# Reptile Emotions Debate



## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Now there are definitely at least two totally differing opinions on this topic

It would be great to get well thought out answers to this

As far as I can find there is zero scientific proof that they dont have emotions
There is also zero scientific proof that they do have emotions

So that leaves us with anecdotal and circumstantial evidence both of which are admissible in a court of law but possibly are not admissible in reptile forums

I suppose another simple way would be to say Yes or No
But a good debate is always fun and if you find me being the Devils Advocate on either side its ok
It will hopefully encourage good healthy discussion


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## Kimberlyann (May 12, 2011)

I vote yes!! Definantly...


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## hrafna (May 12, 2011)

i will respect anyone's opinion on this as there is no solid proof, but in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion? if we are talking love, happiness and saddness then probably not those emotions, but a different variety of emotions than what you or i can feel!


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

This is one I always have difficulty with. I only have a few pythons but they all do seem to have different "personalities". I am particularly fond of my Bredli and if there is any one from my collection I would get out to show newbies it's him. However I don't think it's emotion. I think he just tolerates me better than the others. I don't think they have the brain capacity or the need for emotions. Instinct serves them perfectly well in the wild and speaking from an evolutionary perspective I don't see why they would need them


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## elogov (May 12, 2011)

hrafna said:


> i will respect anyone's opinion on this as there is no solid proof, but in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion? if we are talking love, happiness and saddness then probably not those emotions, but a different variety of emotions than what you or i can feel!


 
love it couldn't agree more!


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## dihsmaj (May 12, 2011)

saximus said:


> This is one I always have difficulty with. I only have a few pythons but they all do seem to have different "personalities". I am particularly fond of my Bredli and if there is any one from my collection I would get out to show newbies it's him. However I don't think it's emotion. I think he just tolerates me better than the others. I don't think they have the brain capacity or the need for emotions. Instinct serves them perfectly well in the wild and speaking from an evolutionary perspective I don't see why they would need them


 Apparently Garter Snakes live with others?


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

hrafna said:


> i will respect anyone's opinion on this as there is no solid proof, but in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion? if we are talking love, happiness and saddness then probably not those emotions, but a different variety of emotions than what you or i can feel!


 I guess this requires an agreed upon definition of emotion before it can go further...
I would have put those things in the instinct thing rather than emotion


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

One argument for emotions..

The case where a shingleback will stay with a partner sometimes for days after the partner has been killed on the road, even to the point of nudging its dead partner to encourage it to move.

Is this emotion, or just the drive to breed?

Also, shinglebacks are unlikely to breed with another partner for a few years after losing an existing partner.

Could this also be classed as grieving?

I find there are many attributes that are similar to humans that it is difficult to think that they don't have emotions.

One study has actually shown that on occasions, a shingleback in the wild will leave its existing partner if that partner becomes too heavily infested with parasites. Kind of like a marriage breaking up because one person lets their appearance and or health deteriorate. lol


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## hrafna (May 12, 2011)

saximus said:


> I guess this requires an agreed upon definition of emotion before it can go further...
> I would have put those things in the instinct thing rather than emotion


 yes a definition would be needed. i think that hunting is an instinct, being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion, so yes it all does come down to what we as an individual would define it all as!



splat868 said:


> One argument for emotions..
> 
> The case where a shingleback will stay with a partner sometimes for days after the partner has been killed on the road, even to the point of nudging its dead partner to encourage it to move.
> 
> ...


 your last point could also be looked at as a breeding partner finding something wrong with a partner and thus no longer a suitable mate? which is an instinctual response from many animals.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Excellent replies so far
So can we attempt to clarify what we will call emotions
Then what we will call instinct


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> Excellent replies so far
> So can we attempt to clarify what we will call emotions
> Then what we will call instinct


 Until the inevitable downturn 
I would call things like affection, happiness, sadness etc. emotion. Anything that would serve no useful purpose for a wild animal...


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

hrafna said:


> yes a definition would be needed. i think that hunting is an instinct, being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion, so yes it all does come down to what we as an individual would define it all as!
> 
> 
> *your last point could also be looked at as a breeding partner finding something wrong with a partner and thus no longer a suitable mate? which is an instinctual response from many animals.*




I agree, but is that not also the base reason that Humans move on in the same situation?

When you think about it, All animals including humans are genetically pre-programmed to propogate the species.

Why does a woman(or Man) cheat on their Partner? and why do people still find other people attractive when they are in a relationship?


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## pharskie (May 12, 2011)

i would say without a doubt yes, my male and female coastals are in love. im sure of it. if something spooks my female, she quickly find the male she is kept with and after a breif coil and interaction they curl up together and go to sleep, BUT always, and i mean always with his head above and near hers. like he is in guard mode. it really is nice to seee them like this. ALSO, i can up my hand in the enclosure to do anything from a water change, move stuff around ext. and they dont care in the slightest, they will check to see whats goin on then back to sleep or basking, but if anyone else goes in the enclosure and im not there or at a distance where they cant taste me in the air, they his and s up there necks and get quite angry. Who needs a scientific answer when you have your own eyes


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## hrafna (May 12, 2011)

i feel that emotion is anything that can impact a beings feelings, it is an instinct for an animal to act defense but it is emotion that puts that animal in that "mood"


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> As far as I can find there is zero scientific proof that they dont have emotions
> There is also zero scientific proof that they do have emotions


 
The structure of the brain of a reptile certainly doesn't definitively demonstrate that snakes do not have "emotions," but it does in fact make this scenario likely.

Considering that none of the studies undertaken have yielded any results that suggest that reptiles show "emotion" (emotional attachment to keepers etc.) is evidence within itself in my opinion.



hrafna said:


> in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion?



You cannot draw parallels between hunger, pain, stress and emotion.


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## Cockney_Red (May 12, 2011)

Of course they do, one of my Olives is still not speaking to me for forgetting her Birthday.....


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

pharskie said:


> Who needs a scientific answer when you have your own eyes


 Anyone who wants an unbiased, rational explanation of the world. Don't take offence (that isn't how it was meant) but we, as irrational, emotional creatures tend to label what we don't understand in ways that we do because it is more comfortable


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Wolves and other pack animals seem to show affection for other pack members?? 
Would this have any useful purpose??


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## hrafna (May 12, 2011)

splat868 said:


> [/B]
> 
> I agree, but is that not also the base reason that Humans move on in the same situation?
> 
> ...


to a degree yes, we still have instincts that force our hands with certain choices, but as people we can't sense if someone is diabetic (for example) and i don't think many people would leave their "mate" because of it.


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

I would say that is because wolves have evolved as communal animals (kind of like us) and so needed to evolve a way for individuals to help themselves by adding to the community in a constructive manner (i.e. what we call emotion)


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## hrafna (May 12, 2011)

saximus said:


> Anyone who wants an unbiased, rational explanation of the world. Don't take offence (that isn't how it was meant) but we, as irrational, emotional creatures tend to label what we don't understand in ways that we do because it is more comfortable


 stolen from the net about emotion in animals. 
There is no scientific consensus on *emotion in animals*, that is, what emotions certain species of animals, including humans, feel. The debate concerns primarily mammals and birds, although emotions have also been postulated for other vertebrates and even for some invertebrates.
Animal lovers, scientists, philosophers, and others who interact with animals, have suggested answers but the core question has proven difficult to answer since animals cannot speak of their experience. Society recognizes that animals can feel pain, as demonstrated by the criminalization of animal cruelty. Animal expressions of apparent pleasure are ambiguous as to whether this is emotion, or simply innate responses, perhaps for approval or other hard-wired cues. The ambiguity is a source of controversy as there is no certainty which views, if any, reflect reality. That said, extreme behaviourists would say that human "feeling" is also merely a hard-wired response to external stimuli.


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

Wow that's an awesome explanation! Can I have the link? Although if science hasn't come up with the answers yet, I feel we are out of our league trying to justify our positions on this debate


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Not at all Saximus
We are definitely not out of our league here
Scientists still argue about this so they must really have no way of measuring it??
So who better to discus this topic than reptile keepers??


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## Kyro (May 12, 2011)

hrafna said:


> yes a definition would be needed. i think that hunting is an instinct, being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion, so yes it all does come down to what we as an individual would define it all as!
> 
> 
> your last point could also be looked at as a breeding partner finding something wrong with a partner and thus no longer a suitable mate? which is an instinctual response from many animals.



When talking about reptiles I think stress is a reaction to certain circumstances, not an emotion. 
Feeling hungry is instinct for survival as is hunting to get rid of the hunger.


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## Tristan (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> Wolves and other pack animals seem to show affection for other pack members??
> Would this have any useful purpose??


 
yes that's all related to the pecking order of the pack, and gaining favor etc with the higher ups, so this can lead to a discussion about wolves being self aware enough to be motivated by self gain 

as for a definition on emotion i think that's going to be hard, at the end of the day what you feel be it emotion or instinct is biochemical reactions,and neurons firing in the brain, depending on what area of the brain is being stimulated will yield different emotions. 

baser instincts from the amygdala such as eat, sleep, reproduce etc these instincts are also associated with emotion as the emotion motivates you to act, snakes lack a prefrontal cortex so lack the ability for deeper more complex instincts/emotion but they do have a good capacity for learning such as the ability to learn a regular feeding pattern.

so I'm generally of the opinion that most reptiles can feel/express emotion on a basic level but i by no means expect them to be able to express complex things such as empathy and jealousy etc


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

It could be argued that some emotions are needed for survival.

The abilty to recognise danger produces fear, which then produces adrenalyn.

Adrenalyn enables the animal to have that extra burst of speed for fight or flight.

Fear is classed as an emtion in humans, and yet it is used for the same thing that it is used for in animals, including reptiles.


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## Cockney_Red (May 12, 2011)

Instinct and emotion, completely different, IMO...I have yet to witness emotion in my worms...


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## mje772003 (May 12, 2011)

I think they do have emotions but it is a bond that develops over time


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## fugawi (May 12, 2011)

When I stroke my beardies behind the head they slowly close their eyes after a few strokes as if "Yeah, thats goooooood". I would call that an emotional response.


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

fugawi said:


> When I stroke my beardies behind the head they slowly close their eyes after a few strokes as if "Yeah, thats goooooood". I would call that an emotional response.


 Perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. Don't understand the action so assign something to it that we can understand


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

i think they can feel them, when i seperate my two waters, they seem to get sad or lonely (might be stress) but if they get stressed hen they must feel something


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

So if a human closes its eyes and snuggles into your hand when you stroke it that is evidence of an emotion???
But if a beardie etc does it we cannot also call that evidence of emotion???


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

Haha yep


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

i love to snuggle with my eyes closed, but my wife tells me im an emotionless a$$. 

longqi i love all your threads, if not informaive they are always interesting. i must visit next time im in bali


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## Defective (May 12, 2011)

i definitely vote yes for emotion, based purely on the fact that i have recently witnessed jealousy behaviour in my beardie. i got keiko and she curled up and went to sleep in the palm of my hand, once i've put her back yoda won't come near me and goes and sulks like a jealous little child. BUT if i handle him first he refuses to go back into his enclosure and will jump onto my shirt and dig his claws into my chest. he loathes water and loves a cuddle in bed with mum (me)


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## fugawi (May 12, 2011)

Scratch a dogs tummy and tell me it isn't enjoying it........a dog will deliberately lay down to have its belly rubbed, a cat will push its cheek against your hand etc


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

Maybe I could agree there is a fine line between instinct and some form of base emotion, but the people who believe their reptiles feel love and jealousy need to get of the herbs.


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## Defective (May 12, 2011)

steve1 you haven't seen or experienced the way my dragon acts so don't tell me that animals don't get jealous


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

Where is Jamie when we need him?


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

Should put a pole on this thread, too.

Yes
No
I don't know

Personally, I'd click IDK, as I haven't owned anything long enough to really observe anything that in depth. The two that I handle are indifferent to being handled, and don't rush back into their enclosure when they have the chance, so they can develop a sense of security.

I know they can be fearful, obviously this is a survival instinct, but it's an emotion, is it not?


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## GeckPhotographer (May 12, 2011)

I think if I were to say humans had emotions than I would have to say also that reptiles have emotions. If I were to say humans do not emotions I would thus say reptiles do not have emotions. Not to mention I will upset people by defining instinct and emotion as synonymous in meaning, yet separated by human bias and want to be above animals. 

This is not as simple as it seems. All human responses are controlled by some for of chemical reaction in the brain. All reptile response are similarly controlled by reactions in the brain. If we separate instinct and emotion based on these reactions we are really separating emotion and instinct on what a response is elicited by. So to run from a predator is an instinct. To fear irrationally or when not faced with something perceived as a threat is an emotion. It is as far as I see impossible to see if a reptile can fear irrationally or when not faced with something it perceives as a threat. Really I look at this the same way I look at humans separating themselves as 'not animals'. 

The only thing I can fully say with surety is that if humans define emotions based on a threshold where only responses 'this complex' or 'this powerful' are emotions than never will humans be able to prove any animal as our emotional equal without being able to experience that animal from its perspective. Not to mention we may not even be able to include some individuals of our own species through this point of view.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Some great replies coming in here
Devils advocate has not really been required as yet so I wont need to say anything at this point


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## Darkhorse (May 12, 2011)

Lambert said:


> i definitely vote yes for emotion, based purely on the fact that i have recently witnessed jealousy behaviour in my beardie. i got keiko and she curled up and went to sleep in the palm of my hand, once i've put her back yoda won't come near me and goes and sulks like a jealous little child. BUT if i handle him first he refuses to go back into his enclosure and will jump onto my shirt and dig his claws into my chest. he loathes water and loves a cuddle in bed with mum (me)



Hey Lambert... couldn't your beardie just be acting in self preservation (instinct) and not want to go near you after you have been holding your snake because you smell of snake which he could construe as a predator? Couldn't he be trying to avoid a bath as he would not be bathed in the wild and therefore may instinctually avoid it to prevent death by drowning? And couldn't he just see you in your bed as an opportunity to warm himself?

Being human and loving our pets it's hard not to be anthropomorphic!


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

Lambert said:


> based purely on the fact that i have recently witnessed jealousy behaviour in my beardie. i got keiko and she curled up and went to sleep in the palm of my hand, once i've put her back yoda won't come near me and goes and sulks like a jealous little child.



The fact that you assume this is jealousy clearly demonstrates that you are not thinking logically, and jump to the conclusion that satisfies you - that your animals have a deep love for you.

Have you not thought that perhaps your dragon simply has a natural aversion to the scent of your python? How on Earth would you logically justify your conclusion that he is jealous of your python?

People that are missing something and need to delude themselves into believing that their animals care for them and become jealous over them should keep something other than reptiles, or perhaps work on their relationships with humans.


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

Lambert said:


> steve1 you haven't seen or experienced the way my dragon acts so don't tell me that animals don't get jealous


 
Have you ever considered that maybe your dragon can pick up the scent of your Stimmie.

Your Dragon is not jealous, how can it be when it doesn't even have the ability to percieve jealousy. You percieve the dragon is jealous because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy that your reptiles would get jealous over who is getting more attention from you. This is the whole problem with this particular debate, HUMAN EMOTION interfering with logic.

DOH ditto to Melissa.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Devils Advocate time

Even though Lambert cannot definitively prove that his beardie gets jealous, can anyone prove that it doesnt??


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> How on Earth would you logically justify your conclusion that he is jealous of your python?


 
I lol'd hard.

In regards to this:


> delude themselves into believing that their animals care for them


I disagree, if you're talking about animals in general. Reptiles I can't speak for, but I can say I'm inclined to agree. But I believe dogs develop a strong bond with their owners.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 12, 2011)

> People that are missing something and need to delude themselves into believing that their animals care for them and become jealous over them should keep something other than reptiles, or perhaps work on their relationships with humans.



That is rude, just because he may think his animal is jealous of him? Whether this is logical or not? If soemone cares for their reptiles well, cares about there reptiles and does not come on line spitting venom at another keeper than why should you say they are a bad reptile keeper simply because your perception they have said one illogical thing? 
This I think is a true show of what is not logical, does this then mean you have yourself been hypocritical and should not keep reptiles? (While this question was rhetorical I will answer in my opinion it does not and you have the same right to keep your reptiles as long as you look after them as you should give Lambert.)


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

KR I think a lot of people would agree about dogs and cats etc. but this debate is more concerned with reptiles so I tend to agree with that statement


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

saximus said:


> KR I think a lot of people would agree about dogs and cats etc. but this debate is more concerned with reptiles so I tend to agree with that statement


 
Yeah, fair enough. I said I was partial to agree, if it was aimed at reptiles.

I haven't owned any long enough to decide for myself, though. Our male jungle, Georgie, he's happy no matter where he is or who's holding him, so I don't think he has any emotions toward humans, lol.

Better edit your post, lambert will be all over it.


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I disagree, if you're talking about animals in general. Reptiles I can't speak for, but I can say I'm inclined to agree.



Let me correct myself: I was referring to snakes in particular. I shall be more careful with my wording. Apologies for the confusion.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

That's an awesome DP. Is it an MD? Obviously he/she is fairly calm around humans.


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## Kyro (May 12, 2011)

I don't think comparing reptiles to dog's, cat's etc is a good comparison at all. They are mammals & I think it's fairly obvious that they are far more intelligent than your average bearded dragon:lol:

beaten by several on the ball people with that point


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Let me correct myself: I was referring to snakes in particular. I shall be more careful with my wording. Apologies for the confusion.


 
No need to apologise, I was just checking.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 12, 2011)

Is grammar the most important part of this discussion? Unless something legitimately does not make sense I think it most preferable that the debate stays off the grammar topic, and I am sure at least a few others would agree.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

There are some really thought provoking things coming out here
So please try to keep it gentle or they might close the thread

Everyone has different opinions and thats very very cool


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

now back on topic, my olive and my coastal both will leave my wife and come to me if we are sitting on the grass outside... i handle them 80% of the time and so when i go walks with them they tend to stay close to me...
also my boyd dragon recently lost two others from his enclosure and now seems to sulk. nothing has changed except i have removed two boyds that where in his enclosure for the past 6months. this shows signs of lonilyness?


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> That is rude, just because he may think his animal is jealous of him? Whether this is logical or not? If soemone cares for their reptiles well, cares about there reptiles and does not come on line spitting venom at another keeper than why should you say they are a bad reptile keeper simply because your perception they have said one illogical thing?
> This I think is a true show of what is not logical, does this then mean you have yourself been hypocritical and should not keep reptiles? (While this question was rhetorical I will answer in my opinion it does not and you have the same right to keep your reptiles as long as you look after them as you should give Lambert.)


 
I did not intend to come across as rude or nasty.

I suggested that people that need to get something in return from their animals, such as love and attachment should keep animals that have the ability to exhibit this behaviour - the keeper would then get what they need from their animals and would likely be more satisfied.

Also, please refrain from putting words in my mouth - at no point did I call anyone a "bad reptile keeper," or even anything similar.

You have totally misunderstood my post. I was in no way being hypocritical either, and I am indeed suited to keeping reptiles - I am content with the fact that my reptiles would likely not notice if they never came in contact with me again as long as they were being fed still. They would not miss me, mourn the loss or perhaps even notice my absence. Therefore, reptiles suit me perfectly. If I needed love from animals, I'd get a dog.


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Lmao.
> 
> That's an awesome DP. Is it an MD? Obviously he/she is fairly calm around humans.




Coastal  LOVES ME!!!! you know as in an emotion     doesnt like others touching its face but likes to rest its face on my fingers


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

Just a thought, how many of the posters on here have actually done any reading on the cognitive abilities of reptiles? Even taken a quick look at the structure of a snake's brain? After reading the thread, I assume that not many have. I strongly suggest some light reading into the subject - you might find it interesting and informative.

Without having done any research, I feel many of the opinions here are purely based on an illogical perception of very simple behaviours that are exhibited by relatively simple animals.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

^^^^^ Good point about the structure of a reptiles brain

But can a reptiles brain be measured by our present knowledge of reptiles??


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## Renenet (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> Just a thought, how many of the posters on here have actually done any reading on the cognitive abilities of reptiles? Even taken a quick look at the structure of a snake's brain?



You mentioned some studies that had been done earlier on emotion (or otherwise) in reptiles. I'd love to read them (and maybe others would too). Do you have links or titles?

Thanks, 
Renenet


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

I don't see why it couldn't. We understand what parts of the brain are generally responsible for what actions and can see whether the parts required for what some refer to as emotion are existent


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^^^ Good point about the structure of a reptiles brain
> 
> But can a reptiles brain be measured by our present knowledge of reptiles??


 
Not entirely but adequately I believe. Whilst there is much that remains unknown to us, the structures and functions of the brain have been widely researched.

Logically, I feel the best we can do in order to understand our animals is to take what little we do definitely know, and go by that rather than making baseless assumptions about the behaviours in question.

Over the years, I have seen my reptiles do many things. Whilst I have not been able to understand the reasons for all, I have come up with many possible explanations for each that are more rational and likely than the possibility that they feel love or an attachment to me as their keeper.


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## sookie (May 12, 2011)

I can't stay outta this.My beardie is very clever,he has problem solved his way to the kitchen table a few times.He has helped himself to the delights there upon,he knows what to look for.he knows that certain behaviour will not be tolerated and he knows when he's in trouble.he knows the 2 dogs won't hurt him and he enjoys their company,because he seeks them out.He lets me know what he feels lke for dinner with gestures,because he knows what container holds what bugs.And i know when he's is peeved at me because he digs his claws into his wall or branch and won't budge,or if i have done a really bad thing,he won't look at me.When i come home with a ton of shopping and the dogs are jumping about,some one else is in their tank jumping about waiting for whatever treat i bought him home too.Move him from HIS tank and you will see an enormous hissy fit,complete with throwing himself on the ground.Soon as he comes out and onto me he comes up for kisses,he has his fav snuggle spots on me,bed and on the passenger seat in the car.No one else can turn him into 'pancake lizard' when giving him loves,only for me.I raised him inside my left bra cup,then a t-shirt pocket ans now he is my constant companion.
Please don't rain on my parade,this is how i like to veiw our relationship.......and i will never change.:lol:


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

saximus said:


> I don't see why it couldn't. We understand what parts of the brain are generally responsible for what actions and can see whether the parts required for what some refer to as emotion are existent


 
It would be interesting (if possible) to put an array of reptiles in an MRI machine, and stimulate them in different ways, food, fear (obviously try to stimulate it in a minimal way, where the animal's not gunna have a heart attack, lol) etc. You could then do the same for various mammals. 

It would also be interesting to measure the brain function of reptiles that have been housed together for life, especially ones that are known to enjoy the company of another (I think it's the blue tongue?) in a situation where both are put in an MRI machine, and one was taken away.

I guess it would be hard to measure them without them being still.


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

Renenet said:


> You mentioned some studies that had been done earlier on emotion (or otherwise) in reptiles. I'd love to read them (and maybe others would too). Do you have links or titles?
> 
> Thanks,
> Renenet


 
I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.

Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.

I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.
> 
> I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity


 
I'm keen. So keen, in fact, that my uni assignments are getting pushed to the "later on" basket, due to me craving more info on snakes.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> It would be interesting (if possible) to put an array of reptiles in an MRI machine, and stimulate them in different ways, food, fear (obviously try to stimulate it in a minimal way, where the animal's not gunna have a heart attack, lol) etc. You could then do the same for various mammals.
> 
> It would also be interesting to measure the brain function of reptiles that have been housed together for life, especially ones that are known to enjoy the company of another (I think it's the blue tongue?) in a situation where both are put in an MRI machine, and one was taken away.
> 
> I guess it would be hard to measure them without them being still.



Perhaps also interesting to try and read a reptiles brain when that reptile had been treated as part of a human family rather than a reptile that had had little or no human interaction???


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> Perhaps also interesting to try and read a reptiles brain when that reptile had been treated as part of a human family rather than a reptile that had had little or no human interaction???


 
That would be excellent, too.


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> Perhaps also interesting to try and read a reptiles brain when that reptile had been treated as part of a human family rather than a reptile that had had little or no human interaction???


 
Quite true and admittedly, I have not come across any such studies. There are many on captive animals, but the level of human interaction was not often discussed in detail as I recall.

However, as I feel that this behaviour is not possible in snakes, I do not think such studies would yield results different than those already published. A level of familiarity may be observed but in terms of love and attachment, I think it would prove futile.


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

PM me as well please. very keen on doing a bit or research.



xxMelissaxx said:


> Quite true and admittedly, I have not come across any such studies. There are many on captive animals, but the level of human interaction was not often discussed in detail as I recall.
> 
> However, as I feel that this behaviour is not possible in snakes, I do not think such studies would yield results different than those already published. A level of familiarity may be observed but in terms of love and attachment, I think it would prove futile.



how would it show emotions such as love etc if it doesnt have the chance to build it with the human interaction?? that is kind of the main way it would show the emotion dont you think?


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> However, as I feel that this behaviour is not possible in snakes, I do not think such studies would yield results different than those already published.


 
I think it's naive to discount the _possibility _of a discovery being made, whether it's likely or not. If we all felt like that, cancer and AIDS would probably be known as the work of demons and impossible to cure, yet we still try.


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> I think it's naive to discount the _possibility _of a discovery being made, whether it's likely or not. If we all felt like that, cancer and AIDS would probably be known as the work of demons and impossible to cure, yet we still try.


 
I am basing my opinions on all the knowledge and fact we have available at present. There have been many studies conducted on the cognitive abilities of reptiles, and all evidence points to the fact that snakes do not have the ability to form meaningful relationships with their keepers.

I will believe this until the day that something pops up that gives me a reason to think otherwise - I don't think that's naive at all.

Also, not intending to be rude, however, your comparison with cancer and AIDS is completely and utterly irrelevant.



redlittlejim said:


> how would it show emotions such as love etc if it doesnt have the chance to build it with the human interaction?? that is kind of the main way it would show the emotion dont you think?


