# What is going on with prices?



## dst1980 (Oct 12, 2010)

Whats going on with python prices? BHP's $300, Coastals $50, Stripped Coastals $80! Not even 12 months ago these prices were unheard of. Are we really getting to the stage of over breeding, as much as this industry is growing the supply and demand must be getting out of hand. This is great for the buyers, but a nightmare for those who spent there hard earned cash on expensive breeders only to have the prices drop and now worth less than the average power bill. I love the fact thre's so much on the market, but only hope it dosn't get to the stage of dogs and cats where shelters would be needed to look after the unsaleable and unwanted of spring. Do we all need to take a few steps back?


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## -Matt- (Oct 12, 2010)

Comes down to two simple words ..... Supply & Demand.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2010)

dst1980 said:


> Do we all need to take a few steps back?


 
yes we do!

problem is it seems nobody these days wants to fork out any money for anything and everyone wants to breed everything they have too sell!


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## derekm (Oct 12, 2010)

Nothing new! I have friends who breed Australian parrots. This started happening to them more than 25 years ago. It appears to have stabilised to the point where, unless you're breeding highly desirable species, mutations or talking pets, you're doing it mostly for love and beer money.


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## zulu (Oct 12, 2010)

Lots coming from the wild legally and illegally and allot getting bred of various species.
Its a dead giveaway when you see WA WA WA WA WA Mayday Mayday Mayday
.......................................................................................................................


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## Tinky (Oct 12, 2010)

At the last Newcastle Expo we must of had over a thousand beardie hachies for sale at the different stalls.

Herps are the in thing.

i think that some breeders are going to be verry disapointed with prices, as the market is flooded.


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## Kurto (Oct 12, 2010)

I dont know about anyone else, but I just want to keep and breed some awesome reptiles! Why is money such a factor? I'm sooo bored of people whinging about this topic.... do your home work before you decide to invest in anything people!


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## Waterrat (Oct 12, 2010)

I may have said this before - some of us are good breeders but boy, very few have any business sense. Ohhh, sorry, I forgot, this a hobby isn't it?


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## jetlee1981 (Oct 12, 2010)

It's got me concerned because when i bought my diamond in 2003 she was $300. Adult diamonds were going for around $700. 

I'm trying to sell my adult diamond with a full set up enclosure and i can't get a bite on the $1000 price tag. 

what's normal price for a 7 year old Diamond these days?


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## Scleropages (Oct 12, 2010)

Investing in livestock = LOL
Prices off the net are still NORMAL... well they are around here.

Oh and I will take any unwanted BHps/ GTPs or Albinos


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## Steven9 (Oct 12, 2010)

$1000?
mann that rack better be stacked


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## Laghairt (Oct 12, 2010)

If you want to make money you'd better have something very unusual/desirable to breed, and be the first to have it.


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## cris (Oct 12, 2010)

I think its great, if you want to make money breed what is in demand rather than just farming common stuff that doesnt have sustainable demand. You shouldnt buy reptiles and expect they will keep high profit margins, although some reptiles will hold there value well most that are easy to breed wont remain profitable forever.

Half of the problem is that many expect to make money and use this as justifaction for paying the large prices. Im not saying that there is anything wrong with critters being expensive due to high demand but its works both ways and chucking a tantrum wont help (not refering to anyone in particular). IMO you will be able to get lots of adult pythons free once they dont earn their keep so to speak.

IMO it wouldnt be hard to make money at $50 for most species, provided you dont include your time as a cost.


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## byron_moses (Oct 12, 2010)

Kurto said:


> I dont know about anyone else, but I just want to keep and breed some awesome reptiles! Why is money such a factor? I'm sooo bored of people whinging about this topic.... do your home work before you decide to invest in anything people!


 well said mate its the challenge of discovering new traits and seeing what patterns uyou can produce.


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## dst1980 (Oct 12, 2010)

The loss of profit is not what Im concerned about it's the flood of reptiles and no where for them to go. Im all for cheap prices but when the time comes when ya can't give them away, what then? Stop breeding, won't happen.


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## cris (Oct 12, 2010)

dst1980 said:


> The loss of profit is not what Im concerned about it's the flood of reptiles and no where for them to go. Im all for cheap prices but when the time comes when ya can't give them away, what then? Stop breeding, won't happen.


 
Dont incubate the eggs or lobby to allow them to be used as food (not that there would be any evidence unless you take pics).


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## Kurto (Oct 12, 2010)

dst1980 said:


> The loss of profit is not what Im concerned about it's the flood of reptiles and no where for them to go. Im all for cheap prices but when the time comes when ya can't give them away, what then? Stop breeding, won't happen.


 
loss of profit... can't give them away? Sounds like an issue with money...


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## MrShorty8878 (Oct 12, 2010)

byron_moses said:


> well said mate its the challenge of discovering new traits and seeing what patterns uyou can produce.


 exactly i dont breed but if i did it might be a bonus to get money but just to see the eggs the snakes their patters it would be a great experience


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## Kyro (Oct 12, 2010)

I personally think we need a system in place like registered cat & dog breeders where you have to have a license to breed & this license needs to be expensive enough that the average keeper won't bother. Too many people are able to breed which floods the market, the only way to prevent the inevitable reptiles in pounds scenario is to regulate who can & can't breed.


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## BennyA (Oct 12, 2010)

That's life I think just open a newspaper and look at the price wars goin on with supermarkets mainly, liquor shops and even tv's and all appliances it's out of control everywhere in all aspects brother


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## Miffy (Oct 12, 2010)

jetlee1981 said:


> It's got me concerned because when i bought my diamond in 2003 she was $300. Adult diamonds were going for around $700.
> 
> I'm trying to sell my adult diamond with a full set up enclosure and i can't get a bite on the $1000 price tag.
> what's normal price for a 7 year old Diamond these days?



I saw a diamond not sure how old but fully grown at Upmarket Pets for $2000 yesterday and another at another reptile shop for $1500. I think I paid $375 for mine 4 years ago. 

I almost see snakes like the stock exchange lol Supply and Demand, what's Hot and what's Not. They kinda go through phases. One minute everyones ohhing and ahhing about high yellow diamonds then hypo bredlis, next its black and gold jungles, then black and white jungles, then GTP and Albinos lol

I wouldnt knock any of the above back but I wish I had of graphed their price movements over the past 5 years.


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## BennyA (Oct 12, 2010)

A breeders license sounds sensible to me,


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## krefft (Oct 12, 2010)

I think they should be available in pet shops here in NSW. Reptiles are no more specialised than plenty of other animals available in them. Yes, yes their will be a period where there will be examples of people perhaps not looking after them properly, but every one of us also went through that period.
They are fantastic pets and I look forward to the day when they stop being on the fringe and become a mainstream pet.


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## cement (Oct 12, 2010)

I feel sorry for those that mortgaged houses etc and got into the breeding in a big way. It would be gut wrenching to watch the dollar side just fall out of it. As it has.
Its not an easy game to play, and because we are talking about raising animals to breed its a very long time process. 
My honest opinion is that if you want to make money from reptiles then sell the products, not the animals, or better still become a reptile specialist vet. In the same time it takes to grow, breed and grow and back cross you will be making heaps more dosh ( bit extra work with uni etc).
I was considering fish farming once and got involved for a little while, but the only person making money was the fish vet.


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## byron_moses (Oct 12, 2010)

Kyro said:


> I personally think we need a system in place like registered cat & dog breeders where you have to have a license to breed & this license needs to be expensive enough that the average keeper won't bother. Too many people are able to breed which floods the market, the only way to prevent the inevitable reptiles in pounds scenario is to regulate who can & can't breed.


 but then you just allow for a underground market to begin as i dont think u can de-sex a snake there for how do u stop it?


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## chase77 (Oct 12, 2010)

krefft said:


> I think they should be available in pet shops here in NSW. Reptiles are no more specialised than plenty of other animals available in them. Yes, yes their will be a period where there will be examples of people perhaps not looking after them properly, but every one of us also went through that period.
> They are fantastic pets and I look forward to the day when they stop being on the fringe and become a mainstream pet.



_I'm of the other opinion, that cats and dogs should not be sold at pet shops. Impulse buying at its worst. And think how many dogs and cats are put down each year. _

_But a breeders licence maybe good, but then i suppose breeders can hold the buyer to ransom when there isn't enough demand._


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 12, 2010)

Licensing breeders won't have any impact - WA has a 'farmer's licence' in their system, which at $1500 (you legally have to have one if you breed more than one clutch of any species, regardless of the return you may get - i.e., 2 prs of Shinglebacks produce 4 babies....) It's a totally laughable prospect that people will fork out that sort of dough unless they can recoup it very quickly, the take-up rate after about 5 years was 2 I think. It is a bizarre concept developed by a very bizarre bureaucracy...

It has meant that SW Carpets are now pushing out record clutches though - 40-50 eggs isn't unheard of!

Jamie.


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## Midcoaster (Oct 12, 2010)

I think reptile breeding wasnt so main stream as it is now a lot of people were scared to keep snakes because people looked down on them but now its all good! thats how i felt anway! plus now in nsw bhp and womas are on class 1 which helps flood the trade!


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## cris (Oct 12, 2010)

cement said:


> I feel sorry for those that mortgaged houses etc and got into the breeding in a big way. It would be gut wrenching to watch the dollar side just fall out of it. As it has.


 
More stupid than going into a pyramid marketing scam IMO. About equal to taking out a loan to play pokies. If you want to invest in something put some effort in to learning about the relevant market/business. That said im no marketing expert i thought the price would have crashed much sooner, without the GFC.


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## derekm (Oct 13, 2010)

Kyro said:


> I personally think we need a system in place like registered cat & dog breeders where you have to have a license to breed & this license needs to be expensive enough that the average keeper won't bother. Too many people are able to breed which floods the market, the only way to prevent the inevitable reptiles in pounds scenario is to regulate who can & can't breed.


 
The pedigree dog and cat breeding marketplace is mainly controlled by licensed breeders voluntarily choosing to neuter all animals sold, except where they are sold to other licensed breeders. I suspect that the bird breeding community continues, after over 25 years, to face the same supply and demand issues that are now arising in the reptile breeding community because neutering of "pet" stock is much easier to arrange for mammals than it is for birds or reptiles.


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## zuesowns (Oct 13, 2010)

I seem to see a lot of advertisements as "Paris" only and almost everyone is buying in pairs, obviously to breed - if everyone buys pairs to breed (supply exceeds demand)

Some pure breed dogs (their breeders make the buyers sign a contract to not breed from)

I have a question, why sell in pairs?


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## Jay84 (Oct 13, 2010)

dst1980 said:


> The loss of profit is not what Im concerned about it's the flood of reptiles and no where for them to go. Im all for cheap prices but when the time comes when ya can't give them away, what then? Stop breeding, won't happen.


 
Why not let them go? Im sure they would love to be out in the wild lol

On a more serious note. Why limit breeding of reptiles to registered breeders? Why should the priviledge of breeding only be for those that pay a premium price? What is little Jonny down the road wants to breed his pair of Blueys and watch them reproduce and grow? You want to strip him of the pleasure and delight in this?

What people need to learn is restraint. Instead of breeding every single animal they have each and every season, only breed a couple. People will soon learn and change their breeding plans accordingly.


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## Wookie (Oct 13, 2010)

Kyro said:


> I personally think we need a system in place like registered cat & dog breeders where you have to have a license to breed & this license needs to be expensive enough that the average keeper won't bother. Too many people are able to breed which floods the market, the only way to prevent the inevitable reptiles in pounds scenario is to regulate who can & can't breed.


 
I am with you on this one. I can't see another way to stem the flow. It's all well and good to say people need to use common sense, but that will never work. There must be an authority on this, maybe a licence that varies in cost, influenced by how many pairs you plan to breed?


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> On a more serious note. Why limit breeding of reptiles to registered breeders? Why should the priviledge of breeding only be for those that pay a premium price? What is little Jonny down the road wants to breed his pair of Blueys and watch them reproduce and grow? You want to strip him of the pleasure and delight in this?
> 
> What people need to learn is restraint. Instead of breeding every single animal they have each and every season, only breed a couple. People will soon learn and change their breeding plans accordingly.


 
I agree, i would hate to see breeding restricted to some sort of eletist group.


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## carpetpythongurl (Oct 13, 2010)

well ultimate reptile supply has just said they have a couple of hundred gtp so we'll being buy for under 500 in no time


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2010)

carpetpythongurl said:


> well ultimate reptile supply has just said they have a couple of hundred gtp so we'll being buy for under 500 in no time



In that thread you said few minutes ago they'll be under $1000.-, now it's $500.- is it? Tim didn't say anything about price. *This is how crap happens*.


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## ANT22 (Oct 13, 2010)

a license is a good idea, but why should u have too pay? Wouldnt it make much more sense to have some sort of test in place, with possible background checks..that way it is still possible for little johny down the road to be able to breed over some one that can easily fork out a premium price...Just a 15yr old thought...


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## carpetpythongurl (Oct 13, 2010)

supply and demand and $500 is under $1000 isnt it?????


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## Camo (Oct 13, 2010)

They would be my $50 CCP and $80 Striped CCP.

Its simple i need room for this seasons hathcies (females due to lay very soon) and they were not moving at the price they should be going for.

Cameron


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## Camo (Oct 13, 2010)

cris said:


> IMO it wouldnt be hard to make money at $50 for most species, provided you dont include your time as a cost.


Exactly to the point cris.

My CCP that i sold for $50ea have had about $25 worth of foods put into them and then you have your time and the time and effort gone into selling them.

Did i make money from them? No, but at the end of the day i like breeding pythons and if i can let great animals go at a good price than thats the way the cookie crumbles.


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2010)

URS said they have 200 eggs, no mention of price. You replied they'll be under $1000.- this year. Three minutes later, in this thread you claim they be under 500 in no time.
I am sure everybody here appreciates your point of view. 

Don't give yourself heart attack, I am not worth it.


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## Jungletrans (Oct 13, 2010)

l just have to laugh when everyone is blaming the backyard breeder with their one cluch for the over supply . Wouldnt have anything to do with the hundreds of full time breeders with their hundreds of tubs full of breeding snakes now would it ? A few people might have to get a job like the rest of us . And by the way l didnt breed anything this year , l'm waiting for some very interesting pythons to mature .


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## Jay84 (Oct 13, 2010)

Jungletrans said:


> l just have to laugh when everyone is blaming the backyard breeder with their one cluch for the over supply . Wouldnt have anything to do with the hundreds of full time breeders with their hundreds of tubs full of breeding snakes now would it ? A few people might have to get a job like the rest of us . And by the way l didnt breed anything this year , l'm waiting for some very interesting pythons to mature .


+1


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## Wookie (Oct 13, 2010)

Its basically what you want the market to be. A buyers market or sellers market. For a hobbyist, mass breeding is ideal, as it gives access to cheaper pets. I guess taking the commercialism out of herps would be good in that respect, though in the long term would low profit margins make breeders more likely to give up, as it becomes less economically viable?


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## carpetpythongurl (Oct 13, 2010)

Jungletrans said:


> l just have to laugh when everyone is blaming the backyard breeder with their one cluch for the over supply . Wouldnt have anything to do with the hundreds of full time breeders with their hundreds of tubs full of breeding snakes now would it ? A few people might have to get a job like the rest of us . And by the way l didnt breed anything this year , l'm waiting for some very interesting pythons to mature .


 +2


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## SamNabz (Oct 13, 2010)

No matter how many breeders there are out there, if you breed quality animals there is always someone willing to pay the *deserving* price tag.


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## SamNabz (Oct 13, 2010)

Well carpetpythongurl where did you get this information? You say they will sell them under $1000 cause they have a couple hundred eggs?
Why would they sell them cheaper cause they have so many? They have a big breeding facility and obviously deal with a huge amount of eggs, I highly doubt they would sell them cheaper because there's so many.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't let variable prices each year get my knickers in a knot.
Ill just go with the flow .
Especially since I have no control on what prices are set by other people who want to breed there reptiles .
Everyone is entitled to breed there pets as they see fit as far as im concerned .


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## Waterrat (Oct 13, 2010)

Personal insults aside - how do you think your prediction / calculation / imagination helped anybody? Wouldn't it be wise to wait for URS to announce their price and then comment rather than making comments that don't have any foundation? 

By the way, I am not a full-time breeder, nor I produce any quantities of reptiles to speak off. The yearlings I have now for sale are the product of 2009 breeding. Wow, 22 of them, that's going to flood the market!


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## Wally (Oct 13, 2010)

Jungle_Freak said:


> Everyone is entitled to breed there pets as they see fit as far as im concerned .


