# R.I.P Milo..



## pugsly (Aug 6, 2006)

Evening all...

Today was probably the worst day I have had since I got into reptiles..

I came home to find my male bredli one of my favourite snakes, dead in its enclosure. Just last night alexr was around and I showed him it, nothing wrong with it, moved fine, breathing fine, tongue flickers etc. Today, dead.

I had no idea what had happened but after talking to a few people now it seems it was a possible heart attack, from which after opening up the snake seemed apparent, there is a blood clot and a lot of fatty tissue, which states the case of over feeding.

This guy was 18 months old and 5.5 feet. He usually ate 2 medium rats every 10 days. Or one large rat. Never refused a feed from the day I got him, I thought this feedign pattern was ok, but clearly after seeig the insides it is not. 

To all those who feed there animals to speed there growth let this be a warning, my female is half the males size as it eats half as much, and is still sitting happy in her enclosure. 

I can post the photots of what I saw on the inside if you like, but its not for the sqeemish, definately a lesson learned the hard way and I will be cutting down my feeds for all my pythons from today..

Rest in Peace Milo...


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## cam (Aug 6, 2006)

RIP milo :cry:


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Aug 6, 2006)

thats sucks steve, a tragic but educational lesson.
it was a heart attack? would be interested in seeing the pictures.pm if theyre to graphic
sorry for the loss
baz


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## pugsly (Aug 6, 2006)

Vet was closed, spoke to a few experienced people who have had the same thing happen, and thought that would be the only cause as it was just so out of the blue. You can see pretty clearly a blood clot and 'heaps' of fatty tissue surrounding the heart..


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Aug 6, 2006)

you will get him to a vet still to varify that though?its normal to have a certain amount of fat around the heart..the name for it escapes me at the moment and if a vet saw him they could tell you weather the blood clot was related to the cause of death. or caused by the post mortem surgery. 
baz


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## CodeRed (Aug 6, 2006)

Man that sucks. Is that the bredli you brought to the Mac Herps show?


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## pugsly (Aug 6, 2006)

Here you go.. 

Yes will still get to the vet though..


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## Snow1369 (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry to hear mate! R.I.P Milo!


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## pugsly (Aug 6, 2006)

Yeah he was mate

Here is some good advice for everyone..

Only something like 5% of wild pythons examined have had any trace of food in there tract what so ever and have evolved over hundreds-thousands of years to live like this, when feeding every 10 days or so the animal always has food, and waste inside at all times and develops layer upon layer of fat, also remeber that in captivity they become conditioned and dont need to seek food as othen as its always just given to them. try feeding let the snake completley pass all food, then leave for 1-6 weeks and feed again, chop and change all the time. 
your animals will live longer, breed better and become far more active as they are not just sitting around digesting food all the time. some people see their snakes roaming and have to feed them cause they think they are hungry, dont let them roam for days/weeks its good exersize for them and they need it. 

Cheers
Steve


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## alexr (Aug 6, 2006)

Very sorry to hear about that mate... what a shock!.


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## bobthefish (Aug 6, 2006)

You should never see the skin around the scales of your snake, unless it is swollen with food, and then only at the place where the food bulge is. My boa, 31 years old, gets fed once a fortnight. She's a bit over 4 foot, more slender than a python, by about 1/2, and she never eats more than a mouse at a sitting, and then only a mature, not a fat mouse.

Sorry Puglsy, you weren't to know mate. There's too much misinformation about weight and snakes out there!

Cheers, and enjoy your next bredli!


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## pythoness (Aug 6, 2006)

so sorry to hear about milo. R.I.P.
snakes can live on very little food, as little as one feed a year, i guess we do over feed, i for one will be cutting down the feeding.
sorry again for your loss.


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## cam (Aug 6, 2006)

> My boa


I beg your pardon


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## hazzard (Aug 6, 2006)

Both my male and female bredli's are 5 years old and have only just reached 5/1/2 feet. Beautiful head size in relation to body.

I was talking about this with Rick Shine not long ago. He said a lot of adult diamonds in the wild are lucky to eat 12 times per year (equates to once a month) remember that 4months of this they don't eat at least.

I feed most of my snakes over 15 days apart, sometimes a month. I have had tremendous breeding success and large clutch sizes.