 
The studies are primarily focused on the cognitive abilities of reptiles and similar. If an animal is not able to learn anything at a complex enough level, then it is unable to form an attachment or a love for a keeper.


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

a reptiles instinct is based on survival if they were to realize you are the key to their survival then they will trust you possibly even attach themselves to you. Do you think this is the "love" or "emotions" people think they are recieving? 
i really had never seen a lizard/snake or reptile of any species show any type of affection that wasn't a learned trait or an act of survival until i started to have favourites... as i said about olive and coastal. both seem to show affection


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

Sookie your last sentence says it all.

"Please don't rain on my parade,this is how i like to veiw our relationship.......and i will never change.:lol: "


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> a reptiles instinct is based on survival if they were to realize you are the key to their survival then they will trust you possibly even attach themselves to you. Do you think this is the "love" or "emotions" people think they are recieving?



I can see how that would make sense, however, I do not believe that snakes are able to come to this conclusion in the first place, and I certainly don't think they have the ability to act towards it.


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

Melissa, Do you believe that Reptiles can recognise an individual/keeper.


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

I know you asked Melissa but I think they would get to recognise smells so could possibly recognise you from your smell


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Melissa, Do you believe that Reptiles can recognise an individual/keeper.


 
I am unsure, but I am not discounting it. Perhaps on a certain level they recognise recurring stimuli that is unique to the keeper? This does not necessarily mean that they recognise the keeper as a person, or the key to their survival etc.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> I am basing my opinions on all *the knowledge and fact we have available at present*.
> 
> I will believe this until the day that something pops up that gives me a reason to think otherwise - I don't think that's naive at all.
> 
> ...


 I highlighted the first part of your post.

AIDS and Cancer have nothing to do with the debate, but the point I was making is that you should never stop questioning, and experimenting, because even if it is unlikely, you never know unless you have a crack. So the comment wasn't irrelevant, it was just misconstrued. 

I have also said that I'm inclined to agree with you, because I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise. But until every option has been exhausted, no one can definitively come to a conclusion.

Please don't think I'm being rude.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Wasnt all human instinct once based on survival??


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

If they can recognise recurring stimuly are they able to associate it with the source?


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## saximus (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> Wasnt all human instinct once based on survival??


 
In a way I'm inclined to believe it still is. All of our morals come from what is required for communal groups to work. A major contributor to that is our ability for empathy which I think helps us form emotions. Or I could just be talking crap...


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

would be interesting to see if the recognise keepers etc... in my mind, i have no doubt that they do. as i can be showing my snakes to others and they will actively try and move back to me. or if place them on the grass they will come to me every single time rather than my wife. however, whether this is a affection thing or they can just smell me as there main handler and therefore they feel more secure with me instead of an unkknown i am unsure. may try a few test with y wife wearing my clothes etc  and i wear hers and see if they go to her or me.... 
so i am sure they can recognise individuals (or atleast someone who they are regularly with) but i am totally unusure to the emotion side.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> would be interesting to see if the recognise keepers etc... in my mind, i have no doubt that they do. as i can be showing my snakes to others and they will actively try and move back to me. or if place them on the grass they will come to me every single time rather than my wife. however, whether this is a affection thing or they can just smell me as there main handler and therefore they feel more secure with me instead of an unkknown i am unsure. may try a few test with y wife wearing my clothes etc  and i wear hers and see if they go to her or me....
> so i am sure they can recognise individuals (or atleast someone who they are regularly with) but i am totally unusure to the emotion side.



Lol, just an excuse to cross dress, eh? Haha

If you do this, post results. Hold the pics, though. I'm not keen on those


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

steve1 said:


> If they can recognise recurring stimuly are they able to associate it with the source?


 
In this instance I don't think so, no - not that level of learning.

There would be quite a lot involved in that. I do not think snakes are able to connect a familiar stimuli with the source, recognise the connection and identify the image of the keeper as that source, store all this information and then be able to recall it at a later date. That's obviously a simplified and possibly inaccurate run-down of things, but you get the idea


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

consider operation cross dress for the good of APS in action tomorrow. i will do the test for 7 days in a row. twice a day. shall i post on this thread or a new thread?


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Has anyone known a reptile that would only feed from its handler??

This thread is fine redjim
but not too many pictures of cheesy grins please


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## grimbeny (May 12, 2011)

I think its a boring question. The only issue that is up for debate is what emotion means. We know animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, satisfaction, hunger, many of the things humans feel. These things have been and can be tested scientifically. We know many animals have rather good memories etc. But we know animals cant "think" in the way that we call thinking, for that you need language. So depending on where you define the borders of the term emotion decides wether you can say animals have them or not.


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## redlittlejim (May 12, 2011)

longqi said:


> Has anyone known a reptile that would only feed from its handler??
> 
> This thread is fine redjim
> but not too many pictures of cheesy grins please



how can i not do a cheesy grin when im cross dressing?


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## JoygasmPie (May 12, 2011)

To be honest, I think its unfair to compare human emotion to reptile emotion. We are social animals and need emotional attachment.
Most reptiles are solitary. It seems pointless to feel emotions such as we do, and if they did feel them they would probably end up very depressed and lonely.
But who is to say they don't feel them at all, we can't get inside their head. I'm sure there are plenty of situations that may show frustration and anger. They may even feel emotions that humans don't.


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> I am unsure, but I am not discounting it. Perhaps on a certain level they recognise recurring stimuli that is unique to the keeper? This does not necessarily mean that they recognise the keeper as a person, or the key to their survival etc.


 

Hi Melissa,

I am always looking for more studies to read on reptiles.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could PM me any info on these studies also.


On recognition of individuals,

I have one particular shingleback who will allow me to handle him as much as I like without any fuss. However as soon as I try to hand him to someone else, or someone else tries to pick him up he will defacate on them, its quite funny really.

Not sure what this means, but I have taken it as recognition of some kind.


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> In this instance I don't think so, no - not that level of learning.
> 
> There would be quite a lot involved in that. I do not think snakes are able to connect a familiar stimuli with the source, recognise the connection and identify the image of the keeper as that source, store all this information and then be able to recall it at a later date. That's obviously a simplified and possibly inaccurate run-down of things, but you get the idea


 
I'm not sure we're quite on the same track, I don't think, for example they will recognise a keepers physical appearance, but maybe associate scent,smell,taste of the keeper with certain things like food or being handled. If a snake was put in a situation where pain was inflicted by a keeper would it begin to associate that keepers scent with pain if the circumstances were continued? Whilst photographing wild Elapids I have noticed that they will often react more strongly to a particular individual, though this could simply be related to body heat.


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## zuesowns (May 12, 2011)

My opinion would be yes:

Stress:

tension: (psychology) a state of mental or *emotional* strain or suspense; "he suffered from fatigue and *emotional* tension"; "stress is a vasoconstrictor"

The reason I say stress is because i've heard that snakes get stressed from almost every herp keeper...

For snakes to go off food during summer for example would not be *instinct *as they are opportunistic feeders.


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> I think its a boring question. The only issue that is up for debate is what emotion means. We know animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, satisfaction, hunger, many of the things humans feel. These things have been and can be tested scientifically. We know many animals have rather good memories etc. But we know animals cant "think" in the way that we call thinking, for that you need language. So depending on where you define the borders of the term emotion decides wether you can say animals have them or not.


 
Some pretty generalized statements in there. To say it is a boring question is rather insulting to the many people who have put the effort in to some well considered replies.
We're not talking about animals in general, but reptiles. Please enlighten us as to how we know reptiles feel pleasure and satisfaction


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

JoygasmPie said:


> To be honest, I think its unfair to compare human emotion to reptile emotion. We are social animals and need emotional attachment.
> Most reptiles are solitary. It seems pointless to feel emotions such as we do, and if they did feel them they would probably end up very depressed and lonely.
> But who is to say they don't feel them at all, we can't get inside their head. I'm sure there are plenty of situations that may show frustration and anger. They may even feel emotions that humans don't.




This is true,

and simply illustrates that all emotions, including those of humans are based on what they need to survive and thrive in their given environment and social structure.

There are however species of skink that live in a highly social environment, including cunningham skinks.
What emotions they have, I can't comment on.

I believe though that humans have traditionally tried to place themselves as being totally apart from the animal kindom, this perception is slowly changing thankfully.

Look at the amazing discoveries that have been found in Chimps and other Primates in recent decades.
Their societies, social structures, and emotions have been shown to be very similar to our own in its basic format.
Each emotion that Humans have is born from what we as humans needed to survive, as is every other animal.


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## lizardmech (May 12, 2011)

I don't know that you can completely rule it out purely based on brain structure. There's some research into monitors that have suggested mammalian like behavior and that they can do complicated things such as count, identify people, engage in play and plan ahead.

I haven't been able to find a reliable list of brain mass to body mass ratios for reptile species anywhere though so I'm not sure if varanids just have much larger brains.

I don't think they have a good grasp of non-mammal brains in general. Crows, ravens and other corvids seemed to go unnoticed for a while, yet they are now known to be one of the most intelligent animals. As far as I can tell they were initially ignored to some degree in research just because Avian brain structure is different to mammals and was assumed to be inferior.


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

Zuesowns, "mental or emotional strain" I take that as meaning that not all stress is emotional


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## xxMelissaxx (May 12, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I'm not sure we're quite on the same track, I don't think, for example they will recognise a keepers physical appearance, but maybe associate scent,smell,taste of the keeper with certain things like food or being handled. If a snake was put in a situation where pain was inflicted by a keeper would it begin to associate that keepers scent with pain if the circumstances were continued? Whilst photographing wild Elapids I have noticed that they will often react more strongly to a particular individual, though this could simply be related to body heat.



Sorry, I misinterpreted your question.

Perhaps via repetition they could be conditioned to associate stimuli with pain as you described. I am not sure, but I definitely can't say it's impossible. I am still somewhat doubtful as to whether snakes are able to create and recall such associations though. For example, how many instances have been documented of a snake coiled around a heat bulb long enough to inflict serious burns? Or a snake repeatedly rubbing its nose raw on mesh coverings?

With the wild Elapids, they can certainly deem one individual as more of a threat than others, due to any number of reasons. Perhaps that was what was occurring? This does not indicate learning or emotion though, but is certainly interesting and a good example of one of the many aspects of these animals that we are yet to fully understand.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Been some great points and even very different views in the last couple of pages so I think so far a simple yes or no answer is probably not as valid as it was at the start of this thread??

Lizardman
great point about crows etc
And how closely related are reptiles to birds


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> I think its a boring question. The only issue that is up for debate is what emotion means. We know animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, satisfaction, hunger, many of the things humans feel. These things have been and can be tested scientifically. We know many animals have rather good memories etc. But we know animals cant "think" in the way that we call thinking, for that you need language. So depending on where you define the borders of the term emotion decides wether you can say animals have them or not.


 

What do you define as thinking?

Octopi have excellent problem resolving skills, as do Chimps, and I am sure several other animals.

Its been shown that Chimps and Pack Predators in general have specific tactics and plans when hunting, so clearly they can both Think and communicate.


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## cement (May 12, 2011)

No.

'Showing' emotion is a visible facial display.

Not an action.

The closest a reptile gets to 'showing' emotion is yawning, and even thats not because they are tired, but rather a functional action.


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## longqi (May 12, 2011)

Cement
I can show emotion by simply giving a hug??
No facial display required


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## cement (May 12, 2011)

And I can give a hug without showing emotion!

Is a threat display emotion?


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## Renenet (May 12, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity


 
Thank you, Melissa, for both the PM and the unwarranted compliment.  I have an open mind on this question of whether reptiles can feel emotions and would certainly like to check out the evidence that's out there. I don't feel like I know enough to be able to come to a conclusion.

Good point about the size of reptile brains. I've seen diagrams of snake brains. They're shockingly small and would not suggest a capacity for complex emotions. I'd imagine a turtle's or lizard's brain wouldn't be much different. Then again, while being aware of the dangers of anthropomorphising, there are plenty of anecdotal stories of reptiles - particularly of lizards for some curious reason - that appear to display a capacity for emotion. As Melissa pointed out, there are often alternative, more rational reasons for this behaviour. Still... I feel there's enough in it that the debate is not fully settled. 

I do believe there are definitely some emotions that are beyond the reach of a reptile - jealousy and love, for example. That's my opinion; others are totally entitled to theirs.

I'll have to do a lot more reading about this topic - when I have time! There's so much more to it than first meets the eye.


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## JoygasmPie (May 12, 2011)

Something people should note when making any argument regarding animals:

The Number One Rule: There are always exceptions to the rules.

We may never know all the reasons why they do what they do, what or why they feel what they feel. It may be because they just simply can.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

cement said:


> No.
> 
> 'Showing' emotion is a visible facial display.
> 
> ...


 
What? A facial display is just one way of _conveying _emotion. Just because something can't convey it, doesn't mean they don't feel it. I was going to point out that a lot of stroke victims can't display anything, but definitely feel emotions. Surely someone would point out that there's no correlation to reptiles, but the point is, just because we can't pick up on their cues, doesn't mean they aren't there.


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

@ Cement, "Is a threat display emotion?" No it's a defensive mechanism.


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## grimbeny (May 12, 2011)

splat868 said:


> What do you define as thinking?
> 
> Octopi have excellent problem resolving skills, as do Chimps, and I am sure several other animals.
> 
> Its been shown that Chimps and Pack Predators in general have specific tactics and plans when hunting, so clearly they can both Think and communicate.


 
Again a symantics debate, I would say thinking is not solving problems or processing information but a dialogoue that occurs inside the individuals head.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

steve1 said:


> No it's a defensive mechanism


 
Huh?


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## Elapidae1 (May 12, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> Huh?


 
I just edited that


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

steve1 said:


> I just edited that


 
Oh ok


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## dihsmaj (May 12, 2011)

Dogs feel emotion yet they don't show it with facial expressions.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

Plimpy said:


> Dogs feel emotion yet they don't show it with facial expressions.


 
Yeah they do, dogs have facial expressions for sure.


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## splat868 (May 12, 2011)

grimbeny said:


> Again a symantics debate, I would say thinking is not solving problems or processing information but a dialogoue that occurs inside the individuals head.


 
hmm,

Surely though if a chimp sees a delicious treat inside a puzzle, in its own way it must think to itself " I want that tasty treat, how can I get it out?"

It may not use the words that you and I do, but it is definitely thinking, and I believe it has its own dialogue.
people think that because animals can't use our form of communication, that they can't communicate and this simply is not true.

I guess this is getting a little off the topic of reptiles though, which are clearly not as mentally developed as primates.

My argument is more about symantics as you say, because as I have stated on several occasions, levels of emotion in all creatures stem from the basics of what each creature needs to survive.

I believe reptiles do show emotions, but its more a question of how far those emotions go.


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## kawasakirider (May 12, 2011)

> Again a symantics debate, I would say thinking is not solving problems or processing information but a dialogoue that occurs inside the individuals head.



Dialogue is language. You're personifying/anthromorphising the ability to think in depth. We don't know how they think, so you don't know if they have a means of dialogue or not.


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## Renenet (May 12, 2011)

splat868 said:


> There are however species of skink that live in a highly social environment, including cunningham skinks. What emotions they have, I can't comment on.



And wouldn't that be an interesting study. I seem to remember beardies are social too, though I could be completely making that up. 

Come to think of it, that's something else to look into: what we know about social structure among reptiles! If complex emotions and complex social structure are related, it would be very relevant to this topic.



lizardmech said:


> I don't know that you can completely rule it out purely based on brain structure. There's some research into monitors that have suggested mammalian like behavior and that they can do complicated things such as count, identify people, engage in play and plan ahead.



I think it's related to the size of the monitors; as I understand it, larger body means larger brain. But I take your point about not ruling it out based on brain structure. We're only just beginning to understand how our own brains work.

There's a theory I read some time ago that intelligent alien life would have to be of a certain size in order to be intelligent. I always felt a bit skeptical about that because who the heck knows what kind of evolution could occur another planet? The brain holds sway here on Earth; there's nothing to say that another mechanism for thinking couldn't develop elsewhere. But I digress.


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## cement (May 12, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> What? A facial display is just one way of _conveying _emotion. Just because something can't convey it, doesn't mean they don't feel it. , just because we can't pick up on their cues, doesn't mean they aren't there.



So if you have a brooding female python, who still actively displays shivering thermogenesis after you have taken her eggs off her, would you consider her to be mourning the loss of her clutch? What if you then found her incubating her water bowl, would she now be classed as happy?
What if you offered her a rat and she ate, and then totally forgot she ever had eggs, would you say then that she had now gotten over her trauma and was back to normal?
What sort of cues would or could we say were emotive ones?

In my humble opinion, and i mentioned this to someone else recently, most reptiles have limited intelligence, especially snakes, with even less capacity to feel emotional connections, but we don't give them credit for what sensory apparatus they do have or how they actually use that to view their world.


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## kawasakirider (May 13, 2011)

cement said:


> So if you have a brooding female python, who still actively displays shivering thermogenesis after you have taken her eggs off her, would you consider her to be mourning the loss of her clutch? What if you then found her incubating her water bowl, would she now be classed as happy?
> What if you offered her a rat and she ate, and then totally forgot she ever had eggs, would you say then that she had now gotten over her trauma and was back to normal?
> What sort of cues would or could we say were emotive ones?
> 
> In my humble opinion, and i mentioned this to someone else recently, most reptiles have limited intelligence, especially snakes, with even less capacity to feel emotional connections, but we don't give them credit for what sensory apparatus they do have or how they actually use that to view their world.


 

No, I wouldn't say that, and for you to ask me in an accusatory way is almost putting words in my mouth. My point is that we don't know if reptiles have anything close to emotions, but to say they don't because they lack facial expressions is not a decent explanation.


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## Jackrabbit (May 13, 2011)

hrafna said:


> being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion,


 
I disagree here. Stress isn't an emotion it is a sympton. If an animal is hungry it goes looking for food, the longer it can't find food it's body/system becomes stressed and it's body eventually fails to function therefore it cannot go on looking for food, collapses and dies. we have probably all seen enough documentaries on animals being followed that are injured and so can't hunt effectively and eventually die. They don't look any different except thinner from not eating.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

So far this has been a great thread
Most of you know my views on this subject so I wont bother repeating them

But now that more input has been given I would relish the possibility of comparing the brain patterns of say
one of my breeding snakes that rarely get handled
and one of my display snakes that get handled frequently and are treated as one of my family
In my opinion their 'attitudes' are very very different
Possibly their brain patterns are too??

If I present a different scenario here what is your opinion of it

If a doctor selects two patients for brain testing [my only knowledge of brain testing is from horror movies]
One is the head nurse of the testing station who has been begging for an opportunity to be involved
The second is a someone of similar appearance who was kidnapped from a jungle village by force and strapped into place for the test
Surely the results would be completely different??
I would assume that one would show anticipation, joy, elation etc etc
The other would show fear etc

So would any test to prove that reptiles can have or cannot have emotions need to use one 'pet' and one 'wild' reptile?? or multiples thereof


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## carterd (May 13, 2011)

Have not read all yet, but looking forward to it when time allows. The differents between human and animals is, we have free will, animals don't. This has got to do with emotions.


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## xxMelissaxx (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> So far this has been a great thread
> Most of you know my views on this subject so I wont bother repeating them
> 
> But now that more input has been given I would relish the possibility of comparing the brain patterns of say
> ...


 
Not really. In your example, it would not only be the willing participant that would present emotional responses. The nurse that was kidnapped would also clearly exhibit the ability to display emotion - terror, sadness, frustration, anger, loss etc.

Many more complex wild animals have clearly demonstrated emotional responses and attachment - they have this ability whether they are captives or wild so I don't feel that a researcher would "need to use one 'pet' and one 'wild.'" As I stated earlier, if the animal simply does not have the ability to learn at such a level, wild or captive makes no difference - you're still no more important to them as a keeper.


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## SYNeR (May 13, 2011)

I'm rather on the fence. I definitely think my pythons have different behaviours, and not sure if I would use the term personalities. Either way, as a lot of people do with pets, I definitely anthropomorphise them 



carterd said:


> Have not read all yet, but looking forward to it when time allows. The differents between human and animals is, we have free will, animals don't. This has got to do with emotions.



Evidence? We're just as constrained by biology as other animals. We are susceptible to systems of reward/punishment. Rewards affecting the reward centre of our brain, and the idea of punishment can induce feelings of guilt, etc. It appears basic biology and a complex brain causes deep, complex emotions to manifest themselves which at times we have trouble understanding.

Not to mention a lot of modern Psychology views the brain as an information processor. Or, to put it crudely, a kind of thermostat. We process information and notice discrepancies (I'm hungry), then we process that information and calculate the best way to remove or minimise the discrepancy (I should eat something -> need to find foot -> etc).


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

I take that point Melissa but would the actual brain pattern readings be the same or can these machines differentiate between emotions such as happy and sad???

its interesting that you used the word if in your last sentence
If the animal does not have a capability to learn I totally agree with you
But it seems that some snakes and some lizards do appear to have some capacity to learn??

Or is that just them following the leader so to speak??


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## cement (May 13, 2011)

kawasakirider said:


> No, I wouldn't say that, and for you to ask me in an accusatory way is almost putting words in my mouth. My point is that we don't know if reptiles have anything close to emotions, but to say they don't because they lack facial expressions is not a decent explanation.



Well now your anthropomorphioghkr (what ever the hell that word is) my post. How you pick up an accusatory way is beyond me. Its great that you are so keen to get across your point (however, you admit yourself that you don't have enough experience to have formed an opinion.) 
When it comes to showing emotion, it mostly comes from facial expression. I have seen drawings of monkeys with different fascial expressions for each of their emotions, it helps the zoo keepers to read the animal.
To "show no emotion" is a form of fascial expression. Its a blank look. People in court have it, as they hear their sentences being read out when they know they are guilty and have lost all control over their life. I am sure you have heard the term
'Showing no emotion'.
An emotion is not an act. I could do anything, or act out any number of nice or nasty procedures but without the facial expressions, in other words with a 'blank look' you would be wondering where my head was at.
Emotions, on the other hand, come from the heart, and without thought. This is transmitted through the face.

What I asked in those questions up there that you find so accusatory (in your brief moment of insecurity) are examples of a snake at what must be considered their most emotional time. (If they have emotions). Reproduction, protective instinct, nurturing of young.
To turn a blind eye to these questions is paramount to arguing for the sake of an argument, rather then actually being in the field and making decisions based on REAL time experience. You can sit on the computer and hypothesise, guess and be as intelligent as you like on these forums of free thinking experts, but until you have done your apprenticeship, and then some, don't discount what more experienced people have to say.
You will be very hard pressed to find anybody who deals with lots of reptiles, very often, for a long time, who will be happy to say that reptiles are emotional creatures, and there is a good reason for that.

If this explanation isn't decent enough, then bad luck. Go back to your snake collection and your wild reptile field work and in years to come when you've bred different species and dealt with hundreds of animals both wild and captive, then come back and we'll talk about reptile emotions.

Great thread Lonqgi! I can hear the cogs turning, as the young scientists scrabble for the dictionary's and smart pills. Lol!!


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## SamNabz (May 13, 2011)

cement said:


> Well now your anthropomorphioghkr (what ever the hell that word is) my post. How you pick up an accusatory way is beyond me. Its great that you are so keen to get across your point (however, you admit yourself that you don't have enough experience to have formed an opinion.)
> When it comes to showing emotion, it mostly comes from facial expression. I have seen drawings of monkeys with different fascial expressions for each of their emotions, it helps the zoo keepers to read the animal.
> To "show no emotion" is a form of fascial expression. Its a blank look. People in court have it, as they hear their sentences being read out when they know they are guilty and have lost all control over their life. I am sure you have heard the term
> 'Showing no emotion'.
> ...


 
Finally a post worth reading. Well put cement


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## xxMelissaxx (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> I take that point Melissa but would the actual brain pattern readings be the same or can these machines differentiate between emotions such as happy and sad???
> 
> its interesting that you used the word if in your last sentence
> If the animal does not have a capability to learn I totally agree with you
> ...


 
I do not think they can differentiate between "happy" and "sad" as such. They do differentiate between hungry and fed, correct and incorrect body temperatures and feeling threatened or secure though.

Would the brain pattern reading be the same? I guess that would depend on what the circumstances were at the time of the reading. There is one study that I am aware of that investigated the effects of handling on a python. The results showed that the python did, over time, become accustomed to handling (the animal did not seek it out, nor present signs of enjoyment). The animal displayed a higher level of stress during earlier handling sessions, and with time appeared to be less stressed when handled. The animal always presented with the lowest outward signs of stress within the enclosure though. The results of this study can obviously be interpreted in many ways. Becoming slowly acclimatised to something and displaying emotion/enjoyment is very different. It should be noted however, that many wild caught specimens have displayed very little outwards signs of stress when handled without ever having come in contact with humans. There are also captive specimens that appear to be unable to become acclimatised to handling.

So in response to your question, brain pattern readings may differ between an animal that has had frequent, controlled contact with humans to those of an animal with no contact. They may also differ, but with the opposite results - a WC animal may display less stress when in contact with humans than a frequently handled, captive animal. Animals are individual creatures, and frequently perceive threat and react to stimuli differently than other specimens within the same species.


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## sookie (May 13, 2011)

cold blooded = cold hearted?


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## beeman (May 13, 2011)

sookie said:


> cold blooded = cold hearted?


 
No it doesnt mean that at all, But to equait human emotive feelings to a reptile
is completely wrong as they are vastly different!


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## sookie (May 13, 2011)

This has been a heaps good thread.a lot of what has been said,i admit,is way above my head.There sure are some smart cookies out there.And I suppose to all the clever people I look like a dunce,but I see it as if you're scared of me you will try to run away from my hands,if you are not afraid of me,you trust,love me you will come to my hands with willingness.of your own free will.

