhold these foods [animal source foods] during that period of life."


She was especially critical of parents who imposed a vegan lifestyle on their children, denying them milk, cheese, butter and meat.


"There's absolutely no question that it's unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans," she told the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).


Missing nutrients


She said the damage to a child began while it was growing in the womb and continued once it had been born.


Research she carried out among African schoolchildren suggests as little as two spoonfuls of meat each day is enough to provide nutrients such as vitamin B12, zinc and iron.


The 544 children studied had been raised on diets chiefly consisting of starchy, low-nutrition corn and bean staples lacking these micronutrients.


This meant they were already malnourished.


Over two years, some of the children were given 2oz supplements of meat each day, equivalent to about two spoonfuls of mince.


Two other groups received either a cup of milk a day or an oil supplement containing the same amount of energy. The diet of a fourth group was left unaltered.



HAVE YOUR SAY
A wide-ranging mixed diet with exercise is essential for any child 
James, Cornwall, UK


Send us your views
The changes seen in the children given the meat, and to a lesser extent the milk or oil, were dramatic.


These children grew more and performed better on problem-solving and intelligence tests than any of the other children at the end of the two years.


Adding either meat or milk to the diets also almost completely eliminated the very high rates of vitamin B12 deficiency previously seen in the children.


No quick fixes


Professor Allen stressed that although the study (which was partially supported by the National Cattleman's Beef Association) was conducted in a poor African community that was malnourished, its message was highly relevant to people in developed countries.


She accepted that adults could avoid animal foods if they took the right supplements, but she said adding animal source food into the diet was a better way to tackle malnutrition worldwide than quick fixes with supplements in the form of pills.


"Where feasible, it would be much better to do it through the diet than by giving pills," she said.


"With pills it's very hard to be certain that the quantity of nutrition is right for everybody and it's hard to sustain."


In Africa, good results had been obtained from giving people a dried meat on a stick snack which proved both nutritious and appealing.


Professor Montague Demment, from the University of California at Davis, said more emphasis should be placed on animal source food to combat global malnutrition.


Vegan defence


However, the claims have been dismissed by the Vegan Society in the UK.


In a statement, it said increasing numbers of people were opting for a plant-based diet.


Kostana Azmi, the chief executive officer, said: "The vegan diet can provide you with more energy, nutrition, and is bursting with goodness."


She said plant sources were sometimes a safer, and cheaper source of nutrients.


For instance, animal sources of omega-3 oils, needed for the development of the brain and nervous system, were often contaminated with pollutants, such as mercury in fish.


In addition, the vegan diet was often a healthier alternative. She said dairy and meat products were rich in saturated fat, while plant based diets were low in it.


The society does recommend that vegans supplement their diet with vitamin B-12 pills.


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## andynic07 (Dec 2, 2013)

saximus said:


> Full disclosure - I'm a meat-eater but in answer to this specific point have a look here: Position statement - Meat and cancer prevention - National Cancer Prevention Policy
> 
> "Major cancer prevention reports have stated that there is convincing evidence that red and processed meat increase the risk of bowel cancer."
> 
> Granted, everything these days seems to cause cancer but the scientific link is there.


The study is looking at high intake of red meat, is this higher than the RDI for red meat and is this the cause of the bowel cancer?


Gecko :) said:


> Did you see the Documentaries I posted earlier?
> All very informative, life changing & worth watching.


Just to quantify my thoughts on the matter both my parents died of cancer at around 50 , my father contracted stomach cancer at around 30 which he survived into his early 50's where he died of his second bout of stomach cancer and my mother died of bowel cancer. Not one time had my mothers doctors suggested a link to red meat consumption or recommended that it be cut out of her diet. I am under the belief that too much of most things be harmful to you or trigger another illness. A car crash at 20 km/h will most likely not be harmful to you but a car crash at 200km/h will almost definitely be harmful and sometimes fateful but that does not cause people to start saying that driving cars is killing people.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I don't know you but can see you spend a fair amount of time on here & I have seen you post on *many* occasions & it seems to be your nature to be aggressive & persistent & attempt to take over other peoples threads but you really don't know everything & it wouldnt hurt for you to be a little more open minded, you may actually learn a thing or 2.



Really please quote me an example... 
I am blunt and to the point, but no more than anyone else with aspergers. Aspergers doesn't affect my intelligence however (just the way I relate to people) and I feel that you are lacking some facts. I enjoy PROVING my point with facts.
I trust admin would suspend me if I was a trouble maker and I take to heart your personal attack on me.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess its some consolation that my posts get likes, which shows others support my point of view. Something your posts seem to be lacking..


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## Snake_Whisperer (Dec 2, 2013)

Raised a hunter, love meat. Dairy makes me a bit windy though  Gotta say, this thread is a howl! OK, maybe just one teeny-weeny pot stir...


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## NickGeee (Dec 2, 2013)

Most of my relatives were raised on farms in europe before moving to aus 50 years ago. They eat meat with almost every meal, so I guess I followed.


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## Shotta (Dec 2, 2013)

i eat food


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## borntobnude (Dec 2, 2013)

Ha ha ha . what a funny thread , I started reading all of the posts but soon got bored so I scrolled through -- only to stop at and like the venus flytrap pic . 

Meat , it is interesting that if you look at the food chain most/ all of the top contenders are ????? Carnivore or at least omnivores . there must be a reason for his , AND without too much fanfare ,, ITS "brain DEVELOPMENT "

We as humans are the only animal to have a "choice "of diet , everything else eats seasonally or as per availability . I have never heard a lion saying that he didn't want too eat that wildebeest because he cared about its feelings . 


As a chef I have had to put up with some rubbish Dietary choice requirements over the years , dietary requirements on the other hand I have never had a problem with . 

Running one of Sydney's best MEAT establishments through the 80's I had many a good laugh / mental challenge with the VEGGIE customers . and then an episode of whites a few weeks ago brought it all back ( sorry mods ) Delete away 

:lol:
W a n k e r s


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## justin91 (Dec 2, 2013)

Wow, that escalated quickly. Back on topic... I'm slowly changing my lifestyle to paleo. After much research into it, I believe it to make the most sense out of all the stupid eating lifestyles out there. Eating only meat, fish, poultry, nuts and seeds, fruit and veg (might of missed one or two things) would be the healthiest lifestyle. Cutting out all processed foods is the key to being healthy. Cutting out sugar is also the best thing we can do. Gluten is bad for you, get rid of that to. Dairy? Don't need it.. The truth is, there is so much rubbish information out there that who really knows what's best. It all really comes down to what we believe is best. I personally believe the paleo is best. Argue with me all you want but that's my beliefs. Meat all the way!! (non grain fed)


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## Sheldoncooper (Dec 2, 2013)

I'll have one mixed grille please


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## Torti (Dec 2, 2013)

Stopped drinking milk a year ago, now happy with Almond milk (Aldi!).
Love meat, mainly beef, sometimes pork. Try to eat it only on weekends, mainly salads and fruit during the week.
Started to dry age my beef, and my mate makes the best varieties of sausages around: https://www.facebook.com/TheBrathausCanberra
Love cheese!
Cheers!!!


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## longqi (Dec 2, 2013)

Love good meat
Love fresh fish more
Really enjoy good cheese
Green veges are way cool
So are roasted root veges
Fruit can be to die for

Bread is ok but wouldnt miss it
Pasta.... just a filleruppa

I voted health
Simply because a well balanced diet works for me


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## Rlpreston (Dec 3, 2013)

I was a vegetarian for 8 years (vegan for 3) for ethical reasons and it did nothing at all for my health! In that time I found I caught more viruses and suffered longer and more severe symptoms than others. I also found that the stress of trying to follow the 'lifestyle' without criticism was too much for me. In that time I became pregnant with my first child and began consuming animal products again due to my concerns about the diet affecting my pregnancy. 

Didn't work for me and as far as the ethics goes, it's the circle of life, sad but true. Most animals are another's food! (Including us sometimes!) 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## marcus0002 (Dec 3, 2013)

I hunt and kill animals for food. I also eat meat that that other people have been paid to kill and cut up and package for me. I also eat vegetables and grains that were grown on land that used to be animals habitats.
I buy animals that other people have killed and feed them to my snakes.
I live in a house that is situated on land that used to be animal habitat. etc etc.

So what.


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## Shaggz (Dec 3, 2013)

I eat meat because I was born an omnivore


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## borntobnude (Dec 3, 2013)

Torti said:


> Stopped drinking milk a year ago, now happy with Almond milk (Aldi!).
> Love meat, mainly beef, sometimes pork. Try to eat it only on weekends, mainly salads and fruit during the week.
> Started to dry age my beef, and my mate makes the best varieties of sausages around: https://www.facebook.com/TheBrathausCanberra
> Love cheese!
> ...


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## i_am_snake (Dec 3, 2013)

I eat anything and everything (as long as its edible!)


I think theres too many variables to acurately say what is healthy and what is not. Dietary requirements and tolerances vary with different people, even within a single family.


I believe the biggest factor in health may be exercise. Protein takes alot longer to digest, much more so than carbohydrates, and our bodies burn more fat doing so, As hunter gatherers we walked everyday looking for food, searching for our next meal, this is something many in todays society no longer have to do to find all the juicy meat we desire.


So with meat being linked to heart disease and cancers like bowel and stomach ect may be true but we are no longer doing the things that came with having such a high protein diet. Were no longer burning up the large amounts of of fuel protein provides us, thus leading to such health problems.


I voted tradition as my ancestors (aborigines) have lived on a diet largely consisting on a variety of different bush meats, supplemented with seasonal plant foods and fruits. To hunt and eat meat is something i was raised with and still practice today.


To the OP i find it quite ignorant for you to say that eating meat is unhealthy and having the 'health' option in your poll in commas. especially since you've been a vegetarian for just 6 months. You can only speak for what you have experienced with your change in diet, not assume what it could do for others.


One diet does not suit all.


Dan


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## -Peter (Dec 3, 2013)

I dont eat dairy because I am lactose intolerant. I dont go round telling everyone to not use diary. Great you dont eat animal products, good for you but take it to your zealot friends to talk about. Dont come on here with your half baked propaganda pretending to be "just wondering" then pepper every post with half truths, blatant misinformation and evangelising.
Most people dont eat only meat and dairy, they mix it up with alhe other food groups. Unbelievablebly my family make meals with no animal products at all and frequently. They enjoy it for the taste, the satisfaction, the health and well being that eating a well balanced diet affords. In a lot of cases peoples health is effceted by individual food groups. By turning vegan this often helps because in isolating a vast array of foods they have cut out the ones that effect them along with the ones that dont. Veganism is an ideology, just like other religions it is based on philosophies. Your ethics and morals while supported by large groups of people are niether right or wrong, they are your judgements. Anyway, I have to thaw out some tofudemice for my snakes.


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## LippyM (Dec 3, 2013)

No judgement here.

I don’t eat, use or wear any product that contains or is tested on animals. 
Apparently that makes me vegan but really I am just a person who has chosen not to eat or use animal products. I’m not a label or a type, I’m just me.

It’s a choice I made for me only, like a person may choose a faith that reflects who they are or want to be.

My husband eats and uses animal products and so do all my family and friends and work colleagues. In fact, I don’t know any other people who are ‘vegan’.

If someone asks me why I have made this choice I tell them. If they ask questions I answer them to the best of my knowledge. If they want any more information then I suggest that they might want to do their own research rather than take my word and opinion. 

I don’t lecture, demonise or preach and I don’t think less of people who aren’t vegan. To be frank, I don’t care and it’s not my business how other people choose to live their life.

If people I think I’m a tree hugging knitted sandal wearing lunatic that's their choice and frankly I don’t care what most people think of me. ….Any more than I reckon other people care what I think of them! 

Vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, exclusive meat eater, other – none are right or wrong or better or worse, they’re just different choices. You could site many reasons for and against for any of them so think and believe what you like, and live to be true to yourself.

I’m not out to change the world, I’m just out to change _my_ world.


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## thomasssss (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I am not denying that it hasnt happened , but really , what is your point?
> Obviously there are right & wrong ways of doing things.
> Obviously your body needs certain vitamins, minerals & nutrients to survive, but if you are telling me you cant get them elsewhere other then meat then I really can't be bothered wasting more time entertaining your comments.


gecko , when we where cave men , the people we evolved from do you think we even had access to theses veges and legumes what ever you want to eat , that compensate for the proteins etc that we would have lacked in if we didnt eat meat as cave men 

would be pretty ignorant to deny the fact that we as a species would not have made it if our founding cave men fathers didnt hunt and eat meat to gain these things , we couldnt resort to veges only back then we simply would not have made it 

so i will put it to you , that the only reason you can have the diet you have today is because all the things you have access to a much wider range of veges 

gecko , heres a test for you , try to live only off the veges that you can grom locally in your backyard and nothing else , then come back in a few months time when youve had nothing but cucumber and lettuce and tell us how great your feeling


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

It is amazing how defensive you all are?!
Although I am not really surprised at the reception I have received, ppl seem to be very set in their ways & very closed minded & defensive about their meat.

It is amazing how many people are pointing the finger at me for being a pusher or preacher when look at the way all of you are preaching about meat & judging me for being different to you.
I really dont see the point in attacking me because I have a different way of doing things, but I am not at all surprised, but of course I am being the rude pushy one who's pushing my beliefs onto everyone?
I think I am more than entitled to have an opinion just as much as the rest of you.

The thing is I really dont have time to keep on top of this thread otherwise I know I would be able to answer each & every comment that is being made, but really I cant be bothered going back & forth with close minded ignorant people.
The documentaries I listed have all the answers within them.

At the end of the day I am happy with my lifestyle & wish I knew about it long ago, I have learnt so much in the past 6 months, I find it all very interesting & I am really enjoying learning more about healthy living. 

I just wish it was easier to share what I have recently learnt with other people without the rudeness.
I am sorry if me wanting to share that with people is in anyway offensive?!
I dont think trying to understand why people want to eat meat is such a bad thing?


