# Re think Cage Sizes



## FAY (Aug 15, 2011)

To the twits from the government departments that want to increase cage sizes AFTER they have had all the right information from the experts, but of course other government departments know better. Here is one for you....
I always put my great eating, fast growing hatchies and upsize their enclosure to suit. On more than one occasion ( a few actually) I have had to put them back to the tub/rack that they came from as they will not eat and need to get them back on track. So for the govt departments that seem to know it all.......nothing is black and white. There are a lot of shades of grey that need to be considered before you go making any enforceable laws. 
Just my rant ...


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## Snakewoman (Aug 15, 2011)

I wonder if any of the people who make these laws actually have any snakes? Doesn't sound like it.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 15, 2011)

Don't get me started...

Jamie


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## Renenet (Aug 15, 2011)

I've heard about this cage sizes review a few times lately. Is this something that's happening Australia-wide or just in a few states? Where do we get information about what's happening? Thanks.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 15, 2011)

So I guess even with a change of state government this crap is still on the table?


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## SYNeR (Aug 15, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read with the requirements (in the huge thread with the attached PDFs), that animals are classified as 'adults' at 12 months old, and therefore need to be in a full sized enclosure?


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## Defective (Aug 15, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Don't get me started...
> 
> Jamie



just go for it jamie!!


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## mcbuggsy (Aug 15, 2011)

*Re Cage sizes....*

I wonder if the NSW State Government realises that institutions like Taronga Zoo and other Zoos with reptile displays (say Australia Zoo and Australian Reptile Park) don't comply with their "guidelines" either.
Hopefully, the announced "cutbacks to National Parks announced by Barry O'Farrell a few days ago, may include the fools who ignored the advice of experts in the process and then proposed this tomfoolery...
(just my 2 cents worth)


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## Snowman (Aug 15, 2011)

Cage sizes seems trivial to West Australians who cant even keep things like a GTP, RSP, RBB etc. I understand your frustration, but there are worse things for some people in the hobby.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 15, 2011)

Snowman said:


> Cage sizes seems trivial to West Australians who cant even keep a GTP or a RSP. I understand your frustration, but there are worse things in the hobby.



Yes but this thread is about enforceable cage sizes in NSW not what you can and cannot keep in WA.


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## Chris1 (Aug 15, 2011)

well, 2 months have passed since they were made aware of the 48 snakes living in their own filth and still nothing has happened there,...as if theyre gonna actually lift a finger to enforce anything once the regulations have been passed,.....


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## Bez84 (Aug 15, 2011)

12 month is an adult snake...who knew.
Ive had yearlings still in hatchy racks because they were slow starters..
And how can they possibly regulate the new law, are they going to search everyone on licence or just pick on the folks with the large collections...


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## Snowman (Aug 15, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Yes but this thread is about enforceable cage sizes in NSW not what you can and cannot keep in WA.


And my point was "get over it! there are worse things than mandatory cage sizes"


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## dangles (Aug 15, 2011)

Snowman said:


> And my point was "get over it! there are worse things than mandatory cage sizes"


So you would be ok if they mandated oversized enclosures for all snakes which may mean you have to get rid of some snakes to be able to house them all under the proposed regs???? Is there any new info on this or just the last thread with the proposed sizes??


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## Snowman (Aug 15, 2011)

I'd just build another double garage or a granny flat... but that’s me. We live with ridiculous laws pertaining to keeping reptiles already here. So what's one more stupid law. 
I'm not saying I agree with mandatory sizes. I think a suggested minimum is sufficient, and where neglect is shown in individual cases then it should be dealt with accordingly.


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## Inkage (Aug 15, 2011)

Iv'e never had large decked out enclosures apart from ''display'' type animals, my enclosures are by no means small but wouldn't fit with these regulations, but as long as there is a ''licensing'' system then i guess we need to have people who know better telling us what to do eh...


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## longqi (Aug 15, 2011)

The regs are for the benefit of most snakes
For breeders etc they will be a pain in the backside if they retain too many yearlings
Too bad
For those who keep lots of larger snakes in racks or plastic boxes
Too bad
Basically if you dont have enough room to house your babies sell some

Far too many people have adopted the American system thats all over Utube etc
Those ideas are for full time commercial breeders who have $$$$ as their bottom line
Hobbyists should be looking at aesthetics and welfare as well

For those who say if they live and breed they are ok
Battery hens live and breed
Force fed pigs live and breed
So in that perspective you are correct
But is it good for the long term?

.


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## Snowman (Aug 15, 2011)

Yet another reason why we need a national reptile society to challange these things.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 15, 2011)

i-snake said:


> i don't get what you's are sooking about, as longqi say's it's for their welfare, sometimes i want to grab someone who keeps there snakes in little tubs and knock up a 4x4x4 ft enclosure and put them in there for the rest of their lifes, how can you say you care for animal welfare and yet the cries go out when they want you to build a bigger home for them, if you can't upsize, then downgrade, it's that simple



What species do you keep and what are their current cage sizes?


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## SamNabz (Aug 15, 2011)

i-snake said:


> i don't get what you's are sooking about, as longqi say's it's for their welfare, sometimes i want to grab someone who keeps there snakes in little tubs and knock up a 4x4x4 ft enclosure and put them in there for the rest of their lifes, how can you say you care for animal welfare and yet the cries go out when they want you to build a bigger home for them, if you can't upsize, then downgrade, it's that simple



Is that a python in a little tub in your avatar I see..?


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## BigWillieStyles (Aug 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> The regs are for the benefit of most snakes
> For breeders etc they will be a pain in the backside if they retain too many yearlings
> Too bad
> For those who keep lots of larger snakes in racks or plastic boxes
> ...



Well said.


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## FAY (Aug 15, 2011)

You are not even getting my first post.
Like I have said...It is NOT Black and White.


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## Australis (Aug 15, 2011)

No one cares what you think is an acceptable cage size for an adder, that the point.


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## SteveNT (Aug 15, 2011)

mcbuggsy said:


> I wonder if the NSW State Government realises that institutions like Taronga Zoo and other Zoos with reptile displays (say Australia Zoo and Australian Reptile Park) don't comply with their "guidelines" either.
> Hopefully, the announced "cutbacks to National Parks announced by Barry O'Farrell a few days ago, may include the fools who ignored the advice of experts in the process and then proposed this tomfoolery...
> (just my 2 cents worth)



They will just cut out more Rangers - end result- the desk drivers (beaurocrats) will have even less information to base their idiotic decisions on. It happens here too. Empty Ranger stations and monumental stuff ups by the ever expanding legions of desk drivers.


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## Inkage (Aug 15, 2011)

My only concern is would these regulations apply to problematic individuals who do not thrive in big open enclosures?


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## GeckoJosh (Aug 15, 2011)

Australis said:


> No one cares what you think is an acceptable cage size for an adder, that the point.


Maybe we should be focussing on what is an acceptable brain size for keepers instead.....


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## FAY (Aug 15, 2011)

Inkage said:


> My only concern is would these regulations apply to problematic individuals who do not thrive in big open enclosures?




Yay Pete.


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## ShaunMorelia (Aug 15, 2011)

My main concerns are that an animal will be classed as an adult at 12mths of age, not based on their size and also that their "code of Practise" is to change within 5 years and we are to comply to that "Standard" as well.
The "code of practice" would be fine if used as a guidline, the first installment sizes in my opinion are fine. But the 2nd installment is so far off its not funny.
They are expecting the keep to provide an enclosure that is more than double in size for a morelia species.

I keep some animals in tubs, some in enclosures. I have found tubs that are 1200mm X 550mm X 550mm. So really that is no different than keeping the same snake in a melamine box.


