# ATTENTION reptile keepers from all states



## vadnappa (Jan 24, 2012)

the vic dse is considering adding some species to the list that victorians are allowed to keep. they require specific numbers kept and the keeper/breeders name and state they live in. if anyone has or knows of anyone who keeps any of the following please let me know. all that is required is the number you have, name and state. if anyone has reservations about supplying these please consider the future opportunities for sales and allowing victorians the chance to keep some of these animals.

Amphibolurus nobbi
Cyclodomorphus michaeli
Diporiphora australis
Diporiphora winnecki
Nephrurus wheeleri
Rankinia diemensis
Varanus baritji
Varanus mitchelli
Varanus glebopalma
Varanus kingorum
Varanus panoptes
Varanus pilbarensis
Varanus primordius


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## Red-Ink (Jan 24, 2012)

Yeah... if you could just help hook us up down south we promise we will take most of your next seasons hatchlings


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 24, 2012)

YAY! More monitors and knob-tails! Although what licence do you need and were'd you get this information? (can't wait to keep some Varanus baritji!)


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## Radar (Jan 24, 2012)

Is there a more central/authenticated body (no offence intended at all mate) we can supply this data to?


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## Red-Ink (Jan 24, 2012)

ScottyHerps said:


> YAY! More monitors and knob-tails! Although what licence do you need and were'd you get this information? (can't wait to keep some Varanus baritji!)



Anything new goes on the advance license


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 24, 2012)

Makes sense. Thanks for letting me know.


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## AndrewHenderson (Jan 24, 2012)

Another state almost allowed to keep WA animals even we can't keep!


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## Pilbarensis (Jan 24, 2012)

It is a bit sad, so many states such as Tasmania and WA are left behind a bit... Hopefully you guys will get a licence update soon though!


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## waruikazi (Jan 24, 2012)

Why doesn't the DSE just contact the relevant authorities in other states to get these figures?

They are kept on record you know. That's why we do returns...



vadnappa said:


> the vic dse is considering adding some species to the list that victorians are allowed to keep. they require specific numbers kept and the keeper/breeders name and state they live in. if anyone has or knows of anyone who keeps any of the following please let me know. all that is required is the number you have, name and state. if anyone has reservations about supplying these please consider the future opportunities for sales and allowing victorians the chance to keep some of these animals.
> 
> Amphibolurus nobbi
> Cyclodomorphus michaeli
> ...


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## killimike (Jan 24, 2012)

Ya, that kind of request is very strange, since they know already...


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## abnrmal91 (Jan 24, 2012)

How else can you work out what people have to steal? (not saying your a thief, but it sounds a little odd)


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## Vincey (Jan 24, 2012)

abnrmal91 said:


> How else can you work out what people have to steal? (not saying your a thief, but it sounds a little odd)


Mmm.. vad_nappa_. K 
Seems everyone has reservations about supplying data such as this. Do you have a number or link to said information other than your own source?
If so then maybe the change over there could kick start changes in W.A & Tas.. wishful tihnking I know but eh.

Cheers.


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## Dmnted (Jan 24, 2012)

Does seem like a strange request.
I can't find anything on their website either.
Private Wildlife Licences

Not that I'm pointing any fingers but a solid reference to their intentions may get a whole heap of people in VIC excited!


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## Tiliqua (Jan 24, 2012)

Well, where do I send my details? I keep the skink mentioned there and my mates keep most of the monitors listed, minus pilbarensis and kingorum. Send me the email link and i'll send the relevant info.


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## sutto75 (Jan 24, 2012)

mmmmmm fishy i thinks.......


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## PMyers (Jan 24, 2012)

I would wait until morning, and those interested in giving the information could always contact the VIC DEC direct to both ascertain the bona fides and, if true, give what details they wish. I personally think it's a little intrusive for them to know your name and state if they are simply trying to figure out the current numbers of captive stock. Then again, as mentioned already, why don't they simply contact the relevant authorities who already have all the information they require?


