# V.indicus and V.indicus "blue phase"



## CrazyNut (May 20, 2014)

Hi guys,
just after you opinions here. Do you think V.indicus and V.indicus "blue phase" should be classed as a different species like V.storri and V.storri ocreatus or do you think they need to be classed as just 2 different colour variations like red V.acanthurus and normal full pattern V.acanthurus? 
Thanks
kind regards
CN


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## insitu (May 20, 2014)

possibly, seems naturally their separated by an ocean. I actually think the indicus complex is broken up already but i dont know which area the blues here actually come from. whats a full pattern acanthurus? do you mean brachyurus or baritji? insulanicus?


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## Bluetongue1 (May 21, 2014)

I know nothing about V. indicus taxonomy. What I do know is that colour alone is not sufficient to warrant even sub-species division. There are only a few genes involved and they have multiple alleles which result in different colours. For example, the Common Tree Snake has several colour phases - grass green, blackish blue, sky blue, black, golden. There are a few other variations on those. Yet they are considered th one species and not different sub-species.

Where a colour or pattern difference is accompanied by genetically seperate traits to the rest of the population, then subspecies status may well be warranted. Sorry I cannot help you beyond these general comments.

Blue


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

yes colour and pattern arent enough to split species apart, it is however generally a key way to distinguish which ones you are talking about so instead of saying all the finer points that do separate them from something else we all generally just say "the blue ones".. typically in Australia indicus is green/yellow and black, the blue animals are from Indo, the problem is indicus has for 100's of years been introduced to various areas and islands for the meat and skin trade and this makes it hard to pin variants to specific localities although the blues being isolated from our populations and also having a fairly rounded cross section of tail possibly leads to having Varanus juxtindicus blood crossed into them at some point and im not sure where the blue colour comes from after that, its a complex similar to scalaris and prasinus where pockets of distinct forms exist and mountains of work could be done on them, but yes aussie indicus and blue indicus are possibly already split


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## NicG (May 21, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I know nothing about V. indicus taxonomy. What I do know is that colour alone is not sufficient to warrant even sub-species division. There are only a few genes involved and they have multiple alleles which result in different colours. For example, the Common Tree Snake has several colour phases - grass green, blackish blue, sky blue, black, golden. There are a few other variations on those. Yet they are considered th one species and not different sub-species.
> 
> Where a colour or pattern difference is accompanied by genetically seperate traits to the rest of the population, then subspecies status may well be warranted. Sorry I cannot help you beyond these general comments.
> 
> Blue



Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I'm reasonably sure that Common Tree Snakes will eventually be split up into (at least) two categories:
1) Northern/Golden
2) Eastern - greens, blues, blacks

In addition to being a significantly different colour phase, the Goldens have a different (narrower) head shapes and, as far as my research has taken me, will not breed with the any of the Easterns.


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## andynic07 (May 21, 2014)

NicG said:


> Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I'm reasonably sure that Common Tree Snakes will eventually be split up into (at least) two categories:
> 1) Northern/Golden
> 2) Eastern - greens, blues, blacks
> 
> In addition to being a significantly different colour phase, the Goldens have a different (narrower) head shapes and, as far as my research has taken me, will not breed with the any of the Easterns.


Very interesting stuff, it wasn't until recently that I had seen the golden phase.


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## CrazyNut (May 21, 2014)

insitu said:


> possibly, seems naturally their separated by an ocean. I actually think the indicus complex is broken up already but i dont know which area the blues here actually come from. whats a full pattern acanthurus? do you mean brachyurus or baritji? insulanicus?


When I say full patterns acanthurus I mean just a normal patterned rather than the "red acanthurus" which used to be classed as a separate species until DNA work was done and found that the 2 were biologically the same. 
Personally I think they should be classed as the same species, I was just after what other people thought. I believe Varanus storri ocreatus is classed as dif species due to it having longer appendages then Varanus storri (I think, pretty sure I read that somewhere). As far as I'm aware no such differences occur between the blue and the normal indicus.


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## mangrove (May 21, 2014)

varanids are a naturally variable group of lizards. I have the greens/yellows, and have seen a couple blues in person and there's not much difference besides the colour really, no need for a new sp or ssp, of course I could be wrong. the real question is what's going with scalaris... or brevicauda even


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

my apologies, i think im more confused now than i was before


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## geckodan (May 21, 2014)

The blue is simply a recessive colour mutation of the typical wild animal.


