# Diamond jungle mutts



## SunRiseReptiles (May 6, 2008)

Hi all,

Just want to show you how nice they can become (the picture on the right was taken by a friend of mine). For all of you who don´t like crosses just scip this thread. 

Cheers Mark


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## ad (May 6, 2008)

In your opinion they 'become nice' - If that is so, why would you photoshop the pics?
When you compare these animals to a true Palmerston Jungle or a Gosford Diamond - 'nice' just doesnt really cut it sorry, your thread title sums it up nicely.


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## amazonian (May 6, 2008)

Owned


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## Jason (May 6, 2008)

dont me wrong they arent exactly ugly, but a true jungle is nicer!
thanks for sharing.


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## DanTheReptileMan (May 6, 2008)

I like them


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## Ramsayi (May 6, 2008)

Why should someone "just skip" the thread if they dont agree with mongrel mutts?

Well said ad,
at least they are in the Netherlands and not here.


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## vs380kw (May 6, 2008)

There are jungle/diamond crosses in OZ to there is a member on here who sells them


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## SlothHead (May 6, 2008)

This is the future of the herp pet market, and most likely designer animals are going to be more prevalent than line bred animals. 

Big can of worms with many pros and cons of different aspects, hmmm to start a thread on it or not, probably not as there will just be a fight


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## Mr feegle (May 6, 2008)

Still not to late to put them in the freezer mate


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## SunRiseReptiles (May 6, 2008)

Well actually I did expect all kinds of reactions, positive and negative. I respect everybodies opinion and there's only one thing that's really nagging me: 

Ad, why are you suggesting that I'm using photoshop? Based on what? The colours are even better in real than showed on the pics. I'm only trying to get them as close to real as possible. Do you really need that accusation? Or are you just jealous! Many people came by here and everybody is free to visit me and judge for them selves. So if you are in the area.......

Cheers Mark


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## hornet (May 6, 2008)

personally these do nothing for me but i have seen crosses that are not bad lookin at all


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## Ness (May 6, 2008)

isnt it illegal to breed 2 different species together?


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## mrsshep77 (May 6, 2008)

It is in QLD.... but other states have different laws!


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## itbites (May 6, 2008)

*Personally I don't like it at all and as stated earlier..jungles and diamonds look far better when they are just that, some mixes i've seen do produce lovely patterns/colouring though*


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## Twiggz (May 6, 2008)

Another Popcorn frenzy in the making. lol

Just as Slothead has stated "This is the future of the herp pet market, and most likely designer animals are going to be more prevalent than line bred animals". Realising each state has different takes on what is legal and illegal with regards to crosses/hybrids and all other things worth freezing.......it amazes me that so many people show an interest and encourage those conducting their breeding resigmes in such manners. After all in the long run its only going to threaten the existence of our natural Australian fauna.


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## NCHERPS (May 6, 2008)

I don't believe as many people as you think here in Australia will cross there animals, and certainly don't think it is the way the hobby is going.
After all we have what most of the world don't, pure locality specific animals, many of which carry there own unique traits/genetic defects ie. striping, hypomelanism, albinism etc etc..

Of course there will be a few that just can't help but try to produce a world first, ie. A bredli x albino darwin or a 
albino darwin x gtp , there is an appeal about these animals to, but it's not something that personally interests me although i can respect the animals for there uniqueness.

I don't think Sunrise reptiles should be criticised for his work with crosses as many europeans and americans who don't have access to our locality specific animals will work with such animals.
After all Sunrise is declaring them for what they are, crosses and good looking ones at that.
My hope is that the people in Australia that do decide to cross, do so in a responsible manner and don't try to sell off young as something pure when there not.

Neil


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## Jason (May 6, 2008)

i agree with neil on the issue of where australia is heading. the castle hile show for example had quite a few privot breeders selling animals etc, these breeders only had pure animals and imo are leading the hobby in terms of what the majority of new comers are going to see.


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## sweetangel (May 6, 2008)

as a new comer to reptiles and snakes i have to say i agree with NCHERPS.
i have only known about purebred snakes until recently.
i did not even know that you could cross different snakes.
So i think it is safe to say that in oz we will always have pruebred snakes as i can see from this website that so many people are against hybrids. Also there are so many beautiful pure lines that look absolutely amazing that we dont need to cross them to change the way they look. For example, the striped purebred diamond python from Snake Ranch at the Castle hill Expo.


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## 888lowndes888 (May 6, 2008)

I absolutely disagree with cross breeding. I think that the diamond x jungle shown is butt ugly and no where near as nice as a pure form. Why try to be mother nature by creating what is effectively a new species. As stated in the title they are just mutts.


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## SunRiseReptiles (May 6, 2008)

I do understand the problems with crosses in Australia and nobody wants to ruin your fauna. And for sure we do have a problem here with pure lines. We don't even know if our jungles are pure. We assume they are but nobody knows for sure. I keep most of my carpets as pure as possible, like our jungles, diamonds, bredl's and harrisoni's. I've only one project with diamond jungle jags and diamond crosses. 

Some of the carpets are really rare here.... Like pure Darwins and pure imbricata's. Unfortunately with the introduction of albino's here in Europe it's even harder to get pure Darwins. They cross hets and albino's with everything ... Which is too bad! 

There is also a rumour that jags did arrive in Australia..... so I do understand your concerns!

Mark


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

ad said:


> In your opinion they 'become nice' - If that is so, why would you photoshop the pics?
> When you compare these animals to a true Palmerston Jungle or a Gosford Diamond - 'nice' just doesnt really cut it sorry, your thread title sums it up nicely.


 
Thats a bit harsh isnt it, those snakes IMO are very good looking, its the best of both worlds. Just because you dont like crosses doesnt mean you have to say that "nice doesnt cut it" .