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## junglepython2 (Jan 24, 2012)

They do require numbers for the submission, but gathering from APS is hardly getting solid numbers, youre best bet is to contact the other states authorities for numbers.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 24, 2012)

The numbers need to be provided by the people making the submissions, DSE is not interested in doing this kind of work. If the numbers are not provided in the submission the updates won't get approved. I can't see any governing body releasing numbers to the general public so other ways need to be found to gather the relevant information.


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## stimigex (Jan 24, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> Why doesn't the DSE just contact the relevant authorities in other states to get these figures?
> 
> They are kept on record you know. That's why we do returns...



When we have the chance to do submissions for a proposed change to the species keep list the onous
is on the person doing the submission to research and provide these numbers. This system make doing a submission harder than in really needs to be!
The Vic DSE is not one to make the job an easy one.
Quite a lot of the submissions get rejected because of lack of detail and depth.


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## Dmnted (Jan 24, 2012)

Junglepython and Katotikjezta's comments make perfect sense I guess.
What would be their reason for needing to know numbers of such kept species and more specifically names?
Would it be to stop an inaccurate submission getting passed?


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## PMyers (Jan 24, 2012)

So you're trying to tell me that they don't check out the figures prior to accepting or rejecting a decision? So what's to stop a party from simply fudging the figures? Of course they already know, and have ready access to these figures. Seems like a sad case of hoop jumping to me.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 24, 2012)

My name is Johnny Depp, I keep 10 of every species on the NSW license species list, if given the chance I will flood the Vic market with any animal I can


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 24, 2012)

They would check once the submission goes through but I guess they figure if you don't put in the effort you don't really have the research behind you to back the submission.



Dmnted said:


> Junglepython and Katotikjezta's comments make perfect sense I guess.
> What would be their reason for needing to know numbers of such kept species and more specifically names?
> Would it be to stop an inaccurate submission getting passed?


If they deem that there are not enough animals in private collections they wont bother adding it to the list. They have also removed things from the list due to lack of availability. It's the government, they work in more mysterious ways than god.


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## Dmnted (Jan 24, 2012)

Fair call KaoticJezta..Like the age old saying "You learn something everyday"
Now I'm just waiting for some **#[email protected]!! to ask if they can make the same submission in relation to ball pythons :lol:


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## PMyers (Jan 24, 2012)

KaotikJezta said:


> They would check once the submission goes through but I guess they figure if you don't put in the effort you don't really have the research behind you to back the submission.



So, yeah... hoop jumping. Better known as "We'll do everything in our power to make this submission as difficult as humanly possible... simply because we can". Bureaucratic Bull^%$t at it's finest


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## Red-Ink (Jan 24, 2012)

PMyers said:


> So, yeah... hoop jumping. Better known as "We'll do everything in our power to make this submission as difficult as humanly possible... simply because we can". Bureaucratic Bull^%$t at it's finest



A little from column A and a little from column B...

Stops submissions like..

Hey, could I have the oenpelli cuz I thinkz their sick. I fullys knows how to take heaps good carez of them and the likes cuz I've had children pythons befores... Wadya reckons, it would be fully nice if we'z have them first before syds cuz likes wez can sellz them up there and make some maddaz cash.


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## Snowman (Jan 24, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> Why doesn't the DSE just contact the relevant authorities in other states to get these figures?
> 
> They are kept on record you know. That's why we do returns...



WA DEC cant give figures based on returns because it's all kept on paper records in fiiling cabinets. They admit that they have no idea how many of each species there are on record at any one time.... Apparently it's too expensive to log it into a data base or do electronic returns.


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## abnrmal91 (Jan 24, 2012)

Snowman said:


> WA DEC cant give figures based on returns because it's all kept on paper records in fiiling cabinets. They admit that they have no idea how many of each species there are on record at any one time.... Apparently it's too expensive to log it into a data base or do electronic returns.


 Excel is pretty cheap, these agencies just don't care about anything unless it's making keeping harder


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## Wally (Jan 24, 2012)

Snowman said:


> WA DEC cant give figures based on returns because it's all kept on paper records in fiiling cabinets. They admit that they have no idea how many of each species there are on record at any one time.... Apparently it's too expensive to log it into a data base or do electronic returns.



Where is all that dirt money going that we here in the east keep getting told about that you guys in the west are positively swimming in?


