# 2012 and we're now OK with hybrids?



## Jason (Feb 4, 2012)

I just love the fact that so many people that support the making these 'Morelia milkshakes' use to openly appose hybrids. I like the look of a good looking jag but after only a few years I have no trust in the 'Morelia market'. I'm already doubting purity from some of the 'big breeders'... said really.
Already I see some people selling 'coastal jags' that aren't pure coastal, some have atleast 25% murray darling. The prob is that some guys will breed these to coastals and sell sibs as coastals when in fact they aren't pure. You'd have to be a complete ignorant clown to say this isn't and wont continue to happen. BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?


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## AndrewHenderson (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't, they're ****e and will never like cross breeds.


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## Raddy318 (Feb 4, 2012)

i personally have no problem with them, but i wouldnt go to far out of my way to breed them, like every hobby people will have diffrent opinons with everything


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## PythonLegs (Feb 4, 2012)

Nah, we've just argued till we're blue in the face. I wouldn't trade a childreni for all the mutant twitchy mongrels in the world, but there are plenty who love 'em.


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## grannieannie (Feb 4, 2012)

I think it's a bit like cats and dogs. I used to show dogs for a couple of years and in those days, some breeds had their tails docked. There was always arguements about it. Now, it's illegal to dock...I was always against it. Now some "designer" dogs are considered ok to show and are considered breeds in their own right. However some purists will never agree. I'm long out of the show scene now and have a little rescue cross.

I think the same will apply to repiles, there'll always be the purists, and there'll be the ones who like a mix.....each to his own I reckon.


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## PythonLegs (Feb 4, 2012)

The problem comes with people breeding for profit. Trying to get RP caramel silkback hypo het for technicolour bredli, a percentage will be what you want, others will look like regular old bredli..they often get sold as pure bredli, though, as no one wants an 'ugly' hybrid. Eventually we could end up like the aquarium industry- I'm driving a 6 hour round trip tomorrow to get a pure breed of cichlid, cause every one I've come acoss has been hybridised to some degree, even though the owners have no idea.

ARGH..why am I debating this issue again?? Might just take my meds and go sit in the corner til this all blows over again.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 4, 2012)

Your poll doesn't include option an for people that are ok with JAGs and the breeding of them, but also want to have and promote pure lines, there is room for both in the PET trade, anyone who cannot see that by now is kidding themselves.

Also I wonder if you cannot trust someone about them telling the truth about purity then why would you be dealing with them in the first place?


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## smithson (Feb 4, 2012)

Hell no don't want jags !!!!!


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## craigryan (Feb 4, 2012)

Totally agree with Geckoman. Have your jag projects and keep pure lines pure. Simple!!


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## Darwin-Girl88 (Feb 4, 2012)

Totally against it!! IMO....


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## Jason (Feb 4, 2012)

You're missing the point of the poll. read the question and answer again... is it now more accepted then before? i.e. have you changed you view on the situation. this wasn't started as another for or against thread that a bunch of people just talk crap. We have plenty of them on here! It was aimed at a specific question. IMO it seems many have jumped ship and no longer appose it. Has your view on hybrids changed? peoples views use to be very passionately apposed to hybrids etc but it seems that some of those same people have changed views on the topic. Why?


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## Pilbarensis (Feb 4, 2012)

The hobby has definitely changed a lot in the last few years, personally I feel that some people will be okay with it and others won't be okay with it. As a hobby I don't think we can say yes or no yet. Personally I feel that cross-breeding morelia is the same as cross-breeding dogs and its been done for years and years and years! So as long as the pythons are well kept, healthy and it is not done purely for profit I have no problem with it.


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## Ned_fisch (Feb 4, 2012)

I don't mind a few hybrids here and there, I think a lot of them are nice. Personally, I don't wish to breed them myself, and I hope other breeders that are out there doing the crosses, keep some pure stuff going too, but good on them for doing something new. It wouldn't be the fact of the hybrids that'll upset me, it'd be if we were ever to turn out like the states and other international keepers. I don't want crosses to flood our market.

Bottom line for me is, keep pure lines, at the end of the day, they're the most beautiful pythons in the world.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 4, 2012)

There might be room for both but believe me there are plently of people who will have nothing to do with people on the hybrid side of the fence.


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## Wrightpython (Feb 4, 2012)

Its a quicker easier way of getting colour mutations rather than spend countless years and many generations line breeding and the animals should be stronger and less prone to ailments if they are like other crossbred animals


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 4, 2012)

What ailments are pure reptile suffering that mongrel snakes aren't ?


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## Bandit05 (Feb 5, 2012)

I was always against it, Im not sure if Ive really changed my mind on it as much but before I found them hideous looking things but there are some nice looking ones popping up. I only keep pure breds and have no plans on ever breeding any which is why breeders sell me there bad feeders cheap I guess. Im going to have to get a sore bum and sit on the fence on this issue I guess, I will stick to pure breds myself but to each his own. Im not going to bag someone on the decissions they make


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## Wookie (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't have a problem with hybrids as long as they are sold as such. Jags are the cancer of the industry IMO.


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## Tsubakai (Feb 5, 2012)

Wookie said:


> I don't have a problem with hybrids as long as they are sold as such. Jags are the cancer of the industry IMO.



That's the problem right there. In time they will not be sold as hybrids. Just check out the bird or fish hobbies - very difficult to get pure strains of many types in both those fields unless you are getting wild-caught or F1/F2 offspring.


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## BigWillieStyles (Feb 5, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> Its a quicker easier way of getting colour mutations rather than spend countless years and many generations line breeding and the animals should be stronger and less prone to ailments if they are like other crossbred animals



Crossing* within* a species can assist with increasing genetic diversity which is good for a species, but crossing species can cause outbreeding problems and actually loss of important alleles. If you breed two types of dogs with each other, this is within a species, but if you were to cross a dog and a cat and create a hybrid, you would imagine the survival of that animal to be severly limited with losses to behavioural and morphological characteristics. In many ways they will be worse off. Look at the neuro issues that are popping up. 

And what happens to all the normal looking hybrids that are created through the breeding process. These are no longer a 'species', but will likely be sold into the already closed captive population and will likely be bred by someone who doesnt understand their history.

The actions by those who breed hybrids affect everyone else in the hobby.


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## Wrightpython (Feb 5, 2012)

As i have stated in previous threads its about time we start pedigreeing our animals that way you have sire and dam history works with other animals why cant it work with ours. i personally dont see its wrong to cross animals that can naturally cross in the wild like diamonds and coastal carpets but crossing olives with diamonds is wrong. Although a albino diamond would look good.



PilbaraPythons said:


> What ailments are pure reptile suffering that mongrel snakes aren't ?



Maybe we could breed out ri and the like by crossbreeding. what about the jag problems it would be nice to breed that out of them because there colours are worth it. i personally dont breed crosses but i can see the appeal


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## Cockney_Red (Feb 5, 2012)

craigryan said:


> Totally agree with Geckoman. Have your jag projects and keep pure lines pure. Simple!!


And because the herp fairy, has completely outlawed dishonesty, we will all live happily ever after.........................

cant believe we got another twitching mutt thread


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 5, 2012)

Cockney_Red said:


> And because the herp fairy, has completely outlawed dishonesty, we will all live happily ever after.........................
> 
> cant believe we got another twitching mutt thread



Like I said before, if you can't trust a breeder then don't buy of them, its your choice


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## Dippy (Feb 5, 2012)

I personally don't like the idea of Hybridizing our scaley obsessions, but I can understand the idea. Some of the Hybrids I have seen are absolutely gorgeous although most probably bred for profit rather than the enjoyment of the hobby itself. I dont think anyone will ever be able to say wether this is right or wrong, but I believe our herp lines should be kept pure.


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## thepythonguy (Feb 5, 2012)

I think some of the hybrids have potential for design was. I don't believe in inbreeding to make jags My thoughts on that is we don't do it in people because it genetically deforms us so why do it with a snake?


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## Cockney_Red (Feb 5, 2012)

same old circles


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## kr0nick (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't like the fact of breeding something that rarely happens in nature. So I am against Jags of any species.
Can't say they don't look good.


