# I'm reaching for my flame suit.



## elapid68 (Jan 31, 2007)

Many people whinge and carry on about a certain person venomoiding his animals. People complain that he mutilates the animal by removing the venom glands and it shortens their life span, they need the venom to properly digest food items etc etc. There are a lot of complaints about his methods of venomoiding and there seems to be a lot of people carrying on about how venomous snakes should have venom glands and people are butchers for having them removed.
I've handled many of his venomoids and they seem quite heathy and growing nicely.
That being said, don't get me wrong. I don't believe in venomoiding. I wouldn't dream of having it done to any of my critters, even my nut case Taipans.
It seems everytime someone mentions this particular person, everyone, and most haven't even meet him, jump on the bandwagon and mouth off about him and some of the comments are extremely nasty and down rite appalling. 

I've just found out from another thread that ARP has pits full of venomoids.

My question is this (excluding the medical procedures itself) why do people carry on about one particular person and yet no one says anything about ARP. Why is that?????


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## AustHerps (Jan 31, 2007)

Answer: Ignorance.

I've handled a few venomoids, met said person several times, and even received hatchies that have come from venomoid parents. That said, just like you, I don't support the venomoiding of snakes for general use. On a side note, I think that they _may_ (and only may - I'm undecided) have a place in training vets and other like medical staff to deal with them. Back on track - yes, the comments made half-wittedly by some are most certainly appalling. I seem to recall one very intelligent argument by a gentleman who's key point was that the man looks weird. Go figure.

Having met the man on quite a few occasions now, I've always found him to be friendly, intelligible, and most definitely passionate about animals. The only problem I find is that when you get him on the phone, you'd better have a spare hour on hand. Of all of his animals that I've witnessed/handled, all appeared healthy, active, alert, etc. And of what I've seen of their living conditions, what can I say - better than most I've seen. A keen point to note, as mentioned earlier - the venomoids breed, so they're obviously not too upset.

Despite having known said person for a while, I only recently (this Friday) had the pleasure of witnessing a Snakebusters show at Cranbourne Shopping Center. To the amazement of many, he doesn't run around the stage showing everyone his magical snake-whispering powers (unlike many a documentary I've seen, where one Australian gentleman runs around with a 6 foot pair of tongs, and bandages strapped at the ready on his wrists - I pity those snakes more than I pity those that are encompassed in this thread!). Right throughout the whole show, great emphasis is put on the fact that no snake in Victoria should ever be approached, unless by an experienced venomous snake handler. He also emphasises that his animals are captive born and bred, regularly handled, and somewhat accustomed to large crowds, and that they are _far_ different than their wild counterparts.

Why don't people kick up a stink about the ARP? Because there's no leader to follow.

Austy.


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## ihaveherps (Jan 31, 2007)

Austy, no-one is doubting the mans passion, I mean the guy has tried to change the scientific name of every species he has every touched after a family member, lol. 

The real crux of the matter is his methods, tools and level of vetrinary training... plus the fact that ARP doesnt routinely hand them out to children for photo's. I am personally all for Snake exhibitors bringing out unruly specimens of endemic species, so that the younger audience can learn to identify them, and take notice of the respect that the exhibitor shows the animal. The hard time hots can give exhibitors can help the younger audiences understand the possible threats from such animals, without the mixed messages of telling children never to touch them before they line up for photo's holding one.


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## Hickson (Jan 31, 2007)

John Weigel said last month that the ARP does not have any venemoids and never has. He has no idea where this rumour came from, but he's not happy about it.



Hix

*Oops!!!!!

I got that wrong. See my post below for the correction.*

Hix


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## Jozz (Jan 31, 2007)

I have only recently discovered information about this practice, and subsequently read alot about this person, and what he does. I have read alot of the remarks made about him, and I agree a lot are rude and un-called for. To me they mostly seem to be people following the hype, because his name is out there, and at the end of the day, the practice is always going to be controversial. 

I think it does have it's place, and from what I have read, anyone who actually knows this person has nothing bad to say about him, his animals, or the treatment of them. 

People really need to research things before they comment, and not as you said 'jump on the bandwagon'. If they do disagree in what he does, then make comment, but there's a way to do it without being rude and nasty IMO.


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## Wrasse (Jan 31, 2007)

I don't know him. I couldn't care if he looks weird or talks your ear off. I have no personal opinion on the man himself.

I don't agree with his method of surgery. 

I do agree whole heartedly with ihaveherps comments, so consider them repeated here.


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## Tatelina (Jan 31, 2007)

Pardon me for sidetracking....who/what is ARP?


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## Aslan (Jan 31, 2007)

Australian Reptile Park


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## MDPython (Jan 31, 2007)

Australian Reptile Park


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## koubee (Jan 31, 2007)

I agree with Austy. 

