# Why exotic reptiles should be banned



## pinefamily (Nov 17, 2016)

https://theconversation.com/alien-i...eptile trade is a serious threat to Australia


----------



## Iguana (Nov 17, 2016)

Whenever I see articles like this I can't help but think of cane toads.


----------



## kingofnobbys (Nov 17, 2016)

Let's not limit this "banning" to exotic reptiles, how about exotic mammals, fish, and yes birds too.


----------



## Smittiferous (Nov 20, 2016)

So we should expect you on a plane back to Africa at the first available opportunity then? Go on, lead by example...


----------



## pinefamily (Nov 20, 2016)

Exotic fish and birds are banned already. What there is in Australia have all been bred here.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## GeckoJosh (Nov 20, 2016)

pinefamily said:


> Exotic fish and birds are banned already. What there is in Australia have all been bred here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Live fish are legally imported all the time, you just need to apply for the appropriate permits (probably the same for birds but im not 100%)
http://www.agriculture.gov.au/import/goods/live-animals/importing-live-fish-aus


----------



## krusty (Dec 2, 2016)

That is the same with most exotic reptiles in Australia.


pinefamily said:


> Exotic fish and birds are banned already. What there is in Australia have all been bred here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


----------



## GBWhite (Dec 3, 2016)

Despite Biosecurities best efforts a number of exotic reptiles have been able to establish themselves in Australia.

https://invasives.org.au/wp-content...ecurity-failures-red-eared-slider-turtles.pdf

http://www.pestsmart.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Ramphotyphlops_braminus_270410.pdf

https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/__data/a...687/IPA-Asian-House-Gecko-Risk-Assessment.pdf

From what I've been told it appears that the illegal importation of exotic reptiles is alive and well in Australia and it seems that you can get just about anything you want if you have the contacts.

The main threat to our herpetofauna through importation of exotic reptiles and fish is the establishment of viruses of iridovirus origin (ie: ranavirus, herpesvirus, turtlevirus) that could have a defining effect on wild populations. I believe that another threat is the past and present practice of genetically modifying these viruses in an attempt to combat invasive species such as cane toads, gambusia fish and european carp.

George.


----------



## hilly (Dec 6, 2016)

The comparison between imported reptiles and cane toads is flawed. Toads are able to out-compete natives because they're poisonous at every stage of their life, and breed in prolific numbers. The vast majority of imported reptiles lack the reproductive biology to replicate the "success" of toads.


----------



## Iguana (Dec 6, 2016)

hilly said:


> The comparison between imported reptiles and cane toads is flawed. Toads are able to out-compete natives because they're poisonous at every stage of their life, and breed in prolific numbers. The vast majority of imported reptiles lack the reproductive biology to replicate the "success" of toads.


 
I used them as an example to show that an introduced species can cause a huge amount of damage, in that it wasn't supposed to be in the ecosystem in the first place. If we introduced imported reptiles, many of the popular species such as Boas or Tegus could probably survive and reproduce in the tropics. Destroying native flora and fauna.


----------



## hilly (Dec 6, 2016)

And I'm saying they're a poor example because they have unusual characteristics that enabled them to be very successful, the vast majority of other exotics simply don't have those advantages. Other exotics may survive and reproduce but they likely won't have anywhere near the impact on an ecosystem that toads have had, they'd most likely be just another competitor for food.


----------



## pinefamily (Dec 7, 2016)

Any introduced animal (or plant) can have an impact on the native ecosystem. As "another competitor for food", any introduced reptile will impact the ecosystem, just by reducing prey numbers. The same sort of thing can happen in an extreme drought or bushfire, but prey numbers will increase again afterwards, unlike in the case of exotic speices.


----------



## hilly (Dec 7, 2016)

No doubt about that, but very few animals would have the same effect as toads, which obviously have had an extraordinary negative impact- that's why I said they are a very poor comparative example of the impact exotics can have.


