# vet trip for the deccw



## jack (Jan 20, 2011)

had to take some animals to a vet to keep deccw happy. here are some images of PIT tagging, blood sampling and scale clipping


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## rockstar_jones (Jan 20, 2011)

Interesting stuff. This might be a dumb question but what was the reason for the required actions?

Michael


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## cris (Jan 20, 2011)

rockstar_jones said:


> Interesting stuff. This might be a dumb question but what was the reason for the required actions?
> 
> Michael


 
They are possibly the only species at risk from poaching(please correct me if im wrong), some wildife regulators are keen to look like they do stuff other than over regulating animals that arnt relevant to conservation.


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## jack (Jan 20, 2011)

it is an endangered species that has had poaching identified as a potential threat, and therefore all private animals and those in zoos are being tagged and the DNA taken to prevent future laundering of wild caught specimens.


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## dihsmaj (Jan 20, 2011)

What species, sorry?


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## jack (Jan 20, 2011)

broad headed snake Hoplocephalus bungaroides


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## junglepython2 (Jan 20, 2011)

Who foots the bill for that Jack?


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## jack (Jan 20, 2011)

they foot the vet bill. i paid for the petrol for the 5 hours plus in the car


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2011)

that tag looks hidious 
what age do they put them in at?


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## RoryBreaker (Jan 20, 2011)

Sounds like a good way to kill Broadies . They don't like stress , they don't like travel , they don't like heat . I hope all of your 'treated' animals go back on the tucker and don't end up sulking . 

How much blood were they able to extract? A usable quantity?


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## cris (Jan 20, 2011)

This sort of thing would make you wonder why people would want to bother keeping them on licence.



Farma said:


> that tag looks hidious


 
Just like a skin worm only crunchy.


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## Echiopsis (Jan 20, 2011)

So do DECCW let you catch a new one if one of the snakes drops dead due to manhandling? I can handle them taking a mouth swab but anything much more intrusive than that wouldnt be happening before the coppers dragged me away full of holes.


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## jack (Jan 20, 2011)

farma, my smallest animal was 29 grams and they tagged it.
rory, i agree... and anecdotally am aware that tagging this species has caused fatalities, which is why the vet applied the tag under the skin, not within the body cavity as the DECCW wanted.
quite a bit of blood was removed, enough from each animal to soak the ends of two cotton buds that were sent off to different labs.


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## grizz (Jan 21, 2011)

where did you have that done sparra?


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## Dannyboi (Jan 21, 2011)

jack said:


> farma, my smallest animal was 29 grams and they tagged it.
> rory, i agree... and anecdotally am aware that tagging this species has caused fatalities, which is why the vet applied the tag under the skin, not within the body cavity as the DECCW wanted.
> quite a bit of blood was removed, enough from each animal to soak the ends of two cotton buds that were sent off to different labs.


What if someone from the DECCW sees that? Is there any consequence?


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## jack (Jan 21, 2011)

west grizz, out west...
dannyboi, the powers that be want the snakes tagged and i really dont think they care too much where, the bloke i spoke to on the phone said they body cavity option was to prevent the tag migrating under the skin and being hard to find! ridiculous considering how bloody obvious these things are, check out image three near my fingers to see the tag


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Is the bag just for restraint?


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## jack (Jan 21, 2011)

yes. easier to use with little snakes than a tube, safer for the handler, less stress on the snake than being held by the head.
you can even administer injections through a bag if needs be.


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## Elapidae1 (Jan 21, 2011)

cheers


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## jack (Jan 21, 2011)

pictures tell a better story steve1, you just pop the animal in a bag, zip it up, and then the slightest pressure is needed to avoid being chewed... again you can see the vet waving his perspex tube around!


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## pythons73 (Jan 21, 2011)

Did you have much warning this was going to happen..IMO i think this is great especially with the Broad headeds,they was a nice little population in Sydney years ago,however last year in the same spot,only found one..Looks as thou you have a few Jack..Do you have a breeding pair,have you had any success in breeding them..


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 21, 2011)

This is only the beginning of DECCW's 'get tough on reptile keepers' program... and of course all it will do is make those that want to keep Broadies do it off licence. The more they 'enforce', the more keepers will find ways around these constraints. They might catch a few keepers of wild caught animals in the beginning, but things will settle back into the 'conceal and say nothing' phase after a short time. 