*backs away quietly*


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## FAY (Jan 31, 2007)

I have never met the man......have read about him and thought that what he did wasn't very good...but a few people put me straight about him and I shouldn't judge.
But having met a lot of the so 'called' respected herp people I found that some (not all) want to bag out anyone who is in some sort of competition with them. It seems to be the same in all hobbies being it dog breeding, horse breeding etc etc


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jan 31, 2007)

ok, ray has a total of roughly 30 voided snakes,all breeding and feeding,crapping and fighting.i dont think he has done an operation for a few years now.
i think that compared to the amount of pain and suffering that thousands of snakes endure due to ignorant rednecks,shoddy care by private keepers and some zoos,habitat degradation etc,that what he done is negligable in terms of cruelty.
tha petition is not about the operation,they say, they only have a problem with the way ray does,hes not a vet,blah blah.
personaly,id like to see him use anesthetic,for some reason he cant,someting to do with cold torper and blood flow..,but thats only part of the issue.
Im not a vet,but
i can dehorn a steer,very painful,
and cut its balls off with a rusty pocket knife,ow,cut the meat of a sheeps bum,debeak chicken etc etc...all with out being a vet and with out anesthetic..you have to do all these things when you work with animals on a day to day basis.they say it cant digest food properly, they are wrong...at least when it comes to australian elapids.they say the gland can grow back causing the snake to become venomous again..meh,maybe it the op wasnt done correctly,they say the snake feels pain, and also say things like
"how would you like it".
this anthropomorphising attitude is an indication of ignorance,and a lot of rays knockers arnt ignorant,.
the anti ray ferver stems from deeper things which are privy to a few people.


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## Bryony (Jan 31, 2007)

I agree with most of what people are saying.
I also have not met him and I don't think I know enough to have a complete opinion on his practices. He and his colleagues/friends are the only ones who are seeing it first hand and the results from it.

That being said, rudeness, name calling and sly comments shouldn't be exchanged, especially if you do not know the person and have not done sufficient research into their practices.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you use your opinion incorrectly and start abusing people directly, your opinion is made invalid.

Bandwagoning is a bad habit like smoking; you know its bad but can't help wanting a part in it.
Call the quit line today!


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## Greebo (Jan 31, 2007)

I have met "he who puts puppy milk in his coffee" and found him to be a bit odd. I also have opinions about his behaviour in recent years but I don't feel the need to join the lynch mob every time his name is mentioned.
Our hobby is an alternative one and not mainstream. Perhaps this is the reason there are quite a few ...eccentric people involved in this hobby.


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## MrBredli (Jan 31, 2007)

I don't like him because i despise arrogant people, regardless of whether they mutilate snakes or not.


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## Hickson (Jan 31, 2007)

My bad.

Just spoke to John Weigel and I don't know who I was listening to, but it wasn't John. He has just confirmed that the ARP did have some venemoids back in the 90s, but they don't have any now. They were kept in the snake pits, as there were concerns about people reaching in and being bitten by an elapid.

A vet conducted the operations at the time, different procedure to whats-his-face, and they haven't performed the operation in over ten years.

Once again, my apologies. I guess I must have drunk too much Coke on the day and misunderstood John.



Hix


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## salebrosus (Jan 31, 2007)

elapid68, [email protected]#@$#@$#@% $#%%$^^%&* #$%#^%$^&

Just kidding, mate. Your absolutely right. I certainly didn't know ARP had venomoids. I'm certainly not a fan of the practice either.
I met him when he did a talk at MacHerps one night some years back and he was nice enough but i found him slightly odd. But then again people say i'm odd too.

Simone.


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## waruikazi (Jan 31, 2007)

AustHerps said:


> I seem to recall one very intelligent argument by a gentleman who's key point was that the man looks weird. Go figure.
> Austy.



That comment was made by me, well at least i was one of those people lol. That comment wasn't my argument it was an observation i made of his behaviour and comments he made after watching a snake busters (is that what it's called?) video. 

The problem i have with him is the way he just hands snakes, even though they are venemoids (which i have a probelm with also) to kids. I have done reptile displays at shows. I never ever hand snakes out and definately do not go up and drape them around kids necks. Snakes are unpredictable animals because they can not be tamed. Let alone that kids are so incredibly impressionable, they will look at a snake in the wild and think that snake is safe to play with and pick it up. 

Do you still have a problem with my statement?


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## moosenoose (Jan 31, 2007)

My personal opinions are these:

1)	It is unnecessary to produce such animals as they serve “no purpose” except bolstering a persons ego.
2)	These operations – for whatever logical reason – should have only been performed by a qualified vet!
3)	I’ve seen Rays shows from time to time – not once does he mention that the snakes are voids – but merely behave because of how he keeps them.
4)	I think handing out things like voided Colletts and Tigers to young kids is irresponsible without mentioning what they are and what’s been done to make them safe.
5)	Elapids – but more so Vipers (in the states) – from what I have been told, can regenerate poorly, partially and incorrectly “removed” venom glands to make the voided snake venomous again.
6)	If the RSPCA or similar were truly serious about the protection of animals – then this practice of voiding animals should be outlawed – it’s that simple!

Which leads me to the most important point:

*7)	No man should have to eat an entire raw lettuce in a Herp meeting without the addition of some form of condiment!*


In addition: I have not spoken to Raymond, so I can’t say I know him at all. I wouldn’t shrug the opportunity to talk with him and would show him every courtesy should that happen. I don’t have anything personal against the man and from everything I’ve been told, from the people who know him, is that he is a very helpful, friendly and knowledgeable person to anyone who asks for his help. 

Unfortunately though, all it takes is for someone to do something stupid to really get the attention of people, and their backs up. Dodgy home surgery and blatantly describing the techniques of performing these sorts of operations verbally and visually, to me, comes under the heading of stupid. While Raymond may have healthy looking animals that appear to be thriving – how many did he lose before he “perfected” his self taught home veterinary skills? He is not a vet, so it’s understandable that people have filed his actions under the heading of blatant animal cruelty. What if I told you I performed home surgery on my dog to stop him from barking??- you’d be outraged! 

Cheers,
Luke.


