# Would you kill a cat....



## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

...with a collar?
We know that cats are very detrimental to our native wildlife...and it has been said that if it's out of it's house/yard it's feral...
But if it has a collar and you haven't seen it directly attacking wildlife... would you shot it, if you could?




EDIT: I am not having a go at anyone.* Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. *I am just curious as to other peoples' opinions.


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## CodeRed (Oct 15, 2007)

collared cats eat just as many natives as ones without collars


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## nickamon (Oct 15, 2007)

No. I would try to catch it and call its owner. Otherwise, I would take it to the pound. I'm not a fan of outdoor cats, because of the safety issues for our native animals, but also the cat's safety.

I know someone who does shoot cats, including pet cats, and I think it's reprehensible to make the pet pay for its owner's mistake.


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 15, 2007)

If it's outside, it's feral - very simple. 

Tim Nias used to have a cat skin on top of his entertainment unit...with collar still attached!


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

CodeRed said:


> collared cats eat just as many natives as ones without collars



What about the fact that it's a pet? Fair enough it shouldn't be running loose but still.... No consideration for the owners?


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

Jonno from ERD said:


> If it's outside, it's feral - very simple.
> 
> Tim Nias used to have a cat skin on top of his entertainment unit...with collar still attached!



Did he call the number on the tag and let the owners know to not expect their pet to come home?


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 15, 2007)

I don't know about that, but the skin definitely exists.

The way I see it, is that everybody in Australia knows that there are people who strongly dislike cats. They also know that cats get hit by cars, bitten by snakes, attacked by dogs, stuck up tree's and even run away. So why on earth would someone who loves their cat so much let it roam outside and be exposed to all these dangers? An outside cat is a neglected cat.


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## bump73 (Oct 15, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> What about the fact that it's a pet? Fair enough it shouldn't be running loose but still.... No consideration for the owners?


 
Well you could also say the owners have no consideration for the local wildlife....

And seeing as the wildlife can't fight for itself if it's out it's free game.

Saying this i'd most likely contact the owners and explain that if it's out again chances are it won't come home

Ben


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## RevDaniel (Oct 15, 2007)

I was sitting out the front yard undercover as it was raining the other night having a cigarrette. I was sitting there listening to a frog croacking when suddenly her cat jumped on it and tried to get away with the frog in its mouth. I picked up a bit of wood instantly and scared the cat into letting the frog go. The cat ran off but i made sure the frog got away.
If you were to find a cat with a collar whilst you are shooting out in the bush you should not worry about the collar and shoot it. Think of the damage it will do the the wildlife.


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

CodeRed said:


> collared cats eat just as many natives as ones without collars



very true Steve  

(imo) owning a cat that is not in an enclosed cattery (when outside) is just so 'anti-conservation' and irresponsible. .

I have no problems whatsoever with cats indoors or cats in an enclosed cattery ouside. But cats that are let roam outside will usually kill native animals, reptiles and birds if given the opportunity, and I find that totally irresponsible and anti-conservation of the owners that allow this to happen. 

I also find it disgusting that some people dump unwanted cats, kittens or dogs in the bush 'to fend for themselves' rather than trying to source a responsible home or take them to an animal shelter. 

It's not the cats fault (being a predator) but it is the fault of irresponsible cat owners (imo) 

Dogs that are let run free around the neighbourhood (and not kept on the owners property) are equally irresponsible (imo) as some dogs will also kill native animals and birds if given the chance

thats all I'll say on the subject.


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## maculosis_mandy (Oct 15, 2007)

I've been known to shoot them, no regrets. Probably saved countless lives of native birds , mammals and reptiles. Don't care what anyone else thinks aboutme admitting this, I at least saved some wildlife from being pointlessly killed.


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

I should have changed the poll options...
Not that I shoot animals.. but I'm fine with a collar-less cat being humanely shot, but I picked no to eliminating a cat with a collar. 
I guess it's a fine line really..because if I'd seen it more than once out and about it would be gone.. but if it was just once I would have empathy for its owners because it might have unintentionally escaped and they could be looking for it.

What a sob story!


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

I was at a friends house in the weekend, and no sooner had I said about how cats destroy native wildlife had their cat come up to me with a rocket frog in its mouth! Worse still, it was in their garden! So not even escaped!


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## JasonL (Oct 15, 2007)

Hard to see a collar through a scope at 100 meters at night, but as long as it's not near a house it's fair game.


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

slim6y said:


> I was at a friends house in the weekend, and no sooner had I said about how cats destroy native wildlife had their cat come up to me with a rocket frog in its mouth! Worse still, it was in their garden! So not even escaped!



Did they care?


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## CodeRed (Oct 15, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> What about the fact that it's a pet? Fair enough it shouldn't be running loose but still.... No consideration for the owners?


 
The owners had no consideration for the native wildlife their cat was consuming. Its not as if they can plead ignorance either. Everyone knows that cats eat whatever they can catch.


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

CodeRed said:


> The owners had no consideration for the native wildlife their cat was consuming. Its not as if they can plead ignorance either. Everyone knows that cats eat whatever they can catch.



Heh...or just catch and kill for the fun of it.


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## CodeRed (Oct 15, 2007)

JasonL said:


> Hard to see a collar through a scope at 100 meters at night, but as long as it's not near a house it's fair game.


 
yeah but if it one of those shiny fake diamond collars you can just aim for the glint in the spot light


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

CodeRed said:


> yeah but if it one of those shiny fake diamond collars you can just aim for the glint in the spot light



Hahahaha..oh dear.