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## FusionMorelia (Feb 5, 2012)

oh jesus this again, 
look some people like it some dont and it will ALWAYS be like that as humans we are gifted with an OPINION and everyone's is different it will never ever be 100% for it or 100 against why start another thread to cause an argument?


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## Cockney_Red (Feb 5, 2012)

N.A.T.O said:


> oh jesus this again,
> look some people like it some dont and it will ALWAYS be like that as humans we are gifted with an OPINION and everyone's is different it will never ever be 100% for it or 100 against why start another thread to cause an argument?


Its a Troll thing!....


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## thepythonguy (Feb 5, 2012)

you could easily just ignore the thread and move on just saying thought this thread was on opinion's
you've made your opinion now move on that simple


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## wokka (Feb 5, 2012)

If you want to breed snakes then you are better off breeding what people want than what they dont want, or you'll end up stuck with a lot of mouths to feed. Jags seem to be selling for 3 to 4 times what plain Morelia sell for which suggests there is a higher demand for Jags than plain Morelia.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 5, 2012)

Integrity of some of the larger breeders ??? Jason...
Love this comment ...


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## Red-Ink (Feb 5, 2012)

What are we defininh as hybrids?

Full inter-species breeding?

Sub-species interbreeding?

Both?


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## Ramsayi (Feb 5, 2012)

Jason said:


> You're missing the point of the poll. read the question and answer again... is it now more accepted then before? i.e. have you changed you view on the situation. this wasn't started as another for or against thread that a bunch of people just talk crap. We have plenty of them on here! It was aimed at a specific question. IMO it seems many have jumped ship and no longer appose it. Has your view on hybrids changed? peoples views use to be very passionately apposed to hybrids etc but it seems that some of those same people have changed views on the topic. Why?



Lots of people know my opinion of the topic and it has not changed one bit over the years.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 5, 2012)

AndrewHenderson said:


> I don't, they're ****e and will never like cross breeds.





Thats a shame .

What about all the so called pure breeds of domestic dogs and cats ?

What many people totally fail to understand is that our domestic dog breeds are all the one species .
Moulded by polygenic traits creating different sizies and colours and traits basic mostly on polygenic traits.
But then if a labrador is bred to a poodle . This would be called a hybrid mongrol ??
But how ?? when they are all the same species ???

The same can be said for carpet pythons ... with the exception of Bredli and Imbarata .....


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## graffix (Feb 5, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> But then if a labrador is bred to a poodle . This would be called a hybrid mongrol ??
> But how ?? when they are all the same species ???



Nope, it's a laboodle, fancy name for a heinz "mut", but just look at the prices they actually bring.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with the actual question asked ............. or does it.

Personally I believe hybridisation has it's place, it's not for everyone, nor should it be. Pairing Morelia A with Morelia B just because you have them has no real benefit. As wrightpython said (i believe it was, Im too lazy to scroll back) it is a valid way to introduce morphs into new lines. IF these progeny are to be passed on IMO it should be made clear they are hybridised.


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native. 
My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 5, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Thats a shame .
> 
> What about all the so called pure breeds of domestic dogs and cats ?
> 
> ...



Have you got any peer reviewed literature that confirms all carpets are the same species with those couple of exceptions?
I wrote a reply a few years back that got me an infraction but it went along the lines of monkeys and humans share 98% of the same dna so going by that logic some people would have no problems breeding with a chimp.I also added that this so called paper was written by a biology student and was never peer reviewed,I'm also not sure it was ever published.


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## geckoman1985 (Feb 5, 2012)

i think its ok for hyrids as long as it is knowen to the buyer and that the seller tells them its a crossbreed . i personaly would not buy hyrids as i prefer puer bloodlines


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## junglepython2 (Feb 5, 2012)

Hydrids are here to stay, but that doesn't change my opinon of them. I know plenty will disagree with this but with all the lies and dishonesty that surrounded there release into the local market as soon as someone dabbles in hybrids or Jags I will never trust there pure lines again.


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## wokka (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
> Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native.
> My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.


My observation is that gtp buyers are chasing "pretty" animals rather than a particular locality. Pretty and cheap, that's what they want!


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## Kurto (Feb 5, 2012)

i'd just like to raise one simple point...

All of these so called morelia "hybrids" (which is the completely wrong term) share the same DNA. Go figure...

It's just land bridges that separate different localities.. And even Morelia s harisoni which is separated by a large body of water has the same DNA.

How can you hybrid the same species to the same species?


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## junglepython2 (Feb 5, 2012)

Kurto said:


> i'd just like to raise one simple point...
> 
> All of these so called morelia "hybrids" (which is the completely wrong term) share the same DNA. Go figure...
> 
> ...



Read post 38.


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

wokka said:


> My observation is that gtp buyers are chasing "pretty" animals rather than a particular locality. Pretty and cheap, that's what they want!



I don't dispute that wokka and I have no problem with it. I just think there should be breeders specialising in pure lines, that's not to say they can't breed morphs as well. What I don't like is people sacrificing pure-line stock to make a quick buck. Also, for the life of me, I can't see how a native GTP x whatever would improve the "prettiness". Maybe with carpets it's a different matter.


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## Kurto (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
> Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native.
> My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.



GTP's until recently were particularly expensive.. And to top it off, Aussie lines, which where only available from a handful of breeders where even more expensive.. When brought my greens I would have been happy to buy local specimens if they weren't 2.5x the price..

I can see why in Aust everything has been been outcrossed.



junglepython2 said:


> Read post 38.



Um, I did. And it changed my life.. Thanks, my eyes are now open.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
> Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native.
> My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.




Michael. It is a shame alright if people pass off something as pure stock when its not pure ?
But by some peoples logic ? , If you Michael bred from your mixed locality GTP ?

Then your supposed to be muddying the captive bred GTP lines even further ? But these lines have been around long before you owned them etc Its simple to breed and then sell offspring and to be open about what bloodlines are in each offspring.. 
You breed stunning true aussie GTPs and oh what a big drama was made of your first lot of offspring being available ? You were attacked because how could you prove 100% that your stock were pure aussie genetics ? Its usually the same people over and over again posting there negitive comments . 
The only people with the integrity problem are the ones who prefer to keep attacking others over the choice of reptiles that each keeper has a right to keep. These rights are governed by each states fauna guidlines ...

I know if i purchased a pair of pure aussie greens off you Michael. i would not doubt the purity ?
Or if i purchased a pair of mixed bloodline GTP , thats exactly what they would be .

There are people with integrity in our hobby ...
But there are also those who are out to make a fast buck like you said etc
Thats a shame ...


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## zulu (Feb 5, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Integrity of some of the larger breeders ??? Jason...
> Love this comment ...



Why you dont trust them LOL


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

Roger, I breed both now, natives and non-natives. The natives for their purity and my interests in their ecology and the mongrels (pardon me the expression, I think it's a cute name) for money (hopefully). I am not ashamed to say that openly.
Anyway, to keep on the subject, in my opinion the wider acceptance of hybrids is influenced by new people entering the hobby. Many of them don't care because many of them are not interested in anything else but to have a pet snake and of course the nicer, weirder, unusual it is, the better.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 5, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> Have you got any peer reviewed literature that confirms all carpets are the same species with those couple of exceptions?
> I wrote a reply a few years back that got me an infraction but it went along the lines of monkeys and humans share 98% of the same dna so going by that logic some people would have no problems breeding with a chimp.I also added that this so called paper was written by a biology student and was never peer reviewed,I'm also not sure it was ever published.



So your saying that genetics paper is not correct . Do you have proof the paper is floored science ?
AS far as i know the whole thing was done at Adelaide university ? Under the guidence of a PHD ?


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## Ramsayi (Feb 5, 2012)

Jungle_Freak said:


> So your saying that genetics paper is not correct . Do you have proof the paper is floored science ?
> AS far as i know the whole thing was done at Adelaide university ? Under the guidence of a PHD ?



I'm saying I don't know what the paper says and even if it was published/peer reviewed and am asking if anyone has it and has actually read it.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Roger, I breed both now, natives and non-natives. The natives for their purity and my interests in their ecology and the mongrels (pardon me the expression, I think it's a cute name) for money (hopefully). I am not ashamed to say that openly.
> Anyway, to keep on the subject, in my opinion the wider acceptance of hybrids is influenced by new people entering the hobby. Many of them don't care because many of them are not interested in anything else but to have a pet snake and of course the nicer, weirder, unusual it is, the better.