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## killimike (Aug 15, 2011)

I am still puzzled by people who say it is for the snake's welfare.... why don't we have similar laws regarding cats, dogs, mice, rats, rabbits, ferrets, guinea pigs etc etc? Oh wait we do, generic legislation against animal cruelty. 

The naive anthropomorphism of comments about putting humans in tiny cages "to see how you like it" is just that. So you feed your snake once a week? How about I do the same to you and see how you like it? duh.

I appreciate Fay's point, experienced keepers should not be legislated out of doing what is best for the animals. If you *legislate* to the lowest common denominator, you will just end up causing good guys trouble as they cross the 'i' and dot the 't', get caught and fined on the technicality, while the 'horrible abusers' don't play into the system and mostly never get caught anyway.


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## dixilizards (Aug 15, 2011)

The way i am lead to believe this is to run, and by no means am I in the loop, is that an adult animal will be classed at 12 months of age so do I take it at that time frame both a Carpet, Scrubbie and Olive will have to be kept in the same size enclosure as the Anteresia species'??


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## wokka (Aug 15, 2011)

how can you tell if an animal is under 12 months of age or over 1 months of age?


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## alrightknight (Aug 15, 2011)

Seems to be a lot of snake psychologists here who know what it is snakes exactly like. If people keep there snakes in tubs and smaller enclosures for young pythons ( up to 18months etc) and they have never had problems with them, obviously there is nothing harmful about it. Making them go out upgrade environments for snakes that are already well established in smaller homes just seems ridiculous to me. 

I'm just a beginner, but people who have been in the hobby for many years and have never had problems in the sized enclosures they use should not be asked to change that.


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## killimike (Aug 15, 2011)

i-snake said:


> um a snake eating once a week is natural, spending it's life in a tiny cage is not, yeah they like small spaces but they also like to explore and exercise



The point is it was a faulty analogy. Also, what is 'natural' (by which we mean 'beneficial' not really what happens in the wild) is *precisely* what is in question, so cannot be assumed.


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## Australis (Aug 15, 2011)

i-snake said:


> um a snake eating once a week is natural, spending it's life in a tiny cage is not, yeah they like small spaces but they also like to explore and exercise


 


i-snake said:


> i agree that there needs to be more specifics for it to work, i'm just saying cage wise, the bigger the better



Except for adders?

You cant have it both ways.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 15, 2011)

I get the feeling people don’t know what the new regulations are. Highly experienced keepers who have the welfare of their animals at heart made up the consultation group. That group was then excluded from the final discussions and decisions by megalomaniac bureaucrats. So what you have ended up with is an inflexible and substantial over-reaction by would-be do-gooders that don’t have a good understanding of captive behaviour in snakes. Had they accepted the good advice given them, this thread would not exist. 

And for those concerned that the advice given was about allowing tiny cage sizes, I can assure that it most certainly did NOT follow the American lead.

Blue


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## longqi (Aug 15, 2011)

Blue
We have different duties of care depending on what we do with reptiles
As a demonstrator my first duty of care is to humans who visit and want to play with snakes
As a breeder my first duty of care is to my brood stock
As a hobbyist my duty of care is to all my reptiles
As a rescuer/relocator my duty of care is to myself first then the reptile

While we continue to encourage the use of small racks and click clacks I personally dont feel that is in the best interest of the reptiles
Anything that helps get rid of this all too common practice among hobbyists is only for the good

I completely agree that some species of snakes require much less room than others, the afore mentioned Death Adders being a case in point
But snakes like these are still pretty rarely kept and breed anywhere in Australia
By far the majority of snakes kept in Australia are various morelia
Given the opportunity these are a pretty active reptile

The excuse given of "Oh its a poor feeder; I have to keep it in a click clack" is irrelevant
The reason its irrelevant is that it is simple to put the click clack [or small hide] into a larger enclosure with an entry exit hole in it. Sooner or later the reptile will venture outside; but the reptile has the choice

I have a lot of sympathy for most breeders in NSW now as they really are caught between a rock and a hard place as most will not be able to retain so many yearlings etc and this may result in a lot of downsizing after these regs come into force

While these proposed regulations do have some glaring errors/oversights they are better than anything in force at present
I totally agree that Bureaucrats are idiots in the most part

My fault about the American Lead but I have visited too many warehouses choker block with brood stock and hatchies in lunch boxes floor to ceiling and anything that slows down the probability of that happening in Aus can only be good for the snakes


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 16, 2011)

What you are referring to is the needs of the high volume breeder vs the needs of the snake. I agree that is definitely a difference between survival and quality of life. Snakes kept in tiny racks survive but are deprived of the much wider range of sensory stimuli that can be made available in a larger space not to mention the benefits of being more mobile. They can engage and react to a much greater set of stimuli – which although not entirely natural, is a lot closer to that which they experience in small opaque plastic containers. Hence your comparison to battery hens. The reality is, of course, that not only breeders are guilty of confining their pets. 

I believe we do agree in principle. However, in practice I am not sure. Caging requirements vary for different species and for different sized individuals of a given species. Arboreal species need the height instead of the width. Semi-arboreal species need both height and width. Highly active species need more volume than equivalent sized inactive species. The size of a cage and its dimensions should be determined by the size of the occupant, how active the occupant is and whether it is arboreal or terrestrial or both. Bottom line – you want to provide an enclosure, the dimensions of which will allow as close as possible for the occupant to act as it would in nature.

Part of the problem is that there is not that fined grained differentiation in the standards they have set, so a lot of the time people are going to have to house animals in cages that are larger and often much larger than they need be. It will certainly stop the rack style raising but is going to unnecessarily inconvenience the general hobbyist in term of financial out and availability of space with corresponding limitations on numbers that can be kept. The other aspect is what Fay pointed out. By defining an a yearling as an adult and insisting it therefore go into a much larger enclosure, both the keeper and the snake lose out.

I agree that legislating minimum cage sizes might seem like a potential positive step. However, when you scratch the surface you start to realise it is actually a retrograde step. Providing recommendations for minimum cage sizes is all that is required, if that.

Blue


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## longqi (Aug 16, 2011)

I do actually agree with a lot of what you have said
But I wasnt really only talking about commercial breeders [who I really for in this particular instance]
There have been a lot of threads and discussion lately about how long you can keep various morelia including GTPs in click clacks and racks
And the people asking are not commercial breeders, so that is a worry as they must be more like reptile collectors

The task they were given is virtually impossible to make perfect because even various morelia reach very differing sizes depending on locality; eg Palmerston and Atherton Jungles; yet are exactly the same scientifically
So to try to give exact dimensions for each species would be impossible


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## D3pro (Aug 16, 2011)

It's interesting that the B-Cats care so much about our snakes, yet overlook housing laws for other animals (chickens, cows, refugees)... thats just racist towards reptile keepers lol


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## joelly116 (Aug 16, 2011)

they will be a tone of ppl that dnt change anything to do with cages at all, so dnt let it worry you


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## snakehandler (Aug 16, 2011)

So how does one go about decking what sized enclosure is best for the animals welfare? We cannot use home ranges as an indicator as not enough is known about those for each species permitted to be kept, so do we go in past history? What has worked for others....do we look at stress indicators, but that will change for each individual, do we then look at the purpose of the animal, display, demonstration, breeder, pet? Should they all be considered the same? The main thing to remember is that different species have different requirements and to make generalizations will not be in the best interest of the animals!