My first pair of macs that took 5 years to breed had continuous clutches of 17, 22 then 27 eggs respectively. Many of my mates have adult maccies larger than mine in two years (in a rush to breed them).

I'm in research and all wild snakes I see have beautiful body proportions, large heads and sleek bodies. 

I know a person that has a gravid woma at 13months of age and a gravid blackhead at 15 months of age. I've warned him what can happen, I guess I'll just wait and see.

Nevertheless I'm sorry for your loss. Bredli are my favourite snakes, and I have some pretty impressive ones. It's heartbreaking to see those pics.


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## ad (Aug 6, 2006)

Hey Pugsly,
Tough break mate,
All the 'power feeders' now have something to view and a valid testimonial to counter their arguements,
Taking that extra year to get your animal to breeding age isnt that bad a thing.
Congrats on posting the thread and your stance on it and sorry again you lost Milo.
Cheers
Adam


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## dickyknee (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry for the loss Pugsly .


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## TrueBlue (Aug 6, 2006)

yes, its a good thing you are doing here pugsly, very sad that it happened to your animal, but very insperational,(for lack of a better word) to show the pics of what over feeding can do. It will save lives for sure.
I applaud you.


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## jordo (Aug 6, 2006)

Gee sorry mate, I've also heard its a good idea to feed rats/mice which are younger rather than older rodents which have stopped growing and therefore have higher fat deposits.
At least you've got some great pics to remember Milo by.
jordo


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## krusty (Aug 6, 2006)

sorry to here that mate...........R.I.P.


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## scotchbo (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry to hear that Bro....


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## shelby (Aug 6, 2006)

So sorry to hear of your loss, devestating! :cry: but thanks for speaking out through your grief and for making us newbies aware of the risks of over feeding, its a valubale lesson we have all just learnt! 
sorry once again, Shelby


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 6, 2006)

I think once-a-year feeds are probably not a good idea either Pythoness, but adult snakes, especially boys, can be fed a reasonble sized meal every 4-6 weeks to keep their weight down. Most of my adults get fed just whenever I think of it, and not usually more than monthly in summer, if that.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry for your loss Pugsly, I would be interested to hear what a vet said was the cause of death, could have been anything I suppose as it didn't look at all fat.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 6, 2006)

*Size...*

There was a very large amount of fat in the body cavity, and 5.5 feet at 18 months is way too big for it's age.

J.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 6, 2006)

*RE: Size...*

:shock: no fat boa, have another look. :shock:


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## Rennie (Aug 6, 2006)

*RE: Size...*

Very sorry to hear about your loss mate :cry: :cry: :cry:


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## Retic (Aug 6, 2006)

*Re: RE: Size...*

You're not going to start twisting my words again are you Rob, you know what happened last time :wink: 
I said the snake didn't look fat and for a Bredli it certainly doesn't from that photo.



TrueBlue said:


> :shock: no fat boa, have another look. :shock:


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## CodeRed (Aug 6, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Size...*

I saw that snake at the mac herps show and it didnt look fat ... well not compared to my bredli anyway  . They have been on a massive diet for the last 6 months but they are still fat buggers.


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## basketcase (Aug 6, 2006)

i have a female bredli of the same age thats just 5 foot, and i barely feed her once a month now.

could you describe/take a pic of his viv? what substrate/furniture did you have in there etc?

sorry for your loss mate, absolutely terrible. but the best thing about it is that you learn from it, its a good learning curve and message to others.


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## Retic (Aug 6, 2006)

*RE: Re: RE: Size...*

Bredli are a heavy bodied snakes, it doesn't look fat in that photo and although their is some fat in that photo it doesn't appear excessive. I have no axe to grind as I don't power feed and don't feel it necessary for me to support or criticise anyone who does. Those who belief it to be harmful always will and those who consider it acceptable equally always will. 
There certainly seems to be a body of evidence to say that an obese ADULT snake is unhealthy but that is common sense, with fast growing healthy juveniles I would say the jury is still out but I am sure some will disagree as is their right.


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## pythoness (Aug 6, 2006)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I think once-a-year feeds are probably not a good idea either Pythoness, .


lol jamie, no i meant some species only eat once a year, (ie... mutton bird tiger)
not to feed captives once a year, mine would have eaten me by then


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## GreatSage (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry for your loss.


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## PremierPythons (Aug 6, 2006)

cam said:


> > My boa
> 
> 
> I beg your pardon



I think he said his Boa cam.. not everyone on the site is from Australia...