Yes Michael i agree .
But its like ive always said . 
That herpetology and herperculturists have very different ethics . Thats great if you ask me .
But what i dont like is others constantly attacking peoples choices in the hobby. etc
We have minds of our own to pick and choose etc.
I respect others choices..
And heaven forbid if a person changes their mind on a issue lol

Each to their own etc ..


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> I'm saying I don't know what the paper says and even if it was published/peer reviewed and am asking if anyone has it and has actually read it.




I haven't read it, but was told by the author's colleagues that it's a solid piece of work. The researcher was a PhD student supervised by Steve Donnellan. He didn't finish / submit his theses because he got a job offer he couldn't refuse. I hope the paper will see the light of the day one day.


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2012)

Kurto
Some localities have reptiles that are very different looking creatures (as we all very well know).
So therefore DNA cannot be identical to some degree, simple, or am I missing something?


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## Ramsayi (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> I haven't read it, but was told by the author's colleagues that it's a solid piece of work. The researcher was a PhD student supervised by Steve Donnellan. He didn't finish / submit his theses because he got a job offer he couldn't refuse. I hope the paper will see the light of the day one day.



It may very well be a solid piece of work,it may also be flawed and that is the point I am trying to make.


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## Jungle_Freak (Feb 5, 2012)

Did anyone ever wonder why know 2 carpet pythons are exactly the same colour or pattern ?
Its because their colour and patterns are polygenic . These patterns and colours are moulded my nature to be survival traits within each habitat.
Max and min size are also polygenic traits and so are clutch sizes etc.
Just because a carpet python has a different pattern or colour or max size does not means the every single carpet is genetically different to its parent or siblings ? or does it ? 
The difference is only skin deep .... ie patterns and colour phase variations for their current habitat. 
Polygenic genetics gives the carpet python the best chance of survival in the wild.

Look at the wolf. 
A single species that has been domesticated and moulded by human beings for our own benifit ?
From poodles to great danes.
Totally different in looks and size IE = POLYGENIC TRAITS etc ,,, but are still the same species ?

If you understand the nature polygenic triats and their influence on the animals that have these genes .
You would understand that these changes are on the exterior of a species mostly as survival traits ? 
And not so much on the species DNA level .


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## PilbaraPythons (Feb 5, 2012)

Okay lets for one second put the DNA senario a side. If there are polygenenic inheritable differeneces why would anyone what to polute that in captivity, because they can?, because they see it as their right?. Thats not how I would like the hobby going, thats for sure.


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## ramzee86 (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know how people can disagree that Carpet Pythons are pretty much all the same..
Ever see natural Diamond Coastal integrades - you can't tell which one it really is.... or natural Coastal Jungle integrades - Can't rally tell what it is?
On the east coast it slowly transforms from diamond to coastal to jungle.... from black (diamonds)to black & Brown (Coastals) to Black and Yellow (Jungles) and then B&W ('Jullaten' jungles)

I don't know just my theory


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

PO's last sentence: "BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?"

May I extend the question: Do any ethics still exist in this hobby (they do in herpetology)? Are we now openly supporting unethical, unnatural modification of what once used to be a beautiful, and fit (in Darwinian terms) wildlife?


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## wokka (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> PO's last sentence: "BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?"
> 
> May I extend the question: Do any ethics still exist in this hobby (they do in herpetology)? Are we now openly supporting unethical, unnatural modification of what once used to be a beautiful, and fit (in Darwinian terms) wildlife?


What do you mean by unethical, unnatural modification?


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 5, 2012)

Do many fish or bird breeders have a strong opinion on this subject as well?


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

wokka said:


> What do you mean by unethical, unnatural modification?



I though those words are plain and clear. It's not a criticism wokka, just a little bit of philosophical pondering. 
If there are no ethics within the hobby, so be it, I just wonder how would the cross-breeders and morphers feel being interviewed by someone like David Attenborough asking: "do you respect wild animals?" :shock:


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## wokka (Feb 5, 2012)

So is selective breeding unethical, or accelerating a natural process? What was natural, changes as locality barriers break down. eg SOFAR runs frog rescue in Newcastle. I believe pretty well any type of frog turns up via accidental transport in fruit boxes and the like. Is transport now part of our current environment and so the crossing of of various types of frogs which previously were seperated by 1000s of miles occurs "naturally" or at least unplanned..


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

How can you call transport and accidental relocation a natural process? 

When I questioned the ethics, I was thinking more about the consequences of cross breeding and morphing, in particular the unethical act of selling / passing on something that is not what the buyer is told it is. But it really starts at the cross breeding / morphing point, doesn't it? If there were no drugs, there would be no junkies.


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## Boidae (Feb 5, 2012)

I dislike hybrids, well most morphs or colour mutations for that matter. 
I never will like them, give me an Olive or a Bredls anyday...
I find a lot of them to be a bit artifical in a sense. 

But in the grand scheme of things, if creating morphs like these brings more new people into the hobby 
(hopefully not too many with only $$$ on their minds..) then I guess that's a positive.. 

I'm certainly not very fond of Jags (well.. breeders anyway). 
As far as I know, most Jags will have moderate to severe neuro issues. 
In my opinion, putting a snakes quality of life second after making sure it has 'pretty colours' is wrong..


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## cement (Feb 5, 2012)

Here is one true example, a couple of friends of mine bought a python each off a seller, who was vague about what it was.
At the time my friends weren't that cluey on the whole hobby snake scene and thought they were buying coastals. He trusted that he was buying a coastal and so bought it. he is now more informed as he is continuing to work and study wild herps. he brought it to me to ID, but I couldn't, it was definatly cross and probably MD x Coastal but I could only say that I have no idea, and had to keep correcting him when he would call it something. After a while it got to him and he sold it, not wanting to be associated with them.

The crossing of subspecies and the jag thing will never sit well with me. I have definatly not jumped ship, only become to a degree, tolerant. But I am not in the hobby ''Business" where an individuals ethics are challenged, and justifications are sought from the click.


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 5, 2012)

I will never jump ship. To me, it's a reminder of what we humans do to everything we touch (being a bit melodramatic). Personally, the evolution and biology of a particular species is what does it for me, I don't want the latest candy coloured morph mongrel on the market just to say I have one. It's like keeping up with the Jones's, snakes have become the latest new must have product and no one gives a bugger about anything "real", which is not why I got into herps in the first place.


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## TurtleDan (Feb 5, 2012)

In response to Geckoman, 

The situation in birds is even worse! "lutino (producing a yellow bird) alexandrine parrots" are a short term result of crossing lutino indian ringnecks with alexandrines and then crossing back to alexandrines but then sometimes at 15/16 breeders will chuck a lutino ringneck back in the mix. The resulting birds do not look like alexandrines and all of the 1/2 and 1/4 birds are worthless awkward looking animals.

The situation with lorikeets is worse again. Now instead of just breeding trichoglossus species with each other to get mutations in other species, scaly breasted(trichoglossus sp.) lorikeets are being crossed with musk lorikeets (glossopsitta sp.) to move the lutino mutation into them, and lutino rainbow lorikeets (trichoglossus sp.) (already impure from hybridising with scaly breasted lorikeets) are hybridised with the foreign red lory (eos sp.) to move lutino into this species, not held in great numbers in australian aviculture. Then you find ads for lutino red lories that read; 

This lutino red lory has been produced by hybridising but was NOT bred by the breeding of a red lory to a lutino trichoglossus/one of its parents is NOT a lutino trichoglossus. (so what was it bred with??)

I am personally opposed to hybrids, i love my beautiful snakes and beautiful turtles just as nature made them. I do acknowledge a difference however between deliberate hybridisation and where hybridisation has occured earlier in a line by misidentification or where two subspecies were once not recognised.

just my two bob and i hope we dont end up with a market flooded with homogenised "australian pythons" for sale


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

cement said:


> Here is one true example, a couple of friends of mine bought a python each off a seller, who *was vague* about what it was.



I like that.  ...... was he the breeder or "on-seller"? This is a classical example of how things can go innocently wrong. 
I could also give some examples in the "GTP field of deception" where someone buys juveniles from another breeder (cheap of course) and then sells them as his own. It's going on right now. That's the kind of ethics .... or rather lack of, I was on about.