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## Krystal (Oct 15, 2007)

Just because a cat doesn't have a collar doesn't mean it isn't a pet! My cat that lives with my mum doesn't wear a collar - she just gets out of them. She is allowed out during the day and stays inside at night. She has never caught a bird and they all start swooping her when she sits outside watching them. All she has been able to catch has been a baby mouse, a mouse in our garage and cockroaches and skinks. Oh and my pet mice  She is too scared to go anywhere and stays in our yard. Should she be shot?
My bf's kitten stays inside and only comes out on the verandah while I am out there. However I think he will be a hunter, so he will only go outside under supervision.
And what about cats that stay outside so they can catch mice and rats in stables and sheds? If you go into someone's back paddocks and saw a cat there would you shoot it then?


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## Tatelina (Oct 15, 2007)

Krystal said:


> Just because a cat doesn't have a collar doesn't mean it isn't a pet! My cat that lives with my mum doesn't wear a collar - she just gets out of them. She is allowed out during the day and stays inside at night. She has never caught a bird...



She has never caught a bird that you know of.


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## Magpie (Oct 15, 2007)

Krystal said:


> . All she has been able to catch has been a baby mouse, a mouse in our garage and cockroaches and skinks.


 
Says it all really doesn't it?

Obviously no one would condone shooting near a house so any cat seen through the sights is one that is out doing damage.
I don't hate cats, I hate that people think their cat has the right to kill other animals.
If someone boasted that their kid was killing native wildlife, people would be up in arms about it but cats... well that's just their nature isn't it?


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## Krystal (Oct 15, 2007)

Nope, no birds. As I said they all gang up on her and she gets scared. She is getting fat and lazy now though and she just sleeps all day.
I don't let her kill wildlife - I see it and take it off her. Then check it for puncture wounds. Generally when she sees us coming she drops it and runs now.
And as I said - my kitten seems like a hunter and he will be an inside cat only. Saying that though, mice and skinks still come inside - will I get into trouble then for my kitten catching wildlife?


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## Wrasse (Oct 15, 2007)

I would certainly kill a cat, regardless of collar, if I had due cause, although I would possibly give the owners, if I knew them/of them, an option to control the cat first. 

Too many scenarios for a cut and dried line.


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## bump73 (Oct 15, 2007)

Krystal said:


> All she has been able to catch has been a baby mouse, a mouse in our garage and cockroaches and skinks.
> 
> Actually I like skinks a hell of a lot more than cats...
> 
> ...


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## dickyknee (Oct 15, 2007)

I dont care what any one does with cats..... 
but its the owners who need to be educated , its not the cats fault , its only doing what it does .
as for people who kill them and say well it should not be out side , try remembering that when your snake gets out and your neighbour cuts it in half with a shovel .


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

Tatelina said:


> Did they care?


 (re rocket frog captured by cat)

No, they didn't. I rescued the rocket frog... but because it was dark I couldn't see the damage done. But it did hop away. So that was a good sign.

But their cat had a bell on it - though that doesn't help I guess vs frogs.

I'd imagine that cats could help (to some extent) control rats, mice and pest birds (all non-natives only) but as they're not selective - many natives will sucumb to the feline tenacity!


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## CodeRed (Oct 15, 2007)

Magpie said:


> ...
> I don't hate cats, I hate that people think their cat has the right to kill other animals.
> ...


 
That summed it up very nicely.


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

If the cat is outside of it's own yard, I say it's fair game.

When my partner was living in Sydney, a neighbour's cat wandered into his backyard. His dog (a Husky) caught and killed the cat - which was a pet, collar and all. As far as I'm concerned, if the neighbours wanted their cat to stay safe they should have kept it in their own backyard.


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## herptrader (Oct 15, 2007)

Guns in suburbia are .... how shall I put it? - Frowned upon.

Traps are however legal and can work well. When your moggy is bagged (collar or not) many/most councils will collect them (free of charge) and in my experience, most of those collected are humanely put down.


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## Pike01 (Oct 15, 2007)

Originally Posted by Krystal 
. All she has been able to catch has been a baby mouse, a mouse in our garage and cockroaches and skinks.

SKINKS ARE WILDLIFE,you are the problem here,and people like you.


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

Ummm.. pike... all the above are wildlife... Don't forget Australia has two native cockroaches (maybe more) many native skinks and several native (and somewhat rare) mice!

Just because it's not furry and live in a tree or is a reptile - doesn't mean it's not wildlife!

People can like cats, but get them de-sexed, keep them well fed, keep them inside all the time or don't buy a cat.


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## Moreliaman (Oct 15, 2007)

How do you keep a cat confined to a yard ??


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Moreliaman said:


> How do you keep a cat confined to a yard ??


 
In a cat aviary. There are a few companies that make them these days, Catmax etc (www.catmax.com.au). I used to have a Ragdoll, but she lived indoors 24/7. The aviaries are made of strong mesh, I guess if some native animal is stupid enough to go into the cat enclosure then it's bad luck for them.


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

Moreliaman said:


> How do you keep a cat confined to a yard ??



As I said, that may not work either - the cat I saw that caught a rocket frog was confined to its yard!


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

Moreliaman said:


> How do you keep a cat confined to a yard ??




In a cattery which is a aviary like structure that permits the cat to be ouside and also provides appropriate shelter for the animal. Similar to a dog run. When the owner wants to bring the animal inside they could enter the cattery, clip a lead onto its collar (in case it tries to escape) and take it inside their house. This solution may not be perfect as some small animals, lizards etc may enter the cattery through the small wire mesh, but at least it would solve most of the problem.

Dog owners are supposed to keep their dogs restricted to their own property and not allow their animals to roam the streets or trespass on other peoples property. 

I fail to understand why cat owners seem to think the same principle does not apply (or should not apply) to their cats? And seem to think their cats have the right to free reign where ever they choose to wander.