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## Gecko_ProCs (Aug 6, 2006)

aww thats sad mate
im sorry for ya loss he was a good looking snake

R.I.P MILO

Cam...


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## junglepython2 (Aug 6, 2006)

Sorry to hear about it.

Hope your next bredli looks just as good


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## Nagraj (Aug 6, 2006)

pugsly said:


> I can post the photots of what I saw on the inside if you like, but its not for the sqeemish, definately a lesson learned the hard way and I will be cutting down my feeds for all my pythons from today..




With all due respect, I believe you are leaping to a huge conclusion in blaming it on over-feeding without a professional autopsy and other supporting evidence. And I am certainly not advocating power-feeding.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

*RE: Re: R.I.P Milo..*

Exactly the point I was making.


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## NCHERPS (Aug 7, 2006)

Chanty79 said:


> cam said:
> 
> 
> > > My boa
> ...



No, But his IP address is :wink:


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## CodeRed (Aug 7, 2006)

NCHERPS said:


> Chanty79 said:
> 
> 
> > cam said:
> ...



ROFL


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## austnik (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear of your loss Steve. It always makes me really sad to hear of such a beautiful creatures dying.

Regards, Nicole


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## nightowl (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear of your loss Steve. Sad news 

Best wishes,
Shane


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## waruikazi (Aug 7, 2006)

That's too bad Pugs. It always is difficult when you lose a pet.


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## SnakeWrangler (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey Pugsly, I am sorry for your loss mate, I lost a young snake earlier this year so I know exactly how it feels. 

I would also like to say that I think assuming overfeeding is the problem is a big leap at the moment, 2 rats every 10 days is not overfeeding. How many people have fed even more than this and had snakes live long lives and produce lots of fertile eggs? This kind of regime has been suggested as a standard for the last 2.5 years that I have been here, wouldn't this mean that people who have followed it (probably most have) should be having snakes die left, right and center?

Once again, I am sorry for your loss mate.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

Again I agree, I feel very sorry for the loss of a beautiful animal but IF it died from a blood clot how can it be attributed to overfeeding without an autopsy ? From what I understand a vet hasn't looked at the animal and looking at the small section of body the snake did not appear fat, the little groove in the back still seemed visible. 
What we have is people who are against 'powerfeeding' jumping up and down and telling us that is what killed the snake with zero proof. As SnakeWrangler says that amount of food for a heavy bodied snake is certainly not excessive. 
If an autopsy is done and the findings show the snake died of something totally unrelated to it''s diet will everyone withdrawl their comments ? I doubt it.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

Oh for christs's sake, here we go again. 2 rats every 10 days is far too much food for an 18 month old snake. Probably not every snake that gets "powerfed" (your word, not mine) will suffer bad consequences, but some will, and we should all try to minimise any potential harm to our animals from recognised threats. If you talk to any of the old timers in the game (those who keep individual animals for 20, 30 or more years), NONE of them ever feed their animals like this. And I'm NOT being critical of Steve at all - I was on the phone to him several times yesterday as this was evolving, so I know the background. I regard him as a good friend and we're only trying to help him at a difficult time. Boa, start another thread if you want to debate opinions again rather than offer useful advice. It is quite possible that powerfed snakes will suffer the same problems as humans in the short to medium term, and if you want to risk the long-term health of your valued animals, go ahead, no skin off my nose. Read the newspapers if you don't think obesity is a problem. I believe that any animal, and I include humans here, is under increased risk of long-term health problems if they are too fat. Any doctor or vet will confirm that.

I have seen 6 or 8 of those photos which Steve emailed to me last night, and Boa, if you are basing your opinion on the look of the snake externally, you are incorrect. There was an enormous amount of fat in the body cavity. 5 or 6 feet is WAY too long for an 18 month old carpet python, they would never get to that size at that age in the wild. Most of our captives do very little exercise, and get far too much food. 

I know as much as anyone how tempting it is to feed, feed, feed when your snakes so much as move a bit in their cages - I love watching them eat, I've never tired of watching them eat in 40-odd years, but the way to overcome that temptation is to have a few (or many) and feed them all at different times so you can get your feeding fix without jeopardising the health of individual animals.