 
And everyone is entitled to set the price of said reptiles as far as I'm concerned.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 13, 2010)

wally76 said:


> and everyone is entitled to set the price of said reptiles as far as i'm concerned.



exactly right wally


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## carpetpythongurl (Oct 13, 2010)

SamNabz said:


> Well carpetpythongurl where did you get this information? You say they will sell them under $1000 cause they have a couple hundred eggs?
> Why would they sell them cheaper cause they have so many? They have a big breeding facility and obviously deal with a huge amount of eggs, I highly doubt they would sell them cheaper because there's so many.


 i didnt say THEY would sell them any cheaper i said the price will drop, because alot of big breeders are producing large numbers an example was urs


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## tonesanlainie (Oct 13, 2010)

When demand is overtaken by supply prices go down, we all know that. But at the same time it really mean competition is spawned and the price is re-adjusted accordingly. If no one dropped their prices, regardless, then prices would remain unchanged!!! In reality lower pricing means greater accessibility and the opportuinty to grow the hobby. I remember an old saying that something is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

Cheers


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## bigi (Oct 13, 2010)

Obviously supply is larger than demand, clearly illustrated in this thread by people moving animals on to make room for more.
For me it is a hobby,i like owning my critters, careing for them, they are awesome, and i will never even break even, thats not what im interested in, however i do understand it is a business for many, and a business must earn money to survive.
I am interested in people breeding reptiles for restocking wild populations, i think some effort should be made by people in the industry or hobbie to put into the wild population as fish restocking has done for many years, god knows we are loosing more reptiles than ever with poisens and cane toads


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## stockhorse (Oct 13, 2010)

*what's going on with prices*

Have I missed something when I blinked? Licences for cat & dog breeders :all animals they sell are neutered:
That is so far from reality,you can not show a neutered dog or cat,and you do not need a licence to breed pedigree dogs or otherwise.You do require the animals to be registered with the controlling body (sir and dame). But only if you want to register the puppies with that controlling body.

Requiring snake owners to register to breed will simply mean that sales "off the books" to unlicenced owners will increase.

Prices will always fluctuate and there will always be a variety of reasons for increase or decrease in prices.The number of people making a living from breeding also fluctuates and downsizing or deleting certain breeds from the collection become part of moving with the flow and ebb of supply and demand.
A good look at aussie farmers "survival' techniques is not a bad pattern to follow.


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## byron_moses (Oct 13, 2010)

stockhorse said:


> Have I missed something when I blinked? Licences for cat & dog breeders :all animals they sell are neutered:
> That is so far from reality,you can not show a neutered dog or cat,and you do not need a licence to breed pedigree dogs or otherwise.You do require the animals to be registered with the controlling body (sir and dame). But only if you want to register the puppies with that controlling body.
> 
> Requiring snake owners to register to breed will simply mean that sales "off the books" to unlicenced owners will increase.
> ...


 what do u mean by u cant show a desexed cat or dog?


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## chase77 (Oct 13, 2010)

byron_moses said:


> what do u mean by u cant show a desexed cat or dog?


exactly as byron wrote. You cant show desexed cats and dogs at shows ie royal easter show


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## byron_moses (Oct 13, 2010)

chase77 said:


> exactly as byron wrote. You cant show desexed cats and dogs at shows ie royal easter show


 sorry guys thats not true mate u can


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## stockhorse (Oct 13, 2010)

Part of the rules for showing pure breed dogs is that puppies must be entire(both testes decended) It is to deter the breeding of certain bloodlines that breeds infertile or possibly infertile offspring.There is a vet check at every show that examines the dogs for decended testes and if only one is present you are not allowed to show thw dog.That means desexed dogs do not qualify for showing.Thus why I pay high council fees for my non desexed showdogs.


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Personal insults aside - how do you think your prediction / calculation / imagination helped anybody? Wouldn't it be wise to wait for URS to announce their price and then comment rather than making comments that don't have any foundation?
> 
> By the way, I am not a full-time breeder, nor I produce any quantities of reptiles to speak off. The yearlings I have now for sale are the product of 2009 breeding. Wow, 22 of them, that's going to flood the market!


 
I think you take these topics far to personally, you actually have something that will be in high demand for many years to come(although its unrealistic for the price to maintain as many will bred what you sell to them), compared to many others you seem to be selling snakes very quickly and at what i would consider a reasonable or even cheap price(although still out of most peoples budgets if they dont consider it a breeding investment). Chill out mate.


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## byron_moses (Oct 13, 2010)

stockhorse said:


> Part of the rules for showing pure breed dogs is that puppies must be entire(both testes decended) It is to deter the breeding of certain bloodlines that breeds infertile or possibly infertile offspring.There is a vet check at every show that examines the dogs for decended testes and if only one is present you are not allowed to show thw dog.That means desexed dogs do not qualify for showing.Thus why I pay high council fees for my non desexed showdogs.


 you also said cats mate


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## SamNabz (Oct 13, 2010)

carpetpythongurl said:


> deleted



What are you talking about here? Make some sense please.


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

stockhorse said:


> Part of the rules for showing pure breed dogs is that puppies must be entire(both testes decended) It is to deter the breeding of certain bloodlines that breeds infertile or possibly infertile offspring.There is a vet check at every show that examines the dogs for decended testes and if only one is present you are not allowed to show thw dog.That means desexed dogs do not qualify for showing.Thus why I pay high council fees for my non desexed showdogs.


 
Dog breeding standards are awesome, look at the high standard of health in most pure bred animals, some cant even breed naturally  desirable show traits or stuff worth money wins out over breeding strong healthy animals in most cases. While there are plenty of good dog breeders, especially those that breed for health or some sort of funtional purpose (like virtually all dogs used to be bred for) unfortunately many are just money grabbing pompus yuppy scum only interested in distorting the dogs morphology to make them look trendy or be profitable.


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## carpetpythongurl (Oct 13, 2010)

cris said:


> Dog breeding standards are awesome, look at the high standard of health in most pure bred animals, some cant even breed naturally  desirable show traits or stuff worth money wins out over breeding strong healthy animals in most cases. While there are plenty of good dog breeders, especially those that breed for health or some sort of funtional purpose (like virtually all dogs used to be bred for) unfortunately many are just money grabbing pompus yuppy scum only interested in distorting the dogs morphology to make them look trendy or be profitable.



unfortunately the reptile word seems to be going the same way


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## Tegstep (Oct 13, 2010)

Hee hee, watch me get blown up for this one:
Too many people who don't know what they are doing for some reason seem to feel the need to breed. Leads to lots of poorly cared for pets and poorly brought up children. 
Licenses for all!!!


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## carpetpythongurl (Oct 13, 2010)

i have hearded of a guy that is sells his snakes and lizards on a contract that you wont breed them and if you do the animal and offspring return to him but if you want to breed then the price of the animal is doubled once sold on a 'pet' contact it is always that and can not be breed if the owner sells the animal they must get the new owner to sign the contract or they are still respopable for the animal not being breed and any cost occured in return of animal and offspring if it is. he also only offers the health, strong, no defect animals up for breeding


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## Jimi (Oct 13, 2010)

Every person has the right to breed.

Just because there are cheap reptiles available does not mean people should stop breeding.

ps. Anyone else think carpetpythongurl is an ex member back with a vendetta?


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

carpetpythongurl said:


> unfortunately the reptile word seems to be going the same way


 
In some ways, but since they cant be desexed there will always be plenty of people able to breed normal healthy animals even if they dont make money from it. Also wild caught animals are available legally in some cases and its naive to think they dont come into the system illegally to some extent.

Sadly i think many get into keeping reptiles or probably more so having larger collections due to the profits you could make, rather than actually wanting heaps of racks full of snakes they only see when they feed or clean the enclosures.


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

Jimi said:


> Every person has the right to breed.
> 
> Just because there are cheap reptiles available does not mean people should stop breeding.


 
I agree, but if you dont plan on keeping them all you should think about how you are going to get them to new homes. I think the furture of herpetoculture will be in making reptile products like albino python purses, feeder reptiles, more reptile meats other than just crocodile and other stuff.


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## Gusbus (Oct 13, 2010)

wait another couple years when the rpm's get about more they will be worth next nothing and the half that dont have the gene may as give them away, the money its going to cost breeders to get them to feed there will be alot of frozen snakes to..


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## Ozzie Python (Oct 13, 2010)

anyone else got deja vu?

prices going to crash etc etc- for and against arguements, grenns will be cheap, michael will defend them to the death, some will get upset at him, others will respect the fact he may know whats he's on about, someone will bring up jags and their eventual plummet on price of course, others will agree to continue the demand vs supply debate and then everyone else will go off topic - myself included in the hope the thread gets closed 

did i miss anything?


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

D3pro said:


> lol this thread will be shut down soon, it's like a 10 year old trying to explain the wall market crash.


 
No, excluding exact prices and rates of prices dropping etc. Its very simple and a reasonably smart 10 year old could understand or explain it. Most pythons will live for 20+ years, being able to breed most of that time. Considering the very low captive mortality rate, while its profitable to breed them the population of captive snakes will expand exponentially, the demand from new keepers cant keep up with production while its as profitable as it has been. Much of the general public is now aware that you can keep snakes if you want to, there isnt going to be any sustainable boom in the market, best hope would be a short term boom as various states allow or increase petshop sales.

Like i have said in other threads if you could rely on breeding things like average anteresia and carpets it would be the easiest and most profitable legal farming business in the world. Its just not practical to mass produce snakes at high cost when few want them as most that do want them will already have them. Also many have realised how prices were once quite profitable and have bought snakes for this reason, once they lose this appeal there will be lots of snakes that arnt wanted.


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## Fuscus (Oct 13, 2010)

In a way price drops are good - they prove that we can keep and breed reptiles and maintain a healthy captive population. If a government agency or a zoo was able to achieve this amount of success they would be crowing about it. Ideally we could be used to establish captive populations of endangered species not currently kept ( but don't hold your breath ). 
But in another way the price drops are bad, the animals become more disposable, discards and releases become more common and some species may become rare in captivity because no one bothers to breed them.


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## cris (Oct 13, 2010)

Fuscus said:


> But in another way the price drops are bad, the animals become more disposable, discards and releases become more common and some species may become rare in captivity because no one bothers to breed them.


 
Many reptiles like bearded dragons, bluies and common turtles have been cheap for ages. Im not aware of this causing any problems, but would be interested to hear if it has caused problems.


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## PhilK (Oct 13, 2010)

Jungletrans said:


> l just have to laugh when everyone is blaming the backyard breeder with their one cluch for the over supply . Wouldnt have anything to do with the hundreds of full time breeders with their hundreds of tubs full of breeding snakes now would it ?


 This is the best thing said so far!

Also the only thing that this thread has proved is that we should be issuing breeding licences to people.


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## cris (Oct 14, 2010)

PhilK said:


> This is the best thing said so far!
> 
> Also the only thing that this thread has proved is that we should be issuing breeding licences to people.


 
Seems like a contradiction, breeding licences already exist in WA and dont work (going off everything i have heard anyway), they promote poaching and also make it virtually impossible for the average keeper to breed a small number of reptiles for the experience and enjoyment, rather than a making money venture to cover the breeding licence.


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2010)

Ozzie Python said:


> anyone else got deja vu?
> 
> prices going to crash etc etc- for and against arguements, grenns will be cheap, michael will defend them to the death, some will get upset at him, others will respect the fact he may know whats he's on about,



You are right mate, I am a fighter and I will fight to no end the witless buggers who have no penny to their names but are eager to influence and bring down the rest of the herp community to their level. Have I seen this syndrome in other walks of life?
I am not defending greens, I am not defending their prices, I am defending logic and empathy. I pity those who can't see it.


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 14, 2010)

Off the subject somewhat, but just to clear up the W.A farmers licence misconception. Any W.A reptile keeper can indeed breed as many reptiles as one likes without having to obtain a farmers licence. A farmers licence is required however if a keeper wishes to sell more than one clutch to a dealer. This doesn't stop keepers breeding multiple clutches and legally using a licensed dealer ( by donation as unwanted stock to the dealer) to transfer those to other keepers. What financial arrangements both keepers conjure up between themselves would generally be unknown to the D.E.C and to the dealer. In my case, as I hold both a keepers and a dealer’s licence, I donate my own unwanted stock (any number of clutches) to myself and as a dealer can then legally on sell it as I please. This is just an unintended loop hole in an arguably flawed system which I am sure the D.E.C themselves would now acknowledge.


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## beeman (Oct 14, 2010)

I keep and breed mainly WA Stimmies,( have a few other species as well) and only breed a relatively small amount of animals every year!
I put a price on them that is higher than what most people are selling for of late and guess what they sell!
It come back to the fact that a quality well colored and marked animal will still bring a reasonable price!


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## Cheyne_Jones (Oct 14, 2010)

Like it or not the bulk of the market has changed. With all the morphs being bred and the sheer number of hets, sibs, non morphs left over prices have to change when supply exceeds demand. I believe most people dont want normal wild type animals any more, they seem to need an albino this or rpm that to fulfill their needs, and there is no problem with that. 

We just have to come to terms with this fact, its not about money anyway.

Personally I have come to the conclusion, after trying to move some animals on for a while now, that i will be giving away a few pairs this year. I'd say this will become more common with your run of the mill non-morphs, and so be it, I hope they make a few people happy.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2010)

URS are advertising this seasons GTP hatchies for sale as of now... $1000 each... guess some predictions were wrong


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2010)

Good comment Jason, that's how it should be. Who needs to listen to someone's imagination?


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## zuesowns (Oct 14, 2010)

You cannot stop breeding, especially if your selling in pairs. No one has more right to breed than the next person.

Licensing is not going to stop breeding, they will do it illegally...a lot more illegal activity is going on right now...

Yes people complain about the price and say things on a public forum, does that effect your price?

Yes breeders take offense to this as they are trying to sell, remember this is a public forum...

Joe blog is still going to sell their reptiles at a cheaper price to get the sale, if one person is selling albino's for $900 and another person is selling at $1000 - person selling at $1000 isn't going to be happy about another person selling less to get the sale... But really it's out of your control, it's your competition.

I haven't keept up to date on prices, but from what I can see they are dropping and fast, however new species are remaining at a high price...


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## PhilK (Oct 14, 2010)

Jesus $1000 for greens? Hell yeah!



cris said:


> Seems like a contradiction, breeding licences already exist in WA and dont work (going off everything i have heard anyway), they promote poaching and also make it virtually impossible for the average keeper to breed a small number of reptiles for the experience and enjoyment, rather than a making money venture to cover the breeding licence.


 I'm afraid you misunderstand me cris... I mean the only thing this thread has made clear is we should be issuing breeding licence FOR people.. not to people for snakes...


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## mrs_davo (Oct 14, 2010)

GTP's at $1000 ea is very different to the much higher price that was demanded by all, not that long ago.( I remember $9k per hatchie)

So therefor as more & more are being bred & by more people the price will drop as people try to sell offspring to recovery money spent.

The demand will always be there for quality, good looking snakes, but the price will not always stay up there.

If one does not like the price that you get don't sell. Don't breed more than is in demand. Keep as pet until price recovers if it does.
Sometimes the economic climate has a draw down on peoples spending ability.

Cheers Ian.


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## ntvnm (Oct 14, 2010)

in the states CHILDREN keep green tree pythons  once people get a clue they will be kept and bred easily...most reptile money making kings CUT CORNERS ,carpets are pretty hardy and forgiving and forgive most corners cut...how ever Gtps aren't as forgiving.

up until now all people have done is chuck a few carpets together ,they are so hardy and easy to breed of course they will flood the market.

This reptile slump will rid this hobby of most the little insects and weeds (unfortunately not all, they moved on to another side of the carpet python) and with more people gaining experience ,people will soon realize that they aren't that hard to keep once you understand what they need as a reptile, they will thrive.

There is NO reason why they cant be bred ,thrive and be as common as a coastal carpet in Australia ,as long as people learn and understand what they need. 

$500 per hatchling would cover the costs and support your ''hobby''
in the herp world we spend heaps on snakes at herp shows and think nothing of it...$500 is still a decent amount of money...i don't care who you are.

if a keeper lived in victoria or sydney ,then you would have my respect...that would be a slight challange, if a keeper lived in there natural range. that would be simple chucking a few snakes together. big deal anyone can do that.


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## Jay84 (Oct 14, 2010)

$1000.00 for a GTP from URS? 

I'm sure you will be able to pick them up cheaper than that once thre are alot in the for sale threads!

I may go buy another tub lol


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## cris (Oct 14, 2010)

Does anyone buy a pair of expensive reptiles without the intention of breeding them? I know a small number of people would buy an individual if they have plenty of disposable income just because they look nice(or whatever else), but surely the majority buying expensive pairs would want to breed them and get some money back wouldnt they? If i payed more than $500 for something i know i would definately want to breed it and couldnt justify spending that much if i didnt think i would be likely to get it back. 



PhilK said:


> I'm afraid you misunderstand me cris... I mean the only thing this thread has made clear is we should be issuing breeding licence FOR people.. not to people for snakes...


 
Well you make a good point. Although thats a whole other debate.


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## burger (Oct 14, 2010)

Jason said:


> URS are advertising this seasons GTP hatchies for sale as of now... $1000 each... guess some predictions were wrong


 
Did anyone else notice that prior to the recent update, they used to say minimum 10 feeds before sale, and now it is minimum 6?

Less cautious, or just more keen to move the stock quickly...?


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## burger (Oct 14, 2010)

Jason said:


> URS are advertising this seasons GTP hatchies for sale as of now... $1000 each... guess some predictions were wrong


 
Did anyone else notice that prior to the recent update, they used to say minimum 10 feeds before sale, and now it is minimum 6?

Less cautious, or just more keen to move the stock quickly...?