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## Julie-anne (Jan 31, 2007)

I myself have never met him or even seen one of his shows, therefore i have no personal opinion about what he does and have nothing at all against him. 

However, at work the other day (i work with school age kids 6-12yrs) we had a guy from WIRES bring in his herps and educate the kids about snakes and first aid for bites etc. 
Every time he tried to tell the kids not to touch wild snakes for such and such reason someone would say "but when Snakebusters came to our scout camp he was holding *insert name of whichever venomous snake we were talking about here* and they weren't doing anything to him".
It's hard to try and teach kids that snakes should be respected and left alone when they see other people holding the ones they're told to keep away from. 

I've never seen a Snakebusters show myself so i'm not sure if he warns the veiwers that his snakes have been operated on (i'm sure he would) but perhaps this should be emphasised more as most kids don't remember names, speeches and words, they mostly just remember what they see and when they see someone holding a death adder (or whatever) they think its ok.


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## elapid68 (Jan 31, 2007)

Hix said:


> My bad.
> 
> Just spoke to John Weigel and I don't know who I was listening to, but it wasn't John. He has just confirmed that the ARP did have some venemoids back in the 90s, but they don't have any now. They were kept in the snake pits, as there were concerns about people reaching in and being bitten by an elapid.
> 
> ...



Yes, I got an email earlier today from someone confirming *APS doesn't have venomoids*. So now the record on that has been set straight.



johnbowemonie said:


> elapid68, [email protected]#@$#@$#@% $#%%$^^%&* #$%#^%$^&




Love you to Simone :lol::lol::lol:



johnbowemonie said:


> Just kidding, mate. Your absolutely right. I certainly didn't know ARP had venomoids. I'm certainly not a fan of the practice either.
> I met him when he did a talk at MacHerps one night some years back and he was nice enough but i found him slightly odd. But then again people say i'm odd too.
> 
> Simone.



Ok, Rays' odd. I'm not disputing that. But who isn't. The world would be too boring if we each didn't bring a bit of oddness into it.




moosenoose said:


> Which leads me to the most important point:
> 
> *7) No man should have to eat an entire raw lettuce in a Herp meeting without the addition of some form of condiment!*
> 
> ...



Yes Luke, this has been the subject of many debates :lol::lol:



Thanks to all for posting non emotional, thought out comments. I was wondering how long it would take for it to become a "I hate Ray, the snake mutilating so and so" thread. Thankfully it didn't degenerate into that.


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## Robbo (Jan 31, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> Yes, I got an email earlier today from someone confirming *APS doesn't have venomoids*. So now the record on that has been set straight.
> .




glad to hear APS dosnt have any venomoids 

i personally wouldnt want to keep venomoids
and i dont like the fact that he is not a vet performing the surgery


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## baxtor (Jan 31, 2007)

waruikazi said:


> . Snakes are unpredictable animals because they can not be tamed. ?


I might be heading a bit off topic but what defines "tamed" and who says they can't be.


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## AustHerps (Jan 31, 2007)

Waruikazi, whether said statement is classed by you as a point, or by me as an argument, it doesn't need to be expressed. I don't think anyone has the right to comment on the appearance of others. Full stop.

Regarding whether or not Ray's a licensed vet (keeping in mind, as expressed above, that I don't support voiding snakes in general) I'd like to make a few points which might be worth considering.

1. Just because someone is classified as a licensed vet doesn't mean that that person is more knowledgeable in the correct procedures for dealing with reptiles. If that were the case, any of us could take our herps to any local vet and get adequate treatment. My local vet was more than happy to supply me with drugs without inspecting my animals rather than have me bring a not-so-well taipan in. Legal? (On a side note: After that experience, I did receive an automatically generated letter asking me to bring "Taipan" in for his dental check. I didn't.)

2. Venomoiding of snakes is somewhat of a medical breakthrough - an area still to be explored. How many herps died under Ray's knife before he started to get it right? Who knows? As with any breakthrough operation - plenty of animals/people die whilst doctors practice. Would it matter less if the animals died under the knife of a vet?

Cheers,
Austy.


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## stencorp69 (Jan 31, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> I don't like him because i despise arrogant people, regardless of whether they mutilate snakes or not.


 
Are you talking into a mirror here???? Read your thread before posting the hypocracy must be blinding


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## elapid68 (Jan 31, 2007)

AustHerps said:


> On a side note: After that experience, I did receive an automatically generated letter asking me to bring "Taipan" in for his dental check. I didn't.
> 
> Cheers,
> Austy.



Why not???? I would have. The look on the vets face would've been priceless :lol::lol::lol:


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## cyclamen (Feb 1, 2007)

hehe, i would hav taken the taipan in for a teeth check to austy LOL
mel


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## FAY (Feb 1, 2007)

Ray Hoser is not the only exhibitor to be irresponsible (in regards to draping vens over kids shoulders etc)

A few years back when we first started keeping reptiles, myself and Garth went to ARP, a chap was doing the reptile show, his name was Michael and was telling kids to talk their parents into getting some snakes so if they breed them they can make x amount of $$$$$$$! 

Now that is what I call irresponsible!!!!!

I just hope that they have stopped saying things like that.


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## cyclamen (Feb 1, 2007)

GARTHNFAY said:


> Ray Hoser is not the only exhibitor to be irresponsible (in regards to draping vens over kids shoulders etc)
> 
> A few years back when we first started keeping reptiles, myself and Garth went to ARP, a chap was doing the reptile show, his name was Michael and was telling kids to talk their parents into getting some snakes so if they breed them they can make x amount of $$$$$$$!
> 
> Now that is what I call irresponsible!!!!!



hehe, i know him quite well. he lives next to my best mate. lol.


