# Need Help with heating turtle pond (photos included)



## TurtleHermit (Jul 12, 2005)

I have to retype this whole post again, I just closed the window accidently just before I got to submit the post, what a pain in the ass. 

Anyway here goes. 

Ive almost finished building my turtle pond. But I need some cheap/easy way of heating it. It is only a 300L pond so i bought a Jagen 300w aquarium heater that is used for heating 600L - 1000L indoor aquariums. 
I was hoping that this would be powerful enough that it wouldn't have to be running 24/7. This would be an issue because I have to pay the electricity bill. Anyway I tested it out yesterday and the temperature originally was 20 degrees. I set the heater to 26. I checked in the arvo and it was only able to pull it up to 22 degrees. I checked this morning and it was at 21 degrees. 

Is it possible to solar heat the pond and if so. Any ideas how I could do this? Or does anyone know of a pond heater is isnt too expensive and won't use to much power? 

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. 

I posted some photos below so you guys can see how the pond is going. All that I have left to do is make a cover, which im gonna use a really strong flyscreen (you can buy flyscreen that is built to keep dogs from getting through it). Also I have do the wiring. You can see the filter in the second photo, the filter will be hidden inside the barrel. 
Also Im gonna put some plants and grass where you can see sand. 
Also I have some more snake proofing to do. We get some rather large carpet snakes around every now and then. 

So I have a bit of work to do but atleast the hard work is over. 
Here are some photos.


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2005)

Hi,what type of turtles are they and how big,just wondering why they need heating out side are they from northern australia?My juvenile longeck has been outside since birth in a 4 ft fish tank with 3 or 4 inches of water with half wire top and half covered.It is heaps colder in western sydney than gold coast,all his hatchling mates that were kept indoors snuffed it,he just hibernates.Expansa 1 should be able to give you help you need as he is the turtle expert and breeder here i think.


----------



## instar (Jul 12, 2005)

Definately ask expansa! heres a tip or two though, you might remove the pavers insiders the fenceline and add soil/sand, for digging just to allow more room if your going to breed later. Dont have those rocks in the corners unless your going to completely cover the top with wire, or you do away with the nice looking logs and use something like alsynite or laserlight (smooth sides) turtles are incredible good climbers beleive it or not, I can see them scaling that timbre. Also keep in mind any barricade should extend well into the ground to prevent turts digging out or rats/foxes digging in.
Not sure heating would be req especially on the goldcoast, are you planning on putting hatchlings or small turts in their ? not sure how they'd go, but generally hatchlings are not cooled the first year or two.
If all else fails, a spa would go great right there! what a beautiful backyard too!


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 12, 2005)

I only have one. He is a Macquarie shortneck about 4 inches across the shell. It doesnt really get cold enough for him to hibernate and I had the impression that a low temp left them more susceptible to illness. For example, the water temp would prob average about 20 degrees in winter. 

The whole thing will have a wire cover so he wont be able to escape. I put concrete at the bottom so he cant dig his way out. 
I put the pavers in because the pond is on a very slight angle but it meant that any rain on that side would be washed into the pond. So I didnt want soil or sand there for that reason. I prob could have made a small drainage system or something but I didnt really plan it well enough. 

Instar, my folks had a spa put in about 6 months ago just around the corner from where the pond is positioned. Its awesome. Money definately well spent. Well I think so anyway considering I didnt pay for it


----------



## freerider (Jul 12, 2005)

Maquarie River Turtles shouldn't need any heating at all as long as the pond receives about 8 hours of sun a day, The turtle will just bask to adjust his temp, if you look where they occur naturally you will see that they can withstand cool temps easily, I have breed these guys in the western suburbs of sydney many times with no heating or anything, just feed a varied diet (with whole prey) and keep their water clean and the should be fine.
good luck


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 12, 2005)

So would an average water temp of 20 degrees be alright? Because I dont really want him to hibernate. It does get pretty cold at night too. I dont know how low the temp could go over night. I would prefer to find a way to heat it if it is possible.


----------



## Already_Gone (Jul 12, 2005)

how come you dont want him to hibernate...


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 12, 2005)

Cause I like to feed him and watch him. Pretty boring if he hibernates half the year.


----------



## expansa1 (Jul 12, 2005)

Firstly, how deep is the pond and is it in an area that will receive direct sunlight in summer? If it is less than 60cm deep there is the distinct possibility that the water will overheat which could ultimately lead to the turtles death! 