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## Chadleystar (Oct 14, 2010)

I guess there is always that old saying that you get what you pay for. I think there will always be a market for quality verus quantity and with I think especially is the case with certain snakes. It is just a matter of establishing yourself in a niche corner of the market and staying ahead of your competitors or offering something that they do not (which is not as easy as I just made it sound). There is other aspects that also need to be concidered and that is at what age some snakes can breed or the difficulty in breding some animals, if you purchase a snake that does not reach sexual maturity until 3-4 years of age you can not expect that you will be able to sell this snakes offspring for the same price as you purchaced the adult. I think if you plan on breeding and selling reptiles you have to realistic about what you what out of the venture and those that will thrive will be those that can think outside of just the breeding area of the hobby.IMO


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## PimmsPythons (Oct 14, 2010)

burger said:


> Did anyone else notice that prior to the recent update, they used to say minimum 10 feeds before sale, and now it is minimum 6?
> 
> Less cautious, or just more keen to move the stock quickly...?


 
i'd say both reasons. they aren't $9000 snakes anymore and there are alot to move.thats alot of pinkies to be feeding alot of snakes.but even 6 unassisted feeds is more than enough to prove they feed.hell,i'm happy to get a juvi snake with 4 unassisted feeds


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 14, 2010)

Quality is always worth the price in my books and I support the ones that are breeding quality animals! I have purchased a heap of "top" of the line animals for top dollar because they are different and were sold by breeders that deserve to sell them for that price, because of all the time and effort it took to get that morph, we're talking many years. i'm sure people know my stance on dropping the price to sell there animals which it turn crucifies the small breeder.
Glad i have a day job...;-) As cement has said, the money is in the husbandry equipment or food items NOT the animals themselves, as herps are now the hip animal to own! 
Sell some quality enclosures or cheaper food and that's where the money is kiddies, IF your love of the hobby is superficial and only pocket deep!


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 14, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Sell some quality enclosures or cheaper food and that's where the money is kiddies, IF your love of the hobby is superficial and only pocket deep!


 I wish...The top quality enclosures we sell are mostly for the love of it at this stage....It seems like a lot of money that we charge, but not if you realise the amount of materials and man hours that go into them. Ha ha


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## cockney red (Oct 14, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> I wish...The top quality enclosures we sell are mostly for the love of it at this stage....It seems like a lot of money that we charge, but not if you realise the amount of materials and man hours that go into them. Ha ha


 
With you mate, I build all my enclosures, and It costs a bloody fortune..even with better prices for bulk glass etc...Idont know how you blokes make a quid...


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 14, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> I wish...The top quality enclosures we sell are mostly for the love of it at this stage....It seems like a lot of money that we charge, but not if you realise the amount of materials and man hours that go into them. Ha ha



Yeh I guess, silly comment from me to you PRO guys, as I do feel for you guys that are trying to make a buck that are genuine chippies etc and have a Business that are supplying the hobby ATM, no offense intended! Its the same thing JPN, you have invested in the hobby and can only produce a "quality" product at a cost that covers you and makes a profit....just the same as the breeders that spend years refining their animals. 
I guess its my point that once the trend is set all the "genuine" people get screwed. My advice ..source the cheaper material JFN & Cockney Red and sell them cheaper and i'll buy a few just to help you guys that are passionate!
Cheers and point taken! 
BTW, just on that note, I have purchased some "quality" display enclosures that are still looking smick after many years and have purchased some budget ones as well. Guess which ones are still on display and which ones were put in the junk pile when the Council clean up was?


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## Camo (Oct 14, 2010)

slimebo said:


> i'd say both reasons. they aren't $9000 snakes anymore and there are alot to move.thats alot of pinkies to be feeding alot of snakes.but even 6 unassisted feeds is more than enough to prove they feed.hell,i'm happy to get a juvi snake with 4 unassisted feeds


Exactly. Its all time and money for the larger breeders.


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## Jimi (Oct 14, 2010)

You pay for what you get.

The reptile market will always fluctuate, there will always be a new morph or a new species in captivity that will be on everyones wish list.

It is a complete waste of time trying to predict the market.


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## Waterrat (Oct 14, 2010)

Jimi said:


> It is a complete waste of time trying to predict the market.


 
I salute you.


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## mrs_davo (Oct 14, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I salute you.


I seconnd that.
let us not make it too hard for young ones to have the excitement & glory of breeding a reptile & see it emerge from the egg. I am sure that we all remember the first time we saw it.
Ian.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 14, 2010)

According to some interesting statistics that were presented at the symposium; there are only about a 100 full time breeders in the USA. The US market is 50 times larger than the Australian market. That means there is effectively room for 2 full time breeders in Australia! Just something to think about. I see Antaresia and carpet pythons going down the same path as the corn snakes and king snakes in America and the rest of the world for that matter. The corn and kingsnakes are gateway or entry level reptiles. I predict that they will be around the $20-30 mark before we know it! This will make them a lot more attractive to people just entering the reptile hobby. They will be a stepping stone for newbies to learn the ins and outs of keeping them. This unfortunately makes them expendable, almost like necessary collateral damage for the market to grow. This influx of new herpers will generate a demand for product and husbandry equipment, this will in turn affect the rest of the market. It has happened in most other countries and will happen here! Albinos in petshops will also create an awareness of the morphs. These albinos will also draw others in that might not have liked the dull look of standard snakes. There is a reason why the market took off like it did in other countries, it happened with the introduction of colour and pattern variants! I can not say that i have met anybody that did not like an Albino snake. Regardless of the type. Wait and see people!


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## Wally (Oct 14, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> They will be a stepping stone for newbies to learn the ins and outs of keeping them. This unfortunately makes them expendable, almost like necessary collateral damage for the market to grow.


 
I can only imagine APS when these times are upon us.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 14, 2010)

I forgot to mention that the drop in prices will weed out those that can't afford to look after dozens of hatching that are worth only a few dollars each. Its all necessary growing pains that the market has to undergo for it to reach equilibrium.There are some exciting times ahead.


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## Kurama (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting point carpetpythons.com.au but we are not the US, the future of Australian herpetoculture will differ in many ways from the US.


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## Jay84 (Oct 14, 2010)

Raven said:


> Interesting point carpetpythons.com.au but we are not the US, the future of Australian herpetoculture will differ in many ways from the US.


 
iT WILL DIFFER, BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SIMILARITIES.


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## -Matt- (Oct 14, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SIMILARITIES.



As in a lot of our new morphs that are popping up once lived there?


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## Jay84 (Oct 14, 2010)

Mattsnake said:


> As in a lot of our new morphs that are popping up once lived there?


 
Hahahahaha.....


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 14, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> According to some interesting statistics that were presented at the symposium; there are only about a 100 full time breeders in the USA. The US market is 50 times larger than the Australian market. That means there is effectively room for 2 full time breeders in Australia! Just something to think about. I see Antaresia and carpet pythons going down the same path as the corn snakes and king snakes in America and the rest of the world for that matter. The corn and kingsnakes are gateway or entry level reptiles. I predict that they will be around the $20-30 mark before we know it! This will make them a lot more attractive to people just entering the reptile hobby. They will be a stepping stone for newbies to learn the ins and outs of keeping them. This unfortunately makes them expendable, almost like necessary collateral damage for the market to grow. This influx of new herpers will generate a demand for product and husbandry equipment, this will in turn affect the rest of the market. It has happened in most other countries and will happen here! Albinos in petshops will also create an awareness of the morphs. These albinos will also draw others in that might not have liked the dull look of standard snakes. There is a reason why the market took off like it did in other countries, it happened with the introduction of colour and pattern variants! I can not say that i have met anybody that did not like an Albino snake. Regardless of the type. Wait and see people!



I agree 100%, this will be what happens for sure!


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## cris (Oct 14, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> I agree 100%, this will be what happens for sure!


 
I agree 95%, not a fan of 99% of the albinos i have seen, albino rats are better than most of them. That said they would be ideal for uses such as feeders, making meat and skin products etc. as poaching isnt an issue with albinos.



Jimi said:


> It is a complete waste of time trying to predict the market.


 
Not really, its important to realise that reptiles arnt an automatic magical source of large profit as they seem to be for some. If you want to breed reptiles to cover your costs or make money you need to think about what is going to happen further down the track, lots of reptile breeding needs to be planned 2-4 years in advance of when you are going to be selling hatchies. Some people are actually suprised by prices going down, they obviously havnt thought about it or are pretty dumb.



ian_davo said:


> I seconnd that.
> let us not make it too hard for young ones to have the excitement & glory of breeding a reptile & see it emerge from the egg. I am sure that we all remember the first time we saw it.
> Ian.





These people arnt likely to care about making money, whats wrong with a kid being able to buy a common snake at the same prices common lizards and turtles have always been? I have bred heaps of non herp animals that i never paid for(or were extremely cheap) and never sold or made any money from them, its still the same enjoyable learning experience. I even like breeding things like rats, quail and fish, have never made a cent or payed much for any of it.


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## Teamsherman (Oct 14, 2010)

Prices are dropping cause quite frankly, we are all tight-bums. 

Why would anyone pay $150 for something they can get for $50? 

If there are 10 sellers out there selling the same $100 product, then in time one of those sellers will get impatient, and lower the price of their product to try to undersell the others. When the others see this, they too lower their prices. If they dont, they get stuck with a product that is costing them more and more money which they do not want to fork out. 

And what has been the main argument for the last 9 pages of this thread? The fact that the amount of hatchling reptiles coming up for sale every season is getting bigger and bigger, there will be more and more sellers on the market in years to come meaning what every hobbyist wants to hear, cheaper herps!

And yes, i'll put money on it that in 15 years time or even sooner, GTP's will be priced the way of todays coastals. (Thats only if our licensing and regulations all stay as they are).

Lets just say that the only reptiles australia will have to worry about over the years will be our wild and venemous ones.


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## Camo (Oct 15, 2010)

CarpetPythons.com.au said:


> I predict that they will be around the $20-30 mark before we know it!


Could not agree more. Just have a look at most of the morelia for sale on here. They have been bumped 10 times and gone from "Jungle python $600" to "Jungle python $150"

Just how it happens.


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## derekm (Oct 15, 2010)

burger said:


> Did anyone else notice that prior to the recent update, they used to say minimum 10 feeds before sale, and now it is minimum 6?
> 
> Less cautious, or just more keen to move the stock quickly...?


 
Or just the consistent observation over a number of seasons that, if a hatchie takes 6 unassisted feeds, then feeds 7, 8, 9 and 10 are never a problem?


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## ezekiel86 (Oct 15, 2010)

so where do we all seeing the market end up?
I have Few Greens from URS and payed alot more then that..the parents where from better lines but damn...
moving them for the 1000 bucks would be an easy thing for Tim to do...great pythons great breeder great price...but if your looking at it from their point..they can move 200 hatchie in no time for 1000each...everyone would like a quick 200k right 
If he breeds the ultimate blue line next year im sure he will be asking more then 1000 each but thats just me thinking out loud hahahah any other green breeders dropping their prices?


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

The real battle will start when GTPs will hit the $500.- mark. It will then be damn hard for someone to undercut others. A mate of mine who also breed natives (not Adrian) undercuts me every year by 500 bucks and he thinks he is winning. I wonder, will he sells his GTPs for $1.- if I advertise mine for 500? This may all be hypothetical but some people are just unable to think even two years ahead and they don't realise they're slowly cutting their own throats. 
Just some food for thought.


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## vitticep (Oct 15, 2010)

The cheaper the better, the only people wanting high prices are the ones selling them. They have cut their prices by over 50% themselves. 'Aussie' greens especially have plummeted. I could only imagine they will be $1000 too next season.
Albinos already advertised for $900ea - wait til March, they will be $250 animals.
Vittie


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

vitticeps, you have obviously never bred a thing, not to mention GTPs. Do you have any idea how much work goes into rearing up a batch of juveniles for one year? We (breeders) don't want high prices, we want fair prices. Think again about your statement "the cheaper, the better".


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## vitticep (Oct 15, 2010)

Waterrat - you have only bred them 3 times yourself, in 3 years time I would have as much experience as you :lol:






Waterrat said:


> vitticeps, you have obviously never bred a thing, not to mention GTPs. Do you have any idea how much work goes into rearing up a batch of juveniles for one year? We (breeders) don't want high prices, we want fair prices. Think again about your statement "the cheaper, the better".


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## zuesowns (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey! I have to pay "high prices" or market price for pythons i'm not going to breed or make money...


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## jeramie85 (Oct 15, 2010)

in reading some of this and seeing the price drops
i think its a good thing prices coming down to a certain extent as more people can get into the hobby
however my biggest fear is that they will end up dogs and we will start seeing alot more xbreds eg coastalxdiamond yes to some this is fine me personally i dont like it and more to the point before you start winging about this its not the actual xs being sold at first its in 5 years time when they are being sold as pure animals because people loosing track or advertising them as a pure when they are a cross

at the end of the day yes people will only pay what they are willing to pay for anything

but at the same time people will still pay top dollar for species from specific breeders or lines colour pattern etc

maybe some of the bigger breeders may take a year or 2 out and not breed for a while if they arnt actually in it for the money everything will balance itself out eventually and who knows sadly enough with all these cheap prices for the next few years many new people will come into the hobby and breed and x breed and eventually we will be over flooded with impure lines and people going back to paying top dollar for pure animals with a proven history/lineage 

just my thoughts 

but on another note ill be buying a pair of gtps when they come down to $500 
and looking at prices ill be able to get my collection finished off sooner then i had planned when i got back into it all
and no my list of wanted/desired pythons is not all the "top" priced ones im just after pure pairs of selected breeds for myself for when everything gets crossed at least i know mine wont be and only want to breed really if freinds/family are after what i have


anywho im rambling and havnt said everything i wanted to but as ive said before low prices are good and bad and eventually everything will stabilise out even if it takes a few years


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## SamNabz (Oct 15, 2010)

vitticep said:


> The cheaper the better, the only people wanting high prices are the ones selling them. They have cut their prices by over 50% themselves. 'Aussie' greens especially have plummeted. I could only imagine they will be $1000 too next season.
> Albinos already advertised for $900ea - wait til March, they will be $250 animals.
> Vittie



Shocking statement... A lot of work, time and money goes into rearing hatchies and the lower the price goes the less the breeder gets back therefor making the breeder question whether or not it is worth trying to create something new and exciting for the rest of us to enjoy.
If you are not willing to pay the advertised price for the more sought after snakes then buy something in your price range??! Bringing the prices down is a terrible idea but unfortunately it's the way our hobby is seemingly heading...


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## zuesowns (Oct 15, 2010)

vitticep said:


> Waterrat - you have only bred them 3 times yourself, in 3 years time I would have as much experience as you :lol:


 
Sorry Vitticep, I have to disagree, have you read the articles by Waterrat? he isn't just a average breeder that breeds GTP, he's keept them and has been studying them for years and years - he deserves more respect.

With all do respect of course


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

vitticep said:


> Waterrat - you have only bred them 3 times yourself, in 3 years time I would have as much experience as you :lol:


 

You cracked me up! Where did you that from? Man, stop shooting yourself in the foot, it hurts.


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## Poggle (Oct 15, 2010)

zuesowns said:


> Sorry Vitticep, I have to disagree, have you read the articles by Waterrat? he isn't just a average breeder that breeds GTP, he's keept them and has been studying them for years and years - he deserves more respect.
> 
> With all do respect of course


 
I agree, i have seen water rats GTP, and quality on the market should be some thing we look at not pricing.

I used to breed and sell most breeds, before i even knew this site existed. I never had a problem selling and getting the price i have wanted. It comes back to what others have said. A common thing known as prostituting the market. Happens with everything.

Someone has a really good quality line of snakes, BHP are a good example of this. They go for the correct price, and am amutuer comes out and cuts it by $200. Next year the same thing, therfor this will ruin the market and leave us all with low prices.

If people, want to keep under cutting, remember it will only affect you in the long run too


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 15, 2010)

Vitticep: A perfect example of biting off more than you can chew. Maybe the breeders can band together and control the value on animals. In this way keeping prices steady and forcing buyers to pay a set rate. But i can just imagine the bitching and moaning that will happen then. We are lucky in that we don't have any expense when it comes to our feed for our stock. It only costs us electricity. Unfortunately the overheads involved in raising young forces 90% of keepers to lower their prices in desperation to offload their stock. Buyers also just wait it out as breeders are the reason behind all the price drops. Buyers will pay what breeders want if they all just hold to the Market value set at the start of the season. We set our price at $1000 per albino for the season, this is a fair price. If all albino breeders stuck to this price then buyers would have to pay market value. Just wait and see how people start undercutting each other. Some are already undercutting and they have not even hatched their snakes. These threads always turn out as an argument between the breeders and the cheap skates that expect everything for nothing. It's a good reflection on the immaturity of of the reptile hobby in Australia.


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

"Maybe the breeders can band together and control the value on animals"

ha, ha, ha, please read my post on previous page. And this is a mate of mine! We couldn't band together for a drink, not to mention anything more serious.

If reptiles become worthless, i.e. very, very cheap, there won't be any available because most breeders would give up altogethr, some will scale their "hobby" down to a minimum that's not going to cost much to run and we will be swapping animals between us like we did 30 years ago. WHERE IS IT GOING TO LEAVE THE PRICE KNOCKERS and the undercutters?