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

The thing is most people here believe in science. We believe in evolution and fact. So religion and fads that are not part of fact but rather fiction don't go will with this group in general. 
We like facts and the facts have been mentioned. But you appear to closed minded to listen to them. It reminds my of the debates about creation vs evolution. We evolved eating meat and it is an important part of our genetic make up. This is the main reason we eat meat if you are truly interested in why we eat meat.

In much the same vain religious people always want to be able to "share" their new found love and joy for their lifestyle and are frustrated when people do not want to hear their message. It's not that people are closed mind as you are labeling them. It's that they have decided for themselves how to live.


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## thomasssss (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> It is amazing how defensive you all are?!
> Although I am not really surprised at the reception I have received, ppl seem to be very set in their ways & very closed minded & defensive about their meat.
> 
> It is amazing how many people are pointing the finger at me for being a pusher or preacher when look at the way all of you are preaching about meat & judging me for being different to you.
> ...


could you please answer my last few points though , i will leave it after that i just want to know you view on whether or not we would have made it as a species if it wasnt for the fact that we took what we could get LOCALLY 

and if you dont believe that then would you be willing to live on a diet of nothing but vegetables and fruits that you can grow in your local area 

i know you dont think your trying to push your beliefs onto anyone but what was the point of this thread , i think your real agenda has just been hidden behind a peer poll

aslo my final point for the thread , meat is not detrimental to your health , like you have said it is over eating of any food however is (even bananas ) , there are plenty of professionals with much more knowledge on the matter than you and i who would agree with that


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

Rlpreston said:


> I was a vegetarian for 8 years (vegan for 3) for ethical reasons and it did nothing at all for my health! In that time I found I caught more viruses and suffered longer and more severe symptoms than others. I also found that the stress of trying to follow the 'lifestyle' without criticism was too much for me. In that time I became pregnant with my first child and began consuming animal products again due to my concerns about the diet affecting my pregnancy.
> 
> Didn't work for me and as far as the ethics goes, it's the circle of life, sad but true. Most animals are another's food! (Including us sometimes!)
> 
> ...



I am interested to know what kind of viruses you suffered from as a result of giving up animal products.
Obviously only if your comfortable sharing that kind of information.





Shaggz said:


> I eat meat because I was born an omnivore



I hear this statement a lot & as mentioned it was also my belief until recently as that is what I was taught & believed to be true.
But what makes you think we are Omnivore?
Show me factual evidence that we are suppose to be Omnivore?





i_am_snake said:


> I eat anything and everything (as long as its edible!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How am I the one being ignorant?
The fact I have only been vegetarian for 6 months has nothing to do with it, I am not the founder of vegetarian/vegan diets & not claiming to be.
So your comment is a little ridiculous.




-Peter said:


> I dont eat dairy because I am lactose intolerant. I dont go round telling everyone to not use diary. Great you dont eat animal products, good for you but take it to your zealot friends to talk about. Dont come on here with your half baked propaganda pretending to be "just wondering" then pepper every post with half truths, blatant misinformation and evangelising.
> Most people dont eat only meat and dairy, they mix it up with alhe other food groups. Unbelievablebly my family make meals with no animal products at all and frequently. They enjoy it for the taste, the satisfaction, the health and well being that eating a well balanced diet affords. In a lot of cases peoples health is effceted by individual food groups. By turning vegan this often helps because in isolating a vast array of foods they have cut out the ones that effect them along with the ones that dont. Veganism is an ideology, just like other religions it is based on philosophies. Your ethics and morals while supported by large groups of people are niether right or wrong, they are your judgements. Anyway, I have to thaw out some tofudemice for my snakes.



Who are you to tell me what I can & cant come on here & talk about?
I have clearly posted this in the chit chat section & have just as much right to be here as you do.

What are you talking about about 'half baked propaganda & peppering posts with half truths, blatant misinformation and evangelising"
Please explain?

Where have I said that I believe meat shouldnt be consumed at all?
Obviously there is a place for meat & I am not saying you shouldnt feed your reptile what is required of their natural diet - that is obvious.
Again I have posted this in the chit chat section & havent once said people should be trying to convert their pets to a herbavore diet!


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

"Wow it's amazing how defensive you are!"

- - - Updated - - -



Gecko :) said:


> It is amazing how defensive you all are?!


Touché!


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## Rlpreston (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I am interested to know what kind of viruses you suffered from as a result of giving up animal products.
> Obviously only if your comfortable sharing that kind of information.



I don't believe I suffered any virus as a direct result if a lack of animal product. I do believe that my immune system was not as strong as it is while I am consuming animal products. 

The viruses I was frequently struck with were the usual colds and flu as well as a nasty bout of viral conjunctivitis. Since resuming an omnivorous diet I have not shown symptoms of as many viruses and when I do they are less severe. 
There is no controlled scientific method behind this though, just my opinion of what I encountered. It's not my business what anyone else eats, just thought I'd share my reasoning.



ETA: This topic will always (in my experience) garner responses that are defensive/offensive one way or the other. It's human nature to defend what you do and believe to be right.


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## thomasssss (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I hear this statement a lot & as mentioned it was also my belief until recently as that is what I was taught & believed to be true.
> But what makes you think we are Omnivore?
> Show me factual evidence that we are suppose to be Omnivore?
> 
> ...


i refer you back to my point on cave men , do you honestly think that we would of survived on purely the vegetables and fruits that our founding ancestors had LOCALLY , remembering that back then we didnt have access to all the vegetables and fruits we have today 

also you havent exactly said that meat shouldn't be consumed but you are hinting at it when you say things like it it detrimental to our health , which is way off the mark and totally incorrect , its not the meat thats bad its how much of it we eat


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

Snowman said:


> The thing is most people here believe in science. We believe in evolution and fact. So religion and fads that are not part of fact but rather fiction don't go will with this group in general.
> We like facts and the facts have been mentioned. But you appear to closed minded to listen to them. It reminds my of the debates about creation vs evolution. We evolved eating meat and it is an important part of our genetic make up. This is the main reason we eat meat if you are truly interested in why we eat meat.
> 
> In much the same vain religious people always want to be able to "share" their new found love and joy for their lifestyle and are frustrated when people do not want to hear their message. It's not that people are closed mind as you are labeling them. It's that they have decided for themselves how to live.



I also believe in evolution & facts.
I have presented you with many 'facts' , Im not asking you to take my word for it, there are plenty of facts available, whether of not you want to do anything with them is up to you & you alone.
I am not closed minded at all, I have been living by the same diet as you for most of my life & am quite open minded about it.
Its just after the studies I have seen & facts I have discovered I am actually blown away that people still want to consume it which is why I was interested to start a poll to see what the motivation is.





thomasssss said:


> could you please answer my last few points though , i will leave it after that i just want to know you view on whether or not we would have made it as a species if it wasnt for the fact that we took what we could get LOCALLY
> 
> and if you dont believe that then would you be willing to live on a diet of nothing but vegetables and fruits that you can grow in your local area
> 
> ...



I think I have made it clear why I have started this thread.
& I am not here to prove if you can live on veggies from your back yard 
(mind you I wouldnt have too much trouble given the selection of fruit/veg I have available)


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Its just after the studies I have seen & facts I have discovered I am actually blown away that people still want to consume it which is why I was interested to start a poll to see what the motivation is.



Really? You are blown away that people want to eat something that has been part of our diet since the beginning of our species???

I think statements like that don't help your credibility. Meat has been part of our diet since the beginning. As Borntobenude pointed out it's an important part of our brain development, as it is for all omnivores and carnivores. It's not like smoking or drugs that came in at a different time and are detrimental to our health. 

I agree that too much meat is bad for the human race and in modern day society we tend to eat far too much. 
Personally I think extremes in any direction are detrimental to health. Whether its too much animal products or no animal products at all. A bit of common sense goes a long way and it's not hard to find a happy medium that will ensure good health.

- - - Updated - - -



Gecko :) said:


> I have presented you with many 'facts' , Im not asking you to take my word for it, there are plenty of facts available, whether of not you want to do anything with them is up to you & you alone.



Yes we have all read and looked into it at one time or another. I presented you with facts from CSIRO and you ignored them. Please provide me with facts from a similar Australian research group that has the credibility of CSIRO. It seems you are into the scaremongering "facts" that are put together by groups that are against meat and animal products. I'm yet to see hard evidence against animal products. I take research very seriously and the sources I obtain information from must be credible. It's common sense to sift fact from fiction. It seems you take a little fact out of context and run with it. Which is in itself a dangerous practice.

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps go through this thread Gecko and see if people have given you likes? That is always a good indicator of whether or not you are on the religion side or science side on this site.
Unless everyone else is wrong and just you are right?

- - - Updated - - -

Some more facts from medical journals about vegans...

*MAHATMA GANDHI AND 22 COMPANIONS FAIL AS VEGANS*
by Arnold DeVries

CONCLUSION: 
Gandhi was unable to live on a vegan diet 
He finally declared vegan claims fraudulent 
Those who insisted that veganism was possible he defined to be "enemies of India"

*NATURAL HYGIENE DR. GIAN-CURSIO WARN ABOUT DISEASES DUE TO VEGAN DIET*

CONCLUSION:
Veganism caused diseases in Dr. Cursio's patients in the 1950's, e.g.:
children got skeletal & tooth problems, hernia, nearsightedness, muscle-problems, deformed heads
Young adults got dental caries, gum line recession, multiple sclerosis, blood chemistry problems, some deaths 
Some deaths of babies 
Dr. Cursio discontinued vegan diets by adding eggs and dairy, which solved the problems

*OUR VEGAN CHILD WAS DEFICIENCY-DAMAGED*
CONCLUSION: 
vegan baby could not lift head 
& could not crawl 
& had minimal muscle strength 
enamel missing from first tooth 
not enough to add vitamin B-12

*RICKETS IN VEGAN INFANT*
by Ward Nicholson


CONCLUSION: 
2 1/2 year old vegan infant developed rickets / bow legs 
problem disappeared with added animal foods
there isn't much margin for errors on vegan diets

*FAMILY WITH SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEMS CAUSED BY STRICT VEGAN DIET 2001*

CONCLUSION:
strict vegan 85% raw diet caused serious health problems in all 5 family members
similar problems also occurred in others on the same vegan diet 
typical problems were e.g. _scattered thinking, looking old, chronically tired, loss of muscle, feeling cold, thyroid problems_ 
strong reluctance in admitting the problems

*THE VEGAN HEALTH PROBLEM SURVEY*

CONCLUSION:
the Westbrooks developed a survey to identifiy the most common problems developed on the vegan Hallelujah diet 
54 health problems were identified 
at first, the failing health of those on the diet typically collides with a strong belief in the theory the vegan Hallelujah diet is now judged adequate for 3 months use only

http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html

- - - Updated - - -

*STRICT VEGAN DIET - DANGEROUS


*http://chetday.com/vegandietdangers.htm 

*Upton Sinclair*
A famous writer and ex-vegan by the name of Upton Sinclair, the activist who forced the meat-packing industry to clean up its act many decades ago when he wrote The Jungle, found he couldn't maintain his work levels on a vegan diet. 
Writing sadly that he hated to give up veganism, Sinclair did so nonetheless because he found his brain just wouldn't function at an optimal level on fruits, vegetables, juice, nuts, and seeds. He turned to Salisbury steak as his answer. 
Although Upton Sinclair was nearly crucified by his vegan friends for changing his diet and writing about the positive results from the change, he maintained that he went where the truth led him. 
I feel the same way. 

*February 2002 Addendum*
I'm increasingly disturbed by the number of letters coming in from individuals who have had their health and well-being deteriorate after following a strict vegan or raw food program for various lengths of time. 
In just a minute I'll share with you the most recent letter, this one from a woman who ate a raw food, vegan diet for several years and who developed spleen deficiencies and other problems. 
The pattern I've been monitoring in email for several years now suggests that the longer a person stays on a strict vegan diet (with little or no "cheating"), the more apt that person is to develop not only deficiency symptoms 
but potentially even chronic health problems. 
Although I'm not the only former vegan and raw foodist seeing this pattern, I seem to be one of the few who actually writes about it and discusses it in public. 
For various reasons, many former (and most current) vegans and raw foodists don't want to publicly confront the problems with their idealistic diets, though many are willing to share their observations and experiences with me in private. But that's a whole different article. 

*Most Commonly Reported Problems and Symptoms*
What are the most commonly reported symptoms from long-term vegans and raw foodists who have been forced to add some animal fat and protein back into their diets to regain or maintain superior health, energy, and well-being? 
Below are the symptoms and problems I hear about in mail from long-term vegans and raw foodists on an all-too-regular basis: 


 inadequate milk production for nursing mothers, as well as retarded physical and mental development in some children who are strictly on a vegan or raw food diet;
 slow metabolism leading to a much less robust lifestyle;
 a general lack of vitality;
 low body temperature (always cold);
 a weak, touchy digestive system with a loss of digestive strength (unable to metabolize food quickly, have to be careful what you eat, how much, must practice food combining to be able to digest food, etc.);
 food cravings (especially among women);
 stalled weight loss because metabolism is too low (predominately in women);
 inability to gain weight, resulting in shrunken, cadaverous-looking bodies (predominately in men);
 weight gains from overeating on carbohydrates;
 amenorrhea (menstrual cycles cease), even in young women;
 loss of libido;
 hair loss and nail problems;
 dental cavities, tooth loss, and gum problems;
 joint pain;
 inability to conceive

- - - Updated - - -

In answer to your question the above is why we still
want to consume animal products.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

Snowman, it is not a popularity contest & you dont need to be Einstein to see that the majority of peoples views within this thread support eating meat.
'Likes' are obviously important to you as it is the second time you have mentioned it.
I couldnt care less how many 'likes' I have received, I am not a teenage girl on facebook & I dont need anyone to beat my drum for me.