They are great looking snakes


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## Southside Morelia (May 6, 2008)

He's overseas for God's sake, don't flame him for showing an animal we all keep....that is a snake, for the dummies that are going to say we don't have x's Blah Blah Blah... 
Grow up, we know your opinions you goody two shoes! Just because the majority of us don't want to have x's/hybribs, doesn't give you the right to have a go at someone that is legally breeding these animals OS. Like said previously, there are some amazing looking animals OS and a credit to the people that are putting in the hard task of line breeding certain traits to get a desired animal, not unlike us, only difference we have the LUXURY of having pure bred specimens, they don't!
The reputation of ill informed ignorant attitudes of some Aussie Herpers, is what is making some people and this site a bit of a laughing stock on Overseas forums. It's our ignorance in appreciating these animals for what they are and the effort some people have gone to to get a desired look, maybe what alot us don't like, but hey he is an overseas guest, like it or don't post! 
My 2 cents... sometimes you can learn from people, even though you may disagree.


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## Southside Morelia (May 6, 2008)

888lowndes888 said:


> I absolutely disagree with cross breeding. I think that the diamond x jungle shown is butt ugly and no where near as nice as a pure form. Why try to be mother nature by creating what is effectively a new species. As stated in the title they are just mutts.


Who really cares what you think! The thread was someone "OVERSEAS" showing his animal....I really don't understand why people keep regurgitating this and preaching their high moral standings on this issue which at the end of the day, we all understand and accept as the right way to go, why do you bag the out of anyone who brings it up this subject matter in an supposibly Adult and Educated Forum, mate it's all been said before, DONE TO DEATH, you aren't going to get any more browny points from anyone by saying it!!!
OK, i'll give you one..good on you mate for saying their mutts...does that make you feel better, tough, come on...appreciate the thread for what it is!


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## Bugsy (May 6, 2008)

I feel that if this issue was tackled properly and controlled it could be a good thing for the reptile market, i wudnt mind owning a jungle X diamond...but at the same time, knowing what damage these can do in the wild to our pure bloodlines...i wudnt own one for the simple fact i wudnt want an escapee mutt left on my conscience. They are nice looking snakes though sunrise.


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## Retic (May 6, 2008)

SM, I agree totally. This bloke gave fair warning of the content and still gets heaps even though he isn't even in this country.
Anyway you said everything I wanted to so good for you.


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## Australis (May 6, 2008)

Southside Morelia said:


> The reputation of ill informed ignorant attitudes of some Aussie Herpers, is what is making some people and this site a bit of a laughing stock on Overseas forums..



Why should we care what seppo forums think, i doubt they would be too worried about what we think of their forums, doesnt help when certain Australian members go to the o/s forums just to have a cry.

A lot of the o/s forums are so full of photo threads of below average animals followed by a bunch of posts like "omg amazing, totally amazing, killer carpet buddy" "oh bud wow send it my way you dude" blah blah blah... below average animal after below average animal, i know who the laughing stock is 

If *SunRiseReptiles* wants a bunch of sugar coated replies maybe an Australian forum where cross breeding is largley despised isnt the best place for that.

Although i do love watching the usual suspects jumping to the defence of o/s animals, while putting a boot into the Aussies at the same time, good stuff, always predictable.


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## SunRiseReptiles (May 6, 2008)

Australis said:


> If *SunRiseReptiles* wants a bunch of sugar coated replies maybe an Australian forum where cross breeding is largley despised isnt the best place for that.



Nope, I just wanted to join this forum.....


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## dottyback (May 6, 2008)

Sunrisereptiles: Mark I think the cross looks fantastic! I was into tropical fish before getting into herps and there are some amazing cross's that not only look great but are widly excepted, the 2 bieng flowerhorms and king kong parrot cichlids. Keep up the good work mate. cheers, Ben


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## Kersten (May 6, 2008)

I'm just trying to wrap my head around why someone would post on a site they thought was a joke whose members were all ignorant.


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## Australis (May 6, 2008)

Kersten said:


> I'm just trying to wrap my head around why someone would post on a site they thought was a joke whose members were all ignorant.



Oh now your just showing your ignorance Kersten


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## thepythonpit (May 6, 2008)

SunRiseReptiles said:


> Nope, I just wanted to join this forum.....


 

nice snakes mate , dont pay to much attention to the small minds that cant think out side there self rightset views , you know what your doing and you are doing it well ... im a pure breed sort of person but i can appresiate a good looking snake and i dont think any snake deserves the freezer, theres a lot of people on here that hold a rat in higher regard then a cross breed snake ...


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## Kersten (May 6, 2008)

Australis said:


> Oh now your just showing your ignorance Kersten



I am, aren't I? Occupational hazard.


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

I would never want the pure blood lines of australian pythons to be ruined, but i can appreciate a beautiful crossbred. It can have many benefits, it can produce a more hardy and superior snake..as long as they arent released into the wild and not passed off as a purebred then i dont see a problem with it??


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## Australis (May 6, 2008)

Fossilman said:


> I would never want the pure blood lines of australian pythons to be ruined, but i can appreciate a beautiful crossbred. It can have many benefits it can produce a more hardy and superior snake.........



In what way could a mongrel be superior to a "purebred" animal?



> and not passed off as a purebred then i dont see a problem with it??......



They are frequently pasted off as something they are not, happens on this site often enough.


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## 888lowndes888 (May 6, 2008)

SM keep your pants on mate i was stating my opinion never at any stage did i preach. I said "I THINK" it is butt ugly personal opinion i have mine, you have yours.


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## mebebrian (May 6, 2008)

Stuff em, Nice snakes sunrise


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

Australis said:


> In what way could a mongrel be superior to a "purebred" animal?


 
Haha i knew someone would ask. Its called "hybrid vigour", google it 

Crossbred animals from any species usually have healthier genetics than purebreds. Its because purebreds are basically _inbred_ and so they only have genetics from a very small gene pool. 

A snake breeder who breeds purebreds does this for one reason, to produce a breed which "breeds true" and conforms to a "breed standard", These animals come from a "good bloodline" - that is one that is inbred so it has as many of characteristics that the breeder regards as desirable. Sadly with snakes its mostly all about looks, not neccesarily health.

Unfortunately this search for perfection and uniformity comes at a cost- The health of the animal. I cant explain this without typing a whole page so ill give an example.

