# Understanding Identification.



## Poggle (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi all,

I am making this thread to assist with people making I.D's of snakes. Have been alot of threads lately and people guessing at I.D's. So i am making this thread for it. Please feel free to post pics of snakes for peopleto try and figure out what it is. Please explain your reasons for guessing the snake. Experts please offer assistance in recognising not critisising. Thanks all.. Will post two pics up of my first snake of the day. Removed it from a work site. Got the call at work and had nothing but a zip bag. Excuse the photos, it was rather snappy and was trying to take photos on my phone whilst talking to another person on it... Not the best multi taker... But any ways guess away for this one... Should be too hard.




noone willing to have a crack
?


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## saratoga (Dec 19, 2011)

I'll have a crack but based on the info and photos provided that is all it would be!

Based on the size(I'm guessing its what I think is a standard sized one of these bags), general body shape(long and slender), form(roundish cross section), and lack of obvious patterning, and the fact you said it was rather snappy, I would HAZARD a guess as a sub-adult Eastern Brown. Could also be a very large Yellow faced whip snake(although they are not "snappy") but cant even see the head in the image.

I don't believe any one can provide any evidence to positively ID this from the photos and info alone that you have provided.


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## GeckoJosh (Dec 19, 2011)

LOL Id like to see even the "experts" to get this one right without guesssing


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## Poggle (Dec 19, 2011)

Thats the whole point Toga  I have clear photos, but this is for people to look at body, scales, description of attitude. etc.  Head is in first pic and is look right at you 



Geckoman said:


> LOL Id like to see even the "experts" to get this one right without guesssing


That was half the reason y i posted it  i love seeing people get in trouble for guessing. But that is what this is about. So let the guessing begin. Toga must say i am impressed with your diagnosis


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## gillsy (Dec 19, 2011)

Poggle said:


> Thats the whole point Toga  I have clear photos, but this is for people to look at body, scales, description of attitude. etc.  Head is in first pic and is look right at you
> 
> 
> That was half the reason y i posted it  i love seeing people get in trouble for guessing. But that is what this is about. So let the guessing begin. Toga must say i am impressed with your diagnosis



How can we do that, when you can't even see body scales?


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## Poggle (Dec 19, 2011)

ok obviously i can soom and see pics cleaer... i shall see if i can up load them better. Ill lgive location for hints ok  Found in a "house" in a "suburban" area. approx 5ft long. "Rather snappy" no.2 lol


Ok thread dying fast. Snake was relocated from Kingaroy. Stop trying to be perfect and sound technical people. This isnt a death if i touch it thread. I know the breed. It is for people who may see on this much of a snake to have a guess.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 19, 2011)

The pics are so crap it would be impossible to ID,might as well of taken the pic of the bag closed.


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## saratoga (Dec 19, 2011)

Poggle said:


> Head is in first pic and is look right at you



looks like the head is buried in the corner to me...I can't see any indication of a head!!!



Ramsayi said:


> The pics are so crap it would be impossible to ID,might as well of taken the pic of the bag closed.



very funny!!! lets play guess whats in the bag.

In fairness the photos are enough to eliminate a wide variety of species(even though they are crap images), but not good enough to provide conclusive ID


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## Poggle (Dec 19, 2011)

ok i admitted photo's were crap ... but as said earlier. it is for people to just guess.  like when people post a pic of one sacle and guess the herp 

Any ways it is a sub adult EB.

ok attempt with a cleaer photo 

another work place snake


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## Waterrat (Dec 19, 2011)

This is not criticism, just a factual observation: if you post a crap photo, don't expect positive and reliable ID. It's simply impossible and also in some cases dangerous. Some species are difficult to recognise in photos if the characteristic features aren't there, even when the pics themselves are of good quality. Guessing and little knowledge are dangerous.


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## Poggle (Dec 19, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> This is not criticism, just a factual observation: if you post a crap photo, don't expect positive and reliable ID. It's simply impossible and also in some cases dangerous. Some species are difficult to recognise in photos if the characteristic features aren't there, even when the pics themselves are of good quality. Guessing and little knowledge are dangerous.



all up for critisism. This is not a dangerous thing, as these are all snakes i have moved. I know the breeds. This is for those not dealing with elapids etc to see what shades of colour etc they may see when not seeing full snake. I dont mind people saying photo's are crap. I am first to admit it. But if you have better pics for people to pull apart and guess please do. I think alot on here could do with being educated. I am trying to find better pics, although i do not photograph reloacations really.