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 15, 2010)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Off the subject somewhat, but just to clear up the W.A farmers licence misconception. Any W.A reptile keeper can indeed breed as many reptiles as one likes without having to obtain a farmers licence. A farmers licence is required however if a keeper wishes to sell more than one clutch to a dealer. This doesn't stop keepers breeding multiple clutches and legally using a licensed dealer ( by donation as unwanted stock to the dealer) to transfer those to other keepers. What financial arrangements both keepers conjure up between themselves would generally be unknown to the D.E.C and to the dealer. In my case, as I hold both a keepers and a dealer’s licence, I donate my own unwanted stock (any number of clutches) to myself and as a dealer can then legally on sell it as I please. This is just an unintended loop hole in an arguably flawed system which I am sure the D.E.C themselves would now acknowledge.



It's now 6 1/2 years since CALM/DEC brought in the current WA laws. This, and other glaring flaws in the system there were pointed out to them the day the laws were proclaimed in Parliament... they have yet to respond... 6.5 years later...

Re: GTP prices - there is often a HUGE amount of time (and work) involved in getting reluctant clutches to feed - an average of at least $1k is not unreasonable for something which has been painstakingly hand raised months before you get it. The first ones on the market may conceal dozens which remain with the breeder for quite some time until they are ready. I'm speaking of non-natives here...

Jamie.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 15, 2010)

dst1980 said:


> .....This is great for the buyers, but a nightmare for those who spent there hard earned cash on expensive breeders .....



I see the good and bad to both sides of this market. For someone like me who can't afford the high prices of such beautiful animals, seeing them at these prices makes one's dream become more real to reach. However in saying that, I never just go for the cheapest price. I don't want a BHP that isn't gonna look like one when it grows up. If I have to pay bigger money for one that looks better than the cheap one, I will save my pennies and make it happen. Even if I have to wait a year or two. 

Anyone can afford it if you are patient.


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## Poggle (Oct 15, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> WHERE IS IT GOING TO LEAVE THE PRICE KNOCKERS and the undercutters?




Finding some else to try and make money out of.

Years ago when i first got into reptiles. It was more about doing some thing you love, some thing you are passionate for.

Today it all seems about money.


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

Poggle said:


> Finding some else to try and make money out of.



But these losers have never made any money from reptiles. It's all hot air. How can anyone with that sort of mentality and attitude ever be successful in making money in any walk of life?

I agree with the rest of you post all the way.


Enough for today, going fishing.


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## CodeRed (Oct 15, 2010)

APS would be so boring without pricing threads


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## byron_moses (Oct 15, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> APS would be so boring without pricing threads


 dont forget the can i house my beardy with my snakes thread


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## mysnakesau (Oct 15, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> "Maybe the breeders can band together and control the value on animals"
> 
> ha, ha, ha, please read my post on previous page. And this is a mate of mine! We couldn't band together for a drink, not to mention anything more serious.
> 
> If reptiles become worthless, i.e. very, very cheap, there won't be any available because most breeders would give up altogethr, some will scale their "hobby" down to a minimum that's not going to cost much to run and we will be swapping animals between us like we did 30 years ago. WHERE IS IT GOING TO LEAVE THE PRICE KNOCKERS and the undercutters?


 
I am not one to follow political threads. I just like the animal side but if you have a good reputation then I am sure ppl will come back to you. Ppl in it just for money won't care about learning anything about the animals or their background. But ppl like you have great quality animals and know your stuff. Bit like someone buying a $30 DVD player from Woolies or paying $300 from a Electrical Store. The ppl at Big W can't tell you jack crap about how the DVD player works. whereas the sales team at the Electrical Store have better knowledge of what they are selling. Couldn't this kind of thing be enough to keep the prices up on the reptiles? You'll have ppl that go for the cheapest but you'll also have many more who want to do their homework properly and more willing to pay the better price from a better breeder. Well, I speak for myself anyway. I have a selected few I'd buy from. If their prices are higher than Jo BLow's, I am willing to pay the higher price to get what I want, and friendly advice from the sellers rather than having Jo Blow tell me "Don't know, I'm just selling them."

I can't afford everything overnight but am patient and can wait. Anyone can afford it if they put their mind to it.


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## Slateman (Oct 15, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> APS would be so boring without pricing threads


You are right there mate.
Also integrates and cuts are popular here.


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## shellfisch (Oct 15, 2010)

mysnakesau said:


> I am not one to follow political threads. I just like the animal side but if you have a good reputation then I am sure ppl will come back to you. Ppl in it just for money won't care about learning anything about the animals or their background. But ppl like you have great quality animals and know your stuff. Bit like someone buying a $30 DVD player from Woolies or paying $300 from a Electrical Store. The ppl at Big W can't tell you jack crap about how the DVD player works. whereas the sales team at the Electrical Store have better knowledge of what they are selling. Couldn't this kind of thing be enough to keep the prices up on the reptiles? You'll have ppl that go for the cheapest but you'll also have many more who want to do their homework properly and more willing to pay the better price from a better breeder. Well, I speak for myself anyway. I have a selected few I'd buy from. If their prices are higher than Jo BLow's, I am willing to pay the higher price to get what I want, and friendly advice from the sellers rather than having Jo Blow tell me "Don't know, I'm just selling them."
> I can't afford everything overnight but am patient and can wait. Anyone can afford it if they put their mind to it.



+1 
Thats pretty much how I feel also


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## Poggle (Oct 15, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> But these losers have never made any money from reptiles. It's all hot air. How can anyone with that sort of mentality and attitude ever be successful in making money in any walk of life?
> 
> I agree with the rest of you post all the way.
> 
> ...


 
Kind of like vitticeps said to you. About having your experience in 3 years. I have bred GTP and i KNOW for FACT they are not an easy thing to breed. Some one cam out a while ago and sai wow they are not hard.
Well i can say whether they are hard or not to some, they take time and effort.

I was on the for front of breeding striped coastals. I sold them for the price i believed they deserved. A couple of years later someone i sold to "no names used here" fluked a clutch, and had 25% born striped. Sold them for half the price and the decline of stripes have been that way since.

Same with BHP, GTP etc etc. Elapids are going the same way, even with courses now available. herping has now become to easy for people to get their hands on herop they do not understand nor know how to look after. A few years ago before my health went down hill, i had pairs and trio's of most breeds, yet i only got a few cluths in the year, a i was not all about breeding, more about researching for my self, the different morphs and temprements, suitability and sustainability of diferent breeding strains, it was my passion.

Who here has seen people advertising . WANTED ADULTS for breeding. They dont want the process of getting to know the snake. They just want to breed and get the benefits, if there are any now days.


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## byron_moses (Oct 15, 2010)

Poggle said:


> Who here has seen people advertising . WANTED ADULTS for breeding. They dont want the process of getting to know the snake. They just want to breed and get the benefits, if there are any now days.


 couldnt agree more i have a pair of hatchy darwins here which have some striping and i am sure there are people with adults like them but they cme from my dads first clutch so we are holding them back to se what we can acheive from them not what we can make off them


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## Jay84 (Oct 15, 2010)

Poggle said:


> Finding some else to try and make money out of.
> 
> Years ago when i first got into reptiles. It was more about doing some thing you love, some thing you are passionate for.
> 
> Today it all seems about money.


 
These UNDERCUTTERS may not be all ''about money'' , maybe, just maybe some of these UNDERCUTTERS are just in it for the love of the animals, and would like to share this with others by selling their animals at a more affordable price?


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> These UNDERCUTTERS may not be all ''about money'' , maybe, just maybe some of these UNDERCUTTERS are just in it for the love of the animals, and would like to share this with others by selling their animals at a more affordable price?


 
Jay, affordable price is an arbitrary figure. As you can see in some of the posts here, for some affordable price is $10.-, whilst other don't mind to may thousands. I really don't think the undercutters are selling cheap to satisfy the buyers. They're doing it to sell faster than the rest. It's a free world ..... la, la, la but give it time, they'll be the first out of the game when the crunch comes.


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## zuesowns (Oct 15, 2010)

To be honest, the average pet people pay for do not cost Thousands, and really reptiles have been in the hundred thousands and still are.. I'm not saying the affordable price is $10 but why would you pay for reptile that cost's half of your house or the cost of your car etc? The fact the prices dropped dramatically from tens of thousands to thousands or even hundreds, it's clear they were way over priced, in the long run - I guess because it's rare and new it does deserve a high price, but everything new is a high price - year(s) later it drops, it's not just reptiles....it's everything.

That said, I don't think paying under $100 for a reptile is a fair price (for any pythons) 

Maybe i'm delusional to think that paying thousand(s) of dollars for a python is over priced.

No offense to anyone. FYI i'm not trying to drop prices for breeders. If a python is $10k and I want one, i'll wait till it drops an affordable price that I can justify to myself, I also am not one to pay minmal for best quality. A lot of people want best service, quality for minmal price...not me.


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## jeramie85 (Oct 15, 2010)

poggle there are also people out there that have a m/f that they have had since hatchy that is now old enough to breed so they are looking for a m/f partner for it and planning on just keeping a baby or 2 to grow up and breed with/from and hoping to somewhat selectively breed to suit themselves for pattern/colour etc as you have to start somewhere 

or even people that have had hatchies and are now moving onto the next step there babies have grown up and now are interested in breeding and cooling and starting from the start an egg

or maybe if it you want to put it down to dollar value buying an adult now days is the same price as a hatchy for most pythons so why not buy an adult pair have babies keep what you like the look of and sell the rest to me that would make more sense to breed yourself sell what you dont want that way you start of with colours/patterns and you can get your money back on the pair you bought

i was looking at the adult bhps on here purely because the female more then likely is pregnant and in all honesty all i was going to do was keep 2 bubs to give to my partner and sell everything else to cover costs of purchasing the adults just like ive been looking around for a female bredli to go with my male as some people on here would know who ive contacted 
but theres always next year im not in a rush 

just saying not trying to argue not everyone who buys adults are purely after them to sell all the bubs to make money some people like me can see that buying a good healthy adult capable of breeding can be the same price (sometimes less) then buying a hatchy so buy breed and you end up with the hatchies you want and you get your money back (or some of it anyway)

anyway i think this topic is exhausted


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## Poggle (Oct 15, 2010)

jeramie85 said:


> poggle there are also people out there that have a m/f that they have had since hatchy that is now old enough to breed so they are looking for a m/f partner for it and planning on just keeping a baby or 2 to grow up and breed with/from and hoping to somewhat selectively breed to suit themselves for pattern/colour etc as you have to start somewhere



I totally agree with you mate. Some people do that for that particular reason. I was not trying to cause an argument either. Just trying to back up the facts, if you buy a stud bull you pay for it. Same for snakes, if you want quality you more then likely will pay for it.

I also understand that people outthere buy adults simply to match their pair, but alot to just want adults to try and breed straight away.


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## cockney red (Oct 15, 2010)

Slateman said:


> You are right there mate.
> Also integrates and cuts are popular here.


 
Been to war many a time on Intergrade threads Slatey....but warming the bench Is boring...


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 15, 2010)

zuesowns said:


> To be honest, the average pet people pay for do not cost Thousands, and really reptiles have been in the hundred thousands and still are.. I'm not saying the affordable price is $10 but why would you pay for reptile that cost's half of your house or the cost of your car etc? The fact the prices dropped dramatically from tens of thousands to thousands or even hundreds, it's clear they were way over priced, in the long run - I guess because it's rare and new it does deserve a high price, but everything new is a high price - year(s) later it drops, it's not just reptiles....it's everything.
> 
> That said, I don't think paying under $100 for a reptile is a fair price (for any pythons)
> 
> ...



That is a fair and HONEST reply! I DO admire that and it does voice an opinion of "probably" most of the "median" true herpers out there in the community that just want a varied collection of animals. I still feel its a shame for the pioneers who invest in the hobby for us all now to benefit. It is true, almost everything comes down in price after the honeymoon period, but just slaughtering the market for a quick sale, sets a precedent that will never be changed...although IF the US market is a key indicator, things will swing, but thats another debate again...pure "quality" animals V X's/hybrids.


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## Jay84 (Oct 15, 2010)

People say once prices are down they will never increase.... This is not always the case.

Years ago as a boy i used to keep and breed birds. Mainly finches and a few parrots. They started off a certain rice and then gradually decreased.

I went overseas for 5 years.... when i came back, certain birds were DOUBLE the price they were years previous!

Cuban finches, star finches, longtail finches. I remember all of these being $40 a pair. Now they are $80 and above! Same with certain parrot species.


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## impulse reptiles (Oct 15, 2010)

g'day Waterrat ,whats the point of wasting your time posting rubbish? besides areas you obviously excel at ie gtp husbandry and breeding that's the info you should be giving out, minus the smart alec comments that go along with it....you seem like a successful mature human being ,so why waste time throwing bananas at monkeys?


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

G'day fusion,

As if I wasn't giving enough info here and elsewhere. The rubbish is coming from the monkeys, I am just trying to install some balance. You are right, I am wasting my time, besides, I am starting to feel lonely ......I seem to be the only one fighting the knockers. So, I take your advice.


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 15, 2010)

fusion said:


> g'day Waterrat ,whats the point of wasting your time posting rubbish? besides areas you obviously excel at ie gtp husbandry and breeding that's the info you should be giving out, minus the smart alec comments that go along with it....you seem like a successful mature human being ,so why waste time throwing bananas at monkeys?


 I would hope that quality animals that you may produce over the years through refined breeding projects, keep their price for the effort you put in, don't you? Thats fair in my books.


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## ihaveherps (Oct 15, 2010)

Some talk about "yrs ago" like they were there... I was for a little bit, and will gaurantee for the most part, that many faces now in the hobby wouldnt have lasted a second. Fortunately times have changed, accessability to animals is now at our fingertips, and shared knowledge is at a premium, though we are at the times of the catch 22.... do we seriously allow our animals to be devalued to the point of being expendable? Me, Im on the fence.... a part of me likes that animals are coming down, almost worthless in some cases, only for knowing that the offspring are worth less than the export costs, and that a future owner will think twice about breeding animals of next to no worth (considering depreciation is a fairly consistant phenomenon when availability is exponential). Im not one to preach prices to be colluded, or really care what others are selling for, but to be a sustainable hobby, for the most part, we have to create our own sustainable economy. Fortunately, like most other animal related hobbies, the crash is enevitable, though the future depends on the reaction.


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## impulse reptiles (Oct 15, 2010)

its a forum Waterrat, cars ,bikes ,snakes ,elavators (yes elavators), Cats...all have haters.
its pointless trying to install balance, prices are dropping only time will tell...not much we can do about it.


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## Waterrat (Oct 15, 2010)

fusion said:


> ...not much we can do about it.



Agree but we don't have to support it. Silence and inaction can mean support.


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## impulse reptiles (Oct 15, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> I would hope that quality animals that you may produce over the years through refined breeding projects, keep their price for the effort you put in, don't you? Thats fair in my books.



mate at the end of the day even quality will struggle to sell ,if someone can get it somewere else cheaper, most people wont care about quality....its a nice thought that people will be honest with the animals they sell and people will pay what they are worth...but in todays herp scene, its drop your prices or keep your hatchy racks filled.


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 15, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> Some talk about "yrs ago" like they were there... I was for a little bit, and will gaurantee for the most part, that many faces now in the hobby wouldnt have lasted a second. Fortunately times have changed, accessability to animals is now at our fingertips, and shared knowledge is at a premium, though we are at the times of the catch 22.... do we seriously allow our animals to be devalued to the point of being expendable? Me, Im on the fence.... a part of me likes that animals are coming down, almost worthless in some cases, only for knowing that the offspring are worth less than the export costs, and that a future owner will think twice about breeding animals of next to no worth (considering depreciation is a fairly consistant phenomenon when availability is exponential). Im not one to preach prices to be colluded, or really care what others are selling for, but to be a sustainable hobby, for the most part, we have to create our own sustainable economy. Fortunately, like most other animal related hobbies, the crash is enevitable, though the future depends on the reaction.


Hello..that was my next comment word for word ihaveherps, thanks for stealing it! Seriously though, that is my thoughts to a tee! Thanks mate!


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## Chris1 (Oct 15, 2010)

i assume that once prices reach rock bottom alot of people wont be able to afford to breed and raise them anymroe, and then demand will once again outweigh supply and prices can rise again,...prices have been dropping too fast for the trend to continue.


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## impulse reptiles (Oct 15, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Agree but we don't have to support it. Silence and inaction can mean support.


 
too True....most of the hybrid haters stopped , now look what has happend. 
but good things are going to come from it IMO...just look at barramundis threads.

Cheers


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 15, 2010)

fusion said:


> mate at the end of the day even quality will struggle to sell ,if someone can get it somewere else cheaper, most people wont care about quality....its a nice thought that people will be honest with the animals they sell and people will pay what they are worth...but in todays herp scene, its drop your prices or keep your hatchy racks filled.