Dogs for example, Its well known that a "mutt" or crossbred dog will probably be more hardy then a purebred . Purebred dogs die earlier and devolop far more tumours and cancers then mutts and are often less intelligent. Golden retrievers have bad hip problems and beagles have epilepsy, all this is a result of inbreeding the dog to keep the "purebred bloodline". Crossbreds are the basis of all farm animals because well they are basically superior to purebreds...

If you want me to i could go into detail about the genetics of purebreds and crossbreds and why crossbreds are healthier , im learning this stuff at uni so i like talking about it anyway lol


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## SunRiseReptiles (May 6, 2008)

This is one of the reasons that some well known breeders here in Europe started to breed diamond * jungle's. They lost many adult diamonds with tumors and also of the so called Diamond Syndrome. All the crosses that they produced are not dealing with any of these problems.

Cheers Mark


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## SunRiseReptiles (May 6, 2008)

and look for yourself..... this is not what I could call an ugly animal...


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

The principle of "purebreeding" is the same regardless of the species. Did you read anything i wrote??? :?


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## Twiggz (May 6, 2008)

thepythonpit said:


> theres a lot of people on here that hold a rat in higher regard then a cross breed snake ...


 
Lets think about that.......HELL YEAH!!!


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## MrBredli (May 6, 2008)

Yeah totally, cos round here where i live, wild Diamond Pythons are just dropping like flies, little buggers have been inbreeding for thousands of years now, every single one of them has some type of cancer or disease. If we're going to save them all we gotta be quick, someone send me 20000 Jungle Carpets so i can release them into Diamond country to help revive the dwindling genetic pool that these poor Diamonds have been left with.


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

SunRiseReptiles said:


> and look for yourself..... this is not what I could call an ugly animal...


 
Its beautiful and probably healthier too!!


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Yeah totally, cos round here where i live, wild Diamond Pythons are just dropping like flies, little buggers have been inbreeding for thousands of years now, every single one of them has some type of cancer or disease. If we're going to save them all we gotta be quick, someone send me 20000 Jungle Carpets so i can release them into Diamond country to help revive the dwindling genetic pool that these poor Diamonds have been left with.


 
Your too predicitable mate. Since when has the act of pure breeding captive diamonds had ANYTHING to do with wild snakes?? 

Go back in history when the first diamonds were captive bred, they were obviously bred from snakes taken from the wild which was a fairly large gene pool. They are now part of a small gene pool, they were then bred and bred and distributed around so that now heaps of diamonds are distant relatives of each other.


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## MrBredli (May 6, 2008)

Fossilman said:


> Your too predicitable mate. Since when has the act of pure breeding captive diamonds had ANYTHING to do with wild snakes??
> 
> Go back in history when the first diamonds were captive bred, they were obviously bred from snakes taken from the wild which was a fairly large gene pool. They are now part of a small gene pool, they were then bred and bred and distributed around so that now heaps of diamonds are distant relatives of each other.


 
Oh i see, so now we have to cross them with everything otherwise they will all die of cancer??!!


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## Hetty (May 6, 2008)

Fossilman, you clearly know nothing about the genetics of reptiles.

If you did, you'd realise how funny/stupid your comments are.


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## kakariki (May 6, 2008)

It has been stated before that reptiles are different in that in-breeding doesn't have the same effect as with mammals. I have seen some pretty sad inbred mammals in the past [ unfortunately some farmers are fine with running dad with his his daughters etc when it comes to cattle,sheep etc ] & cannot understand why reptiles would differ. Any thoughts fossilman? Surely inbreeding, whatever the animal, would intensify the genes, good AND bad. After all, that is the main reason behind it, to breed on the good traits while heavily culling those with the bad.
SRR...While I'm not interested in cross breeding with the snakes I have, I certainly can appreciate the beautiful patterns on some of yours.


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## Fossilman (May 6, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Oh i see, so now we have to cross them with everything otherwise they will all die of cancer??!!


 
Thats not what im saying i love pure blood diamonds, I was trying to answer the question which was how can some crossbreds be "superior" to purebreds.

Inbreeding effects reptiles in the exact same way it does with mammals bar the fact that it seems to be less pronouced.... either way, careless inbreeding will produce defects in offspring .




Hetty said:


> Fossilman, you clearly know nothing about the genetics of reptiles.
> 
> If you did, you'd realise how funny/stupid your comments are.


 
Ok..if you know it all then tell me how im wrong and back it up with sources and ill come on here and admit to everyone that im an idiot and i was wrong ok.

anyway its late i dont want to start a fight over this.. im out.


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## natrix (May 7, 2008)

Somehow these kinds of 'debates' are much funnier on websites about growing roses.


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## Australis (May 7, 2008)

SunRiseReptiles said:


> This is one of the reasons that some well known breeders here in Europe started to breed diamond * jungle's. They lost many adult diamonds with tumors and also of the so called Diamond Syndrome.All the crosses that they produced are not dealing with any of these problems.
> 
> Cheers Mark



Thats fair enough they might not be dealing with these "problems" anymore dont you think it might
be because your not dealing with real diamonds anymore?
Just sounds like a bit of a cop-out to me, breeding diamonds proved a little difficult so crossing them
out to other sub-speices was the solution...?
(reminds me of one persons experience with Albino Darwins in Australia )

So to use your mind set with inbreeding of pythons should people start breeding jungles into there
rough scaled pythons for fear of the problems if no hybrid vigour is added? sounds studid because 
it bloody well is.


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## thepythonpit (May 7, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Yes i did, that's how it was so easy for me to determine the fact that you are an idiot. You do realise that dog = one species, snake = thousands of different species right?


 
yet more insults and name calling from the LORD OF THE NEWBIES.
in the years that you have been on this site i would have thought you would know better than to try and get your point across without insults and name calling , it just makes you look ........
maby you need a bit of a hoilday you know give that huge brain of yours a rest....


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## Fossilman (May 7, 2008)

And your a Keyboard warrior


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## Hetty (May 7, 2008)




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## MrBredli (May 7, 2008)

Yeah i've got nothing... nothing that won't see me suspended by the end of the night.