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## sarah_m (Dec 19, 2011)

The orange spots on the belly, (visible in pic2 of the second lot of photos) suggest it is an eastern brown


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## $NaKe PiMp (Dec 19, 2011)

very good sarah,thse spots can vary in colour also, and in rare cases be almost absent


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## -Peter (Dec 19, 2011)

I hope your insurance company never see that photo.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 19, 2011)

I fail to see how this thread is educational. From the two crappy photos i can tell you with absolute certainty that the animal is not a Gaboon Viper but does that really teach anyone anything? How about listing the diagnostics then posting clear photos to illustrate them?


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## Waterrat (Dec 19, 2011)

Echiopsis said:


> I fail to see how this thread is educational. From the two crappy photos i can tell you with absolute certainty that the animal is not a Gaboon Viper but does that really teach anyone anything? How about listing the diagnostics then posting clear photos to illustrate them?



I don't see much value in this either. There are thousands of good photos of snakes on the internet and in books & magazines with descriptions, why to learn from crappy ones? In books, you can see e.g. Eastern brown next to Coastal taipan next to a Whip snake, so you can clearly see them side by side and the similarities and differences are described. That's the way to learn to identify species.


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## hrafna (Dec 19, 2011)

after careful study i have determined that to be a snake!


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## Poggle (Dec 19, 2011)

alright close the thread then... i was going to use the thread to try and prevent all those wanting to guess on threads where people really need an id. But if it is to much of an issue clear it


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## SeaShell (Dec 19, 2011)

Why does everyone have to jump on someone everytime a different thread is posted? Geez, I think there are so many people who are scared to post something on here for fear that they will get their head ripped off! I reckon there are probably some really cool threads that havent been posted because of that.
I mean for all of you "experts" out there who can look at a clear picture and go "pfft thats easy, its a southern dwarf crowned snake" (because they saw the gold band on the head)... how many of them would know what it was if they we only shown a portion of the body. 
I mean, its a fun exercise isn't it? I looked at that picture and, yes I can tell a lot of snake species at a glance, but one of the common ones in a bad picture - This one made me look at it and think, ok no markings that you can see, looks like the body shape is not muscular enough to be a python, they scales are too big for a python, therefore it can't be a water or olive python. Difference in body width to head width suggests not a large scaly foot... etc goes on. I liked it, it makes you think a little harder on what you are looking at.

Thanks Poggle, was a good exercise, until it was ruined...


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## Echiopsis (Dec 19, 2011)

By all means, if you want to **** about and guess the snake from blurry photos, go for it. Just dont label it as educational, its not. 
Wild Aura, most of the people who guess at ID's dont even know enough to reason things out like you did in your third paragraph, need to walk before you can run.
An ID thread that details diagnostics, lists similar species that may cause confusion etc. would be great, unfortunately thats not what this thread is.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 19, 2011)

People should seriously calm the hell down. Poggle was only trying to educate and help people learn. Eciopsis i learnt something from it, therefore it was educational no matter what you think. Farrrk man some people do my head in. What harm did it cause any of the people that are whinging? If it was educational then good, if it wasnt then at least he tried. I honestly do not understand some of the up tight flops on here.


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## saratoga (Dec 19, 2011)

Gees. I thought it was a reasonable idea too although the photos were really a bit too bad to start with.

There's a lot to be said for being able to make a reasonable guess of a snakes identity just from a fleeting glimpse or part of it's body. Yes, it's dangerous to draw conclusive identity in these situations but you can certainly rule out many species. You can't always have a snake in your hands or a great photo to count scales etc. Too many people get caught up in fine details; for most of the common species you should be able to tell what they are from a brief glimpse of the snake.... it's something birdo's describe as jizz. There are plenty of photos posted on this forum where the snakes are easily identifiable from what you can see in the images and yet people still take wild guesses based on who knows what. A thread where people explain why they have made such a guess is far more valuable as a learning tool.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 19, 2011)

Central QLD, near water.


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

I would actually really appreciate it if someone could tell me how to pick the difference between the death addders. Particularly antarcticus and praelongus.

What makes these two praelongus, apart from their locations, Island off the Arnhem coast and Darwin respectively.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 19, 2011)

Suburban Perth, relocation. 1200mm.


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## Waterrat (Dec 19, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> If it was educational then good, if it wasnt then at least he tried.



You know what dude, in a fight, you can try as much as you can but if you come out second best it bloody hurts. Get real. Try to do number 2 six times a day - see how you go. So much for trying.


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## jedi_339 (Dec 19, 2011)

waruikazi said:


> I would actually really appreciate it if someone could tell me how to pick the difference between the death addders. Particularly antarcticus and praelongus.
> 
> What makes these two praelongus, apart from their locations, Island off the Arnhem coast and Darwin respectively.