& yes I am 'blown away' that if people know the facts & still think that it tastes that good that it outways any potential health risks & still want to eat it.
The fact we have eaten it for such a long time means nothing to me.
We are discovering new things all the time, just because it wasnt available from day 1 doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

I find it amusing that you continue to quote the CSIRO as if they are a trustworthy source,they are Government funded & you dont have to look too far to find they have been accused of mass corruption on many levels, so no I don't find them to be a unbiased credible/reliable source. 

I am not sure why you insist on me providing you with further facts ?
You obviously have the internet & are quite capable of looking into it further if you wish to.
I am not going to go doing your research for you.
I have pointed you in the right direction but I cant make you watch something.


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Snowman, it is not a popularity contest & you dont need to be Einstein to see that the majority of peoples views within this thread support eating meat.
> 'Likes' are obviously important to you as it is the second time you have mentioned it.
> I couldnt care less how many 'likes' I have received, I am not a teenage girl on facebook & I dont need anyone to beat my drum for me.
> 
> ...



Yes the likes show that someone shares your opinion or that you are talking sense. 
Yes you have no facts and even to the degree you distrust the CSIRO and accuse its findings fraudulent, even though when read they are just common sense. 
You seem pretty out there I give you that.

You keep saying that people eat meat because it tastes good. Yet with several posts of people saying they do it for health, you over look that and insist it is for taste? You are not very objective and have not provided any facts.

Yes I looked online and posted my findings from medical journals above. It is proven vegan is detrimental to long term health.

I'm unsure of what you want or wanted with this post? Having looked through your post history it seems you don't contribute to APS. Lots of items for sale, but nothing to help the average keeper or field herper. Not even advice for new keepers. Perhaps you would find more like minded people for the vegan topic on a vegan forum? As many people have stated, you have offended them with your assumptions and your inverted commas on health. If this was your intention then I guess you have achieved your goal.


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## Red-Ink (Dec 3, 2013)

I feel lethargic as a vegetarian... probably not doing it right

I feel more energetic as a omnivore... probably over doing it though

I eat veggies when I crave them and I eat meat when I crave them

Worst thing I do is batter chicken with chicken eggs... coating an animal with its own embryos before I consume it.


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## Wing_Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

Humans have salivary glands - this is inconsistent with herbivorous mammals

Humans do not have fermentation vats like almost all specialised plant eaters

The relative length and distribution of cells in our digestive system indicates we are an intermediate between a pure carnivore and a herbivore. 

Humans cannot survive on a pure herbivorous diet, we at the very least require nuts, fruit, and leaves as well, making us a gramnivore, fruigivore, and a folivore, and by very definition an omnivore. 

There simply are not any anatomical traits that would suggest otherwise. The only reasons behind a "vegan" diet will always remain ethical, and a result of "health concerns". Humans however are certainly omnivores and simply put, the fact we can thrive on a mixed diet should be evidence enough without any more investigation.

We have the right to choose what we eat, as a result of the hard working meat eating generations before us. Interestingly, since the vegan movement draw unsupported correlation between facts, can you explain why the average life span on a human has increased proportionaly to the average consumption of red meat? Or the correlation age plays in the distribution of causes of death?


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> Humans have salivary glands - this is inconsistent with herbivorous mammals
> 
> Humans do not have fermentation vats like almost all specialised plant eaters
> 
> ...



Well articulated ^


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Yes the likes show that someone shares your opinion or that you are talking sense.
> Yes you have no facts and even to the degree you distrust the CSIRO and accuse its findings fraudulent, even though when read they are just common sense.
> You seem pretty out there I give you that.
> 
> ...




What would be the point in me posting this within a Vegan or Vegetarian forum?
I told you it is not my goal to get 'likes'
I am sure I would find alot of people that would be able to take part in a Meat/Dairy poll in a Vegan forum?

You obviously have way to much time on your hands to go stalking my previous history.
I admittedly don't spend alot of time on here anymore, I find the site has changed alot over the past few years & I have also found my time has been occupied elsewhere, but I have never stopped helping people with advice & keeping of their reptiles, infact I cant remember the last week that went by that I have not assisted someone with advice, please don't pretend to know me & what I am about because I choose not to eat meat.
I am not sure why you feel the need to make this personal?

I have not said or done anything offensive & I wont apologise for having a different opinion to the majority of people on here, I am not a follower & I never will be.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

Wing_Nut said:


> Humans have salivary glands - this is inconsistent with herbivorous mammals
> 
> Humans do not have fermentation vats like almost all specialised plant eaters
> 
> ...



''Many anthropologists and medical experts attest to the fact that humans are completely herbivorous, plant-eating creatures. Dr. William Roberts, editor-in-chief of The American Journal of Cardiology and a professor at Baylor University, states, "Human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh—which contains cholesterol and saturated fat—was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." Dr. Milton Mills wrote an indisputable essay about human physiology as well. In their book The Vegetarian Way, nutritionists Virginia and Mark Messina compiled an easy-to-understand chart comparing human bodies to those of herbivores, omnivores and carnivores. That chart is shown just below:






Let's compare the bodies of humans and herbivores to the bodies of carnivores and omnivores. First, the length of intestines in humans and other herbivores falls somewhere between 7 to 13 times the length of the trunk/torso section of the body (I am being generous compared to the research of Mills and the Messinas). In contrast, the length of intestines in carnivores/omnivores is only 3 to 6 times the length of the trunk/torso. (The length of the trunk/torso is used as the means of comparison rather than overall body length or height because humans are bipedal animals whereas most other animals are quadrupeds.) Moreover, the interior surface of human intestines is heavily fluted and striated, whereas the interior intestinal surfaces of carnivores/omnivores tend to be smooth in comparison. The relatively short intestinal length in carnivores/omnivores, along with the relatively smooth interior surface, allow rotting animal flesh, animal protein, casein, cholesterol, trans fatty acids and the excessive amount of fat found in all animal products to pass through quickly; that is why it's impossible for any real carnivore/omnivore to clog their arteries. Clogged arteries, however, affects more than 50% percent of all meat, dairy and egg-eaters in this day and age! In previous generations atherosclerosis affected around 35% of the meat, dairy and egg-eating population. The only surprising aspect of the aforementioned study was the scientists' refusal to blame animal products as the main cause of atherosclerosis. Scientists, however, like all meat- dairy and egg-eating addicts, succumb to the same idiocy and incoherency of addiction-related problem-solving, too. Fortunately, some medical professionals aren't addicts and are capable of explaining the truth. Dr. William Castelli, director of the Framingham Heart Study (the world's longest running heart study), supports the aforementioned findings with additional claims about cancer rates dropping 60 percent if people stopped eating meat, cheese, milk and eggs. Other dietary and non-dietary factors can affect heart health, too. Sugar, the excessive amount of fat found in oils, stress, a lack of sleep, the excessive amount of refined carbohydrates found in white rice, white bread, and pasta, smoking tobacco, and a lack of exercise can wreak havoc on the body. Therefore, it is essential to eat plant-based foods exclusively, and control the non-dietary factors to the best of your ability.
Humans and other herbivores have carbohydrate digestive enzymes in their saliva, meaning our bodies were created for fruits and vegetables. Animal products have no complex carbohydrates, which is why carnivores/omnivores lack carbohydrate digestive enzymes in their saliva. Many meat, dairy and egg-eaters try disingenuously to exploit the fact that humans are unable to digest cellulose, and discard it during the digestion process. However, cellulose is neither beneficial nor damaging to us in any way, so our inability to digest it is irrelevant. Bonobos, which are humans' closest animal relative as they share 99.5 percent of our DNA, cannot digest cellulose either, and that's because bonobos, like humans, are fruitarians/ frugivores (ultra herbivores). The REAL issue at hand is whether humans can properly process and digest animal protein, casein, cholesterol, the excessive amount of fat found in all animal products, and the 2-9 percent of naturally-occurring trans fatty acids found in meat and dairy, which are the main agents responsible for nearly every disease. The tired and shopworn "argument from cellulose indigestion" is just another diversionary tactic used by meat, dairy, and egg addicts.

Human teeth are broad, short, blunt, flat and spade-shaped like the teeth of other herbivores, not the fanged mouths of carnivores/omnivores. Most herbivores have canines, incisors and molars, which are used for ripping rough foods like apples, carrots or nuts. Some canines are also used for posturing; they are present to strike fear into the heart of any predator thinking about attacking. This is why hippos (vegans) have the fiercest canines on the planet! For the record, many people believe that lions are the kings of the jungle. But if you put a lion in a room with a hippo, the lion would look for a way out because nobody ****s with a hippo! And if you truly think that humans have carnivorous/omnivorous teeth, compare the two with the photograph just below. Then stop at a pet store today and buy a rawhide dog bone (no soft, chewy modern-day nylon bones allowed). When you get home, gnaw on it for a few hours and destroy it with those powerful teeth of yours. ADAPTT hereby absolves itself of any lawsuits when you break and crack your weak little herbivorous teeth and the dentist charges you $10,000 to fix your mouth!






If your lower jaw moves from side to side—and you grind and chew your food—then you are unequivocally herbivorous. The jaws of carnivores/omnivores only move up and down, vertically. They don't chew; they just rip and swallow. Humans sweat through their pores to cool down. We don't pant like dogs, cats or lions to cool ourselves down. There are no claws on the human hand either, although claws are a trademark of the carnivore/omnivore. When we drive down the highway and spot a dead animal on the side of the road, I'm quite sure people don't get excited, start to salivate, come to a screeching halt, jump out of their car, scare the crows away and start munching on the dead animal. Real carnivores/omnivores eat dead, rotting animals on the side of the road. We always cook meat before eating it, even though lions don't have gazelle barbeques in the jungles of Africa.To prove beyond a reasonable doubt that humans are herbivores, place a two-year old child in a crib with a bunny rabbit and an apple. If the child eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, then I'll eat a steak sandwich that's been dipped in ice cream! Humans have no carnivorous/omnivorous instincts whatsoever when we're born, young and growing up. There isn't a speck of carnivorism nor an iota of omnivorism in us. People become inured to the taste of blood, flesh, veins, muscles, tendons, cow secretions [milk], hen-*** droppings [eggs] and bee vomit [honey] after they're forced down our throats during childhood.With all this physiological evidence at hand, one might wonder why many physiologists and evolutionary biologists—even the most brilliant and widely-renowned evolutionary biologists such as Richard Dawkins—would continue to indulge their addiction to meat, dairy products and eggs, and publicly rationalize their addiction in ways that wouldn't do justice to a 13-year-old. The answer is simple and clear-cut: Scientists are human, and because humans are fallible and weak, they fall prey to addictions of all kinds. And when that happens, the rational mind, supposedly invoked to combat the addiction, usually falls by the wayside. It is only when the addict brings what he feels into accord with what he knows, his ethics into accord with the scientific facts, and the contents of his stomach into accord with the contents of his rational brain, that he can break the cycle of addiction that envelops and destroys him''​


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

yes you are comparing omnivores with carnivores. You really don't understand do you 
You have quoted people that are pro vegetarian and not objective at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Humans are Omnivores [h=1]Introduction[/h]There are a number of popular myths about vegetarianism that have no scientific basis in fact. One of these myths is that man is naturally a vegetarian because our bodies resemble plant eaters, not carnivores. In fact we are omnivores, capable of either eating meat or plant foods. The following addresses the unscientific theory of man being only a plant eater. 
[h=1]Confusion between Taxonomy and Diet[/h]Much of the misinformation on the issue of man's being a natural vegetarian arises from confusion between taxonomic (in biology, the procedure of classifying organisms in established categories) and dietary characteristics. 
Members of the mammalian Order Carnivora may or may not be exclusive meat eaters. Those which eat only meat are carnivores. Dietary adaptations are not limited by a simple dichotomy between herbivores (strict vegetarians) and carnivores (strict meat-eaters), but include frugivores (predominantly fruit), gramnivores (nuts, seeds, etc.), folivores (leaves), insectivores (carnivore-insects and small vertebrates), etc. Is is also important to remember that the relation between the form (anatomy/physiology) and function (behavior) is not always one to one. Individual anatomical structures can serve one or more functions and similar functions can be served by several forms. 
[h=1]Omnivorism[/h]The key category in the discussion of human diet is omnivores, which are defined as generalized feeders, with neither carnivore nor herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food, and who are capable of consuming and do consume both animal protein and vegetation. They are basically *opportunistic* feeders (survive by eating what is available) with more generalized anatomical and physiological traits, especially the dentition (teeth). All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is omnivorous and would include meat. We are not, however, required to consume animal protein. We have a choice. 
[h=1]The Great Apes[/h]There are very few frugivores amongst the mammals in general, and primates in particular. The only apes that are predominantly fruit eaters (gibbons and siamangs) are atypical for apes in many behavioral and ecological respects and eat substantial amounts of vegetation. Orangutans are similar, with no observations in the wild of eating meat. 
Gorillas are more typically vegetarian, with less emphasis on fruit. Several years ago a very elegant study was done on the relationship between body size and diet in primates (and some other mammal groups). The only primates on the list with pure diets were the very small species (which are entirely insectivorous) and the largest (which specialize in vegetarian diet). However, the spectrum of dietary preferences reflect the daily food intake needs of each body size and the relative availability of food resources in a tropical forest. Our closest relatives among the apes are the chimpanzees (i.e., anatomically, behaviorally, genetically, and evolutionarily), who frequently kill and eat other mammals (including other primates). 
[h=1]Evidence of Humans as Omnivores[/h][h=2]Archeological Record[/h]As far back as it can be traced, clearly the archeological record indicates an omnivorous diet for humans that included meat. Our ancestry is among the hunter/gatherers from the beginning. Once domestication of food sources began, it included both animals and plants. 
[h=2]Cell Types[/h]Relative number and distribution of cell types, as well as structural specializations, are more important than overall length of the intestine to determining a typical diet. Dogs are typical carnivores, but their intestinal characteristics have more in common with omnivores. Wolves eat quite a lot of plant material. 
[h=2]Fermenting Vats[/h]Nearly all plant eaters have fermenting vats (enlarged chambers where foods sits and microbes attack it). Ruminants like cattle and deer have forward sacs derived from remodeled esophagus and stomach. Horses, rhinos, and colobine monkeys have posterior, hindgut sacs. Humans have no such specializations. 
[h=2]Jaws[/h]Although evidence on the structure and function of human hands and jaws, behavior, and evolutionary history also either support an omnivorous diet or fail to support strict vegetarianism, the best evidence comes from our teeth. 
The short canines in humans are a functional consequence of the enlarged cranium and associated reduction of the size of the jaws. In primates, canines function as both defense weapons and visual threat devices. Interestingly, the primates with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets. In archeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken for those of human teeth when found in archeological excavations. 
[h=2]Salivary Glands[/h]These indicate we could be omnivores. Saliva and urine data vary, depending on diet, not taxonomic group. 
[h=2]Intestines[/h]Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. We are intermediate between the two groups. 
[h=1]Conclusion[/h]Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns. 
[Dr. McArdle is a vegetarian and currently Scientific Advisor to The American Anti-Vivisection Society. He is an anatomist and a primatologist.]