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## junglist* (Feb 1, 2007)

An interesting idea bout the venomoiding of snakes by vets to train them int he handling etc of vens. Not sure if te theory is sound, but an interesting idea none the less.

If you're going tokeep one and train with it though, wouldnt you want to be force to respect it?


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## AustHerps (Feb 1, 2007)

junglist* said:


> An interesting idea bout the venomoiding of snakes by vets to train them int he handling etc of vens. Not sure if te theory is sound, but an interesting idea none the less.
> 
> If you're going tokeep one and train with it though, wouldnt you want to be force to respect it?



Mmm I certainly don't think that venomoids are a good place to start to learn ven handling for private keepers. That comment was more geared at aiding some reptile vets to take it to the next level in terms of dealing with elapids too, as well as lowering possible insurance costs (maybe??)

Re the dental check: I didn't have a licence at the time, and I don' t think the taxi driver would have liked the idea any more than the vet lol

Cheers,
Austy.


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## moosenoose (Feb 1, 2007)

AustHerps said:


> 2. Venomoiding of snakes is somewhat of a medical breakthrough - an area still to be explored. How many herps died under Ray's knife before he started to get it right? Who knows? As with any breakthrough operation - plenty of animals/people die whilst doctors practice. Would it matter less if the animals died under the knife of a vet?



Perhaps not, but still to my original statement - what's the point of producing them? There is no ethical reason for their creation. Maybe Raymond, in all seriousness should be commended for finally "getting it right”, I don't know, but what I would love to know is this: *what sort of person would think to get one of their pet snakes out and “see” if they could surgically remove its venom glands???* An even bigger question is: *How long do you place them in the fridge to drop their metabolism to the point where they A) Aren’t killed and B) Sedated to the point where they'd feel no pain for the “duration” of the procedure.* These questions aren’t aimed at being nasty, they are logically thought out and viable points which really beg to be answered.


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## waruikazi (Feb 1, 2007)

AustHerps said:


> Waruikazi, whether said statement is classed by you as a point, or by me as an argument, it doesn't need to be expressed. I don't think anyone has the right to comment on the appearance of others. Full stop. Austy.



As i said Austy that comment was not meant to be about his appearance it was meant to be about his actions. If you are still offended by this i apologise, if Ray is... toughen up. 

If people do controversial things, they need to expect to cop some kind of backlash over it. If they can't handle that, then they shouldn't do it. I would expect Ray hoser would know understand this, if he doesn't then there are bigger problems with him than i expected.


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## -Peter (Feb 1, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> My question is this (excluding the medical procedures itself) why do people carry on about one particular person and yet no one says anything about ARP. Why is that?????



So you try to validate it by removing one of the main issues thats caused the commotion. It is the procedure; as performed by Ray hoser that is the issue. 
As to ARPs venomoids, its been mentioned in posts on here before. Because they were done by a highly qualified vet with much herp experience in a clean surgery without the aid of rubber bands nailed to a piece of wood and with the use of anesthetic and pain relief drugs it probably wasnt seen as important or comparative to the real issue.


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## waruikazi (Feb 1, 2007)

Either way i see it the same as docking tails. Don't agree with it JMO.


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## NaughtyByNature (Feb 1, 2007)

I too see it like a docking tale subject BUT until it becomes illegal then it comes down to everyone to their own opinion 
.

Peace be with you all


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## Isis (Feb 1, 2007)

How on earth can anyone stand up for someone who mutilates animals for his own financial gain. I too have spoken to kids that have seen his Snakebusters show and have come away thinging that its ok to try and pick up any snake. 
Yes thay have banned docking tails, mulesing sheep there has been standards put in place for emasculating cattle,sheep and horses. The RSPCA still continue to fight against De Beaking and cage farms for chickens. We really need to start to push to stop this "man" from performing his Illegal and barbaric mutilation of elapids. 
I cannot understand how you people can stick up for his practices and yes I am talking about the venomoiding he does not him personally as I have never met him and never wish too as I dont ever want to have anything to do with someone that publicly promotes and condones illegal and cruel practices.


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## waruikazi (Feb 1, 2007)

Now now Isis that isn't the subject here, please stay on topic.

This thread is about why people have a problem with what Raymond Hoser does EXCEPT all of the barbaric, immoral and cruel things he does... WHAT A CROCK!


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## HerpDoc (Feb 1, 2007)

Essentially this debate has 2 main issues and I will try to answer them as succinctly as possible but for more information refer to my article that is posted on the petition or I can email it to those that are interested.

1. The way in which the procedure is performed - Ray does not provide any analgesia or anaesthesia which means that animals can still fell pain as the surgery is being performed. Cold torpor does not reduce pain sensation and vets regularly perform oral procedures without excessive bleeding or use specific surgical techniques to minimise this so this part of the argument is fundamentally flawed as well. To compare this procedure with de-horning of cattle or mulesing of sheep is rediculous. It is the recommendation of the Australian Veterinary Association that these be performed under some form of anaesthesia but in some cases particularly that of mulesing is not always practical. However, the short-term discomfort from these procedures is far preferable to the long-term agony experienced by a sheep as it is slowly eaten alive by maggots.