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## Colin (Aug 16, 2011)

theres a few people involved in these government departments that are pushin g for this cage size mandatory introduction that are animal liberationists by whatever name they use.. its still the same brush.. theres been a world wide trend for these people infiltrating government departments and trying to influence the culture of the government depatments to this "animal libber" way of thinking.. the RSPCA is basically an animal libber organization. and PETA are animal libbers

Its been stated by one of these DECC blokes in public he would prefer that no one was allowed to keep native animals at all.. and thats what their aim is.. It has nothing to do with animal welfare or keeping animals properly etc They cant take our licences off us BUT they have used this TROJAN HORSE caging requirment draft to try and force people out of the hobby by making the requirements of keeping our animals financially prohibitive by increasing the enclosue sizes to ridiculous levels.. so if introduced it will start to acheive their aim of forcing people out of the hobby and keeping reptiles by this trojan horse method called the DECC caging mandatory requirement.. even though ALL the actual experts in these fields that have REAL experience with REPTILES say the caging sizes mandatory rules are unecessary and detrimental to the animals.. all this was ignored by the government pushing for its introduction because they dont give a stuff about the animals at all and its all to stop us keeping them. why have the real experts been ignored? why have the DECC gone ito secret mode and are trying to hide what they are doing? Its a scam and because the reptile community are not organised and we fight between ourselves we are seen as an "easy mark" for these animal libbers to divide and conquer.. we need to put our differences aside and we need to join forces into one body (NRKA) and get some good legal representation to take these people on in court. And get some media exposure to shame the ministers and governement enough to stomp on this cage size rubbish. 

THATS what I think its all about and have stated this same reason a few years ago on here... nothings changed and these same animal libbers have been manipulating this caging push.. Have a look at the letter from the DDI to the DECC that came with the freedom of information caging docs last year.. 

*Jamie.. come on mate.. have your say *


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## dixilizards (Aug 16, 2011)

Colin, 

I completely agree that we need a central society/body for the representation of all reptile keepers in Australia, throughout our hobby we have many well known names that can help with publicity and exposure to the greater public.

It surely can't be that hard for the currently operating Herp Society's to join as one and work toward this common good for us keepers.

Has this idea ever been entertained in the past?

I for one would be more than happy to enter into a class action for the, frankly, stupid and ill informed decisions made by organisations that have little to no knowledge of reptiles and there requirements first hand.

I think with all the recent expansion of reptile keepers in this country that we need to begin a much larger push and unite to work as one!


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> The regs are for the benefit of most snakes
> For breeders etc they will be a pain in the backside if they retain too many yearlings
> Too bad
> For those who keep lots of larger snakes in racks or plastic boxes
> ...



Having been involved in this exercise from the outset Longqi, I have to say that your first premise is incorrect. The evolution of MANDATORY cage sizes has far more to do with politics and the personal opinions/beliefs/prejudices of the bureaucrats who entered into discussions with some of the most experienced reptile keepers in the country, and after 18 months, discarded the advice they were given by the very people who have made reptiles a major part of their professional lives. With an exception or two, the consultants were NOT professional or commercial breeders.

From the outset, but unknown to us, this has been an exercise to force a particular ideology on reptile keepers in NSW, and it is part of an Australia-wide move to force more controls by legislation onto reptile keepers in this country. It is no secret that reptile keepers are regarded with distaste by most state bureaucracies in this country. The 'look' of enclosures is very important to them, but the fact that our breeding successes and the general health of our captives has never been better in the history of keeping, escapes them, and it seems, you too.

I'm surprised to see Bluetongue1 suggesting that increasing the power of the enforcers might be a helpful step, especially as he lives in WA, where reptile keepers still have crawl on their bellies to please their bureaucratic masters. Enforcement does little or nothing to address the problem of cruelty - cruel or insensitive people are always just that, and most will never be scrutinised.

The problem with all of this is that the Department has been asked 
many times for details of ongoing problems, or in fact ANY evidence of an ongoing problem with regard to keeper cruelty, and our requests fall on deaf ears.

This legislation is the baby of a couple of zealous bureaucrats who have found something they think will have their names up in lights if they succeed in wielding the big hammer. ANY legislation MUST be justified by evidence of need before being inflicted on the public.

They have not justified it because they can't, so they remain silent.

Longqi, whilst I understand your concern for the welfare of all captive reptiles, you are probably very anthropomorphic in your approach If you accept the fact that a snake in prime physical condition, which breeds well and is in all repects a healthy animal, as many more of our captives are today compared to even 20 years ago, then we as group must be doing something right. There is no reasonable comparison which can be made with battery hens or intensive piggeries - neither of which I approve of... and don't even get me started on the live cattle & sheep export trades... If you live in Indonesia, perhaps you should spend a bit of time trying to change the barbaric practices with these animals there, rather than suggesting that something may not be right with the private reptile keeping hobby here...

Jamie


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## nathancl (Aug 16, 2011)

Its been discussed alot, media exposure might backfire also because the general public will of course think its cruel to keep animals in little plastic boxes.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2011)

DECCW (as it was then) has argued that public perception is a major consideration in their endeavour to bring this new thinking into reality.

My argument is: how many members of the uninvolved public do you know, who truly understand the needs of reptiles? Would you be happy allowing the naive opinions of people who don't know anything about reptiles dictate to you how you keep your animals? That's a part of what the Department is building in to this legislation.

In effect, it's a PR exercise for the Department, so they can be seen to be doing something - invent a problem which doesn't exist, convince everybody that there is a problem and they can fix it with a big stick (and funnel more money into the bureaucracy for more staff), and then be seen to fix it so it looks great on your CV... it happens everywhere, but there is no need for this here, so it should not happen.

Education is the ONLY way to bring about a broad change of attitude in any community. If you keep on educating, you keep on managing any potential problems...

But you don't get your name up in lights for that...

Jamie


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## BigWillieStyles (Aug 16, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> The problem with all of this is that the Department has been asked
> many times for details of ongoing problems, or in fact ANY evidence of an ongoing problem with regard to keeper cruelty, and our requests fall on deaf ears.
> 
> This legislation is the baby of a couple of zealous bureaucrats who have found something they think will have their names up in lights if they succeed in wielding the big hammer. ANY legislation MUST be justified by evidence of need before being inflicted on the public.
> ...



I find it amazing that people who call themselves animal lovers are trying to suggest that there needs to be less stringent legislation and pushing for the concept of plastic boxes. 

As far as Im aware RSPCA has little to do with reptiles, and the major imput driving these changes is recommendations from the Native Animal Keepers Consultative Committee which has three members who are experts on reptiles. To claim that these changes are made by beaurocrates who know little about reptiles or have not consulted in regard to these changes is obsurd.


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## wokka (Aug 16, 2011)

BigWillieStyles said:


> I find it amazing that people who call themselves animal lovers are trying to suggest that there needs to be less stringent legislation and pushing for the concept of plastic boxes.
> 
> .


Legislation does little to help animals. Take licencing as an example. I believe as many animals are kept off licence by those wishing to avoid any scrutiny. If ever the current draft code is addopted as enforcable legislation, it will increase incentive for keepers to move underground. Plastic boxes have there place as do cages and outdoor pits, but animals are individuals anddont necessarily fit into a "one size fits all" set of rules.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2011)

BigWillieStyles said:


> I find it amazing that people who call themselves animal lovers are trying to suggest that there needs to be less stringent legislation and pushing for the concept of plastic boxes.
> 
> As far as Im aware RSPCA has little to do with reptiles, and the major imput driving these changes is recommendations from the Native Animal Keepers Consultative Committee which has three members who are experts on reptiles. To claim that these changes are made by beaurocrates who know little about reptiles or have not consulted herpetculturalists is obsurd.



Nobody said anything about less stringent legislation BWS, if you are going to contribute usefully, it would be better if you took the time to read the posts and understand the issues.

With regard to the NAKCC - who do you think occupy some of the chairs when the NAKCC meets? The very bureaucrats who, in their day jobs, are pushing this stuff through their departments. The NAKCC is made up of a range of people from diverse backgrounds and occupations, not surprisingly some of them work for Government departments...

