# update on border collie pups



## bulionz (Dec 2, 2009)

in my 1st thread about these little guy's i said i would keep use updated..so here ya go.











they are 4 weeks old.


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## Notorious_Guf (Dec 2, 2009)

oh man I want one!


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## naledge (Dec 2, 2009)

The one in the first picture looks exactly like my first dog, she's in a bad condition atm though :/

Border Collies and Border Collie X's make excellent pets.


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## bulionz (Dec 2, 2009)

yer lol there the best dogs ever ..there pure bred btw.


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## Dave (Dec 2, 2009)

What's your kennel name? they are cute.


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## bulionz (Dec 2, 2009)

what do u mean by kennel like a breeders thing or something or the name of the kennel in the background


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## Dave (Dec 2, 2009)

breeders prefix


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## bulionz (Dec 2, 2009)

dont have 1, we might breed border collie so we will get a kennel's name and all that and some dogs with papers.


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## notechistiger (Dec 2, 2009)

Where's the mum?


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## bulionz (Dec 2, 2009)

mum and puppies



dad


pic abit old


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## whiteyluvsrum (Dec 2, 2009)

have the parents had there health checks done pryor?


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## bulionz (Dec 2, 2009)

yes they have all there needles,and reguler check ups and pups will have there vaccinations done shortly.


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## =bECS= (Dec 2, 2009)

Cute, i like the one with the white spot on its back.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Dec 2, 2009)

bulionz said:


> yes they have all there needles,and reguler check ups and pups will have there vaccinations done shortly.



No, I mean specific breed health checks that collies are vulnerable to like Hip Dysplasia, Ceroid Lipofuscinosis, Collie Eye Anomaly?


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## notechistiger (Dec 3, 2009)

If he doesn't know what you're talking about the first time, whitey, then I doubt it. I also doubt it if they haven't got a prefix. I, personally, would not buy these puppies, because I choose not to further "backyard breeders" and their dogs which have not had the proper testing needed.


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## Vixen (Dec 3, 2009)

notechistiger said:


> If he doesn't know what you're talking about the first time, whitey, then I doubt it. I also doubt it if they haven't got a prefix. I, personally, would not buy these puppies, because I choose not to further "backyard breeders" and their dogs which have not had the proper testing needed.



Ditto


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## dirtybert (Dec 3, 2009)

cross breeds are generally healthier then pedigrees due to a deeper gene pool and no inbreeding. name a breed that isnt prone to hip displaysia?? to me the issue would be paying pedigree prices when there arent any papers to view.

having your bitch provide a litter isnt a big deal as long as it isnt a seasonal think. most registered breeders will get their bitch to produce a litter annually which isnt ideal but the real problems are with puppy mills and people not buying the right dog according to their environment/lifestyle.


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

im fairly sure it is illegal to be a "backyard breeder" so to speak - unless your dog is registered as undesexed with your local council and in order for it to be registered as undesexed u need a breeders license which comes from having papered pets and being regsitered with a canine counci...... but i could also be competley wrong LOL
i do love the first pic, the pup looks so freaking happy, love it when they smile


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## dirtybert (Dec 3, 2009)

cant speak for act but in sa theres nothing preventing anyone over the age of 16 owning a dog and that dog can be entire or desexed. papers have nothing to do with being able to or not being able to breed a dog. however unless one does have papers terms like pedigree or pure breed should be avoided as they cant be verified.

the only gripe i have with backyard/recreational/hobbyist breeders is that a lot of them sell to pet shops where the puppies live in unhealthy environments and are in a constant state of visual but not physical stimulation this causes lots of behavioural issues later on. the other problem with petshop puppies is that they inevitably attract impulse buying which in turn results in surrenders usually when the dog is about a year old or when the next rego fees are due.


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

got this from the ACT domestic animals page. i think i agree with this, i guess coz u have to have the dog desexed that means if u have pups thats breaking the law? (if your dog is within the desexing age bracket of course)
_Do I need to de-sex my dog?_
_It is compulsory for all dogs born on or after the 21st June 2001 to be de-sexed unless the owner obtains a permit, at a charge from Domestic Animal Services to keep the dog sexually entire. _


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## dirtybert (Dec 3, 2009)

dog and cat laws vary so much from state to state even council to council. for example im in the onkaparinga council which has no limit on cat numbers nor does it stipulate whether they are to be desexed or entire. marion council which is figuratively next door imposes a maximum of two desexed cats per property.

your avatar looks like a pic from douchebags with hot chicks. hope i didnt just tread on some toes there.