----------



## Iguana (Dec 7, 2016)

Yes, as Pinefamily said, they (exotics) become another competitor for food, as a boa will eat the same food as a Carpet python. If a large enough number finds it way into the wild, they will also eat other native animals like possums, small koalas and wombats, reducing those numbers. 
While cane toads have their poison as an advantage for survival, they kill a large amount of native wildlife and even pets too, Introduced species would do the same, just without the poison. 
I'm saying that while cane toads do a huge amount of damage to the ecosystem and swarm everywhere, introduced species prey on the larger wildlife, and would probably end up destroying the ecosystem the same way, ie if the cane toads kills a small croc, a boa would eat it. 
It's not just 1 boa vs 1 cane toad I'm talking about, if exotics were allowed to be imported, the amount of exotic animals dumped into the wild would be huge, and since Australia has a variety of environments which would allow for a variety of different exotic reptiles to survive and thrive.


----------



## pinefamily (Dec 7, 2016)

You only have to look at the Florida Everglades as an example of exotic reptiles and the problems they cause.


----------



## hilly (Dec 7, 2016)

You are both completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. If you ranked animals on a scale of 1-10 based on negative impact toads would likely be 8-10, the vast majority of other reptiles would be 2-3. Most other reptiles simply lack the reproductive capabilities to reproduce in massive numbers and also lack the poison to kill off larger animals (which is where toads have such a massive affect).


----------



## Iguana (Dec 7, 2016)

As I said, large reptiles like boas, burmese pythons, retics etc, could quite easily take down larger animals, such as crocs and kangaroos, what they lack in poison they make up for in strength. These same animals also have quite large clutches of eggs, not as many as cane toads yes, but they are much more likely to make it to adulthood, or at least to a large enough size to start eating wildlife. Furthermore, there are several animals that can endure it's poison and survive, such as the Keelback and Snapping Turtle. An animal that may survive the poison will not survive an encounter with a large boa/burm/retic. I'm not saying that cane toads don't have a devastating impact on the environment, that is why I compared them to exotics in the first place, what I am saying is that many people underestimate the implications of allowing these exotic reptiles into our fragile ecosystem.


----------



## pinefamily (Dec 7, 2016)

No misunderstanding at all. Cane toads are by far one of the worst introduced species, right up there with foxes and rabbits.
What Iguana and I are saying is exotic species can do a lot of damage in our ecosystems when released in the wild. It wouldn't take much for 2 or 3 boas to start reproducing in tropical areas to create a problem.
Even mankind, by spreading into previously untouched areas, is wreaking havoc on ecosystems around Australia.


----------



## hilly (Dec 8, 2016)

Iguana said:


> As I said, large reptiles like boas, burmese pythons, retics etc, could quite easily take down larger animals, such as crocs and kangaroos, what they lack in poison they make up for in strength. These same animals also have quite large clutches of eggs, not as many as cane toads yes, but they are much more likely to make it to adulthood, or at least to a large enough size to start eating wildlife. Furthermore, there are several animals that can endure it's poison and survive, such as the Keelback and Snapping Turtle. An animal that may survive the poison will not survive an encounter with a large boa/burm/retic. I'm not saying that cane toads don't have a devastating impact on the environment, that is why I compared them to exotics in the first place, what I am saying is that many people underestimate the implications of allowing these exotic reptiles into our fragile ecosystem.



Taking down one animal (a roo for example) as a food item would be no different to the eco system than another scrubby taking one. The problem with toads is that they kill many animals (not just one or two) that are much larger, not just prey items. Toads can produce between 8,000-35,000 young twice per year, versus 25-100 for Burmese pythons. Toads are poisonous right off the bat, small pythons are another food item for predators in the ecosystem- this is the biggest difference and why I said it's a poor comparison. On one hand the roads are killing animals that try to eat them, thus making more of an impact, whereas pythons in this example are actually a food source for the predators thusly reducing their impact and making them LESS likely to make it to adulthood than toads.

I'm not denying exotics would have an impact, I actually said they WOULD. I'm saying comparing a Pythons impact to the impact toads have had isn't realistic. If you can't understand that then exotic reptiles are the least of your problems. I won't be replying again because I can't put it in more plain terms.


----------



## pinefamily (Dec 8, 2016)

Most native wildlife have come to realize that the toads are poisonous and have come to avoid them from what I've read. One exception being the Mertens water monitor. Their numbers are dwindling in the wild, from eating the toads.