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## whyme (Jan 24, 2012)

Ummmm, I really, really want a panoptes. PLEASE!!!!!!! P.s. I'm serious!!


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## vadnappa (Jan 24, 2012)

as some have stated, dse will not do this research. i have already approached ALL of the other states departments and included their responses in my submissions, however there are discrepencies between what is on record and what is being held apparently. any one is welcome to contact dse themselves. the stage i am at is.. i put in 17 submissions to the advissory comitee (which is all done through the dse site, if you have a good look) out of those 17 i think about 8 of mine and a couple from other people have been accepted to be discussed. that had to be done by last july. the hearing for these is this march. i was emailed by the comitee to get some solid figures from breeders/keepers. then find someone in that state to approach there department and try and get a official report to submit. so yes basically trying to make it as hard as possible to get anything added. i started theses submissions 8 months ago so any help would be appreciated. if no one wishes to put their name down thats a shame, but understandable. and as for numbers they want more than 20 animals in other states before considering the species. and the most veiwed australian public reptile forum is probably one of the better ways to reach the most people?


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## waruikazi (Jan 24, 2012)

> then find someone in that state to approach there department and try and get a official report to submit.



What kind of official report, is this to verify numbers that they have already established there are discrepencies in? And why are they asking for a third party (as in not you, the one who is making the proposal) to do it?

Is this all a way for the DSE to make things as tricky as possible?

I doubt there are more than 20 of most of those species you listed in the NT but i'm happy to approach NTPWS on your behalf. They are usually pretty good to deal with.


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 24, 2012)

Can you please post the species you can currently keep in Vic or a link to the list so we know what you guys are missing out on?


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## dihsmaj (Jan 24, 2012)

Geckoman said:


> Can you please post the species you can currently keep in Vic or a link to the list so we know what you guys are missing out on?


http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/__data/as...tion-for-a-Private-Wildlife-Licence-v11-1.pdf


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## GeckoJosh (Jan 24, 2012)

I dont see P.platurus on there, I keep and breed that species


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## longirostris (Jan 25, 2012)

Just looking at the dragons on your list I would say that it is most unlikely there would be too many people in Australia regularly breeding any of these species. The couple of people that do usually hold onto their youngsters to guarantee continuity of the species in their own collections because most of these species listed are so hard to get and are really only kept by serious enthusiasts. I would be very surprised if there was anything like 20 Canegrass dragons officially on the books in the whole of Australia. If I can be blunt none of these dragon species on your list are actually firmly established in the hobby. 

If I was you I would be working to guarantee continuity of species you can already keep that are rapidly disappearing. Species such as Ctenophorus cristatus, pictus, fionni, vadnappa, decressii that many regard as established will soon be exceptionally difficult to acquire because the one person in Australia who consistently breeds these every year is moving out of the hobby and pretty much discontinuing his activities with breeding and raising reptiles. 

What about trying to get C. isolepis and fordi going, now there's a challenge for you folks in Victoria and these species are already on you keepers list.


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## KaotikJezta (Jan 25, 2012)

longirostris said:


> Just looking at the dragons on your list I would say that it is most unlikely there would be too many people in Australia regularly breeding any of these species. The couple of people that do usually hold onto their youngsters to guarantee continuity of the species in their own collections because most of these species listed are so hard to get and are really only kept by serious enthusiasts. I would be very surprised if there was anything like 20 Canegrass dragons officially on the books in the whole of Australia. If I can be blunt none of these dragon species on your list are actually firmly established in the hobby.
> 
> If I was you I would be working to guarantee continuity of species you can already keep that are rapidly disappearing. Species such as Ctenophorus cristatus, pictus, fionni, vadnappa, decressii that many regard as established will soon be exceptionally difficult to acquire because the one person in Australia who consistently breeds these every year is moving out of the hobby and pretty much discontinuing his activities with breeding and raising reptiles.
> 
> What about trying to get C. isolepis and fordi going, now there's a challenge for you folks in Victoria and these species are already on you keepers list.



You have a point, I for one, would love to get into keeping some of those dragons. Painted and crested especially.