Thats the reality NOW. But wont always will be.
Now that we are talking on a Business perspective yeh, I will share something that I experience daily as an example and a "trend". I have a Business that was many years ago, 100% solely based on dept of Housing Maintenance Contracts. Now we have grown the Business and diversified in Solar PV installs both residential and in schools and other "CURRENT" niche markets throughout Australia. Since investing and leading in this new and "hip" market for the interim technologies, we have not forgotten our roots (Housing contracts)....there are so many Companies now tendering and flooding the market with the new and hip Solar PV market, that prices have dropped dramatically and will be at a point very soon where I will pull out..like I have already done in some contracts. Why? because it was a boom and now the OLD faithful Housing Contracts, although NOT as glamorous as Solar PV, is running its course and as had its day in some scenarios due to Government rebates etc have been exhausted.
The analogy with herps is the same. A quick cash grab on the latest fad, doesn't make for a long term sustainable Business proposition and this relates to the new fads with herps. As much as I love the new "herp"scene it is awesome, we dont need to get our knickers in a knot as the balance will be adjusted.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (Oct 15, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Thats the reality NOW. But wont always will be.
> Now that we are talking on a Business perspective yeh, I will share something that I experience daily as an example and a "trend". I have a Business that was many years ago, 100% solely based on dept of Housing Maintenance Contracts. Now we have grown the Business and diversified in Solar PV installs both residential and in schools and other "CURRENT" niche markets throughout Australia. Since investing and leading in this new and "hip" market for the interim technologies, we have not forgotten our roots (Housing contracts)....there are so many Companies now tendering and flooding the market with the new and hip Solar PV market, that prices have dropped dramatically and will be at a point very soon where I will pull out..like I have already done in some contracts. Why? because it was a boom and now the OLD faithful Housing Contracts, although NOT as glamorous as Solar PV, is running its course and as had its day in some scenarios due to Government rebates etc have been exhausted.
> The analogy with herps is the same. A quick cash grab on the latest fad, doesn't make for a long term sustainable Business proposition and this relates to the new fads with herps. As much as I love the new "herp"scene it is awesome, we dont need to get our knickers in a knot as the balance will be adjusted.



This is gold! We have already started to move away from just breeding snakes! Its a slow and expensive process but we will get there eventually. Evolve or Die. It also helps that I hate my day job!!!!!!!


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## zuesowns (Oct 15, 2010)

I think years from now these Pure breed pythons will be more expensive than the jags/RPM crosses etc, just you wait  by then, a lot of people will have crosses and it will be hard to find the pure breeds!

Like MINI's were dirt cheep now they are collectable, antique and cost a bit.


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## mrkos (Oct 15, 2010)

The years of the full time reptile breeder are numbered. Remember one thing people when you own a pure local specific bred reptile you own a piece of this unique country! thats what sets keeping native herps a bar above owning common pets like dogs, cats etc. Not only do you own a piece of australia but you own a piece of our history.! how many designer dogs and cats lived here 2 or 300 years ago. I guess the point ime trying to make is snakes are special pets dont breed too many and they will remain special breed for the love of the animal not the money.


Poggle said:


> Finding some else to try and make money out of.
> 
> Years ago when i first got into reptiles. It was more about doing some thing you love, some thing you are passionate for.
> 
> Today it all seems about money.


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## ToadCountry (Oct 15, 2010)

Just put the "meat" back in this topic....fed my crew in between...... 
Waterrat - would like to add that this topic is not worth going fishing for.
There was a distinct northerly today. 
Tomorrow looks better.


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## Slateman (Oct 16, 2010)

Snake price is going down and Rats are more expensive. That cuts out the profit.
This is hard on full time breeders. I think that some of them will give up in near future. This will give more chance for small blokes to offload some of their hobby bred stocks.
Market always adjust it self.


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## Poggle (Oct 16, 2010)

I will be interesting to see. I do see prices lowering as an oppertunity for people to get in to some of the dearer snakes. So i can see both the positive and the negative. I guess we just have to go withthe times.

I will continue to do it cause i love it, and im sure most of you are the same.


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## cockney red (Oct 16, 2010)

mrkos said:


> The years of the full time reptile breeder are numbered. Remember one thing people when you own a pure local specific bred reptile you own a piece of this unique country! thats what sets keeping native herps a bar above owning common pets like dogs, cats etc. Not only do you own a piece of australia but you own a piece of our history.! how many designer dogs and cats lived here 2 or 300 years ago. I guess the point ime trying to make is snakes are special pets dont breed too many and they will remain special breed for the love of the animal not the money.


sums It up for me, mrKos


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## CodeRed (Oct 16, 2010)

Slateman said:


> Market always adjust it self.



That's what people seem to be forgetting. Prices go down, some people stop breeding and then the price stabilises at a value the market can support. For those who dont like it, get over it and move on, the gravy train has run out of steam


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## Snake_Whisperer (Oct 16, 2010)

Slateman said:


> Market always adjust it self.



Lol, Code Red, you got to this quote first but I have to agree. We can postulate 'til the cows come home but at the end of the day, this is what happens in all markets, especially niche markets. IMO, the present crash will indeed flush out the "quick buck makers" from the folks that are just genuine reptile lovers. In 5 or 10 years, I'm sure we will be discussing the ridiculously high prices on Wheatbelt Stimmies or Glasshouse Mountains Coastals, and the even higher prices on Granite Darwins and wondering why it's so hard to find a breeder to part with them.

If you enjoy herpetoculture, just hang on and enjoy the ride!


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## Waterrat (Oct 16, 2010)

Slateman said:


> Snake price is going down and Rats are more expensive.



This is going to create an interesting situation; you will be able to buy a nice snake say for $50.-, an enclosure with all the paraphernalia for $800.- (or more), rats for $X.-, you pay electricity, vet bills and whatever else. To me, it seems as a kind of up side down structure. I know a stamp collector who spent $300.- on a rare stamp and slot it into a $5.- stamp album.


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## Jay84 (Oct 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> This is going to create an interesting situation; you will be able to buy a nice snake say for $50.-, an enclosure with all the paraphernalia for $800.- (or more), rats for $X.-, you pay electricity, vet bills and whatever else. To me, it seems as a kind of up side down structure. I know a stamp collector who spent $300.- on a rare stamp and slot it into a $5.- stamp album.


 
Saying that though, you pay $6 for a pair of budgies...... pay $300 for a small aviary, seed has become very expensive.

Reptile industry is not the only one that has taken this trend.


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## pythons73 (Oct 16, 2010)

IMO to many people are just breeding everything they have pairs off..I love my reptiles and im not going to breed them if i have troubles selling them,Why cant people just keep repti;les for pets etc,im sick of hearing threads about,my snakes has eggs-what do i do..Dont get me wrong,its a awesome feeling knowing your husbandry is correct and the female lays her eggs,then seeing those tiny heads pop out..Then you have to get them feeding,more electricity costs etc...Too many people are breeding thinking there going to make a million,if so ur defiently in the wrong hobby....Some need to just appreciate there reptiles instead of breeding them..my 2 cents worth.....


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## Waterrat (Oct 16, 2010)

ntvnm said:


> deleted


 
What it has got to do with PRICES? Do your personal attacks through PM, if you have to.


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## Slateman (Oct 16, 2010)

To bread snake this days cost more and more for the big guys. Electricity, food , space , medication if needed, equipment and time to pay people to clean cages.

This cheap prices on the market must take some tall in long run, and some of the breading stations would reconsider if there is enough reward to stay in business.

On the other hand, hobby keepers will always stay in the game for simple reason. They are not involved in herps because of profit.


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## Waterrat (Oct 16, 2010)

You are quite right. However, most of the commercial breeders have a back up strategy in place - selling equipment, venom supplies, public exhibits, etc. I believe one of the major players is considering retirement. The herp scene is going to change, that's for sure.


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## Zoltag (Oct 16, 2010)

carpetpythongurl said:


> i have hearded of a guy that is sells his snakes and lizards on a contract that you wont breed them and if you do the animal and offspring return to him but if you want to breed then the price of the animal is doubled once sold on a 'pet' contact it is always that and can not be breed if the owner sells the animal they must get the new owner to sign the contract or they are still respopable for the animal not being breed and any cost occured in return of animal and offspring if it is. he also only offers the health, strong, no defect animals up for breeding


 
ROFL.

This type of contract would never stand up in a court of law.


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## Zoltag (Oct 16, 2010)

I dont see why so many people are against snakes being sold cheaply.

Most people that keep them list conservation as something that is at least important to them (and frequently list conservation as a reason to keep snakes in the first place). The lower prices get, the less incentive there is for poachers to pinch them from the wild.

What Waterrat says about breeders selling other things as "back up" strategies will actually be the determining factor as to which breeders will remain in business and which ones can no longer afford to make a primary income from it.


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## Camo (Oct 16, 2010)

Jay84 said:


> Cuban finches, star finches, longtail finches. I remember all of these being $40 a pair. Now they are $80 and above! Same with certain parrot species.


There are not to many parrots that have raised in price mate. Maybe Greys and a couple others. I bought my first pair of Violet lacewing ringnecks for close to $10k for the pair and now your lucky to get a 5th of that.


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## Camo (Oct 16, 2010)

Zoltag said:


> I dont see why so many people are against snakes being sold cheaply.


I only sold mine cheap so i could move them on to make more room for this seasons hatchies and if this season's are slow selling than i will take a break from the normal pythons next season as i dont really need the added work for $50 per snake.

The buyers deffinately dont have a problem with quality animals at a great price. I sold all my carpets in 2 days and recieved over 50 pm's regarding them. People are looking out for the bargain at the moment.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> If reptiles become worthless, i.e. very, very cheap, there won't be any available because most breeders would give up altogethr, some will scale their "hobby" down to a minimum that's not going to cost much to run and we will be swapping animals between us like we did 30 years ago. WHERE IS IT GOING TO LEAVE THE PRICE KNOCKERS and the undercutters?


 
When it gets to that point wouldn't they raise their prices to those selling the same product at a higher price? In the end doesn't it end with the people charging more being dragged down to the same level to get rid of their product before they are stuck with it? A majority will buy a cheaper product. Yes there will be a sector for the unique animals, but the bulk will buy the reptile that is cheapest for that breed.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> The real battle will start when GTPs will hit the $500.- mark. It will then be damn hard for someone to undercut others. A mate of mine who also breed natives (not Adrian) undercuts me every year by 500 bucks and he thinks he is winning. I wonder, will he sells his GTPs for $1.- if I advertise mine for 500? This may all be hypothetical but some people are just unable to think even two years ahead and they don't realise they're slowly cutting their own throats.
> Just some food for thought.


 
This only holds true if you sell all of your product. Because you know he wont have as much trouble getting rid of his at a cheaper price. Who dies out first? Woolworths selling stuff at a lower price or the family owned supermarket, charging a higher price?


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## Southside Morelia (Oct 16, 2010)

Southside Morelia said:


> Thats the reality NOW. But wont always will be.
> Now that we are talking on a Business perspective yeh, I will share something that I experience daily as an example and a "trend". I have a Business that was many years ago, 100% solely based on dept of Housing Maintenance Contracts. Now we have grown the Business and diversified in Solar PV installs both residential and in schools and other "CURRENT" niche markets throughout Australia. Since investing and leading in this new and "hip" market for the interim technologies, we have not forgotten our roots (Housing contracts)....there are so many Companies now tendering and flooding the market with the new and hip Solar PV market, that prices have dropped dramatically and will be at a point very soon where I will pull out..like I have already done in some contracts. Why? because it was a boom and now the OLD faithful Housing Contracts, although NOT as glamorous as Solar PV,* is still running its course AND has not had its day like in some industries like Solar PV, *due to Government rebates etc having been exhausted.
> The analogy with herps is the same. A quick cash grab on the latest fad, doesn't make for a long term sustainable Business proposition and this relates to the new fads with herps. As much as I love the new "herp"scene it is awesome, we dont need to get our knickers in a knot as the balance will be adjusted *eventually*.


 Geez, my apologies guys, i've gotta stop posting on a Friday afternoon after the Pub.....It made sense to an extent, but way off topic, what was i thinking....:lol: Amended in *RED.*


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## smigga (Oct 16, 2010)

I reckon that when the prices drop so much most big breeders will stop breeding because there will be no profit. When this happens the prices will raise again and all will be normal again
Just what i think
Brad


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

smigga said:


> I reckon that when the prices drop so much most big breeders will stop breeding because there will be no profit. When this happens the prices will raise again and all will be normal again
> Just what i think
> Brad


Not in our lifetime though i'd imagine. Average snake lifespan is what... 20ish years? And a few breeders who aren't in it for profit will be enough to keep new herpers satisfied.


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## D3pro (Oct 16, 2010)

It will turn out just like the fish market... a couple of goldfish for 3-4 dollars each, and the tank and equipment for $400. So bad for the private breeders but good for the retail shops. Just a thought, if reptiles get cheaper will the standards of looking after them drop too?


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## Waterrat (Oct 16, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> This only holds true if you sell all of your product. Because you know he wont have as much trouble getting rid of his at a cheaper price. Who dies out first?


 
My bet is - he will die first because he won't be able to sustain his "hobby" selling GTPs for $1.-, whilst if sell even just a few for $500.-, I will live. That is, I won't have to feed my hobby from other income - he would have to. 
Please, don't take this literally, this is not about him and me - it's a strictly hypothetical scenario.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> My bet is - he will die first because he won't be able to sustain his "hobby" selling GTPs for $1.-, whilst if sell even just a few for $500.-, I will live. That is, I won't have to feed my hobby from other income - he would have to.
> Please, don't take this literally, this is not about him and me - it's a strictly hypothetical scenario.


 
But who, hypothetically, would sell one for $1? I'm sure if they are selling for $400 they'll be doing fine while still taking a majority of business.


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 16, 2010)

this whole undercutting business happens across the board even in the building trade. In the long run the businesses who do quality work or provide a quality product will always outlast the ones that dont. People may sell their services or products super cheap but cant sustain it because they are losing money. Why go to all the trouble and expense of breeding animals when you dont make any money for it. It's just a real shame that there is always cowboys out there that work on the theory that the way to be competitive is to undercut and just make the difference up in shortcuts and dodgy cheaper methods instead of providing the best quality product and great service and having the customer choose you for that.


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## Wally (Oct 16, 2010)

I agree. If your product is good and you have a solid reputation people will always come back to you, regardless of what others are doing.


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## spongebob (Oct 16, 2010)

Reptile breeding for most is a hobby. Why is this linked to $$$$ as per this thread?

Yes I sell herps, yes I give them a $$$$ value, but that's only to buy others herps or pay for the food...if the market value comes down or goes up it makes no differnece to me and maintaining my hobby.

Personally I'd prefer the NZ system whereby there's no buying or selling of native herps allowed -only swappies. Gets rid of those with $$$ signs in their eyes like the characters found in Disney cartoons.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> this whole undercutting business happens across the board even in the building trade. In the long run the businesses who do quality work or provide a quality product will always outlast the ones that dont. People may sell their services or products super cheap but cant sustain it because they are losing money. Why go to all the trouble and expense of breeding animals when you dont make any money for it. It's just a real shame that there is always cowboys out there that work on the theory that the way to be competitive is to undercut and just make the difference up in shortcuts and dodgy cheaper methods instead of providing the best quality product and great service and having the customer choose you for that.


 
$400 per snake is far from being a loss. And how are cheaper pythons of lesser quality? Cheaper doesn't mean worse. Unless its a unique animal they are all reasonably similar. I'm sure they aren't selling unhealthy pythons, that isn't in their best interests. If I put 2 almost identical specimens in front of you, and one was $400 and one was $500 which would you choose?


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 16, 2010)

i would choose the $500 one if it came from a more reliable source...


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Just_Plain_Nuts said:


> i would choose the $500 one if it came from a more reliable source...


 
Cant be too unreliable if they breed and successfully sell hundreds of pythons per year?


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## zan777 (Oct 16, 2010)

spongebob said:


> Reptile breeding for most is a hobby. Why is this linked to $$$$ as per this thread?
> Personally I'd prefer the NZ system whereby there's no buying or selling of native herps allowed -only swappies. Gets rid of those with $$$ signs in their eyes like the characters found in Disney cartoons.



Sound good in principle, but i dont think they would have the diverse amount of herps we do. eg il trade you 50 bearded dragons for your GTP... It just wouldnt work.


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## Wally (Oct 16, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Cant be too unreliable if they breed and successfully sell hundreds of pythons per year?



I think you need to set the parameters more definitively in your hypothetical argument.


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## Teamsherman (Oct 16, 2010)

10 x pinkies @ $13.50. 15 hatchies will eat approx. 6 before sold off yeah? 

So thats $1.35 x 6 for one hatchie equaling $8.10 per hatchie before selling. Sell that hatchie (we'll use coastals for example) at $75 (give or take a bit)

$8.10 x 15 hatchies = $121

All 15 hatchies sell at $75 so thats $1125. Minus the price of the pinkies @ $121 and you have a total of $1004. 

Incubation electricity and hatchie tub heat mat electricity costs would be about $250 a quarter im guessing? 

It would take about 3-6 weeks to get the hatchies to eat their 6 pinkies. 

Advertising would cost nothing, as its done on here or other herp sites that are allowed to have herps sold, or about $15 from memory to advertise elsewhere. 