2. The ethics of why the procedure is performed - the reality is that venomous reptiles are dangerous animals and if they cannot be handled safely without the risk of harm to either the animal itself or the handler then they should not be kept. Despite what Ray argues (all of which is anecdotal mind you) there is absolutely no scientific evidence to suggest that manual restraint, tubing or head pinning causes excessive stress on animals and until there is scientific peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary then this remains the most humane way of handling these animals. We should not use deficiencies in skills or husbandry as an excuse to inflict un-warranted pain and suffering on an animal.

No matter how you spin it this practice is disgusting and abhorrent and should be outlawed immediately.


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## krissy78 (Feb 1, 2007)

Call me crazy but is there any real point in purchasing venomous snakes just to remove their venom glands. To me there is no logic in this. If you want a non venomous snake why not just buy a python.


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## Isis (Feb 1, 2007)

Finally an intelligent and scientific arguement against Hoser. The sad thing is there is still a lot of people on here that will support him and his practices out of sheer stupity an arogance.
But then again its the same people that dont like taking their animals to the vet when they are sick ect..........
Silly me I forgot they know better.........lol


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## elapid68 (Feb 1, 2007)

consequence said:


> So you try to validate it by removing one of the main issues thats caused the commotion. It is the procedure; as performed by Ray hoser that is the issue.
> As to ARPs venomoids, its been mentioned in posts on here before. Because they were done by a highly qualified vet with much herp experience in a clean surgery without the aid of rubber bands nailed to a piece of wood and with the use of anesthetic and pain relief drugs it probably wasnt seen as important or comparative to the real issue.



No, I'm not trying to validate it by removing one of the main issues as you put it. The Issue is a double standard as I see it. The procedure as performed by Mr Ray Hoser is not the issue of this thread. There are enough "Hoser is mutilating scumbag" theads floating around and I would prefer if this thead stayed away from that line of thought.
As previously mentioned, I do not believe in venomoids and that is *regardless* of whether Mr Hoser or a qualified vet does it.

The reason I said "excluding the medical procedures itself" is because a lot of the arguments are not logically thought out and peoples emotions surface and these argument soon come down to "what's the use of having an Elapid if you remove the venom glands" and "if you want a non venomous snake should should get a python". These type of comments do not form any part of a logical argument/debate (And before anyone tries to brass me up for that yes I'm just as guilty for having said it myself). Or the other comments talking about the "barbaric act of venomoiding". No mention of any particular procedure just that venomioding itself is a barbaric act.
These arguments come up every time a debate on Mr Hoser comes up. Yet when it was mentioned that APS has venomoids (which we now know they don't) no-one even uttered a whisper. That, my friend, is the issue. I was just curious to find out peoples reasons or ideas behind this.
I was not after a debate on the act of venomoiding itself. I've been there, done that.


Personally I have quite a large-ish collection of Elapids, ranging from very placid animals that will curl up and go to sleep on your lap to some of the most psychotic Inland Taipans you'll ever come across. I would never dream of venomoiding any of my animals (no matter how psychotic they are.) So please *never* try to accuse me of "validating" venomoids.


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## Hickson (Feb 1, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> Yes, I got an email earlier today from someone confirming *APS doesn't have venomoids*. So now the record on that has been set straight.





robbo said:


> glad to hear APS dosnt have any venomoids





elapid68 said:


> Yet when it was mentioned that APS has venomoids (which we now know they don't) no-one even uttered a whisper.



Just a small point that no-one has picked up on........ APS doesn't have venemoids, it doesn't even have snakes. It has members (and some of them are quite venomous).

ARP, on the other hand, is a different matter........



Hix


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## salebrosus (Feb 1, 2007)

I know how you love your animals elapid68..................and i know you would never be up for the venomoiding of any elapids. 
I hate the idea of the procedure whether it's done with aneasthetic or not. Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc.
I can't wait for the day i finally own a Copperhead, venom and all!

Simone.


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## jordo (Feb 1, 2007)

> As to ARPs venomoids, its been mentioned in posts on here before. Because they were done by a highly qualified vet with much herp experience in a clean surgery without the aid of rubber bands nailed to a piece of wood and with the use of anesthetic and pain relief drugs it probably wasnt seen as important or comparative to the real issue.


With the amount of arguments people make like "I'm against venomoids" and "Why buy a ven just to void it" I don't think it is just the fact that a qualified vet performed the procedure. Maybe their leader wasn't there to follow in this instance, or maybe the fact ARP is a larger organisation than just one person made it too daunting to attack them. Who knows?


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## dragons75 (Feb 1, 2007)

If i was to surgically remove the beards on my dragons to make them look less scary to little kids i would and should be banned for life from owning any pets up on numerous animal cruelty charges and unable to look at myself in the mirror venamoiding is wrong it is cruel and those who doi it should have there eyes removed.


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## Aslan (Feb 1, 2007)

Possibly just goes to prove the 'bandwagoning' debate...

The wagon is well and truly attached to Hoser...no wagon for ARP, no abuse...

Interesting observation about peoples willingness to express views (their own or otherwise..)...