Jamie.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

And Boa - YOU'VE assumed that we're anti powerfeeding, and blame it as the cause of death. It has only been SUGGESTED that it is a POSSIBLE cause. If you're pro powerfeeding that's fine, you seem to be an unsubstantiated expert on everything else.

Jamie.


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to see your loss Pugs.

I have to agree with Boa, to me your bredli wasn't power fed, 5.5ft at 18months is overly large for a bredli and feeding it 2 medium rats every 10 days isn't power feeding by any means
Like Boa said bredli are chunky snakes and would carry more fat in general than other species do, snakes do need body fat like all animals, it's not bad thing unless it is excessive, but for a bredli i wouldn't think that yours had to much.
I would see what a vet has to say if you can though i would be suprised if they said it was from over feeding.
Sometimes snakes just die, i know of people who have had snakes just drop dead like your bredli, which were fine the previous day.
I knew one guy who had 2 BHPs die in the same month both were fine and were found dead in the cage, they were taken to the vet and no cause of death could be found.


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## salebrosus (Aug 7, 2006)

The pics posted by Pugsly have certainly opened my eyes to what i am doing drastically wrong- luckily i haven't lost an animal from this as yet- I have learnt from Pugsly's loss so my urge to feed my babies so often will have to settle. Jamie and i were only talking on Saturday about how awesome it is to watch them feed and hard it is not to want to chuck a feed in etc.....but i am definately putting my BHP on a diet so i don't go through what Pugsly has. Hugs to you Pugsly!

Simone.


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## tan (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear of your loss ... but a valuable lesson learnt to many by the sounds of it. I hope that knowing milo's death may help other herpers learn the importance of our animals health may be a small consilation to you at this time. Thank-you for sharing this with us. RIP MIlo. :cry:


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## SnakeWrangler (Aug 7, 2006)

Well Jamie I know for certain one person who I have purchased a few animals off and has been in the game for a long long time and he himself told me, to my face, what he thinks I should feed the animals I have bought from him, one of them being my bredli and he would tell you that your wrong...

I am not going to say names because I do not want to be responsible for anyone dragging his name through the mud, but he must be one lucky man to have never experienced the devastating effects which "powerfeeding" have...

I mean come on a vet hasn't even looked at this animal, but it must be powerfeeding... Even if the animal is overweight, too much fat around the heart, whatever, the fact that so animals have been raised on a diet like this and never had problems at any stage in the animals life cannot just be luck.

Pugsly, I am sorry for contributing to turning this thread into a debate about powerfeeding, once again, I am sorry for your loss.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

Thank you, at least you and others can see what I am saying and not just clouded by thier personal opinions of me. I really couldn't care what people think of me, I know some don't like the fact that I say what I think and don't follow the crowd but that's the real world I guess. 
I am not pro or anti power feeding Jamie, if I was pro then I would do it myself.
You say 2 rats every 10 days is too much, many others say it isn't but you are right ? Why ?
Ask anyone who has seen my animals if they look fat, even slightly fat.



dugadugabowbow said:


> Sorry to see your loss Pugs.
> 
> I have to agree with Boa, to me your bredli wasn't power fed, 5.5ft at 18months is overly large for a bredli and feeding it 2 medium rats every 10 days isn't power feeding by any means
> Like Boa said bredli are chunky snakes and would carry more fat in general than other species do, snakes do need body fat like all animals, it's not bad thing unless it is excessive, but for a bredli i wouldn't think that yours had to much.
> ...


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## TrueBlue (Aug 7, 2006)

duga,- IMO feeding every 10 days is FAR to much, the animal will constantly have food, half digested food and waste in its tract at all times. VERY VERY bad IMO. Pythons that are feed this often tend to just lie around and digest food all the time, in the wild they will move around and further than most people think, which keeps them fit and lean. We should also remeber that the food wild bredli eat has a far less fat content that the captive rats that we tend to feed them, especially when the rats are breed in small tubs and get little exersize themselves.( the main reason i use bath tubs).
Put these to together and you can frequently have problems.
IMO after all food has been passed,(7-14 days, depending on time of year), the animals sould be left for days/weeks with an empty tract before being feed again.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

In a recent thread where you were selling BHP's they were a size consistant with animls that were well fed and were described as feeding like pigs. Now although you will obviously misconstrue this it is in no way an attack on you but what do you consider to be feeding like pigs in the context of young snakes ?