No idea to be honest, but interesting second picture, was that the actual colouration or was that covered in mud or something?


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## waruikazi (Dec 19, 2011)

jedi_339 said:


> No idea to be honest, but interesting second picture, was that the actual colouration or was that covered in mud or something?



It was a little dirty and pretty dehydrated, it could have had a stuck shed too but they can be pretty grey like that here. They only flash their colours properly when you make them angry.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

As far as i know praelongus are more rugose than antarcticus with heavier keeling dorsally particularly on the head and neck. I havent seen praelongus but ive got a fair bit of experience with antarcticus, pyrrhus and wellsi. A antarcticus are quite smooth adders compared to the others.


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## sammy09 (Dec 20, 2011)

echiopsis said:


> central qld, near water.


i dare say keelback because of scales and being found near water


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## cwebb (Dec 20, 2011)

sammy09 said:


> i dare say keelback because of scales and being found near water




Haahahahahahaahahahahhahahaahahaha


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## SeaShell (Dec 20, 2011)

Echiopsis said:


> Suburban Perth, relocation. 1200mm.



Western brown or "gwardar"... length, location, shape of head, colouration


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

Echio and Michael i completely agree with you both, and pics were probably to crap to start with. But not all of us are always going to see perfect shots of snakes. I do appreciate those who saw what i was trying to do and i appreciate those who have better pics to post up.


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> You know what dude, in a fight, you can try as much as you can but if you come out second best it bloody hurts. Get real. Try to do number 2 six times a day - see how you go. So much for trying.



I understand your point i just dont get how the doing a number 2 six times a day compares to someone trying to educate and his method fails to be effective. If you try to do a good, and dont put it out the right way, doesnt mean people should jump down your throat. Anyways no point of arguing this, we'll agree to disagree.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 20, 2011)

Poggle good on you for trying to stimulate abit of fun for a few.
I guess a few here just might feel that snake id should be a thorough lesson and perhaps thats not a bad idea either even if completely on a different path that you had in mind.
Are you interested in instigating that? I am sure a lot of people will help you with it and it will certainly will be educational.


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## Waterrat (Dec 20, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> I understand your point i just dont get how the doing a number 2 six times a day compares to someone trying to educate and his method fails to be effective.



Doc, what I meant by this analogy is - sometimes no matter how hard you "try" it won't yield any sensible results. Looking at bad picture and "trying" to identify the snake can only result in wild guessing and I can't see that as being educational. Thorough lesson in IDing snakes as suggested by Dave is a much better way to educate but those lessons are readily available in books such as_ Compelte Guide to Reptiles of Australia _(and others) and on some herp sites, where you not only see good pics showing the identification characters (which is an essential part) but it also gives detailed description, key to species, etc.. My question is, should we replicate it here on the forum?

What has been proposed here would be fun to do and perhaps more useful if people would post pics of unusual colour morphs and explain what to look for. It has been done on previous page but it still leads to guessing. Lets face it, unless you're very experienced field herper, the best way to positively identify species is by following the ID protocol. i.e. keying out the specimen and that's impossible to do from a photograph.


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## -Peter (Dec 20, 2011)

I disagree Doc, if you try to stand on other peoples shoulders be prepared to be pulled down. The OP came came a cross as a bit of a wind up. 
I dont know if that was the intent or not. Perhaps a less didactic title and a bit less hubris.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 20, 2011)

I still don't understand what the op was trying to achieve.It's a bit like poking someone in the eyes then asking them to ID a critter.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 20, 2011)

Michael
I still think you can teach a lot of important and helpful ID characteristics that aren’t usually layed out in a comparative way in books that have Scalation keys for species. Like for example ID books will not point out that single sub-caudals indicate live bearers so rule out the following species etc. Or keeled scales rules out the following species and an odd shaped large dorsal scale means it can be only these particular species. I am sure you know what I am getting at.


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

I do apologise for any who i have offended it was not intentional. I was going to add more photo's of snakes in wild and ID these herps. It could have been done better but that was my purpose. Alot of people will look to these threads for assistance in ID'ing herps. I guess i thought i could assist fill that void. Fail. Anyways not offended by the least.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 20, 2011)

What about posting clear shots cropped down into small sections?


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

Ramsayi said:


> What about posting clear shots cropped down into small sections?



This was my intention.. As i said the orignal photos i posted were crap.. I tried to crop before it posted and i failed ( not to techinical person here) There was no "wind up" intended what so ever and i am more then happy for people to criticise me 

This was more my intention.