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

its crazy the different laws!
douchebags??? um the pic is of me and some of my friends at a festival lol


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## JupiterCreek (Dec 3, 2009)

Not hard to spot the ANKC supporters is it? I have two BCs. Bailey's pedigreed (Busheyhall Bluesboy) and Gypsy's working lines (Honeyvale), buit of course the ANKC people wouldn't recognise Honeyvale as a valid prefix. Bailey is a fluffy, gorgeous, good-natured, vaguely obedient eating machine (with an undershot jaw). Gypsy is a lean, gorgeous, good-natured, very obedient, phenomenally intelligent bitch who would much rather have a pat or a word of praise than a feed. Both are neutered and microchipped of course. When the time comes to say goodbye to Gypsy I'll be looking for another BC from a home breeder who's running Honeyvale lines (the original Honeyvale breeder at Clare here in SA has retired and is in poor health). As much as I love Bailey I wouldn't be rushing off to buy another pedigreed BC, but I do have the highest respect for some ANKC breeders, especially those who follow the rules and refrain from breeding from lines known or suspected to have CL in their lines AND have BCs that show the temperament and intelligence that makes BCs the best dog. There's a definite difference between a Border Collie and a Barbie Collie!


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

With me personaly its more the fact that i worked at the RSPCA for so long and saw so many pups and young dogs come in as a result of back yard undesexed dogs. A lot of the time people were selling the pups off very cheap ( $50.00 - $200.00 ) there for leading to a lot of impluse buys and sometimes not always the best homes.
Now please do not get me wrong iam in NO way saying that ALL people who dont pay much for there dogs do not look after them or give them the love they deserve or that unregistered dog owners would let there pups go to just any home or that cross breeds are bad. just saying that they made up the majority of unwanted or ill treated dogs.


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

Jupiter creek, 3rd pic is adorable


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## Helikaon (Dec 3, 2009)

miss2 said:


> With me personaly its more the fact that i worked at the RSPCA for so long and saw so many pups and young dogs come in as a result of back yard undesexed dogs. A lot of the time people were selling the pups off very cheap ( $50.00 - $200.00 ) there for leading to a lot of impluse buys and sometimes not always the best homes.
> Now please do not get me wrong iam in NO way saying that ALL people who dont pay much for there dogs do not look after them or give them the love they deserve or that unregistered dog owners would let there pups go to just any home or that cross breeds are bad. just saying that they made up the majority of unwanted or ill treated dogs.




in my experience, cost/breed/behaviour is all irrelevent when it comes to being mistreated. i've seen tossers go out and buy pedigree pups worth crap loads, and then they dont vaccinate, dont treat for heart worm, then it comes in with some other easily prevented problem. that or they now want it gone becuase it doesnt have any training or some other made up excuse.


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## Helikaon (Dec 3, 2009)

that or they get them euthanased because they dont want anyone else to have them... ive heard that one about 6 to many times.


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## JupiterCreek (Dec 3, 2009)

miss2 said:


> Jupiter creek, 3rd pic is adorable


 
That one is Gypsy when she was a pup, same dog as the first pic. She was a very leggy pup but grew into a typical athletic working BC.


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## shellfisch (Dec 3, 2009)

dirtybert said:


> the only gripe i have with backyard/recreational/hobbyist breeders is that a lot of them sell to pet shops where the puppies live in unhealthy environments and are in a constant state of visual but not physical stimulation this causes lots of behavioural issues later on. The other problem with petshop puppies is that they inevitably attract impulse buying which in turn results in surrenders usually when the dog is about a year old or when the next rego fees are due.



i so agree!!


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## Vixen (Dec 3, 2009)

JupiterCreek said:


> Not hard to spot the ANKC supporters is it? I have two BCs. Bailey's pedigreed (Busheyhall Bluesboy) and Gypsy's working lines (Honeyvale), buit of course the ANKC people wouldn't recognise Honeyvale as a valid prefix. Bailey is a fluffy, gorgeous, good-natured, vaguely obedient eating machine (with an undershot jaw). Gypsy is a lean, gorgeous, good-natured, very obedient, phenomenally intelligent bitch who would much rather have a pat or a word of praise than a feed. Both are neutered and microchipped of course. When the time comes to say goodbye to Gypsy I'll be looking for another BC from a home breeder who's running Honeyvale lines (the original Honeyvale breeder at Clare here in SA has retired and is in poor health). As much as I love Bailey I wouldn't be rushing off to buy another pedigreed BC, but I do have the highest respect for some ANKC breeders, especially those who follow the rules and refrain from breeding from lines known or suspected to have CL in their lines AND have BCs that show the temperament and intelligence that makes BCs the best dog. There's a definite difference between a Border Collie and a Barbie Collie!