Profit minus electricity would come down to about $754 dollars. Then minus the $15 for advertising elsewhere. So you are looking in this hypothetical example a overall profit of $739. 

So thats not bad if you ask me. 

Give or take a few extra feeds here whilst sellers are waiting for potiential customers to pay up and to me that looks like a pretty good outlay for a clutch of run of the mill coastals. 

And you cant tell me it would be much different for most other breeds? 

If you want to add in hatchie tubs and heat mat costs ect, then that would change dramatically for a breeders first clutch, but after that when the tubs are used for future clutches they would have paid for themselves and your profits would only go up. 

Have i missed something in my analogy? 

So you cant honestly tell me that its a financial strain on you when you can sell off 15 hatchies a couple of times a year?? 

Well, thats how i see it anyway. 

Cheers,

Sherm.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Teamsherman said:


> 10 x pinkies @ $13.50. 15 hatchies will eat approx. 6 before sold off yeah?
> 
> So thats $1.35 x 6 for one hatchie equaling $8.10 per hatchie before selling. Sell that hatchie (we'll use coastals for example) at $75 (give or take a bit)
> 
> ...


 
You da man .


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Wally76 said:


> I think you need to set the parameters more definitively in your hypothetical argument.


 
Waterrats hypothetical argument. Which I assumed was an adaption of URS vs everybody. URS puts out hundreds of reptiles.


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## Mayo (Oct 16, 2010)

Well said sherman 100% agree, rare things will hold a greater value but eventually everything will come down in price. Simple supply and demand.

And there is a base value to everything the costs incurred to raise it for sale, change only slightly for different reptiles.


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## Wally (Oct 16, 2010)

Teamsherman you confirm my belief that parameters cannot be set in this particular argument.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Wally76 said:


> Teamsherman you confirm my belief that parameters cannot be set in this particular argument.


 
Offer your estimate? We will average them and I'd imagine there will still be a solid profit.


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## Wally (Oct 16, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Waterrats hypothetical argument. Which I assumed was an adaption of URS vs everybody. URS puts out hundreds of reptiles.


 
Assumption is the mother of all *@#%ups.


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## ihaveherps (Oct 16, 2010)

For the people stuck on the business side of it all, why are you starting your calculations at the hatchies..... the model you are using is hyper simplified..... 

I think everyone is missing the point.... its not so much about the values, more-so about the need for a sustainable herp economy.


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## Wally (Oct 16, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Offer your estimate? We will average them and I'd imagine there will still be a solid profit.


 
You and the rest who have taken this tack should come to the conclusion of one thing, stop concerning yourselves with what others are doing. What I sell reptiles for has nothing to do with you. If you don't like the price I sell things for, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.


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## Wookie (Oct 16, 2010)

Wally76 said:


> You and the rest who have taken this tack should come to the conclusion of one thing, stop concerning yourselves with what others are doing. What I sell reptiles for has nothing to do with you. If you don't like the price I sell things for, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.



Unless you're cheaper i will . You made it personal, didn't have anything to do with what you sell your reptiles for... Was never about attacking higher priced sellers (not saying this is you). Simply arguing that selling a snake cheaper doesn't mean selling at a loss.


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## Wally (Oct 16, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Unless you're cheaper i will . You made it personal, didn't have anything to do with what you sell your reptiles for... Was never about attacking higher priced sellers (not saying this is you). Simply arguing that selling a snake cheaper doesn't mean selling at a loss.


 
Have you ever bred a reptile?


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## Wally (Oct 17, 2010)

dst1980 said:


> Whats going on with python prices? BHP's $300, Coastals $50, Stripped Coastals $80! Not even 12 months ago these prices were unheard of. Are we really getting to the stage of over breeding, as much as this industry is growing the supply and demand must be getting out of hand. This is great for the buyers, but a nightmare for those who spent there hard earned cash on expensive breeders only to have the prices drop and now worth less than the average power bill. I love the fact thre's so much on the market, but only hope it dosn't get to the stage of dogs and cats where shelters would be needed to look after the unsaleable and unwanted of spring. Do we all need to take a few steps back?



I think to get back to the original question what we are seeing is people clearing their racks for this years stock. Be happy, clearance sale now on.


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## Teamsherman (Oct 17, 2010)

ihaveherps said:


> For the people stuck on the business side of it all, why are you starting your calculations at the hatchies..... the model you are using is hyper simplified.....
> 
> I think everyone is missing the point.... its not so much about the values, more-so about the need for a sustainable herp economy.



Sustainable herp economy or sustainable herp population? 

Dollar signs much? 

I thought all herp breeders were always in it to sustain the herp populations before our cars, cats, infrastructure and so on make them rarer in the wild than hens teeth. But in saying that, it wouldnt matter if we bred millions in captivity, they would never be allowed to be released into the wild anyway.

This next statement is not aimed at you Ihaveherps, just my feeling towards the current trends. 

"If you are breeding reptiles, you are doing it at first for the joy of helping to produce life and the test upon ones ability to keep a species well enough that it feels comfortable to breed, after that, its for the money." Teamsherman 17 Oct 10!! LOL


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Waterrats hypothetical argument. Which I assumed was an adaption of URS vs everybody. URS puts out hundreds of reptiles.


 
WRONG! Don't assume! You are well off the track mate and I (_The Green Effect_) nor Tim (_URS_) appreciate your assumption. Read my posts again and it may become clear that I was aiming my hypothetical situation at my mate who undercuts me by $500.- every year.
This makes me really angry. Your assumption contributes nothing to this thread but may cause rifts between people who respect each other.
Go away!


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## Slateman (Oct 17, 2010)

Guys if you don't calm down and if you continue to be personal in your posts. I will close this topic.
You can talk about this topic with out insults and pointing fingers at other members here.

I am angry old man and if I can control my self, so can you.


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2010)

Slatey, I take your point but who is here to control the people who (as in this instance) through their "assumptions" stir up trouble between two people and cause embarrassment? Should I just take it on the chin?

cheers
calm and well-controlled Michael


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## cactus2u (Oct 17, 2010)

Slateman said:


> Guys if you don't calm down and if you continue to be personal in your posts. I will close this topic.
> You can talk about this topic with out insults and pointing fingers at other members here.
> 
> I am angry old man and if I can control my self, so can you.



Had to laugh..... yeah we are all meant to be grown up & be able to handle debates/conflicts without resorting to some youthful behaviour even if the subject is close to our heart 
I myself have not long ago bought a adult Olive pair with hope of experiencing the expected joy of hatching a clutch so I can keep one myself.Will most probably be a one off effort maybe biannually if I shout myself one of those beautiful albino olives.
But by the time I can convince wifey to allow that sort of outlay the price issue will most likely be a figuring factor


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## Laghairt (Oct 17, 2010)

Threads about price never end well, too many opinions and vested interest.


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## Wookie (Oct 17, 2010)

Waterrat, I formally apologise for my assumption. I assure you, and all other included parties, that no malicious intent was involved in that post.


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## Waterrat (Oct 17, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Waterrat, I formally apologise for my assumption. I assure you, and all other included parties, that no malicious intent was involved in that post.


 
Thank you and I believe you. I am sure we sort it out with Tim.

cheers


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 17, 2010)

This type of discussion will go round and round in circles. I have copped a bit of a ribbing for selling "expensive" elapids over the last few years. I sold a bucket load of Eastern Brown hatchlings for $150 each, Tiger Snake neonates for $200 each, and the year before I sold juvenile Red Bellies for $300 each. I had no trouble moving them. I sold Death Adders to a wildlife park in Sydney for significantly more than what they would sell for in the open market, and I sold Speckled Browns to a private keeper for $2000 for a 30cm pair. Why? Because I can. If people are willing to pay it, I am willing to accept it. On the f.l.i.p.side, I am more than happy to pay above the market rate for animals that I desire. I paid over $2000 for a pair of Inland Taipans recently...but when a friend offered me three yearling Carpets for a carton of rum last week, I declined...he ended up giving them to me for free, but that's not the point. 

At the end of the day, the buyers dictate the price. If something is too expensive, they won't buy it, and if it's the right price or less, they will. This will continue on regardless of what an individuals personal opinion is, and regardless of what the actual costs of producing reptiles are. Anybody who has bred and sold a reptile is guilty of this, not that there is anything to be "guilty" about.


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## cement (Oct 17, 2010)

Yes there seems to be a real stigma with selling herps. If you breed and sell your a dollar grabber, but if your a well respected breeder and seller its ok:shock:. Its funny and makes me laugh when i read things about who is "in it for the money" as if thats a bad thing.
What WILL happen, without a doubt, with this hobby/industry, (and listen carefully because i have this straight from the "in the know" guy who never gets a prediction wrong) will simply happen...:lol:

Hey, do the dudes who call others money hungry do any work with wild reptiles, voluntarily?
Because if we all love our reptiles so much why isn't there more people from this site getting involved with wild herp care and rehab?

Bummer my albinos didn't go this year... especially after I named the female " money maker"!!!


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## kkjkdt1 (Oct 17, 2010)

Why? Because I can. If people are willing to pay it, I am willing to accept it.
Anybody who has bred and sold a reptile is guilty of this, not that there is anything to be "guilty" about.[/QUOTE]

Best post yet on this topic


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## gsnake (Oct 17, 2010)

*what's it realy worth*

Hi Guys First Time in. The joy of breeding snakes is one of the best feelings iv ever had, apart from the birth of my children. Then to sell a Juvi to a girl who is Handicapped & a young feller Who Was suicidal & to see their faces Was priceless. At a cheaper price their parents can afford. Who cares about money . Its a hobby for me. The look on their faces, well it still brings a tear to my eye. Thank you. Regards gsnake


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## FAY (Oct 17, 2010)

cement said:


> Its funny and makes me laugh when i read things about who is "in it for the money" as if thats a bad thing.



I just love those people who make a point of saying " I am in it for the hobby, not the money' and continually say it.
Always trying to convince everyone


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## cactus2u (Oct 17, 2010)

cement said:


> Y
> What WILL happen, without a doubt, with this hobby/industry, (and listen carefully because i have this straight from the "in the know" guy who never gets a prediction wrong) will simply happen...:lol::


 
So what was the prediction?? you seamed to have left it out of your comment


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## shellfisch (Oct 18, 2010)

cactus2u said:


> So what was the prediction?? you seamed to have left it out of your comment






cement said:


> What WILL happen, will simply happen...:lol:



That is the prediction....:lol:


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## zuesowns (Oct 18, 2010)

FAY said:


> I just love those people who make a point of saying " I am in it for the hobby, not the money' and continually say it.
> Always trying to convince everyone


 
Can you be in it for the hobby and the money?

What about people that don't mass breed and have 1 or 2 pairs of snakes to breed and sell hatchies?

Obviously they are in it for the hobby as they have only 1 or 2 pairs of snakes to breed and sell offspring, that said - they won't sell it under market price

What does that make them?


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## PilbaraPythons (Oct 18, 2010)

For those who think that making a sole living from breeding reptiles alone is easy, in my experience it is far from it. My initial involvement with reptiles many years ago was always a labor of passion and the monetary element hardly entered my head and indeed I spent ridiculous amounts of money traveling long and far many times doing what at sometimes wasn't legal but never for money and always giving away additional reptiles to friends who enjoyed them.
Six years ago I decided it would be a great if I could turn my hobby into an income to survive on and can honestly say that I have since struggled to do so with only one year making what would be considered a handy profit but which I now owe a crazy tax bill for. Every year since, I am lucky if I break even. 
Having said this, my own circumstances are a little different than most i.e the Pilbara area is an extremely expensive place to live and additionally to say I am an ordinary businessman is an understatement.
These days reality has forced me back into manual labor to make ends meet and I no longer view my reptile indulgence as being much more than a large scale hobby that struggles to break even.
The ironic thing about this view is I am once again starting to enjoy it.


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 18, 2010)

It's a lesson that, for whatever reason, I learned when I was young, and feel lucky to have done so. When you have a passion for something (for me, reptiles, dogs, horses, photography, development work), you have a choice to make. Do you choose to keep your passion as a hobby, enjoy it to the max, but don't expect to make any money or change the world - just be happy with your own efforts and the self-satisfaction of what you can achieve on your own. 

Or, you can choose to make your passion a career. There is often hard work and many years of little to no money, frustrations, pressure on other areas of your life, and more than likely, the thing that you originally had a passion for will become as much as chore as anything else, even if it's a chore you still enjoy. 

Neither option is right or wrong - there's just the decision you make. I made the choice to keep photography purely as a hobby, as well as the dogs and horses. Having gone and come back to Vietnam, I will probably make the same decision about development work, keeping my efforts to short-term, highly focused projects rather than working within the bureaucracy of the larger organisations. The reptiles, I'd like to try simply to break even, if possible, but I'm going to damn well enjoy myself in the meantime  

So, what will I do for _real_ work? Ummmmm......


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## D3pro (Oct 18, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Or, you can choose to make your passion a career. There is often hard work and many years of little to no money, frustrations, pressure on other areas of your life, and more than likely, the thing that you originally had a passion for will become as much as chore as anything else, even if it's a chore you still enjoy.



I agree 100%, with me trying make my passion of art into a career I struggled for a long time trying to figure out how. Then I got into digital mediums and started working with graphic design and even then it wasn't easy. I spent 2 years working for almost free and building my contacts, now I easily put food on the table and pay my bills. 

But working with web and graphic design works because there is a huge market for it. 
If I was to try to turn snakes into my main source of income I could only imagine the many years of hard work with no profit I would have too put in. Right now I enjoy snakes purely as a hobby, yes money goes in and doesn't come back.... but that's just what hobbies are. 

No one complains not being able to make money off their fishing hobby, or because their efforts in bike riding isn't landing them in the big time. 
Enjoy your reptiles and have fun.... and don't quit you day job LMAO


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## Pythoninfinite (Oct 18, 2010)

Nothing turns a much loved hobby into a nightmare than turning it into a business. You move from the driver's seat while it's a hobby (you choose where and when you go...), to the passenger's seat when it's a business - and you have no choice where you are going... or when. As a business, external factors pretty much dictate everything you do with your animals, and this often leaves very little scope for self indulgence.

It's OK, and may be successful if the primary reason for being involved with reptiles is money in the first place, but I don't think that's why most of us are here... certainly not me...

Jamie.


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## mysnakesau (Oct 18, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Nothing turns a much loved hobby into a nightmare than turning it into a business. .......



Speaking from experience that is so true. I opened up a pet shop for the love of the animals and soon realised that if profit isn't the number one priority for a business it will go downhill very quickly. And indeed mine did. I spent way too much money trying to give the animals in my shop the best, that other areas of the business suffered to a point of closure and no return. Today, I have no regrets how I treated my animals - I know pet shops cop a caning on animal forums - but I am still paying for it.


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## Serpentes (Oct 18, 2010)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Nothing turns a much loved hobby into a nightmare than turning it into a business. You move from the driver's seat while it's a hobby (you choose where and when you go...), to the passenger's seat when it's a business - and you have no choice where you are going... or when. As a business, external factors pretty much dictate everything you do with your animals, and this often leaves very little scope for self indulgence.
> 
> It's OK, and may be successful if the primary reason for being involved with reptiles is money in the first place, but I don't think that's why most of us are here... certainly not me...
> 
> Jamie.


 
Very well said, Jamie. I am involved in another hobby, and it could be lucrative, but what a chore it would become! Then again, being involved in Herps in a "sciencey" field does not see me driving a Maserati, nor any other vehicle other than a bicycle, to be honest. But I sleep well.


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## wokka (Oct 18, 2010)

If you treat it as a hobby you wont be dissappointed. Treat it as a business failure is likely!


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## Just_Plain_Nuts (Oct 18, 2010)

Kristy_07 said:


> Or, you can choose to make your passion a career. There is often hard work and many years of little to no money, frustrations, pressure on other areas of your life, and more than likely, the thing that you originally had a passion for will become as much as chore as anything else, even if it's a chore you still enjoy.


 This is where i lie, but i still enjoy the challenges each enclosure brings up...


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## ozziepythons (Oct 18, 2010)

"If you turn your hobby into your work, you'll never work another day in your life". In the reptile keeping and breeding industry, it is the fortunate few whom have found this to be a success.


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## mungus (Oct 20, 2010)

I am angry old man and if I can control my self, so can you.[/QUOTE]

Slately..............Are we twins ?


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## mysnakesau (Oct 20, 2010)

You? Angry? Hahaha. You can talk under water with a mouth full of marbles but I've never seen or heard you get angry at anyone


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## Nagraj (Oct 20, 2010)

Mostly, I find the outspoken, self justifying, high end breeders too difficult to deal with and I know that I'll be able to get equal quality animals from the same lines a little down the track with far less complication and at a lower price .

It doesn't really matter if you say you have JoeBlake's Speckled Stallion line, if you aren't JoeBlake you have to expect to get less for the line because (a) you didn't get the best of them anyway, he kept them for himself (b) He also sold them to sixteen other breeders and they've released progeny at the same time as you.