----------



## Nero Egernia (Dec 9, 2016)

Irrespective on how much damage a particular species has actually caused or has the potential to cause, exotic reptiles and amphibians have no place in Australia. There's no telling what kind of impact a species can have on Australia's ecosystems until it has escaped and established itself. It's not just the animal, but the diseases it may be carrying. I'm thinking of chytrid fungus. Prevention is better than cure. I'm saying this as a person who loves and admires exotics. In a perfect world where exotics were clear of diseases and there was no way of them escaping into the wild, then I don't see the problem. I would probably keep a few exotics in a heartbeat. But can we trust people to contain their animals, or worse, trust them not to release their animals into the wild when they no longer wanted to keep them? I've been to islands, some of a decent size such as Rottnest, some just a tiny spit of land, where there were no exotics of any kind. I can't describe it, but it's something remarkable being able to visit a pristine ecosystem that has not been decimated by introduced vermin. Do we really want to risk what still remains?


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 12, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Any introduced animal (or plant) can have an impact on the native ecosystem. As "another competitor for food", any introduced reptile will impact the ecosystem, just by reducing prey numbers. The same sort of thing can happen in an extreme drought or bushfire, but prey numbers will increase again afterwards, unlike in the case of exotic speices.


I believe tortoises should be allowed in Australia, they would not out-compete anything.


----------



## Imported_tuatara (Nov 12, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> I believe tortoises should be allowed in Australia, they would not out-compete anything.


 have you seen how much they eat?!?!


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 12, 2017)

Imported_tuatara said:


> have you seen how much they eat?!?!


Nowhere near as much as camels, foxes, cats, rabbits, cane toads, carp, redfin... I could go on butttt.... There's no direct competitor for tortoises in Australia.


----------



## Bluetongue1 (Nov 12, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> I believe tortoises should be allowed in Australia, they would not out-compete anything.


 With appropriate quarantine tortoises could be certified as disease free. So why not?

As far as having no direct competitors, I disagree. Any herbivore or omnivore, whether vertebrate or invertebrate, is a potential competitor. There is also the possibility for selective grazing by tortoises, which may alter the species composition of a given habitat (= reduced biodiversity).

I will say that of all the reptile groups, tortoises are probably the easiest to keep contained. The problem here is not the tortoises, but humans and theft. So unfortunately they would have to be kept in highly secured enclosures.

So while I understand where you are coming from and truly sympathise, it just ain’t gunna happen!


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 12, 2017)

Bluetongue1 said:


> With appropriate quarantine tortoises could be certified as disease free. So why not?
> 
> As far as having no direct competitors, I disagree. Any herbivore or omnivore, whether vertebrate or invertebrate, is a potential competitor. There is also the possibility for selective grazing by tortoises, which may alter the species composition of a given habitat (= reduced biodiversity).
> 
> ...


I firmly believe there is an available niche for tortoises in Australia, they would not out-compete/threaten anything on this continent, I agree they would be the best candidate for integration and I also agree that it will never happen but if it did, we would never ever be overrun by a rogue feral tortoise population, nor would any species face extinction because of them. It would be awesome to keep them in captivity here but hey, we can't have everything. It's a shame Australia has no native tortoises. My wife is from South Africa and grew up with Leopard Tortoises living and breeding in her back yard every year. Beautiful creatures.


----------



## Yellowtail (Nov 12, 2017)

Exotic pets were fairly common in Perth in the 1950's, I used to walk past a house on my way to the tram stop where they had a pair of tortoises that looked like scaled down Galapagos, the lady let us feed them carrots. South Perth was infested with Squirrels that were loose in the zoo and a few people had monkeys. Often wonder what became of them.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

Yellowtail said:


> Exotic pets were fairly common in Perth in the 1950's, I used to walk past a house on my way to the tram stop where they had a pair of tortoises that looked like scaled down galapagos, the lady let us feed them carrots. South Perth was infested with Squirrels that were loose in the zoo and a few people had monkeys. Often wonder what became of them.


You and your generation have lived, like my mum always said, in the best era this country ever saw. I still remember the day the news broke about a giant Alligator Snapping turtle being found in a drain below the city streets in Sydney, thought to have been possibly from a batch stolen in 1979... Who knows what's still out there! 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/nov/29/patrickbarkham

Then in 2014 a local freshwater turtle expert, Darren Fielder, here in Toowoomba discovered a Chinese Stripe-necked turtle where I go trapping feeders for my own turtles, just down the road from my place... 
http://www.redleafenviro.com.au/new...found-in-the-toowoomba-waterbird-habitat.aspx


----------



## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> I firmly believe there is an available niche for tortoises in Australia, they would not out-compete/threaten anything on this continent, I agree they would be the best candidate for integration and I also agree that it will never happen but if it did, we would never ever be overrun by a rogue feral tortoise population, nor would any species face extinction because of them.