A cheap but effective way to heat the pond would be to have the water pumped through black irrigation pipe (poly pipe) and have the pipe on the roof of an awning or adjacent building. The more coils of poly pipe you have up there under the sun the more heat will be generated. You will probably have to have a thermostatically controlled solenoid that stops the flow going to the roof when a certain temperature is reached. The biggest problem with this type of system is priming the pipe with water first so that the head height to the roof is not too great. You will need a check valve (one way flow valve) straight after your pump to stop water draining back through the pump and your return must be below the water line.

If you need any more info or advice on how to set it up contact us on 07 5447-9540. or email [email protected]

Regards,
Expansa1

Craig & Gabrielle


----------



## trader (Jul 12, 2005)

Hi TurtleHermit  I would 1st like to say I LOVE the look of the surrounding area of your home!! Man that must be great! You must get so many birds and wildlife near you!
We have 6 long neck turtles that live outside in the pond all year long. Well 5 are hibernating right now, one just couldn't 'figure it out' so she is in the house in a tank for a few months.... :wink: 
We have a path made of pavers in the fernery where the pond is and found the turtles tummies were getting rubbed and scratched from them, causing wounds.  We now have covered the path/pavers in mulch. Just an idea, as I noticed the pavers in your pond area. Just remember turtles are great climbers...even on straight up/ flat surfaces... :shock:

Have fun, we sure do enjoy our turtles!


----------



## herptrader (Jul 12, 2005)

On the climbing front for example we have a small flight (6) of concrete stairs leading from the fernary to our back door landing. During the summer it is not unusual by a turtle or two at the back door waiting for you to come out and play... and these are turtles whose shells are as long as the steps are high.

I have also heard of farmers finding turtles at the top of chain wire fences because they climb up them but struggle to get over the top.

On the heating front we have 150 watts of pond lighting in a pond of about 1500 litres. They are on for a few hours each evening and as far as I can tell it makes bugger all difference to the pond temperature... of course the water feature would be helping out pond cool down on cold evenings.


----------



## Guest (Jul 12, 2005)

If you have maquarie you will finf they are omniverous TH the adults used to really like eating water hyacinths,its introduced dont see much now used to be good pond plant but there is other plants theyd eat.


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 12, 2005)

Thx for all the comments. Expansa, the water level is about 50cm so keeping it cool during summer will be an issue and is something I have thought about but have no underlying solution for. I'll wry about that when it starts to heat up. Thx for the idea for heating, ill be giving your method some serious thought. 

For all those who are worried about the 'climbing' factor. There will be a cover over the top so that won't be an issue. 

Trader, thx for the advice on the pavers, i'll look into putting something over the top that wont scratch his belly. The idea of the pavers was so that dirt or sand wouldn't be washed into the pond when it rains, but I could put something over the top.


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 13, 2005)

Expansa, the only problem with that method is that during the cold months the sun doesnt produce much heat. I don't think the pipe will absorb enough heat in winter when it would be needed, and the pond will still lose alot of heat at night. Maybe I'm best to just introduce him into it during summer then let him adjust to the conditions when it starts getting colder.


----------



## freerider (Jul 13, 2005)

Just let your turtle hibernate mate!!! It's natural!!, If it gets to cold he will go to sleep, It's not really advisable to mess with a herps natural behaviour just so you can ''play with it''. It will save you money on food and heating and also probably benifit you animal!


----------



## herptrader (Jul 13, 2005)

While we are on the turtle topic I am more than a little curious about our little girl that refused to hibernate. Is this unusual? We have 6 turtles and I have set up a range of hide spots for them to over winter. One is wedged under the entrance ramp and in the water and 4 are using the hide spots. (wooden panels covered thickly in mulch).

This little girl I got from a woman who could no longer look after her (the woman had a fall when cleaning the pond). The turtle was small and had obviously not been fed much for the last 10 or so years. Despite being scrawny she seemed healthy enough and ate well all of last summer. However when all the other turtles started pushing out Z's she was wandering about every day. I did not want to feed her when it was cold so we ended up bringing her into the house and setting her up under a uvlight in a fish tank. We will put her outside again when the other turtles emerge from hibernation.

Is this unusual? Did we do the right thing by bringing her inside?


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 13, 2005)

freerider, the problem is the temp does not get low enough here for him to hibernate. THAT IS THE PROBLEM!! I had the impression that when they are active in cold temps (20 degrees) it leaves them open to illness more than a constant higher temp. I want to heat the pond cause it is the right thing to do, not because I want to "play with it." So maybe before you question my motives you should read all the posts and get your facts right. 

