# Reptile Food Sizing



## miki_k8 (Mar 25, 2018)

Having just got home from the RepX expo in Brisbane, I was looking at some of the snake food information I picked up (2 main ones which were extensive price lists). Curiously, I noticed that each had a different "definition" of what each size feeder was. This was mainly in the frozen mice, but could also be seen in some extent in the frozen rats.

e.g. Company 1 classifies fuzzie mice as 3-6g. Company 2 would list something that weight as a pinkie. This continues up with all the sizes. Weaners are the only category with some similarities (13-18g vs. 15-19g).

Is there any real predefined measure of sizing which could be used to standardize something like this? I know when upsizing food myself, going from pinkies to fuzzies would seem logical, but if you changed supplier, the actual size of the food could be the same or smaller depending on each individuals classification system.

I mean no criticism, just pure curiosity on the matter.


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## Yellowtail (Mar 25, 2018)

It also depends on the breed of mice, my supermice fuzzies are the size of common mouse hoppers.
Depending on the species you should be getting them onto fuzzies straight away or asap, pinky mice have almost no nutritional value and the lack of bone/fur etc is not good for the digestive tract of pythons. In the wild they would be eating small frogs and lizards which are far more substantial.


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## pythoninfinite (Mar 25, 2018)

Rodent sizing descriptions are pretty much up to the supplier. What I call a small, medium & large rat will vary significantly from what someone else considers the same thing. There is no universal standard.


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## cris (Mar 25, 2018)

The weight should be a more useful indicator of size. Pinky rodents vary a lot in size, if you get them fresh from being pumped out they are much smaller than when they start to get fuzzy. If you just go for around 20% the weight of your python there is no need to worry about much else.

What did you think of the show?


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 25, 2018)

You see it all the way through the sizes. I notice more at the other end where what some people refer too as Jumbo are nothing more than a large.
I use 3 suppliers and the sizes do vary quite significantly between them but a pinky is a pinky. I think some of this is down to the breeds with pinkies and other small sizes as YT pointed out. But the breed shouldn't really come into it when we start talking mediums, large etc

I'm not sure why it happens so much but I think *some* breeders use this as a means to hike the prices. Its becoming as competitive a market as reptiles so there are bargains out there if you happen to be looking in the right places.


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## Bl69aze (Mar 25, 2018)

As it’s been said, it’s the same for pretty much all snake food.

I’m getting 55-65g weaner rats from camos, where somewhere else sells 40g rats for same price.

I just buy one packet of I think it’s ready for a size upgrade, weigh the packet of food for an average (total weight/ number of food items) then weigh snake and feed 25-30%.

If food items are too big, I just put them in the freezer and get some more current food items , you can also try going by the visual size how ever, and taking into consideration the snake will squish the prey into about 3/4 of what you fed it, stretching it and thinning it(due to the constriction) as a seller once said... “like a noodle”


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 25, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> live food



Typo???


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## Bl69aze (Mar 25, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Typo???


I was tired but yea I meant just reptile food, I guess i was thinking of like “rats live at one point”


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## miki_k8 (Mar 25, 2018)

Seems like if weight isn't listed, descriptors can easily become a marketing ploy to charge more for less.



Bl69aze said:


> I’m getting 55-65g weaner rats from camos, where somewhere else sells 40g rats for same price.”



Funny to look at these lists and see weaner rats listed in one of them as 21-45 g, compared to your normal purchasing of 55-65g size.



cris said:


> What did you think of the show?



I wasn't really a fan to be honest. The actual expo itself was well done, with a good variety of animals and different stalls and many knowledgeable people all gathered in one place. However it was incredibly packed and the army of families who turned up with prams and small children was frustrating. In my eyes RepX should have been a hobbyist event, and I am all for the education of young kids about reptiles and all things similar (and it was wonderful seeing the Bug Ed people doing really well with this, targeting the kids), but it made the event almost not enjoyable. I barely saw any of the private animal collections because of the masses of people there and pushy parents wanting their small ones to get up the front, before pushing in themselves. Definitely some amazing animals, wish I got a chance to look properly.


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## MANNING (Mar 25, 2018)

When I get rats from my supplier I only ask for the food by weight. I always just confused myself looking at charts and trying to work out what's what


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## cris (Mar 25, 2018)

miki_k8 said:


> I wasn't really a fan to be honest.