Sorry Kev but I have to disagree. Here's a few links relating to REST and I'll draw your attention to the first link (I attached this in the Feral Pet Invasion Across NSW you posted the other day. don't know if you familiarized yourself with it when I did but if you didn't it's worth a gander).

https://invasives.org.au/wp-content...ecurity-failures-red-eared-slider-turtles.pdf

https://www.business.qld.gov.au/ind...sts/invasive-animals/restricted/slider-turtle

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/amphibians-and-reptiles/red-eared-slider-animal-pest-alert?page=0,2

https://www.pestsmart.org.au/red-eared-slider-turtles-in-australia-and-new-zealand/

Cheers,

GW.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> Sorry Kev but I have to disagree. Here's a few links relating to REST and I'll draw your attention to the first link (I attached this in the Feral Pet Invasion Across NSW you posted the other day. don't know if you familiarized yourself with it when I did but if you didn't it's worth a gander).
> 
> https://invasives.org.au/wp-content...ecurity-failures-red-eared-slider-turtles.pdf
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges... Terrestrial tortoises are not turtles mate. We have 37 known species of turtle in direct competition with RES... Show me what tortoises would compete with? The niche is empty.


----------



## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2017)

Fair enough...wasn't thinking should have realised you were talking about tortoises and not turtles. However, they may not pose competition but the threat of introducing disease should be a consideration.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

GBWhite said:


> Fair enough...wasn't thinking should have realised you were talking about tortoises and not turtles. However, they may not pose competition but the threat of introducing disease should be a consideration.


Of course mate, all manner of quarantining should be observed and if done, anything could be successfully introduced but the laws are tightening not getting more flexible... When you consider for example, Western Australia won't even allow anything that's not endemic to their state into their state, or, Tasmania won't allow turtles, period... for fear of threatening their trout industry... (LOL) but seriously... there's ZERO chance of imported reptiles ever being legalised here for the every day average enthusiast. I guess this makes going to the zoo regularly a necessity. LOL


----------



## pinefamily (Nov 13, 2017)

Our colonial ancestors probably thought the same about the rabbits and foxes, empty niches. Pity they didn't get advice from our indigenous ancestors first.



Yellowtail said:


> Exotic pets were fairly common in Perth in the 1950's, I used to walk past a house on my way to the tram stop where they had a pair of tortoises that looked like scaled down Galapagos, the lady let us feed them carrots. South Perth was infested with Squirrels that were loose in the zoo and a few people had monkeys. Often wonder what became of them.



Haven't you seen Planet of the Apes, Yellowtail? Those monkeys are probably living further up the Swan River.


----------



## Yellowtail (Nov 13, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Haven't you seen Planet of the Apes, Yellowtail? Those monkeys are probably living further up the Swan River.


Hmm, there are some strange people up in the hills. Interested to know if they ever got rid of the Squirrels, they were in every tree in South Perth around the Zoo.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> Our colonial ancestors probably thought the same about the rabbits and foxes, empty niches. Pity they didn't get advice from our indigenous ancestors first.


I believe they were actually brought here for sporting purposes.


----------



## pinefamily (Nov 13, 2017)

That was the empty niche.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

pinefamily said:


> That was the empty niche.


Ok... and terrestrial tortoises would compete directly with?? Lol don't worry, the brightest minds in this country's turtle and tortoise field have already deduced that tortoises would be in a niche of their own here... but those who make the laws will never bend. It's just another day at the office.


----------



## Scutellatus (Nov 13, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Ok... and terrestrial tortoises would compete directly with?? Lol don't worry, the brightest minds in this country's turtle and tortoise field have already deduced that tortoises would be in a niche of their own here... but those who make the laws will never bend. It's just another day at the office.


Just like the brightest minds at the time decided that importing cane toads was a good idea.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Just like the brightest minds at the time decided that importing cane toads was a good idea.


Sigh, so now your comparing something that has the ability to lay 2 million eggs twice per year with no natural predators to something that breeds successfullly 3 times in 20 years with a less than 1% survival rate... Hmm you need to think a teeny bit harder... tortoises will not overrun Australia my friend... No matter how you try to envision it happening. They can't even overpopulate their own native countries thanks to their low fecundity and high mortality.