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## FusionMorelia (Feb 5, 2012)

imo 
if you go and buy an animal and do almost zero research ask few questions and deal with someone you know zero about your taking a massive risk and if you get a dodgie animal its not every ones fault cause its a mix or ill or coverd in mites etc its your own fault for not doing the work, you wouldnt buy a car or phone or a dog with such a blasé attitude and if you did would you blame all care yards/phone sales men etc etc? i highly doubt it.


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## PythonLegs (Feb 5, 2012)

I think the majority of breeders selling cross breeds as pure are simply ignorant of the core discussion here, rather than actively being deceitful, if that makes sense. But as the hobby is growing exponentially, the numbers of scumbags selling crossbred rubbish will skyrocket as more and more people take up breeding to make a quick buck- why spend thousands getting two quality chondros, when a coastalxchondro will sell just as easily for almost as much?

Interesting that the most vocal in support of hybrids have a vested interest in them.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 5, 2012)

TurtleDan said:


> In response to Geckoman,
> 
> The situation in birds is even worse! "lutino (producing a yellow bird) alexandrine parrots" are a short term result of crossing lutino indian ringnecks with alexandrines and then crossing back to alexandrines but then sometimes at 15/16 breeders will chuck a lutino ringneck back in the mix. The resulting birds do not look like alexandrines and all of the 1/2 and 1/4 birds are worthless awkward looking animals.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that but it doesn't really answer my question, do many other bird keepers share your view?


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## cement (Feb 5, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> I like that.  ...... was he the breeder or "on-seller"? This is a classical example of how things can go innocently wrong.
> I could also give some examples in the "GTP field of deception" where someone buys juveniles from another breeder (cheap of course) and then sells them as his own. It's going on right now. That's the kind of ethics .... or rather lack of, I was on about.



I am not 100% sure, but I think the breeder. It was a juvie.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 5, 2012)

PythonLegs said:


> I think the majority of breeders selling cross breeds as pure are simply ignorant of the core discussion here, rather than actively being deceitful, if that makes sense. But as the hobby is growing exponentially, the numbers of scumbags selling crossbred rubbish will skyrocket as more and more people take up breeding to make a quick buck- why spend thousands getting two quality chondros, when a coastalxchondro will sell just as easily for almost as much?
> 
> Interesting that the most vocal in support of hybrids have a vested interest in them.




I think calling them scumbags is a bit strong, sure many people don't like what they are are doing, but it seems the majority either don't care or support them.
Sure there are scumbags breeding Jags etc, but there are people just as bad selling/breeding pure lines as well.
I know hard working and honest people who breed Jags, they do not deserve to be labelled scumbags imo.


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## cement (Feb 5, 2012)

N.A.T.O said:


> imo
> if you go and buy an animal and do almost zero research ask few questions and deal with someone you know zero about your taking a massive risk and if you get a dodgie animal its not every ones fault cause its a mix or ill or coverd in mites etc its your own fault for not doing the work, you wouldnt buy a car or phone or a dog with such a blasé attitude and if you did would you blame all care yards/phone sales men etc etc? i highly doubt it.



Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You probably were born wise to the ways of the world, so it obviously doesn't apply to you, my friend.


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## JungleManSam (Feb 5, 2012)

My auntie in law drives a Hybrid. I can finally speak out and not be criticized. Im not gay either.


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## Vincey (Feb 5, 2012)

JungleManSam said:


> My auntie in law drives a Hybrid. I can finally speak out and not be criticized. Im not gay either.


bout time someone lightened the mood a little bit, lol

as for hybrids etc;

Each to their own, there will always be people interested in pure lines and always people interested in getting hybrids.
I see so many people on both sides of the fence being hypocrites and argumentative morons. 

Life goes on.


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## wokka (Feb 5, 2012)

PythonLegs said:


> Interesting that the most vocal in support of hybrids have a vested interest in them.


Equally those who dont support them dont have them.
That is logical as it only demonstrates their accepance or lack there of.


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

Vincey said:


> bout time someone lightened the mood a little bit, lol
> 
> as for hybrids etc;
> 
> ...



So, how did your post contribute to the discussion? I don't read any moronic arguments here - do you?


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## FusionMorelia (Feb 5, 2012)

cement said:


> Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You probably were born wise to the ways of the world, so it obviously doesn't apply to you, my friend.


born wise lol its called common sense pal everyone is born with it.


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

N.A.T.O said:


> born wise lol its called common sense pal *everyone is born with it.*



:lol: That sound very naive, I am afraid I have to disagree. Lol, LOl, lol Or is it one of those recessive traits that can be lost through a short-term evolution (like a puberty)?


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## [email protected] (Feb 5, 2012)

i prefer the way they have evolved in there natural habitat. i like there natural look and surroundings . im fascinated by it.


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## pythrulz (Feb 5, 2012)

Some do but most do not Jags and hybrids are not pure bred snakes that Is just creating mongrel snakes


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

pythrulz said:


> Some do but most do not Jags and hybrids will are not pure bred snakes that Is just creating mongrels snakes




Clear as a bell. Thank you, that really puts the issue into a new light.


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## Camo (Feb 5, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> Do many fish or bird breeders have a strong opinion on this subject as well?


Having been a large fish/cichlid breeder i can say that if there is ever a discussion on crossing different species of fish in a community it is highly critised. It is not often done in the open market due to thier being no market for them and also thier being no genetic need. However as with everything there is always an underground market of either illegal or not sort after animals being produced.

The bird scene is another story. As per stated the lutino alex can takes years to get it to where the breeder may be happy with the outcome and that outcome may of seen heaps of offspring disposed of. To what point is the done. The outcome is a much smaller yellow bird which could of been achieved with a pure line.

Cameron


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

I need a drink.


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## D3pro (Feb 5, 2012)




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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

Make it a double!


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## Wrightpython (Feb 5, 2012)

At the end of the day when you are looking for a purchase you know what you want and you know what they look like in nature. If when purchasing you think somethings different than wild colourations ask if its crossbred. Ive seen a lot of photos of pure animals and if you tried to flogg me a cross id know, if the animal is weirdly priced for species named then you know somethings up Buyer beware and check and double check breeder before purchasing. i will never have this problem as i give my snakes away for free so if someone doesnt like my animal i will gladly take it back and give them there money back $0


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## Camo (Feb 5, 2012)

Wrightpython said:


> At the end of the day when you are looking for a purchase you know what you want and you know what they look like in nature. If when purchasing you think somethings different than wild colourations ask if its crossbred.


So just because its colouration may be different to that of a wild type specimen means you need to ask the question about its purity?


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## crocodile_dan (Feb 5, 2012)

This hobby is primarily focused on the visual appeal of animals be it "pure" or "mixed" at the end of the day the prettier animals sell quicker or for the higher price. Even with locale specific lines there is selection for certain traits, the majority of which are colouration. So are locale specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts, and will they be that way over multiple future generations? Joe Blog who throws a pair together which are the same species (subspecies) just for the 'fun of it' would get blasted by nearly everyone in the hobby for multiple obvious reasons, but it could be argued that the offspring are more representative of the species as they result with an absence from selective pressure from the hobby.

You don't have to search far to find multiple opinions on how "removed" our captive reptiles are from the wild (native fauna), so what relevance do "pure" animals have outside of the label... they have (arguably) no conservation value.

Personally I bought a pair of snakes with the information they were a certain region and from a big name breeder, but I have never seen another of the same species with his name being mentioned. I have questioned the integrity of this pair and am now hesitant to maintain any association of this pair to the claimed breeder. How can most people be without question certain of their animals when it is far too easy for information to be "lost in translation"?

And so people are aware I am a fence sitter for now on this debate  and I'm not attacking pure lines as it might seem.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 5, 2012)

Camo said:


> Having been a large fish/cichlid breeder i can say that if there is ever a discussion on crossing different species of fish in a community it is highly critised. It is not often done in the open market due to thier being no market for them and also thier being no genetic need. However as with everything there is always an underground market of either illegal or not sort after animals being produced.
> 
> The bird scene is another story. As per stated the lutino alex can takes years to get it to where the breeder may be happy with the outcome and that outcome may of seen heaps of offspring disposed of. To what point is the done. The outcome is a much smaller yellow bird which could of been achieved with a pure line.
> 
> Cameron



I thought there was a good market for hybridised Cichlids, I see them in many pet shops


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 5, 2012)

crocodile_dan said:


> This hobby is primarily focused on the visual appeal of animals be it "pure" or "mixed" at the end of the day the prettier animals sell quicker or for the higher price. Even with locale specific lines there is selection for certain traits, the majority of which are colouration. So are locale specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts, and will they be that way over multiple future generations?