But see, alot of people won't have a problem with that, I certainly don't. I understand alot of working lines can't be used for show, and as such are not usually bred from ANKC breeders etc. Personally, I would prefer working lines wherever possible, as to me they are the 'true' breed, rather than alot of dumbed down show dogs nowadays.

When I get my German Shepherd, I will be getting him from Raennik. They are still a registered kennel, but have no interest in showing. As such they breed around once a year, and many of their puppies go off to be police dogs, or active family homes. I want a working line dog as I wish to participate in tracking, high level obedience, agility, guard dog training, and schutzhund with him, I absolutely believe a show line dog wouldn't be anywhere near as capable or willing, or have the right drive.

I would still consider a back yard breeder, ONLY if proper health checks have been done and they know what their doing. Not just breeding for the hell of it, or god forbid because 'she accidentally fell pregnant'. These are the people who shouldn't have dogs.


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## Dave (Dec 3, 2009)

That's why i asked him if he had a prefix, I didn't want to say anything else as i thought i'd get flamed.




notechistiger said:


> If he doesn't know what you're talking about the first time, whitey, then I doubt it. I also doubt it if they haven't got a prefix. I, personally, would not buy these puppies, because I choose not to further "backyard breeders" and their dogs which have not had the proper testing needed.


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## whiteyluvsrum (Dec 3, 2009)

notechistiger said:


> If he doesn't know what you're talking about the first time, whitey, then I doubt it. I also doubt it if they haven't got a prefix.


Yeah, I’m not too fussed about ANKC registration or prefix names. I’m more interested in the health & temperament of the dogs & the intentions the breeders have. I’m not too fussed about cross breeding either only if it’s for a valid reason.
Though to me, ANKC breeders get a little more respect from me because they have taken the time to go through the process properly & most have done their research and have some idea on what they’re doing and have planned there breedings & have goals they want to achieve out of it. Like most genuine reptile breeders, they don’t usually make much prophet if any from sales as they just do it for the love of their breed.



dirtybert said:


> cross breeds are generally healthier then pedigrees due to a deeper gene pool and no inbreeding. name a breed that isnt prone to hip displaysia?? to me the issue would be paying pedigree prices when there arent any papers to view.
> 
> having your bitch provide a litter isnt a big deal as long as it isnt a seasonal think. most registered breeders will get their bitch to produce a litter annually which isnt ideal but the real problems are with puppy mills and people not buying the right dog according to their environment/lifestyle.


I disagree with some of your points, pures look like they have a lot of health issues is because they have records and databases going back generations, which make health issues in purebred dogs visible. Cross breeds don't have health records and databases. Cross breeds will still carry the genetic diseases through there pups that are from the each individual breed used in the cross. It’s even more of a lotto.
Least with pures, you no know what you’re getting, crosses is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.
I agree Hip dysplasia is prone to most breeds that’s why it’s even more important to get breeding dogs X-rayed before breeding them so they don’t pass on potential severe hip problems to their pups as it is a very painful condition. 
I disagree about registered breeders breeding from the same girl year after year, as in many of the code of ethics you’re not allowed to breed from the same girl consecutively unless you have been cleared from a vet and the club.



miss2 said:


> im fairly sure it is illegal to be a "backyard breeder" so to speak - unless your dog is registered as undesexed with your local council and in order for it to be registered as undesexed u need a breeders license which comes from having papered pets and being regsitered with a canine counci...... but i could also be competley wrong LOL
> i do love the first pic, the pup looks so freaking happy, love it when they smile



Each council/shire has there own laws regarding dogs & breeding. Most places it's open season & its too hard to police anyway.


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

notechistiger said:


> If he doesn't know what you're talking about the first time, whitey, then I doubt it. I also doubt it if they haven't got a prefix. I, personally, would not buy these puppies, because I choose not to further "backyard breeders" and their dogs which have not had the proper testing needed.


 im not starting an arguement or anything but i am 14 and own 1 dog.do i look like i get a prfix or wat ever all i no is they get regurler health checks and there needles...o and u cant buy there all sold.


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## Vixen (Dec 3, 2009)

bulionz said:


> im not starting an arguement or anything but i am 14 and own 1 dog.do i look like i get a prfix or wat ever all i no is they get regurler health checks and there needles...o and u cant buy there all sold.


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

why does almost every thread start into something its not!!!!