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## natrix (May 7, 2008)

Yea , I got a warning or infraction or whatever for calling someone an idiot on here once . 
I reckon if you have to go that way ..........'your reasoning on this is idiotic' is better than 'you're an idiot' .


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## Vixen (May 7, 2008)

But the latter is more direct and to the point :lol:


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## natrix (May 7, 2008)

VixenBabe said:


> But the latter is more direct and to the point :lol:



True , but the difference is that Einstein was probably an 'Idiot' on the subject of baking cakes but he certainly wasn't an idiot . One thing is attacking/challenging an idea or specific action , calling someone an idiot is attacking them as a human being...if ya get my drift .


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## Vixen (May 7, 2008)

natrix said:


> True , but the difference is that Einstein was probably an 'Idiot' on the subject of baking cakes but he certainly wasn't an idiot . One thing is attacking/challenging an idea or specific action , calling someone an idiot is attacking them as a human being...if ya get my drift .


 
Only playing, its late and im bored


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## gold&black... (May 7, 2008)

Hi Fossilman, there r some things that can be argued abt and some that u can't only cos, most of the people here feel hybrids are wrong only cos they were told so when they joined the site... (so much for stereo type thinking and conditioning the noob's lol)They would rather kill a human then breed their diamond*jungle...... Have been on this site long enough to know that...... 

They just don't know that they might have a locality specific snake in their collection that might have some hybridizing in them cos all that they have, is the word of the breeder on which they conclude........ 

I personally know a lot of breeders who experiment with their snakes in AU and I find it funny that they are called a top bloke only cos the buyer has no IDEA what that person has been breeding..... 

For example there are some breeders who have a particular species of snakes from all localities pending what u r looking for eg,Jungles(lot of the localities have only come up recently and all of a sudden everyone has that locality for sale)...... What a joke..... 

Half the population of Antaresia pythons in Au collections have at some point been mixed with atleast two if not all the three species spotted, childreni and stimmy cos those were considered one species at one point of time and no one speaks abt it now.... And this only makes u wonder.....

So what I'm getting at is, let them purists b, no point arguing...... Look at the picture and if u like it, ENJOY it and for those of u in AU, if u cross breed u'r snakes, tell u'r buyers....cheers

G/B.......


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## stevel (May 7, 2008)

*why do you guys always have to bore us with the purist bial*

They Look great Mark absolutely splendid .shame about the thread bores though


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## amazonian (May 7, 2008)

Ad are we the only 1's that believe those 1st pics were photo shopped?
I thought it was pretty obvious as seen by the yellow coloration in the background.


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## Kersten (May 7, 2008)

I seem to recall someone making the point in another thread that it's useless to try and introduce logical arguments about genetics into an APS debate. I peed myself laughing then and I am doing so again. 

Let's just nod and smile politely to the teenagers with their wealth of knowledge of dog breeding. One day when they're all grown up they'll realise how foolish they appeared and have a good cringe.


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## ravensgait (May 7, 2008)

Quote"" the more I believe Australian breeders are miles in front of the rest of the world.""
Wow a rather pompous comment!!



As for the DiamondXJungles (that's a cross by the way not hybrids) nice enough looking critters and I've seen some that are just unbelievable looking animals much like the one in this thread is really nice looking http://74.220.207.106/~moreliap/forums/showthread.php?t=18451
one of mine that I feel is rather nice looking. 





Hey I can understand not liking crosses or the way an animal looks but is there any reason to be so insulting?? Some people take this stuff way to seriously.. Randy


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## salebrosus (May 7, 2008)

Goed Morhen Mark, nice crosses............but over here it is generally frowned upon and as previously stated, illegal in most states to cross species of animals or breed animals with genetic defects such as albino's etc.

Glad they are in the Netherlands but i think you have some nice animals there. 

Cheers.

Simone.


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 7, 2008)

Fossilman, it does not help arguing with people on a forum. I remember the years when diamonds were impossible to keep alive in overseas collections. About 20 or so years ago . Animals with mixed ancestry seemed to live longer. Australians seem to think that the rest of the world does not have access to pure australian animals. How did Paul Harris end up with Darwin pythons and murray Darling Pythons. How did albino Carpet pythons end up in europe? And these albinos are 6 years old at the moment? They must have gotten there even before they were released to the general public in Australia? But keep reading the threads on this forum. No doubt the same people that are badgering you will be drooling, when the evil overseas people start breeding all the magnificent morphs that can be made by having an albino in an overseas collection. Albino Jags, Albino tigers jags, albino reduced pattern irian Jaya jags, albino zebra jags, albino granite carpets but just to name a few. Australia ahead of the rest of the world? I dont think so.


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## stealbullets (May 7, 2008)

i hear what the people are saying about the x breeds, i rather pure blood myself, but as far as x breeds go, these look ok, i have seen a lot worse........diamond and bredli make a good x breed aswell.......like a really awsome looking costal or darwin. good work, if the price was right i would get 1, i like it becasue they are different.


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## Jason (May 7, 2008)

this thread has turned into a bit of a joke, let sunrise post his pictures, like them or leavethem. if you want to have yet another predictable thread about hybrids that never seem to lead anywhere anyway start a new thread, its always the same thing with hybids, its always the same things being said and i think somebody should be able to post a pictures of there animals with out copping the same old comments.


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## Retic (May 7, 2008)

Absolutely right.


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## Slateman (May 7, 2008)

Sdaji said:


> Everyone make babies with monkeys or your children will have cancer! :shock:



LOL Good one. You see? intelligent people can make comment and put the point across with out insults, fights and name calling.

Well done sadaji.:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Slateman (May 7, 2008)

Kersten said:


> I seem to recall someone making the point in another thread that it's useless to try and introduce logical arguments about genetics into an APS debate. I peed myself laughing then and I am doing so again.
> 
> Let's just nod and smile politely to the teenagers with their wealth of knowledge of dog breeding. One day when they're all grown up they'll realise how foolish they appeared and have a good cringe.



So wise so bright so superior.
I love people who feel that way about them self 

This site have so many members it is normal to get some stupid posts in forum.
This will happen on this site a lot. 
Some small sites with 15 posts per week and half of them posted by moderators don't have this problems.