Speak for yourself re the primary focus, I know of a few, most of whom have been in the hobby alot of years who would beg to differ.

"are local specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts" Years ago, I would have said "yes", but It's getting harder to tell these days, that's part of the problem, for me, at least. 

I'm lucky as there's nowhere near as much "milkshaking" with the species I keep (Lacies and Top End Mulgas).


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 5, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> Speak for yourself re the primary focus, I know of a few, most of whom have been in the hobby alot of years who would beg to differ.
> 
> "are local specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts" Years ago, I would have said "yes", but It's getting harder to tell these days, that's part of the problem, for me, at least.
> 
> I'm lucky as there's nowhere near as much "milkshaking" with the species I keep (Lacies and Top End Mulgas).



Majority of the people in this hobby are newcomers (keeping herps 5 years or less) and imo looks are the primary drawing point of that crowd


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Feb 5, 2012)

I own a few here, Mongrel Jags that is. I really like them, thier vibrant colour is magnificent & the few that i have are a real pleasure to own & look after. The nuero think was done to death way over the top & until people really have the experience with them to see what they are really like, then the question of wether or not you tollerate them in the hobby is probably comming directly from the heart or emotions.
No arguements here as there will allways be fors & againsts, but they are here to stay as that is what the pet trade is allways after which is something different. Just like the cats,dogs,birds & fish etc. & remember it is the pet trade we are talking about here, not some conservation release program.

Now don't get me wrong I also like purebred animals & have many myself. 
But the responsible thing is that when they are bred/sold given away or whatever they should carry the apropriate label.
If in doudt or don't like then don't buy.

Cheers
Ian


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 5, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> Majority of the people in this hobby are newcomers (keeping herps 5 years or less) and imo looks are the primary drawing point of that crowd



I would have to agree, the majority are into something that looks good, is "new" and no one else has (a bit like a new pair of designer shoes).


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## Jason (Feb 5, 2012)

It seems creating hybrids is black magic. It's ok as long as money can be made and the animals are pretty? So because we can easily make hybrids, sell hybrids and make a buck from hybrids, does that mean it's OK? Has that made it more Acceptable?

I think one of the issues the hybrid likers are maybe over looking is that while purists don't 'pollute' their blood lines, they do potentially pollute purist's. I will say the same thing again: There are several breeders selling 'coastal jags' that are only 75% coastal blood, these will be breed to coastals and 88% coastal sibs will be sold as coastals by others. I'm sure even some of the 75% coastal sibs are being sold a coastal sibs (hence will be passed off as just coastals). Nice examples of these will find there way into purists stock. So I'm not having a shot at designer animals, they are appealing to eye. But they are starting to create a cloud of judgment over those breeding them... I don't really trust many of those people breeding jags anymore. They themselves have been confused, I'm sure some in this thread supporting jags can relate to this.
While there is room for purists and hybridizers, the hybridizers are going to effect the purists while the purists wont bother the hybridizers. Think about that when you carry on about the rants purists have!



Waterrat said:


> PO's last sentence: "BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?"
> 
> May I extend the question: Do any ethics still exist in this hobby (they do in herpetology)? Are we now openly supporting unethical, unnatural modification of what once used to be a beautiful, and fit (in Darwinian terms) wildlife?



It seems ethics are slipping at an increasing rate. The black magic wins out 



Waterrat said:


> How can you call transport and accidental relocation a natural process?
> 
> When I questioned the ethics, I was thinking more about the consequences of cross breeding and morphing, in particular the unethical act of selling / passing on something that is not what the buyer is told it is. But it really starts at the cross breeding / morphing point, doesn't it? If there were no drugs, there would be no junkies.



Exactly... Room for both but the problem with purity is a problem because of increased hybridizing for dollars and colors

DO PEOPLE THINK THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HYBRIDS HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE *ACCEPTABLE*?


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## Retic (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes



Jason said:


> DO PEOPLE THINK THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HYBRIDS HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE *ACCEPTABLE*?


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

Jason said:


> DO PEOPLE THINK THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HYBRIDS HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE *ACCEPTABLE*?



They have became more acceptable by those who don't know much about them and those who couldn't care less. And of course it's cherished by those who flog them as something they're not.


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## crocodile_dan (Feb 5, 2012)

imported_Varanus: 
my post was directed at the generalized reptile keeping hobby, and I did not dismiss the motives of many (not only older) keepers I believe they are just not as well represented in the hobby today. Every thread detailing "Show us your..." is filled with the most visually appealing individuals of that species, which I would suggest and base my opinion of the major motivating factor for the general hobbyist.

your point on it's getting harder to tell these days about locales is what I was trying to allude to that even without 'milkshaking' we are creating a selective pressure on the colour traits of the locale specific animals.

I realize most will disagree with me but that was a factor I thought had not been addressed in these discussions. As I said I'm not trying to taint the views about pure lines, I am actually in favour of specific locales but I can see some selective pressure amongst various animals.


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## ozziepythons (Feb 5, 2012)

Jason said:


> I just love the fact that so many people that support the making these 'Morelia milkshakes' use to openly appose hybrids. I like the look of a good looking jag but after only a few years I have no trust in the 'Morelia market'. I'm already doubting purity from some of the 'big breeders'... said really.
> Already I see some people selling 'coastal jags' that aren't pure coastal, some have atleast 25% murray darling. The prob is that some guys will breed these to coastals and sell sibs as coastals when in fact they aren't pure. You'd have to be a complete ignorant clown to say this isn't and wont continue to happen. BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?



I'm skipping over every post between the original opening for the thread and my response. I have a feeling I know where you got the idea for this thread, and yes there is one big breeder in particular whom for years has had the reputation for cross breeding for the excitement of seeing what is produced. They have only just now let slip with admitting certain available bloodlines for sale as "coastal jags" are 25% MD. 
There is a difference to be noted amongst reptile keepers here. Some are disconnected from the animal they keep and its natural history, seemingly only after something 'pretty' and yet interesting as a pet. Others are well aware of the locale of their reptiles, the environment it represents, its taxonomy, ecological niche, I could go on. This is not a judgement but an observation only. There are a lot of keepers however, whom keep many reptiles, work with them in the field and have both genetically pure and muddied bloodlines at home. The purist will always be selective with what they buy and where, the unperturbed reptile keeper will have far more options open to them. Yes, I think we are more accepting of hybridisation now only for the fact that either good or bad, it is a reality we have to live with.


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## Jason (Feb 5, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> I would have to agree, the majority are into something that looks good, is "new" and no one else has (a bit like a new pair of designer shoes).



So that makes it more acceptable? breeding colorful critters for newbies justifies the process? 
Purists are really starting to question purity, doesn't that bother the hybridizers? Or is it not their problem? 
So far I've seen in this thread those who support hybrids argue that: the newbs like them, they're colorful/attractive, they sell for good dollars hence people want them. Are these the reasons why it's more acceptable now? Do hybridizers believe that these reasons (and I'm sure others) make it morally acceptable to slowly pollute pure stocks. IMO it is ignorant to think that a massive increase in hybrids wont pollute 'pure animals', even if just a bit.


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## Cockney_Red (Feb 5, 2012)

imported_Varanus said:


> I will never jump ship. To me, it's a reminder of what we humans do to everything we touch (being a bit melodramatic). Personally, the evolution and biology of a particular species is what does it for me, I don't want the latest candy coloured morph mongrel on the market just to say I have one. It's like keeping up with the Jones's, snakes have become the latest new must have product and no one gives a bugger about anything "real", which is not why I got into herps in the first place.


Sum up! for me, the limit should always be "Line Breeding" In sub species of Morelia....