Like I said I guess im somewhat of a simpleton in some ways.


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## saximus (May 13, 2011)

sookie said:


> ...I see it as if you're scared of me you will try to run away from my hands,if you are not afraid of me,you trust,love me you will come to my hands with willingness.of your own free will.


 You almost got it right. Leave out just about the whole second half and you will get what we are trying to convey


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## longirostris (May 13, 2011)

An interesting thread Longqi, with some diametrically opposed views. If you don't mind I would like to contribute.

My understanding is that the one quality/behaviour/advantage, call it what you will, that distinguishes us, humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, is not necessarily the size of our brain, but rather what we do with it. At this point in time, I am not aware of any other species on the planet that has the capacity for abstract thought. 

Again I believe there are 3 types of "responses to environmental stimuli" that we call learning. The first is instinct, the second is conditioned, and the third is cognitive.

All life on this planet has the capacity to and does respond to the first, instinct. There are a growing group of species that can and do respond to the second, conditioned learning, (Pavlov's dog demonstration). Members of the third group are much harder to find. Obviously humans have the capacity to learn cognitively, but what other species can cognitively think its way through a problem. Some will argue that some dolphin and whale species as well as certain apes have the ability to cognitively (think) learn to problem solve. I believe they respond to environmental stimuli. 

What places us at the top of the tree is quite simple really, it is our ability to look at something and ask ourselves WHY? That is abstract thought. To look for answers to questions we dream up ourselves. Why are we here? How did the universe get started. How far away is Andromeda. I am pretty sure there are not any apes or dolphins asking themselves these questions.

The crux of this discussion is what constitutes emotions. As far as I am concerned emotions are feelings, feelings are irrational abstract thoughts. So I do not believe that any animals other then humans feel emotion? 

I can already hear the flamers responding with, what nonsense or worse still. I am bracing for the "My dog feels fear, it shakes when I yell at it"'comment. Conditioned response, learned. "My cat rubs her face on my leg to get a tickle", again conditioned response. I actually have dragons that run up to the front of the enclosure when I come into the room, again conditioned response, they have learned to associate me with food and respond accordingly 

The arguement then is when an animal in the wild turns and runs from another animal or indeed from us, is this process the manifestation of fear. We interpret the animals behaviour as fear. Does the animal understand the concept of fear, no? Then this is instinct or at best conditioned learning. Because it is not an irrational thought process or feeling. 

In my view emotions are feelings and therefor abstract thoughts.


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## sookie (May 13, 2011)

What part saximus?The part after trusting me.?


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## Snakewoman (May 13, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.
> 
> I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity



I'm also very interested in this material, its rather difficult to find, and what I have found on it has been simplistic, and lacking in information.


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## xxMelissaxx (May 13, 2011)

Tahlia said:


> I'm also very interested in this material, its rather difficult to find, and what I have found on it has been simplistic, and lacking in information.



I work with someone who currently also works at the Australian Venom Research Unit, so he has access to a lot of good material. I'm at work again today however, but I'll try and dig something up and see if I can get it into a PM for those that have asked later tonight..


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

44.44% plays 44.44%
At the present moment the game is a tie
I personally dont think either side is winning in the debate [but I suppose that is open to debate]

That is a really good thing as everyone has widely differing opinions but this thread has brought out some excellent replies without too much bickering
Thanks to all of you as you have obviously put time and thought into your replies

Great big thanks to whoever put the poll up


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## saximus (May 13, 2011)

It was the secret ninja mods again. They're sneaky. I'm impressed a topic like this has stayed relatively on track for ten pages.



sookie said:


> What part saximus?The part after trusting me.?


Basically, yes


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## Australis (May 13, 2011)

sookie said:


> .I raised him inside my left bra cup,then a t-shirt pocket ans now he is my constant companion.




Wow.. i always thought the beardie breast feeding comments were jokes.



:|


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## Jackrabbit (May 13, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> I think if I were to say humans had emotions than I would have to say also that reptiles have emotions. If I were to say humans do not emotions I would thus say reptiles do not have emotions. Not to mention I will upset people by defining instinct and emotion as synonymous in meaning, yet separated by human bias and want to be above animals.


 
So how do you explain the absense of any learnings when humans are born?

When a snake is born it already knows everything it needs to know to survive, a human needs to be shown EVERYTHING.

A snake knows when it is in danger. We have to learn that something is not good for us whatever it might be. I believe reptiles at least show no emotion but act simply on instinct.

As for cats and dogs since they are mammals like us they have the ability to learn things and so can develop what we might call an emotional attachment. Show me a video of a snake that has learnt something new to their baser instincts. Cobras swaying to music in India doesn't count.

How does a snake show fear when it strikes at you even though it knows it can't eat you, or through the glass of its enclosure. It is displaying territorial threats and will do that as many times as needed until it thinks it has warded the threat off. In the wild a snake turns and runs from a bigger opponent not because it is scared of it but because it knows it has been bested by a superior animal, that is the way of the jungle. It isn't an emotion. It simply moves on to find an area it can control.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

> How does a snake show fear when it strikes at you even though it knows it can't eat you, or through the glass of its enclosure. It is displaying territorial threats and will do that as many times as needed until it thinks it has warded the threat off. In the wild a snake turns and runs from a bigger opponent not because it is scared of it but because it knows it has been bested by a superior animal, that is the way of the jungle. It isn't an emotion. It simply moves on to find an area it can control.[unquote]
> 
> Most people will have seen one idiot or another chasing big reticulated pythons, anacondas etc through the jungle on various TV shows
> Those snakes invariably flee until grabbed or held
> ...


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## Cockney_Red (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> Wasnt all human instinct once based on survival??


 
Mine still is...


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## Elapidae1 (May 13, 2011)

@ Longirostris, RE cognitive thought, I'm not sure where I remember it from but some primates and maybe birds have been found to use tools for hunting/foraging. Wouldn't this require cognitive thought?

Jackrabbit. humans exhibit instinctive behaviour when born with a feeding response.


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## fugawi (May 13, 2011)

I think the question should be "What is emotion" because I think that instinct vs emotion vs learned experience is wrong. I believe that emotion is the combination of both these things plus more, environmental stimuli, various senses etc. A newborn baby cries instinctively to get parental attention ie; hungry, change me, sick etc, but as they grow they will cry because they know mum will come, learned behaviour. If mum doesn't come, emotions like loneliness, sadness etc, if she does come, happiness etc.
I know that herps are different to mammals and have decreased brain capacity but this just means decreased emotional capacity, not zero. For instance, a friend has a W/C Beardie and at first it would instinctively flare up and due to it being cornered it would defend itself. After a few months, when you reached in to grab it, it wouldn't move, no flaring etc. I must conclude that it has learned it will not be harmed. Therefore it is suppressing its baser instincts of fight or flight when a perceived large human predator is near but when it is taken outside it seems very watchful when it sees or hears birds close by. Therefore humans = Ok, birds = potential predators. This means they have the capacity to learn. A beardie usually enjoys being stroked under the chin. Instinct would be to run or flare, learned experience is humans will not harm me. A beardie sometimes will lift its head and close both eyes when being stroked. Under the chin is a vunerable place for a beardie and closing its eyes shows trust when touching a vulnerable part and lifting its head is allowing better access, therefore showing it wants you to stroke it. This behaviour is against all instinct, it has learned to trust you and shows emotional response.


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## splat868 (May 13, 2011)

fugawi said:


> I think the question should be "What is emotion" because I think that instinct vs emotion vs learned experience is wrong. I believe that emotion is the combination of both these things plus more, environmental stimuli, various senses etc. A newborn baby cries instinctively to get parental attention ie; hungry, change me, sick etc, but as they grow they will cry because they know mum will come, learned behaviour. If mum doesn't come, emotions like loneliness, sadness etc, if she does come, happiness etc.
> I know that herps are different to mammals and have decreased brain capacity but this just means decreased emotional capacity, not zero. For instance, a friend has a W/C Beardie and at first it would instinctively flare up and due to it being cornered it would defend itself. After a few months, when you reached in to grab it, it wouldn't move, no flaring etc. I must conclude that it has learned it will not be harmed. Therefore it is suppressing its baser instincts of fight or flight when a perceived large human predator is near but when it is taken outside it seems very watchful when it sees or hears birds close by. Therefore humans = Ok, birds = potential predators. This means they have the capacity to learn. A beardie usually enjoys being stroked under the chin. Instinct would be to run or flare, learned experience is humans will not harm me. A beardie sometimes will lift its head and close both eyes when being stroked. Under the chin is a vunerable place for a beardie and closing its eyes shows trust when touching a vulnerable part and lifting its head is allowing better access, therefore showing it wants you to stroke it. This behaviour is against all instinct, it has learned to trust you and shows emotional response.


 
This is exactly right,

these are the basic human emotions.


fear
joy
love
sadness
surprise
anger
Im sure many people on here could argue that their reptiles have displayed all or most of these.

Certainly fear and anger are very common.

Joy, surprise, sadness.

If a reptile is excited when a keeper comes close thinking that it is going to be fed, could this not be classed as happiness? - joy?

What do they mean by surprise? being startled- depend on what sort of surprise we are referring to I guess.

Sadness- surely sadness is related to depression- if an animal, including a reptile is kept in a sterile boring environment, it gets no stimulation, and can become listless and depressed.
all creatures require stimuli- reptiles do to, their mental state will suffer without it.

That just leaves love, and brings me back to the example of the shingleback who stays by its dead partner. who can say if this is love or just the urge to mate?


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## cement (May 13, 2011)

longirostris said:


> The crux of this discussion is what constitutes emotions. As far as I am concerned emotions are feelings, feelings are irrational abstract thoughts.



This is my understanding as well.
To take it a bit further...

All life on this planet, if you consider everything together and no single unit of life separate, including man, has only one principle to obey. To survive.
How each separate unit(species), achieves this is the wonderful world of biologists and scientists.
This is not to say that separate units won't survive, in fact it is the ability to change with environmental changes that ensures survival. Lack of the ability to change or adapt will become extinction for that unit. Dinosaurs for example.

But when you look at the big picture (really big), and you see all life together, all different forms/species/physical energies all together we can understand how variation ensures survival. Survival of LIFE! Not just survival of man kind or reptiles but just life itself.

Pain and pleasure are the keys here. For all life forms. Pleasure is derived to guide the unit towards life. Pain is derived to guide the unit away from death.

We can break this down to separate species and see that sunbaking can be a pleasurable thing for a cold reptile. Eating can be pleasurable too, but these are just fulfilling needs. Why do you think sex is so pleasurable? :lol: 

Most variations of life don't need emotions to survive.
And to go one step further, I would say emotions are in fact, a liability. :shock:


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

Splat
Although some may say that they have seen emotions in their reptiles how can they prove it?
Is anecdotal evidence enough to over ride scientific 'facts' that reptiles cannot have emotions because of the make up of their brains??

Devils Advocate is a great position

Cement
The number of suicides certainly points towards emotions probably being a liability in many cases


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## fugawi (May 13, 2011)

I think some of the more scientific minded people are overthinking the question a little, concentrating of brain size and design. At this stage we still don't know the hows, whys or wheres about any critters brains, let alone a humans. We do know that a brain is not just a computer that thinks in 1 or 0 but is far more complex.

Just food for thought.


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## hrafna (May 13, 2011)

both instinct and emotion are impacted by external stimuli correct? is a human saying i have emotions but animals have instinct, just a way for us to differentiate ourselves from other animals? is what we see as instinct a base form of emotion? all i know is that at the end of the day we can never really prove it.


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## Cockney_Red (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> Splat
> Although some may say that they have seen emotions in their reptiles how can they prove it?
> Is anecdotal evidence enough to over ride scientific 'facts' that reptiles cannot have emotions because of the make up of their brains??
> 
> ...


 
Longqi, I luv your style, gotta be a bit of Pom in you....fine exponent of the subtle wind up...


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## splat868 (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> Splat
> Although some may say that they have seen emotions in their reptiles how can they prove it?
> Is anecdotal evidence enough to over ride scientific 'facts' that reptiles cannot have emotions because of the make up of their brains??
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I agree.

But, the real question is what emotions are we referring to.

Reptiles by classification do show most of the behaviours in my previous posts that are classed as human emotions.

But, do they show love is the big question for me.

You can break that down to further questions.

Do they show love within their own species?

Do they show love for Humans?

My argument has been all along that I believe that all animals show the emotions that they need to survive.

anger, fear, excitment, depression.

All of these things are natural to most species. 
As said by others on this thread as well, emotions, combined with instincts is what drives the survivability of the species.
Many emotions can determine whether an individual animal gets to pass on its genes to the next generation by the way it interacts with its environement, threats and possible mates.

Love is a big question, but then what is love- its basic form is the need to proliferate the species, at least that is the main reason humans and animals are attracted to each other.

I do believe that reptiles are capable of recognition, and of knowing that the hand that feeds probably isnt going to present danger.
love for its keeper, I am undecided on.


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## redlittlejim (May 13, 2011)

Best debAte ever. My head hurts


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## fugawi (May 13, 2011)

Instincts could possibly be considered an emotional response. An animal does not say "I am food for this predator, therefore I will feed him with my body", they decide to use their survival instincts. Would they not be scared to die, an emotional response? Not purely instinctive, not purely emotional. I think there is a crossover here.


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## Kurto (May 13, 2011)

I went to think about an intelligent response, but then I realized it's Friday and I have a life!!!


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## fugawi (May 13, 2011)

As I said earlier, reptiles possibly have a reduced emotional response. Their idea of love would be different to our idea.


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## Cockney_Red (May 13, 2011)

fugawi said:


> As I said earlier, reptiles possibly have a reduced emotional response. Their idea of love would be different to our idea.


 
They would have no"emotion" of " love "...just an " instinct " to procreate...


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

Kurto said:


> I went to think about an intelligent response, but then I realized it's Friday and I have a life!!!



Actually also Friday 13th
I wonder if Freddy is watching


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## junglelover01 (May 13, 2011)

i vote yes for sure....maybe not love/happiness like was mentioned before but fear and stress.... they're definately emotions. They maybe primal and instinctive but they're emotions all the same.


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## hrafna (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> Actually also Friday 13th
> I wonder if Freddy is watching


 i vote yes!


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## splat868 (May 13, 2011)

Kurto said:


> I went to think about an intelligent response, but then I realized it's Friday and I have a life!!!


 

Lmao!

It is a really tough debate!

As yet, I haven't seen the scientific study, but would also want to ask the scientists what they deem as emotion in their study.

I think it really does come down to what emotions we are talking about, because humans are acredited with so many, and yet most animals exhibit the same things that we deem to be emotions in humans.


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## fugawi (May 13, 2011)

Cockney.....A Bobtail Skink will stay with its mate long after its mate has been squished. Is this love, maybe a reduced form, a kinda liking of the association perhaps. Pure instinct would have it just leave immediately, thinking can't breed, can't eat it, can't help protect with numbers, therefore get food and self protect in hiding.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 13, 2011)

As a lot of people are saying- Define emotions first. I think this is important to the Qstn asked.

I would have to say reptiles have no emotions & that everything that we see & perceive it to be emotions, is more just a reaction to touch,smell,sound etc creating an emotional looking response.

A snake is probably content when it feeds, or sometimes even lucky, but this is more of response than emotion.
A lizard or snake may react when stroked, but I reckon it is just responding to nerves or a calm feeling.

I define emotions as love or sadness, feeling down or the likes. When the prey gets away from the snake or lizard i don't think they feel anything accept S--t I have to try to catch another one if I am to survive. I guees they have a good feeling when they have sex, but this is just a habit of reproduction. 
I am sure they don't love us anyway, they might put up with us, but not love.

Anyway thats my 2 bobs worth of Bull.

Chers
Ian.


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## ianinoz (May 13, 2011)

From how I've seen Lizzy behave, I think Lizzy definately displays emotions.

I'm sure Lizzy displays happiness when he's found a really big juicy roach, bug or spider or a nice food treat on his treat lid. He even seems to show off by getting very frisky.

Lizzy looks like he's in lizard paradise when he's on "his" transformer.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 13, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> From how I've seen Lizzy behave, I think Lizzy definately displays emotons.
> 
> I'm sure Lizzy displays happiness when he's found a really big juicy roach, bug or spider or a nice food treat on his treat lid. He even seems to show off by getting very frisky.



I think that you will find this is a feeding response not an emotion of happiness.

To give another example, I was pretty much given a 2.5 yr old Scrub Python(2.5m length) some time ago that had not had much if any handling.
So you can imagine that he was a bit stroppy. It took me a few months but I did get him to settle down very well to the piont where I could sit with him on my lap & scracth his head if he was in the mood & even swim with him in the pool. Yah & I have pics to prove it.

But all this came with a lot of patience & a lot of bites, allthough the bites got less intent towards the end. All I was doing though was getting the snake used to me & the handling. I will guarantee that he did not love me, he did love his food & comfort & at any time I had handled him the wrong way or did the wrong thing, he would certianly let me know.
But this is not emotions, it is just getting used to a way of existence through perserverence.
I will guarantee if let him go he would have never come back to me because he liked a scratch or swim in the pool.

Cheers
Ian.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

We had a wild caught retic about 3metres long escape
It returned 2 back into the display a few weeks later with a few rat bites etc but still in good nick
Did it return because it liked our place?
Or because white rats are tastier?


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> We had a wild caught retic about 3metres long escape
> It returned 2 back into the display a few weeks later with a few rat bites etc but still in good nick
> Did it return because it liked our place?
> Or because white rats are tastier?



For a start I hope you were not in Aussie when this happened.
I think that it just knew where it was best fed & looked after, went walkabout but came back.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> Actually also Friday 13th
> I wonder if Freddy is watching


Yeah i am and i see all



MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> As a lot of people are saying- Define emotions first. I think this is important to the Qstn asked.
> 
> I would have to say reptiles have no emotions & that everything that we see & perceive it to be emotions, is more just a reaction to touch,smell,sound etc creating an emotional looking response.
> 
> ...



That's it a lot of people define emotions in different ways, then you also have the subtle yet significant differences between emotions and feelings


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## Elapidae1 (May 13, 2011)

People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?


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## hrafna (May 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
> it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
> Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?


 sorry but i doubt a lion could kill a healthy adult elephant, yet they do try to pick off the young from time to time!


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## longirostris (May 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> @ Longirostris, RE cognitive thought, I'm not sure where I remember it from but some primates and maybe birds have been found to use tools for hunting/foraging. Wouldn't this require cognitive thought?
> 
> Jackrabbit. humans exhibit instinctive behaviour when born with a feeding response.



Hi Steve

There are a lot of animals that use tools for gathering/hunting/extracting food. I would argue that what appears to be problem solving is actually either instinctive behaviour or learned through conditioning (watching and repeating). A really good example of what you are suggesting is Sea Otters using 2 rocks to smash open shell fish they collect. It is definately tool use, but have the Sea Otters cognitively problem solved in order to arrive at the conclusion that smashing shell fish between 2 rocks will yield food. I am not sure. I personally do not believe so. But it could be argued that the Sea Otters have effectively problem solved using a cognitive process. For me I believe it is base response (instinctive or conditionally learned) to an even more basic instinct, the need for food. 

Whether an animal can cognitively learn responses to environmental stimuli is an interesting topic in itself. As you quite rightly point out, tool use could be regarded as a cognitive response to problem solving.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 13, 2011)

longirostris said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> There are a lot of animals that use tools for gathering/hunting/extracting food. I would argue that what appears to be problem solving is actually either instinctive behaviour or learned through conditioning (watching and repeating). A really good example of what you are suggesting is Sea Otters using 2 rocks to smash open shell fish they collect. It is definately tool use, but have the Sea Otters cognitively problem solved in order to arrive at the conclusion that smashing shell fish between 2 rocks will yield food. I am not sure. I personally do not believe so. But it could be argued that the Sea Otters have effectively problem solved using a cognitive process. For me I believe it is base response (instinctive or conditionally learned) to an even more basic instinct, the need for food.
> 
> Whether an animal can cognitively learn responses to environmental stimuli is an interesting topic in itself. As you quite rightly point out, tool use could be regarded as a cognitive response to problem solving.



I use my tool all the time, but I cannot still solve problems. HA Ha


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## Elapidae1 (May 13, 2011)

hrafna said:


> sorry but i doubt a lion could kill a healthy adult elephant, yet they do try to pick off the young from time to time!


 
It doesn't matter, the point is that just because an animal can doesn't mean it's in it's best interest to do so.

Thanks longirostris, I agree that the behaviour is most likely learned, but another case that comes to mind is a bird species that drops nuts into intersections in America then when the lights turn red and the traffic stops they fly down to collect the kernels. That's impressive, how was the example set for these birds to learn this behaviour?


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> It doesn't matter, the point is that just because an animal can doesn't mean it's in it's best interest to do so.
> 
> Thanks longirostris, I agree that the behaviour is most likely learned, but another case that comes to mind is a bird species that drops nuts into intersections in America then when the lights turn red and the traffic stops they fly down to collect the kernels. That's impressive, how was the example set for these birds to learn this behaviour?



Steve don't you know, The americans taught them.


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## souldoubt (May 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
> it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
> Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?



Biologically speaking I think that emotions such as fear and physical feelings such as pain are in built in to many animals to aid their survival in the wild but that doesn't make them any less of an emotion or a physical feeling.
I would argue that if an animal feels fear a flight response is stimulated and this aids in the animals survival, just like a pain response is associated with traumatic injuries so that an animal avoids them in the future.

I hope and I'm sure you are just stimulating conversation Peter, and not actually expecting a widely accepted answer to be developed because this is a far from a black and white topic.

I do believe that reptiles have emotions without a doubt, but I don't know about the kind such as becoming attached to an owner, although I do believe they are capable of trust (I don't know if trust would be considered an emotion but the capacity for trust would show they are capable of more than they are typically thought to be), I think many other keepers would have noticed their snakes smell them if they open the enclosure and then settle down - yet remain alerted if it is someone else. 
I also believe that they are capable of feeling fear, as they will fight or dash when they feel threatened. 

Everything we say is circumstancial but I think snakes feel emotions such as fear (sorry to keep coming back to fear but its the best example) because I think those emotions will help them survive - I think that with fight or flight an element of instinct and emotion (fear) are involved.
Emotions such as boredom are usually gauged by visual signs such as stereotypic behaviour which snakes haven't been documented to show but I don't think that because you don't visually see something doesn't mean it's definitely not happening, but it is difficult to argue for.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
> it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
> Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?



There is a vast difference between a lion versus elephant and a 7metre retic versus an unarmed man
Big retics can take down tigers so a man is just childs play to them as evidenced by the dozen or so fatalities in the USA from tame retics since the late 1990s
Yet in every case I have been involved in with relocations and in every case on TV or facebook or where ever, the retic/anaconda has always tried to flee until cornered
So their survival, if it came to a brawl, is pretty much odds on in their favour???


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> There is a vast difference between a lion versus elephant and a 7metre retic versus an unarmed man
> Big retics can take down tigers so a man is just childs play to them as evidenced by the dozen or so fatalities in the USA from tame retics since the late 1990s
> Yet in every case I have been involved in with relocations and in every case on TV or facebook or where ever, the retic/anaconda has always tried to flee until cornered
> So their survival, if it came to a brawl, is pretty much odds on in their favour???



I for one totally agree with you in this case, But from what I understand most if not all the deaths due to retics are due to undue care & attention from keepers when feeding or cleaning. So a keeper being taken by his pet, I guess this is a feeding response not love, & the wild one don't love so they go away.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

I agree that those deaths were mainly through handlers errors
I only used then to show that most people are no match for even a tamed retic

That last bit of your final sentence is really the questioned part in all this
They dont love so they go away??
They have instinctive reasoning to know that humans are danger??
Or they fear humans??

This is actually quite appropriate right this minute
I have a bit under 4metres of retic that up until a couple of days ago wanted to bite my face off lying beside on the bed as I write
[Uh Oh how did that story go again??}
It has spent most of today cruising around the bedroom or in its viv
Now that I am back inside it has slid up beside me

I am not suggesting in any way shape manner or form that it 'loves me' or anything else
Because if I move quickly it reacts instantly into strike position
But if Im gentle it will let me stroke it and doesnt attempt to move away
Its viv is open with its hide and so are two dark cupboards and yet it has chosen to come up here beside the guy who has been attempting to train it into accepting handling and who it tried to bite on far too many occasions for me to feel very comfortable just now


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## KaotikJezta (May 13, 2011)

All I can say is the ability to reason has made humans ridiculously arrogant and self important. The only reason our 'emotions' are any different to the so called instinctive reactions of other animals is because we have these big brains and we can irrationally rationalise them into something special and unique. As my sculpture teacher often said the biggest step backwards in the evolution of humans was the development of language.


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## Wally (May 13, 2011)

Regular updates thanks longqi, just so we know you're still with us.


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## redlittlejim (May 13, 2011)

longqi, dont know if you remember wayyy back  but i did day one of the experiment. do you want me to post day by day results or wait for the full 7 days?


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## Renenet (May 13, 2011)

cement said:


> And to go one step further, I would say emotions are in fact, a liability. :shock:



Good point. Humans suffering depression are emotionally "out of whack" - to express it colloquially - and can be completely incapacitated by it.


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## sookie (May 13, 2011)

I remember,oh please post the results of day one.have been hoping you hadn't forgotton.This thread has hurt my head,nearly time for bed.


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## GeckPhotographer (May 13, 2011)

> Lizardman
> great point about crows etc
> And how closely related are reptiles to birds


I know longpi posted this ageeees ago. But birds are reptiles, not just close birds *are* reptiles.



> So how do you explain the absense of any learnings when humans are born?
> 
> When a snake is born it already knows everything it needs to know to survive, a human needs to be shown EVERYTHING.
> 
> ...