Anyway there is lot of quality people posting here and like any large internet community, you should be smart enough to read mainly quality posts.

At least here on APS they are posts to read. :lol:


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## mrsshep77 (May 7, 2008)

It's such a shame when people can't even have a decent debate about the for's and against of any topic without throwing in childish and immature remarks! 
Rather than condoning this behaviour shouldn't the Mods of this site be encouraging members to argue in a civil and diplomatic manner? There's always someone that's gotta start with stupid name-calling or insulting a person's existence rather than just "debating" about the issue at hand!


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## Veredus (May 7, 2008)

I have been working on a line of hybrids containing all australian snake for some time now. I predict they will live a gazillion times longer than natural snakes and it is my personal opinion that they are the best of all hybrids.

The pic is a hatchy I got this season


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## chilli (May 7, 2008)

MrBredli said:


> Yes i did, that's how it was so easy for me to determine the fact that you are an idiot. You do realise that dog = one species, snake = thousands of different species right?



ironic, we are talking about jungles and diamonds, 1 species. not a good argument mrb, and therefore not good logic in determining someone to be an idiot


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## Hetty (May 7, 2008)

chilli said:


> ironic, we are talking about jungles and diamonds, 1 species. not a good argument mrb, and therefore not good logic in determining someone to be an idiot



That comment was made because Fossilman was comparing dogs to hybridising in snakes. The point still stands, you cannot compare dogs to snakes because snakes are thousands of species and dogs are one species.


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## Chimera (May 7, 2008)

These threads are funny when they run overnight, insomnia must do strange things to late night posters 

Still, at least MrBredli could find his soapbox in the dark 

And now for something completely different, an intelligent post:

State legislation's across Australia prohibits and/or greatly discourages the creation of species/subspecies hybrids and given the timeframe to make even the most basic changes to any herpetoculture licensing system, I doubt that will change in the foreseeable future. There are, however, little to no penalties associated with creating these hybrids. In NSW one simply has to put a Diamond and a Jungle on their license as "Carpet Complex (Morelia Spilota)" and they can continue to breed crosses that will be listed as "Carpet Complex".

The hybrid market in the US became strong due to large breeders line breeding crosses and like to produce pythons that many would consider to be spectacular in looks. I don't consider myself omniscient, however I do not believe there are many Australian breeders going down that path. Therefore IF the hybrid market opens up in Australia it will be a long way off and there will be great resistance from local legislators and the Australian herpetoculture community.


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## Slateman (May 7, 2008)

Chimera said:


> .



Agree.


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## Tatelina (May 7, 2008)

Chimera said:


> The hybrid market in the US became strong due to large breeders line breeding crosses and like to produce pythons that many would consider to be spectacular in looks. I don't consider myself omniscient, however I do not believe there are many Australian breeders going down that path. Therefore IF the hybrid market opens up in Australia it will be a long way off and there will be great resistance from local legislators and the Australian herpetoculture community.



Thank goodness for that. Have you got links to this legislation?


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## Tatelina (May 7, 2008)

SunRiseReptiles said:


> Ad, why are you suggesting that I'm using photoshop? Based on what? The colours are even better in real than showed on the pics. I'm only trying to get them as close to real as possible. Do you really need that accusation? *Or are you just jealous! *Many people came by here and everybody is free to visit me and judge for them selves. So if you are in the area.......
> 
> Cheers Mark



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Please.


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## timcutajar (May 7, 2008)

Even if it is illegal to cross-breed different species, which it may be, I don't know, it doesn't matter in this case because jungles and diamonds are the same species, just a different subspecies. I haven't really made up my mind about this but surely it would give the progeny a wider gene pool and therefore make them more resiliant to disease? Nice looking animals, anyway.


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## djfreshy (May 7, 2008)

Fossilman said:


> Haha i knew someone would ask. Its called "hybrid vigour", google it
> 
> Crossbred animals from any species usually have healthier genetics than purebreds. Its because purebreds are basically _inbred_ and so they only have genetics from a very small gene pool.
> 
> ...


 

I think you have a lot more to learn at uni Fossil. I would like to see your statistics on cross breds being healthier to pure breds. I have worked with canines for over 15 years and I can tell you hybrid vigour does nothing at all. Labradoodles still have hip dysplasia, cross poodles and maltese still have luxating patella. They suffer exactly the same problems as pure breds, the only difference is at least those of us who do breed "pure" are working on eradicating heridity problems, working closely with various Unis and genetisists.


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## Fossilman (May 7, 2008)

Maybe i do have alot more to learn, at least im admitting it. Wow someone on this site has actually tried to give me reasons for why they think im wrong without just calling me an idiot! 

Djfreshy i respect your 15years working with dogs 

All of what i said about crossbred and purebred dogs was told to me by a vet with something like 35years experience


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## djfreshy (May 7, 2008)

Believe me theres very FEW vets in this state that serious breeders respect, If you would like to find a mentor who is noted as a world leader in genetics pm me and ill be happy to pass the number.


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## Fossilman (May 7, 2008)

Arent alot of breeders just out to make money??? Correct me if im wrong.

Heres a link to a page of a breeder who breeds labradoodles just like you do, It tells you all about the problems of purebreds. Her name is Kate, she's is a veterinarian working in rural New South Wales. She has an Honours degree in genetics as well as a veterinary degree 

http://www.family-pets.com/genetics.html

Anyway....this thread has become all about dogs now so ill leave it here.


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## Beano05 (May 7, 2008)

I'm a beliver in "don't type what you woul'nt say to someones face".


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## MrBredli (May 7, 2008)

chilli said:


> ironic, we are talking about jungles and diamonds, 1 species. not a good argument mrb, and therefore not good logic in determining someone to be an idiot



Yeah, because there is no difference between crossing two different subspecies of snakes and crossing two different breeds of dog, right?  I'm sorry (not really) for being offensive, but if you think that was bad just wait until next time someone compares hybridizing snakes to crossbreeding dogs. That's all i can stands i can't stands no more!!