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

I think it is you that is having trouble understanding.

You need to understand that you have already had your opinion, you have made your views known loud & clear - no one is forcing you to stick around.
I am not strapping you down & force feeding you my diet so what is your problem?


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

I have no problem. Do you? I'm simply correcting the fiction you post.

- - - Updated - - -

As it stands people are calling you a troll. Others have said you have offended them and some have tried to explain their point of view which you are not interested in.
I can only guess you are on some sort of vegan campaign or the others are right and you are just being a troll. Which I hope is not true.


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## Newhere (Dec 3, 2013)

We are fruitivores or whatever its called, if we were vegetarians we would not be where we are today. We eat meat because we cover so many different parts of this planet and its the only way to sustain a population of our size and also because it allows us to live in areas that don't support the diet we evolved with. If we all lived like you then we wouldn't have the resources to sustain our population.

Also I could cut out meat and dairy and animal products from my diet but I have noticed that every vegitarian I have met is skinny and judgemental and they all act superior to meat eating people and I would never want to be like that. You say you just want to understand why people eat meat but your intentions and your attitude is obvious and I think you should keep your diet to yourself and stop worrying about other people and what they eat. After all if you did turn us all vegetarian you are going to be paying a fortune for your tofu.


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## moosenoose (Dec 3, 2013)

Without the meat eaters you'd have no such thing as a vegan etc. As a race we wouldn't have survived  Man was never designed to simply eat tofu and beans


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## saximus (Dec 3, 2013)

Newhere said:


> If we all lived like you then we wouldn't have the resources to sustain our population.



I've actually heard that the opposite is true. If the land and resources used to raise things like cattle were actually used for plant based food production, it would be much more productive and efficient. I'll have to wait till I get home on a real computer and research that though (unless someone knows the answer?)


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## Stuart (Dec 3, 2013)

Righty ho. 

The original question was not in relation to is being Vegan good for you or why you should convert to it. As it stands, the question was asked if people eat Meat and Dairy with a choice of reasons why. A follow up question was then asked if people have ever thought about a change. 



Gecko :) said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am interested to know who eats Meat & Dairy & if so what is your reasoning for consuming:
> 
> ...


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## littlemay (Dec 3, 2013)

I think everyone here needs to stop thinking about meat and veg and start thinking about taking a nice big chill pill.


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## Newhere (Dec 3, 2013)

Snipercap I'm gonna give a big thumbs down to your previous comment, sometimes a simple question can lead to a debate and this is what has happened. If the thread was ONLY meant for the purpose of having the question answered then gecko wouldn't have tried to convice everybody that eating meat is bad for you and posted various links supporting her theory. Also I feel that MY lifestyle as a meat eater has been insulted and while it may not be an alternative lifestyle you should still protect my opinions and beliefs.


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## Snowman (Dec 3, 2013)

It's clear what the objectives of the op are. Just delete the thread before it damages her reputation too much.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

What would be the point in closing the Thread? I dont want the thread closed & don't believe it should be.

What do you mean before it damages my reputation too much?

My reputation as a person & as a Reptile breeder has nothing to do with the diet I choose.


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## Umbral (Dec 3, 2013)

Looking at tools from prehistoric man it appears that either we liked to kill animals for fun and clothing or we have eaten meat for a vary long time. This thread is not about what man has evolved to eat though it's about why we eat what we do. If someone only wants to eat wasabi through their nose while standing on their head because it makes them feel healthier it's not up to me to tell them they are wrong..... I would really like to watch them though!


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## justin91 (Dec 3, 2013)

Snowman said:


> It's clear what the objectives of the op are.



Yep, like how she asked us why we eat what we eat.... Its just everyone else misunderstood what she asked therefore it is not her fault this thread has become what it is. This is a very touchy subject by the looks of it. You eat what you eat because you believe thats what healthiest for you. Gecko eats what she eats because thats what she believes in.

Stop throwing stupid facts at each other. Your all loosing a argument that cannot be won. Its like trying to tell a Athiest there is a god or a Christian there isn't one.


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## Wing_Nut (Dec 3, 2013)

Many more scientists attest that humans are omnivores, and this is not hardly subjective evidence, nor does it offer any “proof” that would suggest humans are not. While the information quoted is correct, it is very incomplete, and has been selected in a manner to paint a very once sided picture. 

Pure carnivores have very simple digestive systems, essentially a long piece of pipe with a bulge near the beginning. It’s important to note that all carnivores digestive systems are remarkably similar and they all function exactly the same way. They are as stated, very short. A carnivore’s stomach acts as a reservoir, allowing one small meal to suffice for many hours. Intake that cannot be digested – raw vegetable matter, cellulose, bone – pass through unchanged (this is very important to note). Digestion of food in a carnivore is performed by enzymes produced by glands in the animals own body and all the absorption of nutrients from that food is through the wall of the small intestine. 

By comparison, pure herbivores have very complicated digestive systems. The first difference between a herbivore and a carnivore is the sheer amount of food the herbivore is forced to eat. While a carnivore can manage on a small meal a day, a herbivore eats so much it is almost continually eating. The process by which a herbivore digests its food is vasty complicated, involves bacteria and micro-organisms (which they are not born with), enzymes, and often a complicated series of stomachs and intestines. The digestive systems of herbivores are very wasteful and inefficient.

A humans digestive system is remarkable similar to a carnivore in form, digestive enzymes and length. The biggest difference is that our saliva does contain amylase to help digest starch, however we do not have a digestive enzyme that will break down plant cells walls and release that starch. We also do not possess bacteria and micro enzymes to do the job. If we eat a largely plant-based diet, the environment in our colons will change from alkaline to acid. While this will break down plant material, no apsorbtion of the nutrients these contain takes place. This is why many of us have gas from large amounts of vegetable matter, and why many vegetarians lose weight. 

The totality of the evidence demonstrates that the human digestive track is extremely inefficient with coping with foods of a vegetable origin, with no bacteria and enzymes capable of breaking down the cell walls to release the small amounts of energy inside, generally we can only eat these foods once they have been processed (mainly by cooking) and given nature intended us to eat our food raw, they simply cannot form a significant part of our diet. During evolution we lived well, our diets were largely animal protein and fat, and this was supplemented with wild fruits during lean times. As more than 99.9% of our genetic makeup was evolved before we as a species started to heat and cook foods, it stands to reason that it must be the correct diet for us today.

Furthermore, if you put a child in the natural environment, they will in fact eat bugs, leaves, grass, and fruit, pretty much whatever they can “fit” into their mouths. The need to learn and explore is a direct result of our developing brain function which simply could not have occurred without animal protein. Many humans eat raw meat, it is a common practice and is by far the healthiest option. Cooking meat is a very modern practice in the evolution of humans.

Cancer rates are directly attributed to age. Humans simply live longer, and are exposed to many chemicals over longer periods of time. Medication that lets us live longer is likely the biggest cause of cancer in the human race.

Based on the above reasoning, I will eat meat, and dairy, as to date, these is little scientific evidence to suggest that the tens of billions of humans before me where wrong. The evidence gathered from ancient tribes untouched by western ways, still existing today, would suggest that a diet consisting of almost entirely animal protein would indicate that the problem does not lie in the food products, but the lifestyle we lead.


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## Tristan (Dec 3, 2013)

i eat meat, its tasty, and part of a well rounded diet, i agree its not essential to a healthy lifestyle, you can get the goodness from meat from the right vegetables etc.

as for the human digestive system, you must not forget the fact that our jaws\saliva are far better for predigesting foods so that our stomach and intestines don't need to be as complex, and the human body is very clever, if you eat more greens in your diet then the bacteria in your mouth and intestines designed to handle plant material increase, the human body is something like 70-80% bacteria and where\how you live influences the amount and type of bacteria in your body. 

have a watch of some of the Catalyst vids on health in the bellow link, most are short vids 5 min or so.

Catalyst: Health Stories - ABC TV Science

Catalyst: Ancient Teeth - ABC TV Science


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## moosenoose (Dec 3, 2013)

I wouldn't eat meat if it wasn't so delicious


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## borntobnude (Dec 3, 2013)

Having just come back from a visit to the local supermarket I think we all need to eat less to be able to afford the herps that we love !!

And it wasn't just the price of meat but the fruit & veg also :cry:


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## moosenoose (Dec 3, 2013)

The meat is affordable if you cut out the fruit and the veg


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## RedFox (Dec 3, 2013)

Wow this thread racked up the posts pretty quickly. I wouldn't be recommending soy and almond products as a staple. Almonds while delicious and healthy in moderation, can cause high cholesterol. Soy has being link to alzheimers.

I eat meat and would say I have a fairly healthy lifestyle. 

Is it possible that the benefits you are feeling Gecko are actually partially due to a placebo. Recently there was some research done on a low sugar that suggested some of the benefits felt by participants was due to a placebo effect.


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## jack (Dec 3, 2013)

Thankyou for answering my query regarding the inverted commas around 'health'. 
Now can you please tell me what you feed your pets?


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

RedFox said:


> Wow this thread racked up the posts pretty quickly. I wouldn't be recommending soy and almond products as a staple. Almonds while delicious and healthy in moderation, can cause high cholesterol. Soy has being link to alzheimers.
> 
> I eat meat and would say I have a fairly healthy lifestyle.
> 
> Is it possible that the benefits you are feeling Gecko are actually partially due to a placebo. Recently there was some research done on a low sugar that suggested some of the benefits felt by participants was due to a placebo effect.


I agree & am certainly not & havent recommended soy or Almonld milk as a staple.

I am doubtful that it is a placebo effect, mind you I have also cut out alot of processed foods & adopted a daily juicing habit & have to admit that these would also be huge contributing factors to the improvements I have felt.
But as mentioned I am not going off my experiences alone.
There is plenty of evidence available.


- - - Updated - - -



jack said:


> Thankyou for answering my query regarding the inverted commas around 'health'.
> Now can you please tell me what you feed your pets?



Sure, I feed my pets what ever is required for them to be healthy.
ie Their natural diet.


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## andynic07 (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I am sorry if me putting 'health' is in anyway offensive? I fail to see it is.
> In fact it nearly got left off all together as I don't believe it should even be an option on the poll.
> Not because I am ignorant because I am the one that created the Poll so I have set it out the way I wanted it set out.
> 
> ...


Your feeling of well being may not attributed to the placebo effect but with so many changes to your diet you can not claim with any certainty that it has anything to do with not eating meat anymore. I would bet that if you kept eating a very similar diet as you are but added lean red meat twice a week and fish twice a week that you would not feel any different than you do now.


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

Whether or not I added meat back into my diet wouldn't make a difference to any studies or evidence that has been produced over the past years though.
But there is no doubt that cutting sugar & processed crap out has done me wonders.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 3, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I would bet that if you kept eating a very similar diet as you are but added lean red meat twice a week and fish twice a week that you would not feel any different than you do now.



I tend to agree.Have found that I feel a lot better merely by cutting out as much sugar as possible,cutting down on caffeine and not eating junk food.


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## cement (Dec 3, 2013)

I don't beleive that animal protein causes cancer, but I have learnt that it promotes the growth of existing cancer. So if you have cancer and are being treated for it cutting out the animal protein will help shrink and reduce the growth.
Don't ask for details, I am simply putting out a different perspective and can't be bothered reading the thread or going into it any further. 
But if you don't have cancer just enjoy your life while you can!


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## Gecko :) (Dec 3, 2013)

I used to have the same attitude as alot of you guys.
I ate meat pretty much every single day & used to think Vegans were a little strange.

Then 1 day my sister showed me Forks over knives & it seriously changed my life.
The more I looked into it the more information I found.
There are endless studies that have been done proving that animal protein feeds cancer cells.
It is a fact whether or not you want to look into it is up to you.

But those that are interested I would love to hear your thoughts after you have done some more research & watch some of the links I have provided.
They are not made by a bunch of stoned hippies or Animal activists some of the docos are put together by actual doctors & scientists & nutritionists, people that know all about this kind of stuff.
So don't take my word for it, see for yourself.


- - - Updated - - -

For anyone that may be interested I thoroughly recommend watching the following: 

Forks over Knives:
Forks Over Knives - YouTube

Food Matters:
The Food Matters Free Screening 2013 | FOODMATTERS®

Food Inc:
FOOD INC - YouTube

Best Speech You Will Ever Hear:
Watch a Life-Changing Speech! << ADAPTT :: Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow

Fat, sick & nearly dead:
Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead - Official Film - YouTube

I would be interested in hearing peoples views after watching even 1 of these docos.
I truly believe watching these docos will change your life.
If you dont want to watch all of them do yourself a favour & at least watch 1.


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## borntobnude (Dec 3, 2013)

The best way of getting a balanced diet would be to return to eating seasonally available foods , Talking to some young chefs in a fancy pants catering company last week and they could not believe that things like Water, rock and honey dew melons were seasonal when I started cooking . Then I went on to tell about the types of lettuce available and the many fruit and veg that just were not there every day of the year .Sourcing meats locally was also done years ago but now there are not farms close to the cities . 