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## Mr.Self-destruct (May 21, 2014)

I assume you're talking about the variation in _V. indicus_ up north. If that is the case don't be surprised to see _V. doreanus_ being listed as being native to Australia. There is considerable talk about them already being here and the Qld museum has in its collections a _V. doreanus_ collected by a German fellow some time back up on cape york. Further to this is you go to iron range national park there are signs there of _V. indicus_ which are clearly _V. doreanus_. The difficulty is getting someone with the funding and the time to go up there and catch an extremely elusive semi aquatic lizard in an area where field work is restricted to 6 months of the year and then definitively prove to a very stubborn colleagues that you have in fact proven that another species of monitor lives here.


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

chilli beach


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## CrazyNut (May 21, 2014)

Mr.Self-destruct said:


> I assume you're talking about the variation in _V. indicus_ up north. If that is the case don't be surprised to see _V. doreanus_ being listed as being native to Australia. There is considerable talk about them already being here and the Qld museum has in its collections a _V. doreanus_ collected by a German fellow some time back up on cape york. Further to this is you go to iron range national park there are signs there of _V. indicus_ which are clearly _V. doreanus_. The difficulty is getting someone with the funding and the time to go up there and catch an extremely elusive semi aquatic lizard in an area where field work is restricted to 6 months of the year and then definitively prove to a very stubborn colleagues that you have in fact proven that another species of monitor lives here.


yeh that was what is was talking about but they are certainly not Doreanus.


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## insitu (May 21, 2014)

as far as i remember there is at least 8 and possibly now over 10 species in the V indicus complex, doreanus is in Australian waters, the one Danny supposedly found in chilli beach is the only specimen iv heard of found on the mainland and being possibly more of a highland species avoiding the coast lines id say it doesnt belong near the beach and possibly shouldnt have been there, but i dont know a lot about that story, many people have claimed to have also found prasinus on the mainland in iron range but we are all yet to see it or even a photo of it, the blue form being recessive could be possible by all means but while the majority of species in PNG and surrounds are typically blue in colour and were heavily exploited for the pet trade id lean further towards their origins being the same as the majority of chondros we have in collections today, really though at the end of the day it doesnt matter what colour it is if you really want to work out if its a different species you need to work out its origins and original locality, in aus, in the wild all the animals here are indicus (although i do seem to feel like i remember them being listed under something else now) either way here they are all the same species in the bush


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## DanN (May 22, 2014)

Mr.Self-destruct said:


> I assume you're talking about the variation in _V. indicus_ up north. If that is the case don't be surprised to see _V. doreanus_ being listed as being native to Australia. There is considerable talk about them already being here and the Qld museum has in its collections a _V. doreanus_ collected by a German fellow some time back up on cape york. Further to this is you go to iron range national park there are signs there of _V. indicus_ which are clearly _V. doreanus_. The difficulty is getting someone with the funding and the time to go up there and catch an extremely elusive semi aquatic lizard in an area where field work is restricted to 6 months of the year and then definitively prove to a very stubborn colleagues that you have in fact proven that another species of monitor lives here.



Attached is a "great" photo of V. doreanus from near the tip of CYP. I see them fairly regularly, and they appear to be the same beast that we were calling dorenaus in southern New Guinea (different to indicus, with lots of blue). Very difficult to get close to (as evidenced by the photo...). Others have better pictures from around Lockhart.

Dan


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## Mr.Self-destruct (May 22, 2014)

CrazyNut said:


> yeh that was what is was talking about but they are certainly not Doreanus.



I wouldn't be too certain about that. Considering there was once a massive landbridge between us and PNG and the fact that we share such a wide range of fauna (Even shared rivers) it would be downright silly to write off a lizard within a species complex (IE. not sure what you are) to definitely not being a species found just over on a neighboring and only recently (geologically) distinct landmass.


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## The_Phantom (May 22, 2014)

there's a lot more work needing to be done on these goannas.


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## insitu (May 22, 2014)

it really comes down to their ecological relationships, theres reasons we dont see orientalis and tristis sharing the same ecosystem, same as scalaris and pellewensis, same as prasinus and keithorni, diamonds and carpets, panoptes and rubidus, each has direct access to both habitats but one takes the place of another. we have many undescribed sub species and undescribed monitors at species level so its not impossible at all but i will remain skeptical until i see some form of proof other than storys of them being seen. as far as species complexes sharing both regions, our adders are different to theirs, our bluetongues are and our kinghorni, chondros, subglobosa, scalaris, etc etc i dont see why indicus wouldnt be


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## geckodan (May 22, 2014)

The animals I was referring to as "blue" was the blue mutation of Varanus indicus.