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## Chimera (May 7, 2008)

timcutajar said:


> Even if it is illegal to cross-breed different species, which it may be, I don't know, it doesn't matter in this case because jungles and diamonds are the same species, just a different subspecies. I haven't really made up my mind about this but surely it would give the progeny a wider gene pool and therefore make them more resiliant to disease? Nice looking animals, anyway.



OK, this I will argue.

Your comments about genetic strength based on diversity is an overly simplistic view of a complex subject. Furthermore, it fails to take into account the small amount of time that reptiles have been bred compared with other purebred animals and the reasonably large amount of founder stock (it is greater then you think). In addition to this, designer morphs of some species have been line bred and inbred for several generations without the presentation of defects or weaknesses. To take the anti-inbreeding to it's logical conclusion one must agree that the defects need to exist in the first place within the genetic code.

I will make one very clear point on crossing Jungles with Diamonds and that is to raise the question on how you would keep the progeny? There are vast differences in the environment that these 2 subspecies has adapted to and neither would survive long in the other's territory. I would suggest that the argument about genetic weaknesses through inbreeding pale in comparison to the problems presented in defining keeping regimes for an animal with an undefined natural home range and temperature.


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## caustichumor (May 7, 2008)

Yes well, as everyone knows mammalian dogs and reptilian pythons have followed the exact same evolutionary path and are so similar they can be compared to each other......


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## junglepython2 (May 7, 2008)

Fossilman said:


> Haha i knew someone would ask. Its called "hybrid vigour", google it
> 
> Crossbred animals from any species usually have healthier genetics than purebreds. Its because purebreds are basically _inbred_ and so they only have genetics from a very small gene pool.
> 
> ...


 

For one hybrid vigour is usually only evident in the first generation. Secondly you can also get outbreeding depression, so the notion that all hybrids are healthier is rubbish. Also pure snakes are not basically inbred at all.

Also, as others have pointed out dogs are the one species and have no relevance what so ever to this arguement and I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.
</IMG></IMG>


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## Veredus (May 7, 2008)

chilli said:


> ironic, we are talking about jungles and diamonds, 1 species. not a good argument mrb, and therefore not good logic in determining someone to be an idiot


 
Ah but all breeds of domesticated dog fall under the one subspecis of the grey wolf, therefore the distinction between labrador and poodle is far less than that between subspecies of carpet pythons so the argument is still completely relevant.


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## ravensgait (May 7, 2008)

LMAO dogs were talking about dogs again.. Um for those who really care about such things we are talking about carpet pythons here all one species and can't be separated by DNA testing. they were separated into subspecies not all that long ago . So tossing out that dogs are one species and carpets are many is BS , less differences in the lower order Carpets than in the higher order canine breeds. Hell far more difference in people than you'll find in any snakes species anyone ever heard of blood types?? 

Chimera, as the man pointed out the offspring of even the High percentage crosses are much easier to keep than pure diamonds, they seem to for what ever reason have the constitution of the Jungle or Coastal . And yes I keep both so am speaking from experience with these critters.

I think this subject is like talking about Inbreeding Science gets tossed out the window and emotions reign. Some like em some don't but I do wonder if the over riding negativity seen here doesn't have a lot to do with your lawmakers deciding it is illegal. Sure we have people over here that don't like crosses or hybrids hey if we all liked the same stuff this would get boring real fast. . Randy


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## Australis (May 7, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Chimera, as the man pointed out the offspring of even the High percentage crosses are much easier to keep than pure diamonds, they seem to for what ever reason have the constitution of the Jungle or Coastal . And yes I keep both so am speaking from experience with these critters.



Crossing Diamonds into other sub-species/species to make them easier to keep is the weakest justifications 
ive heard, and a real cop-out.
Also funny coming from o/s keepers who are meant to be at the forefront (not my opinion) of the hobby?

So, when will we see *Boelens Python* _Morelia boelini_ crossed to other _Morelia_ species?!


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## cockney red (May 7, 2008)

If they didn't keep them in microwave like temps, they could have living pure Diamonds. The only kind of Diamond.



SunRiseReptiles said:


> This is one of the reasons that some well known breeders here in Europe started to breed diamond * jungle's. They lost many adult diamonds with tumors and also of the so called Diamond Syndrome. All the crosses that they produced are not dealing with any of these problems.
> 
> Cheers Mark


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## CarpetPythons.com.au (May 7, 2008)

Just thought i would post a definition of a sub-specie for the newbies

A group somewhat less distinct than species usually are, but based on characters more important than those which characterise ordinary varieties; often, a geographical variety or race. (biology) a taxonomic group that is a division of a species; usually arises as a consequence of geographical isolation within a species.The most precise classification of organism. Our own species, Homo sapiens sapiens is a prime example of a subspecies, which over time had diversified from Homo sapiens and respective common ancestors.


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## Ramsayi (May 7, 2008)

This was posted a while ago on an OS site.I think it is valid and sums it up nicely.

In this debate of two sides, only one is having a negative
impact on the other..
While the guilty party can go on unhindered by any negative
consequence from those on purist side of the fence.

Every clutch of mongrel carpet eggs is doing its small part
to pollute captive populations, its a very selfish pursuit.


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## Southside Morelia (May 7, 2008)

Veredus said:


> therefore the distinction between labrador and poodle is far less than that between subspecies of carpet pythons so the argument is still completely relevant.


Are you serious???.....that is the funniest post I have read yet in this thread and an absolute crock! 
Wait to see how NPWS/DEC classify all the sub-species of morelia in the future...I'll leave it at that, because this thread has taken another pointless and irritating turn due to the immaturity of some that can't take at face value what the thread was originally about...it's a shame.


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## cockney red (May 7, 2008)

Unless you have inside information that they are to be classified as Morelia Morelia,Veredus has made a valid point.


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## junglepython2 (May 7, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> So tossing out that dogs are one species and carpets are many is BS , less differences in the lower order Carpets than in the higher order canine breeds. Hell far more difference in people than you'll find in any snakes species anyone ever heard of blood types??
> 
> Randy


 
Now that is BS, blood types are controlled by a few genes, you really think the different subspecies or carpet only differ by a few alleles? And what makes you think the one subspecies of dog differ more then the carpets?