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

Well in general i feed my snakes smaller feeds more often because smaller feeds digest easier and the whole feed gets disgested.
After i feed my snakes in summer they are all crawling around they cages, looking for more food, they are far from inactive.
I haven't have any problems with snakes getting to fat or had any heath problems from over feeding.
IMO what i do is fine and i have been doing it that way for over 12years.

TB if you feed your snakes the amount you do how do you get the extremely fast growth rates you claim to, like your olives that breed at 3yrs of age?
I can't see how that is possible if you feed them small feeds once every 3 weeks or a month.
Not having a go just wondering if theres something i've missed in you posts about it?


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

I feed yearlings or 18 month old snakes rats that are eyes open just weaned. They eat a couple at a time and are always looking for more and are very active.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

Feeding like pigs may not mean they are being fed like pigs Boa, it may just reflect a healthy interest in food. TB is CORRECT in all he says. Obesity reduces the expected life span of birds, dogs, cats, humans - the statistics are in on this. It may also, it's just a slight possibility... affect the length of a reptile's life... give it a bit of thought.

AND for the last time, I saw the photos Pugs sent to me yesteray after I suggested to him that he have a look inside the snake for such things as haemorrhage (which he found), and I commented on the (large) fat bodies in the abdominal cavity as being a POTENTIAL cause of a problem. Fat in other animals causes vascular and heart disease, why not reptiles?

Just because bredli are heavy bodied doesn't mean they should be obese - who amongst us has seen wild bredli? Anyone dealing with bhp's wildcaught in WA will know that wild snakes are very lean indeed, even what we'd call skinny. Compare them with what you see in cages - there is no comparison.

Jamie.


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## Magpie (Aug 7, 2006)

> AND for the last time, I saw the photos Pugs sent to me yesteray after I suggested to him that he have a look inside the snake for such things as haemorrhage (which he found), and I commented on the (large) fat bodies in the abdominal cavity as being a POTENTIAL cause of a problem. Fat in other animals causes vascular and heart disease, why not reptiles?



It does, absolutely without doubt cause problems.
I do have a problem however withthe concept that an 18 month old snake would have a heart attack due to obesity. An 18 month carpet is equivalent to about a 10 year old person? (Or a 9 month old dog if you like). It is essentially unheard of for obesity to cause heart attacks in children this age, even though stats show that over 50% of them are overweight and do not exercise. And we are talking hundreds of millions of children here.
Fat snakes are bad.
Being fat did not kill Steve's snake IMO.


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## Kersten (Aug 7, 2006)

Hi Pugsly, 

So sorry to hear about Milo, it's terrible to lose an animal that you love.


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## indicus (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear mate; it's always sad when you lose something you love....
I lost a big beautiful dog tame jungle last year, from fatty liver....gravid with 20? plus eggs, so i was told. 
I sent it to mate on breeding loan....poor bugger he felt terrible.....apparently they can live with it for a long time before it finally gets them; however stress can bring it on sooner.....in my case it was probably the stress of the move etc that finally did it for her.....sad part is she was killed with kindness... It's always a tough learning curb when you lose something....either way mate; keep ya chin up, it's sadly part and parcel when keeping wildlife.....


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## triptych_angel (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry for your loss Pugsly, It is a real shame.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 7, 2006)

duga, quite easy really, most snakes dont have to be very big to breed for the first time they just only have a few eggs.
Ive said nothing about feeding very small feeds?, ill feed them a reasonable feed,ie 2-4 appropriate size items rather than 1-2 large ones, some times they are feed a few days after everything has passed some times a few weeks, i chop and change all the time, much like the food availability is in the wild, remebering that food is more often than not hard to come by in a lot of parts of oz where our animals originate from.
IMO they need to be left unfed to roam their tanks for days/weeks at a time as this is normal for how they have evolved.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

So it IS alright to breed them young ?


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

I don't think there much difference in what you do to what i do, i feed mine once a week, same day each week mainly because i work and have limited time to feed at other times.
But like yours mine will pass their food before their next feed and will roam their cage looking for food, particularly at night.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

Yes Boa, whatever you say Boa...

J.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

What do you mean ? I was asking a question. 



Pythoninfinite said:


> Yes Boa, whatever you say Boa...
> 
> J.


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanks for all the replys, and its good to see a debate on power feeding too so dont be worried about changing the thread.