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## Krystal (Oct 15, 2007)

I do like skinks! But that still doesn't mean they should be inside. If I could I would love to keep skinks as pets. I also like mice and rats and keep them as pets, that doesn't mean I like the fact that my cat catches them. That is the reason that we take things off my cat when she catches them! They are domestic mice because obviously I looked at them when taking it off her! Besides I set up a cage for that baby mouse so I could keep it. If I see geckos and skinks inside the house I take them outside, if I can catch them. My bf's family take huntsmen outside if they catch them. :?

If my cat was a dog who stayed in her yard would it be any different? Does everyone like dogs better than cats so it is ok for dogs to be out? My dog used to catch birds, possums, etc. If anything you should complain about her, not my cat because she catches skinks and mice. Or is it because some dogs kill cats?

I'm not saying its ok for them to kill animals since they have no need to do it, but you all think they should be kept inside - it doesn't stop snakes,skinks, frogs, etc. getting into the house - it only stops cats from getting outside to catch them!

Maybe you should complain about all of the people who don't get their cat or dog desexed! They are the ones who let their pet get pregnant and then dump them and let them become feral!

Besides when I move into my own house I will take my kitten and also my cat from my mum and they will both be indoor cats. Especially since I want a frog pond, bird bath, etc.


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## moosenoose (Oct 15, 2007)

My cat chows down on native wildlife regularly


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Krystal said:


> My dog used to catch birds, possums, etc. If anything you should complain about her, not my cat because she catches skinks and mice.


 
I'm kinda with you on this one. Kataan (the Husky) still kills birds and possums when they wander into our backyard. But what are we supposed to do, muzzle him 24/7..? If a bird/possum/mouse etc comes into the yard and gets killed, I guess that's too bad for them. 

The difference is, he's not out wandering the streets like most domestic cats.


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## inthegrass (Oct 15, 2007)

Moreliaman said:


> How do you keep a cat confined to a yard ??



shoot it and bury it!


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## benson (Oct 15, 2007)

Poor kitty kitty!!!!


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## bump73 (Oct 15, 2007)

[quote=Krystal;969306

I'm not saying its ok for them to kill animals since they have no need to do it, but you all think they should be kept inside - it doesn't stop snakes,skinks, frogs, etc. getting into the house - it only stops cats from getting outside to catch them!

Is that really too much to ask, I mean keeping them inside???

Or are you saying that if it kills them inside why not let it kill outside the house.. I mean really how often does your cat kill things inside the house??

By the sounds of it your cat is exactly what this thread is about...Pet cats that are allowed to do what comes naturally which is kill:evil: This is the main point cats are killing machines and Australias wildlife has'nt had to deal with a predator like this previously, and has not had the chance to evolve any defences..

As for dogs, a dog in a backyard stays in the backyard, unlike a cat which has free reign unless it's in a catery, it can climb fences and trees etc


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 15, 2007)

I will never understand why any reptile keeper/lover would also keep and defend a cat
it just don't work
Dogs are mans best friend and smart
Cats are no ones friend and sly and cunning (plus germ carriers)
Take your pick


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

If I could catch it and contact the owners, I would.

If, after that, I saw the same cat on my property again, I would not hesitate to shoot it like I would any other feral animal.


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## Krystal (Oct 15, 2007)

My cat does not wander the streets, she is afraid of cars - our street is very busy, she is afraid of people when they come up to her. We live on a hill so our garden is 3 levels - she has been down to the 2nd level once. She is afraid of the dog next door which comes into our yard, and afraid of the cat on the other side who thinks our yard is his territory. She is afraid of the wind and obviously hates the rain. Does it sound like she goes out of our yard? Not only that but she likes to sit on the stairs outside when they warm up and likes sleeping on the verandah table in the sun. Besides, how do you stop a cat from running outside as you open the door?

Lots of skinks and geckos come inside! There was a tree snake in mum's bedroom last week - what do you want us to do about that? The cat showed it to her so mum caught it and let it go down the back.

Oh and by the way, skinks have something in them that make cats throw up when they eat them and also something that keeps them skinny. Considering I am the one who cleans up her spew, I know when she has eaten them - which hasn't happened in a long time!

I still don't see how anyone feels they have a right to shoot someone's cat! It isn't fair and for all it matters to you that pet could be a very important part of someones life! 

As I said before when I move out and have the ability to ensure my cat will stay inside then I will. The same goes for my kitten. But for now my cat will be allowed outside while she lives with my mum.


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Bredlislave said:


> I will never understand why any reptile keeper/lover would also keep and defend a cat
> it just don't work


 
What if it is kept in a cat aviary at all times? That's no different to having a dog in the backyard.

I'm a dog person 100%, but I don't mind cats (though I wouldn't say I love them).


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## moosenoose (Oct 15, 2007)

Bredlislave said:


> I will never understand why any reptile keeper/lover would also keep and defend a cat
> it just don't work
> Dogs are mans best friend and smart
> Cats are no ones friend and sly and cunning (plus germ carriers)
> Take your pick




I have a cat and a dog  So far it appears only the dog eats its own vomit


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## PhilK (Oct 15, 2007)

God I would hate for some redneck to shoot any of my pets...
That's like me seeing a dog with a collar and shooting it, because dogs have been known to eat natives and attack children... Nasty stuff.

Needless to say, no, I would not shoot a cat with a collar.


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## deebo (Oct 15, 2007)

I know of people whose dogs who will run and jump at fences to knock possums off the fence and then rip them to shreds. I know cats kill wildlife but so do dogs. If you want to be fair then shoot both.


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## moosenoose (Oct 15, 2007)

Personally I've upped the ante a little and have decided simply to start shooting the owners :twisted:


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

Krystal said:


> I still don't see how anyone feels they have a right to shoot someone's cat! It isn't fair and for all it matters to you that pet could be a very important part of someones life!