Firstly I think you mean absence of instincts at birth as those things that are known despite never being taught such as those known to a newborn organism are commonly defined. Then I say what do you mean by absence of instinct in newborn children? The most basic instinct a feeding response is well programmed into newborn children. Also I would argue that some part of social behavior is instinctual, (I agree the majority is learnt), the reason I would say this is through looking at people with say aspergers. These people in theory are raised the same as anyone else (of course within a margin of 'error') yet through an unknown function of the brain either in learning or instinctual concepts they are lacking. While it may be hard to rule out that this is not through learning I think it is more likely instinctual. My reasoning people with conditions like aspergers often have little trouble learning logical cognitive concepts (i.e. maths) but further can also similarly cope well with less logical concepts like paradox, infinity and quantum mechanics. While this shows they have at least some ability to view illogical concepts, these concepts cannot in my opinion link to any instinct. Social behavior on the other hand is a crucial part of human survival in the modern world and has every reason to be instinctual. I mean you yourself would agree that the response of one snake meeting another snake is instinctual? Why cannot a part of human social behavior be similar. This would mean most/many humans would have an instinctual factor to the way they socially interact. Thus it is shown both through a highly simple instinct that is shown in all organisms that feed, and a highly complex example for which I give no proof but show my reasoning, that humans do have clear instinctual factors when born. 

Now onto the second part of your response. When a snake is born does it may know every instinct it needs to survive. I agree a snake has a clear feeding response, clear life cycle routine and in fact a clear majority of common/shared behaviors that are in my mind as well as yours, instinctual. But who is too say these instincts do not change over time? And if they do change over time is that not clear evidence that individual snakes have had different traits or responses to some environmental factor which is in fact not instinctual? I mean are you saying all instinct was just there in the beginning or is instinct the process of conditioning of many generations over a long period of time resulting in the unconscious programming of the animal to a certain response to certain stimuli? Ok so we say that in these instinctual developed situations we agree instinct comes into play and a relatively set response is elicited by the snake. But what of when a new stimuli is added? A new prey item for example. Every snake is a different individual, some will be curious enough at a new prey item and eat it, others will be more cautious and stick with regular prey items? If instinct is only a strong level of conditioning over a long period of time, than what is it that differs between these snakes for the different response to occur. We can rule out conditioning as the stimuli has never been seen before. We can rule out instinct as this appears to be a result of conditioning. Therefore I believe the difference is a choice. An example of problem solving at the absolute rock bottom lowest level, but an example nonetheless. 

The next part of your response 'show you a video'. If you want me to find you a video of a snake being taught you are out of luck, I do not say a snake can be taught in this way. Conditioned yes (As vast amounts of anecdotal evidence suggests they can be), into feeding regimes, response to a constant stimuli as a constant situation. But this in no way changes that I think they do have an extremely limited and basic ability, but ability nonetheless to undergo a task based not of either instinct or conditioning. 

For the last part of your response. I believe we come down to where I define emotion far differently from you. A snake running from a large predator, or striking through the glass. Sure this is instinct. The will to survive. What we humams define in ourselves as fear, I see only as an extremely complex version of this. Even in terms of irrational fear, something we can look at later and go "I know its not going to hurt me but I just can't stand it" (I am sure you have all had someone say this about your snake (Snake referring to the cladistic branch of reptiles. (Just to stop any jokes out there))). This response from humans is really either an instinctual (snake = bad) response, a response dictated by a conscious or unconscious event relating to the circumstance or through a society based understanding (snakes generally though of as dangerous = I shall fear them period). All of these fears relate back to a will for humans to survive (or not experience pain, or similar). Thus they are to me just a complex manifestation (The complexity driven by the excess complexity of the human relative to that of a snakes), of the same traits. 
Thus and because of separate factors that I can hardly explain in my head I personally perceive instincts, conditioned behavior and cognitive ability to analyses a situation from a complex and self based point of view as different levels and complexities of what I define as emotion. 



> What places us at the top of the tree is quite simple really, it is our ability to look at something and ask ourselves WHY? That is abstract thought. To look for answers to questions we dream up ourselves. Why are we here? How did the universe get started. How far away is Andromeda. I am pretty sure there are not any apes or dolphins asking themselves these questions.


On a less serious note, how can we really know this (except for the andromeda part seeing as I doubt reptiles could know what is was regardless.) I mean seriously look at all the time a snake lies sitting in the sun, be pretty boring if nothing was going through its brain the whole time. Why should that something not be, 'Wow I wonder where I came from, I mean one day I was just like, here I am".


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## Renenet (May 13, 2011)

hrafna said:


> is a human saying i have emotions but animals have instinct, just a way for us to differentiate ourselves from other animals?



There's always that danger as well. For a long time, for various reasons, humans have not liked the thought that we, too, are animals. Look at the reaction to Darwin's Origin of Species. While we've thankfully moved on quite a bit from that today, we still like to think that our intelligence and ability to feel emotion sets us apart from the animal world.

That doesn't mean, of course, that reptiles are emotional creatures. It just means we need to eliminate any such prejudices from our considerations.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

Littleredjim
Fire away mate
Adding a bit of levity to serious debate is never a bad thing
Just one note of caution
To wear her dress is one thing
But I wouldnt advise too much make-up???

This thread is trowing up so many well constructed points that its almost unbelievable
I am really hoping for a draw


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## Renenet (May 13, 2011)

Wally76 said:


> Regular updates thanks longqi, just so we know you're still with us.



Ha ha! Good idea.

Longqi - I hope you don't mind if I suggest an exercise.

If you have seen your reptile displaying a possible emotional response, please describe it. It will be interesting to see how those who have voted "no" interpret it.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

^^^
In this particular thread I would actually prefer not to say too much more at the present time
Most people know my feelings about this subject and as Devils Advocate I can assist which ever 'team' is losing
But the greatest thing about this debate is the 'evenness' of the answers from both sides
I truly did not expect anything like this when it started


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## Renenet (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^
> Most people know my feelings about this subject and as Devils Advocate I can assist which ever 'team' is losing
> But the greatest thing about this debate is the 'evenness' of the answers from both sides
> I truly did not expect anything like this when it started


 
Sorry, Longqi, I probably didn't make it clear enough. I was actually directing that exercise at everyone participating in the discussion. 

I have to agree that I've quite enjoyed this thread and it makes me even more certain that I want to study zoology. I also love that it has remained civilised.


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## moosenoose (May 13, 2011)

I seriously don't think my favorite python would miss me if another one of my other pets killed me :lol:


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## redlittlejim (May 13, 2011)

Experiment Day 1: After much debate with my wife about the need to go fully indepth with this test and the need to switch not only clothes but underwear, make up and identity i recieved no such commitment. However, We did trade jeans (but i didnt fit hers so i wore some stretchy pants she has and jumpers and i wore gloves for the duration and also traded socks. 
This test is no so much if snakes can have emotion, but if they recognise someone and possibly can view them as a safer zone! or something there abouts.
So we placed the coastal on the ground and as per usual she came strait back to me. we did this 4times at different distances and we also shuffled places a few times. eacha nd everytime the coastal came to me and proceeded to curl up on my leg. 
However, my other olive seemed confused... came to my wife first but did not crawl up her. and then just stayed still. and the other 3 times, decided it did not want to go to either of us but just stay still on the grass. very odd as every other time it wood come 3outta 4 times.

repeated test in the afternoon. coastal came to my wife first time and again, stopped at her feet but didnt wrap up or get comfy. 2nd time it decided to stay still so we both walked closer slowly and once within a metre it came to me and wrapped itself up. final 2 times it wrapped up on me. the olive came to me twice strait away. and third time e and my wife dance around a bit and it went to her. 4th time it did neither.

so a little hit and miss so far. just for a point, my coastal would always come to me 10/10 times and my olive 3/5 and the other 2/5 it would do nothing. never goes to my wife.

so the fact that it went to my wife even once is a little bit interesting even though it didnt curl up on her. it just got to her feet and put its head on her foot and than just stops... hmmm

sorry, for typing it up so unorganised. im at work and trying to get it done fast 
p.s. any ideas to change the test method would be appreciated!


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

Very interesting
Hope you keep us informed over the next few days


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## longirostris (May 13, 2011)

steve1 said:


> It doesn't matter, the point is that just because an animal can doesn't mean it's in it's best interest to do so.
> 
> Thanks longirostris, I agree that the behaviour is most likely learned, but another case that comes to mind is a bird species that drops nuts into intersections in America then when the lights turn red and the traffic stops they fly down to collect the kernels. That's impressive, how was the example set for these birds to learn this behaviour?


 
Hi again Steve, 

Now that is impressive. It is definately not instinctive, so it must be learned. The big question is, is it a conditioned response through observation or is it a cognitive solution. If it is cognitive it would imply that the birds have the ability to think to problem solve. I am still leaning towards observation and response as a consequence of observation. But I agree that is pretty amazing stuff and may very well be evidence of a cognitive response. The thing for me is that cognitive learning by definition means the ability to think and reason. Thinking implies free will, which ultimately leads to consciousness. Consciousness is an abstract concept which is what I was talking about earlier with my comments on abstract thinking. Again I find it difficult to believe that any animals other then humans have the capacity for abstract thought.


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## longqi (May 13, 2011)

^^^^^
This exactly what I was hoping for with this thread
information passing to and from both sides to possibly help solve this question or at least help us to engage our brains a bit more instead of condemning other opinions out of hand simply because we had once been told the opposite

My hat is off for everyone involved so far


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## souldoubt (May 13, 2011)

longirostris said:


> Hi again Steve,
> 
> Now that is impressive. It is definately not instinctive, so it must be learned. The big question is, is it a conditioned response through observation or is it a cognitive solution. If it is cognitive it would imply that the birds have the ability to think to problem solve. I am still leaning towards observation and response as a consequence of observation. But I agree that is pretty amazing stuff and may very well be evidence of a cognitive response. The thing for me is that cognitive learning by definition means the ability to think and reason. Thinking implies free will, which ultimately leads to consciousness. Consciousness is an abstract concept which is what I was talking about earlier with my comments on abstract thinking. Again I find it difficult to believe that any animals other then humans have the capacity for abstract thought.



Sorry to hijack your post but I believe birds (or at least some species of birds) can problem solve. It has been shown that crows can make tools, carry out a task and they are actually capable of teaching it to others. Crows also effectively eat cane toads by flipping them onto their back and avoiding the poison glands.
This is a good example of a crows ability to problem solve and yes it has been studied scientifically YouTube - Tool-Making Crows


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## longirostris (May 13, 2011)

longqi said:


> I agree that those deaths were mainly through handlers errors
> I only used then to show that most people are no match for even a tamed retic
> 
> That last bit of your final sentence is really the questioned part in all this
> ...



Maybe it's attracted to your body heat. I would hazzard a guess that right now your external (skin) body tempreture is higher then the ambient air tempreture which is probably about 27 or 28 degrees in the early to mid evening in Bali. Again I am guessing your body tempreture is several degrees higher then the ambient air temp at the time you posted your comment. Just a thought longqi.



souldoubt said:


> Sorry to hijack your post but I believe birds (or at least some species of birds) can problem solve. It has been shown that crows can make tools, carry out a task and they are actually capable of teaching it to others. Crows also effectively eat cane toads by flipping them onto their back and avoiding the poison glands.
> This is a good example of a crows ability to problem solve and yes it has been studied scientifically YouTube - Tool-Making Crows



No problem, you are not hijacking my post at all. Your point about using tools is well made and I agree that there are a number of animals that use tools in the collection and or extraction of food. Interesting point is that tool use in animals is almost always associated with the collection or extraction of food. My belief is that in all cases where tool use by animals is observed it is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. By this I mean that the animal has learned what to do through observation and trial. In some cases the response may be even baser then conditioned and could very well be a programmed response (instinctive). I tend to lean towards tool use as a conditioned learning response. In the case of your crows with the Cane Toads it most definately is a conditioned response. The Crows have observed other crows eating cane toads and watched the results. They have also learned again by trial and observation that flipping the cane toad on its back makes the cane toad vulnerable. I do not believe the Crow recognised the cane toad had poison glands in its upper dermis and then thought that if it flipped it over the underbelly may not have poison glands. The whole process would have been accidental. A crow in the process of trying to grab a toad flipped it on its back accidentally and consumed it whilst still on its back with no ill effect. Other crows observe behaviour which first crow by now has repeated several times successfully and try it themselves. This is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. I am not even sure I would call it problem solving unless you are trying to attach a human label to the behaviour. Problem solving is how WE describe the behaviour we are observing in the animals. If I was going to solve a problem I need to be aware that a problem exists and then I would need to understand the complexity of the problem and from there I would need to think (cognitive response) about how I am going to resolve said problem. Awareness/consciousness/thinking come back into play in this discussion. These are concepts that are for me require an brain capable of abstract thought. I do not believe this exists any where alse on earth other then in Humans.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

^^^^
You are possibly 100% correct
As I said I was not inferring anything by what I wrote there
It was just coincidental that that was happening with a snake that I really have a lot of misgivings about while I was replying to this thread
I have no doubt in my mind what so ever that tomorrow or next week etc it will definitely have another go at getting me and I am not looking forward to evading it again by any stretch of imagination


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## longirostris (May 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^^
> You are possibly 100% correct
> As I said I was not inferring anything by what I wrote there
> It was just coincidental that that was happening with a snake that I really have a lot of misgivings about while I was replying to this thread
> I have no doubt in my mind what so ever that tomorrow or next week etc it will definitely have another go at getting me and I am not looking forward to evading it again by any stretch of imagination



Maybe its time for bed.I think I have been doing enough abstract thinking for one night. Good thread longqi and noone has gotten nasty which is a real achievement. Have a good night.


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## seanjbkorbett (May 14, 2011)

hmm..interesting...as they do have moods!


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## Inspiration (May 14, 2011)

I said yes, but admit I have not read the responses as there are so many.

Although I don't personally have a snake at this stage as I'm still undecided as to whether it would be better to buy one to own or to become a wildlife carer for reptiles, I have been around them for a while and can generally tell if they are in the right mood to be handled or if they want to be left alone. This tells me that they have emotions, just like with my dog, he can get into moods which tells me he is feeling things beyond what instinct tells him.

However, it's one of those things where it's all about how we personally feel rather than what proof we can offer. I believe anything with a brain and a heartbeat has emotions, can be afraid, stressed, happy and to some extent, excited.


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## ianinoz (May 14, 2011)

Just a thought or two.

Many people attribute strong emotions to their pet rats/mice , they say these animals can be very affectionate towards their owners.

Same for owners of parrots.

We've all seen how parrots interact with their owners, and we all know that these animals bond strongly with their human companions.

The brains of these animals are no larger than many reptiles.

So why is such a big leap to attribute real emotional responses to naturally social species of lizards ?

I've only observed one reptile closely over an extended period of time (my little mate Lizzy the wild eastern water skink who decided to live with us inside our house and who became very friendly and comfortable around us) and I am certain Lizzy exhibited joy, happiness, inquisitiveness, pleasure, and even liked me. 

Can Lizards be happy? I think they can.

Can lizards "love" their owners the way dogs and cats do ? I think the jury is still out on that one, but there is evidence they can like and even enjoy being around their owners, and in some cases enjoy physical contact with them.

Will they seek out physical contact of their own accord like a dog or a cat or a pet mouse of rat or a even a parrots will ? I don't know, I can only relate how Lizzy one day made physical contact with me when I didn't notice he was about by patting the side of my knee with one of his front feet , was Lizzy trying to get my attention ? 

Maybe Lizzy has just imprinted strongly on me and was used to my always giving him attention and talking to him when ever I saw him.

I can also relate how Lizzy didn't appreciate daytime visitors, Lizzy would disappear to one of his hiding places if someone came to front door when Lizzy was about, ad Lizzy really didn't like it when he had daytime guests - he'd make himself scarce for next day or two. 
Will be interesting to see how Lizzy interacts with our new grandson when he starts get's baby sat by us (if Lizzy returns in the spring from his winter sleep).


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## Ramsayi (May 14, 2011)

To all the believers out there,try a little test.

One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.

If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.


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## Sock Puppet (May 14, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.


Well they do say absence makes the heart grow fonder, or the other one,
If you love something, set it free, if it comes back, it's heart is yours, if it doesn't, then it never gave a rat's **** about you in the first place. 
That's why my enclosures remain closed when I'm not cleaning them or handling the occupants.


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## wranga (May 14, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> To all the believers out there,try a little test.
> 
> One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.
> 
> If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.



are you saying they wont love me in the morning


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## souldoubt (May 14, 2011)

longirostris said:


> No problem, you are not hijacking my post at all. Your point about using tools is well made and I agree that there are a number of animals that use tools in the collection and or extraction of food. Interesting point is that tool use in animals is almost always associated with the collection or extraction of food. My belief is that in all cases where tool use by animals is observed it is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. By this I mean that the animal has learned what to do through observation and trial. In some cases the response may be even baser then conditioned and could very well be a programmed response (instinctive). I tend to lean towards tool use as a conditioned learning response. In the case of your crows with the Cane Toads it most definately is a conditioned response. The Crows have observed other crows eating cane toads and watched the results. They have also learned again by trial and observation that flipping the cane toad on its back makes the cane toad vulnerable. I do not believe the Crow recognised the cane toad had poison glands in its upper dermis and then thought that if it flipped it over the underbelly may not have poison glands. The whole process would have been accidental. A crow in the process of trying to grab a toad flipped it on its back accidentally and consumed it whilst still on its back with no ill effect. Other crows observe behaviour which first crow by now has repeated several times successfully and try it themselves. This is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. I am not even sure I would call it problem solving unless you are trying to attach a human label to the behaviour. Problem solving is how WE describe the behaviour we are observing in the animals. If I was going to solve a problem I need to be aware that a problem exists and then I would need to understand the complexity of the problem and from there I would need to think (cognitive response) about how I am going to resolve said problem. Awareness/consciousness/thinking come back into play in this discussion. These are concepts that are for me require an brain capable of abstract thought. I do not believe this exists any where alse on earth other then in Humans.


 
You're argument is most certainly credible, but I still dont think that we can say beyond a fair amount of doubt that a crow (somewhere along the line) hasn't realised where the source of the poison lies. Can we say with any certainty that a crow hasn't associated ill effects with the consumption of secreted poison or poison glands and is thus avoiding them? I think your scenario of the crow observing how to eat a toad with no ill effects is definitely possible, but I think it's far from impossible to say that a crow may have recognised the source of danger and is now avoiding it (I don't know if it would be possible for a crow to consume a non-lethal dose of bufotoxins as it would be such a minute amount)

As for the making tools being associated with food, I think you're absolutely right it is an instinctive behaviour to get food. However, wouldn't the animal need to realise that there is a problem (it cant get to the food) in order to feel the need to make a tool to get the food?
or else wouldn't it just persevere instinctively trying to get the food as normal without a tool.

but we have diverged haha back on topic, reptile emotions...


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Has anyone seen about the NZ parrot, the Kea. I was watching a show I think it was called "The Smartest Bird In The World". These parrots are native to NZ and are really annoying to the locals. They pull the rubber from around car windows and remove windscreen wipers. Another annoying thing is they communicate and work together to open wheelie bin lids, even if the locals put a brick on the lid. Some scientists concocted a food reward puzzle tube made from perspex, where you drop a food reward in the top and it drops through a series of problems like a dowel across the tube, flaps to lift with string and slides. Every time they did it within a minute. If the Kea needed help it called another one over. These weren't trained Kea's. The experiments were done in the field with wild Kea's that flew over.
There is no doubt that the Kea can problem solve and communicate with others and work together to solve problems.
I have seen Ravens tested in a similar way with a food reward put on a string, hanging off a trapese. The experiment meant that the raven could pull the string within reach but if it let go of the string it fell back out of reach, so the raven got a mate to pull the string up so it could get to the food. They had 2 rewards on 2 strings so the ravens swapped, allowing the other raven to get some too. The same program had a raven in a cage near an electronic safe. The presenter opened the safe and put his wallet in, then locked it and left. The raven unlocked its cage, then put in the correct code, opened up the safe and took the wallet. (I think this raven was trained)

In any case, neither birds did these things through instinct. They solved the problems they were confronted with. Therefore they can use abstract thought to problem solve. With birds being basically flying lizards (for arguments sake), why is it impossible to believe that reptiles can use abstract thought and therefore feel emotions.

P.S. Were kicking butt in the poll........Nah, Nah......OL


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## GeckPhotographer (May 14, 2011)

> To all the believers out there,try a little test.
> 
> One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.
> 
> If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.


I am a believer in reptiles having emotions. Does not mean I think any reptile loves me, or even loves for that matter. My snake used to bite me every time I handle it, now it only bites any other person that handles it and only tries to escape from me. 



> With birds being basically flying lizards (for arguments sake)


Birds are flying reptiles, not just for arguments sake they are flying reptiles. But not flying lizards, they are in fact closer to flying crocodiles.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> To all the believers out there,try a little test.
> 
> One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.
> 
> If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.



Now this really is the definitive test of 'love' isnt it?
I have been waiting for it to be suggested

I do actually leave vivs open but only if someone is close by or if the room itself is secure
At this moment there is 5ft of iguana 12ft of 2 albino burmese and 20ft of 4 chondro just hanging around the display doing their own thing
In the context of this question what I do is NOT a valid comparison and cannot prove a thing either way because someone is here with them 
Even if the bigger burmese keeps coming over to me; in this particular case, it saw me bring a box of rats into the back earlier and knows it will be fed later

Fugawi
I spent many years in the Mackenzie country of NZ
We even had cut down 410 shotguns to keep keas away from lambs [kea guns]
The way they would lure you away from one group of lambs until you were far enough away for other; previously hidden keas; to suddenly attack the undefended ones was pretty frightening
Bit like that movie the birds
Black Backed Gulls are the other that causes similar problems but are not as smart


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

If it does come back, it doesn't suggest love, it suggests it knows where the food is good.

I said for arguments sake because they are not birds without wings, but a close relative with a common ancestor, of which the crocodilians are the closest.


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## D3pro (May 14, 2011)

I get love bites from my snakes.... if that helps


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## Elapidae1 (May 14, 2011)

Interesting link to an article on Human/Ape behaviour, including tool use. Human and ape behavior - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

I still do not believe that Reptiles are capable of emotion and I am surprised at the poll count suggesting the majority believe they are. It got me thinking that maybe the people who are more prone to believing animals feel emotion, also feel they have to project there opinions/emotions on others.


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## FAY (May 14, 2011)

We had a woma escape from the verandah.
It went across the verandah, through the reptile room, along the hall way to the loungeroom where we were.
Does that mean it 'loves and missed us'???


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## SamNabz (May 14, 2011)

Why do people keep comparing reptiles to mammals throughout this thread?

To think that they are even remotely similar is ludacris and shows your inexperience. Go do some more reading..


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## Ramsayi (May 14, 2011)

FAY said:


> We had a woma escape from the verandah.
> It went across the verandah, through the reptile room, along the hall way to the loungeroom where we were.
> Does that mean it 'loves and missed us'???


 

Yes it does Fay.
Well either that or someone in your house smells like a rat


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## wranga (May 14, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> Yes it does Fay.
> Well either that or someone in your house smells like a rat



you rat Fay


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## cement (May 14, 2011)

Maybe their rhythms are that much slower to us that they have emotions, but it vibrates at such a low level we can't possibly pick up on it!

I too had a snake that i left out sunbaking in my yard. When she had warmed up enough she went for a cruise, did a crap and went back into the shed of her own accord a trek of some 15-20 metres and around obstacles (avairies) and curled up on the incubator that is next to her enclosure.
I think she recognizes her "home range" and went back to her enclosure but didn't quite get back in there but stayed close by, which is natural behavior. I would say that if she got cold and sun went down its possible that she would have even gone back into her hide.


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## D3pro (May 14, 2011)

Levels of stress are not emotions. Reptiles have very simple behaviours and all are linked to their individual survival and the survival of their species. They run on pure instinct and have no need for emotions, that's why they have been so successful. If they bite a person, it's only because that person has triggered a instinctual reaction such as feeding or a safety response. If they "cuddle" a person it's only because they haven't being triggered or because being close to 36 degrees triggers their instinct to warm up. As much as people like to think they have emotions and love people, they don't... and there is no proof to say otherwise


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## SamNabz (May 14, 2011)

^^ Exactly right.

As I mentioned in a previous thread about this, they run on nothing but instinct, not love or hate... Just instinct.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

Fay
Some may people may interpret it that way but there are plenty of other options too

Samnabz
Do you believe everything you read in books?
Our experience with reptiles is extremely limited
Most books and studies on this subject have used either wild caught or breeding stock
Possibly the answers may be much different if 3rd or 4th generation reptiles kept as 'pets' were used??

Steve1
I am also very surprised at the poll so far
But possibly a lot of doubters are simply ignoring the thread and havnt voted


At this point I would probably say the answers point more towards a tie which is excellent in my opinion
Hopefully some people who were convinced that reptiles do have not any emotions will ask a few questions now
Hopefully others who are convinced their reptiles 'love them to bits' will do the same


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## ianinoz (May 14, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> To all the believers out there,try a little test.
> 
> One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.
> 
> If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.


 
Maybe I need to remind you that Lizzy is a free agent, free to come and go as Lizzy pleases, does not live in an enclosure as a captive lizard, Lizzy has the run of the house and while I've never tried calling Lizzy, the sweet little creature chose to live with us and seems to enjoy our company (well my company mostly, Lizzy wasn't 100% sure of my wife, she did scary things sometimes like vacuuming and using a hairdrier).

Lizzy also regularly seeked me out, I'd regularly find Lizzy looking over my shoulder from the head the lounge, or watching / studying me from the chair next to me (only inches away).
Lizzy seems to like my talking to him and would respond in way that indicated he was paying attention and was very confortable around me.