There is a mood amongst a few individuals at DECCW that reptile keepers need to be pulled into line, but he notion of working cooperatively with reptile keepers is unknown in this country - better to treat us all like exploiting criminals and use a slegehammer when a tackhammer would do the job.

They just don't get it. Forcing keepers to risk the lives of their small animals, and to disfigure them with a big microchip, is not a good scenario.

Jamie.


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## wokka (Jan 21, 2011)

Pythoninfinite said:


> They might catch a few keepers of wild caught animals in the beginning, but things will settle back into the 'conceal and say nothing' phase after a short time.
> 
> 
> Jamie.


Sure they might catch a few keepers of wild caught animals. Who will that benefit? Certainly not the wild caught animals. It will generate yet another story of wild caught animals confiscated to then die from inadequate care.


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## pythonmum (Jan 21, 2011)

I would expect there to be a minimum safe size for PIT tags - and 29g would be likely to be below that. I just boxed up some baby Darwins that weight and can't imagine trying to microchip them. Heck, my 36 kg rottie whimpered when getting tagged! I appreciate the need to conserve wild populations, but animal welfare must also be taken into account. Have you been provided with new record books now that all are individually tagged? I imagine that you would have to record the microchip numbers of all animals sold, traded, died, etc., plus keeping track of numbers in your possession. Won't that make the annual record fun?!


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## Waterrat (Jan 21, 2011)

One things that bother me. Why taking blood samples? DNA can be easily extracted from a slough.


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## Gecko :) (Jan 21, 2011)

ohh geez,. poor things!
I hope they are all ok & not too stressed out from such an ordeal.


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## wokka (Jan 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> One things that bother me. Why taking blood samples? DNA can be easily extracted from a slough.


 how would you be garanteed that the slough came from the particular animal being tested?


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## Sock Puppet (Jan 21, 2011)

Is it only the NSW authorities doing this or are other states doing the same cooperatively? (haha yeah, right)

Are there many specimens kept outside of NSW anyway? Are those records any benefit if the Broadies were sold to someone interstate? I guess it would if those animals make it back to NSW at some stage, & I suppose DNA markers would identify any progeny imported back into the state.


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## MontePython (Jan 21, 2011)

I think it is a good idea to keep track of the population if it is actually threatened in the wild. Atleast they are doing something about it, and not just procrastinating. If nothing else, many people here now know about it (480 odd views on this post) through their indirect actions and people here are now more educated (Im sure many of you googled the species when he gave the name, i know i did). I am wondering why reptiles are not subject to the same laws as other animals like dogs and cats and it is manditory to tag. Populations and real time data would then be available for all to use. I have listened to the problems raised here with deaths etc. so there must be a better way to chip them, but without the numbers being done i would think it would be hard to change their minds with only limited info in hand. 

Why would chipping drive people to the black market? I would assume keepers of this species would be breeding to sustain a captive population as it is a stressed wild population. If a black market does arise as a result will it be any diferent to every other species commonly available on the black market? None of those species are chipped but i reckon under the table sales still go on even with fairly common snakes like Diamonds.

cheers


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## Waterrat (Jan 21, 2011)

wokka said:


> how would you be garanteed that the slough came from the particular animal being tested?



I thought the authorities would trust us. :lol: 

I got your point. They also clipped scales - why not use the clippings for DNA extraction?
Another concern, let say a clutch of BHSs turns up and there is some suspicion about their origins. Are they going to bleed new-born juveniles?
This whole exercise seems like a typical government project; lets do this and then see what we're going to do next. There are Broad-heads in Qld.
What's the name of the project? "Broad-heads controlled by Narrow-heards".

Monte, this whole idea of controlling the trade and even have some handle on relatedness is an impossible dream, because the technology is not there yet or is too expensive. PIT tags (mircochips) and far too big to be used on juvenile snakes, they can't be used at all on most geckos. Unless the PIT tag is implanted into the body cavity (which is a surgical procedure), it is easily removed and just as easily implanted subcutaneously into another snake. For argument sake, if a Tagged snakes dies, the owner catches replacement in the wild and inserts the old tag - no one ill know. That's where DNA comes into play but who is going to pay for all that, and most importantly, is it worth it? The authorities are flat out processing permits and, how they going to manage a DNA / PIT tag database and track transactions?