Our modern diet of over processed crap is the cause of a fair amount of health problems ,Cutting out the big processed items ie flour and sugar would probably do us all the world of good . I have been doing work where a few dinners were gluten free and been using gluten free flour /rice flour / almond meal and a few other things and making some very edible food.


Just noticed how many people have voted compared to the number of posts :lol:


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## bigjoediver (Dec 3, 2013)

Unless you are growing everything yourself ( including your meat and eggs and dairy ) using untainted feed and water god knows what crap you are ingesting. The amount of pesticides, herbicides not to mention antibiotics and hormones used in agriculture and food manufacture is horrifying. I would be more worried about these than a moderate serve of meat. 

Joe. 

Yes I eat meat ( my own cattle ).


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## Kenno (Dec 3, 2013)

As a student of nutritional medicine I feel obligated to say this, 

The day you stop eating good quality pasture fed and finished meat, is the day your body starts to die. 

Have your own beliefs and do whatever you wish to do but I cannot be anymore frank about this...becoming a vegan will literally kill you.


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## Tristan (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> I
> For anyone that may be interested I thoroughly recommend watching the following:
> .



im sorry Gecko, but the videos you linked are heavily bias and lacking in scientific credibility, you need to watch videos like the bellow, that are done with Medical people showing medial data both good and bad taking a non bias and purely factual point of view.

Catalyst: Heart of the Matter Part 1 - Dietary Villains - ABC TV Science Heart of the Matter Part 1 - Dietary Villains Pt1 (30min)

Catalyst: Heart of the Matter Part 2 - Cholesterol Drug War - ABC TV Science Heart of the Matter Part 1 - Dietary Villains Pt2 (30min)

Catalyst: Exercise is Medicine - ABC TV Science Exercise is medicine (8.3min)

Catalyst: Exercise overdose - ABC TV Science Exercise overdose (6min)

Catalyst: Toxic Sugar? - ABC TV Science Toxic Sugar (18min)


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## slide (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> ...what makes you think we are Omnivore?
> Show me factual evidence that we are suppose to be Omnivore?


Check out this article written by an Assistant Professor of amatomy/physical anthropology. 

He is convinced that humans are adapted to be omnivorous due to many physiological characteristics. 


http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-05/959372412.Ot.r.html

Aaron


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## Darlyn (Dec 3, 2013)

This is a strange question to ask people. Kinda like asking "why do you wear clothes?" "Why do you
like having friends?" "Why do you scrunch or fold your toilet paper?"
It's the sort of open ended question you ask when you want to deliver an anthem of "your opinion" in response.
I eat meat, I drink dairy, I do so because I enjoy it, it keeps me healthy and luckily for me it is easily available.
Depriving your body because of your beliefs is fine. Asking other people why they don't do it seems just a tad rude to me.
I don't care what you eat or why, so why do you care why other people eat what they do?


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## Mighty_Moose (Dec 3, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> It is amazing how defensive you all are?!
> Although I am not really surprised at the reception I have received, ppl seem to be very set in their ways & very closed minded & defensive about their meat.



Is it really "meat eaters" who seem to be close minded? That is one of the prime "quotes" used by vegans and religious people alike. "You don't agree with me, you must be closed minded"

As for saying that we're not designed like other meat eaters etc and we're not designed to eat meat... Explain what that good ol' acid in our stomachs is designed for and in what other animals does it occur?

Omnivorous for a reason.


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## Jazzz (Dec 4, 2013)

Ive been a vegetarian for 7 years, and have seriously cut back on dairy in the last year. I take no supplements and donate blood every 3 months so have high iron levels. 

Im vegetarian for the cruelty and for the environment. I find it extremely hypocritical to call yourself an environmentalist and still support the meat trade. 

Pork and bacon for me is especially bad, sow stalls and the factory farming practices make me feel ill. These animals are as smart as a 3yr old child, much smarter then your dogs. 

If anyone thinks meat is healthier please read 'the china study' the most comprehensive lifestyle study ever conducted. Should answer a few questions =]

- - - Updated - - -

Heres some reputable sources

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929

the basics - A total of 2,939 incident cancer cases were identified. The multivariate HR of overall cancer risk among vegetarians compared with non-vegetarians was statistically significant [HR, 0.92; 95% confidence interval (CI), 0.85-0.99] for both genders combined. Also, a statistically significant association was found between vegetarian diet and cancers of the gastrointestinal tract (HR, 0.76; 95% CI, 0.63-0.90). When analyzing the association of specific vegetarian dietary patterns, vegan diets showed statistically significant protection for overall cancer incidence (HR, 0.84; 95% CI, 0.72-0.99) in both genders combined and for female-specific cancers (HR, 0.66; 95% CI, 0.47-0.92). Lacto-ovo-vegetarians appeared to be associated with decreased risk of cancers of the gastrointestinal system (HR, 0.75; 95% CI, 0.60-0.92).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21983060

Participants were 15,200 men and 26,187 women (17.3% Blacks) across the U.S. and Canada who were free of diabetes and who provided demographic, anthropometric, lifestyle and dietary data. Participants were grouped as vegan, lacto ovo vegetarian, pesco vegetarian, semi-vegetarian or non-vegetarian (reference group). A follow-up questionnaire after two years elicited information on the development of diabetes. Cases of diabetes developed in 0.54% of vegans, 1.08% of lacto ovo vegetarians, 1.29% of pesco vegetarians, 0.92% of semi-vegetarians and 2.12% of non-vegetarians. Blacks had an increased risk compared to non-Blacks (odds ratio [OR] 1.364; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.093-1.702). In multiple logistic regression analysis controlling for age, gender, education, income, television watching, physical activity, sleep, alcohol use, smoking and BMI, vegans (OR 0.381; 95% CI 0.236-0.617), lacto ovo vegetarians (OR 0.618; 95% CI 0.503-0.760) and semi-vegetarians (OR 0.486, 95% CI 0.312-0.755) had a lower risk of diabetes than non-vegetarians. In non-Blacks vegan, lacto ovo and semi-vegetarian diets were protective against diabetes (OR 0.429, 95% CI 0.249-0.740; OR 0.684, 95% CI 0.542-0.862; OR 0.501, 95% CI 0.303-0.827); among Blacks vegan and lacto ovo vegetarian diets were protective (OR 0.304, 95% CI 0.110-0.842; OR 0.472, 95% CI 0.270-0.825). These associations were strengthened when BMI was removed from the analyses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

There were 2570 deaths among 73,308 participants during a mean follow-up time of 5.79 years. The mortality rate was 6.05 (95% CI, 5.82-6.29) deaths per 1000 person-years. The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97). The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01); in lacto-ovo-vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00); in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13) compared with nonvegetarians. Significant associations with vegetarian diets were detected for cardiovascular mortality, noncardiovascular noncancer mortality, renal mortality, and endocrine mortality. Associations in men were larger and more often significant than were those in women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19351712

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m(2)) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m(2)), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m(2)), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m(2)), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m(2)). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians.

literally searched 'vegetarian' in pubmed, the US national institute of healths journal article library. These were the first 4 articles, all peer reviewed and published findings.

- - - Updated - - -



Newhere said:


> We are fruitivores or whatever its called, if we were vegetarians we would not be where we are today. We eat meat because we cover so many different parts of this planet and its the only way to sustain a population of our size and also because it allows us to live in areas that don't support the diet we evolved with.* If we all lived like you then we wouldn't have the resources to sustain our population.
> *
> Also I could cut out meat and dairy and animal products from my diet but I have noticed that every vegitarian I have met is skinny and judgemental and they all act superior to meat eating people and I would never want to be like that. You say you just want to understand why people eat meat but your intentions and your attitude is obvious and I think you should keep your diet to yourself and stop worrying about other people and what they eat. After all if you did turn us all vegetarian you are going to be paying a fortune for your tofu.



Actually the opposite is true. Heres some quick stats - 



the production of 1 kg wheat costs 1,300 L water
the production of 1 kg broken rice costs 3,400 L water
the production of 1 kg eggs costs 3,300 L water
the production of 1 kg beef costs 15,000 L water

70% of our grain stocks in Australia go towards feeding livestock. Every Kg of meat is around 6kg of grain. 

Also the Co2 impacts, quickly. Per Kg of beef you emit 13,300g Carbon dioxide equivalents, as it actually produces methane which is 20 times worse. For a fruit is is 300-550g of equivalents.

- - - Updated - - -



Snowman said:


> The thing is most people here believe in science. We believe in evolution and fact. So religion and fads that are not part of fact but rather fiction don't go will with this group in general.
> We like facts and the facts have been mentioned. But you appear to closed minded to listen to them. It reminds my of the debates about creation vs evolution. *We evolved eating meat and it is an important part of our genetic make up*. This is the main reason we eat meat if you are truly interested in why we eat meat.
> 
> In much the same vain religious people always want to be able to "share" their new found love and joy for their lifestyle and are frustrated when people do not want to hear their message. It's not that people are closed mind as you are labeling them. It's that they have decided for themselves how to live.



We evolved hunting and gathering. We ate small portions of meat and expended a lot of energy hunting it. Also our average lifespan was 25... 
As a species we are evolving, we no longer need meat to survive and can live perfectly healthily on a plant based diet. I like to also think we are evolving emotionally with our greater understanding of animals and the environment, however, this thread has made me doubt that greatly. 

The younger generation seems to be catching on to this concept though. More and more people are realising that its unnecessary and that one little bite of food isnt worth an animals life.


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## thomasssss (Dec 4, 2013)

would it be acceptable if i started a poll of my own , i will title it why dont you eat nothing but veges , then i will have a number of chocies , health and tradition being some of those , then at the end i will throw in a sneaky little question thats designed to open up an opportunity for me to rave on about how great meat is 

that question will be " why dont you become a vegan " for me its health reasons" 

would that be acceptable? if not then why is this , my threads only this one in reverse


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## Jazzz (Dec 4, 2013)

thomasssss said:


> would it be acceptable if i started a poll of my own , i will title it why dont you eat nothing but veges , then i will have a number of chocies , health and tradition being some of those , then at the end i will throw in a sneaky little question thats designed to open up an opportunity for me to rave on about how great meat is
> 
> that question will be " why dont you become a vegan " for me its health reasons"
> 
> would that be acceptable? if not then why is this , my threads only this one in reverse



I think its great to have a debate once in a while. Exchange ideas, clear up a lot of misconceptions, as i have done above. 

Its when people start to be disrespectful about a topic a lot of people actually greatly care for that it becomes an issue.


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## justin91 (Dec 4, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I think its great to have a debate once in a while. Exchange ideas, clear up a lot of misconceptions, as i have done above.
> 
> Its when people start to be disrespectful about a topic a lot of people actually greatly care for that it becomes an issue.
> .



I'm a meat eaters and I couldn't said it any better.. I've noticed a lot more hatred on this thread from meat eaters then vegans or vegies


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## Stuart (Dec 5, 2013)

Please play nice, any further arguments or personal attacks will be met with an infraction and deletion

Thread reopened.


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## andynic07 (Dec 5, 2013)

I am a meat eater and eat meat in moderation, I eat it for the flavour and the nutrients it gives me. It is also a tradition in my family as long as I can remember. I would like to question that someone can say that an environmentalist can find it hypocritical that people care about the environment because they eat meat whilst using power on a computer on a discussion about the subject and whilst using power to keep a snake just for self pleasure and then accuse others of personal attacks. I think that I am an environmentalist to some degree because I care for the environment and try to make it better in some way but would not think to call those who care about the environment but do less than I a hypocrite, instead I would appreciate their effort and try to encourage more.


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## Smithers (Dec 5, 2013)

Maybe asking a nutritionists will get the most factual answer....the pyramid of daily recommended foods suggests for the maximum benefit to the body is to eat meat and drink milk along with the others listed.


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## Newhere (Dec 5, 2013)

Ok the production of wheat is a little bit less than eggs, now can I have some stats on the production of fruit and veg because if I was to cut out meat and dairy I would need more than just wheat. Also what are the impacts to the land by large scale fruit and veg production compared to meat?


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## phatty (Dec 5, 2013)

its funny when people talk about cruelty to animals we are animals our selves. have you ever seen a lion take down a gazelle. I eat meat and love it why substitute some thing we have been doing since the dorm of time.


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

Jazz, I'm with you with the cruelty and stuff. Always have been.


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## The_Geeza (Dec 5, 2013)

All to there own.... English Sunday roast yummmmmy and never give away a good eye fillet... So I eat meat k so bite me


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## Newhere (Dec 5, 2013)

Thats right phatty we are animals and anything we do to the environment is a part of our survival and to sustain the population we have and to enjoy a good quality of life, I'm sure animals don't worry about the environment before they fart or do things that are needed for them to survive and while we could do things better and reduce our impacts on the environment I don't think cutting out meat or dairy is a good idea at all.

Also you have to question if these people really do care about the environment considering they are on the internet (on a forum about keeping animals of all) and living in a house made of timber and obviously using power and creating the same carbon footprint as the rest of us.


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## Tristan (Dec 5, 2013)

Catalyst: Lab Burger - ABC TV Science (10min)

that vid is about the development of lab produced meat, I'm just curious would any of the people who partake in eating flesh be willing to eat meat produced in a lab assuming that the lab product is comparable in taste\texture etc. 

and would those who choose not to eat meat because of the cruelty to animal factor be willing to eat meat produced in a lab as it no longer has any impact on the well being of any animal other than yourself?

Edit* apologies i should have added my own opinion\answer. 

as a meat eater i would not have any issues with eating lab produced meat providing it was of adequate taste and texture and of cause nutritional value.


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## andynic07 (Dec 5, 2013)

Tristan said:


> Catalyst: Lab Burger - ABC TV Science (10min)
> 
> that vid is about the development of lab produced meat, I'm just curious would any of the people who partake in eating flesh be willing to eat meat produced in a lab assuming that the lab product is comparable in taste\texture etc.
> 
> and would those who choose not to eat meat because of the cruelty to animal factor be willing to eat meat produced in a lab as it no longer has any impact on the well being of any animal other than yourself?