I have only posted 1 photo as you all know, the others as Jamie has said show an enormous amount of fat ALL the way down to the tail basically, and as Rob said, he wasn't roaming his cage ever for food, he would be first in line come feeding time and nail it then sit under his heat source for the next week until I fed again.. Me thinking if he wants it he will eat it when in fact I was probably just killing him..

Others have been emailed the photos and commented the liver was also looking terrible and there was a clear hemeorage so at the moment thats where it stands. If there was something else wrong that could basically make it drop dead in a matter of hours then im all ears..

He was fed probably more 2 large than medium rats every 10 days, sometimes earlier, sometimes 2 weeks but never more than 2 weeks apart. So as Rob said he basically had something in him at all times and never needed to exercise alot beofre he got another feed..


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## TrueBlue (Aug 7, 2006)

duga, but once a week isnt enough time for them to pass all their food, if you left them longer i think you will find that there is more waste inside and that they are passing the weeks before feed alot of the time.

Yes boa, young pythons can and will safely breed, if an animal in the wild is sexually mature and a male has his way and eveything else comes to gether,ie good food season etc they will breed successfully.
I had a callout once with a coastal carpet barely 4 feet long around a clutch of eggs, the people were in the end happy to leave her there so the family could keep an eye on her once they knew she was harmless.
Ive also breed captive carpets at around the 4 foot mark and 2 1/2 - 3 years old.


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

Most of mine will pass food within a day or so after eating then more before they are fed again.
Even if they don't clean out their bowel before feeding again they are sitting around digesting the whole time.
Whats the big advantage to having them totally pass their food before feeding again, i know there advantages to them not digesting all the time but can't see any from not passing everything.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 7, 2006)

because they have evolved over hunderds- thousands of years to live the better part of their lives with an empty tract.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

I must admit I have never understood the idea that a snake needs to completely empty it's system before being fed again, no other animal to my knowledge needs to do this. I'm only an armchair herper so I know squat but like many other things I am hearing it seems to make no sense.


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

Who says they have TB? I've noticed several times if i have had a snake not feed for a couple of months when they do have a feed they pass very old food, which they would not have passed for a long time if they didn't eat again.
I don't think it would make that much difference to their overall heath and life span, excessive feeding would yes but so can excessive breeding from a young age.
I'm not saying your wrong TB obviously your results show that what you do works but i don't think your way is the only way.


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## CodeRed (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey pugsly, could you do me a favour and weigh your bredli (if you still kept him) and weigh the amount of food you would normally give him per fortnight.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 7, 2006)

explain to me then that when ever studys have been done on the stomach contents of wild pythons only barely 5% of animals tested had any trace of food what so ever, so its not days/weeks between feeds but more likely weeks/even months between feeds.

Your snake will still pass food without being feed, but over winter they do from time to time hang on to the odd turd for a while.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

I don't think that is in question but I think your assertion that they have somehow evolved to have an empty stomach for the majority of the time certainly is. What about snakes that have an abundant supply of food ? How do they cope with the adundnace if they have evolved to not be able to cope ?


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

Not having food in their stomach and having an empty bowel is two different things though, i don't doubt that most wild snakes rarely have food in their stomachs, but i doubt that as many would have a completely empty bowels.


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

> Hey pugsly, could you do me a favour and weigh your bredli (if you still kept him) and weigh the amount of food you would normally give him per fortnight.



He was 1.3 (there abouts kg) 

Here is his feeding records I just found!

20-5 2 x Med Rats (probably around 200g)
27-5 2 x Med Rats
30-5 1 x Med Rat
4-6 1 x Med Rat
10-6 2 x Med Rat
25-6 1 Adult Rat (Probably 300g)
2-7 1 x Adult Rat
10-7 1 x Adult Rat

That was his last feed..


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

How come you were feeding through winter and not cooling him?