Michael and Dave i do appreciate your comment, both you guys are experience so i not disagree or debate.  But assistance in what can be offered is a wonderful thing  Dave thanks for your advice and Michael i do understand where you are coming from.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

sammy09 said:


> i dare say keelback because of scales and being found near water



Correct. Keelback or Freshwater Snake, Tropidonophis mairii. The keeling can be hard to make out in a photo but it is visible in the full body shot, particularly posteriorly. In the head shot the loreal scale is obvious between the nasal scale and the preocular identifying this as a Colubrid (Elapids lack a loreal scale with the nasal in direct contact with the preocular).


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Mr. Pog,

I believe your only real mistake was the title you gave the thread. It clearly created expectations amongst a number of users. I know that it did so for me. However, in reading the opening post I was made aware that you intentions were other than what I had expected. I might also point out that you used the term “assist” and you did not say educate – a significant difference.

I actually came across the thread before anyone had posted. I had a look at the photos and was annoyed at the poor quality. I then had a re-think about your post. The reason why I was annoyed was that I felt one could not give a 100% definite ID using those photos. At which point, the penny dropped. You were not asking for that – you talked about people who like to guess and those more in the know helping them out. So I kept my guess to myself and was going to contribute this morning.

Instead I had wade through a lot of unwarranted and unhelpful aggro. I note that it is often the same individuals with the daggers out and stabbing. It is disappointing that there is a percentage of individuals who cannot resolve their differences in a civil manner. You have made the effort to help others and they stand in judgement. Sending you resources to use or working with you to post material is what is required. Words are cheap. Harsh words cheapen.

Blue


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

Wild-Aura said:


> Western brown or "gwardar"... length, location, shape of head, colouration



Incorrect. Gwardar, Pseudonaja mengdeni only just creep into the northern outer suburbs. They tend to be lighter bodied (size not colour) animals with a smaller head. The whole, scattered brown/black scales arent shown by mengdeni in this region (or any region?). Gwardar generally are 17 scales around at mid body, this animal is not (not that you could tell from the photo). This isnt an easy species to pick from photo unless youve seen quite a few of them and Gwardar to compare. Theyre the most commonly encountered snake in the metro area by far.


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

Echiopsis said:


> Incorrect. Gwardar, Pseudonaja mengdeni only just creep into the northern outer suburbs. They tend to be lighter bodied (size not colour) animals with a smaller head. The whole, scattered brown/black scales arent shown by mengdeni in this region (or any region?). Gwardar generally are 17 scales around at mid body, this animal is not (not that you could tell from the photo). This isnt an easy species to pick from photo unless youve seen quite a few of them and Gwardar to compare. Theyre the most commonly encountered snake in the metro area by far.



Doing better then me when i first saw it i was thinking Dugite :S


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## -Peter (Dec 20, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> I note that it is often the same individuals with the daggers out and stabbing. It is disappointing that there is a percentage of individuals who cannot resolve their differences in a civil manner.
> Blue



I take it you are referring to those that have posted so far in the thread? Perhaps a rethink on your stance Blue. Most of the people who responded are among the most helpful and, to my mind, experienced on this site and I dont refer specifically to Dave and Michael.
Perhaps you are referring to other threads.

PS, give it another go Poggle.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

Poggle said:


> Doing better then me when i first saw it i was thinking Dugite :S



Thats the one, Pseudonaja affinis.


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

Echiopsis said:


> Thats the one, Pseudonaja affinis.



hoo rah. Not very often you see those markings about... i do like that variation though. Going by size of scales shape of head etc.

Here is another one then.

700mm. located with in the darling downs.


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

Poggle said:


> hoo rah. Not very often you see those markings about... i do like that variation though. Going by size of scales shape of head etc.



Dugites are 19 scales around at midbody in WA as opposed to Gwardar with 17. Dugites are larger, heavier animals though they can easily be confused while juveniles/ young adults. If you dont have the snake in hand for a scale count a combination of location, colour/ pattern, temperament and build will be needed for an ID. Even after seeing hundreds of both species i still get the occasional one where their distribution overlaps that requires a better look.


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## nathancl (Dec 20, 2011)

Am I really the only one who has the guts to say that the first lot of photos was clearly an eastern brown just on size, colouration, location of the OP and the head staring up at you in one of the pictures? 

yes the pics are not great but when ID'ing things you should not be expecting great pictures....... especially if the person taking the photos was to follow the other advice people love to give out of "dont touch the snake if you cant ID it"

Poggle I think the most important thing to educate people about on here is that you cant take anything anyone says for real.

Now for everyone who had a massive winge about the photos and said you cant 100% ID the snake in the first post, please tell me why its not 100% a EB and what other option there is......