Good questions, I as a meat eater would be willing to give the idea a go but have not watched the video yet so hold the right to change my mind.


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

Tristan said:


> Catalyst: Lab Burger - ABC TV Science (10min)
> 
> that vid is about the development of lab produced meat, I'm just curious would any of the people who partake in eating flesh be willing to eat meat produced in a lab assuming that the lab product is comparable in taste\texture etc.
> 
> ...


I have tried fake meat but I couldn't stand the texture


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## Tristan (Dec 5, 2013)

princessparrot said:


> I have tried fake meat but I couldn't stand the texture



this is not fake meat were talking about, this is real meat grown in a lab.

ok if a 10min vid is to hard\long for some to watch ill give a quick text breakdown. (no this is not a snide comment, i understand some people don't have time\ability to play vids) 

lab takes tissue sample from a cows butt, from that tissue sample extract stem cells. 
put stem cells in fluid filled with yummy goodness for the cells, the cells replicate\grow (potential for replicating x50) = Tonnes of meat. 
the cells grow and become muscle fibers, the muscles fibers join and become tissue, the muscle fibers are given electrical charge to cause the muscles to contract\relax (work out).
at the end you are left with what they hope is a copy of a rump steak or what ever.


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

Tristan said:


> this is not fake meat were talking about, this is real meat grown in a lab.
> 
> ok if a 10min vid is to hard\long for some to watch ill give a quick text breakdown. (no this is not a snide comment, i understand some people don't have time\ability to play vids)
> 
> ...


I still don't think I could eat it... Would make a good alternative for my sis though


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## smileysnake (Dec 5, 2013)

i will just about eat anything as long as it tastes good. i have just recently tried chicken feet, my father being indian i have eaten ox tongue and my old man makes a great chicken giblet curry.....i would not know how to survive without meat.....and i love milk i have a big bowl of cereal every morning, love eggs fried scrambled omelettes hard boiled....


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

smileysnake said:


> i will just about eat anything as long as it tastes good. i have just recently tried chicken feet, my father being indian i have eaten ox tongue and my old man makes a great chicken giblet curry.....i would not know how to survive without meat.....and i love milk i have a big bowl of cereal every morning, love eggs fried scrambled omelettes hard boiled....


Ox tongue?!?!?


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## smileysnake (Dec 5, 2013)

ha ha yes ox tongue my dad still eats it to this day even my 4 year old niece who is a very picky eater will sit down with her poppy and pig out on ox tongue...gee we even used to make sandwiches with it...lol..im surprised you mentioned that first and not the chicken giblets lol...


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## stimigex (Dec 5, 2013)

princessparrot said:


> Ox tongue?!?!?



Nothing wrong with offal, infact it is far more nutritious than most other forms of meat etc, Every part of an animal is edible!
The other thing that is blatantly obvious is that the most converted people are young females that are brainwashed into believing inaccurate hype in particular pertaining to the way our food is produced/farmed in this country. I will give you the tip animals raised in sub standard conditions will not thrive, reproduce and grow!


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

smileysnake said:


> ha ha yes ox tongue my dad still eats it to this day even my 4 year old niece who is a very picky eater will sit down with her poppy and pig out on ox tongue...gee we even used to make sandwiches with it...lol..im surprised you mentioned that first and not the chicken giblets lol...


Don't even know what "giblets" are:? Not sure I want to by the sound of that... And people report/complain when they find chicken feet!...


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## Darlyn (Dec 5, 2013)

Giblets are the internal organs, heart, liver etc. Very nice if prepared properly. Ox tongue can be prepared
like corned beef and is also quite yummy. I like some good crispy chicken feet as well. Do you want me to post some recipes?


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## Lawra (Dec 5, 2013)

smileysnake said:


> i will just about eat anything as long as it tastes good. i have just recently tried chicken feet, my father being indian i have eaten ox tongue and my old man makes a great chicken giblet curry.....i would not know how to survive without meat.....and i love milk i have a big bowl of cereal every morning, love eggs fried scrambled omelettes hard boiled....



*big thumbs up*

My mum's Indian and I have fond memories of helping Nana in the kitchen cooking tongue moil. I still can't get over how huge they are lol.


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Giblets are the internal organs, heart, liver etc. Very nice if prepared properly. Ox tongue can be prepared
> like corned beef and is also quite yummy. I like some good crispy chicken feet as well. Do you want me to post some recipes?


Uh, no thanks


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## Darlyn (Dec 5, 2013)

Oh, are you sure? A good tongue recipe is a handy thing to keep. Just in case.


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## miss_mosher (Dec 5, 2013)

Hey mate, if you're after more info for this, read 'The China Study.'


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## princessparrot (Dec 5, 2013)

Darlyn said:


> Oh, are you sure? A good tongue recipe is a handy thing to keep. Just in case.


Nah, I think I'm right

- - - Updated - - -



miss_mosher said:


> Hey mate, if you're after more info for this, read 'The China Study.'


Who u talking to


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## miss_mosher (Dec 5, 2013)

princessparrot said:


> Nah, I think I'm right
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



The original poster. I didn't realise this thread was already so long...


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## zack13 (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't get why everyone keeps going on about the China Study. One google search and I found it has been slammed by some scientists and doctors. Do people research anything these days or just regurgitate everything they read?


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## miss_mosher (Dec 5, 2013)

zack13 said:


> I don't get why everyone keeps going on about the China Study. One google search and I found it has been slammed by some scientists and doctors. Do people research anything these days or just regurgitate everything they read?



I have researched the pros an cons for this book. Currently on chapter four. I have also seen every doco (minus one) that was mentioned. I see good and bad in all. Research is a must, absolutely. I found that research through reviews are useless, that reading or viewing the item helps the most. So far, I have found it very interesting and referenced well (almost every sentence is referenced, with a whole chapter on references). You don't have to end up agreeing it, but definitely worth a read. I'm a meat eater and still look into this stuff


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## caliherp (Dec 6, 2013)

That was a entertaining read. I honestly do not think I would be able to live without meat.


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## Snowman (Dec 6, 2013)

It’s no surprise “The China Study” has been so widely embraced within the vegan and vegetarian community: It says point-blank what any vegan wants to hear—that there’s scientific rationale for avoiding all animal foods. That even small amounts of animal protein are harmful. That an ethical ideal can be completely wed with health. These are exciting things to hear for anyone trying to justify a plant-only diet, and it’s for this reason I believe “The China Study” has not received as much critical analysis as it deserves, especially from some of the great thinkers in the vegetarian world. 
One thing you'll never hear Campbell mention, nor have I seen other China Study skeptics come across, is the health of one unique county in China called Tuoli. Unlike the rest of China, the Tuoli ate 40% of their diet as fat, ate 134 grams of animal protein per day (twice as much as the average American), and rarely ate vegetables or other plant foods. According to the China Study data, these people were extremely healthy with low rates of cancers and heart disease... healthier, in fact, than many of the counties that were nearly vegan. (No big shocker there, but it's something Campbell completely ignores.)

A list of health and nutrition experts that have slammed the study as nothing more than vegan propaganda. 


The China Study exposed: actual data does not support vegetarian health claims (at Hunter-Gatherer)
China Study Problems of Interpretation (at Whole Health Source)
Polish a turd and find a diamond? (at PaNu)
The China Study: Junk Science and Lies (at Robb Wolf)
There is no justification for a plant-only diet (at Conditioning Research)
Rest in peace, China Study (at The Healthy Skeptic)
“The China Study”, Debunked (at Theory to Practice)
"The China Study: Fact or Fallacy?" (at Let Them Eat Meat)
Destroying China (the Study that Is) (at Aspire Natural Health)
The China Study Discredited (at Food Renegade)
The Study Everyone Talks About: Part 2: The Ravaging Reviews (at Feasting on Fitness)
Debunking The China Study (at Crossfit 1776)
The Debunking of the China Study (at TJ's Gym)
Thoughts on Friday from the middle of the road! (at A Moderate Life)
A Critique Worth Reading (at For His Glory & for Our Good)
"T. Colin Campbell’s The China Study: Finally, Exhaustively Discredited" (at Crossfit Peachtree)
The China Study: Crushed by its Own Data (at The Spark of Reason)
China Study & T. Colin Campbell: Someone just made you their vegan ***** (at Paleo-ish)
The China Study: Evidence for the Perfect Health Diet (at Perfect Health Diet)
The China Study Has No Clothes: Smackdown Of T. Colin Campbell (at Nutrition and Physical Regeneration)
The slam-dunking of "The China Study" (at the shmaltz)
China Study Shakedown (at Natural Messiah)
The China Study Toppled – A Tale of the Confirmation Bias (at Lean, Mean, Virile Machine)
Slaying of a Hypothesis (at Animal Pharm)
"Epidemiology is Bogus" (at Evolutionary Psychiatry)
China Study Unveiled -- Not Supporting Veganism (at Primal Wisdom)
China fiction? (at The Heart Scan Blog)
The China Study - A Superb Analysis (at Primal Muse)
Chipping Away at the China Study (at Liberation Wellness)
The China study: Debunked (at Food, flora and felines)
Buh-bye, China Study (at The Low-Carb Curmudgeon)
China Study Debunked (at The Red Pill)
Around the Fitness Horn (at x lyssa)
RAW FOOD SOS sobre o China Study (at Canibais e Reis)
Die veblüffende Biegsamkeit von Fakten: The China Study (at Urgeschmack)
Veganbibelns fall (at Kostdoktorn.Se)
Weekend Link Love (at Mark's Daily Apple)
The China Study (at Kat's Food Blog)
Debunking junk science: goodbye china study (at abundant brain & health)
China Study Unmasked (at AgingBoomersBlog.com)
Denise Minger Refutes the China Study Once and For All (at The WAPF Blog)
"The China Study" Considered Harmful (at Metamodern)
The China Study vs the China study (at The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.)

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I'm noticing a lot of your posts are being deleted on various threads Princessparrot. How are you not being suspended?

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miss_mosher said:


> I have researched the pros an cons for this book. Currently on chapter four. I have also seen every doco (minus one) that was mentioned. I see good and bad in all. Research is a must, absolutely. I found that research through reviews are useless, that reading or viewing the item helps the most. So far, I have found it very interesting and referenced well (almost every sentence is referenced, with a whole chapter on references). You don't have to end up agreeing it, but definitely worth a read. I'm a meat eater and still look into this stuff



The China study was written that way. To make people believe it. "Wow it is well referenced, it must be true!". However when scrutinised by actual doctors and the scientific community it was found to be nothing more than one sided propaganda. Written to support Campbells theories. 

If you are taking the time to read the study then this is worth the time to read too.
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/cancer/the-china-study-vs-the-china-study/

I love this part about the cancer proteins being from a fungus found in corn and other grains... 
_"The “findings from India that a low-protein diet represses tumor formation” were the results of a rodent study published in the Archives of Pathology in 1968 that Dr. Campbell wrote about 14 pages earlier in the book. He mysteriously refers to the Archives of Pathology as an obscure journal when it is anything but. It was published then by the American Medical Association and still is today under the new name Archives of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine. But the notion of the paper initiating his quest being discovered by Dr. Campbell in an “obscure medical journal” fosters the impression of him as a leave-no-stone-unturned kind of guy. Even the little throw away but incorrect phrase “obscure medical journal” is part of the greater picture of obfuscation that maintains throughout the book._
_The study from India showed that rats given aflatoxin along with a high-protein diet got liver cancer while rats given the same amount of aflatoxin while consuming a low-protein diet didn’t. Aflatoxin is a substance released from a fungus often found in peanuts, corn, other grains and even hay. It is converted in the liver to a much more toxic compound and is often used in laboratory experiments with animals to induce cancer and other problems"_


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## Rob (Dec 6, 2013)

Well damn, Snowman. After going through all those links, one could really use a nice home cooked vegan meal.

[video=youtube;CeZlih4DDNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg[/video]


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## Snowman (Dec 6, 2013)

Rob72 said:


> Well damn, Snowman. After going through all those links, one could really use a nice home cooked vegan meal.
> 
> [video=youtube;CeZlih4DDNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg[/video]



Looks yum! Nothing wrong with an animal free meal! 
A lot of my favourite Indian food is basically vegan. But my favourite curries are lamb and pork.


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## JackTheHerper (Dec 6, 2013)

I dont see the point to being a vegan, your eating the animals food so really ur just as bad as the meat eaters


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## Umbral (Dec 6, 2013)

Lmao Rob, that cracked me up!


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## Rob (Dec 6, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Lmao Rob, that cracked me up!



"Your knife doesn't even need to be that awesome. A regular knife will do !"


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## Umbral (Dec 6, 2013)

Cut the tofuuuu turn ther boaarrrdd! Lol.

- - - Updated - - -

You were on YouTube for too long and ended up on the wired stuff didn't you?


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## Snowman (Dec 6, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Lmao Rob, that cracked me up!


Hahaha. I thought it was just a picture. Very funny video!


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## andynic07 (Dec 6, 2013)

Snowman said:


> Looks yum! Nothing wrong with an animal free meal!
> A lot of my favourite Indian food is basically vegan. But my favourite curries are lamb and pork.



I can't go past a good goat curry and even became quite partial to mud crab curry whilst in Fiji.


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## Snowman (Dec 6, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I can't go past a good goat curry and even became quite partial to mud crab curry whilst in Fiji.



Some of the best curry I've had was in Fiji. Yep mud crab is amazing!

- - - Updated - - -

I could live entirely on sea food. I love baby octopus too. 
Crumbed lambs brains, ox tongue,
ox tail. All those weird things from other cultures get my vote.


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## Umbral (Dec 6, 2013)

I make lambs neck or oxtail stew quite often during winter and it's fantastic! It used to be about $2 a kilo and now people have worked out its a really good cut of meat for stews.

With curries mutton works really well, much better than lamb and goat is good too. If I was stranded on an island and had to pick and animal and only eat meat from that animal I would choose pork. 

I do like veggies and salad but I enjoy them with my meat.