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## CodeRed (Oct 21, 2010)

Nagraj said:


> It doesn't really matter if you say you have JoeBlake's Speckled Stallion line, if you aren't JoeBlake you have to expect to get less for the line because (a) you didn't get the best of them anyway, he kept them for himself (b) He also sold them to sixteen other breeders and they've released progeny at the same time as you.



shh, you'll give away all the secrets


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## Perko (Oct 21, 2010)

I haven't read all of the 16 pages of cra p, but people in general are becoming tight [email protected]#% not just in reptiles.


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## vitticep (Oct 21, 2010)

How can someone complain about price speculators and undercutters, when they sell an animal for $8k one year and then $3k the next season? Did the quality of his animals/service lower by that much? Maybe if we can have this explained it would help us to understand the market better as far as future pricing goes.
A mate bought a yearling albino darwin pair for $13k last year - ask him about price speculations.


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## Waterrat (Oct 21, 2010)

I think the explanation is very simple. Anyone marketing GTP hatchlings for 8K is not going to sell any, every breeder has to follow the market, it's that simple. There was no jump from 8K to 3K the next season, the decline in price was gradual over the last 4 years. Just in case vitticeps is referring to me, I am selling *YEARLINGS* (sexed, coloured, well-established) for 3K, not hatchlings. The quality and service didn't lower that much, in fact in improved year by year.

Cheers
M


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## pythons73 (Oct 21, 2010)

When it comes to Chondros the price has come down in price compared to last year,and the year before..But it has gratually,it hasnt plummeted as suggested..Hatchies were $4500 a couple seasons,ow there around $1800.same applies to Albino Darwins..so buying sexed yealings for $3000 is a great price..I for one want another 2 however ive gotta buy 2 hatchies and hope i get a pair,or pay that little extra to quarantee in gettin a sexed pair..I no which i prefer...Also if Chondros were on a class 1 then alot more would be sold..my 2 cents worth...


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## mungus (Oct 21, 2010)

CraigP said:


> I haven't read all of the 16 pages of cra p, but people in general are becoming tight [email protected]#% not just in reptiles.



I'm a tight ****.................is that 3K a pair Mick ?


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## Waterrat (Oct 21, 2010)

mungus said:


> I'm a tight ****.................is that 3K a pair Mick ?



:lol::lol::lol: you are a tight ****


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## mungus (Oct 21, 2010)

I know..........:lol::lol:


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## Defective (Oct 21, 2010)

well i know a queensland coastal python breeder so when i get a snake im going to him. its the brother of a close friend


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## D3pro (Oct 21, 2010)

lol that was random lambert


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## -Peter (Oct 21, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I think the explanation is very simple. Anyone marketing GTP hatchlings for 8K is not going to sell any, every breeder has to follow the market, it's that simple. There was no jump from 8K to 3K the next season, the decline in price was gradual over the last 4 years. Just in case vitticeps is referring to me, I am selling *YEARLINGS* (sexed, coloured, well-established) for 3K, not hatchlings. The quality and service didn't lower that much, in fact in improved year by year.
> 
> Cheers
> M





pythons73 said:


> When it comes to Chondros the price has come down in price compared to last year,and the year before..But it has gratually,it hasnt plummeted as suggested..Hatchies were $4500 a couple seasons,ow there around $1800.same applies to Albino Darwins..so buying sexed yealings for $3000 is a great price..I for one want another 2 however ive gotta buy 2 hatchies and hope i get a pair,or pay that little extra to quarantee in gettin a sexed pair..I no which i prefer...Also if Chondros were on a class 1 then alot more would be sold..my 2 cents worth...


 
It wasn't that long ago when hatchlings were being sold for $10k each. There was no shortage of buyers. 
Fortunately Aussie breeders were able to overcome the breeding problems that plagued Aussie GTP's. In such a short space of time too.


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## Waterrat (Oct 21, 2010)

-Peter said:


> It wasn't that long ago when hatchlings were being sold for $10k each. There was no shortage of buyers.
> Fortunately Aussie breeders were able to overcome the breeding problems that plagued Aussie GTP's. In such a short space of time too.



Peter, time runs fast, the last hatchlings that went for 10K were sold in 2005, unfortunately, none of mine . In 2007 they were 8K then the price went down quickly because of the import and in the last 2 years the prices have been dropping gradually.


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## Slateman (Oct 21, 2010)

I think that one snake is holding price well. Black headed python sells still for reasonable price. Maybe this have something to do with small clutches and pain to start them eat.
But must say they are so attractive to have in collection.


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## GeckoJosh (Oct 21, 2010)

Slateman said:


> I think that one snake is holding price well. Black headed python sells still for reasonable price. Maybe this have something to do with small clutches and pain to start them eat.
> But must say they are so attractive to have in collection.


 *20 people start trolling adds for breeding pairs*


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## Waterrat (Oct 21, 2010)

Geckoman said:


> *20 people start trolling adds for breeding pairs*



What a breeding pair (native GTPs) be worth today? I mean what would people be prepared to pay for it. I haven't seen any on the market for a long time.


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## LiasisKing (Oct 21, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> What a breeding pair (native GTPs) be worth today? I mean what would people be prepared to pay for it. I haven't seen any on the market for a long time.


 
i'll give you $200 for them 

EDIT :
i genuinely have no idea, i have seen adults sell within a fortnight for 6000 ... but i dont know if that is cheap or expensive


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## Waterrat (Oct 21, 2010)

LiasisKing said:


> i'll give you $200 for them
> 
> EDIT :
> i genuinely have no idea, i have seen adults sell within a fortnight for 6000 ... but i dont know if that is cheap or expensive


 
Thanks for the generous offer, if I had a pair I would be emailing you my account number now . 
I am not selling any, I am just interested to know what the masses think.


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## Kristy_07 (Oct 21, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> What a breeding pair (native GTPs) be worth today? I mean what would people be prepared to pay for it. I haven't seen any on the market for a long time.


 
Michael, I'm sure I saw a breeding pair recently for $12K. Around 2.5 years, I think, but hard to remember, and I'm not certain if they were natives... sorry if that's of no real help!


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## Waterrat (Oct 21, 2010)

Yah, I have seen it too but so far, all the so called breeding pairs were "yet to breed". That poses two questions: 1/ why would anyone be selling a pair that will breed soon and 2/ just because it's a male and a female doesn't mean they're going to reproduce and it doesn't mean they going to reproduce next season. I have seen ads posted just before the mating season, a bit unusual I thought. By the way, females breed at 3.5 years (there may be exceptions). Was the 12K pair native?
I am not testing the water, otherwise I would be putting forward question 1. I am just interested what people would be prepared to pay for a proven breeding pair of natives.


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## -Peter (Oct 22, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Peter, time runs fast, the last hatchlings that went for 10K were sold in 2005, unfortunately, none of mine . In 2007 they were 8K then the price went down quickly because of the import and in the last 2 years the prices have been dropping gradually.


 
Yeah, quite aware of that. Its just that people make comments that seem to deny history. Fact was a lot of people parted with the asking $10k. 
I am interested by your "after the import" comment. Are you implying that there was an importation of GTPs.:|


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## Waterrat (Oct 22, 2010)

Where have you been Peter? 
I really don't want to go into that again, last time it came up it let to disagreements, fights and comments from those thriving on assumptions. Someone else can enlighten you on that issue.


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## ozziepythons (Oct 22, 2010)

-Peter said:


> I am interested by your "after the import" comment. Are you implying that there was an importation of GTPs.:|


 
Yes smuggling happens. Thats why we have such things as Sorong locale GTPs and jag carpet pythons, not to mention exotic diseases. 
As for prices, purist keepers like myself will still pay top dollar for locale specimens (like native GTPs) rather that cheap as chips priced specimens who have either no background history, or a misleading or mixed bloodline background.


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## spongebob (Oct 22, 2010)

My first experience of buying GTP was at the Dutch Snake Societies meeting in around 1985. A mate bought a single specimen from a guy with a few in a suitcase for 400 quid and then had to bring it back to the UK. Sounds like things have not changed a lot even though I've flipped from one side of the globe to another and added a few pounds and grey hairs in the intervening years.


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## -Peter (Oct 23, 2010)

ozziepythons said:


> Yes smuggling happens. Thats why we have such things as Sorong locale GTPs and jag carpet pythons, not to mention exotic diseases.
> As for prices, purist keepers like myself will still pay top dollar for locale specimens (like native GTPs) rather that cheap as chips priced specimens who have either no background history, or a misleading or mixed bloodline background.


 
I assumed from Waterrats comment that there was some hard evidence not the continueing innuendo.


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## Laghairt (Oct 23, 2010)

LOL, there is hard evidence mate, most of us here have seen it.


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## Slateman (Oct 23, 2010)

I will be selling breeding pair my self soon. And reason for this is simple. I am having less time lately and there are new pairs of more interesting snakes I have in plane to put together instead. There is no way I can keep it all. maybe this is the reason for some other people to sell breeding pairs. If they are sold with photo documentation (picture of female laying eggs) I think that should be reasonable proof that pair is well established breeding unit.


Waterrat said:


> Yah, I have seen it too but so far, all the so called breeding pairs were "yet to breed". That poses two questions: 1/ why would anyone be selling a pair that will breed soon and 2/ just because it's a male and a female doesn't mean they're going to reproduce and it doesn't mean they going to reproduce next season. I have seen ads posted just before the mating season, a bit unusual I thought. By the way, females breed at 3.5 years (there may be exceptions). Was the 12K pair native?
> I am not testing the water, otherwise I would be putting forward question 1. I am just interested what people would be prepared to pay for a proven breeding pair of natives.


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## -Peter (Oct 23, 2010)

anouc said:


> LOL, there is hard evidence mate, most of us here have seen it.


 
Right, "MATE", so you haven't got any either. I have all the stories. I just thought that maybe there was a bit more here than a bunch of interenet blowhards and gossip mongers who like to pretend they have their finger on the pulse.
Keyboard ninjas strike again.


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## Jonno from ERD (Oct 23, 2010)

G'day Peter,

There was definitely some mass imports of Green Pythons. I didn't see them land in Australia, but I did help cut skinworms out of one, and had them offered to me in lots of 10 at $15,000 a hit for young adults.


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## syeph8 (Oct 23, 2010)

My oppinion of this is, that it is a hobby. Yes it costs time and money to get diffuclt feeders going and time and money to get pairs breeding, as well as all the research beforehand. Having said that, if you love what you do, then the time point is moot and if you dont have enough money to support your hatchies and get them feeding then dont breed. 

There are a lot of people referring to the herping "business" which as stated by others would be more profitable in the long run with accessories rather than the livestock. IMO there is nothing wrong with hobbyists selling any snake they want (providing it is within the parameters of the law, obviously) for however high or low they want and the people who consider breeding to be a business can either ignore or respond to the prices set by the hobbyists. Theres nothing wrong with trying to make money out of your hobby, but the point is starting to get lost that this is a hobby that most do for enjoyment and if you do breed, not only do you have the excitement of trying to develop an interesting line and being a part of the breeding process of your favourite animals, you at least cover some of the costs for your hobby, which compared to some other hobbies is a lot cheaper. 

As stated previously also, price drops open the door for many future hobbyists who like the look of, lets say, GTP's (as somehow these conversations always seem to have more of a GTP focus) but consider $1000 - 4000 too much of an investment in their first snake. This helps work towards what i consider to be the ultimate goal of preservation, raising awareness and tolerance and working towards the "only good snake is a dead snake" ethos being dispelled.

just an add on.. the expansion of the hobby will obviously increase demand, as we all know its hard to stop at one. and there will always be more expensive breeds/morphs that some of these people will then possibly aspire to. and the cycle continues...


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## dani_boy (Oct 23, 2010)

whats a good price for jungles these days???


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## Teamsherman (Oct 24, 2010)

dani_boy said:


> whats a good price for jungles these days???



Whatever you are happy to pay for them.


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## stockhorse (Oct 24, 2010)

As far as prices.There is a fellow in my area selling jungle cross coastals for $1200 to unsuspecting newbs.Tells them not to let people know as they are rare and really worth more but he has more incubating so must move some on.
What are established breeders etc doing wrong if this rogue can do this?


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## Laghairt (Oct 24, 2010)

Being honest? If someone is willing to part with that much money without knowing what they're paying for then they have more money than brains.


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## Jungle_Freak (Oct 24, 2010)

Stockhorse Quote 
There is a fellow in my area selling jungle cross coastals for $1200 to unsuspecting newbs
End quote 


Maybe this rogue is selling jungle x coastal RPM/jags


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## Addam (Oct 24, 2010)

i study Economics at school, and i often use the current state of the herp market as an example,when we are discussing supply and demand side theories. Too many people have come into the breeding market, and now supply outweighs demand, hence why rat prices have gone up.... for an economics student and herp enthusiast its a very interesting time indeed


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## stockhorse (Oct 24, 2010)

Jungle_Freak, a fair point,but having seen them they are very ordinary.I also agree more money than brains.I wonder where he gets his supply of buyers and how he gets them that the genuine guys with quality herps seem to be missing.


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## Tikanderoga (Oct 26, 2010)

stockhorse said:


> There is a fellow in my area selling jungle cross coastals for $1200 to unsuspecting newbs.


There are many factors in this: 
1. unsuspecting newbs - they should do their research first and start with a beginner snake. 
2. for $1200 - As jungle_freak said - they might be some special breed (jungle x coastal RPM/jags) 
3. There is no point in starting off into a new hobby with no idea of what one gets at a high price (justified or not) when said person doesn't know if that's the right hobby.

It's like giving a beginner driver a massive car (say a hummer) to drive. He might be fine with it, but the chances that he'll crash it or doesn't know how to deal with it are quite high.


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## beatlloydy (Oct 28, 2010)

As far as Herps go I am new to the game (only 1 year experience). I am willing to pay what the market dictates for a species I desire...if it is too expensive I wont pay for it and will either wait or not have that species.

I want to experience the pleasure and excitement of breeding but am willing to wait (I could have rushed out and bought a breeding pair). I know I am too late into the market of herps to make money out of it like I have heard some do...am I jealous?...not really...that is the way a lot of business' work out...the early bird gets the worm.

As a lot of people have alluded to..the market will probably correct itself and some stability may appear. However, I dont see anything wrong with, say if I breed standard stimsons or darwins in 1 to 2 years time and the market is having trouble selling them at $100 ...in me selling them for $50 or so. At least I get to experience the trials and tribulations of breeding and it is something me and my children can gain experience and enrichment from...it is not always about the money.

Contrary to a lot of peoples opinions...I never do anything for the money...its not that I am rich (far from it)...but I do things for the sake of what I like...i.e... I like to collect guitars and signed memorabillia related to music...it probably wont make me rich but I enjoy looking at it (and playing the various guitars albeit badly) and it is another interest/hobby of mine...I could have invested that money in stocks etc but all that gives me is a piece of paper which is quite boring to look at. As the good old Captain Goodvibes said "I may not know art...but I know what I like".

This analogy can even be applied to Herps. I choose the snakes I like based on availability and cost. I happen to like the Albino Darwins and blue phase GTP's...I just cant justify to either myself or my wife at this point in time the cost of them...I dont believe they are too expensive ..the current cost is what the market is and thats life.
Perhaps next year ...or the one after that.

What I dont like seeing is the constant upgrading by people....seeing reps as a commodity rather than a pet or an animal (I come from the old school regime where a pet is for life)...just my 2 cents worth.


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## Waterrat (Oct 29, 2010)

Beatlloydy, you have put it very nicely, that's how things should be. I think some stability will appear as a result of the fact that many "breeders for money" will drop out of the game once their efforts become unprofitable. Your example of selling stimsons or darwins for $50.- (if that's all you get) is applicable in your situation or anyone's with a pair or two but there are many breeders working with large collections, producing or aiming to produce different morphs, at least that's the direction I see the hobby heading.

Let me give you an example (of course native GTPs); to select for a strong vertebral line, you can't just start with one or two juveniles, you need more than that if you want to see some pleasing results in your lifetime. They breed at 3.5 years and then you have to wait another year to see what the babies (yearlings by then) turn out like, select individuals with the best potential and wait another 4.5 years to assess the next generation. I am talking about project that will take a decade or more, while you're maintaining a fairly large collection of mainly juveniles which are pain in the ..... to feed plus the adults and yearlings. Your returns come from selling off the undesirable adults and yearlings that don't show any potential for improvement of that trait. 
After you factor in your initial investments; the original snakes, enclosures and accessories, incubators, rearing tubs plus the ongoing costs such as electricity, food, vet bills and incidentals you will arrive at certain figure (whatever it may be). Call it hobby, love, passion, whatever, your time invested in this ongoing process is going to be substantial and after doing it for a number of years you may realise that your time is actually worth something (in terms of $$$) and you want to earn some rewards for that too. 
Of course, you can just wrap it up at any stage and take up stamp collecting instead, but that's what separates the goats from the sheep.
That's how I see it.