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## -Peter (Feb 1, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> No, I'm not trying to validate it by removing one of the main issues as you put it. The Issue is a double standard as I see it. The procedure as performed by Mr Ray Hoser is not the issue of this thread. There are enough "Hoser is mutilating scumbag" theads floating around and I would prefer if this thead stayed away from that line of thought.
> As previously mentioned, I do not believe in venomoids and that is *regardless* of whether Mr Hoser or a qualified vet does it.
> 
> The reason I said "excluding the medical procedures itself" is because a lot of the arguments are not logically thought out and peoples emotions surface and these argument soon come down to "what's the use of having an Elapid if you remove the venom glands" and "if you want a non venomous snake should should get a python". These type of comments do not form any part of a logical argument/debate (And before anyone tries to brass me up for that yes I'm just as guilty for having said it myself). Or the other comments talking about the "barbaric act of venomoiding". No mention of any particular procedure just that venomioding itself is a barbaric act.
> ...



Thats the only issue I have with Ray Hoser.


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## Isis (Feb 1, 2007)

The problem most people have with Hoser Aslan is the way he performs the "surgery" with no anasthetic or no qualifications.... The venomoid debate involving ARP is a whole other arguement. I dont agree with what venemoiding full stop and I definately am against backyard buthchers like Hoser believing that they can perform surgeries on animals. For a start it is illegal to perform surgery when you are unqualified and in unregistered premises.


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## dellywatts (Feb 1, 2007)

I went and saw the snakebusters show at the shopping center and putting the vemoiding things aside for a second, i found the show to be horrible. I found (and in my own opinion) that there was little respect for the animals' welfare. The animals were passed around to little kids who dropped them. They put turtles on their backs just for the amusement of kids who thought it was funny that they could flip over. I don't think that they taught the kids any respect for these animals. Not to mention that there were so many animals being passed around and so many people around that anyone could have walked off with a crocodile or a snake.
As for the venom glad thing, enough people have said what i feel so there is no need to rewrite it.

Well that's my rant!


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## snakelover (Feb 1, 2007)

G'day folks,

Thankyou for your interest regarding venomoid snakes at ARP. During the late 1980s our veterinarian conducted a surgical procedure on the tiger snakes and black snakes maintained in our outdoor exhibit pits, which effectively rendered them incapable of envenomating over-enthusiastic visitors. This was undertaken as a means of convincing our then-fledgling regulatory government agency and our increasingly intruding public liability insurance company that snakes in open pits didn’t present a risk to our visitors.

Strictly speaking however, this procedure was not a ‘venomoid’ operation, since our snakes didn’t lose the capacity to produce and store venom. Rather than removing the rather sizeable venom glands, the procedure was more akin to a vasectomy in that the venom duct - a narrow tube running below the eye and connecting the venom gland and fang, was cut and ligated so that venom could not flow from venom gland to bite-recipient. This procedure was discontinued in the early 1990s after achieving a solution to the above-mentioned insurance and regulatory issues. I think there may be two or three of these ‘vasectomised’ snakes still living at the Park. Although our veterinarian was and is extremely skilled and experienced in reptile surgery, I doubt that he would have considered a procedure as radical as removing the entire venom glands from snakes and replacing the void with silicone globules unless there were very commanding reasons to do so.

John Weigel
Australian Reptile Park


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## Varanus1 (Feb 1, 2007)

Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
"Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."

just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people! 

The world is full of stupid people who do stupid things.

By the way Simone, this is not an attack on you at all, I would just like to see if anyone can prove this "what if this happened...". Personally, I don't agree with the procedure of removing venom glands, but having not asked Ray why he does it, I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement. 

There is nothing particularly fair or ethical in bagging someone - if you must comment, do so on the procedure, not the person. 

Regards,
Trent


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## AustHerps (Feb 1, 2007)

HerpDoc said:


> Despite what Ray argues (all of which is anecdotal mind you) there is absolutely no scientific evidence to suggest that manual restraint, tubing or head pinning causes excessive stress on animals and until there is scientific peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary then this remains the most humane way of handling these animals.



Might I just add that simply because there is no scientific peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary, doesn't mean that the abovementioned methods can be deemed the most humane. 

I believe to a very high degree that an animal's behaviour and behavioural patterns are highly affected by the way the keeper interacts with his/her animal. I have seen first hand 5 or 6 coastal and inland taipans which never had any tools used on them unless absolutely necessary, and, they were very well behaved. Now, just because someone doesn't use tubes, doesn't pin frequently, etc, doesn't mean that a snake will turn out to be a good handler. But I think that it makes one's odds a lot better if they're not used unless necessary.

For instance, I have two reasonably young inland taipans here, both from the same clutch, both kept in the same conditions. One had a prolapse, and consequently received 7 injections. That taipan had to be pinned 8 times in total, one to reverse the prolapse, and 7 times for injections. That snake, to this day, is not the same snake. It is far more nervous, flighty, and doesn't hook all that well anymore. It's more fortunate companion, however, is the opposite - very calm, laid back, etc. Of course, I'm not stupid enough to suggest that this is the only factor. The snakes could just be naturally different. But if I had to put my finger on it, I'd say that the noticeable change came after the necessary pinnings.

Not to condone the operation, but I must say that I've never seen calmer brown snakes in my life. Just something to note I guess.

Cheers,
Aaron.


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## MrBredli (Feb 1, 2007)

Varanus1 said:


> Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you.


 
Ummm.. except maybe kids of course..


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Feb 1, 2007)

Hix said:


> My bad.
> 
> Just spoke to John Weigel and I don't know who I was listening to, but it wasn't John. He has just confirmed that the ARP did have some venemoids back in the 90s, but they don't have any now. They were kept in the snake pits, as there were concerns about people reaching in and being bitten by an elapid.
> 
> ...