Jamie


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## BigWillieStyles (Aug 16, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Nobody said anything about less stringent legislation BWS, if you are going to contribute usefully, it would be better if you took the time to read the posts and understand the issues.
> 
> With regard to the NAKCC - who do you think occupy some of the chairs when the NAKCC meets? The very bureaucrats who, in their day jobs, are pushing this stuff through their departments. The NAKCC is made up of a range of people from diverse backgrounds and occupations, not surprisingly some of them work for Government departments...
> 
> Jamie



I did read through the whole thread and was responding to the fact that some posts are suggesting that small plastic boxes are suitable.

Your right, the Native Animal Keeper Consultation Committee is made up of a diverse group that include Professional Herpetologists Glen O'shea and Gerry Swan both that have been active in scientific and herpetculturalist groups for many years.


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## wokka (Aug 16, 2011)

BigWillieStyles said:


> I did read through the whole thread and was responding to the fact that some posts are suggesting that small plastic boxes are suitable.
> 
> Your right, the Native Animal Keeper Consultation Committee is made up of a diverse group that include Professional Herpetologists Glen O'shea and Gerry Swan both that have been active in scientific and herpetculturalist groups for many years.


Are you suggesting that Glen or Gerry support legislated minimum cage sizes ?


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2011)

BigWillieStyles said:


> I did read through the whole thread and was responding to the fact that some posts are suggesting that small plastic boxes are suitable.
> 
> Your right, the Native Animal Keeper Consultation Committee is made up of a diverse group that include Professional Herpetologists Glen O'shea and Gerry Swan both that have been active in scientific and herpetculturalist groups for many years.



Dr Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan are also, like me, members of the Expert Advisory Group put together by DECCW as a consultative group for the development of the Reptile Keepers Code of Practice. The EAG is UNANIMOUSLY opposed to the introduction of mandatory standards for reptile keepers in NSW, ESPECIALLY mandatory cage sizes. This includes Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan. And yes, DECCW has disregarded the advice of both these very learned gentlemen.

Glenn Shea is a veterinary scientist, with a big interest in herpetology, not a professional herpetologist. Gerry could be described as an author and field biologist.

Jamie


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## BigWillieStyles (Aug 16, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Dr Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan are also, like me, members of the Expert Advisory Group put together by DECCW as a consultative group for the development of the Reptile Keepers Code of Practice. The EAG is UNANIMOUSLY opposed to the introduction of mandatory standards for reptile keepers in NSW, ESPECIALLY mandatory cage sizes. This includes Glenn Shea and Gerry Swan.
> 
> Glenn Shea is a veterinary scientis, not a professional herpetologist. Gerry could be described as an author and field biologist.
> 
> Jamie



Well thats just stupidity being opposed to mandatory standards and is really making the assumption that every reptile owner will always choose the animals welfare first.

Gerry Swan was President of the Australian Herpetological Society 1975-1977 and 1995-1998 and Glenn Shea is a senior lecture at Sydney University with over 80 scientific papers to his name with his major research focus on 'Systematics and natural history of Australasian reptiles and amphibians.'


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## GeckoJosh (Aug 16, 2011)

Being the president of AHS or any Herp society doesn't automatically make you a Herpetologist, it just makes you a sucker for punishment lol


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## BigWillieStyles (Aug 16, 2011)

Goldmember said:


> Being the president of AHS or any Herp society doesn't make you a Herpetologist, it just makes you a sucker for punishment lol



Well what does make someone a professional herpetologist? In my understanding, having appropriate qualifications, work experience, published literatue and participation in professional reptile discussion groups? 

Getting a bit of topic now


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2011)

BigWillieStyles said:


> Well thats just stupidity being opposed to mandatory standards and is really making the assumption that every reptile owner will always choose the animals welfare first.
> 
> Gerry Swan was President of the Australian Herpetological Society 1975-1977 and 1995-1998 and Glenn Shea is a senior lecture at Sydney University with over 80 scientific papers to his name with his major research focus on 'Systematics and natural history of Australasian reptiles and amphibians.'



BWS, I've worked with these two people, and the other 6 or 7 members of the EAG for almost 3 years now. You'll have to ask them why they oppose the mandatory standards as strongly as I do, but I'm sure they will have the same reasons as I have. Call them stupid if you will... I think they are wise men indeed.

Or are you suggesting I am misrepresenting their position on this matter? You'll have to ask them yourself to get the picture "from the horses mouth" so to speak. As a matter of interest, the current President of the AHS, Michael Duncan, is also on the EAG, and shares the same opinion as the rest of the group. As I said, the opposition to mandatory standards is unanimous, and the reasons have been well explained.

Maybe there's something you missed... or perhaps they know a bit more about it than you do...

Jamie


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## mysnakesau (Aug 16, 2011)

I have tried and tested putting smaller snakes in larger enclosures and I have not had a lot of success with them. For one, the snakes seem to be frightened of the amount of space they have which then causes problems such as permanent hiding, they stop feeding and their general well being deteriorates, and they can have difficulty finding warm spots, water and hides simply because they are too scared to move. I use to believe it was cruel keeping snakes in small tubs etc, but now I am learning, by my animals behaviour, that is what they prefer. I have downgraded a few of snakes over the time and successfully get them feeding again.

I had a beautiful yellow intergrade - about 4-5ft long - quite and inquisitive fellow, thought he'd like to upgrade from his 3ft tank to a 4x2x2.5H tank. He pinned himself in the corner behind the thickest hiding spot and would not come out to eat. Wouldn't come out to go his warm spot and if I bothered him he got stressed and couldn't wait to get back to his hiding spot. Moving him into that tank ruined him. I downgraded him back to his old enclosure which eventually got him eating again but he would never come out anymore. He saw anyone and went off, quickly, to his hide box.

Similar situation with my 2yr old bredli's. So don't think large enclosures are ALL that necessary because they aren't. Use your brain and watch your own snakes behaviour. THEY are the ones who can tell you if they're happy or not.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 16, 2011)

Why do some people seem to think that it's all about not keeping reptiles in tubs? It is much much more than that and to zero in on the use or not of tubs is taking a very narrow minded,naive point of view on the matter.


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## Chris1 (Aug 16, 2011)

so the people so opposed to this, are you talking only about snakes not needing room to move, or lizards as well?


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## Ramsayi (Aug 16, 2011)

Chris1 said:


> so the people so opposed to this, are you talking only about snakes not needing room to move, or lizards as well?



It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all.

If you don't keep water bowls in enclosures all the time,you are breaking the law.I only offer water to my desert species twice a week therefore I would be breaking the law,forget the fact that reptiles will not drink from a bowl that has had water in it for more than a day or two.Keep stale water in the enclosure that the occupants will not drink,fine,according to the powers that be,not a problem.

I should add that all of my enclosures will comply with the proposal but that's hardly the point.The fact that some nuffy who in all likely hood wouldn't know his you know what from his elbow could come in and tell me how I should be keeping my collection is beyond a joke.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 16, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> ….
> I'm surprised to see Bluetongue1 suggesting that increasing the power of the enforcers might be a helpful step….
> Jamie


 
Thank you for picking that up Jamie. I was being rather naïve in my thinking at that moment in time, despite the reservations I stated with it. What I had in mind would not happen in reality, there is no need for it to happen and any such legislation is then open to applying further restrictions in the future, slyly, bit by bit, eating into one’s civil liberties – which absolutely will happen! I shall alter my comment accordingly. 

Mike


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## Ramsayi (Aug 16, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> Thank you for picking that up Jamie. I was being rather naïve in my thinking at that moment in time, despite the reservations I stated with it. What I had in mind would not happen in reality, there is no need for it to happen and any such legislation is then open to applying further restrictions in the future, slyly, bit by bit, eating into one’s civil liberties – which absolutely will happen! I shall alter my comment accordingly.
> 
> Mike



Understand too that if the legislation gets up in NSW then the authorities in other states may decide to take the same stance.