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## olivehydra (Aug 7, 2006)

Kind of silly to compare the eating habits of wild vs captive snakes. I have no doubt that obesity in reptiles is a bad thing, but I also believe the life expectancy of captive snakes is much higher than their wild cousins (due also to the many other factors involved). 
The presence of fat is a good thing, without it the snake would be dead. The insulation properties of fat, and thus its effect on thermoregulation is the reason for its "internal" location in snakes as opposed to "surface" fat which is common in mammals. Excessive fat can kill a snake, but be aware that the years of "powerfeeding" have more than likley provided the snake with a much longer life than would have been expected in a malnourished wild specimen. 
Having said this, I dont powerfeed. I feed my snakes perhaps 10 small meals a year (200g rat for 12kg plus snakes). I have powerfed in the past, including supplements. Yes I think overfeeding is bad, but it really is just a hunch. The amount of research is limited and newbies must be made aware that most if not all husbandry info is based on "breeders" experience. A breeder may have a different agenda to the "hobby pet snake" individual. It is for this reason that I also believe that enclosure sizes are also to be questioned. People need to make their own informed decisions on what they feel is the best way to keep snakes. Diversity in husbandry is a great way to further our knowledge.


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

> How come you were feeding through winter and not cooling him?



Didn't cool any of the snakes in my room. They had no night time temps but only got down to around 15 degrees. I didnt feel I needed to cool them unless I was planning on breeding.. I offered he accepted over and over..


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

I am fairly liberal with my feeding compared to some but that is excessive and does paint a slightly different picture. In a 6 week period it appears to have eaten 11 adult rats. 



pugsly said:


> Here is his feeding records I just found!
> 
> 20-5 2 x Med Rats (probably around 200g)
> 27-5 2 x Med Rats
> ...


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## JEZ (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear Pugsly.

Terrible news.   

I've never fed anything like that amount but I know I have learnt something from your mis-fortune....I hope I'm not the only one.


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## NoOne (Aug 7, 2006)

I feel it's very important to cool snake reagards of breeding plans, it's important to give them that time off from feeding, but like you said alot of snakes will keep feeding if offered, i have quite a few adult snakes that i have no plans on breeding but they get cooled every year.

Live and learn from it pugs, thats all you can do.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

So Milo weighed 1.3kg and got 2.5 kg in less than 2 months. And there's often only 3 or 4 days between feeds, and big feeds at that. That's nearly his body weight every month... too much... too much.

J.


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## TrueBlue (Aug 7, 2006)

duga, most the studies ive read incuded bowel and stomach contents.


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

> In a 6 week period it appears to have eaten 11 adult rats.



Yes.. 



> Live and learn from it pugs, thats all you can do.



Absolutely.. I just thank god his girlfriend never ate anything like him and is still sitting pretty in there enclosure, she is half his weight and about 4-4.5 feet. 

Her feeding pattern was

20-5 1 x Med Rat
28-5 1 x Med Rat
3-6 1 x Med Rat
10-7 1 x Med Rat

Lot different.. and I am glad that no other snake of mine had the appetitie he did. Or perhaps I would have lost a lot more to over feeding..

Thanks again


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

> So Milo weighed 1.3kg and got 2.5 kg in less than 2 months. And there's often only 3 or 4 days between feeds, and big feeds at that. That's nearly his body weight every month... too much... too much.



Sorry he weighed closer to 1.4 but yes your correct. WAY too much and if I had looked at his chart properly like I should have been it would probably be noticed.. never again..


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

You actually need MORE snakes Steve, so you can get your feeding fix (I admit it's my favourite time!) but spread it over more animals. That's my solution.

Jamie.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

We all need more snakes, well most of us anyway. My freezer fills up much faster than my snakes can eat them.


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## steve6610 (Aug 7, 2006)

i'm with you duga,
my 18 month old snakes upwards don't get fed much through winter either way, breeders or not, 
the adults get fed about every 8 to 10 weeks in winter, the 18 month old ones get fed about every 6 to 8 weeks, my hatchlings or juv, get fed every 1 to 3 weeks in winter, 

just my way of doing it,


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## Nome (Aug 7, 2006)

Pugsly, I'm really sorry to hear what happened to your bredli, it's always hard to lose a snake, and I think that often people around you (non herpers) don't understand that it feels just as bad as losing a dog or cat. 

I think you're very thick skinned putting it up for public discussion, it's great to see you are using this to educate others.

It sounds to me like there was more at play with the fat stores, than feeding medium rats every 10 days. Like you said in another thread I think, sounds like it was more the size of the food, and also feeding him through winter when he was large enough to have his yearly break from food. It's hard when you have the garbage gutses too, that will always polish off any leftovers or refused feeds not too feed them too much. That's just my fairly inexperienced opinion.