Yeah... Just thought I would check it out since I have never been to a reptile show/expo. If there was a list of what was there I could have saved my money, I was expecting more than half a dozen displays with common species. I have only ever been there for gun shows before and they have also been set up with no room to move. Still I don't feel like it was a ripoff and only a 10 minute drive, 10 minutes there then back home again.


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## miki_k8 (Mar 25, 2018)

cris said:


> Yeah... Just thought I would check it out since I have never been to a reptile show/expo. If there was a list of what was there I could have saved my money, I was expecting more than half a dozen displays with common species. I have only ever been there for gun shows before and they have also been set up with no room to move. Still I don't feel like it was a ripoff and only a 10 minute drive, 10 minutes there then back home again.



See it was 40 minutes by public transport for me each way, so it was quite a hike for not being able to see a lot. I agree with expecting more common species to see. I think having the displays integrated into the stalls would have been better for actually seeing the animals. I've been to the same hall in the past for tertiary expos and they seemed to pack a lot more people and stuff inside the same hall. Hopefully next year they can use the lecture rooms and find a bigger space to accommodate the crowds.
[doublepost=1521976317,1521976261][/doublepost]


MANNING said:


> When I get rats from my supplier I only ask for the food by weight. I always just confused myself looking at charts and trying to work out what's what



Think I may start doing this, seems easier than trying to work out descriptors with so much variation in the market.


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## Stuart (Mar 25, 2018)

Courtesy of APS, I have just solved the issue...

Image copyright, patent pending, spoken for, its my idea


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 25, 2018)

miki_k8 said:


> However it was incredibly packed and the army of families who turned up with prams and small children was frustrating. In my eyes RepX should have been a hobbyist event, and I am all for the education of young kids about reptiles and all things similar (and it was wonderful seeing the Bug Ed people doing really well with this, targeting the kids), but it made the event almost not enjoyable.



I'm sorry you feel that way and I wasn't at RepX so it might not compare but every VHS Expo I have been to is the same and I thinks its bloody awesome. So long as the kids don't get upset with all the pushing and shoving that goes on why shouldn't they be there?
Many of the stalls in Vic set up stuff especially for the kids to see & hold that they might not get chance elsewhere including a macaw and a young salty. I fear that if it wasn't for the family atmosphere many of the herpers wouldn't turn up either, and possibly some of the exhibitors. 
My 5 year old granddaughter has been to every VHS Expo since she was born and has attended 2 events interstate. She has an absolute ball and can talk you into a trance about her reptile adventures and her own animals.
[doublepost=1521977636,1521977196][/doublepost]Looks good Stu but I might need an upgrade for the BHP's. And what about the (expletive) massive sizes needed for Olives and Scrubby's?


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## miki_k8 (Mar 25, 2018)

Stuart said:


> Courtesy of APS, I have just solved the issue...
> 
> Image copyright, patent pending, spoken for, its my idea
> 
> View attachment 323680



hahahaha i love this, you should definitely go international with this, the target market is waiting for brilliance like this.



Pauls_Pythons said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way and I wasn't at RepX so it might not compare but every VHS Expo I have been to is the same and I thinks its bloody awesome. So long as the kids don't get upset with all the pushing and shoving that goes on why shouldn't they be there?
> Many of the stalls in Vic set up stuff especially for the kids to see & hold that they might not get chance elsewhere including a macaw and a young salty. I fear that if it wasn't for the family atmosphere many of the herpers wouldn't turn up either, and possibly some of the exhibitors.
> My 5 year old granddaughter has been to every VHS Expo since she was born and has attended 2 events interstate. She has an absolute ball and can talk you into a trance about her reptile adventures and her own animals.



That sounds awesome! Being the first year of RepX, I hope they can fix some of the things which weren't great this year and make it even better in the future. I understand your point, and agree. And it was wonderful seeing little kids learn about reptiles and bugs and how to treat them correctly. I found there was very little room though, and adding in prams and young children in the mix wasn't working well. Maybe VHS Expo could help a bit in terms of ideas and inspo for the future expos, sure would be great to be able to see a young salty!


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## Stuart (Mar 25, 2018)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Looks good Stu but I might need an upgrade for the BHP's. And what about the (expletive) massive sizes needed for Olives and Scrubby's?



On the way Paul, just working with the little ones first. Thinking of a tape measure version for the bigger ones...