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## Jason (May 7, 2008)

sunrise- could you post some pictures of you diamond jags? would love to see some pictures of them!


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## Southside Morelia (May 7, 2008)

Jason said:


> sunrise- could you post some pictures of you diamond jags? would love to see some pictures of them!


LMAO, Me too Jas, you stirrer!


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## nuthn2do (May 7, 2008)

amazonian said:


> Ad are we the only 1's that believe those 1st pics were photo shopped?
> I thought it was pretty obvious as seen by the yellow coloration in the background.


Probably just white balance, see if they're more/less appealing colour corrected


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## Fossilman (May 7, 2008)

I dont think it was photoshopped in the first place. The green colour of the leaves in the pic looks normal.


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## SunRiseReptiles (May 7, 2008)

nuthn2do said:


> Probably just white balance, see if they're more/less appealing colour corrected



Hi all,

Everywhere it's the same discussion over and over again. I do understand the doubt that the colours are fake but I will shoot some new pictures outside including the jags. Hope that this will clear the sky a bit. I'm sure there will always be people who like to argue. Our snakes are often presented at shows and many people visit our facility and see them with their own eyes. It's just very hard to catch the real yellow.

This are pictures of diamond jungle jags, they made by the guys of PrecisionReptiles. I visit there facility regularly and many others see their jags and it's not fake!!! 

Cheers Mark


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## jay76 (May 7, 2008)

I think those last 2 snakes are great


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## ravensgait (May 8, 2008)

junglepython2 said:


> Now that is BS, blood types are controlled by a few genes, you really think the different subspecies or carpet only differ by a few alleles? And what makes you think the one subspecies of dog differ more then the carpets?


 
Call it what you will but there is that much difference that you don't have in Carpets . But then so many are caught up in the emotions of being against Crosses that they missed the biggest point IE Dogs and People are much higher order organisms than snakes. Like I said it is like discussing inbreeding science has little to do with why most those against it feel the way they do. So disagree all you like it doesn't change what is.. 


Australis, if you want to disagree fine but where did I even imply that was the reason for doing the cross? Yep never said that I just confirmed what the OP had stated so how about disagreeing with something I actually have said. The crosses are done because they produce some killer looking animals and because the people who own the animals are allowed to breed what the want to breed. And yes if I want to try and breed my Boeleni to a Corn snake I am free to give it a try , after all they are my critters and no one has the right to tell me I can't breed them to what ever I choose. You may not like it but hey I bet I could find things you do that I don't like. The difference between us is that I wouldn't think to tell you what you can and can't do with your animals, where you seem to feel you have the right to tell other what they can and can't do with theirs. And that is what this comes down too, some trying to impose their personal beliefs on others. 

In your country for the most part you don't have a choice the state decides what you can and can't breed and really what you can keep and animals that you can never have, well legally anyway. 

I have to wonder, not all that long ago all Carpets were lumped together into one sub species. What would happen to your beliefs and those who feel as you do if tomorrow someone lumped them all back together? Would you then argue that localities shouldn't be crossed? who decides where one locality ends and another begins? Or would you argue that lumping them together is wrong ? maybe the person who separated them was wrong? You see you're argueing about something that really some person decided and that in the future some other person may decide was a bunch of BS and change. All so you can try and tell someone else what they can and can't do with their animals.. Sure that seems reasonable doesn't it.. Randy


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## Sdaji (May 8, 2008)




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## Australis (May 8, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Australis, if you want to disagree fine but where did I even imply that was the reason for doing the cross? Yep never said that I just confirmed what the OP had stated so how about disagreeing with something I actually have said. The crosses are done because they produce some killer looking animals and because the people who own the animals are allowed to breed what the want to breed. And yes if I want to try and breed my Boeleni to a Corn snake I am free to give it a try , after all they are my critters and no one has the right to tell me I can't breed them to what ever I choose. You may not like it but hey I bet I could find things you do that I don't like. The difference between us is that I wouldn't think to tell you what you can and can't do with your animals, where you seem to feel you have the right to tell other what they can and can't do with theirs. And that is what this comes down too, some trying to impose their personal beliefs on others.



Well, from the section i quoted randy, it appears you support or agree with the husbandry advantage of crossing out diamond pythons into other sub-species...thats how i read it.
Of course yourself and even many here in Australia are free to cross and or create hybrid reptiles (in some states atleast), but in the same way those against it are free to voice their concern and disapproval of something that threatens the very thing they enjoy, and if you dont like that, well thats just too bad.



ravensgait said:


> In your country for the most part you don't have a choice the state decides what you can and can't breed and really what you can keep and animals that you can never have, well legally anyway.



Not all Australian states prohibit the creation of hybrids/crosses and yet plenty of people still strive to keep pure animals there, its not the laws that are the only reason people want to keep pure (real) animals.
So im not sure where your going with that, considering even in North American there are folks still wanting to keep things pure...
It might be hard for you to understand, but there are people who simply respect native fauna.



ravensgait said:


> I have to wonder, not all that long ago all Carpets were lumped together into one sub species. What would happen to your beliefs and those who feel as you do if tomorrow someone lumped them all back together? Would you then argue that localities shouldn't be crossed? who decides where one locality ends and another begins? Or would you argue that lumping them together is wrong ? maybe the person who separated them was wrong? You see you're argueing about something that really some person decided and that in the future some other person may decide was a bunch of BS and change. All so you can try and tell someone else what they can and can't do with their animals.. Sure that seems reasonable doesn't it.. Randy



When all the Carpets (and the childreni complex) were lumped together, there were still people breeding true to locality, so i dont see how that would change if some of the sub-species are again removed...??
Not everyone is looking for a justification to cross the various type of carpet, i dont need anyone else to recognize something i can see with my own eyes, a diamond is a diamond and a jungle is a jungle to me regardless of its sub-species status, and im sure a lot of people would see it the same way..