Anyway, really sorry again to hear of your loss


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## Nome (Aug 7, 2006)

boa said:


> We all need more snakes, well most of us anyway. My freezer fills up much faster than my snakes can eat them.



lol, wish we had that problem


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

I have a few snakes and not that many rats as we have cut down over winter but we still breed loads more than we use, I gave another bag of them away to a mate who popped in the other day. I keep buying more snakes to eat them but I can't get enough


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 7, 2006)

You buy snakes to eat them??? Can't get enough??? I'd stick to pizzas Boa, cheaper and better for you!

J.


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## Retic (Aug 7, 2006)

I knew that didn't sound right. DOH.


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## tempest (Aug 7, 2006)

Pugsly, I'm really sorry to hear of your loss, Milo was an awesome looking Bredli. 

Thank you for posting this for us all to learn by. I know I'm really cautious about overfeeding my Diamond hatchy and my housemate is constantly asking me when I'm next feeding him because he thinks I'm not feeding him often enough (I feed him every 12 - 17 days)... this from someone who brings my dog home burgers, etc and is constantly giving him food despite being asked not to repeatedly. There's a lot to be said about feeding out of love or just because the animal is willing to keep eating. I'm going to be showing this thread to my housemate in hopes of making him realise why I won't feed Zeph every week.

Thank you for sharing again and big hugs.


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## MDPython (Aug 7, 2006)

What a great rememberance thread for Milo....
Sorry to hear bout your loss!!!  
But Thankyou for sharing was very interesting!!!!!
:mrgreen:


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## CodeRed (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey Pugsly,

Man thats a lot of food. Even my fatso bredli only get half that every 14-21 days. He must of been packing on the weight pretty quickly. My guys are putting on about 50 grams per month and shedding every 63 days or so.


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

The medium rats were probably more like 150g not 250 so that takes it down a little but looking at it now its still too much, he just never refused so I thought it was ok..

Glad this has opened some eyes up anyway so if it saves a few snakes then it wont be all in vain. Thanks again for the comments and its definately a learning experience..

Steve


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## CodeRed (Aug 7, 2006)

Yeap, mate it has opened my eyes. Shame you had to suffer for it though.


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## Magpie (Aug 7, 2006)

I've found that when you are feeding your snake a fair bit (and others have shown similar results) that snakes put on about 1/3 of the weight of their food. So a 300g rat means that they will put on 100g. Working on rough weights, the bredli would have gained 700g in 6 weeks (equivalent to gaining nearly 6kg in a year), therefore doubling it's body weight, not to mention that early feeds would have been up to 1/3 of his body weight. I still don't think the snake died of a heart attack due to obesity, but quite clearly this is excessive feeding and any weakness would have been exacerbated by the strain this would put on the snakes body. The snake has also clearly not been fed like this for it's whole life, it has not been powerfed.


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## salebrosus (Aug 7, 2006)

I don't cool my young snakes. I usually do it after about 18months of age. AND after seeing a few of Pugsly's pics i am definately over-feeding my BHP. I am very attached to all of my animals and i'd be gutted if i lost one but i'd be an idiot not to learn off Pugsly's experience. I really feel for your loss Pugsly.

Simone.


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## fishead (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey Pugs, comizerations mate and good on you for your honesty with posting the feeding schedule. It's all learning hey.
I'm not as experienced as most blokes here but for my humble opinion on things, 15 degree nights is cooling. And piling all those rats into a digestive system that's only swiched on for half the day would have to at least have contributed to the bredli's death. Not bagging you there pugs - just throwing theories around.
Got to disagree dugs on the snakes just up and dying thing mate. Things die due to something - most vets just don't know enough about snakes' guts to know what the something was. :lol:


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## pugsly (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanks again everyone..

Yeah for sure, a lesson learned the hard way thats for sure.

Cheers

Steve


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## Julie-anne (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry for your loss Pugsly and thank you for using this to help the rest of us. 
I think i might space out the feeds just a little bit more, just in case ...a little bit longer can't hurt hey.
I've love the pics you've posted of Milo


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## NCHERPS (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear of your loss Pugsly.
Good on you for letting everyone learn from it.
Chin up mate.

Cheers Neil


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## Thor1 (Aug 7, 2006)

Pugsly my condolances are all yours.
it would be absolutely heart breaking 
if i found one of mine dead. 
no matter why he died, it is tragic.


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