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

nathancl said:


> Am I really the only one who has the guts to say that the first lot of photos was clearly an eastern brown just on size, colouration, location of the OP and the head staring up at you in one of the pictures?
> 
> yes the pics are not great but when ID'ing things you should not be expecting great pictures....... especially if the person taking the photos was to follow the other advice people love to give out of "dont touch the snake if you cant ID it"
> 
> ...



You missed the party by 24 hours, do you really want to drag this **** back up again now that the threads on track? Let it lie.....


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## nathancl (Dec 20, 2011)

sorry your right. I just wanted to point out that it was not a hard ID and the people wingeing about the quality of the photo are infact idiots not experts


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## Waterrat (Dec 20, 2011)

nathancl said:


> sorry your right. I just wanted to point out that it was not a hard ID and the people wingeing about the quality of the photo are infact idiots not experts



nathanci, unfortunately, you have completely missed the point. NO ONE winged about the quality of the photos, they are what they are. At last my comments were general in essence, not particular about these or other photos. You just didn't get the drift of some of the posts.
It's good that this thread evolved.



nathancl said:


> the people wingeing about the quality of the photo are infact idiots not experts



and who are you?


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## nathancl (Dec 20, 2011)

ok so obviously ontop of all your other faults that irritate me daily you also cant read!!! the photo quality was mentioned a few times throughout the thread and was stated that a 100% ID couldn't be made from them because of the quality.

my post was not aimed at any of your comments, (although thats helarious you would automatically assume this) suprisingly you haven't been your irrational and annoying self up until now it was more for those who said the ID was too hard or impossible when infact it was very obvious. 

not wanting to take the thread off topic just wanting to point out that it wasn't as bad as they made out.


edit: makes more sense why you even responded now...used the word expert....lol even funnier


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## Exotic_Doc (Dec 20, 2011)

ahhh everyone hit the bomb shelters * incoming rocket fire ahead*


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

Exotic_Doc said:


> ahhh everyone hit the bomb shelters * incoming rocket fire ahead*



*oh snap* Michael for the sake of this thread please dont go there lol


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## jedi_339 (Dec 20, 2011)

That would be a pale headed snake


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

jedi_339 said:


> That would be a pale headed snake



What are your reasons for this?


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## jedi_339 (Dec 20, 2011)

Poggle said:


> What are your reasons for this?



I caught one two weeks ago 

but the white stripe on the nape, the greyish colouration of the body and the dark spots on the back and sides of the neck/head.

a picture from the top would show the ''broad head'' nicely


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## Poggle (Dec 20, 2011)

lucky man to have the honor of catching one


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## jedi_339 (Dec 20, 2011)

we did a survey through uni going back a few years now and there's a spot out towards Dalby where we did a pale headed snake survey, caught 5 or 6 in one night, they are very cool snakes


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## ajandj (Dec 20, 2011)

Poggle said:


> ok i admitted photo's were crap ... but as said earlier. it is for people to just guess.  like when people post a pic of one sacle and guess the herp
> 
> Any ways it is a sub adult EB.
> 
> ...



Ok, so l'm here to learn how to identify a snake. I have no first hand experience. I know a head from a tail and that's about it. So my question is that you have obviously said it is an EB.. what is an EB


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## snake79 (Dec 20, 2011)

an eastern brown snake


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## jedi_339 (Dec 20, 2011)

here's an interesting colour variation for you to ID


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 20, 2011)

-Peter said:


> I take it you are referring to those that have posted so far in the thread? Perhaps a rethink on your stance Blue. Most of the people who responded are among the most helpful and, to my mind, experienced on this site and I dont refer specifically to Dave and Michael.
> Perhaps you are referring to other threads.
> 
> PS, give it another go Poggle.


Obviously the question was rhetorical. You have not waited for an answer. Instead, you’ve gone ahead as if I said “Yes” and indicated what I should do as a result. 

Excuse me! Where in hell did you come up with that statement? I said no such thing. I intimated no such thing. Perhaps you need to re-read a bit more carefully. Whatever, I do not take kindly to people putting words my mouth and then giving me advice about what I actually have not said. I would appreciate it if this did not happen again.

One of the points I was endeavouring to make is that there is no need to attack or insult someone because you disagree with what they have said or done. It is not nice and it is not necessary. Some individuals criticised what Poggle had done without resorting to these other measures. I agree that hoping that all those in disagreement could go about voicing their differences without the aggro or the rudeness is being idealistic under the current functioning of APS. However, if it serves to reduce it by even one, then I shall make mention of it when appropriate. The comment was clearly directed to only those responsible.