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## vadnappa (Jan 26, 2012)

waruikazi said:


> What kind of official report, is this to verify numbers that they have already established there are discrepencies in? And why are they asking for a third party (as in not you, the one who is making the proposal) to do it?
> 
> Is this all a way for the DSE to make things as tricky as possible?
> 
> I doubt there are more than 20 of most of those species you listed in the NT but i'm happy to approach NTPWS on your behalf. They are usually pretty good to deal with.



yes i think it is just to make it as tricky as possible, my understanding is the advissory comitee was setup because of numerous complaints by lisence holders.
i beleive there only needs to be more then 20 in total not in every state, it would be very helpfull if you could approach NTPWS as i did not get anywhere with them when i tried. as i dont live there they couldnt disclose numbers to me.
ofcoarse i realise the majority of these wont go through, this is just the list i was emailed from the comitee to try and get more figures for.
and i have kept the majority of dragons and odatria on our current list, i would love to keep malee and central military's however i have not been able to find them as of yet, i had a chance to get 2 malee's once but by the time i had grabbed some cash they were gone.


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## snakerelocation (Jan 26, 2012)

just read through the list of species in the different schedule lists..... what a joke. a common brown tree snake in the same schedule as an eastern brown.
yeah they would be on par to keep and handle....


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## Ramsayi (Jan 26, 2012)

vadnappa said:


> as some have stated, dse will not do this research. i have already approached ALL of the other states departments and included their responses in my submissions, however there are discrepencies between what is on record and what is being held apparently. any one is welcome to contact dse themselves. the stage i am at is.. i put in 17 submissions to the advissory comitee (which is all done through the dse site, if you have a good look) out of those 17 i think about 8 of mine and a couple from other people have been accepted to be discussed. that had to be done by last july. the hearing for these is this march. i was emailed by the comitee to get some solid figures from breeders/keepers. then find someone in that state to approach there department and try and get a official report to submit. so yes basically trying to make it as hard as possible to get anything added. i started theses submissions 8 months ago so any help would be appreciated. if no one wishes to put their name down thats a shame, but understandable. and as for numbers they want more than 20 animals in other states before considering the species. and the most veiwed australian public reptile forum is probably one of the better ways to reach the most people?



You would have to get the numbers from the relevant department in each state as I doubt they would go by any anonymous info you collected via a website.Even if the departments numbers of what is being kept is incorrect they are the official numbers and the ones they could not dispute.In NSW they used to make numbers of what was being kept public but stopped that quite a few years ago.I guess the best way would be to access each states info via FOI if they wont give out that info anymore.


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## vadnappa (Jan 26, 2012)

i have already approached each states relevant departments and included all information i was given in my original submissions. i was then asked to try and get numbers from private individuals.


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## junglepython2 (Jan 26, 2012)

snakerelocation said:


> just read through the list of species in the different schedule lists..... what a joke. a common brown tree snake in the same schedule as an eastern brown.
> yeah they would be on par to keep and handle....



They are both on the advanced list, what is the problem with that? It doesn't mean they are on par.


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## Amazing Amazon (Jan 26, 2012)

Advanced license full stop in Victoria is a joke! If you are 18 years old and have $183.20 is all you need to get one! No experience, no previous basic license, no nothing. The only difference is an extra $120 and cant be sold commercially. 
Paul


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## junglepython2 (Jan 26, 2012)

What is wrong with that? We already live in a nanny state, why make it worse.


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## Amazing Amazon (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't think being allowed to own an Inland Taipan as your first snake with no training or previous experience is real flash. Disaster waiting to happen!
Paul


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## junglepython2 (Jan 26, 2012)

Amazing Amazon said:


> I don't think being allowed to own an Inland Taipan as your first snake with no training or previous experience is real flash. Disaster waiting to happen!
> Paul



In theory yes but how often does that really happen?


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## Boidae (Jan 26, 2012)

Yep, Inland Taipans and Woma Pythons in the same category..
Lets not that forget Lacies and Scrubs are on basic. This in particular is a serious worry,
look through the old threads at how many 15 year olds want to get Lacies and Scrubs...
Ahhhh Victoria..