 
Huh?
so the tigers/copperheads and eyelash vipers etc have had their venom glands removed? they DO have vens

i was there recently and one of the reptile keepers milked a tiger, showed me the venom too, it was real.

also, i thought venemoid was the term for whole, un-mutilated vens.....?


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## elapid68 (Feb 1, 2007)

Hix said:


> Just a small point that no-one has picked up on........ APS doesn't have venemoids, it doesn't even have snakes. It has members (and some of them are quite venomous).
> 
> ARP, on the other hand, is a different matter........
> 
> ...




Ooops, a case of the fingers typing quicker than the brain was working. My bad. 

Yes I meant ARP and not APS.

Good pick up Hix.


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## FAY (Feb 1, 2007)

Just a question....about how old would Ray Hoser be????


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Feb 1, 2007)

GARTHNFAY said:


> Just a question....about how old would Ray Hoser be????


 
i remember some1 saying 36? correct me if im wrong


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## da_donkey (Feb 1, 2007)

36! i hope i look better than that at 36.

Donk


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## FAY (Feb 1, 2007)

Why I asked is that myself and garth were just talking about him...thinking that it is something an 'OLD' showman might consider doing....not someone who should be a bit more informed at the age of 36.


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## da_donkey (Feb 1, 2007)

What happens if i buy a Doberman pup, i want it to look the part so i clip its ears tie paddle pop sticks to them and wrap them with bandages( so they stand up) then dock its tail.

Is that cool?

Donk


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## salebrosus (Feb 1, 2007)

Varanus1 said:


> Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
> "Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."
> 
> just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!
> ...



Ok Trent, why is it that every time someone posts pics of free handling elapids on this site does the argument come up people being irresponsible??????? I certainly remember pugsly posting shots of free handling elapids and then getting flamed for being irresponsible and how many people on this site thought he would cause somone to end up getting bitten by witnessing his shots. And for your argument about most people having enough common sense about not handling a venomous snake explain why so many people are being bitten by snakes in recent years. I'm not referring to keepers or rescuers but by knuckleheads that have got some weird and wonderful story of how a brown snake has chased them across their yard and somehow manged to jump up and bite them on the hand. 

I certainly haven't bagged Ray Hoser out. I clearly said that i thought he was odd, but that people thought i was too. And yes, the procedure sucks. Just my opinion.

Simone.


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## Nome (Feb 1, 2007)

This is a video of one of his shows....he is passing species of venomous snakes out left right and centre to children. He doesn't appear to say much more than 'these are tame snakes, but don't do this in the bush, don't try this at home'.

Besides all the other stuff about his procedure, how can anyone think this is okay? Watch it and judge for yourself. This is a production that appears to be done by himself, so it's not warped by anyone else.

http://media.theage.com.au/?categor...me=&t=1OR829&ie=1&player=wm7&rate=368&flash=1


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## MrBredli (Feb 1, 2007)

I'm not a huge fan of him having 10-15 snakes shoved into 1 tub either. Should be one per pillow case (or similar) in my opinion. I can't understand how a guy with so much passion for reptiles can also be so cruel in so many ways.


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## da_donkey (Feb 1, 2007)

Last time i gave my opinion on this subject :evil: i gave myself a 2 month ban from APS, im not getting into it again.

Cant handle the guy!!!

Donk


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## moosenoose (Feb 1, 2007)

Varanus1 said:


> Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
> "Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."
> 
> just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!
> ...



Not terribly hard to prove at all I'm afraid Trent, as this article written only a month or so ago in the Herald Sun describes quite "ironically" what Raymond himself refers to as the Steve Irwin Phenomenon! :? After seeing the link from Nome I think Hoser should concentrate on his own backyard before worrying about anyone elses!


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## Isis (Feb 1, 2007)

Da donkey. If you do that to a dog just for aesthetic purposes then you deserve to be shot. What a stupid thing to say. If your child was born with a big nose would that had no medical ramifications would you cut it off and tie it to paddle pop sticks to make it look more socilly acceptable even if it meant immence pain for the child. No you would be concidered cruel same as dogs whose tails get docked for purely image reasons. 
Hoser is a cruel man who confuses children..... dont stick up for him and his horrible ways.


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## da_donkey (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi Isis,

I would never do that to any animal, i was comparing this practise to what hoser does.

Most people on here know my views on the subject ( i doubt i would ever "stick up for him".

Donk


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## elapid68 (Feb 2, 2007)

I'll answer each seperately



Oxyuranus microlepid said:


> Huh?
> so the tigers/copperheads and eyelash vipers etc have had their venom glands removed? they DO have vens



No, they are still highly venomous animals. It was just a few animals in some outside pits that we were talking about. This is fully explaned by John Weigel in his post which can be found 4 prior to yours.




Oxyuranus microlepid said:


> i was there recently and one of the reptile keepers milked a tiger, showed me the venom too, it was real.



As ARP is one of the biggest suppliers of venom for the production of antivenom, I'm not overly surprised the venom you saw was real. 




Oxyuranus microlepid said:


> also, i thought venemoid was the term for whole, un-mutilated vens.....?



Venomoid is the term used for a venom producing animal that has had its vemon glands removed by surgery. 
An animal that is capable of producing and delivering its venom is simply a venomous animal.