G.A.F?

If a pest animal is on my property, destroying native wildlife, then I am legally entitled to shoot it and feel no moral remorse about doing so, collar or not. Especially if I've already removed said cat once before!


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## Wild~Touch (Oct 15, 2007)

If cat owners kept their cats contained we would not be having this discussion 

I just hate it when the neighbors cat jumps out of my pit in my backyard with a baby lizard in its mouth


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

David Evans said:


> I know of people whose dogs who will run and jump at fences to knock possums off the fence and then rip them to shreds. I know cats kill wildlife but so do dogs. If you want to be fair then shoot both.



If thats the case with those particular dogs then maybe its the owners fault for not confining them to a dog run at night when possums are active. Cats roaming the neighbourhood is also the fault of irresponsible owners. 

I know what I'd prefer to shoot and its not the dogs or cats  

Ignorant and irresponsible owners are the problem not the animals.


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Bredlislave said:


> If cat owners kept their cats contained we would not be having this discussion
> 
> I just hate it when the neighbors cat jumps out of my pit in my backyard with a baby lizard in its mouth


 
Agreed. If I found a cat eating one of my herps I would probably strangle it myself then and there. But some cat owners are responsible, and those cat enclosures are certainly gaining in popularity. 



Colin said:


> If thats the case with those particular dogs then maybe its the owners fault for not confining them to a dog run at night when possums are active.


 
Kataan kills possums at night, and birds during the day. It's just not practical to have him confined to a dog run 24/7.


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## wood_nymph (Oct 15, 2007)

collared cat no, uncollared out in the bush looking like it's on the prowl yes. i'm not a fan of out door cats at all, too many dangers for the cat and the wildlife, in short if you love you cat keep it safe and sound indoors, if you don't introduced it to the outside world it won't know what it's missing anyway.


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Kataan kills possums at night, and birds during the day. It's just not practical to have him confined to a dog run 24/7.





If he was confined to an enclosed dog run at night that would solve the possum problem. In the day maybe if you attached some bells to his collar so he made more of a noise in the yard, it would give the birds more chance to escape his stalking. Maybe even a mussle during the day would allow him to drink but not to catch birds in his mouth.


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

Colin said:


> If he was confined to an enclosed dog run at night that would solve the possum problem. In the day maybe if you attached some bells to his collar so he made more of a noise in the yard, it would give the birds more chance to escape his stalking. Maybe even a mussle during the day would allow him to drink but not to catch birds in his mouth.



To be honest, if a dog (or cat) is killing critters in it's own back yard, then fair play to it. It is never going to impact the over-all population (unless every possum in the country decides to take a vacation in Miss B's backyard) like allowing them to roam (and breed) freely would, and frankly the impact of having a *house* where before there was only natural habitat is doubtless far more severe than the possums or birds Kataan might kill during his life.

Muzzling dogs, or confining them to runs is stressful for them, especially if it isn't normal behaviour for them, and I personally favour my dogs mental wellbeing over the life of a possum or bird.


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## Krystal (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> G.A.F?
> 
> If a pest animal is on my property, destroying native wildlife, then I am legally entitled to shoot it and feel no moral remorse about doing so, collar or not. Especially if I've already removed said cat once before!



What is G.A.F?

Anyway, are people even allowed guns? My dad got rid of his dad's gun and I thought it was because we weren't allowed them.

My opinion is that no one has the right to kill somebody's pet. They can take things to court and have the animal euthanised because of the law. But it is not right for people to kill someone else's pet.


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

Krystal said:


> What is G.A.F?



Give. A. And the last word starts with F...

Basically, I couldn't care less how important a cat is to someone else. If it's on my property, especially after I've already removed it and had it returned to it's owners, then it's fair game.



Krystal said:


> Anyway, are people even allowed guns? My dad got rid of his dad's gun and I thought it was because we weren't allowed them.



There are restrictions on firearm ownership, many of which were knee-jerk reactions proposed by the government of the day (which is still the government today) supported by non-gun-owning, city living 'liberals' in order to appear to address the problem. Which they didn't.

But in answer to your question, Australians are still allowed to own firearms. Your father probably owned semiautomatic rifles or shotguns, and wasn't eligible for an exemption when these were made illegal in 1996.



Krystal said:


> My opinion is that no one has the right to kill somebody's pet. They can take things to court and have the animal euthanised because of the law. But it is not right for people to kill someone else's pet.



It's also 'not right' for people to be blatantly irresponsible with their pets. I'm willing to give them a fair go, and return their cat (or dog, as the case may be) but if they continue, once warned, to allow their animal to freely roam the neighborhood, then the next time I see that cat and can get a gun in time, I'll give it another hole to breath through.


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## cris (Oct 15, 2007)

I wouldnt and havnt ever killed a cat with a collar(trapped plenty without them though). I personally would prefer not to kill someones pet myself, even if they intentionally put it in a position to get killed(outside there property), so if i got a cat with a collar i would take it to the pound for them to kill/have owners pay a ransom(or whatever its called) to get it back.

I think its great that there are ppl around who will just kill any outdoor cat in Australia it sends a very positive message. Sure a cat may be an important part of an individuals life but native wildlife is an important part of millions of ppls lives. If anyone cared for their cat they wouldnt let it out to get run over or trapped, seems a bit unfair for them to go blaming the person/animal that killed it when they were supposed to be looking after the animal in the first place. I also often BS to ppl who keep cats and tell them i always speed up for them and trap and kill collared cats all the time, sure most cat owners dont care about wildlife but telling them stuff like that makes them reconsider leaving them out to roam. 