Haven't seen Lizzy for a couple of weeks, I'm presuming Lizzy has gone to sleep for winter and will be back when the days warm up and we start getting longer daylight hours.


Lizzy probably passes those tests.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Levels of stress are not emotions. Reptiles have very simple behaviours and all are linked to their individual survival and the survival of their species. They run on pure instinct and have no need for emotions, that's why they have been so successful. If they bite a person, it's only because that person has triggered a instinctual reaction such as feeding or a safety response. If they "cuddle" a person it's only because they haven't being triggered or because being close to 36 degrees triggers their instinct to warm up. As much as people like to think they have emotions and love people, they don't... and there is no proof to say otherwise



Although there is no scientifically based 'proof' to prove otherwise it does appear than that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some reptiles have responded in ways that suggest at least some emotional response??


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## D3pro (May 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> At this point I would probably say the answers point more towards a tie which is excellent in my opinion
> Hopefully some people who were convinced that reptiles do have not any emotions will ask a few questions now
> Hopefully others who are convinced their reptiles 'love them to bits' will do the same


 
I wouldn't be looking for answers based on the opinions of forum dwellers lol. There is not much point debating on a topic which lacks hard evidence on both sides... 
meh, selavi



longqi said:


> Although there is no scientifically based 'proof' to prove otherwise it does appear than that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some reptiles have responded in ways that suggest at least some emotional response??


 
How do you know that the evidence seen is not simply a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by a human as emotion?


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

Ianinoz
Could it just be that Lizzie has found a safe place to be and frequents it because those birds cant get her there??



D3pro said:


> I wouldn't be looking for answers based on the opinions of forum dwellers lol. There is not much point debating on a topic which lacks hard evidence on both sides...
> meh, selavi
> 
> 
> ...



Actually I think this is exactly the right place to ask this question because reptiles tested in a sterile laboratory may respond totally differently to those that have been included as pets in part of a family??

Your last point is an extremely valid one
That is what this great discussion is trying to uncover


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## D3pro (May 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Ianinoz
> Actually I think this is exactly the right place to ask this question because reptiles tested in a sterile laboratory may respond totally differently to those that have been included as pets in part of a family??


 
Maybe, but the problem with that is that the people looking after the reptile as a pet has no idea what they are looking for.... most likely from the lack of scientific backing


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Sam and D3pro.....You keep asking for proof of emotions from reptiles but realistically there is no proof that they don't. Assigning the tag "instinct" to the behaviors works just as well towards our "Human" emotions. A human baby cries instinctively when hungry, as it grows it knows that mum will come when it cries, a learned response. Anger could be argued as an instinctive dominance response, happiness could be a learned response to put others at ease etc. This is also the reason we keep looking into mammals and continually asking "What is emotion?" We keep on falling into the trap of assigning "human" levels and degrees of emotions. I personally think that all creatures can feel some degree of emotions or show some degree of emotive response, love may be a fleeting inkling of a mildly pleasurable association for example.
Why do some of us believe that only we can have emotions and then try to argue that the same emotive responses in animals are considered instinct?


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## ianinoz (May 14, 2011)

I've seen magpies open boxes and plastic containers , take the lid off, to access left over food inside them.

And to watch young magpies frolicing, playing in the front yard, is hilarious and a sure indication that magpies have plenty of brains.

Same goes for rosellas, galahs, sulphur crested parrots too, all regular visitors to my yard (we encourage them by leaving leaving a little bit of tasty stuff for in a dish). They are very funny to watch when they decide to play.



D3pro said:


> Maybe, but the problem with that is that the people looking after the reptile as a pet has no idea what they are looking for.... most likely from the lack of scientific backing


How did my nick get there.

Well known in science that often the act of observing something changes the observed. (in physics anyway).

I don't think laboratory testing will ever answer this question, creatures like lizards would always be stressed in a laboratory setting.

You really need to let the reptile be himself and do his own thing and simply watch his behaviour and deduce what the animal is feeling from observations of the reptiles behaviour when it's a free agent.



longqi said:


> Ianinoz
> Could it just be that Lizzie has found a safe place to be and frequents it because those birds cant get her there??
> 
> 
> ...


 
Pretty cleavour of Lizzy to do so don't you think.

Obvious that since Lizzy was a daily visitor, frequently a few times a day, for 6 months shows Lizzy knew Lizzy was onto a good thing and knew he was safe with us (we never chased him, never tried to catch him, or to grab him or even touch him, and we shared our food with him too.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

^^^^
I would really love to see a set of tests done using 'pet' reptiles as opposed to laboratory ones

But I can find no indications anywhere that this has ever been done


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## ianinoz (May 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^^
> I would really love to see a set of tests done using 'pet' reptiles as opposed to laboratory ones
> 
> But I can find no indications anywhere that this has ever been done


 
Probably never will, would you part with your pets and let someone subject them to scientific testing (that might harm or stress them) given the choice. I'm betting few owners who have particularly charming or "affectionate" or tame lizards would. Plus most of you guys bought your pets and they weren't cheap. 

I'm very lucky in that Lizzy chose to live with us. Isn't that in itself an indicator of intelligence and a positive emotional indicator. It goes against what you'd think would be natural instincts to avoid humans.


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## SamNabz (May 14, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Why do some of us believe that only we can have emotions and then try to argue that the same emotive responses in animals are considered instinct?



Don't twist my words mate... Where in any of my posts have I said anything close to this? I am talking about reptiles... A lot of other animals do have and show emotion; they can also be taught to do things on command (even defecate!). However there is always the possibility of any animals natural instinct to appear. Reptile on the other hand do not obey commands, come when called etc.

Here's a little experiment for you or anyone; go get a mate of yours that doesn't frequent your house and/or collection, put a snake in the middle of the room and go on opposite sides of the room. If the snake goes to you (seeing as they are most peoples 'companions') let me know, however film it and show us.



longqi said:


> ^^^^
> I would really love to see a set of tests done using 'pet' reptiles as opposed to laboratory ones
> 
> But I can find no indications anywhere that this has ever been done


 
I'm curious... So what is the difference between a pet reptile and a lab owned one that they study and learn off?

I'm sure they have them set up in boxes (enclosures) and feed them as frequently as we do (depending on the study being done). So what is the difference? That they don't handle them or interact with them as much?

I have reptiles in my collection that I've had countless hours of interaction with, raised from hatchies and others with none at all (just feed, clean etc.) and neither of them act differently to each other in any way shape or form.

Does this mean I have dud reptiles? No, it simply means I am not trying to convince myself that they care about me as they are incapable of doing so...


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> Probably never will, would you part with your pets and let someone subject them to scientific testing (that might harm or stress them) given the choice. I'm betting few owners who have particularly charming or "affectionate" or tame lizards would. Plus most of you guys bought your pets and they weren't cheap.
> 
> I'm very lucky in that Lizzy chose to live with us. Isn't that in itself an indicator of intelligence and a positive emotional indicator. It goes against what you'd think would be natural instincts to avoid humans.



I for one would quite happily let supervised testing be done on both seldom handled and my pet reptiles just to try to get a definitive answer to this question
So long as the tests were designed in such a way that I felt comfortable with them I could not see a reason not to encourage this
I dont think a test for emotional responses would mean that they would have to hurt or stress the reptiles; but Im not a scientist so maybe the response to stress would have to be included??


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## GeckPhotographer (May 14, 2011)

> Hopefully others who are convinced their reptiles 'love them to bits' will do the same


Thats even more black and white than people are making this debate. It is not either no emotion or love them to bits there is broad middle ground.


> How do you know that the evidence seen is not simply a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by a human as emotion?


How do you know that human emotion is not a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by ourselves as emotion and thus meaning that instincts and emotions are at least mostly synonymous? 
Also I would like to point out that "simply a complex" is a highly confusing phrase.


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Longqi....Observations of wild reptiles would also be needed.

I have Davey, my Central Beardie, sitting on the warmest part of my laptop, watching the screen as I type this. If he acted purely on instinct, he should be flaring up and showing a flight or fight instinct but he doesn't. He has his head on my wrist, occasionally watching the screen, when he actually opens his eyes. He is showing no instinctual behaviour except warming his tummy. How can this be explained? I don't believe he is showing love, but he is showing a knowledge that he won't be hurt and feels comfortable enough to close his eyes while resting his head on my wrist. I say he is feeling comfortable because a feeling is an emotive response.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> Don't twist my words mate... Where in any of my posts have I said anything close to this? I am talking about reptiles... A lot of other animals do have and show emotion; they can also be taught to do things on command (even defecate!). However there is always the possibility of any animals natural instinct to appear. Reptile on the other hand do not obey commands, come when called etc.
> 
> Here's a little experiment for you or anyone; go get a mate of yours that doesn't frequent your house and/or collection, put a snake in the middle of the room and go on opposite sides of the room. If the snake goes to you (seeing as they are most peoples 'companions') let me know, however film it and show us.
> 
> ...



Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment as we talk here
It has only be going for one day so far so results are interesting but by no means conclusive in any way
Go back about 3 or 4 pages and have a gander

I have both 'pet' and breeding stock
The reaction and interaction of both is very different in my opinion
Just as simple example I would never expect any of my pet reptiles to even hint at a threat display no matter who is handling them
But I definitely cannot say the same about the breeding stock that are seldom handled
So if their natural instinct is flee or fight and this has changed in the pet ones
Surely other things may have changed as well???

Fugawi
There is probably enough testing/reporting been done on wild reptiles
That is where most of the scientific results have come from
So we probably can just use those tests as a very valid comparison??

Uh Oh
mammals and reptiles again
If someone had tested the first wild dogs for emotional response I think the answers would be very different to testing a lap dog from nowdays???


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## SamNabz (May 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment as we talk here
> It has only be going for one day so far so results are interesting but by no means conclusive in any way
> Go back about 3 or 4 pages and have a gander
> 
> ...



So you're telling me that ALL of your breeding stock will not tolerate any handling due to them being seldom handled? I find this very hard to believe...

If it is just a select few who don't tolerate it then that also has nothing to do with "emotion" what so ever and is just the individual snake itself... Like I said, I have some that I interact with and others I don't, some of either 'category' have a go at me every now and then, but at the end of the day that's just the way they are..


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Thats even more black and white than people are making this debate. It is not either no emotion or love them to bits there is broad middle ground.
> 
> How do you know that human emotion is not a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by ourselves as emotion and thus meaning that instincts and emotions are at least mostly synonymous?
> Also I would like to point out that "simply a complex" is a highly confusing phrase.



Absolutely agree about a huge middle ground


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Whoa....... Sam, I said some people, not directed at you in particular, a generalised comment.


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> So you're telling me that ALL of your breeding stock will not tolerate any handling due to them being seldom handled? I find this very hard to believe...
> 
> If it is just a select few who don't tolerate it then that also has nothing to do with "emotion" what so ever and is just the individual snake itself... Like I said, I have some that I interact with and others I don't, some of either 'category' have a go at me every now and then, but at the end of the day that's just the way they are..
> 
> Also no offence to redlittlejim, but he has only joined this year and probably has 1 or 2 reptiles, I don't see how any of his 'experiments' could be conclusive...



Most of my breeding stock will tolerate handling
But there are some who definitely dont respond well to handling
While you expect to get tagged occasionally by some of your snakes from either category; I would be shocked if any of my pet ones went into any form of threat display
I am NOT saying this is evidence of emotional response

Conclusive evidence is very hard hard to find and even his tests will never be considered conclusive by scientists
Regardless of how many reptiles he has or his level unknown of experience he is trying something different and I applaud him for that


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Longqi.....Wild responses would be the control.

I was just thinking, we, as humans, usually sense emotions through facial expression amid other signs. I wonder if we don't assign emotions to reptiles due to the lack of facial expressions. Is it just that we don't recognise the signs and that reptiles show different signs, that they can recognise and we don't?


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## SamNabz (May 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Most of my breeding stock will tolerate handling
> But there are some who definitely dont respond well to handling
> While you expect to get tagged occasionally by some of your snakes from either category; I would be shocked if any of my pet ones went into any form of threat display
> I am NOT saying this is evidence of emotional response
> ...



Maybe conclusive evidence is very hard to find because there is an extreme lack of emotion etc. in reptiles?

There has been a lot of success with other animals; reptiles have been around a very long time and for there to still be no evidence of them having an emotional connection etc. then why don't we just accept that as the result?..

Also I am sure that lab tests would have used WC and CB stock as well as tried most if not all the possible scenarios mentioned on here (e.g. raised from the egg, constant interaction etc.). Fair enough they are just studies to them at the end of the day but that is the length they go to with other animals or 'projects' when conducting these studies...


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

Fugawi

OK Got it now and understand what you meant

Samnabz
We could just accept what scientists say?
Or we could question their findings so far because of the seemingly very limited number of reported tests done?
We could accept that all testing was exactly the same?
Or we could suggest that maybe other tests may give different answers?


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Sam.....You seem to forget there is no conclusive evidence either way, so the debate continues.
A Shingle back will remain with a partner well after the partner is roadkill. Instinct would be to leave as soon as it recognises its partner is dead or even to eat the partner but they don't. They seem to show a connection. Love, I doubt it, but some sort of reptile emotional connection, possibly. Again, no evidence either way so any conclusions are speculative at best.


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## ianinoz (May 14, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Longqi....Observations of wild reptiles would also be needed.
> 
> I have Davey, my Central Beardie, sitting on the warmest part of my laptop, watching the screen as I type this. If he acted purely on instinct, he should be flaring up and showing a flight or fight instinct but he doesn't. He has his head on my wrist, occasionally watching the screen, when he actually opens his eyes. He is showing no instinctual behaviour except warming his tummy. How can this be explained? I don't believe he is showing love, but he is showing a knowledge that he won't be hurt and feels comfortable enough to close his eyes while resting his head on my wrist. I say he is feeling comfortable because a feeling is an emotive response.


 
Wow!!

And I thought Lizzy was friendly.



longqi said:


> Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment as we talk here
> It has only be going for one day so far so results are interesting but by no means conclusive in any way
> Go back about 3 or 4 pages and have a gander
> 
> ...


 
Do my observations of Lizzy , who is wild and free to come and go as he pleases count as useful observations of a wild lizard (even if he has become accustomed to being around my wife and I) ?


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

Ian
Yes your observations are very valid to this debate
Some may say they are not definitive proof but your comments are welcomed


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## fugawi (May 14, 2011)

Even circumstantial evidence is still evidence.


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## redlittlejim (May 14, 2011)

Ok everyone, once again the test was performed. I made my wife wear my work uniform after i had been in it all day along with gloves. And i wore her robe and stretchy pants plus gloves. 
I have made it a little more in depth now that this has turned into quite a good debate. We take turns grabbing the snake out and placing on the ground and we both walk awaay together and shuffle about and then split up to seperate areas. 1st test is about 2metres away, then 4, 5, 6. if the snake doesnt not act in a space of about 30-60seconds we take a step closer.

Morning trial: Coastal 1st- went to my wife and wrapped around her leg. (1st time ever in 6months) 2nd- came to me, 3rd- me, 4th- me. Although on the first day it went close to her it didnt actually go up onto her leg like it did this time.
Olive 1st- went to me, 2nd Neither  3rd me after 2 steps, 4th wife after 3steps.

Afternoon trial: Coastal 1st- me 2nd me 3rd me 4th me after 3steps.
olive 1st- wife, 2nd wife, 3, neither even after many steps. 4th wife.

Im trying to think of a way that would stop the coastal getting my "scent" or anything like that after the first test, all body parts except face where covered. i may try getting my wife "scent her clothes" by going for a slight jog in them first? as she wore my work clothes after a full night shift. I was honestly shocked by my coastal going up to her, however it seems after i went up and we replaced it back in the centre it "scented" or whatever is the correct term, me again?! 
Nothing conclussive, just a fun little test


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## longqi (May 14, 2011)

^^^^
Very cool
Ty for putting in this effort


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## redlittlejim (May 14, 2011)

my pleasure. other than being tired in the morning when i get home from night shift its actually pretty cool seeing what they will do. the olive is always a lot more unpredictable but my coastal used to be a sure thing... so far, tho obviously not conclussive, i assume that my coastal is able to recognise me (smell or someway) and "feels" more comfortable or safer or however you wish to put it, near me than my wife. before the attempt to 'trick' with the clothes swapping the coastal was a 100% to me. so pretty cool


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## D3pro (May 15, 2011)

Holycow this thread has lost me...
Sigh...


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## souldoubt (May 15, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> Don't twist my words mate... Where in any of my posts have I said anything close to this? I am talking about reptiles... A lot of other animals do have and show emotion; they can also be taught to do things on command (even defecate!). However there is always the possibility of any animals natural instinct to appear. Reptile on the other hand do not obey commands, come when called etc.
> 
> Here's a little experiment for you or anyone; go get a mate of yours that doesn't frequent your house and/or collection, put a snake in the middle of the room and go on opposite sides of the room. If the snake goes to you (seeing as they are most peoples 'companions') let me know, however film it and show us.
> 
> ...




I'm interested as to how you can confirm so conclusively that reptiles are incapable of emotion? Science has not proved one way or the other so you can say their is no proof that reptiles have emotion but there's also no proof that they dont.

I hate to bring up the mammal thing but cats don't generally obey commands and rarely come when called, does that mean they are incapable of having emotions?

I have noticed that it seems to be common for members of the "No" party to have a very narrow definition of emotion. There are more emotions than love, affection and concern for another.


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## carterd (May 15, 2011)

Pets don't Love us, they depend on us.

But its ok to pretend, that they do have Emotion.

The proof is we humans have free will, animals don't.

What you witness is learned behaviour.

Emotion has nothing to do with Biology.


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## marteed (May 15, 2011)

As humans I think we anthromorphisize a lot of animals. Animals I believe have emotions, but not in the way or extent we think they do! So, I think yes!


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## longqi (May 15, 2011)

carterd said:


> Pets don't Love us, they depend on us.
> 
> But its ok to pretend, that they do have Emotion.
> 
> ...



I would think that any wild animal has free will??
It is only after we put them in boxes or farms etc that their free will is taken away??
So could we say 'Pets' dont have free will??


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## ianinoz (May 15, 2011)

My little pal Lizzy certainly has free will.

He's free to come and go and has the run of the house, he chose to live with us, and chose to interact with us. (If anything, Lizzy was more a guest than a pet since Lizzy doesn't depend on us.)


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## cement (May 15, 2011)

D3pro said:


> Maybe, but the problem with that is that the people looking after the reptile as a pet has no idea what they are looking for.... most likely from the lack of scientific backing



You don't have to have a scientific background to understand how things run. In fact, in my humble opinion, it's better if you don't.
All you need is your own personal experience over time.
There is such a thing (scientifically known thing), called "The wisdom of the averages".

This is based on an experiment ,but I don't have time to elaborate on that now. It basically found that there will be your fanatics at one end and the opposite at the other. Or, very good at one end and no good at the other. In a group of people with little to no experience on an issue, they can be tested and found that the balancing of the scale of knowledge averaged out at the right outcome.


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## Inspiration (May 15, 2011)

It's illegal to own a crocodile in Queensland, but a guy about 20k from us owned one and the council caught up with him. The trouble is, it was an estuarine crocodile who had a swimming pool in the backyard and was allowed in and out of the house as it pleased, would come when it was called and used to hang out in the kitchen waiting for the owner to drop food. Yep, it blew me away and it angered me that the croc had to go to a wildlife park since it was a definate pet, and knew no other way of living. I felt really sad for the owner and the croc for being separated and wondered if they would both cope well with the changes. I know the owner is heartbroken because he could communicate that to the papers, but was the crocodile heartbroken? I don't know, he seems to have adapted ok, but is he as happy in the swamp as he was in the house? I think unless we can communicate with them effectively, or we become one for a day, we're not going to have a definate answer.


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## ianinoz (May 15, 2011)

Inspiration said:


> It's illegal to own a crocodile in Queensland, but a guy about 20k from us owned one and the council caught up with him. The trouble is, it was an estuarine crocodile who had a swimming pool in the backyard and was allowed in and out of the house as it pleased, would come when it was called and used to hang out in the kitchen waiting for the owner to drop food. Yep, it blew me away and it angered me that the croc had to go to a wildlife park since it was a definate pet, and knew no other way of living. I felt really sad for the owner and the croc for being separated and wondered if they would both cope well with the changes. I know the owner is heartbroken because he could communicate that to the papers, but was the crocodile heartbroken? I don't know, he seems to have adapted ok, but is he as happy in the swamp as he was in the house? I think unless we can communicate with them effectively, or we become one for a day, we're not going to have a definate answer.


 
I'm guessing the salty was a juvinile.

I can relate to how he is feeling, I'm sure Lizzy is bromating for winter and will be back in a few months, but I do miss Lizzy's daily visits and his antics.


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## Recharge (May 15, 2011)

longqi said:


> I would think that any wild animal has free will??
> It is only after we put them in boxes or farms etc that their free will is taken away??
> So could we say 'Pets' dont have free will??


 
look up the meaning of free will.
"“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."
it requires you to have full cognitive ability of full self realisation.
in any and all forms of testing for this ability, almost no other animal has this, so no, you're incorrect.


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## kawasakirider (May 16, 2011)

I hope this hasn't been brought up in the past few pages, if it has, forgive me. Waruikazi posted something in another that I found interesting. He has experience with crocodiles, so I say it's credible (I've also heard of crocs learning how to avoid traps).



waruikazi said:


> It should be shot. There is little point in relocating them, they end up back where they started with the only difference being they are more wise to the traps and more dangerous.
> 
> Crocs and people don't mix. 'Cheeky' crocs either need to be sent to farms (where they end up shot or in a cage where they may aswell be dead anyway) or killed.



If this is correct, it indicates that reptiles are capable of cognitive thought.

Edit

I've just read back a few pages and the posts regarding "lizzy" the wild lizard reminded me of something. Movie World on the Gold Coast has (if it's still there) a wild frilled neck lizard, I swear it was a frilled neck, I'm not sure if the goldy is in their natural range, so it may have been a beardie. Still fairly sure it was a frilled neck....

Anyway, it lives(d) in the wild west part of the theme park, in a fenced off area with a fair bit of scrub in the middle of a walkway. I was eating lunch and I noticed it, so I threw a piece of hamburger patty to it, and it came right over to me. It was quite large, and I kept on feeding it. A bunch of asian tourists crowded around thinking I was a handler, and asked me if they could take pics.

I'm always up for winding people up, so I said yes and kinda gave them a big speech, haha. The lizard remained there eating the pieces that I gave to it whilst the tourists took photo's for almost ten minutes. After they left he stayed around for a while, but he realised he wasn't going to get anything else and bolted back to his patch of bush. He was very close to me, and surrounded by a bunch of people and kept eating. He wasn't fased one bit.

Food for thought....


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Recharge said:


> look up the meaning of free will.
> "“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives."
> it requires you to have full cognitive ability of full self realisation.
> in any and all forms of testing for this ability, almost no other animal has this, so no, you're incorrect.



Here were the definitions I found
free will_n._*1. * The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
*2. * The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

[Middle English fre wil, translation of Late Latin l



berum arbitrium : Latin l



berum, neuter of l



ber, _free_ + Latin arbitrium, _will_.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
free will_n_*1.* (Philosophy)*a.* the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined
*b.* the doctrine that such human freedom of choice is not illusory Compare determinism
*c.* (_as modifier_) a free-will decision

*2.* the ability to make a choice without coercion he left of his own free will: I did not influence him

Although one of these does refer only to humans I think the others could also refer to animals??
Surely 'the power to make a choice without coercion' could equally apply to any animal that is free to come and go as it chooses to??

When a rat solves various mazes time after time isnt that 'choosing a course of action from among various alternatives??
If any animal decides to 'fight or flee' it is making a rational choice based on its observations at that particular moment??
When a hunting animal selects one victim from a group of prey doesnt that exactly fit this definition??
When a pack of wolves or pride of lions select one victim, ignoring all the others; maybe the same thing could be said??
When any animal chooses a place to rest it would usually have many alternatives but would choose the best and safest option from those??
If an eagle decides to drift in the thermals for hours ignoring prey on the ground below is that not free will?/

If a human does exact things and they are called 'free will'; why cant the same thing be said if an animal does them???

I am no philosopher but this seems very strange to me unless Im missing some point here??


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## longirostris (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Here were the definitions I found
> free will_n._*1. *The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
> *2. *The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
> 
> ...


 
Ah longqi, clearly you are trying to wind people up. Surely you can see that everyone of these behaviours you have listed could be attributed to instinct or conditioned responses. I come back to what I have said earlier. There are 3 behaviourial responses to any given circumstance or environmental stimuli. The first is instinct. Instinct is a preprogrammed response, it happens without thought, all animals including humans display instinctive reactions to given stimuli. Instinct is clearly the first explanation for most behaviours by all animals including humans.The second is a learned response through observation, this is called conditioned learning. There are a growing number of animals that have demonstrated clearly the capacity to learn through observation and repitition. The third is to think about the response to the stimuli. This is called cognitive learning. Lets present a hypothetical situation so everyone here can grasp the concept.

There are 10 humans and 10 of whatever other animal you wish to choose in 2 seperate locations. There are 2 apple trees at each location with only 5 apples on each tree. Lets assume for arguements sake that the animals we have picked are apple eaters, you could pick any type of food you want to match the animals diet in the discussion. Everybody/animal needs to eat. The first problem that presents is how do we feed everyone when there is not enough food. Well the answer in humans is simple we think through the problem and divide the food up half an apple for each person. In the animals, it will be the strongest and fittest first. There will be some sharing particularly among mothers and siblings but otherwise instinct will prevail and the strongest will eat and the rest will go hungry. 

Sorry longqi, unfortunately I acccidently posted so I will have to continue this post on a follow up, not enough time to do a complete edit and I had not finished with my discussion.