----------



## Scutellatus (Nov 13, 2017)

Aussiepride83 said:


> Sigh, so now your comparing something that has the ability to lay 2 million eggs twice per year with no natural predators to something that breeds 3 times in 20 years with a less than 1% survival rate... Hmm you need to think a teeny bit harder... tortoises will not overrun Australia my friend... No matter how you try to envision it happening. They can't even overpopulate their own native countries thanks to their low fecundity and high mortality.


Which tortoises only breed three times in thirty years? A quick look just now brought up three that can reproduce yearly. One of these laying up to 20 eggs each month for 7 months of the year.

Just to clarify also, cane toad females can lay between 8000-35000 eggs a time and will usually breed twice a year.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

Scutellatus said:


> Which tortoises only breed three times in thirty years? A quick look just now brought up three that can reproduce yearly. One of these laying up to 20 eggs each month for 7 months of the year.


Less than 1% survival rate of turtles and tortoises world wide... damn! 20 eggs, how many survive to actually hatch, let alone adulthood, that's close to cane toads... seriously, your argument is flawed. It's fact that tortoises could exist in this country with no detrimental effects, if anything they too would be predated upon and wiped out.

Just to clarify, our native turtles lay more than 20 eggs twice per season... hence they're all endangered. Hmm...


----------



## Pauls_Pythons (Nov 13, 2017)

Regardless of any argument they are an exotic?
Can anyone guarantee 100% there will be zero impact?

I think not. I love exotics but the problem isn't the exotics it's the people that keep them.
They could carry any number of as yet unknown pathogens that could be disastrous for Australian wildlife if/when they are released because the owner got bored with it.


----------



## GBWhite (Nov 13, 2017)

Pauls_Pythons said:


> Regardless of any argument they are an exotic?
> Can anyone guarantee 100% there will be zero impact?
> 
> I think not. I love exotics but the problem isn't the exotics it's the people that keep them.
> They could carry any number of as yet unknown pathogens that could be disastrous for Australian wildlife if/when they are released because the owner got bored with it.



Totally agree PP.

I appreciate your passion Kev but Bluetongue makes some pretty logical points in his post. Besides there is also the risk of introducing disease. I remember reading that a large number do host iridovirus and herpesvirus and I also recall reading an article published in the US National Library of Medicine titled "A tortoise- infecting picornavirus expands the host range of the family Picornaviridae" published online in 2015 when i was researching viruses that affected turtles. Picornaviruses can effect mammals and the first picornavirus identified was Foot and Mouth disease

I think the point that's trying to be made here is why risk introducing them here. Nothing to gain but a hell of a lot to loose if something went wrong.


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

I don't debate those risks, my argument was simply if done correctly, and without risk of disease, tortoises would not outcompete any native animal.


----------



## Ashleyyedwards7 (Nov 13, 2017)

Despite the possibility that tortoises would have no impact in Australia, the idea of deliberately bringing in exotic species should be out of the question, we need to prevent introduction of species and appreciate our own native wildlife. Unless there was conservation value, there really is no need. 
Also (not comparing cats to tortoises of course) the fact that pet cats are legal is beyond me. I know there would be an uproar if they decided to ban cats, it just frustrates me when we know they are one of Australia's biggest threats to wildlife. They (including ferals) reportedly kill 75 million native animals a night and are one of the reasons we have the highest extinction rate in the world. Let's stop bringing in new species!


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

Anything and everything regarding turtles (freshwater or marine) and tortoises is conservation motivated given their dire situation. Agree totally regarding cats.


----------



## Ashleyyedwards7 (Nov 13, 2017)

I can see you interest in introducing them then. Similar with Black Rhinos, conservationists are pushing to establish a population of them here. Regulations will likely never allow it though with the potential to bring in foot-and-mouth disease...


----------



## Flaviemys purvisi (Nov 13, 2017)

Ashleyyedwards7 said:


> I can see you interest in introducing them then. Similar with Black Rhinos, conservationists are pushing to establish a population of them here. Regulations will likely never allow it though with the potential to bring in foot-and-mouth disease...


Yeah foot and mouth would be a catastrophe in this country as we do not import any livestock and out export industry would come to a halt for a decade.


----------