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## jack (Jan 21, 2011)

a close up photo was taken of the head pattern so that a replacement animal could not be used michael, they thought of that!
in regards to the microchip size, the vet told me an australian company has developed a so called "nanochip" but the DECCW wanted this done right away. To give you an idea of the timescale, I had an inspection where they turned up and went through my collection on the 21st of december, and i was handed a letter to comply with this procedure by the 24th!
thankfully i was granted an extension till after the xmas break when i returned from my holiday.
the DECCW has been using these same PIT tags on green and golden bell frogs 25mm sv! 
I would love to know the fatality rate in this endangered frog and also from all the other wild broadies they have tagged, but they wouldnt admit to any deaths now would they...


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## Pythoninfinite (Jan 21, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I thought the authorities would trust us. :lol:
> 
> I got your point. They also clipped scales - why not use the clippings for DNA extraction?
> Another concern, let say a clutch of BHSs turns up and there is some suspicion about their origins. Are they going to bleed new-born juveniles?
> ...



It's called empire building. Convince the community (and the political hand that feeds you) that there is a problem, even if there isn't, and it increases your chances of getting more staff and more money, to fix a problem that didn't exist in the first place, and can't really be fixed anyway until the habitat is protected... But it looks good for a bureaucrat to jump on a 'problem' and be seen to be doing something, even if there is no real possibility of any 'follow through' in future years.

No doubt there are a few BHSs moved around illegally, but the BHS is a small, slow growing and specialised elapid, and probably has very limited appeal in the larger reptile market, so the term 'black market' is probably a bit simplistic. Similarly, the 'black market' in Diamond Pythons would be limited for other reasons - there are so many attractive captive bred animals available at low cost that taking from the wild is rendered almost unnecessary if you're a licensed keeper. Those who are not in the licensing system will not alter their behaviour because the chances of them getting caught is remote.

The more things are put into law, the more people find ways around those laws. The only way any conservation effort will succeed is by cooperation with the interested community. This is not cooperative behaviour, it's threatening behaviour and the chance of it succeeding in its objectives in the long term is nil.

Jamie

I guess this is a bit off topic really Jack, for this thread (which I find very interesting...) but I'm sure members have seen my numerous negative comments about the various state bureaucracies over the years. My opinions are built on decades of experience with these departments (I used to work for one), and I am convinced that there MUST be a better way for them to behave, and to encourage cooperative responses from the keeping community with better outcomes for all, including the animal communities and habitats they wish to protect. Decades of this behaviour continue to produce miserable outcomes for the animals and the habitats, but they just don't get it. The exercise of power is far more important in the long run, and good outcomes don't produce good headlines.

At this point in time, they don't remotely care about the resentment they cause because they believe they have the force of the law behind them. Yours is a good case in point: why even try to insist that you have a procedure like this done within 3 days of an inspection? In regards to the inspection, you are perfectly within your rights, if they turn up unannounced for an 'inspection', to arrange with them a time which suits YOU - they have no automatic right of access to your home.

Outrageous, but so typical of the way reptile keepers, in particular, are treated... but only in Australia...

J


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## Waterrat (Jan 21, 2011)

It's absolutely ridicules to PIT tag frogs. A few years ago a colleague of mine submitted application to the Animal Ethics Committee for his frog research. He proposed to use PIT tags instead of toe clipping but his proposed methodology was rejected with a detailed explanation why PIT tags should not be used for marking frogs. I guess the DECCW doesn't need AEC's approvals.

The original DEXTRON PIT tags used to travel under the skin but for at least the last 20 years, they have been coating the glass surface with a growth hormone. The connective tissues permanently encapsulated the tag within few hours.