I would like to point out that you suggested the opening post might look like less of a wind-up if it were a little less “hubris”. That is a particularly offensive use of the word. Would you be happy if I described your question as hubris?

A question for you... Is it acceptable to be rude or aggressive towards someone, without good reason, if you are highly experienced and have a well established reputation for helping?

Blue

I know!


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## Waterrat (Dec 20, 2011)

Oh dear! 

Anyway, here is one from me to make it up for all the rude posters and idiots.
The first two pics are of one species, the other two of different species. What are they and why?


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## Tassie97 (Dec 20, 2011)

bottom ones are slatey greys  ,the sheen and light colour underneath

did i get it?


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## Red-Ink (Dec 20, 2011)

No idea what they are Michael... but from the clear pics labial scales are different so is the tail shape.


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## Waterrat (Dec 20, 2011)

The top one is a Small-eyed snake (Elapid) and bottom one is a Slaty-grey snake (Colubrid). They look very similar and had the Small-eyed snake sloughed before I took the shots, it would have been equally shiny as the latter. Slatys always have creamy coloured belly whilst Small-eyeds can have variable ventrals ranging from creamy to grey to orange. They are sometimes mistaken for juvenile RBBs, especially up here, the northern RBB morph doesn't have the bright red belly.

To my earlier comments about crappy photos; these are eye-pleasing pics bit still crap for identification purposes as they don't show the belly scales clearly and the pre-slough look of the Small-eyed doesn't help either. Also the head shapes are slightly different.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 20, 2011)

Good pics that highlight something so important so well but isn't yet mentioned. I wouldn't mind using those shots myself Michael for a powerpoint presentation I am curently working on if its okay with you.


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## jedi_339 (Dec 20, 2011)

No-one has attempted to ID my picture yet, so I'll give you some more info, found within South East Queensland, I do love the colouration of this individual, he's a nice specimen

Also Michael, very nice picture comparison between the small eyed and slatey grey, they get mis-identified as juvenile RBB down here in the South east too, I''ve never seen a specimen with such a light coloured belly


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## Waterrat (Dec 20, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Good pics that highlight something so important so well but isn't yet mentioned. I wouldn't mind using those shots myself Michael for a powerpoint presentation I am curently working on if its okay with you.



Go for it Dave. And reveal the secret about the unmentioned highlight. I think I know what it is but over to you.



jedi_339 said:


> No-one has attempted to ID my picture yet, so I'll give you some more info, found within South East Queensland, I do love the colouration of this individual, he's a nice specimen



EB?


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## jedi_339 (Dec 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> EB?



correct, I just like that photo because he shows some nice colours


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## Tassie97 (Dec 20, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> and bottom one is a Slaty-grey snake (Colubrid).


 Woop Woop!


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 20, 2011)

PilbaraPythons said:


> Good pics that highlight something so important so well but isn't yet mentioned. I wouldn't mind using those shots myself Michael for a powerpoint presentation I am curently working on if its okay with you.



Please share as the only thing I can think of is the loreal being obvious in one pic, however it's already been mentioned.


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## SeaShell (Dec 20, 2011)

Echiopsis said:


> Incorrect. Gwardar, Pseudonaja mengdeni only just creep into the northern outer suburbs. They tend to be lighter bodied (size not colour) animals with a smaller head. The whole, scattered brown/black scales arent shown by mengdeni in this region (or any region?). Gwardar generally are 17 scales around at mid body, this animal is not (not that you could tell from the photo). This isnt an easy species to pick from photo unless youve seen quite a few of them and Gwardar to compare. Theyre the most commonly encountered snake in the metro area by far.



Lol, I just looked at the photo again, and read this post and laughed because I was thinking dugite as the animal (the brown found in suburban Perth) but the gwardar kept popping up in my head. I think I was confusing myself. But anyways, I would have been wrong either way. It does look like the dugite... although in saying that, this is pulling knowledge from 15 years ago living in Perth, then moving inland 400km, where western browns are everywhere... I think I should keep my mouth shut lol. 
So P. mengdeni? That ones new? What is the common name? I've got to keep up with this stuff lol


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## waruikazi (Dec 20, 2011)

The tongue. Rbb have a black one.



Elapidae1 said:


> Please share as the only thing I can think of is the loreal being obvious in one pic, however it's already been mentioned.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 20, 2011)

Who mentioned the loreal scale? I must not have read that.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Echiopsis, on an earlier ID 1st page.

Here's one 
Scales 14 at midbody, found in SW of W..A.