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## Bl69aze (Mar 25, 2018)

Stuart said:


> On the way Paul, just working with the little ones first. Thinking of a tape measure version for the bigger ones...


Make it like a wrench with the size adjusting system ;p


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## Stuart (Mar 25, 2018)

Bl69aze said:


> Make it like a wrench with the size adjusting system ;p



I got ya....


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## Pauls_Pythons (Mar 25, 2018)

Awesome work Stu. You could go global with these. Be a millionaire in a month or 2.
While your on a roll why not patent a ball of string as a snake measuring kit


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## Buggster (Mar 25, 2018)

I wish there was a standard! 

Got rats for the first time at Camo’s couple months back and I asked for ‘small rats’ for my 2yr old Woma. I previously fed Raticool, and their ‘small’ rats are absolutely giant.
Camo brought out his ‘small’ rats and they’d were literally the size of adult mice. Once we managed to figure out the difference in sizing I was able to get on my way with a couple packs of appropriately sized rats.

The only thing I can recommend is to either go off by weight (if given) or stick to a single supplier of you can’t see rats prior to purchase just to make sure there is no miscommunication regarding size


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## Bl69aze (Mar 25, 2018)

Buggster said:


> I wish there was a standard!
> 
> Got rats for the first time at Camo’s couple months back and I asked for ‘small rats’ for my 2yr old Woma. I previously fed Raticool, and their ‘small’ rats are absolutely giant.
> Camo brought out his ‘small’ rats and they’d were literally the size of adult mice. Once we managed to figure out the difference in sizing I was able to get on my way with a couple packs of appropriately sized rats.
> ...


To be fair, if I was asked for “small” rats I’d get weaners or fuzzies  just on the assumption the person doesn’t know the different stages

Better to ask for small adult rats.

I had the same problem, asked for whatever and he said, everyone sizes their food different, so he asked for a picture of snake to get a proper size and recommended 350g rabbits


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## Virides (Apr 7, 2018)

miki_k8 said:


> I wasn't really a fan to be honest. The actual expo itself was well done, with a good variety of animals and different stalls and many knowledgeable people all gathered in one place. However it was incredibly packed and the army of families who turned up with prams and small children was frustrating. In my eyes RepX should have been a hobbyist event, and I am all for the education of young kids about reptiles and all things similar (and it was wonderful seeing the Bug Ed people doing really well with this, targeting the kids), but it made the event almost not enjoyable. I barely saw any of the private animal collections because of the masses of people there and pushy parents wanting their small ones to get up the front, before pushing in themselves. Definitely some amazing animals, wish I got a chance to look properly.



Thanks for attending and while the show wasn't as you'd have liked it, we take on all praise and criticism the same. The main reason why there was so many people is that we had to change how people could get in. It meant that there was a large influx but we were happy with the capacity - at least it didn't clog up. In future though, we may be looking at either the show being over 2 days, or increasing the size, or if the budget allows it - doing both.

It doesn't make the show economically viable to only focus on the hobby. Families drive a lot of the popularity of an event and for the industry, it improves things when more can enter, thus bolstering the reptile industry's economy, but also allowing more of the public to appreciate the animals. The more the public approves of reptiles, the less likely you will see negativity towards them.

The issue can be easily addressed. As a first show we were totally happy with the crowds and the fact that they were "too much" at times, means that we have done what we set out for - to make an impact.




miki_k8 said:


> See it was 40 minutes by public transport for me each way, so it was quite a hike for not being able to see a lot. I agree with expecting more common species to see. I think having the displays integrated into the stalls would have been better for actually seeing the animals. I've been to the same hall in the past for tertiary expos and they seemed to pack a lot more people and stuff inside the same hall. Hopefully next year they can use the lecture rooms and find a bigger space to accommodate the crowds.



Stall set ups are the way they are mostly because the exhibitors wouldn't be able to afford the types of stalls that exhibitors for tertiary expos could afford. We will be looking at better ways to address viewing of animals, but it will be difficult as we need to consider the floor space we have and the costs involved to achieve it (both for the organiser and the exhibitor).

The space has a lot of flexibility and so we need to move ahead with it incrementally. I would imagine in order to hire out the entire space with all rooms, concourses, foyers and car park would be $50k+.

So maybe one day, but everything comes down to a budget vs benefit balance.