I was also told letting a captive turtle hibernate within the first few years is dangerous to their health. I'm not spending money cause I want to. I'm looking into it because I feel it is the best thing to BENEFIT my turtle.


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 13, 2005)

herptrader, If she wouldn't hibernate then you definately did the right thing.


----------



## freerider (Jul 13, 2005)

Ha, HA , ha, settle down, What do you think young turtles do in the wild? go and lay on a heat mat? 
Also dont forget you wrote
" Cause I like to feed him and watch him, pretty boring if he hibernates half the year"
Maybe you should go back and get your facts straight
If it get's to cold for it it will hibernate, if not then he will continue to feed, If it's not cold enough to hibernate why heat the water? I think your winter water temps would be almost the same as the summer temps in the lower murray river ( it's natural habitat) the turtle will bask to adjust it's temp as long as the pond recieves ample direct sun. Do some research on your particular species ie: climatic regions. If you had a Northern snapping turtle of a Fly river then you probably would wanna heat the water, wasn't trying to be rude, just pointing out some facts,


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 13, 2005)

I also said "It doesnt really get cold enough for him to hibernate and I had the impression that a low temp left them more susceptible to illness" Which is my main argument. 
I am paronoid because I was told that you should not let young "captive" turtles hibernate in the first few years. So maybe it was ****ty information, maybe not. But I do believe strongly in "safe than sorry". 

The pond will recieve sun light although there isnt much warmth in the sun this time of the year. 
The text below came from the book 'keeping shortneck turtles' by Darren Green. Its says they should be maintained between 22 and 26 degrees. Now, the average water temp here in winter is about 20 degrees. 





http://www.zoo.org.au/education/factsheets/rep-turtle.pdf
That is a link to a turtle factsheet from the Melbourne Zoo. On page 8 it says "A temp below 20 degrees will cause digestive problems"
And on page 6 it says "young turtles should be kept warm all year round and only allowed to hibernate after the second year".

Now I had the impression that turtles only hibernate if the temperature has dropped below 18 degrees but I could be mistaken. Now my problem is that winter here the water temp will not get that low, but will not really be warm enough to be healthy for the turtle. 

I have made the effort of finding some evidence to back up my comments. Freerider, maybe you would like to do the same.


----------



## freerider (Jul 13, 2005)

Ha, HA did you tear that page out and photocopy it??? I'm not bagging you mate just offering advise based on my own experience?
All you have done is contradict yourself, you said that you wanted to heat the water because you didn't want the turtle to hibernate so as you can still enjoy it :roll: :roll: , then you go on to say that the water doesn't get cool enough for it to hibernate? So whats the problem? I think your being a bit paranoid (not a bad thing) A water temp diffrence of 2 degress? I think that if the turtle can heat up enough in the sun to digest it's food it should be fine, If it's to cool then it will stop feeding. Just my advise take it or leave it mate cause frankly I'm sick of typing
Good luck


----------



## SLACkra (Jul 13, 2005)

might be a bit expensive but you could always go to a pool shop and buy one of their solar heaters. they are automatic ect and if its sunny it should keep the pond warm.

andrew


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 13, 2005)

Freerider, I scanned it in. Is that meant to be funny?
Yes I am being paranoid. But I don't want him to die. 
Yes I contradicted myself because I originally didn't want him to hibernate cause I wanted him to be active all year round and I had been told that it is not healthy for young captive turtles to hibernate in the first few years. But then I realised that the temp actually wouldn't go low enough for him to actually hibernate. The water temp would sit on about 20 degrees, therefore I have no choice but to heat it. So I could risk it like you obviously have with your turtles or I could go to the extra trouble and do the right thing and heat it. 
So I think I will leave your advice. 

Slackra, thx for the idea. I'll go check out some pool shops this arvo, see what prices I would be looking at.