Maybe you just see a python in a box when you look at your animals, but when i look at mine, i see some of my countries amazing native wildlife, and that means something to me, hell its the reason i keep reptiles to begin with, these are the animals i grew-up with in the bush, and the animals i still see in the bush.
This might be something you cant comprehend, but thats your loss not mine.


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## ravensgait (May 8, 2008)

Australis, why not just be honest and say 'I don't like hybrids or in this case crosses' ? Why do you feel you have to insult people, read into what they say and try to twist things to support your opinion and to suit your agenda ? And don't give me the I'd keep them Diamonds even is they were all lumped together BS you only think they are different because someone told you they were different.. There is far more difference in appearance between a solid chestnut horse and a pinto yet you know they are just a horse of a different color. Why do you know that because someone told you they were. Tomorrow they could be split into 40 subspecies then what do you do, how do you justify your opinion then? I know you'll try to think of something . 



Quote"Maybe you just see a python in a box when you look at your animals, but when i look at mine, i see some of my countries amazing native wildlife, and that means something to me, hell its the reason i keep reptiles to begin with, these are the animals i grew-up with in the bush, and the animals i still see in the bush.
This might be something you cant comprehend, but thats your loss not mine. ""

No loss here as I get to enjoy the flora and fauna of my country as well as the flora and fauna from other countries as well. So why not stop trying to belittle and insulting and just be honest as I said above. I find it kind of sad that some of you seem to feel that we have and we don't want you to ever have what we have. Well too late for most of it but you still have a few we don't. Myself in the same position surely wouldn't feel that way I'd be questioning why close the door after the horse has already escaped. 

Here's one to think about why are Northern Emeralds and Basin Emeralds still lumped together far more difference in the two than there is any any of the carpet subspecies. They are the same because someone said they are the same just as Carpets are different because someone decided they were. And for those that don't know do a search for each and just look at the scalation on the heads alone and you'll see what I'm talking about you don't have to consider the differences in size, color and scale count just look at the heads. Maybe tomorrow someone will split them who knows but there are so many example like them.

Now we could go on with this nonsense and yeah it is nonsense , the guy posted some photos of his snake you and others decided to make it into a anti cross/hybrid tirade again. You don't like them fine and dandy but I wonder if every time you posted a photo of you animals and people took the thread off into left field and insulted you and your animals if you'd wonder what the heck is wrong with these people. 


As for the folks crossing and breeding hybrids somehow impacting those that don't well think about this. Is having a snake of any kind something vital to you, your rights and existence? Nope it sure isn't. What is the difference in this and someone telling you to breed this diamond to that Diamond when you wanted to breed something else to it ? Hey should that person have the right to the animal they want instead of the diamonds you want? from the logic poured out in these threads you must believe that. You seem to feel that someone else is responsible for providing you with what you want irregardless of what they want. Your wants trump the person who owns the animals wants so where does it end? I'm sure someone will try to argue that and just prove that they think what they want is more important than what others want.. To many wants in all that, how about do with yours as you please and let others have the same right with theirs....Randy


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## Australis (May 8, 2008)

ravensgait said:


> Australis, why not just be honest and say 'I don't like hybrids or in this case crosses' ? Why do you feel you have to insult people, read into what they say and try to twist things to support your opinion and to suit your agenda ? And don't give me the I'd keep them Diamonds even is they were all lumped together BS you only think they are different because someone told you they were different.. There is far more difference in appearance between a solid chestnut horse and a pinto yet you know they are just a horse of a different color. Why do you know that because someone told you they were. Tomorrow they could be split into 40 subspecies then what do you do, how do you justify your opinion then? I know you'll try to think of something . ....Randy



*Randy,*

What exactly have i twisted to suit my "agenda" and where have i insulted "people"........?

Yet, your more than happy to question (insult) my honestly in the same post, you must be joking, surely!
Whats not being honest? ive hardly tried to conceal my dislike for hybrids and or crosses, what i have tried to do is explain _why_ i think the way i do.

I wouldnt want to be accused of "reading into what (you) they say", but are you honestly trying to compare the colour/pattern differences between two domestic horses and the difference between the carpet sub-species? :|

Any change to the Latin names, with regards to a removal of some (or all) sub-species wouldnt change how i think at all, the common names wont disapear with them, and the sub-species will simply be refered to by their geographic origins, which is a common practice here anyways.
In my last post i corrected some of your misinformation in regards to how things are here in Australia, with your insinuation that Australians are only keeping pure animals based on rules and regulations given by licensing authorities, of course this is a complete fallacy.

Hey i guess a lot of Australians grew-up with these magnificentc creatures in their backyards so we can apprectiate them for what they are, some even making considerable effort to see them out in the wild maybe you cant relate to this, or fully comprehend it, but you dont seem to grasp the concept at all, i like to get out there and see wildlife, and also keep a small number of native animals (not just reptiles) at home to enjoy.... but from where i stand a unnatural cross isnt anything in my eyes, not interesting or worth keeping at all...


Matt.


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## stevel (May 8, 2008)

I love crosses and lets face it we have no chance of your governments giving us any new blood is there !!unless we risk the animals lives via smuggling !!
this guys working with what he has .you people crack me up with this high and mighty purist ****e .theres no way on this planet you can convince a crosser to stop, so why bother ruining all the threads people put decent looking crosses on ? its just boring zzzzz


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## Australis (May 8, 2008)

stevel said:


> I love crosses and lets face it we have no chance of your governments giving us any new blood is there !!unless we risk the animals lives via smuggling !!
> this guys working with what he has .you people crack me up with this high and mighty purist ****e .theres no way on this planet you can convince a crosser to stop, so why bother ruining all the threads people put decent looking crosses on ? its just boring zzzzz



Sorry, where was a decent looking cross posted? i must of missed it, no accounting for taste.


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## BooBoo (May 8, 2008)

stevel said:


> I love crosses and lets face it we have no chance of your governments giving us any new blood is there !!unless we risk the animals lives via smuggling !!
> this guys working with what he has .you people crack me up with this high and mighty purist ****e .theres no way on this planet you can convince a crosser to stop, so why bother ruining all the threads people put decent looking crosses on ? its just boring zzzzz




Nice to see our governments got something right......


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