Pauls_Pythons said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way and I wasn't at RepX so it might not compare but every VHS Expo I have been to is the same and I thinks its bloody awesome. So long as the kids don't get upset with all the pushing and shoving that goes on why shouldn't they be there?
> Many of the stalls in Vic set up stuff especially for the kids to see & hold that they might not get chance elsewhere including a macaw and a young salty. I fear that if it wasn't for the family atmosphere many of the herpers wouldn't turn up either, and possibly some of the exhibitors.
> My 5 year old granddaughter has been to every VHS Expo since she was born and has attended 2 events interstate. She has an absolute ball and can talk you into a trance about her reptile adventures and her own animals.



We agree, kids need to be there. They are the future and to give them that chance to perhaps become the next reptile vet, influential breeders, or just all round good guy/gal, they need to be at these events. Everyone just needs to understand that an organiser has to put on a show and spread the risk by inviting a variety of audience types. If we only focused on hobbyists, the numbers would be too low, and you would never be able to sustain future attendance numbers since people will eventually leave the hobby or pass away.




miki_k8 said:


> Being the first year of RepX, I hope they can fix some of the things which weren't great this year and make it even better in the future. I understand your point, and agree. And it was wonderful seeing little kids learn about reptiles and bugs and how to treat them correctly. I found there was very little room though, and adding in prams and young children in the mix wasn't working well. Maybe VHS Expo could help a bit in terms of ideas and inspo for the future expos, sure would be great to be able to see a young salty!



The size of the venue is all we could afford, but we knew that it had capacity and the only reason why it felt cramped is that we got more than we were expecting - which is perfect.

We have so much to fix for next year but we found some key volunteers with real world experience in the areas we need to address and they will be consulting us on future shows, not just in Brisbane but around the country.


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## dragonlover1 (Apr 7, 2018)

[QUOTE="miki_k8, post: 2513161, member: 44783"



I wasn't really a fan to be honest. The actual expo itself was well done, with a good variety of animals and different stalls and many knowledgeable people all gathered in one place. However it was incredibly packed and the army of families who turned up with prams and small children was frustrating. In my eyes RepX should have been a hobbyist event, and I am all for the education of young kids about reptiles and all things similar (and it was wonderful seeing the Bug Ed people doing really well with this, targeting the kids), but it made the event almost not enjoyable. I barely saw any of the private animal collections because of the masses of people there and pushy parents wanting their small ones to get up the front, before pushing in themselves. Definitely some amazing animals, wish I got a chance to look properly.[/QUOTE]
Most expo's turn out this way,you have to expect families to come otherwise it would be a no show,and to be honest I prefer the kids! I love to educate them,seeing the smiles and the interest they show. I really only breed for the kids as there is no money in breeding dragons.They cost me way more than I get back and if the Govt. brings in the new regulations I will give up breeding altogether.Probably give up keeping reptiles as well ! Although I would hate to give up my passion and my greatest love in life.


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## Pauls_Pythons (Apr 7, 2018)

Buggster said:


> I wish there was a standard!



Maybe we could have standard size cows so my steaks are the same size. And how about the BS with the cooked chickens not being exactly the same size?


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## Yellowtail (Apr 8, 2018)

Stuart said:


> I got ya....
> 
> View attachment 323681


I'm training my mice to walk onto a conveyer into the gas chamber with different sizing holes they are pre-sorted ready for packaging.


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## Skinnerguy (Apr 9, 2018)

I don't know about a standard, but I do feel that some breeders use flash words like "Extra Jumbo" and "Colossal" to their advantage as well as using the labels "small" and "medium" instead of "small adult" and "medium adult" so that they can pass off weaners and hoppers as bigger than they seem. I also think the kind of reptiles you keep influences your own idea of rat sizes too. When we started breeding them, because I've kept Carpets, BHPs and Olives for my whole reptile keeping career, I felt like we couldn't breed and size rats big enough. Whereas I think fans of the Antaresia clan are going to be more inclined to look at smaller rats and think "ooh that's getting a bit big, must be a large adult," while I'm thinking "200g? I'll need to feed seven of those to make a decent meal, that's a juvenile, that is." I guess my point is that I adapt my sizing to big snakes, and I imagine there are rodent breeders do the same the other way, the only issue is when my "small" and their "small costs the same. 

Pinkies are difficult though, because they grow so quickly. There's a noticeable size difference between pinkies that were born an hour ago and pinkies that were born last night and you froze them this morning.


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