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## Jazzz (Dec 6, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I am a meat eater and eat meat in moderation, I eat it for the flavour and the nutrients it gives me. It is also a tradition in my family as long as I can remember. I would like to question that someone can say that an environmentalist can find it hypocritical that people care about the environment because they eat meat whilst using power on a computer on a discussion about the subject and whilst using power to keep a snake just for self pleasure and then accuse others of personal attacks. I think that I am an environmentalist to some degree because I care for the environment and try to make it better in some way but would not think to call those who care about the environment but do less than I a hypocrite, instead I would appreciate their effort and try to encourage more.



I can clear this up quite easily for you. Livestock produces more carbon dioxide equivalents then all of the cars on the roads. This is a great quote from the senior UN food and agricultural official 'livestock are one of the most significant contributors to todays most serious environmental problems'. 

-Clearing ecosystems for raising cattle
-clearing ecosystems for raising grains to feed cattle
-increased pesticide and fertilizer use with grains to feed cattle 
-increased soil depletion with grains to feed cattle
- METHANE emitted into our atmosphere. (already quoted the numbers, go back and check)

Just because you care about the environment and dont actually directly harm it doesnt mean you are. Unless you take your car off the road plus some extra credit you are doing more to damage our world then a car driving laptop using vegan.

Of course its great if you do care about the environment but i find it hard to be able to call yourself an 'environmentalist' while still contributing to a major cause of environmental degradation that is so easy to eliminate from your diet and lifestyle. 

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Snowman said:


> It’s no surprise “The China Study” has been so widely embraced within the vegan and vegetarian community: It says point-blank what any vegan wants to hear—that there’s scientific rationale for avoiding all animal foods. That even small amounts of animal protein are harmful. That an ethical ideal can be completely wed with health. These are exciting things to hear for anyone trying to justify a plant-only diet, and it’s for this reason I believe “The China Study” has not received as much critical analysis as it deserves, especially from some of the great thinkers in the vegetarian world.
> One thing you'll never hear Campbell mention, nor have I seen other China Study skeptics come across, is the health of one unique county in China called Tuoli. Unlike the rest of China, the Tuoli ate 40% of their diet as fat, ate 134 grams of animal protein per day (twice as much as the average American), and rarely ate vegetables or other plant foods. According to the China Study data, these people were extremely healthy with low rates of cancers and heart disease... healthier, in fact, than many of the counties that were nearly vegan. (No big shocker there, but it's something Campbell completely ignores.)
> 
> A list of health and nutrition experts that have slammed the study as nothing more than vegan propaganda.
> ...



The china study was just one study of the many i quoted and mentioned. Please produce some reputable backlash to the rest of the current and peer reviewed studies that prove my point.


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## bk201 (Dec 6, 2013)

most land used for cattle currently cannot support crops 
if Australia went vegan tomorrow all animals would be destroyed as to expensive to keep alive
the majority of farm land would be useless
we would need to clear rainforests etc to produce enough vegan crops for everyone to survive

i went vego for 6 months and ate nothing but veggie pizza wasnt half bad


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## Jazzz (Dec 6, 2013)

bk201 said:


> most land used for cattle currently cannot support crops
> if Australia went vegan tomorrow all animals would be destroyed as to expensive to keep alive
> the majority of farm land would be useless
> we would need to clear rainforests etc to produce enough vegan crops for everyone to survive
> ...



As i said earlier, 70% of our current grain stocks go towards feeding livestock. More food goes into the livestock then comes out ( its about 5-6kg of grain per kg of meat). If we used this agricultural land to feed ourselves it would be significantly more sustainable.


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## andynic07 (Dec 6, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I can clear this up quite easily for you. Livestock produces more carbon dioxide equivalents then all of the cars on the roads. This is a great quote from the senior UN food and agricultural official 'livestock are one of the most significant contributors to todays most serious environmental problems'.
> 
> -Clearing ecosystems for raising cattle
> -clearing ecosystems for raising grains to feed cattle
> ...


To quote the Oxford dictionary "Environmentalist : A person who is concerned about protecting the environment" If you look up a list of famous and notable environmentalists you who have done great things for the environment you will find that there are quite a few eat meat. If you would like to twist the definition around to support your crusade and insult a number of people who have done a lot more for the environment than you will ever do plus belittle all of the people that are doing their little bit to satisfy your vegan argument then who am I to disagree. In my books it isn't about having a tally on who is doing the most for the environment but brought up your point about being hypocritical. I did not deem someone hypocritical for polluting in some ways like eating meat and still trying to do something good for the environment but merely pointed out your own inconsistencies. I for one feel that my body needs the nutrients , vitamins and minerals that meat provide me and will put those needs above the environment and will not be made to feel bad for my choice. I have not tried to make anyone who chooses no meat feel bad for their choice because it is their choice for their reasons. It has been the non meat eaters that have thrown "it causes cancer" or "it is bad for the environment" at the meat eaters and then accused the meat eaters of becoming aggressive.


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## bk201 (Dec 6, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> As i said earlier, 70% of our current grain stocks go towards feeding livestock. More food goes into the livestock then comes out ( its about 5-6kg of grain per kg of meat). If we used this agricultural land to feed ourselves it would be significantly more sustainable.


as said land is not suitable to feed humans...growing livestock feed is a different matter...


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## Newhere (Dec 6, 2013)

Jaz if we all stop eating meat we will have to grow more fruit and veg and thats going to lead to soil depletion and land clearing and more pesticide and fertiliser use, whats the difference? Also bk201 was trying to say the land used for growing grain is not going to be suitable for growing fruit and veg so we would have to clear more land in more sensitive ecosystems to increase production of vegan crops. And considering the land used for growing grain has already been cleared you would actually do more harm by not utilising the already cleared land.


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## Jazzz (Dec 6, 2013)

Newhere said:


> Jaz if we all stop eating meat we will have to grow more fruit and veg and thats going to lead to soil depletion and land clearing and more pesticide and fertiliser use, whats the difference? Also bk201 was trying to say the land used for growing grain is not going to be suitable for growing fruit and veg so we would have to clear more land in more sensitive ecosystems to increase production of vegan crops. And considering the land used for growing grain has already been cleared you would actually do more harm by not utilising the already cleared land.



The land used to grow grain can support a number of different crop options, especially with increased legume production which improves soils. This is 70% of our grain soils, a massive amount! Even if some soils are unsuitable the majority will be and can produce the legumes and vegetables necessary. I have been lucky enough to study land use and management, agriculture and soil science through university. 

People already eat their share of fruit, i feel a lack of meat wont significantly increase this demand.

- - - Updated - - -



andynic07 said:


> To quote the Oxford dictionary "Environmentalist : A person who is concerned about protecting the environment" If you look up a list of famous and notable environmentalists you who have done great things for the environment you will find that there are quite a few eat meat. If you would like to twist the definition around to support your crusade and insult a number of *people who have done a lot more for the environment than you will ever do* plus belittle all of the people that are doing their little bit to satisfy your vegan argument then who am I to disagree. In my books it isn't about having a tally on who is doing the most for the environment but brought up your point about being hypocritical. I did not deem someone hypocritical for polluting in some ways like eating meat and still trying to do something good for the environment but merely pointed out your own inconsistencies. I for one feel that my body needs the nutrients , vitamins and minerals that meat provide me and will put those needs above the environment and will not be made to feel bad for my choice. I have not tried to make anyone who chooses no meat feel bad for their choice because it is their choice for their reasons. It has been the non meat eaters that have thrown *"it causes cancer"* or *"it is bad for the environment"* at the meat eaters and then accused the meat eaters of becoming aggressive.



Yes we have said those things because they are true. Read the studies and points i have made previously. Meat eaters have posted their own arguments in defense, it works both ways. 

I just feel if i can easily and effectively make a positive contribution to the environment then why not do it? But as you said, it is your choice to continue negatively affecting the world. I can accept this, however, i cannot respect it when it harms us all. I for one enjoy the GBR and wildlife =]

Its because of this that i have actually completed my bachelor of environmental science and hope to have a career in conservation. I think its a little rude to make massive assumptions about a person.


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## princessparrot (Dec 6, 2013)

Jazzz, I'm still with u


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## Illium (Dec 7, 2013)

The whole argument for and against for the large part is futile, if anything people will defend their position more strongly as soon as they themselves see cracking in their own arguments and "scientific evidence".

The most likely reason humans evolved to consume meat is to take advantage of not being either a specialised predator or herbivore. We can adjust to our environment.

In saying that meat will almost always provide more amino acids, fats and protein then any plant based food source per kilo. Also, it has higher calorie intake meaning in our path of evolution it was the safer bet for sustenance. 

More than any other reason I would say people eat meat because of a deep seated urge for animal based protein and the other benefits meat has to offer, it is part of our genetic make up.
Sure, plant based product Is also full of nutrition that you cannot get from meat but it is always a balance.

Like anyone however you will have people who choose to live a different way and believe different things being music, movie taste, food choices, sexuality, pet preferences, religion etc. and almost all people will try to get non agreeing people around to their point of view. 

The arguments of changing grazing lands to crop fields again can be quite dynamic, you would also have to account for irrigation, salinity increase, the use of fertilizers and the impact that will have, even down to an increase of particular pests, you are always changing a balance.
My belief is the repercussions of converting existing land used for livestock into agriculture in the long run could prove just as detrimental to the environment.

One possible solution that has been thrown around for years is farming of kangaroos, they will graze on native grass lands, reduce soil erosion and not require much modification to current set up. The plus is a high quality great tasting animal protein much healthier than most other products

I might also mention that placing health in quotation marks in the original post is an instant identification of an agenda in place and was bounce to stir up a response, might as well have made the title "meat, and how you are misguided to think it good for you"


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## Flash1paul (Dec 7, 2013)

If we were meant to be vegitarians, then why did God make cows out of meat? :lol:


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## andynic07 (Dec 7, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have said those things to try and convert the meat eaters and I have stated that things that I believe to be true and we both have evidence to support our case but the big thing that sticks out to me and you have said it "Meat eaters have posted their own arguments in defence" we have to remember where this all started, it was a poll with thought provoking about what we eat and the meat eaters were drawn into a debate where the non meat eaters threw these facts out there telling us why our lifestyle is so bad which is completely off topic but seems to be where the thread was intended. If you notice these links from the non meat eaters came up quite quickly like they had them sitting there waiting for this discussion to head in the direction that it did and it actually took quite a few pages for for the meat eaters post any links after they had done some research to as you put it "defend themselves" . You say that you respect that I choose to continue "harm the world" but cannot respect my actions when it harms us all but you choose to believe that my harm affects us all but yours doesn't , what form of sustainable power source are you using or have you looked into using? You say that you have complected a bachelor of environmental science but I have always been under the impression that the main component of science in whatever form was facts and logic which I believe your argument is not based on and rather it is based on your feelings with a bit of fact to back up some of your claims.


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## disintegratus (Dec 7, 2013)

I must admit, I'm with the anti-vegetarianists on this one. Meat's awesome. Cows are my favourite.
However I admit that either way, there is a huge, unsupportable negative impact on the environment, both local and global.
All the studies and articles that I have read point to only one sustainable solution: SOYLENT GREEN*... 







*I have not, nor am I likely to ever, read any studies supporting the consumption of people meat.


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## jack (Dec 7, 2013)

do vegans taste different to omnivorous humans?

back on topic, thankyou for answering my query as to why the word 'health' was in inverted commas, and now thank you for answering my query as to what you feed your pets.



Gecko :) said:


> Sure, I feed my pets what ever is required for them to be healthy.
> ie Their natural diet.



i rest my case


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## andynic07 (Dec 7, 2013)

jack said:


> do vegans taste different to omnivorous humans?


I am not sure what either taste like but think I would draw the line at human meat consumption.lol


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## Umbral (Dec 7, 2013)

I like it when people say they only eat organic. Show me a vegetable that isn't made of organic material lol.


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## Wing_Nut (Dec 7, 2013)

The food to growth ratio that's being quoted is a clear misrepresentation of reality. The 6-7kg of wheat/kg meat represents a very small portion of the meat industry and relates solely to American feedlots and was settled upon to allow the continued trade of futures in the American markets.

There is simply not enough grain on this planet to sustain those levels. The reality is that most cattle are grown on a rotational basis on pasture that is fertilised by the grazing of cattle providing rich organic fertilisers. The theory of feedlot rearing was designed to maximise economic returns for producers and reduce the cost at the retail end.

South Africa is leading the charge on reducing the environmental impacts of cattle by using the by products of feedlot cattle for power generation. A sensible and practical greener future initiative. 

Many leading meat producers are also far more environment aware than the picture being painted here. Many billions of dollars are being invested in environmental impact intervention. When it comes to sustainable food production in an environmental way, both forms of agricultureare dependant on the other. 

Simply put, organic cereal/vegetable farming is impossible without animal farming. Because animal products (manure) are being used in the production chain, does this make the vegan movement defunct?


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## Darlyn (Dec 7, 2013)

I eat meat because I've found that vegans tend to become morally superior when their diet lacks meat.
This seems to "negatively" effect society.
I don't want to become like that, lamb chops for lunch.


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## Snowman (Dec 7, 2013)

I think the whole thing was over when the vegans started quoting ridiculous sources that have been discredited. Once even one source is discredited the rest just follows suit...


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## SteveNT (Dec 7, 2013)

Our dentition clearly shows we are designed for an OMNIVOROUS diet. Meat and 2 veg for me.


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## Umbral (Dec 7, 2013)

Look at any society in the world and 99% of them have eaten meat for a long time.

Disclaimer: 74.3% of all facts online are made up.


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## Ellannn (Dec 8, 2013)

I tried to go vegetarian for about 3 weeks many years ago. I actually got really ill. I started eating meat again and started feeling better almost instantly. So now I don't risk it. 
Every one is different but for me personally, it's better for me (health wise) to eat meat. 
I don't eat to much dairy though.


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## Flash1paul (Dec 8, 2013)

Umbral said:


> Look at any society in the world and 99% of them have eaten meat for a long time.
> 
> Disclaimer: 74.3% of all facts online are made up.