Cats are a unnatural predator type in this country any decent person would want to see them all wiped out or atleast kept inside houses or in cages. Large dogs on the other hand ARE a natural predator in this country and can actually kill and eat cats. There is no real comparison between the 2 animals. Dogs can also be easily trained(there are exceptions) not to kill wildlife too.

Aside from ppl who care about our wildlife ppl who care about their health should also be killing cats IMO they would probably cause more illness than any other introduced pest.


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> To be honest, if a dog (or cat) is killing critters in it's own back yard, then fair play to it. It is never going to impact the over-all population (unless every possum in the country decides to take a vacation in Miss B's backyard) like allowing them to roam (and breed) freely would, and frankly the impact of having a *house* where before there was only natural habitat is doubtless far more severe than the possums or birds Kataan might kill during his life.
> 
> Muzzling dogs, or confining them to runs is stressful for them, especially if it isn't normal behaviour for them, and I personally favour my dogs mental wellbeing over the life of a possum or bird.


 
Yep I agree 100%. We're talking about maybe 2 or 3 possums per year, and half a dozen birds at the most. He is kept confined in the backyard (with 6 foot timber fences) at all times. I don't think it would be fair to have him in a dog run, he's a big active dog and we've got a huge backyard that he likes to run around. Same with a muzzle - unfortunately it's not practical.


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> To be honest, if a dog (or cat) is killing critters in it's own back yard, then fair play to it. It is never going to impact the over-all population (unless every possum in the country decides to take a vacation in Miss B's backyard) like allowing them to roam (and breed) freely would, and frankly the impact of having a *house* where before there was only natural habitat is doubtless far more severe than the possums or birds Kataan might kill during his life.
> 
> Muzzling dogs, or confining them to runs is stressful for them, especially if it isn't normal behaviour for them, and I personally favour my dogs mental wellbeing over the life of a possum or bird.



depends on the size of the backyard I guess. My point was that animal owners should be more responsible, more conservation minded with regard to native wildlife. When I lived on acreage I had heaps of satin bowerbirds, numerous species of wrens, gang gangs, numerous honey eaters, sacred kingfifhers, beardies, water dragons, numerous skinks, frogs etc in my front yard. I really don't think they are 'fair game' thats ignorant and irresponsible in my view. I think animal owners should try to have their animals co-exist with native wildlife so that killing is kept to the absolute minimum. 



> I personally favour my dogs mental wellbeing over the life of a possum or bird.


I would assume there would also be others that would value the lives of native possums, birds and reptiles over the life of your dog if it was a problem with native wildlife.


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## cris (Oct 15, 2007)

Also i dont really get the poll, generally where cats wear collars you cant shoot them and if you did you would probably have the tactical response squad around and you would be going to jail without a good lawyer. The only way to get cats around the city is trapping them or "tyring" them out.

It is also technically illegal in most states to allow your cat outside as it is in breach of the cruelty laws of most states. So not only are these ppl iresponsible scum, they are also criminals in most cases.


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

Colin said:


> depends on the size of the backyard I guess. My point was that animal owners should be more responsible, more conservation minded with regard to native wildlife. When I lived on acreage I had heaps of satin bowerbirds, numerous species of wrens, gang gangs, numerous honey eaters etc in my front yeard. I really don't think they are 'fair game' thats ignorant and irresponsible in my view. I think animal owners should try to have their animals co-exist with native wildlife so that killing is kept to the absolute minimum.



Can't argue with that. It's just that I would execute it differently, choosing to relocate or 'drive off' the birds before I muzzled or chained up my dog. Honestly, Kataan must be one hell of a stalker, or Miss B has unusually dense birds in her area. I've lived with *lots* of dogs on a large property for most of my life, and the only birds I've ever seen dogs catch and kill were our own chickens, ducks and geese. They were generally uninterested, or too slow and clumsy to catch anything else.

My current dog *loves* chasing birds. He spends literally _hours_ chasing seagulls at the beach, but has never even come close to catching one. I think they like teasing him!



Colin said:


> I would assume there would also be others that would value the lives of native possums, birds and reptiles over the life of your dog if it was a problem with native wildlife.



Absolutely. And if I was irresponsible enough to let my dog roam the countryside slaughtering native wildlife I would be upset, but not surprised, if someone shot it.
If my dog is on their property, it's fair game. Harsh, but fair. I would appreciate someone collaring and returning the dog, and I would attempt to do the same, so if it was a genuine mistake or error I could fix it, but an unsupervised dog on private property is fair game. You often hear stories about peoples dogs rushing into suburban yards and killing other pets, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms I would have no qualms in killing any dog that did that on my property!

I think part of the problem is boredom, and the other part is novelty. Our dogs practically lived in the bush, and spent all day romping around. Come night time, they were knackered. And possums were very commonplace, even with two dozen dogs or more sleeping in the shed, or on the veranda, ringtails and brushtails, and the occasional sugar glider could be seen in the garden on a very regular basis. In fact, if would be strange if you didn't see one or more every night! Our dogs knew what a possum was, knew they couldn't catch it, and couldn't be bothered going to investigate. They weren't bored enough, and were too tired!

A large dog like Kataan kept in a suburban back yard is never going to get enough exercise. He will certainly get adequate exercise to remain healthy enough and happy enough, but he will never be getting the exhausting (and stimulating) workout he would if he were to be left loose to roam as he pleases, and investigate everything his nose can find. So when he sees a possum (something he doesn't see all the time) he has plenty of energy and curiosity to expend, which invariably ends badly for the possum!


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

cris said:


> Also i dont really get the poll, generally where cats wear collars you cant shoot them and if you did you would probably have the tactical response squad around and you would be going to jail without a good lawyer. The only way to get cats around the city is trapping them or "tyring" them out.