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## Waterrat (Oct 29, 2010)

Just would like to add, I don't understand the mentality of people saying that if you're making money from the hobby, it's no longer a hobby. Why not? I would have thought the opposite - it's an incentive. It may allow you to build that outdoor pit you always wanted, buy more animals, books or go the to next Herp symposium to learn more about you beloved animals and the hobby itself. Making money out your hobby is not evil. Perhaps I should define what I meant by "breeders for money" in the above post; they're those who sell snakes to buy drugs or spend the money on their hot rods...... they're the goats. :shock:


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## syeph8 (Oct 29, 2010)

Im getting your point even less now michael, so excuse my ignorance but i need some clarity on your oppinion of this issue. your above post seems to be saying to me that you spend your time and money trying to develop quality snakes, and you sell the "undesirable" ones (or the ones you dont want.. which is perfectly understandable). if you can make a profit from this then good on you. what you spend that profit on is your business and nobody elses. buy drugs, grog, hotrods, goats, or a pit. for this time you are spending on developing your "desireable snakes" (which you are not selling at this point) you believe that the customers recieving those undesirable snakes should pay? im not saying that a lot of hard work and forethought dont go into breeding (sometimes, depending on the breeder), im simply saying i would consider this hard work and forethought to be an enjoyable hobby, not a job (to clarify, i am not saying that if you make money out of a hobby its not longer a hobby, i am saying that most hobbies cost money and herping HAS been an exception for some where simply enjoying the hobby can lead to a small ammount of revenue.. this may change, it may not, im not going to predict the financial weather.) . i have seen some of the animals you have produced and all i have seen are teriffic, you have had a great stock to start your breeding with and for that i am envious. i am, however, a little dissapointed that someone who works with such beautiful examples of GTP's would not be more humbled and appreciative of his luck and simply enjoy his hobby.


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## Waterrat (Oct 29, 2010)

OK, I try to explain myself better. 
Lets say, I have a clutch of 20 juveniles. In order to select the ones with a potential to improve the trait I am working on, I have to keep the 20 snakes for 8 months to 1 year. I then select 2 or 3 pairs as future breeders and sell the rest. I used the term "undesirable" - that doesn't mean they are second class snakes, all it means that they're unsuitable for my breeding program but may be much appreciated by other keepers.
My involvement with GTPs is not my job, photography and publishing is (in the last few years). However, I don't see any reason why I couldn't make money from snakes, the money goes back to the hobby (not to drugs or grog) and I feel quite good about it. There is no rule that hobby should cost money, it often does but there are exceptions. Some people play stock market as a hobby, sometimes they have a windfall, sometimes they loose. 
As to your last sentence; I enjoy working with my snakes immensely, I don't know how to convince you of this, I worked with reptiles all my life and all my life I had a steady job as well. Why should I be humble about what I am doing? Yes, I was lucky with my snakes but I also spent lifetime studying them, working in the Zoo industry and keeping private collection as well. Now I am doing my best to disseminate my knowledge and experience through my magazine articles, books, talks, etc.. To me, it's much, much more than just a keeping / breeding hobby.
I trust I clarified the points you raised.


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## syeph8 (Oct 29, 2010)

points clarified and understood, and i am not opposed to anyone charging whatever they want for anything they want to sell. if you arent willing to part with your animals for less than $20,000 thats your price and i wish you good luck selling them, same if you are happy to sell them for a dollar or even give them away for free (then id reccomend that you make sure the guy has an understanding and appreciation of the cost to keep the animal). i am not against people selling animals for as much as they want to in the slightest, merely against the people i always hear complaining about undercutting and how low the market is dipping etc etc etc because in the end of the day, complaining about it isnt going to change anything and there are always going to be people who just breed purely for the enjoyment of being part of the process but have no real interest in keeping the offspring for substantial periods of time (personally im a fan of pursuing interesting and desirable characteristics over as many generations as my lifespan will allow, but not everybody is me).


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## dani_boy (Oct 30, 2010)

why r GTP's so much more expensive than other snakes?


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

Why is Ferrari more expensive than Holden? :shock:


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## blakehose (Oct 31, 2010)

dani_boy said:


> why r GTP's so much more expensive than other snakes?



That's a rhetorical question isn't it?


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## kupper (Oct 31, 2010)

Michael I think you have summed up this price argument well in your last response .... End of the day those who want a good quality animal will pay for one. 
There have been many closing statements on this thread I think the mods should consider closing it before it comes back around full circle again


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## Nagraj (Oct 31, 2010)

What makes a GTP a Ferrari while other snakes are just Holdens?


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## CodeRed (Oct 31, 2010)

Nagraj said:


> What makes a GTP a Ferrari while other snakes are just Holdens?


 
they're not anymore. Jags are the new Ferraris of the reptile world


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## Australis (Oct 31, 2010)

CodeRed said:


> they're not anymore. Jags are the new Ferraris of the reptile world


 
Don't need any advanced/ higher license for them either.. interesting times ha.


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

Nagraj said:


> What makes a GTP a Ferrari while other snakes are just Holdens?


 
In my eyes - yes. In yours probably not, lets not argue about it.

CodeRed, Jaguar is much cheaper than Ferrari


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## burger (Oct 31, 2010)

kupper said:


> There have been many closing statements on this thread I think the mods should consider closing it before it comes back around full circle again



I am in utter shock that this thread is still going! I entered the debate briefly about...two weeks ago.

Allow me to summarise:
1) GTP's used to be quite the gravy train in the early days, and are now becoming not nearly so much, with some a little bit upset over the direction things are going.

2) Some breeders continue to charge higher than the 'going rate', with some happy to pay that, and others not.

3) Anyone who makes money from breeding is evidently a money grabber, and people look down on them because they have been successful.

4) GTP's are indeed Ferraris. 

5) Jag's are great looking animals, but seriously, having cool patterns will never put them in the same league as a GTP.

Now let close this thread and move on with our lives.


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## Scleropages (Oct 31, 2010)

Link to the $300 BHPs? I could always do with a few more


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## Bushman (Oct 31, 2010)

Aren't Jaguar carpet pythons an illegal import from smuggled-in overseas bloodlines?
I don't think that ethical herpers would condone smuggling activity by supporting morphs with a dodgy history.


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## dani_boy (Oct 31, 2010)

so is anyone going to answer my question cuz i was being serious


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## cris (Oct 31, 2010)

dani_boy said:


> so is anyone going to answer my question cuz i was being serious


 
GTPs are/were more expensive because people are willing to pay that price for them. Sure there are plenty of other reptiles in greater demand that cost less, but they have massive waiting lists or are simply hard to obtain unless you are a herp socialite.


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

dani_boy said:


> so is anyone going to answer my question cuz i was being serious


 
Dani_boy, you question has been answered.

Someone asked me; "_how do you justify asking twice as much for your snakes than Joe Blow? Are they that much better?_"
Well, you can flip the coin and ask Joe Blow: "_are you snakes not good enough by that much?_"

The problem we have in this hobby, there are no standards. The penniless grubs keep on screaming "the cheaper, the better" and their followers take the bottom price as a benchmark. It is not. Benchmark is never set by price - it is always set by certain standard and quality and prices fluctuate above and bellow that benchmark. 

At the moment the benchmark (per each species) is arbitrary and herpers have to decide which is more important to them - price or quality. It is an individual decision but pulling the benchmark down into the gutter because you can't afford this or that is not fair. It may influence others, less experienced herpers and newbies.


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## cris (Oct 31, 2010)

Bushman said:


> Aren't Jaguar carpet pythons an illegal import from smuggled-in overseas bloodlines?
> I don't think that ethical herpers would condone smuggling activity by supporting morphs with a dodgy history.


 
It would be an obvious assumption, but you wouldnt be able to prove it unless you did it your self and took some pics for the extreme sceptics. Even without this they are illegal for a number of other reasons, one being their neurological problems which make breeding them against many animal cruelty laws. I would be extremely suprised if anyone got prosecuted for it though (unless caught at the airport).


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## cris (Oct 31, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> Someone asked me; "_how do you justify asking twice as much for your snakes than Joe Blow? Are they that much better?_"
> Well, you can flip the coin and ask Joe Blow: "_are you snakes not good enough by that much?_"
> 
> The problem we have in this hobby, there are no standards. The penniless grubs keep on screaming "the cheaper, the better" and their followers take the bottom price as a benchmark. It is not. Benchmark is never set by price - it is always set by certain standard and quality and prices fluctuate above and bellow that benchmark.
> ...


 
What about someone who breeds reptiles without having an established business, long running reputation or sponsership etc. ? How can they expect to sell the same quality animal without all the promotion? To me it would be reasonable to assume they should be asking a lower price.


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## JasonL (Oct 31, 2010)

Bushman said:


> Aren't Jaguar carpet pythons an illegal import from smuggled-in overseas bloodlines?
> I don't think that ethical herpers would condone smuggling activity by supporting morphs with a dodgy history.


 
Don't be fooled, there is free trade between Australia and the rest of the world and ethics takes a back seat to dollars.


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## syeph8 (Oct 31, 2010)

Waterrat;1815496
At the moment the benchmark (per each species) is arbitrary and herpers have to decide which is more important to them - price or quality. It is an individual decision but pulling the benchmark down into the gutter because you can't afford this or that is not fair. It may influence others said:


> but surely that is conjecture and not at all proven. This again is the case of how much people are willing to let go of their snakes for. To state that price always directly reflects the quality of a persons animals is slanderous and untrue. theoretically and in an ordered world, this would be the case. Practically and in the chaotic world (in which we live) it will never be.
> 
> another point on this "time x effort x cost of upkeep = price" scenario which has come up a few time. If the time/effort/feeding costs were a major factor in determining price then colubrids such as the common tree snake would cost more than GTP's with the higher frequency of feeding and the difficulty of getting hatchies feeding steadily on fish & mice. Not to mention the challenges of getting CTS to have successful clutches unless you are living in or around their native area.


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## Albs (Oct 31, 2010)

These threads should be banned. Round and round they go same old @#$%.


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## Bushman (Oct 31, 2010)

Unfortunately I think you're right Jason. I've heard that there's all sorts of exotic reptiles being found in Oz that most probably have been smuggled in illegally; and with them some serious diseases that have the potential to wipe out native wild populations. This is also no doubt how exotic pests and diseases got into the country. 
Fortunately, the majority of the herp community frown upon the exotic species and morphs that are illegally in the country for the above reasons.


cris said:


> It would be an obvious assumption, but you wouldnt be able to prove it unless you did it your self and took some pics for the extreme sceptics. Even without this they are illegal for a number of other reasons, one being their neurological problems which make breeding them against many animal cruelty laws. I would be extremely suprised if anyone got prosecuted for it though (unless caught at the airport).


I didn't know that Cris, so thanks. It doesn't surprise me that such health problems exist in seriously inbred bloodlines like some of these exotic morphs. 

I've never understood how any decent person can risk the lives of our precious fauna by having anything to do with exotics in this country. To bring the conversation back on topic, I don't think that the price of any exotic species of bloodlines should be comparable to pure bred native bloodlines. Buy Australian!


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

syeph8 said:


> To state that price always directly reflects the quality of a persons animals is slanderous and untrue.



Did I say anything like that?

Cris, they have to pull their finger out. Too many breeders "prefer" to hide in the woods, for whatever reason, I am not critical of that but it's hard to build up reputation if the masses don't know who you are and what you're doing. I don't have any sponsors or established business but I do have a set of guidelines:

Promote your product
Promote your services
Promote yourself
Promote the industry
Promote those who help you
Never criticise opposition's product
BUT emphasize all the good points of your product

A key to success? maybe, time will tell.


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## Bushman (Oct 31, 2010)

Albs said:


> These threads should be banned. Round and round they go same old @#$%.


Those smiley's should be banned for the same reason!


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

Albs, there are other threads here that you may appreciate more, e.g. "what should I call my new beardie?".


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## Scleropages (Oct 31, 2010)

dani_boy said:


> why r GTP's so much more expensive than other snakes?



Most people who breed them want to sell them for alot to cover the price they paid for them years ago.A few years ago they where 5k a hatchy,now there are more people breeding them and more around the price is alot lower.

They don't cost anymore than a carpet to keep , in fact an adult carpet would cost more to feed than an adult GTP.- so I can't see why they should still cost so much.


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

Scleropages said:


> They don't cost anymore than a carpet to keep , in fact an adult carpet would cost more to feed than an adult GTP.- so I can't see why they should still cost so much.



That is a truly weird logic. Have you ever kept GTPs? :?


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## Scleropages (Oct 31, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> That is a truly weird logic. Have you ever kept GTPs? :?


 
Yes I do.


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## Wookie (Oct 31, 2010)

...


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## Wookie (Oct 31, 2010)

Albs said:


> These threads should be banned. Round and round they go same old @#$%.



There is nothing wrong with a bit of debate. Nobody is overstepping. It is simply people exchanging their opinions. I can't see a reason for banning threads that involve personal opinion... Would make for a pretty boring forum IMO. Perhaps don't support the thread with views and posts if you are upset by it?


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## Wookie (Oct 31, 2010)

Syeph8, are you arguing that it costs no more to breed an arbitrarily defined "quality" GTP that it does to breed a "lesser quality" GTP? If so I agree.*

Particular traits that are unique are what attracts the heftier price tag. If two people breed GTPs without notable traits, more often than not the cheaper one will sell faster.

Also I reiterate, it is entirely possible to have both price and quality. Cheaper doesn't equal poor quality. 

Furthermore, waterrat: wanting a cheaper product does NOT make you a (and I quote) "penniless grub". It makes you a smart shopper. Analogy: to me it seems silly to pay more for milk at the corner store when you can buy the same milk at woolworths for half the price.^

*note: no assumptions this time 

^ disclaimer: In no regard is the aforementioned example a representation of any members or associations and their products, nor does the nominated price difference hold any virtue outside the example.


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

Brodak_Moment said:


> Furthermore, waterrat: wanting a cheaper product does NOT make you a (and I quote) "penniless grub". It makes you a smart shopper. Analogy: to me it seems silly to pay more for milk at the corner store when you can buy the same milk at woolworths for half the price.^



It's pity you misunderstood: penniless people are not grubs. Grubs with no money are "penniless grubs", their ambition in life to pull successful people down to their own level.

You analogy is interesting but would you agree that - milk is something you NEED every day (unless you like black coffee) - GTP is a living animal that you don't need but may desire to have one. The price of milk and GTP is not the same either.
I never said or implied that cheaper GTPs are inferior, I said their price does not determine the benchmark.


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## cris (Oct 31, 2010)

Im not knocking anyone for having a reptile business or sponsership etc. all im saying is that those that dont do that shouldnt expect to be able to sell things as easily at the same prices. 



Bushman said:


> I didn't know that Cris, so thanks. It doesn't surprise me that such health problems exist in seriously inbred bloodlines like some of these exotic morphs.


 
While you may get various problems from poor breeding, the jag mutation is one that brings with it neurological problems, many are hybrids and its nothing to do with inbreeding (that is seperate topic). Its quite possible the same mutation appeared here legally and its just been covered up to make it look like they are all smuggled in


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## syeph8 (Oct 31, 2010)

Waterrat said:


> I never said or implied that cheaper GTPs are inferior, I said their price does not determine the benchmark.


 
on this i agree with you. there are some very good looking and healthy GTP's on the market for a low price. they may not be as vibrant as yours, but are still amazing to look at and come from good clean healthy stock and maintained very well by their breeders. i would be perfectly comfortable setting the benchmark with these snakes.



cris said:


> While you may get various problems from poor breeding, the jag mutation is one that brings with it neurological problems, many are hybrids and its nothing to do with inbreeding (that is seperate topic). Its quite possible the same mutation appeared here legally and its just been covered up to make it look like they are all smuggled in


 
hahaha couldnt have put it better myself


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

just as there are many more good looking GTPs for higher price than mine (look up RDU, Herptrader) but the focus seem to be fair and square on the cheap ones and even they are not cheap enough for the penniless grubs. 
I better stop here.


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## Slateman (Oct 31, 2010)

I prefer not to call people names. most of the people who do this usually like to think that they are better than others. Final result is that they put them self down in the process.
There is many readers here and most of them don't post, just read. I bet that they are rolling they eyes some times.
Why to call anybody penniless grubs?


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## cris (Oct 31, 2010)

Slateman said:


> I prefer not to call people names. most of the people who do this usually like to think that they are better than others. Final result is that they put them self down in the process.
> There is many readers here and most of them don't post, just read. I bet that they are rolling they eyes some times.
> Why to call anybody penniless grubs?


 
Are you saying a grub is an inferrior animal? I was thinking it was a complement refering to efficiency and productivity. What sort of grub would collect old coins anyway? 

Without grubs the entire ecosystem would crash, they are far more important in the ecosystem than something like a GTP. Also where would the mechanical world be without grub screws? Are they inferrior to a cheap rounded slot head that is poorly cast?


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## impulse reptiles (Oct 31, 2010)

a few years ago when the amount of carpets being bred was only small ,the breeders made out that they were hard to breed ,then larger numbers were being bred we all know now how easily they are to keep and breed.

carpets are hardy , greens are a little more tricky but if keepers begin to understand GTPs and give them what they need (very little imo) there's no reason why they can't be readily available and easily bred.


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## Waterrat (Oct 31, 2010)

Slateman said:


> I prefer not to call people names. most of the people who do this usually like to think that they are better than others. Final result is that they put them self down in the process.
> There is many readers here and most of them don't post, just read. I bet that they are rolling they eyes some times.
> Why to call anybody penniless grubs?


 
Got your message Slateman, I am now joining the readers.


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## Nagraj (Oct 31, 2010)




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