It's fine, actually better to implant PIT tags rather than inject them under the skin (for obvious reasons) in larger species of adult snakes but not into the body cavity where it can interfere with internal organs. It's best placed along one rib (on the inside) where it doesn't affect the snakes locomotion but that means a few puffs of GA and skillful pair of hands.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2011)

can anyone give me the weight/size of one of those pit tags?
I'd like to know what % of body weight it equals


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## Waterrat (Jan 21, 2011)

It weight less than 0.5 gram, probably much less, the Pesola scale (0.5g increments) didn't even move.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2011)

cheers Michael!

why cant they use a BIOMETRIX System-1000 photonic marking formulation like it was designed for?
this with a picture of the head pattern is more than enough to identify a snake 
i see no need for a tag that size to be placed in an animal like that


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## Waterrat (Jan 21, 2011)

I would say because it's easier to link PIT Tag number to a DNA database than a photograph.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2011)

BMX was designed to tag fish so i dont see why it cant work for this 
if all you need is a number


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## RoryBreaker (Jan 21, 2011)

I hear there are only 16 individual Broad Headed Snakes being kept on licence in NSW . And they are spread among 5 or 6 keepers . It puts broadies in a very precarious position in relation to their future in private hands . How many zoos have bred them? I know that some private keepers have cracked them but its not a regular occurence . It only takes one hot spell to coincide with a power outage ( aircon is critical for the captive maintenance of this species ) to kill off an adult . In a perfect world it would be nice if these remaining keepers 'share notes' and work together . It would give those at the DECCW a very large headache if they started to produce a large number of progeny every year !


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## W.T.BUY (Jan 21, 2011)

I went to melbourne zoo last year and they said they had no trouble breeding them and infact werent breeding them the comming season as there is no where for the babies to go?


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## Daz_McC (Jan 21, 2011)

W.T.BUY said:


> I went to melbourne zoo last year and they said they had no trouble breeding them and infact werent breeding them the comming season as there is no where for the babies to go?


 
Why is Melbourne zoo breeding them? I would have thought Taronga would be the obvious place to have a captive breeding program.


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## jack (Jan 21, 2011)

i think you may have been misinformed WTBuy. melbourne zoo have bred them a few times, but they are in no way successful. they are having stillbirth issues and are also losing around 50% of juvies in the first year or so, there is a fairly recent herpetofauna article on this. 
i was there two weeks ago and they have one individual on display at the moment, right next to an informative sign that suggests that they are attempting to breed to distribute to other zoological institutions. taronga zoo have a lovely broad head display enclosure in the reptile section, but i have been told by a reliable source it is empty!. 
with a bit of luck taronga can get some, hopefully not donated by the DECCW after a confiscation from private keepers!


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## tsbjd (Mar 16, 2011)

Hi Jack,

Any problems as yet? What is the legal side of refusing to tag / take bloods due to welfare of the snake? Does the DECCW offer a guarantee on the health of the snakes after vet throwaround? I agree with what they are trying to achieve, but it is a risk versus reward situation - why take these sort of risks with an endangered Reptile?

Cheers


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 16, 2011)

> I agree with what they are trying to achieve



What is that exactly?

J


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## tsbjd (Mar 16, 2011)

I was told they were getting it to repopulate if needed, however im starting to have my doubts now.


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## jack (Mar 16, 2011)

tsbj said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> Any problems as yet? What is the legal side of refusing to tag / take bloods due to welfare of the snake? Does the DECCW offer a guarantee on the health of the snakes after vet throwaround? I agree with what they are trying to achieve, but it is a risk versus reward situation - why take these sort of risks with an endangered Reptile?
> 
> Cheers


 
i suspect deccw either monitor, or have information posted on this site forwarded to them as one deccw employee spoke of having seen the photo's on this very thread. 
I will therefore be as objective as possible in my comments, and hope that any other posters do likewise. 
I will also only disclose the first initial of people involved in this.

I have kept all correspondence between myself and the deccw, and have taken notes during all but one phone conversation described.

A letter signed by B2, handed to me in person by B1, asked for my assistance in the recovery project by allowing my animals to be tagged, and scales taken for DNA analysis.

I phoned B2 and was told politely that refusal to comply, would mean "statutory powers" would be used to take the animals and perform the procedure if a keeper refused. He was dismissive toward my concerns. 

The procedure was carried out by a vet. I sighted the instructions given to the vet, signed by B2, that asked for a blood sample to be taken from the animals. No mention had been made in the letter of demand nor phone calls.

two snakes became unwell. one died.

B2 was called, and I was informed that this individual was not in charge of the project, but those that were would be notified.

I organised an autopsy by a highly qualified vet.

M1 called me to ask for the animal for autopsy, i informed them this had been organised already.