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## longqi (Aug 16, 2011)

Slight variations of these proposed rules are already in place in at least three states for Exhibitors and Demonstrators and are pretty vigorously checked in Queensland and NSW at least for Demonstrators [not too sure about checking Exhibitors much now]

Some legislation for private collections is required
By far the easiest was always a simple formula
Length x Weight x ????cubic metres either vertical for arboreal or horizontal for terrestrial
with suggestion ideal combinations of height/width/length


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## Snowman (Aug 16, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Understand too that if the legislation gets up in NSW then the authorities in other states may decide to take the same stance.



Not WA. DEC refuses to look at how things work in other states  That's why we have the worst keeping system in the country and one of the newest ones too.


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## mysnakesau (Aug 16, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
> Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all......**



This is just an example but a "one size fits all" means a hatchling BHP in a 4ft tank? You would never see him. He would not thrive. That area is way too big for a lot of snakes. They wouldn't safe finding their way to their warmth, their water and eating would become an issue because they are too cold because they can't find their heat. Not to mention gaps that they can escape from. Newbies aren't as knowing as someone who's had more experience, about the gaps between the glass, and even the width of slots that are cut into timber enclosures for ventilation. I am only 4yr old in this game, too, but I have learnt through experience there just is no advantage or benefit to the animals putting them in enclosures that are too big.


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## wokka (Aug 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Slight variations of these proposed rules are already in place in at least three states for Exhibitors and Demonstrators and are pretty vigorously checked in Queensland and NSW at least for Demonstrators [not too sure about checking Exhibitors much now]
> 
> Some legislation for private collections is required
> By far the easiest was always a simple formula
> ...


I am not sure where the "current" draft is up to, but at one stage it was suggested that the code was to be an interim measure and that in 5 years private keepers in nsw would have to meet the nsw demonstrators standard. To make it even more rediculous, we dont even know what the demonstrators standards will be in 5 years .


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 16, 2011)

i-snake said:


> i agree with longqi's sizing method in fact i stated it earlier in this thread as it leaves room for individual snake sizes being accomodated for.



This is evidence that we're just you know what in the wind trying to make people aware of the implications of what National Parks is proposing in NSW. For Christ's sake, will you stupid people realise that what longqi or anyone else proposes as reasonable counts for nothing... the department has an idea in its head, and if they don't listen to 12 of the most experienced reptile people (academics, veterinary experts, professional keepers and private keepers with 40+years experience), they're not going to listen to longqi and his anthropomorphic crap and pie-in-the-sky formulae, or Little Miss Muffet or ANYONE ...

The issue is actually about a Government department bringing in laws to address a 'problem' which they cannot tell us actually exists - if you think cruel Joe Bloggs down the road, who makes his snakes jump through flaming hoops on Friday nights is going to be quaking in his boots because suddenly it has become illegal to make snakes jump through flaming hoops... think again. His chances of being caught are next to nil, so life will go on unimpeded for him. We all know of cases of less than satisfactory animal management, but the only way these things can change will be through education, not enforcement. Enforcement will simply drive the offenders even deeper underground.

No Government department should EVER be supported if they try to legislate without clearly demonstrating a need for enforceability, and DECCW has consistently failed to do this.

Jamie


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## Colin (Aug 17, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
> Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all.
> 
> If you don't keep water bowls in enclosures all the time,you are breaking the law.I only offer water to my desert species twice a week therefore I would be breaking the law,forget the fact that reptiles will not drink from a bowl that has had water in it for more than a day or two.Keep stale water in the enclosure that the occupants will not drink,fine,according to the powers that be,not a problem.
> ...



great post ramsayi and I totally agree with what your saying. In regard to the situation with your BHPs i have the same situation with jungles.. some locality forms are much smaller than other forms but all still "jungles" plus the fact that all snakes are individuals and some will do better in a smaller enclosure and some in a bigger one. Its the keepers knowledge of their OWN animals that are the best to determine the cage sizes and husbandry methods. this is why we keep them.. because we love them and want to look after them well and see them flourish in captivity.. and and cage size draft should be a SUGGESTED size only for the individual keeper to determine for their OWN individual animals. 

we are the ones who successfully keep and breed our animals, not the government.. how many of the confiscated animals that have been in government "care" have DIED over the years? a hell of a lot from what Ive heard.. they can't even keep basic species alive let alone flourish and do well.. and they want to tell us how to keep them? what a joke that is..


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 17, 2011)

Ha, thanks for the edit Col! Vino can cloud ones judgement sometimes lol! 
But the essential message is there... _you always have something good to contribute jamie.. sloshed or not 

_Jamie


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## Cockney_Red (Aug 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> theres a few people involved in these government departments that are pushin g for this cage size mandatory introduction that are animal liberationists by whatever name they use.. its still the same brush.. theres been a world wide trend for these people infiltrating government departments and trying to influence the culture of the government depatments to this "animal libber" way of thinking.. the RSPCA is basically an animal libber organization. and PETA are animal libbers
> 
> Its been stated by one of these DECC blokes in public he would prefer that no one was allowed to keep native animals at all.. and thats what their aim is.. It has nothing to do with animal welfare or keeping animals properly etc They cant take our licences off us BUT they have used this TROJAN HORSE caging requirment draft to try and force people out of the hobby by making the requirements of keeping our animals financially prohibitive by increasing the enclosue sizes to ridiculous levels.. so if introduced it will start to acheive their aim of forcing people out of the hobby and keeping reptiles by this trojan horse method called the DECC caging mandatory requirement.. even though ALL the actual experts in these fields that have REAL experience with REPTILES say the caging sizes mandatory rules are unecessary and detrimental to the animals.. all this was ignored by the government pushing for its introduction because they dont give a stuff about the animals at all and its all to stop us keeping them. why have the real experts been ignored? why have the DECC gone ito secret mode and are trying to hide what they are doing? Its a scam and because the reptile community are not organised and we fight between ourselves we are seen as an "easy mark" for these animal libbers to divide and conquer.. we need to put our differences aside and we need to join forces into one body (NRKA) and get some good legal representation to take these people on in court. And get some media exposure to shame the ministers and governement enough to stomp on this cage size rubbish.
> 
> ...


Nail hit on the melon, and by forcing the big breeders out first (and these are the people they will inspect ) the process will hasten. The Hobbyist will then inherit the Earth...


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 17, 2011)

As Jamie said, they want to legislate to fix a problem that does not exist. It would not solve it if it did exist – you only have to look at the extent of the underground keeping system to realise that. Look at what comes out of the woodwork when they have an amnesty. It will, however, impact on honest keepers who have their collection legally and above board. And ONLY on them. Once it is in, you will NOT get rid of it. Once it is in, it will readily and easily be subject to change at the whim of whoever holds political power on the day.

They clearly don’t want to make the legislation flexible in any degree. They do not want to cater for the individual keeper’s experience and discretion. Why? Ramsayi hit the nail on the head. Who is going to do the inspecting and enforcing? Field officers of the Department. People who are responsible for enforcing department regulations on all native fauna, who get minimal training, yet are expected to know all the rules about all the different animals and to apply them appropriately and equitably. How the hell can they? This is why they don’t want flexibility. It allows them to enforce with the ‘tick box’ approach – checklist in one hand and tape measure in the other. Forget about appropriate and equitable and don’t even think about mitigating circumstances.