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## Inspiration (May 16, 2011)

ianinoz said:


> I'm guessing the salty was a juvinile.
> 
> I can relate to how he is feeling, I'm sure Lizzy is bromating for winter and will be back in a few months, but I do miss Lizzy's daily visits and his antics.



I believe it was about 5 years old, so just a very young croc. We have a frilled neck lizard in our backyard and many birds in our tree. I love living in this area, out of the way of everything. We visit my uncle in the city and it's so different, you can catch buses and trains to everything down there but it's so hectic, it doesn't have a fresh and pleasant smell to it (talking about the city, not saying his house stinks lol) and the only birds you see are those fat city pigeons.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Longirostris
Answer
Humans; being human; would kill the animals
Stuff them with apples 
and bake slowly over an open fire
Now that is probably what would happen in reality

I am really not trying to wind anyone up here with my previous post
But as I said I am no philosopher
I understand that part pretty well you just described so well [I think] regarding non repetitive or conditioned learning, puzzle solving, and cognitive learning, but how does that relate to free will??

My last post was about the definition of Free Will and how I believe it could equally apply to animals

If Free Will is the freedom to choose from various alternatives without coercion; why do we call that instinct in animals but free will in people, when the result appears to be exactly the same??


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## fugawi (May 16, 2011)

Cognition is basically "The process of thought". *Instinct* or *innate behavior* is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Learned behaviour = that one is pretty obvious. Therefore isn't cognition just a part of learned behaviour?

Unfortunately we cannot just compartmentalise everything and just drop them all in their nice, neat little boxes. Emotions just don't fall within a neat little box, we have them and animals don't. We cannot rationalise that this behaviour in animals is learned or instinct and not apply the same rationale to human behaviour and emotions. Human emotion can be explained as learned or instinct with the same arguments as used against animals.


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## hrafna (May 16, 2011)

longirostris said:


> Ah longqi, clearly you are trying to wind people up. Surely you can see that everyone of these behaviours you have listed could be attributed to instinct or conditioned responses. I come back to what I have said earlier. There are 3 behaviourial responses to any given circumstance or environmental stimuli. The first is instinct. Instinct is a preprogrammed response, it happens without thought, all animals including humans display instinctive reactions to given stimuli. Instinct is clearly the first explanation for most behaviours by all animals including humans.The second is a learned response through observation, this is called conditioned learning. There are a growing number of animals that have demonstrated clearly the capacity to learn through observation and repitition. The third is to think about the response to the stimuli. This is called cognitive learning. Lets present a hypothetical situation so everyone here can grasp the concept.
> 
> There are 10 humans and 10 of whatever other animal you wish to choose in 2 seperate locations. There are 2 apple trees at each location with only 5 apples on each tree. Lets assume for arguements sake that the animals we have picked are apple eaters, you could pick any type of food you want to match the animals diet in the discussion. Everybody/animal needs to eat. The first problem that presents is how do we feed everyone when there is not enough food. Well the answer in humans is simple we think through the problem and divide the food up half an apple for each person. In the animals, it will be the strongest and fittest first. There will be some sharing particularly among mothers and siblings but otherwise instinct will prevail and the strongest willeat and the rest will go hungry.
> 
> ...


 what about the many various animals that do share meals? for example the wild dogs of africa make sure that everyone of the pack gets a feed, even the old and infirm and the young. male penguins go without food to protect the eggs while their partners go hunt.


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## fugawi (May 16, 2011)

Longirostrus........Depending on the humans, they will also fight over the apples. No difference.


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## saximus (May 16, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Longirostrus........Depending on the humans, they will also fight over the apples. No difference.


 Is this a serious statement? There's a huge difference


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## hrafna (May 16, 2011)

well greed is a huge factor in humans to this day!


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## longirostris (May 16, 2011)

Longqi, 

Continuation of earlier thread.

The more important point though in this discussion is why would the animals behave in such a manner when clearly if every animal ate then none needs to starve. In my view the reason is quite simple and that is because that is a cognitive response to a stimuli that the animals are unable to make. They will not and do not think. They react to the given stimuli according to preprogammed instincts or learned responses. People here can put any spin on it they like but in the end thinking is a cognitive response/behaviour that up till now is an entirely human process and has not definatively been demonstrated by any other animals. Although I will concede that there are examples of some animals in certain situations that appear to demonstrate some ability to think in order to solve a problem, the point I made in my post a few days ago that these examples almost always involve food as a reward for the exhibition of the behaviour, which for me demonstrates conditioning. Please, I did not say some animals cannot remember just that they do not think. 

Perhaps I should be more definitive with the word think. For me in this arguement thinking is the process where baser behaviours (instincts conditioned responses) are set aside so a reasoned response can take place where after examining the stimuli and working through an analytical process an acceptable outcome can be achieved. The outcome can be good or bad and there is no reason why even after the thinking process has taken place the outcome could still be that the strongest eat and the weak do not. 

I have read a lot of posts here talking about animals taking flight and being fearful in given situations. Maybe we need to clarify responses and definitions. Fear and fright are not the same thing. They are 2 different behaviours that elicit 2 different responses. A reaction to a fright is instinctive. Fear is learned so it is bought about by conditioning and as a consequence elicits a conditioned response. Emotions are what we "feel" about certain external environmental stimuli. There are many words employed to describe what we feel, such as love, hate, fear, anger, jealousy, bitterness, betrayal, joy, happiness, the list could go on. These words all describe "feelings" we have about a given stimuli. We are conscious of them. We are aware of them. Abstract thought again. 

As humans we are always looking for ways to "label" everything in our lives, because it makes us more comfortable with who we are and what our place is and how we can be part of what is going on in the natural world around us. In suggesting our pets in particular reptiles have emotions, we are doing nothing more then looking for and in a lot of peoples opinions finding behaviours in our pets that fit in with our stereotyping of what constitutes emotions and emotional responses.

I keep hundreds of dragons over many species and I have never in 20 years observed any of my animals displaying what I would describe as emotion. I see behaviours that are interesting but they are not in my view emotions and can easily be described as baser behaviours. How many times have I heard people say that their Frilly's are sulking. I use the same description myself when one of my Frilled dragons refuses food or demonstrates some other abnormal behaviour. The truth is that the animal is responding to an unsatisfactory stimuli, not enough variiation in diet, not enough humidity in the enclosure, tempretures not right, stress from competing animals and so on. We don't or at least I hope we don't just pass this condition of with a shrug, consoling ourselves, by saying it's just sad or not happy, no need to worry, it will come good soon enough, without actually looking into what has triggered the behaviour.

We all love our pets, I have a staffy that I swear is human. But I know she is not. I also know that in spite of how smart we think she is she is not capable of an abstract thought. My wife thinks that sissy (our staffy) loves her, the dog will go to her every time in preference to me. The dog sits at her feet when we watch TV, the dog demonstrates every aspect of love that we would see in human behaviour. Devotion, loyalty, etc, (interestring eh, more emotions to describe emotions). Why does our dog behave in this manner. Because my wife walks her everyday feeds her most days includes her on car outings and as a general rule treats her like she is one of the family. 

If my wife is not around then what does the dog do. She comes to me in preference to my son and does exactly the same thing. Why because occassionally I will feed her and pat her. This is inspite of the fact that my youngest son will play with her for hours and take her out walking and generally spend much more time with her then me. But he never feeds her. This is clearly a learned response to our family situation. Our dog knows by conditioning that my wife is her number one meal ticket followed by me. Interestingly the dog demonstrates little interest in my youngest soon who plays with her all the time and even less interest in my 19 year old soon who has absolutely nothing to do with her. She wont even come to him when she is called with out serious cajoling.  

I am surprised but probably shouldn't have been that this discussion has gone on as long as it has and that so many people really believe that animals are capable of exhibiting emotions. Again, they are behaviours that we misinterpret as emotions because we are trying to find a label for what we see that we are comfortable with and that we want our pets to feel for us. We ourselves are being overly emotional in suggesting our pets have emotions but nontheless understandable because it is human nature to look for reciprication of our feelings about our pets and other things that matter to us in the natural world. 

At this point I would love to have some input for someone qualified in neurological sciences that could give us a definative opinion as to whether animals even have a brain function in what ever hemisphere that would allow them to feel anything on an emotional level. Particularly I am looking for the capacity for awareness of emotion for with out the awareness it is a baser response. 

We can keep going around and around and we can keep looking at each other even more incredulously but I really think some solid factual input now would be really good. So I am now stepping out of this thread until such time as someone can contribute something that is not emotional and has some basis in scientific fact, whether it be favouring my view or otherwise. And please no more "did you see the WHATEVER ANIMAL on such and such it could do so and so. If anybody has definitive evidence of any animal performing a function that requires abstract thought the condition required to recognise and interpret and label emotions please let me know.

As I final comment I know my view is quite conflicting with a lot of people's view here on this forum. I have not been discourteous, rude or denigrated anybody else's opinion on this topic at a personal level. Please show me the same courtesy. Failure to adhere to this will result in my hunting you down and resoundingly beating you mercilessly to a pulp. Baser response applies, "rage".


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## fugawi (May 16, 2011)

Saximus....At first it will be nice and civil but as starvation becomes an issue, survival instincts WILL take over and eventually the animals, both human and non human, will even start to eat each other. Really, Longi's original example is probably a bad example.


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## saximus (May 16, 2011)

You say survival instincts will take over. Which means you are agreeing that this type of behaviour is instinctual and not emotional then?


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## longirostris (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Longirostris
> Answer
> Humans; being human; would kill the animals
> Stuff them with apples
> ...



Sorry Longqi 

And a very fair question, I have committed a cardinal sin and jumped into the conversation by actually making an assumption that Recharge actually meant to say something along the lines of free will equates to consciousness. You are quite right to query this and I apologise for jumping in and making the assumption, perhaps we should ask Recharge to explain what he means by free will. I will not put any further words in anybodies mouth



fugawi said:


> Saximus....At first it will be nice and civil but as starvation becomes an issue, survival instincts WILL take over and eventually the animals, both human and non human, will even start to eat each other. Really, Longi's original example is probably a bad example.



Fugawi, 

I agree my example was crude and probably poorly thought out. I was just trying to get people to think of a situation where humans and animals are in the same situation and work through what the various responses to the situation would be from each group. I was trying to demonstrate that as a rule humans will think through the situation, propose and analyse alternatives and in the end come to a pragmatic solution. The animals will not. Longqi's had the best response so far. He says the humans would kill the animals and eat them, which is exactly right and thinking outside the square. 

Longqi is almost demonstrating my point. The ability to think of alternatives to a certain situation. The only problem is that he ignored one of my parameters that I established in my poor hypothetical example, that being that the animals and humans were located in 2 different locations. But then the arguement comes from Longqi or someone else, yes but how far apart are those 2 locations and is it possible to still kill the animals so we can not only eat them but we will have 5 extra apples. You get my point, I hope, we are all thinking about how we are going to solve the initial problem of how do we satiate our hunger or need for food. 

I am possibly deviating to far away from the crux of the discussion to try and demonstrate consciousness as a critical component of the ability to think and therfore feel and recognise emotions. I am sorry about this. I am not sure that everybody understands the concept of abstract thought. That is the thinking process that allows you to put a label to your feelings and or responses to externmal stimuli and call them emotions in the first place. Without this there is nothing because we would not recognise much less categorise any responses or feeling as anything. 

Without consciousness (abstract thought), every response to any stimuli in any environment from any organism is a baser response because it remains unrecognised and therefore uncategorised/labelled. That does not mean that the mother chimp feeding and nurturing her baby is not recognised and even the behaviour understood by either members of the troop. But what it does say is that without a conscious entity in attendance trying to put a label to the behaviour, there is no recognition of the behaviour as an emotion nor would it be categorised as anything other then a baser instinct to procreate and nurture the young of the species. Yet, when we as a conscious entity get involved as observers we not only categorise the behaviour but 9 out of 10 of us would even go so far as to give it an emotional label and call it love.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Longerostis
These posts are great [even if some of them do baffle me a little bit] and please keep dropping things in here
These are valid points that need to be thought about

Abstract thought
So if a baby chimp rolls onto its back as its mother licks it and seems to 'purr' it is reacting to external stimuli?
I think that is correct?
But because we cannot understand exactly what each 'purr' means we say this not an emotional response?
I think that is correct
But if a week old baby snuggles against its human parent we say this is an emotional response??

That is where I get lost


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## fugawi (May 16, 2011)

Ok, guys and gals, I think I have a good explanation to describe emotions. (It's my personal belief and way up for debate).

We recognise emotions by communications, written, language, posture, facial features. The first two, animals cannot use to communicate to us. The other two we compare to human responses. For example, we grin, showing our teeth, showing happiness. Most other animals would consider that as a threat, including chimps. A chimpanzee bares its teeth as a threat, not a smile. Ergo, different animals show different things in different ways to us. A snake doesn't have the facial muscles to smile when happy, can't write its feelings or speak its feelings in our language and we do not know or recognise the posture of a happy snake so we judge these things, comparing it to human ways of recognising emotions. This is not to say they don't have emotions, just means it is difficult for us to understand the subtle facial features and postures, animals such as reptiles show. The feelings and emotions we humans have are the result of subtle chemical changes within us. We humans communicate this as "feelings" or emotions. If you tickle a beardie under the chin, I would say that a slight chemical change, perhaps euphoric, slowly floods the Beardie and it closes its eyes and lifts its head in response. I therefore would call this "mild euphoric feeling" an emotional response in the same way that to tickle a child or stroking someones hair, can, give humans the same chemical euphoric response that we call joy, happiness etc.

Consciousness, abstract thought etc are only ways WE communicate and understand these chemical "feelings" and are unnecessary to actually having emotions.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Fugawi
I actually understood that without having to think too much
Well put together and hopefully will ignite some more debate


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## Elapidae1 (May 16, 2011)

I think Longirostris has it in the bag!!!

Many people including myself have put forward similar ideas but I think Longirostris explains it perfectly.
Despite our personal definitions of what constitutes emotion and our subsequent labeling of animal behaviours , it means absolutely diddly squat to the animal in question because it does not recognise it's behaviour as an emotion, therefore it isn't.


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## KaotikJezta (May 16, 2011)

So if the concept and wording for emotion had never been invented by humans it would be fair to say that what we display and call emotions, are not actually emotions. Given that emotion is an abstract concept invented by humans to label something we really don't understand. We would still more than likely display all the things we consider emotions, they just wouldn't have a label so do they then become instinct.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Steve
Do we know that animals cannot recognise their behaviour as emotions??
If we do know this; how do we know it??
Virtually every animal and most insects have means of communication that we are barely beginning to understand??


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## lizardmech (May 16, 2011)

longirostris said:


> There are 10 humans and 10 of whatever other animal you wish to choose in 2 seperate locations. There are 2 apple trees at each location with only 5 apples on each tree. Lets assume for arguements sake that the animals we have picked are apple eaters, you could pick any type of food you want to match the animals diet in the discussion. Everybody/animal needs to eat. The first problem that presents is how do we feed everyone when there is not enough food. Well the answer in humans is simple we think through the problem and divide the food up half an apple for each person. In the animals, it will be the strongest and fittest first. There will be some sharing particularly among mothers and siblings but otherwise instinct will prevail and the strongest will eat and the rest will go hungry.
> 
> Sorry longqi, unfortunately I acccidently posted so I will have to continue this post on a follow up, not enough time to do a complete edit and I had not finished with my discussion.


This is arguably still an instinct. Humans simply have some instinct to form a social group and assist each other. There's plenty of other animals that live in packs or hives and display similar seemingly altruistic behavior. 

It's hard to even say if humans are even capable of completely altruistic actions since they will inevitably feel some reward or pleasure from helping another.


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## longirostris (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Longerostis
> These posts are great [even if some of them do baffle me a little bit] and please keep dropping things in here
> These are valid points that need to be thought about
> 
> ...



Ah Longqi, good point and very succinctly put. My short response would be no it is not an emotional response. It is only an emotional response to the observer otherwise it is a perfect example of a baser response from the baby looking for comfort (more likely food) from its mother. In this scenario the mother is demonstrating a baser response also, the instinct in nurturing/protecting her baby. The mother would be aware of a physical feeling of pleasantness even euphoria brought about by the release of certain chemicals into her brain that comes with this nurturing process that she would give a label to as joy, happiness, love etc. 

The baby would be pretty much devoid of any feeling other then security from the physical presence of its mother. The baby would certainly not experience any emotional response as it has not yet formed any bond. The observers are the ones that try to categorise the behaviour as emotional by giving it a label usually "motherly love". I am pretty sure the mother does not really care about what is happening she just knows it is good. The interesting thing in this is that if I take the baby away from its natural mother and place it in an uncaring environment where the interaction with its peers is only as required to survive, the child is likely to grow up with minimal if any understanding of love, goodness, happiness, etc. 

Interesting arguement though Longqi amd it highlights the need for me to make a qualifing/clarifying statement as far as my previous comments are concerned. The 3 responses that I have referred to are not necessarily mutually exclusive. By that I mean you can have all three elements in a response to a stimuli. In fact I would argue that in every situation or stimuli there is virtually always an instinctive reaction initially and from there comes either the conditioned or cognitive response, very often both.


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## fugawi (May 16, 2011)

So steve, because an animal cannot communicate these chemical reactions we call feelings, in written or audible language that we understand, therefore they are not feelings. ( Not said nastily, just debating with reason).


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## longirostris (May 16, 2011)

lizardmech said:


> This is arguably still an instinct. Humans simply have some instinct to form a social group and assist each other. There's plenty of other animals that live in packs or hives and display similar seemingly altruistic behavior.
> 
> It's hard to even say if humans are even capable of completely altruistic actions since they will inevitably feel some reward or pleasure from helping another.



I was not trying to draw an analogy of social behaviours. I agree there are many animals that seem to be able to form social groups. I would even go as far as to say I see some evidence of this in my dragons, particularly Jacky dragons and Tommy Roundheads. Both species can be housed in largish numbers in an enclosure with no trouble or fighting at all. In fact I have described in a published paper written 15 odd years ago how I observed Jacky dragons wintering together in groups of 4 or more. 

The point of the analogy was to try to demonstrate the process of ANALYTICAL decision making Versus the process of instinctive behaviour in an environment where the parameters were not ideal or usually encountered. I have already acknowledged it was a poorly drawn analogy and did little to advance my arguement. 

I agree with your final comment on altruism in humans because as you rightly point out there is always a benefit even if it is just feeling good.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 16, 2011)

Well what a debate we have going. I still don't think that anyone has come up with any conclusive evidence, apart from say a lot of big words that I can't even spell let alone pronounce. The POLL is creeping ahead in peoples feelings towards yes.

Maybe we should give it to a real philosipher of science, (not saying you people are not) just not paid the big bucks.

I have another Idea that i could over the next few years breed some of my very affectionate placid snakes together & try to teach them some form of communication so as they can awnser this question for us, BUT of course that would take a lot of time & money to support such a program, so I would need CASH insentive of high value.

Looking forward to hearing a favourable response from you all.

Many thanks
Ian.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Everyone
This thread is awesome
It has gone far past anything I ever expected
I'm way past my comfort zone and thats possibly a good thing?

Although the votes seem to point slightly in one direction I hope everyone has gained more knowledge
Changed views entirely?? Perhaps not..... But prepared to consider possible alternatives??... Hopefully yes in either direction

Ian
Well I for one would happily throw 500,000 your way for that




Thats was Indonesia Rupiah Not dollars 
OK


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## Elapidae1 (May 16, 2011)

kaotikjezta said:


> So if the concept and wording for emotion had never been invented by humans it would be fair to say that what we display and call emotions, are not actually emotions. Given that emotion is an abstract concept invented by humans to label something we really don't understand. We would still more than likely display all the things we consider emotions, they just wouldn't have a label so do they then become instinct.



Whether we have given it a label or not is inconsequential, the difference is that as humans we are able to recognise it to give it a label. We understand that emotions are triggered by certain events, we have the ability to trigger these emotions and we often do so by seeking out situations and circumstances that cause us to become emotive. Emotions are also governed by the societies in which we live and are raised in. Animals don't have these abilities.



fugawi said:


> So steve, because an animal cannot communicate these chemical reactions we call feelings, in written or audible language that we understand, therefore they are not feelings. ( Not said nastily, just debating with reason).


 
Feelings or emotions? Which are we talking about? It's not that they can't communicate their emotions it's that they can't recognise emotion to communicate it in the first place.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 16, 2011)

longqi said:


> Everyone
> This thread is awesome
> It has gone far past anything I ever expected
> I'm way past my comfort zone and thats possibly a good thing?
> ...



So mate that comfort zone is that Emotion or a response????

I just had to ask.

I guess by now you guess that I voted NO that reptiles do not have emotions, that is my personal response or choice.

Let me say that a cold blooded animal that could eat its offspring or younger partner has no emotions or morals for that respect.
So how would we be regarded if we did such things ourselves, I guess we would be immoral & have no sense of emotions.

If I had to love a cold blooded bitch that maybe wanted to eat me, I would have second thoughts, I don't know about you.

The other thing is all they want to do is lay around, eat & **** & have sex once a year, how could you love something like that.

I for one am glad I am not a snake.

Food for thought.

Cheers
Ian.


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## redlittlejim (May 16, 2011)

Ok, im back with 2 days of results. as i had my one night off during the week i slept a god 16hours and only got to do the test once on the sunday. 

Sunday test 1: coastal. every time to me.
olive. wife twice. me twice.

monday test 1: coastal. first my wife, than me, than me. than me after 2 steps.
olive test one. wife, me, me, wife after 5 steps.

test 2: coastal, me, me, towards my wife and stoped at her feet. wife and stop at her feet again
olive, me, neither, neither, me after 3steps.

havent got as much time so i appreviating how i post.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 16, 2011)

So redlittlejim does this really prove anything? all good for your consertive efforts. I hope that they are not paying you as much as me.

Other thoughts that have come to mind is of some of the more caring reptiles that we have out there.

A mother Crocodile waits untill her eggs hatch & then carries them to the waters edge where they can be safe by her guard for some time.

I have seen a documentary that I can only presume is real, where a Monitor lizard had come back to a termite mound where she had layed her eggs some 9 months earlier to escavate them & let them out. NOW was that actually the mother & if so how can she remember where & the dates. If it was not the mother (just as example) was it another passing by Monitor that heard the eggs hatch & young cry out for release????????? A REALLY BIG QSTN.

Anyways still no proof.
Cheers
Ian.


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## souldoubt (May 16, 2011)

MR_IAN_DAVO said:


> So mate that comfort zone is that Emotion or a response????
> 
> I just had to ask.
> 
> ...



I know that your post is meant to be at least partly witty but that aside, some tribes/groups of humans have been cannabilistic 
I really couldn't believe that this act makes these tribes/group devoid of emotion


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## grimbeny (May 16, 2011)

From memory that one was filmed in someone's garage.


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## longqi (May 16, 2011)

Ian
Maybe my comfort zone is a response to a natural emotional instinct??

I love your last line
'anyways still no proof"

This debate has brought out so many things I had never considered

I wonder if this will happen???

"Now class of 2111. I want to show you just how silly people were only 100 years ago
This was a debate between people who had no access to the [insert name here] test or machine that categorically proved the all living creatures [do or do not [insert choice]] have emotions"

Great fun
Thanks to everyone who has commented on a fairly equally shared debate so far

Littleredjim
Nearly time for those photos
Well done mate and interesting results so far
Its not categorically proving anything but at least you found out you can fit in your wifes pants


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## SnakeyTroy (May 16, 2011)

Of course Reptiles have emotions. They feel angry sometimes, they feel happy sometimes, they feel frightened sometimes. these are all emitions and they can be clearly seen in all reptiles as they react to diferent situations.


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## Nagraj (May 16, 2011)

carterd said:


> ......
> Emotion has nothing to do with Biology.


 
If emotion has nothing to do with biology then why do H. sapiens have them?


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## redlittlejim (May 16, 2011)

photos will be uploaded next time. Though longqi, i dont fit her pants, there her stretchy pants  

although its not fully proven or will ever actually prove it. i for one seem to think that my coastal (more so than the olive) recognises me. or feels more safer with me. (therefore showing an emotion) why else would it always come to me even when trying to fool it with the scent/clothes swapping? im not saying it 'loves' me, but it shows something as even when it goes to my wife in my clothes its seems unsure if it wants to get as close. if there was no clothes swapping it always comes to everytime. what else could make it always be comfortable with me other than anyone else? body heat? i doubt from 5metres away it is going to seek me out in the middle of the day in cairns!

I have stated this before, 
a reptiles instinct is based on survival if they were to realize you are the key to their survival then they will trust you possibly even attach themselves to you. Do you think this is the "love" or "emotions" my coastal shows me? 
i really had never seen a lizard/snake or reptile of any species show any type of affection that wasn't a learned trait or an act of survival until i started to have favourites... coastal seems to show affection ​


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## fugawi (May 17, 2011)

Steve.....In this context feelings are emotions, you feel sad, you feel happiness. They are feelings because you quite literally feel them within your body. If you give it as a taken that emotions/feelings are the result of chemicals (I think they are called endorphins) being released into the body giving us these feelings/emotions and reptiles bodies are capable of releasing these endorphins(?) then therefore they must have feelings/emotions as well. Whether they have the intellect to communicate these emotions or not does not enter into it. Their body still receives the chemicals/endorphins whether they understand it or not.

Now to throw a spanner into the works...........
Can instincts be learned?
Are learned behaviours based on instinct?
Can you have instinctive emotions and learned emotions?

We're the fugawi


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

We're the fugawi ????
^^^
Almost as lost as I feel sometimes I reckon

Those questions can wait until after sleep I think


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## carterd (May 17, 2011)

Nagraj said:


> If emotion has nothing to do with biology then why do H. sapiens have them?