----------



## SLACkra (Jul 13, 2005)

expensive probably, they install them on your roof. this black piping stuff. the whole things autmatic. once the wtaer in the black tubing gets warm enough its pumped back into the pool or in your case pond. 

andrew


----------



## SLACkra (Jul 13, 2005)

oh jsut got an idea! insulate the pond area as alot of the heat from the water will be transfered to the ground around it. also probably not possible but a lid would help keep the heat in though i am not sure how much uv/uvb light would be filtered out the glass or acrylic.

andrew


----------



## instar (Jul 13, 2005)

Most if not all uv is filtered out by glass or plastic, not to mention sun shining thru glass can heat the water more than sun alone, like a magnifying gass. How would they leave the water with a lid? lol
I beleive macquarii's have been found active with a body temp of just 16 degrees (cann) a turtle wont eat if temps are consistantly low or will simply eat much less, warm days provide oportunitys to bask.
At 4 inches across its prolly got enough size to withstand 20 deg easy, it wont hibernate at 20 deg anyway, mine dosent, and it continues to eat as much as it can. Have you actually measured temps in the pond water overnight? if its not dropping below 20c theres really no need to heat it, trust me.
As craig said though, if its not deep enough youll have probs keeping the temp down in summer if it gets 8 or more hrs of sun. consider some carefully placed trees or shrubs near the pond to provide cooler areas of shade.
Darrens book refers to keeping indoors at less than about 4 inches across, but again, 25 is way warm enough in summer, edging toward too warm. Remember no matter the sp or its natural locale, they are ectothermic too, too warm temps means faster metabolism, more food required, faster (too fast quite often) growth, which is not a good thing.
Freerider is correct, hatchlings in the wild manage to survive, folk tend to over sook them in captivity, with too high temps, too much food.
If you keep the water quality at its very best, feed a balanced diet, and they get plenty of uv, your turtle will thrive! These are the three most important factors. :wink:


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 13, 2005)

thx instar, 

I might make a cover for it to put over it at night. I have measured temps and it goes down to about 19 degrees at night (about 10pm) and rises to about 21 degrees during the day. Though it could get colder than 19 really early morning. 

I still wanna heat it. If I can heat it easily and cheaply then there is no reason not to. 

It will overheat in summer but that shouldnt be too difficult to fix. I'll worry about that closer to the date. 
I might just leave him in his tank until summer. then he can gradually get used the the colder weather when it arrives next year.


----------



## instar (Jul 13, 2005)

Turtle hermit, its your pond, heat it if you wish. When I said there is no need to heat it, I meant there is no benifit to the turtle/s from heating it whatsoever. If your planning to keep up a supply of fish for them to eat, and plants, you might find heating it, may not suit the fish or plants, dep on species, you may or may not also find that heated water may boost the growth of certain algaes.
Dont take my word on that one, im no botanist, just a thought. Oh yes, be sure about drainage around the pond, you will need to empty it sometimes to clean out leaves n muck, going by the trees in the pic, and for general maintainance (algae control (physical removal is ALWAYS better than chemical). It will overflow when it rains heavily, so be sure the ground around it is stable, to prevent the pond moving/sinking, and really well drained so it dosent get muddy and waterlogged, that will be important if you breed later, eggs wont do well in ground that stays wet for a long time after rains.
love to see pics when its done. :wink:


----------



## freerider (Jul 13, 2005)

Some good advise there instar, In the end turtlehermit as instar said its your pond and if you wanna heat it then do it, none of us are absolute experts (well I think expansa1 is pretty close), we are only goin on experience from our own trial and error.
good luck with it


----------



## inthegrass (Jul 13, 2005)

nice spot for a spa.
cheers


----------



## TurtleHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

Thx for all the comments and advice. And freerider, thx for the argument  No offence intended. 
I'll post up some pictures when its completely finished.


----------



## freerider (Jul 14, 2005)

No worries champ, looking forward to seeing photo's :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## expansa1 (Jul 14, 2005)

Hi TurtleHermit,
If the temperature of the pond only drops to around 19-20 degreesC overnight then you really do not have to heat it, although it is your decision and is entirely up to you. I have bred thousand of turtles over the years and recommend not feeding them if the water temperature drops to 16deg.C or below. 
19 deg.C or above is actually a good temperature for them. Most people recommend around 24-26deg.C if you are keeping them in an indoor aquarium situation.

Regards,
Expansa1


----------



## Jonathon (Jul 16, 2005)

Try measuring the water temp now as it is winter the water would probably be at its coldest. Just try notto feed it for a few weeks before it goes into hibernation. Turtles are quiet easy to keep. The main things are feeding, water quality and UV. They are hardy animals... keeping a turtle is sort of like keeping a brick that grows lol.


----------



## instar (Jul 16, 2005)

Are you breeding bricks Jonathon? put me down for hatchies! are they red phase?


----------



## Jonathon (Jul 17, 2005)

Yep red phase... i've also got an albino for sale, he can be yours for $28,000. The red phase are all fully grown adults going for $250 each.


----------