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

did u get them micorchipped? thats another law ACT has all dogs must be microchipped but that might just be here.
vixen babe - im with you %100 on this one - 'she accidentally fell pregnant'. These are the people who shouldn't have dogs. !!!!


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## Mrs I (Dec 3, 2009)

Give the kid a break ... 14 years old and excited to show off some puppies that obviously his parents are responsible for....

Gee APS is so friendly these days !!


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

thanks mrs 1 and yes they will be microchipped and they wernt accidentally bred gesss u see use make ur own storey and argue without even knowing the right storey.


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## dames1978 (Dec 3, 2009)

Mrs I said:


> Give the kid a break ... 14 years old and excited to show off some puppies that obviously his parents are responsible for....
> 
> Gee APS is so friendly these days !!



well said


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

bulionz said:


> thanks mrs 1 and yes they will be microchipped and they wernt accidentally bred gesss u see use make ur own storey and argue without even knowing the right storey.


 
when you say 'use' im guesing your trying to turn the word 'you' into a plural word?
not sure if you read what i wrote but im fairly sure i complimented your pups and also stated that i was not trying to offend or have a go at anyone.......


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## whiteyluvsrum (Dec 3, 2009)

I can't see any comment that is bullying bulionz? It’s a good educational thread.


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

well guys/girls i just put this thread up so that everyone could see,miss 2 you also said( 'she accidentally fell pregnant'. These are the people who shouldn't have dogs. !!!! ) so unless that wasnt based on me im sorry,and yer its good but i only bred them once lol and im not having my male bc (my pride and joy)being a sex machine ,he will be desexed shortly and im also only 14 (15 nxt friday)so i cant take them to a vet when i want look after them the way i want and all this other stuff everyone is talking about .,.... i cant do it ,so there ya go lol ,you get me now 

I MIGHT ADD THAT THE DOGS ARE VERY LOOKED AFTER AND VERY HEALTHY!!!


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## Mrs I (Dec 3, 2009)

whiteyluvsrum said:


> I can't see any comment that is bullying bulionz? It’s a good educational thread.


 

May well be educational, but a lot of people are commenting on his situation. He is 14 !!

Maybe you would like his parents number to discuss with them instead.

Want to start a thread on back yard dog breeding and the legalities go for it, but this kid just wanted to show off some puppies.

And i am sure he doesnt know the legalities. Plus here in SA we can have undesexed dogs ! Can also breed them if we choose to do so ! And they dont have to be microchipped !

Very cute pups too.

We have a Kelpie x Border Collie and she is awesome.


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

VixenBabe said:


> But see, alot of people won't have a problem with that, I certainly don't. I understand alot of working lines can't be used for show, and as such are not usually bred from ANKC breeders etc. Personally, I would prefer working lines wherever possible, as to me they are the 'true' breed, rather than alot of dumbed down show dogs nowadays.
> 
> When I get my German Shepherd, I will be getting him from Raennik. They are still a registered kennel, but have no interest in showing. As such they breed around once a year, and many of their puppies go off to be police dogs, or active family homes. I want a working line dog as I wish to participate in tracking, high level obedience, agility, guard dog training, and schutzhund with him, I absolutely believe a show line dog wouldn't be anywhere near as capable or willing, or have the right drive.
> 
> I* would still consider a back yard breeder, ONLY if proper health checks have been done and they know what their doing. Not just breeding for the hell of it, or god forbid because 'she accidentally fell pregnant'. These are the people who shouldn't have dogs*.


 
u need to pay attention to what people are writting on YOUR thread


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

hahahahaha you wonna no something miss 2 that was the only post i havnt read !sorry!
and thanks mrs 1 lol ur a champ


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## miss2 (Dec 3, 2009)

serious bulionz? lol thats preety funny


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## whiteyluvsrum (Dec 3, 2009)

Mrs I said:


> May well be educational, but a lot of people are commenting on his situation. He is 14 !!
> 
> Want to start a thread on back yard dog breeding and the legalities go for it.
> 
> Plus here in SA we can have undesexed dogs ! Can also breed them if we choose to do so ! And they dont have to be microchipped !



I don't see them aimed at him personally?

There is no legalities to back yard breeding thats why its called BYB. 

It’s not "Your" choice to breed if you choose to do so, that’s very irresponsible and selfish on your part. You should be considering your pets first & foremost as you are the one that should be caring for their health & well being , you are responsible for them. Same goes with any pups.


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

yer i know whitey, dont worry hes getting desexed because male dog's get (you know)always humping things he has'nt yet ,but that was his 1st time and never again lol.


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## Mrs I (Dec 3, 2009)

Why bother this is APS afterall ....