M2 called having been informed by their superior M1 of the situation. An offer was made to pay for the autopsy, as the deccw were "eager" to know what had killed the animal ("the aim is to protect not kill protected species"). M2 was the head of the broad head recovery project at deccw. M2 sent two emails to me seeking information and again offering to pay for the autopsy.

although it took some time, the animal was determined to have died from a bacterial infection, the species of bacteria was one that would be expected to be found on the scales. it cannot be conclusively determined but the vet has stated it is likely the bacteria entered the animal during the procedure.

i called M2, who informed me they were now working on another project, and two other individuals would now be running the broad head recovery project. An email later informed me that i should direct further correspondence to M1.

as you can imagine, i am a little peeved that the deccw seem to be responsible for the death of my pet.

in regards to what they are trying to achieve, M2 has informed me that the dna will be used to determine "parentage" of captive animals. 

there is contradiction in exact number, but two of the above deccw employees have informed me there are less than 15 animals in captivity, and there are 4 or less keepers, they agree that three animals remain to be tagged and sampled.

i could go on a bit more, but this is the gist of it all... sorry for the cloak and dagger stuff, but some of these people seem like decent sorts and don't need vilification.


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## Sock Puppet (Mar 16, 2011)

Jack, do you know if any of the other keeper's animals already tagged have deteriorated or died?

I wonder what the conclusion would have been if DECCW had performed the necropsy themselves (via their vet). Did the vet clean the surface area where the tag was inserted prior to the procedure being performed?


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## jack (Mar 16, 2011)

unwilling to comment on other keepers animals.

the animal was not swabbed with alcohol at the site of scute clipping, which is the suspected site of pathogen entry, nor at the site of the two penetrations for blood sampling. 
the animals were not given follow up antibiotics as a precaution against infection. 
i have suggested to the authorities that these precautions should be taken in the future.


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## Waterrat (Mar 16, 2011)

Jack, that makes my hair stand up.
There are currently 2 court cases in preparation against wildlife authorities (not in NSW) and please don't ask for details. You should start counting your losses, both material and emotional and seeking a barrister. None of the silly magistrate court nonsense, supreme court is the place to deal with THEM.


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## jack (Mar 16, 2011)

even the most skilled barrister could not return my pretty little girl


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## cris (Mar 16, 2011)

jack said:


> even the most skilled barrister could not return my pretty little girl


 
That just means you should sue them for over $100 million, espcially considering they killed an endangered species for no reason. It would be pretty hard to find enough money to get things going though. Still it would be nice if more people stood up to stupid beurocracy when it has a negative impact on their lives. Although we have a really stupid system, in some cases it worth considering using it as its often the only way progress is made. it would certainly achieve more than just chopping up the people responsible :lol:


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## Sock Puppet (Mar 16, 2011)

jack said:


> unwilling to comment on other keepers animals.
> 
> the animal was not swabbed with alcohol at the site of scute clipping, which is the suspected site of pathogen entry, nor at the site of the two penetrations for blood sampling.
> the animals were not given follow up antibiotics as a precaution against infection.
> i have suggested to the authorities that these precautions should be taken in the future.


Fair enough, I can understand your diplomacy with this. 
That's poor form from a vet to overlook simple precautions like that.


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## euphorion (Mar 16, 2011)

I can't believe the vet didn't clean the sites before performing the blood-taking, chipping and scale clipping! That's just malpractice in my opinion!

I'm so so sorry to hear of your loss, that's absolutely horrible. I sincerely hope you are able to persue this, it's just not on!


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## tsbjd (Mar 16, 2011)

In reply to something written above - and although i know this is going to plague me in the future - there are at least two other animals that I personally know of that are stressing, and are still off their food (I will not name names, if they want to post here they will). They are not mine. From the reports, talking to other keepers and photos i think that is in the best intrests of my reptiles not to attend the vets.


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## cris (Mar 16, 2011)

Just to make it clear im not suggesting you sue the vet, but rather the idiots who made you go through this completely useless risk. It would be very easy just to take photos and require instant photo records of any breeding rather than go through heaps of stuff which would all have contributed to the snakes death.


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## jack (Mar 16, 2011)

tsbj said:


> i think that is in the best intrests of my reptiles not to attend the vets.


 
i think you just publicly outed yourself as the last legal keeper to hold unmolested broadies in this state!


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