The reality is that no matter how good the legislation, it can never fully cater for all individual circumstances. The inspectors required to make decisions about enforcement will almost invariably be doing so in ignorance of what the hobby involves. But if they get it wrong, does the Department ever say “Oh, we are sorry, we got that wrong” ? No! Never! They knowing pursue cases where they are in the wrong. That is part of their culture. Close ranks and protect your own! Otherwise the general public might see chinks the armour and stop bending to their will. I am sure there are plenty of examples people could cite. They use the basic bully boy tactic of government vs individual. “If you want to takes us on, at the very least we are going to make you bleed from the wallet as we have the resources that you don’t”. It does happen now. And it most certainly will happen if new legislation is enacted.

What happens now has serious repercussions for the future.

Blue


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 17, 2011)

"As Jamie said, they want to legislate to fix a problem that does not exist. It would not solve it if it did exist – you only have to look at the extent of the underground keeping system to realise that. Look at what comes out of the woodwork when they have an amnesty. It will, however, impact on honest keepers who have their collection legally and above board. And ONLY on them. Once it is in, you will NOT get rid of it. Once it is in, it will readily and easily be subject to change at the whim of whoever holds political power on the day."

Well said Mike. One of the several elephants in the room is the acknowlegement by the Department that the proposed enclosure sizes will again be changed "within 5 years" to standardise them with those required by the Department of Industry and Investment for commercial exhibitors. All of these interdepartmental discussions, which will affect keepers and the animals in their care, have taken place behind closed doors, with the clear intention of out-manoeuvring any challenges by those who object to mindless Government intervention in their lives.

Mike (Bluetongue1) and I both know how these things work - we were prime movers in the introduction of the keeping system in WA. Over quite a few years we consulted with DEC (then CALM) to build a system that, if not described as a racehorse, at least something that was competitive... We left it with them for 12 months, and bugger me... they gave us back a lame camel! That was 8 years ago now, and the thing still hasn't been seen by a vet!

That's a worry.

Jamie


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## Colin (Aug 17, 2011)

Cockney_Red said:


> Nail hit on the melon, and by forcing the big breeders out first (and these are the people they will inspect ) the process will hasten. The Hobbyist will then inherit the Earth...



the thing is I really dont think they will force big breeders and large scale hobbyists out of the hobby.. they may force them underground though.. and I think thats a step backwards. Im sure we all want to abide by FAIR rules and regulations and agree there must be some there for the keeping of native fauna. But I feel we are over regulated and getting more and more overregulated by government when theres really no need in my opinion..


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## Chris1 (Aug 17, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> It's the entire proposal,lizards included.
> Thing is if they legislate then they can run a tape over your enclosure and if it's short by even a cm then you are breaking the law,regardless of the length of the reptile occupying that enclosure.As an example my line of bhp's do not grow as large as a lot of other lines,but bad luck one size fits all.
> 
> If you don't keep water bowls in enclosures all the time,you are breaking the law.I only offer water to my desert species twice a week therefore I would be breaking the law,forget the fact that reptiles will not drink from a bowl that has had water in it for more than a day or two.Keep stale water in the enclosure that the occupants will not drink,fine,according to the powers that be,not a problem.
> ...



ahh, i see where youre coming from, so my palmerston jungles will need monster cages even tho theyre only going to grow to 5 foot max cos the athertons get bigger? the water bowls thing is ridiculous, (what about shinglebacks who dont like humidity?) and i guess the deeper you delve the more ridiculous it gets,..im all for some kind of rules regarding sizing


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## abnrmal91 (Aug 17, 2011)

I am sorry but they can go shove it were the sun doesn't shine. I keep my snake in enclosures large enough for the size snake. Given that my Bredli only uses about 5% of it's enclosure, just sits in it's hide all the time. Most people look after their snake fair better then they probably need. If the DECCW (or what ever they changed the name to) want to do something to help reptiles. Go protect the endangered species. Captive snakes don't matter really. Its the ones in the wild they should worry about. Kindly sod off


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## Ramsayi (Aug 17, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> I am sorry but they can go shove it were the sun doesn't shine. I keep my snake in enclosures large enough for the size snake. Given that my Bredli only uses about 5% of it's enclosure, just sits in it's hide all the time. Most people look after their snake fair better then they probably need. If the DECCW (or what ever they changed the name to) want to do something to help reptiles. Go protect the endangered species. Captive snakes don't matter really. Its the ones in the wild they should worry about. Kindly sod off



Don't get me started on that.The NPWS,DECC or whatever it is they call themselves these days would provide a much better service looking after and improving the national parks and occupants therein than interfering with what are essentially pets so far removed from the wild that it isn't even funny.By the way,are you still allowed to keep those dirty great white cockatoos in those pathetically small wire cages that are around half a meter square?


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## wokka (Aug 17, 2011)

If the regulations are applied there will be:
animals which should be in small cages forced to be kept in large cages; 
animal kept in high humidity (due to 24/7 water), which would do better in lower humidity;
animals which need a fixed temperature (such as sick animals which dont thermoregulate) will be forced to be kept with a temperature gradient.
How will this benefit these animals?
We will go from a situation where most keepers keep their animals in the best individual circumstances, to keepers having to "tick the boxes" at the expense of the animal.



Ramsayi said:


> By the way,are you still allowed to keep those dirty great white cockatoos in those pathetically small wire cages that are around half a meter square?


Yes thats fine, or you can get a permit to shoot them, just as long as you dont export them out of the country!


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 17, 2011)

"By the way,are you still allowed to keep those dirty great white cockatoos in those pathetically small wire cages that are around half a meter square?"

Yes you are, and there's nothing sadder than a highly intelligent and social bird, which would be in the company of others of its kind 24/7 from hatch till death, being confined to a prison like this for its entire life, often only being fed sunflower seed, and getting no attention at all.

But those reptile keepers... they're the neglectful, dodgy ones...

Says something about priorities I think...

Jamie


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## Colin (Aug 17, 2011)

Jamie and other Expert Advisory Group members.. I've noticed that that last DECC caging draft obtained under the freedom of information act has been posted here and elsewhere but as far as I can see the letters between the DECC and DPI (or whatever its now called) were not posted up? 

Are we allowed to post these up seeing they were obtained under the freedom of information act? Im sure people would find the content most interesting.. I can easily PDF them and post these up tomorrow if its allowed?


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 17, 2011)

It is certainly allowed Col - anything obtained under FOI is considered to be in the public domain.

Are you referring to where DECCW got a smack from DII for not wording the draft so that it ensured successful enforcement prospects? DII is the prime mover in all of this - they have been coaching the dudes at DECCW (or whatever it's called now) to get tough on herp keepers for some years now.

Go for it!

Jamie


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## abnrmal91 (Aug 17, 2011)

Colin said:


> Jamie and other Expert Advisory Group members.. I've noticed that that last DECC caging draft obtained under the freedom of information act has been posted here and elsewhere but as far as I can see the letters between the DECC and DPI (or whatever its now called) were not posted up?
> 
> Are we allowed to post these up seeing they were obtained under the freedom of information act? Im sure people would find the content most interesting.. I can easily PDF them and post these up tomorrow if its allowed?


 
It would be good to see if we could. Cheers Daniel


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## Colin (Aug 17, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It is certainly allowed Col - anything obtained under FOI is considered to be in the public domain.
> 
> Are you referring to where DECCW got a smack from DII for not wording the draft so that it ensured successful enforcement prospects? DII is the prime mover in all of this - they have been coaching the dudes at DECCW (or whatever it's called now) to get tough on herp keepers for some years now. Go for it!
> 
> Jamie



yes mate I am.. thats the one and will PDF it tomorrow (watch this space)


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## killimike (Aug 17, 2011)

I will be watching and waiting Colin


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 17, 2011)

I find it rather interesting that you have a department that wants to produce enforceable requirements on a hobby they know absolutely nothing about. Why would you want to do that? They had to have input from experts who do know to get started. Yet now those same people are completely excluded. Yet the drafting process and changes continue. On what basis are they making their decisions now? Where are they getting their input? I shudder to think. Why is the ship still sailing when there is no-one competent on board to steer it? It does not take an Einstein to recognise from the above that animal welfare has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with this push for legislation. If they had animal welfare at heart, they would be taking on board ALL that the experts have to offer because they are the people who know how to meet the requirements of these animals. Is that happening???