V. doreanus is a separate issue - there are now three verified specimens in the Qld museum (verified by Valter Weijola) from Cape York so there is no question at all as to whether or not they exist in Australia.


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## CrazyNut (May 22, 2014)

Mr.Self-destruct said:


> I wouldn't be too certain about that. Considering there was once a massive landbridge between us and PNG and the fact that we share such a wide range of fauna (Even shared rivers) it would be downright silly to write off a lizard within a species complex (IE. not sure what you are) to definitely not being a species found just over on a neighboring and only recently (geologically) distinct landmass.


 pretty use this is not Doreanus... Though I won't disagree with you, there is a large chance there are specimens that are not indicus 
View attachment 309929


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## Illium (May 22, 2014)

pic no workey


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## mangrove (May 22, 2014)

young cape doreanus, not my photo can't remember whose it is, if asked will remove immediately apologies in advance just in case
View attachment 309933


edit: pic thingy not working too well, just click on the numbers. If that's not working for people let me know and will upload another way


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## insitu (May 22, 2014)

not working for me bud


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## mangrove (May 22, 2014)

here we go should work now, young cape doreanus.


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## insitu (May 22, 2014)

Thats dannys picure from chilli beach i think


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## mangrove (May 22, 2014)

ah yeah think it was, couldn't be certain though was sent to me a while ago... danny if you want me to take it down just let me know and it's gone, no worries


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## insitu (May 22, 2014)

nice looking little critter


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## Rogue5861 (May 22, 2014)

mangrove said:


> here we go should work now, young cape doreanus.



Ill take 10 thanks 
Looks like another amazing Varanus species, i havent seen those ones before.


Rick


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## pinefamily (May 23, 2014)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I know nothing about V. indicus taxonomy. What I do know is that colour alone is not sufficient to warrant even sub-species division. There are only a few genes involved and they have multiple alleles which result in different colours. For example, the Common Tree Snake has several colour phases - grass green, blackish blue, sky blue, black, golden. There are a few other variations on those. Yet they are considered th one species and not different sub-species.
> 
> Where a colour or pattern difference is accompanied by genetically seperate traits to the rest of the population, then subspecies status may well be warranted. Sorry I cannot help you beyond these general comments.
> 
> Blue


Another case in point is the Gammon Ranges python, distinct by colour and geographical location, yet not recognised as a separate subspecies.


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## geckodan (May 23, 2014)

Yes, that's my image. It has been verified by a number of individuals with extensive doreanus experience as being a juvenile of that species. Two other juveniles have been seen as well as at least three adults photographed (but try as I may I could not locate a copy of or the owner of the Lockhart river image  ).


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## mangrove (May 23, 2014)

now just while we're on the subject of v indicus taxonomy, would anyone care to elaborate on the possible presence of v finschi on the mainland or torres strait islands?


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## geckodan (May 24, 2014)

mangrove said:


> now just while we're on the subject of v indicus taxonomy, would anyone care to elaborate on the possible presence of v finschi on the mainland or torres strait islands?



That one has be long declared as an erroneous sample and entry and the sample has long since been lost.


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## mangrove (May 24, 2014)

thanks for clearing that up Danny


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## CrazyNut (May 25, 2014)

Ok this is the photo I tried posting before but it didn't work. I hope it works this time... As far as I know this is def not Dreanus.


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## geckodan (May 25, 2014)

Wild or captive? That's a blue morph indicus.


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## insitu (May 25, 2014)

its not wild either


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## CrazyNut (May 25, 2014)

Apparently it is wild, I would link to the site but its against forum rules but here is another photo and unless this was a stage then it is def wild.


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## insitu (May 25, 2014)

hahahaha

- - - Updated - - -

you dont need to link me to the site i know the animal


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## CrazyNut (May 25, 2014)

Oh ok so not wild lol I'm curious though, are there natural occurring specimens such as this?


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## insitu (May 25, 2014)

as far as i know not in aus, but danny seems to think so, so i could be wrong


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## CrazyNut (May 26, 2014)

Would be great if we did lol better then Doreanus xD


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## geckodan (May 26, 2014)

I also know this animal and the details of the photo session (but was curious as to what rumours surrounded the image this week). It's a blue phase indicus bred from Mark Wiltshires stock. These are a true mutation of V. indicus apparently originally from a wild caught animal from the Adelaide River region of NT. They breed true to type and are recessive to normal colouration.


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## Imported_tuatara (Jan 9, 2018)

damn the ignorant colleagues! lol


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