 
Emotion is of the soul, Instinct is of the body.
When you see a future Mate, your body responds, this is instinctive.
When you start to flurt and speak of love, this is Emotion .
We are all animals, Humans are different with emotions. Thats why we express good or evil.


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

^^^Carterd
1.....How exactly does science prove the existence of a human soul??
2... Fair enough
3.... So when a lioness responds to a lion by rubbing her nibbly bits all over him, which is obviously flirting, this is love??
4....But if that lioness shows love then we are not different??

Fugawi
Now to throw a spanner into the works...........OK socket or moveable.. we must be fair and choose our weapons

Can instincts be learned? I dont think so because then they wouldnt be instinctive??
Are learned behaviours based on instinct? Probably most of them would be in the wild but not in school??
Can you have instinctive emotions and learned emotions? .... Now that is the crux of the entire debate??

Just food for thought


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## Recharge (May 17, 2011)

longqi said:


> But if a week old baby snuggles against its human parent we say this is an emotional response??


 
quite simply, it's not an emotional response, it's purely instinct and a reaction to external stimuli, it's a survival trait.

emotion (as we humans experience it) doesn't develop until cognitive ability starts forming (I am unsure at which age this is)

the problem is what we term emotion, I have no doubt there are different forms of emotion, not just the human one, but we don't have the language or understanding to truly explain them and their differences.

just as we know (through high functioning autism) that emotion isn't entirely tied with cognitive ability.
(an autistic doesn't have the wiring in the brain to feel a range of emotions which differs between each autistic, they learn to estimate the social desired response from others)

when it comes to free will, to be free in the way we understand "free will" requires one to understand fully the ramifications of our decisions and responses, without that understanding, there is no "free" while animals may appear to have some limited "understanding" they simply do not have full self awareness, nor higher brain functioning that makes US what we are.
(there's more to this obviously, but it's too dificult and long winded to really go into)


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2011)

"Can you have instinctive emotions and learned emotions?"

I don't think emotions can be instinctive. Possibly all our emotions are learned, which is why different societies find some behaviours and attitudes, ETC more or less acceptable than others.

I don't know much about how the brain works or how endorphins are released, but I think that we have no natural control over our endorphins, we do however have the ability to rationalize that a chemical reaction has taken place within our bodies.


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## Wookie (May 17, 2011)

Only emotion I know they have is fear. They don't show affection or loyalty.

LOL Melissa you're so cold :lol:. Your posts make me laugh.


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## Elapidae1 (May 17, 2011)

Is fear an emotion?


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## Wookie (May 17, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Is fear an emotion?


 
I think so. Will have to look it up on the international list of defined emotions . But in seriousness; fear can be a response to stimuli, as can happiness. How can that not be coined an emotion?


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## longqi (May 17, 2011)

Wookie
I had kind of hoped Mellissa had stayed in here
She is obviously from a scientific background so could have dropped a few links etc in
You really do need two sides to keep a good discussion going


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## redlittlejim (May 17, 2011)

Wookie, do you think that a reptile cant show loyalty? A member on this site has a bearded dragon that will not leave his side when he is walking around the house and the door is open. i think that shows some loyalty?


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## Renenet (May 17, 2011)

Wow, the argument's still going - that's great. 

I wonder if we could approach this from a completely different angle, with an experiment.

Let's say we take a number of members from one species of reptile, enough to make a statistically relevant sample, and divide them into two groups. One group is provided only with the husbandry required for them to live healthy lives. The other group is provided with same _and_ treated as "a member of the family", as Longqi puts it. Then we follow them for a lifetime.

It would be interesting to see what the differences in longevity and illness rates would be, if any. If there were, it wouldn't prove or disprove the existence of emotions; however, it could give us an idea of how reptiles respond to being treated as pets. If the illness/mortality rates are higher in "pet" animals, it would suggest regular handling is a negative experience for them. If they feel any emotions at all, these are also likely to have been negative, though not conclusively so. With that rider, we could then say a little more certainly that the species involved is not likely to experience any kind of attachment to their keeper.

Obviously, we'd need to do it with several different species, both lizards and snakes, because there's a good chance there will be variations. Personally, I'd love to see what differences would be found between social and non-social species of lizards. The addition of subgroups could finetune the experiment. 

Another way to do it would be to get reptile keepers around Australia to fill out regular (voluntary) surveys. Either approach would draw out other interesting information as well.


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## fugawi (May 18, 2011)

just watching 20/20 which is a sort of yank current affairs show and they did a story on infomertials and how the marketing is designed to work on your emotions. They are designed to make your brain release dopamine, which brings on the pleasure emotion. How do we measure dopamine responses in reptiles?

If they have dopamine then don't they feel pleasure?


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

Fugawi
I think that is one of the major stumbling blocks because how would you measure pleasure responses in an animal that was stressing out by being restrained/probed/electro thingywhatsit or whatever they do to measure that stuff?
With a human you can explain what everything means and they will relax??

Renenet
Great idea with one probable drawback
That would be the time factor in that it would be a long term study
I think it could only be valuable if done under strict guidelines so personal observations by pet owners couldnt be classed as amorphism?? so that might rule out using individual keepers??


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## fugawi (May 18, 2011)

I was thinking the same thing longqi. If dopamine shows in the blood and you stroke the herp under the chin for a while, then you have to grab it and stick it with a needle, suck some blood and test it. In that time the herp will probably release the anger chemical, which probably cancels out the dopamine, giving the wrong result. You would probably need a catheter(?) in place to minimise the uncomfort.

By George I think I have it!!!
The answer!!!
St George Banks mascot is called .................(Dum, dum, dum, dum.)(Drumroll)....................Happy Dragon.........An Emotional Dragon.........They DO have emotions.LOL


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

^^^^^
Bloody brilliant


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## redlittlejim (May 18, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, if reptiles can show favorites towards a person doesn't that basically prove emotion? Attachment? That is a fairly easy test! Proved hundreds of times! If a pet always comes to you or chooses u over someone else everytime! Just like a dog always chooses you so can a reptile?


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## carterd (May 18, 2011)

steve1 said:


> Is fear an emotion?


 Only if you express it.


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## ianinoz (May 18, 2011)

Interesting program on SBS last night, dealt with animal emotions.


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## fugawi (May 18, 2011)

Do you know the name of the program?


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## SamNabz (May 18, 2011)

So has anyone tried this yet? I mentioned it back on page 16.




> Here's a little experiment for you or anyone; go get a mate of yours that doesn't frequent your house and/or collection, put a snake in the middle of the room and go on opposite sides of the room. If the snake goes to you (seeing as they are most peoples 'companions') let me know, however film it and show us.



Have also still seen people comparing mammals (inc. H.sapiens) to reptiles... Incredible


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## Jackrabbit (May 18, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> Wookie, do you think that a reptile cant show loyalty? A member on this site has a bearded dragon that will not leave his side when he is walking around the house and the door is open. i think that shows some loyalty?


 
Not sure that loyalty is an emotion.



redlittlejim said:


> Just out of curiosity, if reptiles can show favorites towards a person doesn't that basically prove emotion? Attachment? That is a fairly easy test! Proved hundreds of times! If a pet always comes to you or chooses u over someone else everytime! Just like a dog always chooses you so can a reptile?


 
Surely that just proves that the animal has learnt it will be "safe" with the person chosen or at least perceives no threat.
Not sure that can apply to a reptile. Most if not all reptiles have all their baser instincts when they are born. Animals like cats and dogs learn a lot as they grow up. That's how they become attached to someone. It isn't an emotional attachment, as shown by their ability to bite and attack the hand that feeds now and then.

Snakes will always bite if given the right circumstances. The fact that a snakes 'likes' to hang around your neck won't reduce the chances of it biting your hand if you were to hold a rat in it.



redlittlejim said:


> Just out of curiosity, if reptiles can show favorites towards a person doesn't that basically prove emotion? Attachment? That is a fairly easy test! Proved hundreds of times! If a pet always comes to you or chooses u over someone else everytime! Just like a dog always chooses you so can a reptile?



not really. People say they 'feel safe' when in a place or with someone. Is that an emotion? How do you describe the feeling of 'safe'. I think just because someone says they 'feel' something it doesn't have to be an emotional response.


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment every day for last few days
Results are being posted each day
Makes interesting reading

Jackrabbit
we have a baby burmese here only about 2metres long
It will push a rat off my hand then smash it
Only if I close my hand and tease it by covering the rat up, will it start getting ready to hit me
If the rat is just hung in front of it is smashes the rat first time every time

QUOTE}That's how they become attached to someone. It isn't an emotional attachment, as shown by their ability to bite and attack the hand that feeds now and then.
UNQUOTE

"Biting the hand that feeds you" is a human expression used to describe the equivalent of the same thing when done by humans??
But humans have emotions and animals dont???


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## SamNabz (May 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment every day for last few days
> Results are being posted each day
> Makes interesting reading



I have read some of his results and really cannot see anything that helps prove if they have emotions or not.



longqi said:


> Jackrabbit
> we have a baby burmese here only about 2metres long
> It will push a rat off my hand then smash it
> Only if I close my hand and tease it by covering the rat up, will it start getting ready to hit me
> If the rat is just hung in front of it is smashes the rat first time every time



I don't see what this is suppose to mean? Do you honestly think it is pushing the rat off your hand to avoid biting you?..

All these '_examples_' you Pro-emotion users keep posting are not conclusive *what so ever*. It is also a select few of you that keep liking each others posts, but really I don't see you achieving anything... There will always be 2 sides to this debate but the bottom line is, after all the tests etc. that have been done, reptiles run on instinct.

Just accept it, stop trying to domesticate them.​
Also the poll is definitely not worth going by for those who have mentioned it, I know of quite a few users who have voted 'Yes' for the fun of it...


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## fugawi (May 18, 2011)

Jackrabbit......Emotions are feelings, for instance pleasure is the release of dopamine into your body. You literally "feel" pleasure as the dopamine is released. If reptiles bodies release dopamine into their systems in a similar way then therefore they will have a similar "feeling" of pleasure or contentment. They will still "feel" the emotion but not necessarily "show" the emotion in the same way as us humans.

Sam......There is no bottom line yet. Have any of those tests involved monitoring the various chemicals in reptiles systems?


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## Snakeluvver2 (May 18, 2011)

I diesagree. 
Emotions are the personal interpretation of feelings.


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## fugawi (May 18, 2011)

Sam.......another thing. If reptiles run purely on instinct as you say has been conclusively proven beyond any doubt then explain why a pet Beardie does NOT show the initial survival instinct of flight or fight when it sees us? Yet a wild one will. It has therefore learned to suppress its natural instincts. We can then pick up the beardie and sit it on our shoulder where yet again it suppresses the instinct to run and just sits there. This simple experiment shows that they are NOT running purely on instinct.

Jannico.....You don't need to describe a feeling for it to become an emotional response.


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## SamNabz (May 18, 2011)

fugawi said:


> Sam.......another thing. If reptiles run purely on instinct as you say has been conclusively proven beyond any doubt then explain why a pet Beardie does NOT show the initial survival instinct of flight or fight when it sees us? Yet a wild one will. It has therefore learned to suppress its natural instincts. We can then pick up the beardie and sit it on our shoulder where yet again it suppresses the instinct to run and just sits there. This simple experiment shows that they are NOT running purely on instinct.


 
Fugawi,

I've seen, on more than 1 occasion, someone picking up a wild beardie without it putting up a fight, handling it as if it were a pet and even hand feeding one.

As I've mentioned before, it comes down to the individual reptile; some are docile while others are nightmares... So evidently, your point above means nothing, sorry.


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

Sam
Littleredjim and most other people have stated that this test does not prove anything and I agree
I was simply pointing out to someone else that a test similar to one they proposed was already being done

I honestly can find zero other reasons for that particular burmese to act the way it does
If anyone can think of any other valid reason please tell me
Note well; I am not suggesting that it avoiding biting me is an emotional response

Of course there are no conclusive proofs out there
But that actually goes both ways
Although science has some tests that at this time suggest that reptiles have no emotions even they do not pretend that they know everything about these lovely animals

The vote was added by Admin I think
I never asked for it to be put there and really would have liked to see a lot more "undecided/dont know" voters

Just accept it, stop trying to domesticate them.
I imagine someone yelled that at the first people who played with cats and dogs too??

In Australia we are so far behind the times in domesticating reptiles it isnt funny
On Facebook Youtube etc etc and in every country on Earth people are playing with reptiles in a domestic situation
Does that prove their reptiles have emotions??
It does not prove it categorically and beyond any shadow of doubt; which is what is required in a court of law
BUT
The scientific evidence so far presented here has exactly the same problem in that it also proves nothing beyond any shadow of doubt

This has been a great thread and hopefully will continue in the same way


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## fugawi (May 18, 2011)

Sam.....Actually it proves my point even more by individual animals, when confronted by a large prospective predator, can suppress their natural instincts. In fact it could also show individual levels of intelligence, smart or dumb, whichever the case maybe.


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

^^^
By far the best example of this is a snake that plays dead when people approach
It actually rolls over and looks dead
It only ever does this with humans
It doesnt do it with other animals because it "knows" they can detect life through many other ways
Therefore playing dead would not work
But humans usually just look at something at ignore all their other senses

Instinct??
Learned behaviour??
Reactive behaviour to stimuli??

Or could it be a slightly higher level of intelligence than we usually associate with reptiles??


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## SamNabz (May 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^
> By far the best example of this is a snake that plays dead when people approach
> It actually rolls over and looks dead
> It only ever does this with humans
> ...


 
Lol, wow longqi, that is a ridiculous claim. Animals behavioural instincts, fangs, claws, venoms etc. have nothing to do with protecting themselves against the human race. 

To think otherwise is a bit silly mate...


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment every day for last few days
> Results are being posted each day
> Makes interesting reading
> 
> ...



Well that Jackrabbit trick is really amazing!!! 
I don't think that I will try it with my hungry gutted Diamonds though, even though I think they may like me a bit I think that is asking too much of them as their senses I am sure will tell them food, bite anything that moves. But any time other than food, one could say they love me & let me do allmost anything to them.

This still does not prove emotions to me, more so a smart snake.
I think where the emotions come in is where people feel that they have an emotional interaction.

But I may be considered an unemotional bugger.

Cheers
Ian.


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## KaotikJezta (May 18, 2011)

It seems a lot of people are mixing up emotions as a chemical reaction that causes a feeling with human rationalisation of the feeling.


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

SamNabz said:


> Lol, wow longqi, that is a ridiculous claim. Animals behavioural instincts, fangs, claws, venoms etc. have nothing to do with protecting themselves against the human race.
> 
> To think otherwise is a bit silly mate...



Ian
Its just something that started by accident with two snakes out of a few hundred over the years
In both cases those snakes were wandering around doing snakey stuff while I fed others
I had a rat in my hand when opening a viv to feed another and the loose one nuzzled my hand
Lucy was a nice sized carpet
Luna is a two metre Burmese
I have deliberately repeated it several times with both snakes with the same result

Once again I am not attributing this to emotions

Sam
Just do a quick google on snake plays dead
After you have read the hundreds of reports where different species; including one pretty venomous one in Africa; apparently do this as a regular matter of course; then you can comment like that

I never said it was emotion or anything like that
But when you have an animal that reacts in such a manner there need to be questions asked
So I simply asked those questions
Is it instinct?? Instinct is supposedly formed before birth? and snakes were around long before humans??
Is it learned behaviour?? Snakes cannot learn as we have been told here so many times??
Reactive behaviour to stimuli?? How?

Not one word I said is incorrect
These various breeds include the real spitting cobra or rinkhals which can readily kill a human but instead usually play dead with head rolled back and mouth wide open
After you google you may want to ask who exactly was being silly??


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 18, 2011)

This Debate could go on forever with no definitive answer, only peoples perceptions.
I need another drink.
Cheers
Ian.


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## lazylizzy (May 18, 2011)

the look in my lace monitors eyes when i give them a nice warm bath to play in just shows they clearly love it. also, isnt being relaxed an emotion? you can clearly tell when they are relaxed or not


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## Jackrabbit (May 18, 2011)

longqi said:


> "Biting the hand that feeds you" is a human expression used to describe the equivalent of the same thing when done by humans??
> But humans have emotions and animals dont???


 
I am sure I am getting out of my depth here but when a human 'bites the hand that feeds' it not an emotional response. It is just an expression I a sure we all understand the meaning of. For animals I meant it to be a literal action of biting the hand with food in it. 

I am aware that there might be animals that won't/might not literally bite a hand with food in it, I am also sure we have all experienced a snake lunging at the glass as we pass by or when food is about to be offered. That doesn't mean it is angry but that it is keen to get at the food or may be a defensive response. Can you say that is an emotional response?


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## redlittlejim (May 18, 2011)

Well today sadly is the last day of the test cause i fed all my snakes tonight. and they will be to full for the next few days.
coastal : neither. me. me. me.
Olive : me. stopped at wifes foot. me after 2 steps. me.

did not get an afternoon test. 

Now although my olive seems to be completely random. I have to say that to me the original question .. DO REPTILES HAVE EMOTIONS.. is simply a yes. im not saying that they go in depth like love and hate. but they must have some level of emotion for the coastal to always come to me. it cant just be instinct. even if its because it views me as safer cause its used to me etc. the fact that it can recognise me compared to others (even when trying to trick it) shows some sort of emotion. feeling safe and comfortable lets off a emotion. maybe not love but the feeling is still there. they may not LOVE us but they cancertainly like us more than others.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 18, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> Well today sadly is the last day of the test cause i fed all my snakes tonight. and they will be to full for the next few days.
> coastal : neither. me. me. me.
> Olive : me. stopped at wifes foot. me after 2 steps. me.
> 
> ...



That is all fine to know that a reptile can find where its source of food,protection,& accotiated friends are, even if it does find you as a comfort spot rather than your partner, this does still not prove emotions.

I am sorry, I am not convinced.
Ian.


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## redlittlejim (May 18, 2011)

how can you feel anything without emotions. for it to feel protected and comfortable it has to have some form of emotion. scared for example of going to someone else rather than just coming to me everytime.


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## longqi (May 18, 2011)

TY TY TY Jim
Well done to have kept it going
Interesting results
Nothing definitely proven by them but hopefully some may wonder about it

Jackrabbit and Ian
Before this started many were convinced they were 100% correct with every detail either for or against
Maybe afterwards people from both sides might see things slightly differently
Nobody proved they do have emotions to a legal standard
Nobody proved they dont have emotions to a legal standard

Maybe thats how it was always going to be???
Maybe there is food for thought with some of the suggestions and answers??
And thats a great thing


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## redlittlejim (May 18, 2011)

NP NP NP longqi.
Got to keep the ball rolling with xxmelissaxx gone 
i honestly do not understand how something can have feelings but not emotions. may differ from humans but its still got to be there. i understand wild reptiles may act more on instinct but how can it just be down to instinct when a pet who is treated like family shows emotional responses?


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## Australis (May 19, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^
> By far the best example of this is a snake that plays dead when people approach
> It actually rolls over and looks dead
> It only ever does this with humans



Which snake species does this exclusively for _Homo sapiens_


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## carterd (May 19, 2011)

Hey longqi, i'm enjoying this thread.
What people need to understand, is that when you or your pets feel something in your body, this is not emotion. 
Emotion cannot be measured. 
Is desire an emotion ? No
Is personality an emotion ? No 
Do Reptiles have desire (intents of the heart) ? No
Do Reptiles have personality ? Yes 
Reptiles have personality, not emotion.
When totally non-emotional, decisions are made according to rules.
Humans have the emotional option to let bias influence there decisions.
Do Reptiles make decisions, based on emotion. I think not. They are bound by instinctive laws.
Do Reptiles have inspiration ? eg - music, emotion at it's best.
What you see in your Reptiles is Personality. 
What you feel, they feel, ( physically )But we add emotion, ( non-physical ).
When you are emotionally attached to your pets, of course you want them to have emotions back at you. I do


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## redlittlejim (May 19, 2011)

I think one of the points is that a reptile does make a decision base on emotion. Pushing rat off hand to eat cause it doesn't wanna hurt longqi for example.

Instinct wood be just to bite him. Or coastal coming to me. Instinct wood be to aliterate away don't u think


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## longqi (May 19, 2011)

Australis
Hemachatus haemachatus Ring Necked Spitting Cobra or Rinkhals [its not actually a cobra but looks identical]
Hognoses etc do this as well but they add a putrid musk to smell rotten and dont do it just for humans

Carter and Jim this thread had been really great
Possibly the thoughts raised will carry on 
That will be a very good thing

I must admit I do disagree with some of the posts here but lots of them leave questions that appear to have no perfect answer and that is a sign of a healthy debate


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## SamNabz (May 19, 2011)

longqi said:


> Australis
> Hemachatus haemachatus Ring Necked Spitting Cobra or Rinkhals [its not actually a cobra but looks identical]
> Hognoses etc do this as well but they add a putrid musk to smell rotten and dont do it just for humans



longqi, I don't deny that there are snakes that use that defence mechanism as I have seen it on a few doco's, however to state that they do it *exclusively* for humans is nonsense... No animal is equipped with it's '_artillery' _to protect themselves from us.



redlittlejim said:


> I think one of the points is that a reptile does make a decision base on emotion. Pushing rat off hand to eat cause it doesn't wanna hurt longqi for example.
> 
> Instinct wood be just to bite him. Or coastal coming to me. Instinct wood be to aliterate away don't u think


 
Sorry red, but how am I meant to believe that your snakes came to you when you and the wife were at opposite ends of a room? I recall asking who ever did such a thing to record it for all to see.

As for it coming to you (if in fact it did), you were most probably the warmest 'spot' in the room.


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## SYNeR (May 19, 2011)

Emotions in humans are quite often not rationalised. Therefore I don't think it's much of a stretch to say reptiles have emotions.
If you do some reading on trolley studies (often referred to as 'trolleyology'), general moral theory and neuroscience, this seems to be the way things are.

A common example given in psychological studies is something along the lines of "A brother and sister decide to have protected sex". Most people will be repulsed, but unable to rationalise their feelings.. To some scientists, it would appear evolution has equipped us with a natural revulsion towards incest (for obvious reasons), however in this circumstance, people still fail to rationalise their feelings (given the act is protected and will not result in children). A *lot* of people work from gut instinct and fail to rationalise their feelings and emotions.

A similar thing is said to be case for homophobia, too.

Reading:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/293/5537/2105.abstract

Joshua Greene's studies are especially good:

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/

This is particularly important:


> Our research indicates that there is no dedicated “moral sense” or “moral faculty.” Instead, moral judgment arises from interactions among dissociable cognitive systems, many of which—perhaps all of which—are not specifically dedicated to moral judgment. In light of this, we aim to understand how moral judgment is shaped by the operating characteristics of these disparate systems. These include systems that enable cognitive control, reward-seeking behavior, the representation of actions, and sensory imagery.


 
Evolutionary (moral) psychology:

http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/emotion.html


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## longqi (May 19, 2011)

Sam
Every other snake is fight or flee
With Rinkhals their usual first defence is to raise the hood and hood and hiss then spit at any any animal [fight??]
If that fails then they play dead
But if the animal approaches too closely they spit
But with humans they play dead first in by far the majority of cases
I watched a guide in Rhodesia pick up a 'dead' one and briefly handle it before putting it back down
No movement from the snake
We moved away about 50metres and off it went
I an not saying that is emotions
But how did they learn to do it that way??

Red did his best with limited tools and time frame etc etc
Even he said it was not a scientific test conducted in a scientific manner
The results were not conclusive but he believes that something changed and reported it
We cant ask for much more than that at this time??

A similar test is going to be carried out in about a month
I am selecting the reptiles now
Probably a 5yr old iguana and I already know exactly the result of that one
Then 2 burmese and a retic which may have a different result
Because I will have time I will have video set up etc and will try to get independent observers
Do I believe that it will positively prove emotions???
Not at all
[But I do like some of my girlfriends clothes]

Snyder
That common example nearly put me off my breakfast....... but I get your point


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 19, 2011)

longqi said:


> Australis
> Hemachatus haemachatus Ring Necked Spitting Cobra or Rinkhals [its not actually a cobra but looks identical]
> Hognoses etc do this as well but they add a putrid musk to smell rotten and dont do it just for humans


 
I would have to disagree with you here! This is untrue. Rinkhals performs this behaviour for most of the larger mammals in Africa.


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## longqi (May 19, 2011)

Ok Cool
I stand corrected 
Even though having been there done that, and listened to what local tribesman and the guide said I had believed it for many years
They totally all believed this to be true
Their main reason for saying this, was that all other predators can sense life so will ignore a play dead signal
Humans dont bother using those senses and rely on their eyes

But thats ok
I am more than happy to learn new things
Thanks for setting me straight


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## fugawi (May 19, 2011)

Humans have been in africa for 10 000 yrs, before that human predecessors date back around 100 000yrs. Plenty of time interacting to evolve specialised defences.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 19, 2011)

It has certianly been a healthy debate, I cannot say that it has changed my mind, but it certainly does makes me think about the question being debated. I look forward to hearing about future experiments & you certainly won't see a film of me in my wifes clothes.

Cheers
Ian.


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## longqi (May 19, 2011)

^^^^^
That response is excellent

[Shame about the clothes bit though]


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## fugawi (May 19, 2011)

It's funny, he says we wont see FILM of it. Not denying it.LOL


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 19, 2011)

fugawi said:


> It's funny, he says we wont see FILM of it. Not denying it.LOL



LOL yah no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.You may see the nieghbours on the weekend looking at my place wondering if I have lost the plot, nah just drunk again.

Cheers

The other thing is, what makes reptile keeping so exciting or invigorating to me is that the reptiles cannot communicate in our
language, so you have to work out for yourself what they are trying to communicate.