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## trento (Feb 5, 2012)

And this is why i will only buy and breed my locality specific reptiles one day you wont be able to buy em because the rest will all be mix breeds and locality captive breeds will be highly sort after like in the US we need a pedigree system to be able to keep track of pure lines at least you could keep track of whats what


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## nervous (Feb 5, 2012)

trento said:


> And this is why i will only buy and breed my locality specific reptiles one day you wont be able to buy em because the rest will all be mix breeds and locality captive breeds will be highly sort after like in the US we need a pedigree system to be able to keep track of pure lines at least you could keep track of whats what



and how would you PROVE they are PURE???


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Feb 5, 2012)

Jason said:


> So that makes it more acceptable? breeding colorful critters for newbies justifies the process?
> Purists are really starting to question purity, doesn't that bother the hybridizers? Or is it not their problem?
> So far I've seen in this thread those who support hybrids argue that: the newbs like them, they're colorful/attractive, they sell for good dollars hence people want them. Are these the reasons why it's more acceptable now? Do hybridizers believe that these reasons (and I'm sure others) make it morally acceptable to slowly pollute pure stocks. IMO it is ignorant to think that a massive increase in hybrids wont pollute 'pure animals', even if just a bit.



Hi Jason,
Mate i am sure that you & many others are right in saying that it has the potential to pollute pure stocks.
If you are a breeder of pure stock & wish to buy such animals, i would have thought you would source from reputable pure stockists/breeders.
I went through a lot of this when breeding birds for a hobby & nothing has changed.
Let us face it that by now the pet trade has that many diverse/inbred animals for sale to someone that just wants a pet, that you won't stop it. It is a fact that humans will want something different because we have made it that way & possible for people to do so. NOT saying it is right.
If you want a pure breed then you go to someone who has the purebreed & not a mongrel.

Cheers
Ian


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## Waterrat (Feb 5, 2012)

Slightly off the topic.
In another thread we discussed the decline in genetic fitness in salamanders. Scientific evidence suggests that the species have been captive bred since the 1800eds and metamorphoses are mostly fatal. That is a very short and inefficient version, I know.

Think what you like, inbreeding will show some adverse signs sooner or later, and guess which "type" of snakes will suffer from genetic collapse first. What will happen then? Will the wildlife authorities say enough is enough and close us down or will they wash their hands and proclaim captive reptiles as "pets" and stop regulating? Or will there be a division within the hobby where pet keepers, designer breeders, pure line breeders and herpetologists will close ranks and distance themselves from each other? These are hypothetical questions and there is no need to speculate but one thing is for sure - nothing ever stays the same, something will give in and changes will follow.

The majority of new people entering this hobby are people with no other interest than to have a pet to love and care for (not a bad thing at all BTW). Because these people come mainly from urban / city areas, they have little opportunity (and often no interest) to learn about reptilian biology and ecology. Because of that, they are unlikely to develop any interest beyond the pet keeping. This will swing the "hobby" in certain direction ..... which is already happening. I am not criticizing that class of reptile keepers but their unwillingness or lack of interest and also in many cases the lack of opportunity, will drag down those willing to expand their knowledge and contribute to the course. I am predicting some interesting times ahead of us but it will take a while to happen.



nervous said:


> and how would you PROVE they are PURE???



Oh no! I though your type went extinct years ago.


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 5, 2012)

crocodile_dan said:


> imported_Varanus:
> 
> your point on it's getting harder to tell these days about locales is what I was trying to allude to that even without 'milkshaking' we are creating a selective pressure on the colour traits of the locale specific animals.


I also agree with what your saying, but I feel there's a big difference between "line breeding" for colour and milkshaking, at least for me! A line bred Lacie is still a Lacie whereas a Lacie x Komodo is on another plain altogether.


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## nervous (Feb 5, 2012)

> Oh no! I though your type went extinct years ago.



Meaning what? he mentioned making up a pedigree so we can keep track of the pures... how can anyone prove they have a pure form? if its as simple as saying hey look i have a snake that looks pure i want it on the pedigree... then anyone with a hybrid(sorry, cross, not hybrid) that looks pure could get on that pedigree also.

so i dont see the point in your smart-*** statement...!


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Feb 5, 2012)

The original question was, do you think that more people are accepting of hybrids.
As time goes on I think yes.
At the same time there is a very clear passage for mistaken identity, this is clear. How to fix, buggered if i know?

It is just like if i wanted a pure native GTP, where would i go?
I would first go to Michael as he claims to have pure lines, but at the same time i believe that he has other lines as well.
Correct me if i am wrong michael. BUT at least as wanting pure lines i should be able to see from the snake that Michael sold me a pure line before i breed it. Should i not? & if not then i won't breed with it if i want pure lines.

Cheers
Ian


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## trento (Feb 5, 2012)

start foundation lines eg from breaders like j.montgomery p krass b barnett c hays b walker j weigel just to name a few make these lines from breeders foundation breeds any one who has brought reptiles from people will have this on record on there licence and start from there like with dogs and cat and horses etc



nervous said:


> Meaning what? he mentioned making up a pedigree so we can keep track of the pures... how can anyone prove they have a pure form? if its as simple as saying hey look i have a snake that looks pure i want it on the pedigree... then anyone with a hybrid(sorry, cross, not hybrid) that looks pure could get on that pedigree also.
> 
> so i dont see the point in your smart-*** statement...!



i know guys that started the hobby in australia that went in to the bush and got their own snakes back in the 60s and 70s these guys could be the pedigree foundation breeds


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## congo_python (Feb 5, 2012)

Hahahaha this thread is an interesting look into how people percieve questions asked lol. My opinion is yes people are more accepting of hybrids these days, but they will muddy the waters for the years of breeding to come.

Cheers
Congo


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## PythonLegs (Feb 5, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> I think calling them scumbags is a bit strong, sure many people don't like what they are are doing, but it seems the majority either don't care or support them.
> Sure there are scumbags breeding Jags etc, but there are people just as bad selling/breeding pure lines as well.
> I know hard working and honest people who breed Jags, they do not deserve to be labelled scumbags imo.



I was talking about the scumbags, as in, the dishonest ones, out to rip people off and passing hybrids as pure lines. I am aware there ae many honest sellers. Please try and make sure you comprehend the post before you take offence.



Geckoman said:


> I thought there was a good market for hybridised Cichlids, I see them in many pet shops




Cichlid Hybrids


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## craigryan (Feb 5, 2012)

Nineteen years ago when i got my very first snake, a childrens python, i now belive it was a cross. There were very few animals around up until after the NSW amnesty. Prior to that if you had a childrens and a mac and they bred, they were sold as what they looked like. There were no forums for debate, it was how things were and you were largely unable to acquire animals. Nor did we have the resources we have now. How can anyone be sure what they have now is pure? Did they get them from the wild? Is it more socially acceptable to have cross-breeds? Yes. Opinions change over time. We must now do what we feel is best for the Hobby/industry. Be Honest! Don't sell yourself out for quick $$$. Keep and breed what gives you pleasure. Not for the money. Its already gone.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 6, 2012)

.......


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## abnrmal91 (Feb 6, 2012)

Josh you edit reason says it all. Have people noticed that in the majority of these threads most the posts are from the haters. The people who breed/keep the apparently offensive snake, stay away from the conversation as it always goes the same way. They get abused for doing something different, if someone doesn't like them don't buy one or from someone who keeps/breeds them. It's actually that simple.


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 6, 2012)

Each to their own..........


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## Pythons Rule (Feb 6, 2012)

A jag is purely a hybrid always has been, overseas or here and if that floats ya boat then so be it as long as Australia keeps mainly with the pure lines like so many outside this country envy all of us for then it shouldn't do much damage to our hobby. even though I think jags a stunning creatures I would never keep one or try breed from it as I would rather spend the years it takes to bettering a line or creating a line for myself with a pure species like the Cape York Carpet which is my favourite species. to the question though yes unfortunately in many people’s cases its more acceptable now in Australia’s hobbyists because its a big new mutation that have room to create something new and not with the years of line breeding to worry about, that and the Reduced Patterning and colour that’s been enhanced. I personally will only keep a pure animal I think there stunning and to be able to better the species by purity would be more fulfilling then putting this with that and fingers crossed it may pop out a % of nice looking babies. its a shame most of the big breeders that were once against the whole crossing of species are now all for it and mainly only breed them now. But maybe this is what is needed to allow the rest of us that would like to try breeding something the chance to keep the pure lines going, just a thought.