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## Red-Ink (Jan 26, 2012)

boidae said:


> Yep, Inland Taipans and Woma Pythons in the same category..
> Lets not that forget Lacies and Scrubs are on basic. This in particular is a serious worry,
> look through the old threads at how many 15 year olds want to get Lacies and Scrubs...
> Ahhhh Victoria..



Is there much of a difference between a cranky olive and a cranky scrubby?


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## saximus (Jan 26, 2012)

Red-Ink said:


> Is there much of a difference between a cranky olive and a cranky scrubby?



According to the scrubby owners on here there is. Or maybe it's just because more often than not they seem to have split personalities and can turn on you out of the blue


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## snakerelocation (Jan 28, 2012)

In queensland the brown tree snake is on the basic licence as a starter i guess to vens, but to have a relatively harmless snake in the same catagorie, just amuses me, the brown tree snake is relativly slow compared to an eb, and alot easier to handle.



Amazing Amazon said:


> Advanced license full stop in Victoria is a joke! If you are 18 years old and have $183.20 is all you need to get one! No experience, no previous basic license, no nothing. The only difference is an extra $120 and cant be sold commercially.
> Paul



yeah your right, here is alot harder to get, you need verafiable experience, and have held a basic licence.
I guess its like alot of thing, what young bloke dieing to get his bike licence wants to be riding a postie bike, they all drewl over the like of the R1.
havent got a problem with people progressing but think there should be some form of testing to prove you have the knowledge and the skills to keep - house -feed - and handle a dangerous elapid.


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## atothej09 (Jan 28, 2012)

You can have most pets without any experience. Dogs, cats, birds etc...don't single out reptiles. 

Having a licence to have a child should be mandatory IMO. Must have credible history and 'looking after a child' courses should be part of the application. Too many nuffies out there can have kids when most should not be bringing a child into the world at all. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tassie97 (Jan 28, 2012)

boidae said:


> Yep, Inland Taipans and Woma Pythons in the same category..



lol what about Tasmania, tiger snakes are on the same license as delicate skinks!


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## Vincey (Jan 28, 2012)

Tassie97 said:


> lol what about Tasmania, tiger snakes are on the same license as delicate skinks!



Tigers and Taipans are on the same list as olives and any monitor over a foot long for us over in W.A 
I really think they need to have a common sense look at the licence categorizing. 

Not saying that monitors and olives shouldn't be taken as serious as an elapid when it comes to care and what-not, but it sort of ruins it for people who don't really want to dabble in elapids but would love to get a nice monitor or larger python. Needing the most advanced license and ven. course + references to do this is dumb.

END RANT lol


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## eipper (Jan 28, 2012)

You cannot keep taipans in wa. As for permit systems not too many systems are based on the viewpoint of the keeper (while some authorities have taken input from keepers). Most systems are based around ease of inforcement and perceived safety of the permit holder.

This in turn allows for some unusual at best permit regulations.

Cheers
scott


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## mad_at_arms (Mar 28, 2012)

Well this thread went off topic.

Anyone know what new species got/getting approved?


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## Pilbarensis (Aug 26, 2012)

bump

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Despite the last post being almost 5 months ago, I find this to be a very interesting topic and would very much like to find out what happened with these species potentially being added to the list. Also am I the only person in VIC that desperately would love V. scalaris to be on the list?


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## Amazing Amazon (Aug 27, 2012)

As far as my understanding any amendments to the Victoria wildlife schedule has been postponed to mid 2013.


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## mad_at_arms (Aug 27, 2012)

Yeah no wheeleri for us Victorians this year.
*sadface.jpg*


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## StellaDoore (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm stoked that wheeleri are on the list, but a little bummed that desert adders haven't made it yet. Not that I'd be getting one anytime soon...
Still, yay for potentially more animals!


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## eipper (Aug 27, 2012)

Pyrrhus are on the Vic lists


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## Pilbarensis (Aug 27, 2012)

Thanks for the update Amazing Amazon. I was looking forward to a lot of those monitors, would be great to have Kimberleys, Mitchells and Scalaris here in VIC. Out of curiosity is anyone going to send in some messages about these species when the times comes?


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## Amazing Amazon (Aug 28, 2012)

We will post as soon as we get the letter with any updates on changes


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