Cheers


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## Elapidae1 (May 19, 2011)

They aren't trying to communicate anything that would require emotions and abstract thought,LOL


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## SYNeR (May 19, 2011)

steve1 said:


> They aren't trying to communicate anything that would require emotions and abstract thought,LOL



No. Reread my previous post, and read the associated literature. Often emotion doesn't correlate too highly with abstract-though, increased cognitive abilities, etc.


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## longqi (May 19, 2011)

^^^^^^
Would a psychopath be an example of one who lacks emotions but often has high levels of both intelligence and cognitive abilities??


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## SYNeR (May 21, 2011)

I haven't looked at psychopathy much, but my understanding is that they tend to lack empathy, feelings of guilt, etc. They may feel other pleasurable emotions at the thought and act of killing people, though.


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## IzzyBeardieLover (May 21, 2011)

YES! Who can't say their beardie hasn't gotten excited when the crickets come out?


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## Cockney_Red (May 21, 2011)

longqi said:


> ^^^^^^
> Would a psychopath be an example of one who lacks emotions but often has high levels of both intelligence and cognitive abilities??


 
That would be A Sociopath, of which I, keep a few examples...


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## Defective (May 21, 2011)

IzzyBeardieLover said:


> YES! Who can't say their beardie hasn't gotten excited when the crickets come out?


 
or pinkie rats in my case!


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## thoma1234 (May 21, 2011)

I vote yes i believe they do.


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## cement (May 22, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> NP NP NP longqi.
> Got to keep the ball rolling with xxmelissaxx gone
> i honestly do not understand how something can have feelings but not emotions. may differ from humans but its still got to be there. i understand wild reptiles may act more on instinct but how can it just be down to instinct when a pet who is treated like family shows emotional responses?



Maybe at a large stretch I could say that reptiles might feel emotions.....BUT how exactly does your family pet SHOW emotion?
And if your talking about a snake, I can't wait to hear it!


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## longqi (May 23, 2011)

Cement
We have several that display things very differently to others
Whether or not it is because of emotion I have no idea

But one Burmese wants to kiss women
Maybe not strange as its a young male but most of our customers do tend to get a bit nervous when he goes there
Every time a woman wants to hold it we have to explain that its not going to bite but will probably want to kiss her
It does try for a kiss either directly on on very close to the lips in 80% of cases of women holding it
Also kisses me but no other males

Iguana was wild caught as an adult
Pretty bloody savage thing with claws just like a varanus and just as strong
Within three months its handler had it toilet trained etc etc
When she has time off it sulks and has to be coaxed to feed etc
As soon as shes back it follows her round like a puppy dog until she has played with it enough

Most of our snakes wild caught
On any given day 1 burmese 1 retic and 2or3 chondros will be hanging around the shop on branches or floor etc
As soon as anyone walks in they immediately show interest
Some retics and burmese and 2of 8 chondros will actively slide down from their perches to be snuggled? Desire of comfort??

4m retic that had been pretty badly mistreated
It will attack from absolute safety deep in its hide with zero provocation?? Hatred??

Probably there are reasons which exclude any of these from being emotions
But most keepers have had similar experiences where one snake or lizard is very different to others in exactly the same situation
We can simply explain that by saying they each have different personalities?
Maybe to have a 'personality' you need to have emotions?

That was a very short list I gave that anyone who comes here can see every day and that is why I used them
Maybe its just my training methods?
Maybe its "I dont know"


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## whiteblaze786 (May 23, 2011)

^^ lovely reply, these animals are truly beautiful and can be misunderstood by people.. My tigers each have their own personalities, they each have their own routines, one of my female tigers was given to me as a rescue.. she was very underweight and nearly dead.. this snake was wild caught and otherwise very aggressive, you couldnt get near the enclosure without her rearing up and striking/hissing after she gained health and weight she showed no aggression toward me at all, yet anyone else she would hood, hiss and strike.. Whatever anyone else thinks, this snake showed something that day...


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## SamNabz (May 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> But one Burmese wants to kiss women
> Maybe not strange as its a young male but most of our customers do tend to get a bit nervous when he goes there
> Every time a woman wants to hold it we have to explain that its not going to bite but will probably want to kiss her
> It does try for a kiss either directly on on very close to the lips in 80% of cases of women holding it
> Also kisses me but no other males


 
longqi, where do you come up with this stuff? Honestly..? Since when do snakes 'kiss' anything? They don't even kiss their own species...

Let this thread die already...


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## longqi (May 23, 2011)

Sam 
All I can say is bring your gf to play with it
this particular snake touches lips to lips on far too many occasions for it to be nothing 
I dont know what else to call it other than kissing???
If you have any suggestions please let me know

Maybe sometime check out facebook [email protected]
Might be worth a gander


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## D3pro (May 23, 2011)

longqi said:


> Sam
> All I can say is bring your gf to play with it
> this particular snake touches lips to lips on far too many occasions for it to be nothing
> I dont know what else to call it other than kissing???


 






But being fair, I will allow you to test your theory with this here snake by kissing it on the lips:


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## LiamJay (May 24, 2011)

I am new to keeping reptiles, but after only a week or so of having our 2 central bearded dragons at home with us I can answer unequivocally yes. Yes I do think reptiles have emotions. Our female Coco is definitley the boss and as my 8 year-old son calls her 'the heater hog'. She gets herself right under the heatlamp and won't let the male anywhere near it. I am aware that this is probably a dominance thing, but what female doesn't like to be toasty warm on a cold night? Spike the little male is definitley the cheekier of the pair and loves being carried around inside your jumper. I almost accidently took him shopping with me the other day because I forgot he was in there, oops . They definitley have distinct characters, so one could argue that if reptiles don't have emotions, wouldn't they all have the same personalities?


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## longqi (May 24, 2011)

D3pro said:


> But being fair, I will allow you to test your theory with this here snake by kissing it on the lips:



Just to be fair about this I will raise your supposedly savage snake with another one that probably trumps yours
This albino cobra is milked after the show to demonstrate that it has not been tampered with in any way
Usually it is Aga and Yanz, a couple, who do this every single day, but in this shot it was just a stranger picked from the crowd
Once again I am NOT saying that this proves emotions


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 24, 2011)

Hey Peter,
I think that you are onto something here.
The people in the show obviously have no emotions, that is for fear anyway, & the snake obviously has emotions of friendliness towards the fools.

Cheers
Ian



longqi said:


> Just to be fair about this I will raise your supposedly savage snake with another one that probably trumps yours
> This albino cobra is milked after the show to demonstrate that it has not been tampered with in any way
> Usually it is Aga and Yanz, a couple, who do this every single day, but in this shot it was just a stranger picked from the crowd
> Once again I am NOT saying that this proves emotions
> ...


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## D3pro (May 24, 2011)

that cobra is in a defensive position? and don't many of those shows dope their snakes up with opium? (they did at my last trip lol)


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## Tristan (May 24, 2011)

can any one state that they believe their pets have no personality? as in this snake has a disposition to be snappy and aggro, or this one is calm and placid? i find it difficult to believe you can have a personality with out emotion and from a reading on personalities the attributes that define a personality are themselves defined by the emotions from actions taken by an individual.

so do those of you that claim your pets have no emotion also claim they have no personality?


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## longqi (May 24, 2011)

Ian
By the amount of sweat and 'adrenalin come down' involved after a show I think they both know what fear is
But they both do love their snakes even though both have been bitten

D3pro
A few years ago that was very true
That is if they didnt have their mouths taped up or wired shut
But believe me when you see Aja tip out about 20 cobras into the floor of the stage and then literally dance with them as they wriggle into position for her part of the show, you can see very quickly that these are just active strong snakes much like our RBBs
Not as fast as a Taipan by any means
But a lot faster than any carpet
I have done this once only to prove to myself I could do it but wont do it again

Yanz gets his favourite cobra to place its mouth inside his mouth and gently holds it there with his teeth while he walks around the stage
Aja reaches into boxes full of Boiga Dendrophila while blindfolded, and lifts them out a few at a time etc etc etc

Is that cobra in a defensive position??
In the wild they often raise up like that just to look around
Usually in attack position they also coil more to get more impetus into the strike

As stated before these do not prove emotions but possibly offer a slightly different perspective???


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 24, 2011)

Tristan said:


> can any one state that they believe their pets have no personality? as in this snake has a disposition to be snappy and aggro, or this one is calm and placid? i find it difficult to believe you can have a personality with out emotion and from a reading on personalities the attributes that define a personality are themselves defined by the emotions from actions taken by an individual.
> 
> so do those of you that claim your pets have no emotion also claim they have no personality?



Well Tristan this is the big problem with sorting out personalaity,emotions,love etc.
I have many snakes that i accept are different or have different traits or how they have been raised or educated, but it is hard for me to recognise that they have a personality. DOES the personality come from what I do with them to make them that way or do they show feelings in a different way.
Sure I guess you look at it from a perspective that we have been taught or raised with that this is what we have been taught to persieve as personalty. IS IT? or are just just responding to instict or what they have been taught or led that way????

Cheers


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## Defective (May 24, 2011)

longqi said:


> Just to be fair about this I will raise your supposedly savage snake with another one that probably trumps yours
> This albino cobra is milked after the show to demonstrate that it has not been tampered with in any way
> Usually it is Aga and Yanz, a couple, who do this every single day, but in this shot it was just a stranger picked from the crowd
> Once again I am NOT saying that this proves emotions
> ...


 

i'll raise you that...for this




^^that's scarier


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## kawasakirider (May 24, 2011)

Ugh I have catching up to do.

I was watching YouTube videos where alligators were trained to lie down and stay. The guy at the zoo was on the mic, and every time he counted and got to "three" the alligator would drop on it's belly and lie still.

Longqi, that kissing photo is insane. That is a big cobra!!!


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 24, 2011)

So now alligators have emotions, I suppose that they are reptiles to. 
Our Crocodiles love people(indigenous & american tourists) But I did not know that they were that emotional about what they ate.
The guy on the mic did not offer his advice on how the alligators had been trained to this to receive food rewards????


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## longqi (May 24, 2011)

Ian
I will agree with you on this one
Never met a croc or gator that I felt I could trust

Now I wonder if that guy who used to scrub his big rescued gator it its pond still has both his arms
Think he was from Puerto Rica


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## sagara_cp_2006 (May 24, 2011)

I think yes. Snakes are like any other animals, they feel pain, hunger and a range of emotions.


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## longirostris (May 25, 2011)

Tristan said:


> can any one state that they believe their pets have no personality? as in this snake has a disposition to be snappy and aggro, or this one is calm and placid? i find it difficult to believe you can have a personality with out emotion and from a reading on personalities the attributes that define a personality are themselves defined by the emotions from actions taken by an individual.
> 
> so do those of you that claim your pets have no emotion also claim they have no personality?



Short answer. Yes. What a ridiculously human concept, reptiles have personality. You see what you want to see. You look for what you want to find. You interpret programmed response behaviours using human concepts such as personality and emotions, really. I'll just go and grab one of my dragons out of their enclosure and give it a kiss. If it doesn't bite me I will declare to all on this forum it is returning my kiss and that as a consequence it loves me. Possible proof that reptiles have emotions and personality. If it bites me or tries to escape I will find a human concept to explain that away as well. Could not possibly be a normal behaviour, could it? Of course not. I know my dragon loves me. 

What some of you need to understand is that there are thousands of researchers all over the world in hundreds of universities, institutes and other research facilities right now as I write this, conducting thousands of experiments with all kinds of different species trying to prove that animals other then humans have emotions. This research has been going on for decades if not even longer. Guess what, to this very day NO DEFINITIVE PROOF that any animal, has emotions let alone the capacity for abstract thought. 

Sure there are several researchers who "claim" they have the definitve proof. Then they turn around and publish their research result in a manner that in many cases is ambiguous in its arguement, very often incorporating skewed data and usually always with a closing comment for more research to be undertaken before a definitve conclusion can be drawn. You only have to go to the field of taxonomy for examples of how this process works. Ah, but I digress.

I myself read a recent study involving chimpanzees conducted by Japanese researchers at a Japanese facility where the chimps were given joystick controllers and then presented with problems they needed to solve using the josticks. As a result of their research these scientists proudly proclaimed they had proof positive that their chimps were using abstract thought to problem solve. Why then has this research not been heralded as ground breaking and lauded throughout the world. 

Simple answer, because the experiments cannot demonstrate a freedom of bias in all matters needed to demonstrate such a profound conclusion as abstract consciousness in an animal. Even my untrained but inquiring mind could find questions that were not satisfactorily addressed. I will not go into the problems with the experiments, but the very existence of even one problem that can bias an outcome makes any conclusion questionable at best and depending on the bias, irrelevant or worthless at worst.

What I find interesting about all this research is the amount of it being conducted to try and find evidence of what more then two thirds of people in this thread already believe to be the case (and a percentage of that number again, claim is definately the case), that animals have emotions and personalities. Interesting in that I am unaware of and there appears to be nowhere near the same amount of energy, effort or research going into proving that animals are behaviourial in responses to stimuli and do not have the capacity for abstract thought. I have no doubt there is some being done or been done but the bulk of what is happening is focussed on proving that animals do have emotions. No doubt what I said earlier applies even in the case of researchers. "You look for what you want to find". 

Longqi, you really have thrown a cat in amongst the pigeons by starting this little debate. I am still trying to work out whether you are sitting back, tongue in cheek, having a giggle stirring the pot or you are actually fair dinkum with some of the comments you have posted. Every single arguement I have seen presented by every single person who has posted an example of a behaviour they have witnessed from one of their animals or some other animal elsewhere, I could reasonably argue demonstrates nothing more then a behaviourial response. 

The problem for me is the fervour and conviction that comes through with some of the topic posters in the affirmative on this subject is, that it is almost religous in its zeal. I have sat out of this debate for days because of it. You cannot argue with believers and that is the problem with this debate. Too many people are basing there opinions on what they want to see and believe. It appears everybody has a point of view on this subject hence the small number in the poll who have declared that they do not know. Some opinions are well balanced, some are well researched, some are educated, some are emotional, some are silly to others and to others they are not. I guess if I can be pragmatic about this discussion the right response from all of us on this subject is the one chosen by the fewest of us. I agree with your comment and surprise earlier in the topic when you pointed this out. But then that in itself says something about us as humans. 

Please don't get me wrong her. Nothing would give me greater pleasure then to know that when I hold my staffy's head in my 2 hands and look into her eyes and tell her how much I love her, that I could actually know, rather then feel that she is giving me back the same love with the look in her eyes towards me. But I know that right at that point in time there is no scientific evidence that she does anything other then just stay still and look back into my eyes devoid of any emotion. What she will be doing is looking for signs in my demeanor towards her (through facial expression or other means) of how the current situation will likely pan out for her. If I smile she will relax. If I start laughing and speaking excitedly to her she will start to wag her tail and get excited. If a frown comes on my face she may try to look away. If I give off a gutteral growl with she will most likely try to move away. I think you follow my thought process. But hey that does not mean that I don't "feel" her love. I feel it because that is what I want to feel.


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## longqi (May 25, 2011)

Longirostris
The debate was started as just a simple question that I thought might get some interesting replies
The way it kept going was to a far greater extent than I would ever have imagined
As I said at the start I was simply Devils Advocate
I cannot stress enough how impressed I have been by some of the points brought forward by both sides
Hopefully now more people may be less certain of their previously 'fixed' position

It would be interesting to do the poll again now
Maybe the "I'm not sure' vote would increase by a pretty decent percentage???


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 25, 2011)

longirostris
Well said & I could not agree more.

I think most have been letting their emotions tell them what they want to think.

Cheers
Ian


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 25, 2011)

longirostris said:


> Even my untrained but inquiring mind could find questions that were not satisfactorily addressed.



Untrained? Nothing wrong with the way you think. By far the best post in this thread.


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## Naga_Kanya (May 25, 2011)

xxMelissaxx said:


> I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.
> 
> I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity



Melissa, I'm incredibly interested in this, even if I'm coming late to the party. If it's not too much trouble would you mind PMing me with the articles too? My best friend's a philospoher in the field of cognitive science - we have long talks about the issues of measuring animal cognition, and it's something I'm very interested in, both from an academic perspective, but also from personal interest as an animal keeper/pet owner. If you could that would be great!



xxMelissaxx said:


> I am unsure, but I am not discounting it. Perhaps on a certain level they recognise recurring stimuli that is unique to the keeper? This does not necessarily mean that they recognise the keeper as a person, or the key to their survival etc.


 
I may be doubling up on what others have already posted (I'll find out as I read down I guess), but I think most definitely that snakes can recognise an individual. I haven't seen anything approaching emotion in my snakes, (though like most humans I do tend to describe their actions in emotional terms for my own amusement/good story-telling, it's not what I *objectively* believe) but my Prossie and Stimsons both come straight to me like arrows if they're outside and something threatens them, or if I hand them to someone else and they're not comfortable with them. I particularly had a "breakthrough" with Guin (my Proserpine) a little while after I got her from her previous owner who hadn't handled her in over 2 years. Guin was snappy and anti-social, and I did a *lot* of work gentling her and getting her acclimatised to being handled again. One night I had her out with me on the back patio for ages; it was chilly and she snuggled up in the small of my back, under my jumper. After that, she stopped being snappy, and when I took her out, if something startled her she'd make a beeline for me and wrap around me until she felt confident enough to head off exploring again. 

I don't kid myself that this was "love"; rather it seems a recognition that "this creature = safety/warmth", but she does it to the point that a number of others have commented on it. She also now lets me wrap my hand entirely round her head, when she doesn't like others touching her there. Again, I think that's a familiarity response rather than affection, but it does indicate trust to a certain degree, to me (which I find touching enough, without needing it to be love). I don't think she needs to have emotion to experience that, but I'm prepared to keep an open mind.



cement said:


> Well now your anthropomorphioghkr (what ever the hell that word is) my post. How you pick up an accusatory way is beyond me. Its great that you are so keen to get across your point (however, you admit yourself that you don't have enough experience to have formed an opinion.)
> When it comes to showing emotion, it mostly comes from facial expression. I have seen drawings of monkeys with different fascial expressions for each of their emotions, it helps the zoo keepers to read the animal.
> To "show no emotion" is a form of fascial expression. Its a blank look. People in court have it, as they hear their sentences being read out when they know they are guilty and have lost all control over their life. I am sure you have heard the term
> 'Showing no emotion'.
> ...


 
Emotion in animals is not transmitted solely - or in some animals mainly - through the face. Anyone who has kept pets or spent time studying wild animals will know that there are a vast array of responses indicating states of mind or 'emotional' states which are completely non-facial - muscle tension in various parts of the body, tail response, breathing changes, movement of limbs, even angles of the head and neck, which are close to the face without being facial, etc. I've worked with horses for nearly 30 years; they have a huge array of non-facial communications. My reptiles do too, to a lesser degree (admittedly it's harder when you're pretty much just a tube). I can tell a lot about what "mood" they're in by their body language. We as humans communicate to a large extent by using our faces, so it stands to reason we instinctively try to do the same with other animals. But, in the same way we would need to learn French to speak properly with someone from France, we also need to learn animal to understand them, rather than judging them by our standards. It took years for scientists to ascertain that cats were not less intelligent than dogs, because they were testing them both in the same ways. For years, our best and brightest thought you could test a pack animal and a solitary hunter using the same reward/problem-solving tests. As an intelligence test for humans that doesn't speak volumes.



souldoubt said:


> Sorry to hijack your post but I believe birds (or at least some species of birds) can problem solve. It has been shown that crows can make tools, carry out a task and they are actually capable of teaching it to others. Crows also effectively eat cane toads by flipping them onto their back and avoiding the poison glands.
> This is a good example of a crows ability to problem solve and yes it has been studied scientifically YouTube - Tool-Making Crows



I'm also interested in ideas of animals and play, when it comes to demonstrations of abstract thought. There was an observation from people studying cephalopods recently that octopi were displaying traces of mischief and a sense of humour (from memory one of the octopi in question was sneakily squirting its keepers down the back of their neck, then flushing with the "pleasure" colour), and what that might mean in animal terms. Many domestic animals have quite a sophisticated sense of play. I haven't seen this in snakes, and I don't have lizards (yet!) to observe, so I'm not sure this relates to reptiles, but it's another way to think about abstract thought in animal cognition.

Thanks so much for this thread, Longqi. It's made for some fascinating reading, and made me want to do a lot more reading into the subject. I'm also interested to hear of any more anecdotal evidence (like RedLittleJim's experiments). Thanks everyone.


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## redlittlejim (May 25, 2011)

i find it funny that there seems to be more people who think that they have emotions and are yet open to the fact that they may not compared to people who dont and there more closed minded. i think its a good point on both sides and considering where we are at now in science etc etc the real answer is... NOBODY KNOWS


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (May 25, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> i find it funny that there seems to be more people who think that they have emotions and are yet open to the fact that they may not compared to people who dont and there more closed minded. i think its a good point on both sides and considering where we are at now in science etc etc the real answer is... NOBODY KNOWS



The other point is that you have to DEFINE emotions first before you can really awnser the question.


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## indyspotted (May 25, 2011)

yes, my Stimmie hatchling hates me, lol I think hate is an emotion isn't it? ( I know your probaly thinking, he dosn't hate me, he is just scared of me and being defensive, but your wrong!!lol he is plotting my death, i see it in his beady little eyes)


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## longqi (May 25, 2011)

We will have a definite answer about animal emotions in about 3 hours
This test will prove everything beyond any shadow of doubt



Im off the watch State of Origin now at the toughest pub in Bali
I will wear an AFL jumper and take video of how the animals react


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## Naga_Kanya (May 25, 2011)

longqi said:


> Im off the watch State of Origin now at the toughest pub in Bali
> I will wear an AFL jumper and take video of how the animals react



Same as with that python on your bed Longqi; regular updates, so we know you're alright.


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## redlittlejim (May 25, 2011)

my water python proposed to me! thats love and devotion... unless she is just after my money but i will have a prenup


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## Naga_Kanya (May 26, 2011)

redlittlejim said:


> my water python proposed to me! thats love and devotion... unless she is just after my money but i will have a prenup



Now that is a surprise. After your experiments I'd have sworn blind it was going to be the coastal that proposed; that was some impressive showing of fidelity there.


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## longqi (Sep 14, 2011)

Just a side question

Do humans deny animals can have emotions simply because of the way we treat most animals??
..


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## hrafna (Sep 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Just a side question
> 
> Do humans deny animals can have emotions simply because of the way we treat most animals??
> ..


 or beacure humans wish to seperate themselves from animals?


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## alrightknight (Sep 14, 2011)

longqi said:


> Just a side question
> 
> Do humans deny animals can have emotions simply because of the way we treat most animals??
> ..



I believe humans like to consider whether they do or not when it best suits humans. Now imagine someone working in an abattoir , They could believe animals to have no emotions to morally justify themselves. Yet they could go home to a pet dog, which they love and and believe loves them.


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## MR_IAN_DAVO (Sep 14, 2011)

There is a difference between Reptiles & Mammals for a start, & to go even further Does brine shrimp have emotions??????

Cheers
Ian


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## ianinoz (Sep 14, 2011)

The more time I spend with and interacting with my little adopted “child” Lizzy - The House Skink, the more I am convinced she is very cleavour, and that she genuinely enjoys hanging out with me.

She asks me for food treats when she's hungry (comes up to me and from about 12" away looks into my eyes and gives me the hungry lizard stare and she is so gentle in how she takes the treat of my open hand or from between my finger tips. If she finds a bug on the floor or a bug in her food treat dish she slams it. Her behaviour is different when taking a bug off me.

She has days wheh she wants something different as a treat, she’ll check the food offering ans then will refuse it and look at me and will be insistant about it until she realises I wont give in (sometimes I don’t) or she decides after a few days that “bugger it – I’m hungry”.

She stays close to my hand and assumes the "tickle me under under the chin please position" quite regularly (sometimes with each bug I give her) and even leans into to tickling finger. I enjoy tickling her under the chin as much as she enjoys being tickled. Is this her being affectionate ?

She chooses to be with me, she's not hungry everyday that she pays me a visit, (So the food incentive is not why she's hanging out) and she regularlly hangs out with me for 3 or 4 hours (spends a lot of that time in floppy sleepy lizard mode - totally confortable in very close proximity to me .... this is a wild and not a "domesticated never been free" eastern water skink and she is totally free to come and go and anything she wants and has the freedom and run of the house and I know she regularly spends time outside (I've seen her sunning herself on my front patio, watching me from unde the aircon compressor unit - her regenerating tail is a give away and I now recognise her side markings).

I think she also likes being spoken to, as she will look straight back up me and seems to be paying attention . I don’t think she understands me, but I think she associates my voice with pleasureable things.

If she gets a super treat – a nice juicey live cricket (hand fed by me, I give her one every 4 or 5 days or a thawed out frozen cricket every week or so if my stock is limited) she gets really animated ofter she’s got it (it’s a special treat for her), becomes a crazy lizard, runs and crawles and climbes about on the lounge room furnature liks a lizard who’s possessed – same if she catches a nice juicey bug (cockroach or spider) when she goes on one of her hunting patrols.

When I pick up the mealworm tub and start getting a few of them out and putting them into a little hospital pill cup she knows what’s coming and she comes over and is clearly anxious for her mealworms (she loves them more than anything other than a cricket).

Inquisitive !! hell yeh .... anything new on the floor or on the lounge gets her intimate inspection as soon as she spots it.
We now warn everyone who visits to not put any open bags or other things she is likely to get qurious about and can climb into , on the floor or the lounge or anywhere she might go, we may not see her, she makes herself scarce when visitors call , but she may do a clandestine inspection.

She's amazing.


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## Australis (Sep 25, 2011)

Of all threads to spam lol maybe a good one to find some suckers on


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## Raina (Sep 25, 2011)

It would be great to see academic proof that reptiles have emotions, but I believe it's still a mammalian response.
The other day a woman brought her dog to the vet claiming it had a headache. She gave it a panadol...


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-37.864251,144.902576


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