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## Retic (Feb 6, 2012)

Jags aren't hybrids.


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## junglepython2 (Feb 6, 2012)

boa said:


> Jags aren't hybrids.



That all depends on your definition of hybrids, considering the chances of pure coastal Jags being in the country are buckleys to none.


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## redlittlejim (Feb 6, 2012)

Personally dont want to breed them, but my wife would like because of the colours. each to there own. its to late to be able to start labelling which are pure because of how the market has been flooded and because of all the dishonest people out there selling animals off as pure when there not. maybe if years and years ago they had started a label like (purebred) and that was sold with the paperwork like with dogs today but it wasnt and so its too late. Honestly tho, as far as im concerned its the same with dog breeds, pure breds are always worth the $$$ and are better IMO. but people still want crosses cause they can either save a quick buck or they like the look of a ccross.


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2012)

Dog and cat breeders have a register and a central body who provides, stamps and signs pedigree papers. This will never happen with reptiles with the exception (I hope) of the Oenpelli python. There is a chance, everything else - it's too late.


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## redlittlejim (Feb 6, 2012)

i think you touched on it michael with your thread http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/locality-specific-species-122266/ at least it started to go into the same topic as this has been heading... hopefully you did manage to get your "pures"


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## Retic (Feb 6, 2012)

My comment was in reference to this 'A jag is purely a hybrid always has been, overseas or here' which is obviously inaccurate. 



junglepython2 said:


> That all depends on your definition of hybrids, considering the chances of pure coastal Jags being in the country are buckleys to none.


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## JezJez (Feb 6, 2012)

Personally I'm ok with it & it's the direction the hobby seems to be going in whether people like it or not.. I wonder how people will feel about this topic 10 years from now? Each to their own I say. What happened to the old saying "if you haven't got anything nice to say than don't say anything at all"


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## Magpie (Feb 6, 2012)

Yeah! Can't wait till they breed pythons with legs.


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2012)

That saying is pretty stupid. Important things may not always be nice, still well-worth saying. Agree?


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## Klaery (Feb 6, 2012)

JezJez said:


> What happened to the old saying "if you haven't got anything nice to say than don't say anything at all"



No guilty verdicts? 

Come on debate happens with anything that is worth talking about. My interest in the hobby is headed the way of small monitors, I am trying to get out of everything else. For me they have to be of known locality (or at least possible to trace) or I am not as interested in them. The differing locales as they have evolved in nature are what interest me not bright colours etc.
The vast majority of mine are F1 (and I am working hard to track down those animals history that are not).


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## JezJez (Feb 6, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> That saying is pretty stupid. Important things may not always be nice, still well-worth saying. Agree?



Agreed. I just get sick to death of all the pointless back & fourth bickering over what people like to keep as their pets.


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## Hoplophile (Feb 6, 2012)

They already have legs - vestigial ones on a much reduced pelvic girgle anyway.....



Magpie said:


> Yeah! Can't wait till they breed pythons with legs.


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## redlittlejim (Feb 6, 2012)

Magpie said:


> Yeah! Can't wait till they breed pythons with legs.



they did to lizards that are legless  why not snakes with legs


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## Jason (Feb 6, 2012)

congo_python said:


> Hahahaha this thread is an interesting look into how people percieve questions asked lol. My opinion is yes people are more accepting of hybrids these days, but they will muddy the waters for the years of breeding to come.
> 
> Cheers
> Congo



An interesting look at how so many people can't seem to understand and then answer a simple question I think! 


Those who like hybrids get so defensive about their precious hybrids and argue that it's OK because newbs like them and there's money to be made etc. But they don't want to lower their guard and explain why they believe it is OK and morally acceptable to create a bunch of mixed bloods that will likely damage the hobby for the purists. They just tell them to take precautions... how ignorant! precautions wouldn't have to be taken so strongly if they themselves weren't creating the beast the purists fear.
The thread was started with the question 'is it more acceptable' and even though it seem most have struggled to answer the simple yes or no question with anything but defensive ramble, I think it's safe to say yes it's more acceptable now... BUT WHY do people now believe it's more acceptable given the strong opposition hybrids use to have? Why are they acceptable in your eyes?
We all know why the purists appose them but I just want to hear from those who love them, why should we accept them happily?
Personally money, demand etc doesn't make something acceptable, it just gives greedy people a reason to act irresponsibly. I can go rob banks and art gallery's if I want money and color, but my desire and those of others doesn't make it acceptable... does it?


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2012)

Jason, do you mean "more acceptable" on moral grounds? IMO, morals and ethics are not important components of this hobby. Is that and the lack of code of practice acceptable?


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## Jason (Feb 6, 2012)

Waterrat said:


> Jason, do you mean "more acceptable" on moral grounds? IMO, morals and ethics are not important components of this hobby. Is that and the lack of code of practice acceptable?



Yer I guess so  We know why people do it but why do they believe it is morally acceptable? Or is it that they only do it for the color and money? Should the purists lay down and shut up in response to something that will taint the hobby and is deemed morally wrong by some and possibly even some of those breeding them? I recall some of the OS breeders junping on this forum not to long ago warning that jags and the increase in hybrids they bring them will damage the hobby... Well it's happening so I suppose we should shut up, suck it up and accept it?


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## Waterrat (Feb 6, 2012)

Jason said:


> Well it's happening so I suppose we should shut up, suck it up and accept it?



Not necessarily, take a step back, distance yourself from it and fly your own flag. We are not all in this hobby for the same reason and for the same benefit. 
.... and read my signature (although I don't have any enemies). lol :shock::evil:


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## Smithers (Feb 6, 2012)

I likem  and Yes


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## Jeffa (Feb 6, 2012)

I voted no. Just a thought guys, hybrids can and will dilute the purity of stock and muddy the waters for the hobby, what about the possibility of mudding the waters of wild stock? Corns and other exotics are more and more commonly found dumped and discarded. What if some young hybridiser decided to put a random pair of snakes together hopeing to produce this wow looking snake (and get rich) and ended up with the most ugly unsellable clutch? Would he or she freeze them (should they)? or will this person let go (lets says) 30 snakes in the wild and and let mother nature do there thing? (crossing with locale specic breeds) Gosford Diamonds for example.
Were do we draw the line? Most people down the track want to breed snakes, but now we are opening a gate that may never again be shut?
Just sayin....


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## cement (Feb 6, 2012)

Jeffa said:


> I voted no. Just a thought guys, hybrids can and will dilute the purity of stock and muddy the waters for the hobby, what about the possibility of mudding the waters of wild stock?
> 
> This is really my only worry. I have seen this happening and have caught many an escaped out of area python.
> I have witnessed mating between coastal and diamond in the wild, and removed from the wild a diamond cross jungle that would make the pro crossing group blow their horns and twirl the party batons with amazement. Per capita I have heard that the Central Coast has one of the highest herp keeping populations, and we catch plenty of things that aren't from around here.
> ...


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 6, 2012)

cement said:


> Its a classic tale of greed, grabbing all you can and then bailing out.
> When its like that from the beginning, how can anyone be trusted?



Human nature, you mean?!


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## Jeffa (Feb 6, 2012)




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## FusionMorelia (Feb 6, 2012)

a hybrid/cross/intergrade escaping and a pure escaping is no different, if my darwins or gammons escaped how is it any different than a daimondxbredli or jungle x darwin escaping? no difference all are non native to my area.....


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## Jeffa (Feb 6, 2012)

N.A.T.O said:


> a hybrid/cross/intergrade escaping and a pure escaping is no different, if my darwins or gammons escaped how is it any different than a daimondxbredli or jungle x darwin escaping? no difference all are non native to my area.....



The difference is read my post. Breed ugly mutts, cant sell, release whole clutches, stuff up locales specific snakes. Not talking about the occasional escapee.


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## longqi (Feb 6, 2012)

unable to get on line
so havent read the entire thread

But one of the saddest things internationally is the hundreds of threads asking
What is my xxxxxx snake??
Because of hybrids they simply dont have a clue
Even some that are sold as 'pure' end up being bred and then the question is
'What the hell are these I just bred?"