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## PilbaraPythons (Dec 20, 2011)

But the question was what are the 2 species and why in regards to the Slatey grey and the Eastern small eyed, this is why anyone reading Echiopsis earlier post should have answered it.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Yes


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 20, 2011)

Misleading backround Elapidae, seeing as pulchs are usually less sand and repes are usually more sandy.  (Trying not to totally spoil the fun for those who don't know).


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## Echiopsis (Dec 20, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Misleading backround Elapidae, seeing as pulchs are usually less sand and repes are usually more sandy.  (Trying not to totally spoil the fun for those who don't know).



Shot was taken in habitat, both species can be found in either habitat in some areas


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 20, 2011)

1[SUP]st[/SUP] pics: The head appeared to be mostly hidden under the corner of the bag and I could only just make out half a dozen scale or so. Apparent size was around half a metre which in combination with a grey or grey-brown colour, rules out most small elapids. You do on rare occasions get unmarked keelbacks even rarer with roughies but there were no keels evident on the visible scales. The body was too stout for a whip snake but more particularly, the tail narrowed quickly after the vent and was not very long. Whips narrow very gradually and have a very, very thin tail. 

2[SUP]nd[/SUP] pic. As stated.

3[SUP]rd[/SUP] pic. Keels. Loreal scale. Upper labials under eye edged with black. Angle of jaw has a distinct upward curve (smile). 

4[SUP]th[/SUP] pic. Suburban Perth. Gwardars occurs north of a lone from Yanchep to Waneroo to Ellenbrook through Swan Valley then north-east into the hills. The rostral scale is broader than Western Browns and the front of the head is slightly squarer. It is irregularly spotted – the other name for Dugites is Spotted Brown Snake. 

5[SUP]th[/SUP] pic Elapid as no loreal. Red on latero-ventral scales which have a black posterior margin.


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## Wookie (Dec 20, 2011)

Wow, surprising people can be jumping on him for the poor quality photos. Do you always have a perfect view of a snake out in the field to look for the finer features that you find in a 20MP photograph?


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 20, 2011)

GeckPhotographer said:


> Misleading backround Elapidae, seeing as pulchs are usually less sand and repes are usually more sandy.  (Trying not to totally spoil the fun for those who don't know).



As Echiopsis has said shot was taken in habitat. It was found under a piece of fallen blackboy (and photographed under it) 
I was surprised by its location


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## Australis (Dec 20, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> 5[SUP]th[/SUP] pic Elapid as no loreal. Red on latero-ventral scales which have a black posterior margin.
> 
> Furina dunmalli.



What post is this animal in?


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 20, 2011)

> As Echiopsis has said shot was taken in habitat. It was found under a piece of fallen blackboy (and photographed under it)
> I was surprised by its location





> Shot was taken in habitat, both species can be found in either habitat in some areas


Know an environmental consultant from Perth that reckons even in the hills on harder soils he almost always gets the repens and it's not till he's in areas that are almost totally stone that he gets the pulchella in material between two stones and around the base of stones. That said I've never seen either and I'm simply going off what hearsay and books say they usually inhabit, and everyone with half an inch of experience knows not to tell a reptile where it's found. 

If you didn't give a midbody count I would've said repens for sure.


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## Waterrat (Dec 20, 2011)

Wookie said:


> Wow, surprising people can be jumping on him for the poor quality photos. Do you always have a perfect view of a snake out in the field to look for the finer features that you find in a 20MP photograph?



People can and people should if the pic is not good enough to make a positive ID - INCLUDING MY PICS I POSTED AND CONFESSED THAT THEY AREN'T GOOD ID SHOTS.
Isn't it bit unreasonable to post a poor quality pic and expect people to ID the animal? 
No one gets blasted for poor photography as long as they don't expect miracles when it comes to ID.


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## Elapidae1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Geck, The few A. pulchella I've seen in Perth metro (hills area) have all been found in stony laterite soil areas, the one pictured was found a couple of hours south of Perth in low lying sandy soil amongst Blackboys, Banksia, eucalyptus with some swampy areas.

I don't think the bronze over the dorsal area is seen in A. repens, at least not in the repens I have come across.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 20, 2011)

Credit where credit is due. It is great to see the positive attitude and help that has developed and the robust discussions without harassing or belittling. Definitely makes one want to join in.

Blue


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## GeckPhotographer (Dec 21, 2011)

> Geck, The few A. pulchella I've seen in Perth metro (hills area) have all been found in stony laterite soil areas, the one pictured was found a couple of hours south of Perth in low lying sandy soil amongst Blackboys, Banksia, eucalyptus with some swampy areas.
> 
> I don't think the bronze over the dorsal area is seen in A. repens, at least not in the repens I have come across.



Both very interesting. For the second point at least that gives a definite advantage in identification to those that have observed the animal regularly, which I obviously haven't all good info to store away.