Lots of farms have cats, many of which roam free. They don't always wear collars, but it happens often enough.

EDIT: I've never tried this, but apparently a dish of milk with half a dozen panadol crushed into it will kill any cat that drinks from it. If true, it would be quite effective in the suburbs...


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> Honestly, Kataan must be one hell of a stalker, or Miss B has unusually dense birds in her area. I've lived with *lots* of dogs on a large property for most of my life, and the only birds I've ever seen dogs catch and kill were our own chickens, ducks and geese.


 
He only catches those grey pidgeon things (I don't even know what they are called :lol.

Anything else, like lorikeets for example, are way too fast for him.



Charlie V said:


> EDIT: I've never tried this, but apparently a dish of milk with half a dozen panadol crushed into it will kill any cat that drinks from it. If true, it would be quite effective in the suburbs...


 
Apparently it's Asprin (as it thins their blood or something..?). My nan once tried killing her neighbour's cat by feeding it chicken that had been laced with Asprin. Must have been a damn smart cat as it refused to eat the chicken :x


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## Moreliaman (Oct 15, 2007)

Ok just wondered as we dont keep our cats caged over here, For some strange reason In the UK a cat is classed as a free roaming animal & is allowed to wander where it pleases.
Dogs must be kept on a leash in public places & some have to wear a muzzle.
Personally i couldnt bring myself to kill a cat or any other animal, i find it amusing that man creates a problem and then blames it on the offending animal when things go wrong.


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## cris (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> EDIT: I've never tried this, but apparently a dish of milk with half a dozen panadol crushed into it will kill any cat that drinks from it. If true, it would be quite effective in the suburbs...



Its actually asprin and its a pretty cruel way to kill them. Although its not really anyworse than using rat bait. Trapping them in a possum trap is the best method although i have heard of ppl using rabbit traps(apparently it makes a lot of noise).


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## Chris89 (Oct 15, 2007)

I don't think that I'd kill a cat, depends if it were feral and there was alot of feral cats that were actually affecting the numbers of the native wild life in that area.

I don't agree with people who buy cats, and then let them roam outside, that's just asking for trouble. We have 2 cats and have had them since they were 6 weeks old. They've never been outside only when they were in a cat carrier to be moved to the car and taken to the vets to be desexed and then on the ride home. 

The only animal that the cats have chassed/killed is the odd fly that might get into the house.

My friend has a cat, and she keeps it inside, however in their study room they cat has it's own free will to go out the cat door in the window into a cat run that goes along the whole side of the house that is fully enclosed. Which I think is perfectly fine as no wildlife can get in and the cat can't get out.


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## caustichumor (Oct 15, 2007)

Q. How do you make a cat go woof?
A. Pour on petrol and light!


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## Chris89 (Oct 15, 2007)

If you're going to control feral animals, do it in a humane way.


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> Can't argue with that. It's just that I would execute it differently, choosing to relocate or 'drive off' the birds before I muzzled or chained up my dog. Honestly, Kataan must be one hell of a stalker, or Miss B has unusually dense birds in her area. I've lived with *lots* of dogs on a large property for most of my life, and the only birds I've ever seen dogs catch and kill were our own chickens, ducks and geese. They were generally uninterested, or too slow and clumsy to catch anything else.
> 
> My current dog *loves* chasing birds. He spends literally _hours_ chasing seagulls at the beach, but has never even come close to catching one. I think they like teasing him!



:lol: yeah Its my experience that most dogs (especially large dogs) are usually way too slow for catching any birds. If they are more agile and fast (eg: fox terrier) maybe some bells on their collar would give the birds more chance to escape. 

And as far as possums go, usually the dogs end up sliced open from the claws if there's any real confrontation and fight. Most times its just the dogs 'chasing' the possums and barking causing a disturbance when they see possums on fences. 

Cats on the other hand seems to do much more damage from actual kills of animals, birds and reptiles.. 

I feel animal owners should be responsible and try to make their animals impact of the local wildlife as minimal as possible


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

Moreliaman said:


> Ok just wondered as we dont keep our cats caged over here, For some strange reason In the UK a cat is classed as a free roaming animal & is allowed to wander where it pleases.




Probably because cats have been there for so damn long, it just doesn't matter any more. They've integrated into the natural wildlife. Or did cats originate in the UK? I would have thought they would have been brought over by the Saxons, or perhaps the Romans.


Moreliaman said:


> i find it amusing that man creates a problem and then blames it on the offending animal when things go wrong.



Man doesn't so much create problems, as define them. We could simply let cats go nuts, abolish all quarantine control, and let evolution take it's course, and it wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

But we've decided we want to keep our native wildlife the way it is, for as long as possible, so having imported animals here is a problem. And the only way to fix it, is to separate those introduced species from our native wildlife, as much as possible.



cris said:


> Trapping them in a possum trap is the best method although i have heard of ppl using rabbit traps(apparently it makes a lot of noise).



:shock:

I'll bet it would!

How is the aspirin cruel? What does it actually do? Wouldn't they simply fall asleep from a lack of oxygen to the brain?


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## Chris89 (Oct 15, 2007)

Asprin makes their stomach swell and blow up, doesn't it?


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## Charlie V (Oct 15, 2007)

chris-cool said:


> Asprin makes their stomach swell and blow up, doesn't it?



I thought that was aspro-clear and seagulls.


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## tadpoles (Oct 15, 2007)

Cats have been known to chew off their own leg when trapped in a rabbit trap. 