You need a hybrid expert to answer this one
How many out of each clutch retain the looks of either parent but dont obviously show the hybrid?
Can those then miss a generation and their offspring look like hybrids?

Its a bit like Pandoras Box
Its open now
Too late to try and shut it


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## redlittlejim (Feb 6, 2012)

longqi i was surprised at your absent comments during the early stages of this thread. welcome aboard


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## PythonLegs (Feb 6, 2012)

Magpie said:


> Yeah! Can't wait till they breed pythons with legs.



For a second I thought you said 'Can't wait to breed with python legs'.

Which would make far more sense.


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## Wrightpython (Feb 6, 2012)

Camo said:


> So just because its colouration may be different to that of a wild type specimen means you need to ask the question about its purity?



simple answer YES would you buy a holden commodore with a ferrari badge on it thinking it was a ferrari. Just because someone names it a certain type doesnt mean it is that type and anyone wanting pure lines should sort from reputable seller and know what they look like. and before you yell nothing wrong with holdens if you got a red neck


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## Snake-Supplies (Feb 7, 2012)

I personally don't care what the snake is.
Just what it looks like.


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2012)

JoshuaAtherton said:


> I personally don't care what the snake is.
> Just what it looks like.



And that makes you a true representative of the majority in this hobby.


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## Ramsayi (Feb 7, 2012)

The poll has been consistent throughout the thread with around 60% opposed which might suggest we are not ok with them.


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## CamdeJong (Feb 7, 2012)

graffix said:


> Nope, it's a laboodle



No way, watch Scrubs and Dr Cox will tell you it's a Labradoodle, which apart from being hilarious rolls off the tongue so much more nicely.

Personally I'm ok with hybridising spilota subspecies to the effect that some individuals produced are amazing and unique, but come on - there is no way that everyone will admit what they're really selling and if it becomes a big thing then everybody with two snakes will pair them, irrespective of subspecies. 

I am also ANYTHING but a fan of jags. On first glance they look extraordinary but if you stop and look at the markings they're only a few generations past our current top-shelf RP Jungles, Darwins and Coastals. To me jags are a quick and easy way to skip the line-breeding process and achieve fame because in terms of appearance you can't really go wrong with them. 

And my big question is, is there any way for us to know what they experience when they twitch or spasm or whatever it is they do? How do you know that they're not in absolute agony?


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 7, 2012)

Ramsayi said:


> The poll has been consistent throughout the thread with around 60% opposed which might suggest we are not ok with them.



Its strange though as my poll showed numbers quite different


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## Jeffa (Feb 7, 2012)

Honest question, What would/does happen to the offspring of hybrid snakes if they are unsellable, due to whatever reason? Could someone please shed light on this matter.


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## imported_Varanus (Feb 7, 2012)

The same thing that happens to battery hens when they go off the lay (apologies....probably uncalled for).


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## GeckoJosh (Feb 7, 2012)

Jeffa said:


> Honest question, What would/does happen to the offspring of hybrid snakes if they are unsellable, due to whatever reason? Could someone please shed light on this matter.



The same thing that happens to any other snake


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## Wrightpython (Feb 7, 2012)

Jeffa said:


> Honest question, What would/does happen to the offspring of hybrid snakes if they are unsellable, due to whatever reason? Could someone please shed light on this matter.



Give them away to people who want them but cant afford to buy. younger and eager herps sometimes need a freebie mongrel to help them start collection i know i did when i was 14 and thanks to jim stopford and jeff banks i got a leg up


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## Illusive_Jag (Feb 7, 2012)

*Wheres your badge?*

Some of you guys could start putting laws against humans mixing whites with asians, darker sorts or any other foreigners.

Whats the difference? Few questionable characters getting around but thats perfectly fine.

Snake Racists people. Ha Ha

I personally dont see the joy in crossing Jags to others Jungles, Bredli, MD's or whatever.

No one seems to mind anymore of albinos being crossed with every thing that slithers.

Keep it in the coastal family they come from vast areas and have pretty mixed variety already.


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## JS974 (Feb 7, 2012)

Alright who crossed their albino Darwin with a wombat this is getting ridiculous

White wombats - not your average marsupials


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## Red-Ink (Feb 7, 2012)

Illusive_Jag said:


> Some of you guys could start putting laws against humans mixing whites with asians, darker sorts or any other foreigners.
> 
> Whats the difference? Few questionable characters getting around but thats perfectly fine.
> 
> Snake Racists people. Ha Ha



When did human ethnicity become a sub-species? Guess that would be the difference hey?


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2012)

Subspecies? What is it? I am happy to stick to this definition:

SUBSPECIES: “A population that has been geographically isolated for an unspecified period of time, and that has attracted more attention from researchers than one which has not yet achieved that status”.
A product of vivid imagination and poor science.


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## Illusive_Jag (Feb 7, 2012)

Red-Ink said:


> When did human ethnicity become a sub-species? Guess that would be the difference hey?



Nice come back.

Was merely pointing out mixed races exist on the same soil. As do pythons.


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## Waterrat (Feb 7, 2012)

Illusive_Jag said:


> Nice come back.
> 
> Was merely pointing out mixed races exist on the same soil. As do pythons.



Mate, people are just slightly more mobile that snakes. That makes your theory somewhat redundant.
Snakes are actually less ethnophobic than people. They live in communities consisting of (often) many species. Snakes must be atheists, I am sure they are, they don't declare wars.

My contribution for the day. Take it whichever way you like.

<


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## Jeffa (Feb 7, 2012)

Hey Michael, do you think it would be a little overkill to perhaps have a logo or some sort of badge for pure keepers on their website suggesting you do not condone or keep the breeding of hybrids or jags and only offer pure breeds?
I know it sounds harsh but if you started this say today, in five to 10 years time when pures are uncommon and sought again in this time frame at least the potential buyer may know what they are buying? I agree that your certificate has merit, but what about other snake breeders in the future? Is there a way around the fact that pures will be highly sought in years to come and not some clown selling some mongrel snake calling it pure to get extra dosh as what is happening in the U.S.
Will Pure snakes be taken from the wild in years to come because how uncommon they may be in captivity?
If I offend, I aplologise but I would like to see where our hobby and our future lies with our lack of foresite.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Feb 7, 2012)

Just my 2 bobs worth again for what it is worth.
Just because someone has jags breeding it does not mean that they don't have pure lines breeding as well & keep them seperate. Just because a pure line male mates with a jag female, it does not taint him, only the offspring.
Now that same pure male can cross with a pure female & what is the problem.
It once again comes back to the HONESTY of the breeder as it does in any situation WHATEVER you are buying or breeding.

Now on the jag siblings which do not carry the jag gene, hence the lack of supposed neuro problem, have you seen some of them. They either get sold to other breeders that don't mind the differing type of snake or I guess they go the way of any other unwanted snakes that are bred.
They are a very nice type of carpet.

Now all of this will not settle all you purist & I can acknowledge the concerns, but we are talking about the pet trade & not keeping an original line going for conversation purposes. Those that wish to do so, please do it.
I have both so please don't ridicule me because i breed something different than you like.
I am also working on some different lines of BHPs, so is this not allowed??

Cheers
Ian

ps.
The question was also asked why people want to breed them?
Well I will tell you honestly that I was eluded to them as it was getting harder & harder to sell normal type coastal carpets. But everytime there was something a bit different advertised it went like hot cakes.
So i thought to myself lets look into this & asked many people many questions & decided that it might be the new demand for a different type of pet or breeder snake. Just as it has been for the bird/fish or whatever pet trade over the last 20 to 30 years.
So i decided to jump in & spend the money & see what happens?
I must tell you that there is not a lot of money in breeding snakes, the price paid versus the amount of food plus the housing & time spent looking after them, the only people that will make the money is the person or people that come up with the new breed/colour etc. & on top of that i have not bred any yet & when i do most probably worth bugger all.
But at least i have had the challenge.


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## Illusive_Jag (Feb 7, 2012)

This argument has been going around in circles for the past 2+ years. The stamped pure breeder idea has merit, cause as the newbies come in no doubt it will be an understood rule as to what you prefer.

Waterrat's Comment: Take it whichever way you like certainly clarifies the difference between the pure lines and mixed lines.

Each individual decides what they like and what they dont on there purchase and where they wish to head in the Herp game.


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