14% of people know that..


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## mysnakesau (Dec 8, 2013)

I eat everything. Tastes good and healthy. If it was wrong to like this we would have not been created to be omnivorous. If I had to kill my own food then I would be vegetarian. Yes I have euthanised animals to feed to my snakes but not without sad feelings for the prey animals. I couldn't do it. I have total respect for anybody who chooses to eat all or not. Just don't be cruel. Animals eat animals to survive. I have rescued animals from being attacked by other animals but then I've felt bad for the predator to have to go hungry. Its life.


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## ReptilianHybrid (Dec 8, 2013)

I think our intelligence as humans can overcome our instincts as a animals emotions like guilt and empathy can confuse people into a state where they feel uncomfortable eating animals. FEAR NOT People lol

We all have k9 and pre-molar teeth to kill and tear meat.Then we have incisors and molars to grind herb and seeds. Humans are omnivores .
id like to see a snake eat a brussel sprout or snail chow down on a steak


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## princessparrot (Dec 8, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> id like to see a snake eat a brussel sprout or snail chow down on a steak



how bout that thread with the snake eating broccoli?


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## ReptilianHybrid (Dec 8, 2013)

princessparrot said:


> how bout that thread with the snake eating broccoli?


Haha ok. would it be healthy for a snake or shark for example to eat vegetable matter for its entire lifespan?


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## Stuart (Dec 8, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> Haha ok. would it be healthy for a snake or shark for example to eat vegetable matter for its entire lifespan?


No.

The thread in question is here http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/vegan-snake-196115/


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## ReptilianHybrid (Dec 8, 2013)

SniperCap said:


> No.
> 
> The thread in question is here http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/vegan-snake-196115/


yeah that is gold but its not really what were talking about, and that's a once off event that snake would eat a rubber mouse if it could with a food response like that


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## andynic07 (Dec 9, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> yeah that is gold but its not really what were talking about, and that's a once off event that snake would eat a rubber mouse if it could with a food response like that


Pretty sure Sniper answered your question of would it be healthy with a firm no and then helped you find the thread and posted the link. Pretty sure he knows what the conversation is about.


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## CodeRed (Dec 9, 2013)

I love vegetarians, they're so tasty


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## Snowman (Dec 9, 2013)

CodeRed said:


> I love vegetarians, they're so tasty



Sooner or later they are going to eat meat..... Vegetarians will eat meat once they turn into a zombie. The zombie apocalypse is near


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## moosenoose (Dec 9, 2013)

I do like vegetarian food, but I couldn't help drooling whilst looking at the Wagu in at Costco the other day  

I do make a mean satay vegetable and Tofu stirfry


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## Amelia (Dec 9, 2013)

I've dealt with a few vegetarians/vegans that only offered grains, fruits & vegetables to their dogs because of their own dietary preferences.


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## princessparrot (Dec 9, 2013)

Amelia said:


> I've dealt with a few vegetarians/vegans that only offered grains, fruits & vegetables to their dogs because of their own dietary preferences.


At least I'm not like that.


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## moosenoose (Dec 9, 2013)

Quite frankly I don't get it


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## ReptilianHybrid (Dec 9, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> Pretty sure Sniper answered your question of would it be healthy with a firm no and then helped you find the thread and posted the link. Pretty sure he knows what the conversation is about.



yes but it was a retorical question to make a point in my statement and if youd read all of the conversations with a couple of people and my opinion on vegetarians youd clearly see that. but good on you Andy for trying to explain things for sniper :0 it really wasn't about if a snake can eat broccoli or if a snail can eat a steak


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## Gecko :) (Dec 10, 2013)

Obviously it is my choice to be Vegetarian, just as it is your call to be a meat eater but to ignore simple facts about health benefits of vegetarian or vegan diets & instead to make fun of them in my opinion is not only foolish, but very close minded. 
There is so much that can be learned from these types of diets and Imo you let yourselves down if you become too stubborn to accept that someone else's lifestyle can & would benefit you.

Many people choose to be vegans or vegetarians for health, and are not as radical as some of you seem to think. 
Considering science is in favor of consuming a plant based diet, personally I think trying to insult people who don't eat meat is a great approach to lose credibility.

Why do you meat advocates disregard all the research that shows that Vegetarian or Vegan lifestyle is healthy & Consuming Meat & Dairy is not.
We have tons of research too to support this lifestyle choice.
Vegetarians are generally associated with living longer than meat eaters, and have lower rates of disease. 
Statistically vegans, have lower rates of diseases than vegetarians. 

I have personally read hundreds of case studies, people who have even reversed devastating and life threatening diseases by following a whole foods diet that excludes meat, dairy, and eggs. 

Yea sure there are plenty of vegan nuts and I'm sure there are unhealthy vegans as well since eating vegan does not mean eating healthily, but even with that, the statistics are still in their favour.
My own personal experience tells me that I feel better when I eat whole foods and avoid animal products. 
If that isn't a reality for you, then you have every right to make a different choice. 
Just please stop belittling mine.
If you have never tried a vegetarian or vegan diet than it may be difficult for you to judge. 
I respect your right to make your own choices, but I do not respect people who come to our tables with hateful and biased opinions.
If you don't have any real facts to bring to the table, I would suggest you take the time you spend writing uninformed and rude comments to do some more reading.
You don’t need to look far to find results either.

I realise that most of us will lean towards the studies and conclusions that suits them best. 
All you can do is read up on both sides with an open mind and make your own judgement.

However there is no denying there is very good evidence to say a vegetarian or vegan diet is an excellent option for humans. 
& surely I am not the only one that has family or friends with common health problems & diseases?
Dietary & digestive problems, high cholesterol, blocked arteries, Heart disease & failure, gout, diabetes, hypertension, Diverticulitis, Cancer and other lifestyle related diseases!?.....

After doing plenty of my own research I believe the minimal nutrients meat has to offer are far outweighed by its detrimental effects.

Meat is acidic in the human body, which leads to inflammatory responses and disease. It is also, too high in protein and fat for optimal health.
We have no protein taste receptors like carnivorous animals do, so we have to cook and season our meat to really enjoy it. 
Whereas fruit to us smells, looks, and tastes good without any of that, (and also provides b12 if unwashed from the garden) and plenty of amino acids, and all other nutrients - especially when supplemented with leafy greens, and is not mucus forming or acid forming (disease causing) as animal foods are. 

Even the American Institute of Cancer Research (www.AICR.org.)has sponsored academic research that clearly reveals that the more red meat you eat the higher the incidence of colon, breast, prostate, pancreatic and other cancers!!

Seems that people who have either personal interests in the meat and dairy industry or who simply have a preference for eating meat and animal products because it tastes good and they feel they cannot live without it are the ones determined to put down people who choose to make a different choice.

In my opinion much of this starts and ends with the government organisations that "oversee" what it is that "we need" 
- What a pile of crap. These agencies are as corrupt as the administration. 
Really, it doesnt take Einstein to understand that a former CEO or board member of the Dairy Association shouldnt be making decisions as to what "we" need to have in our diet, and then no shock when there is an increase from 1 to 2 cups of "milk". 
Im sorry but people need to get real, we are being sold out to profit for companies that produce dairy and meat..
..if anyone was REALLY concerned about us, many practices would cease when it comes to animals & health standards, regulations etc....but noone really cares as long as they are still making a fortune.

My current thinking is that the reason I ate meat for most of my life, is I was taught that I needed it & I was somehow taught to accept it and then I became addicted. I loved eating meat as much as anyone. 
To try the alternative I had to first break the addiction.
Which seems a little daunting at first but for myself, I have found the great benefits of eating natural! 
Feels good, tastes just as good! And nothing is hurt in the process! 
It's 2013 and in my opinion there is no justification for eating animals when we have so many alternatives, particularly when there is more than enough evidence that plant based diet is clearly superior to a meat based diet. 
You can't argue with clinical results and lab numbers. 

& As long as I ensure I get the nutrients, minerals & vitamins I need within my diet then I dont see the problem with a vegetarian or vegan diet & I would prefer to eat fresh whole foods and people think that I am different or weird & look down on me, rather than follow the herd knowing the risks. 

At the end of the day I am more than happy with my choices!


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## PythonLegs (Dec 10, 2013)

Steve-O is a vegan. That there is reason enough to eat as much meat and dairy as you can.


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## miss_mosher (Dec 10, 2013)

I guess it's all about what you eat to substitute for the meat and dairy you miss out on. Every once in a while I'll do a raw vegan food cleanse followed by a vegetable juice fast as a detox - it makes you feel so bloody unreal! I'd love to lead that kind of lifestyle however you have to be committed to the extra time and money it takes to substitute for what you it out. You really need those superfoods in your diet every single day to compensate. I guess there will always be that unhealthy image of vegetarians because most live off wheat and pasta and tofu, and most raw vegans are extremists because of the relationship they have with animal cruelty. 
For me, people can eat whatever they like, for whatever reason. I choose to eat meat simply because I am not 100% committed to the extra time and money in not eating it at this point in my life. However I do feel healthier without it and that would be my reasoning, whereas others feel healthier with it, every BODY is different. I have however, become more aware about the process of farming (whether factory or organic) to reach my dinner plate and the chemicals that may be involved. In the end, if someone is quite happy eating a Big Mac meal as their three meals a day, or chew on lettuce their whole life, good for them I say!  
This argument as to what's healthier will never, EVER end, the science will never end, so let's all be happy as carnivores/herbivores/omnivores (basically anything anti-cannibal) together, without pushing at all onto each other 



PythonLegs said:


> Steve-O is a vegan. That there is reason enough to eat as much meat and dairy as you can.



Well that explains why he purposely vomited up that goldfish... Haha


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## andynic07 (Dec 10, 2013)

Gecko :) said:


> Obviously it is my choice to be Vegetarian, just as it is your call to be a meat eater but to ignore simple facts about health benefits of vegetarian or vegan diets & instead to make fun of them in my opinion is not only foolish, but very close minded.
> There is so much that can be learned from these types of diets and Imo you let yourselves down if you become too stubborn to accept that someone else's lifestyle can & would benefit you.
> 
> Many people choose to be vegans or vegetarians for health, and are not as radical as some of you seem to think.
> ...



First of all I would like to commend you on your passion about your beliefs and would also like to say that I am in no way belittling your beliefs nor trying to change your mind but more trying to show you why you have yet to change my mind on eating meat.

Firstly you have chopped and changed your argument from environmental reasons to health reasons which may be valid but it seems like you switch at convenient times to your argument. This alone I could let slide but combined with other reasons it becomes a factor.

You have stated that eating meat causes cancer but I have yet to see a case study that lists eating meat as the primary cause of the cancer. All of the studies that you have linked have meat eating increasing the risk of cancer when eaten in high levels. There is probably more studies around that list eating excess amounts of certain plant based foods as increasing your chances of cancer like sugar and possibly processed wheat.

You have also brought up that meat is acidic and that increases your chances of getting cancer. I know for a fact that there are a lot of plant based foods listed as acidic as well and have actually been on an extremely alkaline diet that included meat. This was two years ago in an attempt to get fit for soccer. I was 35 and I felt the fittest I had been since I was a teenager and was playing at a decent level against the majority of players being 26 years old. Wheat based foods and sugar are a lot worse for you than lean meat in moderation. I actually have Janelle Purcell's book who is a big advocate for the alkaline diet and eats meat so I feel that you have taken meat being acidic out of context a little.

My next point is that there has been equal amounts of links posted refuting the claims of the links that you have posted. This to me would suggest that there is evidence to support both arguments and therefore no need to change my ways but you have instead cried foul and suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy theory between the meat farmers and our government and therefore many other governments. I just can't see this being the case, if there was enough evidence out there to suggest that giving up meat all together was best for us then the government would get on board. It has big negative impacts on the government to have the most unhealthy population in the world.

You have also mentioned that there is a need to cook and flavour meat to make it edible. Meat was eaten without flavouring for many years as were vegetables but we have evolved and found flavouring makes things better. There is a lot of plant based foods that are not edible in the raw state and a lot of people who add flavouring to their vegetables.

I conclusion I am willing to keep an open mind about the subject but you will have to present a lot better case before you will change my mind.

Regards
Andy


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## princessparrot (Dec 10, 2013)

Would you eat an egg that grew on a tree - Food - Yahoo!7 Food


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## borntobnude (Dec 10, 2013)

How many likes for this yummy meal ?


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## ReptilianHybrid (Dec 11, 2013)

Well said Andynic you are 100% right that is how it is. I ph test my pee occasionaly I like to ty keep my body alkaline all the research shows cancer cant grow or survive in a alkaline body.
What do you guys know about silver water and monoatomic gold for health and mental strenghth, im about to smoke some gold on my tig welder like Obama


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## miss_mosher (Dec 11, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> Well said Andynic you are 100% right that is how it is. I ph test my pee occasionaly I like to ty keep my body alkaline all the research shows cancer cant grow or survive in a alkaline body.
> What do you guys know about silver water and monoatomic gold for health and mental strenghth, im about to smoke some gold on my tig welder like Obama



Silver water as in colloidal silver? Haven't tried it, however my gold and silver investments says I have enough to try it at home haha. I do the same with the PH strips too haha


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## MesseNoire (Dec 11, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> I think our intelligence as humans can overcome our instincts as a animals emotions like guilt and empathy can confuse people into a state where they feel uncomfortable eating animals. FEAR NOT People lol
> 
> We all have k9 and pre-molar teeth to kill and tear meat.Then we have incisors and molars to grind herb and seeds. Humans are omnivores .
> id like to see a snake eat a brussel sprout or snail chow down on a steak



Perhaps not so much steak but there are carnivorous snails.


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## Darlyn (Dec 11, 2013)

ReptilianHybrid said:


> Well said Andynic you are 100% right that is how it is. I ph test my pee occasionaly I like to ty keep my body alkaline all the research shows cancer cant grow or survive in a alkaline body.



Really, so that is the cure for cancer then, that's pretty interesting?


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