At my house which i live at with my bf and his mum and step dad, we have 2 cats ,one ours roger and one their lucky. our cat has a collar, bell and disk, while theirs has nothing. 
One of our beardies was rescued from luckies mouth.( and with lots of TLC survived) I hate that cat.
But whats worse it that my bf parents don't care thet thier cat kills and eats native birds, mice, native lizzards and skinks, infact anything that moves that is small enough. it is basicly a domestictied cat that has turned partley feral, from lack of care, affection and food.
ARRGH makes me angry just talking about it. Some cats are more hunters than others but as a owner it is your responsiblilty to make sure you cat is not a danger to the native wildlife.

Sarah


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## Colin (Oct 15, 2007)

chris-cool said:


> I don't think that I'd kill a cat, depends if it were feral and there was alot of feral cats that were actually affecting the numbers of the native wild life in that area.
> 
> I don't agree with people who buy cats, and then let them roam outside, that's just asking for trouble. We have 2 cats and have had them since they were 6 weeks old. They've never been outside only when they were in a cat carrier to be moved to the car and taken to the vets to be desexed and then on the ride home.
> 
> ...




great stuff chris. thats what I mean by responsible cat owners  What we really need is for people like you and your friend to educate other cat owners so that their cats impact of native wildlife is minimal.


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## cris (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> How is the aspirin cruel? What does it actually do? Wouldn't they simply fall asleep from a lack of oxygen to the brain?



Im fairly sure it causes renal failure or something like that.


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## caustichumor (Oct 15, 2007)

That was an attempt at humour, I don't advocate a painful death for any animals, I won't even notch an arrow unless I have a definite kill shot. (cats would be a little harder to hit, so I have never actually shot any)


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## maculosis_mandy (Oct 15, 2007)

Feral cats and dogs have almost eradicated the bilby population.Just dispose of any cats out in the wilderness, not like they are an endangered species


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## Chris89 (Oct 15, 2007)

maculosis_mandy said:


> Feral cats and dogs have almost eradicated the bilby population.Just dispose of any cats out in the wilderness, not like they are an endangered species


 
Same as some humans. . . But we can't just dispose of them. I believe hilter already tried that once. lol


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## -Peter (Oct 15, 2007)

What collar?


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## Wrasse (Oct 15, 2007)

David Evans said:


> I know of people whose dogs who will run and jump at fences to knock possums off the fence and then rip them to shreds. I know cats kill wildlife but so do dogs. If you want to be fair then shoot both.


 
Good call. 

I am sick and tired of having to repair/euthanise blue tongue skinks and small carpet pythons due to dog attacks. 

Good for the goose, good for the gander. Or cats and dogs in this case.


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## Magpie (Oct 15, 2007)

Wrasse said:


> Good call.
> 
> I am sick and tired of having to repair/euthanise blue tongue skinks and small carpet pythons due to dog attacks.
> 
> Good for the goose, good for the gander. Or cats and dogs in this case.


 

I'm quite scared of dogs, people who let their dogs roam are even more irresposible in my book.
The major diference is that roaming dogs *are* taken away to the pound.


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## urodacus_au (Oct 15, 2007)

No need for firearms in suburbia, a bit of "Here pus pus pus" and a can of food will bring them right to the back door. Quick flick into a canvas bag and either hooked up to the CO2 bottle, hooked to the exhaust pipe of the car or taken down to the local quarry and shot. Quick and humane, id never condone cruelty to an animal unless that animal was of the Homo sapien variety. Too easy, and the collars make great ornaments in the shed....

The irresponsible cat owners ( i know theres a few responsible ones, a few...) seem to think that because a cat is a very skilled hunter, it should be allowed to kill unhindered. And they will go on about how its the owners fault and not the cats blah blah blah. That is very true, the owners should be strung up, but that doesnt mean the cats should be left to continue what they do unchecked. Its only a problem because these irresponsible people are too lazy to do what needs to be done. Personally i think you should need a license before purchasing a cat, and the premises inspected. If appropriate housing isnt provided the license isnt issued.

Krystal, your comments amaze me, god help Australia if someone with your mentality ever gets into politics.

Jordan


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## maculosis_mandy (Oct 15, 2007)

Yeah I agree, although not often Ive shot stray dogs in the bush, they are the same as far as Im concerned. Having lived out bush most of my adult life I've seen the devastation caused by both of them, also a feral dog is a danger to people as well.


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

Now there's an idea... cats found to be roaming the neighbourhood should be collected and taken to the pound. To get their cat back, the owner's should have to pay a fee. I guess that'd make them think twice about letting their cat wander the neighbourhood :lol:


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## Moreliaman (Oct 15, 2007)

Charlie V said:


> Probably because cats have been there for so damn long, it just doesn't matter any more. They've integrated into the natural wildlife. Or did cats originate in the UK? I would have thought they would have been brought over by the Saxons, or perhaps the Romans.
> 
> Man doesn't so much create problems, as define them. We could simply let cats go nuts, abolish all quarantine control, and let evolution take it's course, and it wouldn't necessarily be a problem.
> 
> But we've decided we want to keep our native wildlife the way it is, for as long as possible, so having imported animals here is a problem. And the only way to fix it, is to separate those introduced species from our native wildlife, as much as possible.


 
Yes cats have been here longer, although we have true wild cats in scotland i dont think they originated here, They originated from africa & i believe the egyptians were the first to keep cats as they used them to control vermin.
How do you work out that man didnt create this problem ? did they swim to australia by themselves ???


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## junglepython2 (Oct 15, 2007)

David Evans said:


> I know of people whose dogs who will run and jump at fences to knock possums off the fence and then rip them to shreds. I know cats kill wildlife but so do dogs. If you want to be fair then shoot both.


 
Agreed.