Categorising animals into A, B, C & D or Hatchling & Adult does not reflect the reality of the range of differences found in animals (and that’s ignoring the glaring errors of animals clearly in wrong categories). It does not allow for the individuality and variation that reptiles display. When you start looking at a widespread species, size in particular often varies with location. This is particularly so with most of the python species and the differences can be very marked, particularly in the larger species. Their attempt to lump species into boxes just does not cut the mustard. Anybody with a first-hand knowledge of nature or a basic understanding of genetics, knows about biological variation. Why is that those entrusted with looking after the welfare of our native fauna do not seem to understand this basic biologial fact??? 

In relation to Fay’s OP, I would like to know what happened to the concept of Juvenile. Add to that the behavioural differences that occur within a species. Each snake is an individual and something like cage size depends upon behavioural readiness rather than size or age. Natural behavioural repertoires and space have been mentioned in posts already. Add to this the differing rates of development of individual reptiles which directly influence behaviour and therefore enclosure requirements, and you obviously need a degree of flexibility to meet the needs of individual reptiles. This system does NOT take into account that need. The way it is geared, you will be forced to compromise the welfare of a section of your animals if you are to meet the requirements they seek to impose on you. Bottom line… if you had to have a system, you wouldn’t want this one!!!

Blue


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## Colin (Aug 18, 2011)

exactly right mike. what is driving the forced introduction of these mandatory rules? maybe it is the agenda of a few animal liberationist types that are pushing it.

and to respond to your second and third paragraph I quote my own earlier post


Colin said:


> Its the keepers knowledge of their OWN animals that are the best to determine the cage sizes and husbandry methods. this is why we keep them.. because we love them and want to look after them well and see them flourish in captivity.. and and cage size draft should be a SUGGESTED size only for the individual keeper to determine for their OWN individual animals.


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## Snake_Whisperer (Aug 18, 2011)

In regards to Fay's original post, exactly. Not only have I had to downsize on many occasions, it worked magnificently in getting troublesome animals to eat, as well as calm down. Shock of the century.... they simply did better in small tubs! This is not a treatice for people to go hog wild cramming 15Kg olives into 52L tubs, merely an illustration that dowsizing is sometimes NECESSARY!

Per the above, Fay's and countless others' experience, and the work of Jamie et. al. , it defies logic, that mandatory cage sizes would be forced through despite the recommendations shared by some of the most experienced keepers in Australian herpetoculture. If logic is defied, there can be only one reason...politics.



Colin said:


> exactly right mike. what is driving the forced introduction of these mandatory rules? maybe it is the agenda of a few animal liberationist types that are pushing it.
> 
> and to respond to your second and third paragraph I quote my own earlier post


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 18, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> In regards to Fay's original post, exactly. Not only have I had to downsize on many occasions, it worked magnificently in getting troublesome animals to eat, as well as calm down. Shock of the century.... they simply did better in small tubs! This is not a treatice for people to go hog wild cramming 15Kg olives into 52L tubs, merely an illustration that dowsizing is sometimes NECESSARY!
> 
> Per the above, Fay's and countless others' experience, and the work of Jamie et. al. , it defies logic, that mandatory cage sizes would be forced through despite the recommendations shared by some of the most experienced keepers in Australian herpetoculture. If logic is defied, there can be only one reason...politics.



Yup SW, that about sums it up. You are 100% correct with regard to the calming effect smaller enclosures have on some snakes. And of course, none of the experienced keepers engaged in this process with OEH are suggesting that 15kg Olives should be kept in 52 litre tubs! The keeping of these animals is essentially a balancing act between what we provide and what our animals need - there cannot be a "one size fits all" approach brought into law simply for bureaucratic convenience, and to make it easier for them to slam reptile keepers even harder.

That's what this is all about.

Jamie


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 18, 2011)

It is sad. You would imagine if there was a perceived problem that education should be the first option rather than enforcement. Provide the guidance without the “do it or else” hanging over your head. This would allow them to provide realistic guidelines per species and sizes, on a species by species basis. So much more useful and appropriate than the current lumping into categories! It would also allow for keeper discretion. This way you would not be penalising the multitudes for the sake of the supposed few offenders. 

Education is in the best interests of the animals and would be welcomed by most, I am sure. So why not take the educational approach first and see if it works? It would be a lot less troublesome for the department and a lot less costly I will warrant. Why are they so hell bent on the least preferred and most difficult option of enforcement? Why do they not want to try education?...

Blu


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## Colin (Aug 18, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> It is certainly allowed Col - anything obtained under FOI is considered to be in the public domain.
> 
> Are you referring to where DECCW got a smack from DII for not wording the draft so that it ensured successful enforcement prospects? DII is the prime mover in all of this - they have been coaching the dudes at DECCW (or whatever it's called now) to get tough on herp keepers for some years now.
> 
> ...




here we are.. these are the letters that precedded the draft that I received that were obtained under the freedon of information act. The DECC letter 3 that you refer to in your above quote had to be made into three parts to upload the full 15 pages. 

note in letter one its suggested the RSPCA (aren't they now run by the animal liberationists?) and "animal welfare groups (I read animal liberation groups) strongly support the inclusion of MANDATORY cage sizes in the draft.

I look forward to your comments jamie..

download the PDF files and have a good read.. distribute to your reptile keeping friends too..


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## Ramsayi (Aug 18, 2011)

I wonder what they will do if they get their way and we all take a visit to Hurstville and drop off a heap of animals because our enclosures don't quite measure up?

I love a couple of lines in the first PDF,
*Satisfy a widespread public expectation that good animal welfare is promoted by the government.
Last time I looked I wasn't running a zoo and access to my collection to the public is not and will not ever occur.

*Educate reptile keepers about basic housing and husbandry requirements.
I think most of us know more about what is required than the people regulating the current laws.Hell they can't properly even ID reptiles that they ballot out.

*Bring captive reptiles into line with other captive animals (eg animals in petshops,birds)
I keep thinking of those dirty great white cockys living their entire lives in those pissy little wire cages.

*Bring NSW into line with other states such as Victoria and Qld that have codes of practice for private keeping of reptiles.
Anyone in Vic or Qld care to comment on mandatory minimum cage sizes in those states or are they guidelines only?


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## Bushkaboo (Aug 18, 2011)

Maybe write the Minister a letter addressing your concerns and ask for a reply back within a certain amount of time? It doesn't hurt to ask how their decisions were made or how they are going to be enforced. Another alternative is to just never answer a knock at the door.


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## Ramsayi (Aug 18, 2011)

Bushkaboo said:


> Maybe write the Minister a letter addressing your concerns and ask for a reply back within a certain amount of time? It doesn't hurt to ask how their decisions were made or how they are going to be enforced. Another alternative is to just never answer a knock at the door.



Unfortunately they have as much power if not more than the police do in regard to entering a premises.


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## abnrmal91 (Aug 18, 2011)

Bushkaboo said:


> Maybe write the Minister a letter


Maybe a letter bomb would work. Lol joking. 

They clearly know nothing about reptiles. What they are propesing is impractical. There is no evidence that this code of practice is required. I am all for the welfare of animal to be protect them from cruelty. (note that RSPCA has still done nothing about the neglected snakes in QLD). This document seems the be a detriment to there welfare. If we are constrained to comply with certain temp requirements irrespective if the animal is sick. 