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

what do you mean mrs 1


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## Mrs I (Dec 3, 2009)

I mean it doesnt matter what the discussion is, everyone has their own opinion, just sometimes on APS they dont come across as opinions they come across harsh !! (can almost see the finger pointing as they are speaking)

How about Backyard breeders of Reptiles then ??

Should every reptile have a full vet health check before breeding, do you condone people selling reptiles that have not been to the vet for a health check first ??

Maybe we should only buy from Reptile Stores and Registered Breeders, that have had all the appropriate health checks done on their animals before they breed them and sell them ......... 

There are certainly a number of cases of unhealthy reptiles being sold off !!


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## JupiterCreek (Dec 3, 2009)

Hi Bulionz

Sorry this is long, but everyone's just putting up a few bits of info or opinion and it's probably not answering your questions.... so here goes mate! 

The laws on breeding, microchipping, numbers of dogs you can keep etc. vary from state to state. Best place for information is your local council. If you look on your dogs' tags the name of the council should be on there, or maybe ask Mum or Dad. Your council probably has a website with info on dog registration, care, the local laws etc., so you can get some info there. They might have a link to the state or territory dog management authority which will once again have heaps of info.

As for the prefix thing... 
Each state has what used to be a kennel club. Here in South Australia it's called DogsSA, previously the South Australian Canine Association. All those state and territory clubs or associations are affiliated with the ANKC (Australian National Kennel Council). When people who keep a new breed of dog want that breed recognised they have to apply to the state organisation. If the state organisation accepts the breed then the people who have those dogs submit those animals as being foundation stock. So with our border collies when the ANKC decided that border collies were a formal breed (as opposed to being black and white sheepdogs) the people who wanted to show their dogs as being what a border collie should look like submitted their dogs as foundation stock. The border collies bred by a farmer that work sheep brilliantly might be just as good or better than the ones put up as foundation stock, but once that foundation stock was accepted the "studbook" was closed. So in the case of my dumb but gorgeous Bailey he's a predigreed border collie, and his prefix is Busheyhall, so his registered name is Busheyhall Bluesboy. Gypsy, my intelligent and gorgeous border collie is not accepted by the ANKC people as a border collie because she's not pedigreed, but the farmer who bred her called his business Honeyvale, so she's said to be from Honeyvale lines. As well as the ANKC register of prefixes and pedigrees there are also various registers for working dogs, and farmers or stockmen who are looking for a good working border collie would look for a dog from good working lines.

Where the lines get blurred is that there's a hereditary brain disease called ceroid lipofuscinosis (CL) that some border collies carry. It's a nasty one where the dog gets a buildup of stuff that's like cholesterol in the brain, and a pup can seem perfect but then when it gets a bit older (around 1-2 years old) it may have seizures, loss of coordinated muscle movements, change in temperament, and sometimes problems with eyesight. These dogs don't usually survive past 26-28 months, and unfortunately there is no treatment or cure. The good news is that only about 3% of border collies in Australia have or carry the gene for CL, but that doesn't help if your pup is in the 3%. The ANKC breeders keep track of the family tree of every dog, so when they discover CL in their stock they can just stop breeding from those dogs. If you buy a BC from a registered breeder (one with a prefix) then legally the border collie pup you buy SHOULD be guaranteed free from having or carrying CL. With any other border collie you don't know. CL is very rare, and the vast majority of bc's are free of the disease, but if you want to be 100% sure then you go with a registered breeder.

Apologies again for the length of this post, but I think you've got more info now.


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## bulionz (Dec 3, 2009)

thanks alot jupiter 
mum explained to me wat it was when she got home but u just help me twice as much thanks....and my dog the male his dad has papers but we took him cause the breeder is a freinds and he is the cruelest person in the world those poor animals dont even no wat food is and he was biggest so we got him lol ...o and he has been done by the rspca many times but they just go out and take all his pups and some adults but still let him have them these poor animal gessss he belts them and all, so we took him.the mum was brought from the pound and she is the sweetest dog ever and she was very skinny 11 kg she now wieghs about 20 so shes put on some weight plus feeding the pups and yes jupiter that was a great book u wrote then lol thanks and u made a good point ,,we will get a prefix when we get some dogs with papers 

o sorry if its hard to read i was just trying to say wat happen in all different words and alot of u no that im a crap speller


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## JupiterCreek (Dec 3, 2009)

No probs mate. I didn't want to overwhelm you with info but there was a bit to cover!

Well done on looking after your dogs and getting the female's weight back up. She's a border collie so she's your friend for life!


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