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## Poggle (Dec 21, 2011)

Ok here is another one. 

850mm Victoria


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 28, 2011)

I shall not spoil others fun - an excellent photo.

Blue


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## Renenet (Dec 28, 2011)

Poggle said:


> Ok here is another one.
> 
> 850mm Victoria



Austrelaps superbus (Lowland copperhead). Why? The reddish sides made me think copperhead. In more detail, the scale patterns on the head that I can see are very similar to other A. superbus, as are the eyes.


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## Waterrat (Dec 28, 2011)

Also the white (light colour) edges of supralabials and overall leathery appearance. The scales are not as overlapping as in most other elapids, showing the skin between the scales.


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## Poggle (Dec 28, 2011)

correct and correct


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## eipper (Dec 29, 2011)

this one is not that tough but what makes it what it is and what separates it from the other two species of the genus it can occur alongside

Mt Crosby, Queensland


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## Renenet (Dec 29, 2011)

eipper said:


> this one is not that tough but what makes it what it is and what separates it from the other two species of the genus it can occur alongside
> 
> Mt Crosby, Queensland



I'm going with Delma torquata because it looks exactly the same as the photo in A Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia. 

Is Delma tincta one of the species it could be mistaken for? Torquata is shorter than tincta, looks stockier and the patterns on the head and neck are much more prominent. The body colour is different too.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 29, 2011)

_D. plebia _is the other possibility. The bands on D. torquata and D. tincta can look almost identical, except for one critical difference...


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## Waterrat (Dec 29, 2011)

I throw this in for a good measure.


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## eipper (Dec 29, 2011)

Delma plebia 






Delma tincta

both torquata and plebia have 2 pre anal scales.....and tincta have 3

torquata have a marbled throat (apparently it can be used for identification of individual specimens)

The shot up the top was indeed a torquata.


Cheers,
Scott


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 29, 2011)

I think I have an advantage with that one *Watterat*.

_*Scott*_, It was the markings on the throat I was referring to as they were partly visible.

Blue


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## Renenet (Dec 29, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> I throw this in for a good measure.



Demansia torquata (collared whipsnake). What does "torquata" mean?

Now I have to figure out how to tell the difference between "legless" lizards and snakes. Ear holes would be one, as would the tongue, but sometimes they're not showing or not clear in pictures. Does anyone know any other ways?


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 29, 2011)

_*Renenet*_,
Differences between Pygopods and snakes, other than ear opening (if present) are...
The tongue is flat and broad, not forked.
There are remnant rear limb flaps (often held close to the body and difficult to see).
The ventral scales are not broad and expanded but are similar in size to other body scales.
The tail is at least as long as the body and often much longer, whereas snakes have a much shorter tail, nowhere near as long as he body.

And "torquata" means "collared" usually in reference to markings around the neck.

Blue


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## Waterrat (Dec 29, 2011)

f...!


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## -Peter (Dec 29, 2011)

Waterrat said:


> f...!



Haha, geriatric moment there Michael.


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## Waterrat (Dec 29, 2011)

-Peter said:


> Haha, geriatric moment there Michael.



Yeah. That happens at my age.
I was thinking about eye lids.


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## Renenet (Dec 29, 2011)

Bluetongue1 said:


> _*Renenet*_,
> Differences between Pygopods and snakes, other than ear opening (if present) are...
> And "torquata" means "collared" usually in reference to markings around the neck.



Thanks, Blue.


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## Bluetongue1 (Dec 29, 2011)

The unknown is a Delma... unless you are finding it a bore.


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## saratoga (Jan 1, 2012)

Poggle said:


> Ok here is another one.
> 
> 850mm Victoria




Yes its definately a Lowland Copperhead...how do I know?? Because I TOOK THE PHOTO!!!

Would have been nice to acknowledge you were using someone elses image you pinched from the web!


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## raywise (Jan 11, 2012)

*What is this little fellow we just snapped?*

Hello all, I hope this is ok to post here. Could someone more knowledgeable then me identify this little fellow we just found slithering around the house. Approx 2feet long, very slender, patterned brown. I followed him around the house and then he slithered sideways off the verandah and into the garden. We get a few around here at night, especially when it is stinking hot like it is now, (have to remember to stop walking outside without turning on lights like I always do!)

Kind Regards
Ray


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## waruikazi (Jan 11, 2012)

That's a keeelback champ. Not dangerous at all.


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## raywise (Jan 11, 2012)

Cool, thanks. We've had a couple of Keelbacks coming up from the "swamp" down the back before, although they were much larger than this one. He'll have fun in our garden,


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