Are the DECCW going to come out and measure our snakes? By all means they can measure my crazy Bredli. Just wish I had an eastern brown lol. 

If this goes ahead I can see that alot of people would go underground.


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## Snowman (Aug 18, 2011)

I can't open the last pdf. Anyone else having same problem?


_it opens for me but heres another upload_


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## Snake_Whisperer (Aug 18, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> I wonder what they will do if they get their way and we all take a visit to Hurstville and drop off a heap of animals because our enclosures don't quite measure up?
> 
> I love a couple of lines in the first PDF,
> *Satisfy a widespread public expectation that good animal welfare is promoted by the government.
> ...



Happy to oblige! In Qld, we have a code of practice that ismeant as your guideline to keeping captive reptiles. It does contain enclosure standards but, as they should be, they are RECOMMENDED sizes. The onus is on the keeper to provided the proper standards for his/her animals. There is even provision for live feeding in our COP. I have heard through very reliable channels that QLD may be headed for a similar "mandatory caging" system, but given the example the other day in Townsville, I'm not too stressed about it.

Code of Practice


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## Sock Puppet (Aug 18, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> Are the DECCW going to come out and measure our snakes? By all means they can measure my crazy Bredli. Just wish I had an eastern brown.


They won't be measuring animals at all. If your Bredl's is 12 months old, or older, it will need an enclosure of minimum dimensions outlined in the code for an adult Bredl's, doesn't matter how big the actual animal is. Don't forget those minimum sizes will apparently increase in 5 years, as well.


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## Snowman (Aug 18, 2011)

Snowman said:


> I can't open the last pdf. Anyone else having same problem?
> 
> 
> _it opens for me but heres another upload_



Cheers that works for me. Must be some bug on my pc  
Thanks for posting this info too!


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## Waterrat (Aug 18, 2011)

Snake_Whisperer said:


> I have heard through very reliable channels that QLD may be headed for a similar "mandatory caging" system, but given the example the other day in Townsville, I'm not too stressed about it.



It is highly unlikely. Following the floods and cyclone, DERM's funding is at its worse ever. They are even reducing their vehicle pool.


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## Pythoninfinite (Aug 18, 2011)

DECCW or OEH or whatever, here in NSW, suggests that they are coming into line with Vic & Qld, but this is misleading. Both those states have non-enforceable GUIDELINES and do not mandate minimum standards.

There is a plan to introduce mandatory standards Australia-wide, which is interesting... they can get together to constrain keepers in this manner, but the individual states can't even begin to get their acts together when it comes to nationwide licensing and wildlife management standards, which is supposedly their major brief.

Jamie


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## Waterrat (Aug 18, 2011)

Pardon me for budding in as a Queenslander but this issue is of concern to all reptile keepers.

Looking back over the years, the NARKA (or something like that) have not achieved much at all. I am not saying they haven't done much but the results are poor at least to say.
You people need a new army with a new general. Form an organisation that will have a web site where (unlike on forums) you can publish names, phone numbers and email addresses of those individuals who are instrumental in this cage size nonsense, the complex licensing and restrictions on Interstate Trade. A web side where we all can make donations for the cause. The general and his 2ICs must be people with no commercial interest, with nothing to loose and with plenty of vigor.
One or two names keep popping up prominently, this person is not the "driver" (the animal libs are), he is the "administrator" and he must go. That has to be the step number one - take out their general. That can be achieved by relentless bombardment of emails and phone calls, not only to him but to his cronies and superiors as well, including the Minister and MPs. Don't underestimate the people's power, they knocked down the Berlin wall, so what is one sick Department in comparison?

Michael


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## Colin (Aug 18, 2011)

I'd like to see a National RKA formed to fight this issue and any others that arise on behalf of all reptile keepers Australia wide. Probably based in NSW as it looks like this will be the battleground to start. Some of the people in the EAG thats been on this issue from the start would be a good start for some representatives. They know whats happened so far and are not coming in "fresh" and we need people aware of the problems and are up to speed on it. 
I'd also like to see a good solicitor retained for the NRKA. memberships from us can fund the group as well as donations.


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## Moreliavridis (Aug 18, 2011)

Well count me in for this organisation! Cause i am sick to death of the bureaucrats who know absolutely nothing about a law they are trying to inforce and dont even have animal welfare in mind! 
Some one needs to make a short documentary showing how detrimental some of the proposed laws can be to certain individual animals and distribute it to these stupid pollies!
I think a protest is in order on the door step of these departments! We cant sit back and do nothing.


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## Mister_Snakes (Aug 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> Pardon me for budding in as a Queenslander but this issue is of concern to all reptile keepers.
> 
> Looking back over the years, the NARKA (or something like that) have not achieved much at all. I am not saying they haven't done much but the results are poor at least to say.
> You people need a new army with a new general. Form an organisation that will have a web site where (unlike on forums) you can publish names, phone numbers and email addresses of those individuals who are instrumental in this cage size nonsense, the complex licensing and restrictions on Interstate Trade. A web side where we all can make donations for the cause. The general and his 2ICs must be people with no commercial interest, with nothing to loose and with plenty of vigor.
> ...



Sounds great, not something I could do, but I'll be right here to support such a movement.

I'm sure that if we have a well organised body representing the interest of herpers we will be taken far more seriously than we currently are complaining amongst ourselves!

So any ideas who would put their hand up to start such a group?


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## mcbuggsy (Aug 19, 2011)

abnrmal91 said:


> I am sorry but they can go shove it were the sun doesn't shine. I keep my snake in enclosures large enough for the size snake. Given that my Bredli only uses about 5% of it's enclosure, just sits in it's hide all the time. Most people look after their snake fair better then they probably need. If the DECCW (or what ever they changed the name to) want to do something to help reptiles. Go protect the endangered species. Captive snakes don't matter really. Its the ones in the wild they should worry about. Kindly sod off



That brings up an interesting point that Michael Duncan (president of the AHS) brought to my attention earlier in the year......
Once an animal becomes a "pet" or a legally held captive, it should not fall under the control of NPWS/DECCWE or whatever they are called this week. They cease to be a wild animal and should fall under the control of RSPCA...(who we all know care for "all creatures great and small"..except reptiles and amphibians)
sorry about the rant....
I am 56 years old and have been keeping reptiles since I was 10 (still have 2 of those), and I think I know what size "habitats" my animals are most comfortable in... As I said previously, look at the displays at Taronga and other institutions and you will see that they don't comply with the proposals either.Luckily they won't have to I guess, but bad luck for us. (and I don't like plastic tubs too, I like to see my animals)


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## Colin (Aug 19, 2011)

> RSPCA...(who we all know care for "all creatures great and small"..except reptiles and amphibians)



I was under the assumption the RSPCA are now controlled by animal liberationist/welfare type groups who are the very ones wanting to stop us keeping reptiles. 

P.E.T.A. is a similar animal liberationist type organisation overseas 
PETA Kills Animals | PetaKillsAnimals.com

I used to be a supporter of the RSPCA but not anymore...


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## Waterrat (Aug 19, 2011)

Colin said:


> I used to be a supporter of the RSPCA but not anymore...



The same thing here. When they knock on my door I give them nothing and I tell them why.

On the other hand, I like PETA, they're my kind of people. *P*eople *E*ating *T*asty *A*nimals.


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## Bluetongue1 (Aug 20, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> ….*Bring NSW into line with other states such as Victoria and Qld that have codes of practice for private keeping of reptiles.
> Anyone in Vic or Qld care to comment on mandatory minimum cage sizes in those states or are they guidelines only?


 
A pathetic argument! Whichever way you look at it.

Blue


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## FAY (Sep 10, 2011)

Update...

I have put my macs back into their hatchie slytherin racks and they are eating again like little champs. They really should be in their tanks BUT they would not EAT.


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