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## maculosis_mandy (Oct 15, 2007)

kelly said:


> Humans do the most damage to other animals, the environment and the world in general... Way more than any other species, so we might as well kill all them off :lol:


 

Well who am I to argue with such a mature arguement


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## herptrader (Oct 15, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> My cat chows down on native wildlife regularly



Moosey cracks open a beer and sits back to enjoy another cat thread :lol:


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## bump73 (Oct 15, 2007)

I think the dog argument needs to be put in perspective... 

Yes dogs do damage as well, but i don't think anyone will argue the point that there are a hell of a lot more cats roaming the streets than there are dogs. And a dog roaming the streets is generally taken to the pound whilst cats are pretty much left to their own devices which in itself should be changed and rangers should pick them up just like dogs..

I mean, really, of all domesticated animals why have cats been given the freedom to hunt at will???


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## HoffOff (Oct 15, 2007)

My dad Always Shoots Feral/Stray cats On the spot If its near our House I once Saw a Little Cat with a baby bird In its mouth Did that cat Live long? I think not!


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## HoffOff (Oct 15, 2007)

I own a Cat And really It loves my Blue'ys (dont Worry ii always Have a Eye on Him)


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## trader (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Yep I agree 100%. We're talking about maybe 2 or 3 possums per year, and half a dozen birds at the most. .


 
That is VERY sad!


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## maculosis_mandy (Oct 15, 2007)

trader said:


> That is VERY sad!


 

Yeah I can't understand how anyone can justify that on a reptile forum. I hope that dog chokes on one.


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## Australis (Oct 15, 2007)

If im driving/walking out in the bush, and i see a feral animal ill try to destroy it.
Sometimes ill see kittens, but you can never be totally sure if they 
had been dumped or not.

Ive never killed a feral dog though for some reason, maybe because they are a bit too 
dangerous to tackle unless you happen to bring firearms.

I would never shoot anything in suburbia, unlike some local @#$%^ 
who shoots snakes in his back yard.


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## croc_hunter_penny (Oct 15, 2007)

I say no to shooting collared cats, but yes to capturing them and either taking them to the pound or at least telling the owner why you captured their cat. If someone's cat goes missing, they don't realise that it is because it is a pest and has been captured/shot, they think "oh someone ran over my cat, I guess I'll go buy a new one!". 
Problems won't be solved if the person causing the problem isn't aware of their actions.


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## DiamondAsh (Oct 15, 2007)

*If it's got a collar, makes ot easier to hang front the front porch to scare off the rest ..... *


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

maculosis_mandy said:


> Yeah I can't understand how anyone can justify that on a reptile forum. I hope that dog chokes on one.


 
Gee thanks 

What do you want me to do, muzzle the dog 24/7? 

Do you have a dog? Does it roam free in your backyard? Maybe your dog kills birds too, or small lizards, and you just don't know about it. Perhaps everyone who owns a dog should be required to keep it in a dog run 24/7.


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B - aren't dogs easier to discipline than cats?

SUBSEQUENT edit:

If I can train a dog to put a bikkie on his nose and not eat it until i say so - then I think I can train a dog to leave possums and birds alone! 

Excuses are formed from laziness!


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## junglepython2 (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Perhaps everyone who owns a dog should be required to keep it in a dog run 24/7.


 
That's a great idea.


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

slim6y said:


> Miss B - aren't dogs easier to discipline than cats?


 
If we see that he has caught something, we remove it from him. But no amount of discipline will prevent him from chasing stuff, it's just instinct.


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B said:


> If we see that he has caught something, we remove it from him. But no amount of discipline will prevent him from chasing stuff, it's just instinct.



CODSWOLLOP! Sorry, I don't agree - see my edit to my post...

You train a dog to catch and kill or train them not to...

As I suggest, you can train a dog to sit with a biscuit on his nose and not eat it... 

If your dog kills a lamb or calf it will be shot - suprisingly enough it's not the same for wildlife here.

2 - 3 possums is not collateral damage - it's irresponsible owner behaviour.


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## Hetty (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B said:


> Perhaps everyone who owns a dog should be required to keep it in a dog run 24/7.



and everyone who drives a car should stop, and everyone who lives in a house should go live in a tent. And everyone who works should plant trees instead :lol:


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## Hetty (Oct 15, 2007)

slim6y said:


> CODSWOLLOP! Sorry, I don't agree - see my edit to my post...
> 
> You train a dog to catch and kill or train them not to...



You obviously haven't had a Golden Retreiver Slimy :lol:


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## slim6y (Oct 15, 2007)

thenothing said:


> You obviously haven't had a Golden Retreiver Slimy :lol:



Actually it was a labrador! Very closely related!


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## Hetty (Oct 15, 2007)

labs aren't gun dogs are they?


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## herptrader (Oct 15, 2007)

Miss B said:


> If we see that he has caught something, we remove it from him. But no amount of discipline will prevent him from chasing stuff, it's just instinct.



Then a bullet through the brain perhaps?


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## Miss B (Oct 15, 2007)

slim6y said:


> If your dog kills a lamb or calf it will be shot - suprisingly enough it's not the same for wildlife here.
> 
> 2 - 3 possums is not collateral damage - it's irresponsible owner behaviour.


 
My dog wouldn't kill a lamb or a calf unless they wandered into *his* backyard 

And how is my dog any worse than someone's little Maltese terrier that might catch and kill the odd skink in it's backyard? Should every dog be muzzled 24/7, lest they come across some small animal in their own yard? 

The difference here, is that I am a realist...



herptrader said:


> Then a bullet through the brain perhaps?



Could you have said anything less intelligent?


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## Hickson (Oct 15, 2007)

I'm closing this thread as it's beginning to turn sour and go off-topic.

The original question was whether you would shoot a cat with a collar, and I think the poll has plenty of responses. Hopefully you'll still be able to vote in the poll after the thread has closed.

Edit: Apparently not.



Hix


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