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## elapid68 (Feb 2, 2007)

da_donkey said:


> Last time i gave my opinion on this subject :evil: i gave myself a 2 month ban from APS, im not getting into it again.
> 
> Cant handle the guy!!!
> 
> Donk



This is one of the points I keep trying to get across. If you have a non emotional, logical, thought out opinion then post it. It's when people start abusing and name calling that they get themselves in trouble.
Take that newspaper article the other week. The responses started off well then it deteriorated into a "Hoser is a snake mutilator and he should die" argument. It got quite embarrassing to read. We have enough trouble getting the general public to accept our hobby and those type of comments don't help. It just shows the herp community to be a bunch of un-educated rednecks.


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## raptor (Feb 2, 2007)

I've avoided commenting until now, but having read 5 pages without anyone seeming to notice two glaring similarities means I had to finally offer my opinion!
Ray Hoser has voids. ARP has voids. Correction, ARP HAD voids. Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Hoser hasn't performed the proceedure for years, yet all seemed to take note of the fact that neither has ARP. The bottom line is both had them, both created them, & neither has created any more for some period of time. So why is Hoser continually castigated for still having them? Would everyone feel better if all the said animals were promptly put down? Would it change anything? Ray would still be remembered & vilified as the "man who voided hots". He AND at least one other person, who seems to be immune from comment because he's a vet. I'm not convinced of Hoser's claims that the herps dont feel it. I'm far from convinced that a kitchen table is an appropriate place for surgery. But I'm also far from convinced that it has no long-term effect on the animal in any way, & therefore the fact that it was done in a different manner becomes a secondary consideration. Is the whole anti-Hoser movement perhaps a snowball effect of his ruffling feathers by exposing smuggling & big buisness practices? Ray does have some "unusual" ideosyncrasies, and I've personally found it hard to supress the odd chuckle on a number of occasions when I've talked to him, but to publically bag a bloke for a few strange personality traits is a bit out of order. Lets keep the whole thing in perspective: Like him, hate him, or be ambivilent, it doesn't matter. Just keep in mind that Hoser isn't the only person to have voids. Nor is he the only person to have ever cut an animal up to create them. Instead, ask the question "Who's doing it now?"


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## MrBredli (Feb 2, 2007)

I don't have a problem with a certified vet conducting such an operation (as described by John). If Ray had gone to the same vet, and that same vet had performed exactly the same operation as performed at the ARP, on his snakes, then i wouldn't mind it at all. I think *deep breath* that Ray actually has a point when he says that the snakes are less stressed as they no longer need to be hooked and tailed which is a good thing seeing as they are handled so often. However, he certainly overdoes the point (and i'm not surprised as it is the only logical one he has), and to say that anyone who does use a hook on a hot is being cruel is just ridiculous.

In any case, it doesn't matter how many times you tell a young child not to try this at home, if they see you freehandling a Black Snake like it is a python, they are quite likely to attempt it if they ever come across one at home. 

Perfoming this procedure on snakes that live in pits to protect idiots who decide to jump in is a fair reason to have it done. Doing it so you can pass them around to anybody and everybody, to inflate your ego, and to inflate your bank balance are not acceptable reasons in my opinion. 

These comments are based on a certified vet performing the procedure. Hoser's hack jobs just makes it so far more worse..


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## elapid68 (Feb 2, 2007)

raptor said:


> I've avoided commenting until now, but having read 5 pages without anyone seeming to notice two glaring similarities means I had to finally offer my opinion!
> Ray Hoser has voids. ARP has voids. Correction, ARP HAD voids. Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Hoser hasn't performed the proceedure for years, yet all seemed to take note of the fact that neither has ARP. The bottom line is both had them, both created them, & neither has created any more for some period of time. So why is Hoser continually castigated for still having them? Would everyone feel better if all the said animals were promptly put down? Would it change anything? Ray would still be remembered & vilified as the "man who voided hots". He AND at least one other person, who seems to be immune from comment because he's a vet. I'm not convinced of Hoser's claims that the herps dont feel it. I'm far from convinced that a kitchen table is an appropriate place for surgery. But I'm also far from convinced that it has no long-term effect on the animal in any way, & therefore the fact that it was done in a different manner becomes a secondary consideration. Is the whole anti-Hoser movement perhaps a snowball effect of his ruffling feathers by exposing smuggling & big buisness practices? Ray does have some "unusual" ideosyncrasies, and I've personally found it hard to supress the odd chuckle on a number of occasions when I've talked to him, but to publically bag a bloke for a few strange personality traits is a bit out of order. Lets keep the whole thing in perspective: Like him, hate him, or be ambivilent, it doesn't matter. Just keep in mind that Hoser isn't the only person to have voids. Nor is he the only person to have ever cut an animal up to create them. Instead, ask the question "Who's doing it now?"




Thank you, couldn't have put it better myself. You've hit the nail on the head on so many levels.


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## darkangel (Feb 2, 2007)

i don't know too much about this man but i definately don't like his methods. as far as him draping the snakes over children i don't think it's that big a deal personally. i think it would be a better idea to limit the number of snakes being handed out so he could keep a better eye on them all though. i think if you get to hold any animal not just snakes you respect them and appreciate them so much more and you realise just how beautiful they are. it's one thing to look but if you have the chance to hold them it's something different again. also, if they no longer have their venom glands then all they can do bite just like any of the snakes you and i have at home. i let my son hold my mac all the time just like alot of other parents do on this site. all snakes have the potential to bite whether they are "tame" or not. if parents are worried about that it's as simple as not letting your children participate in the snake holding. from what i can gather nobody has been bitten by any of his snakes at these shows though.


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## Inkslinger (Feb 2, 2007)

IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on, but I digress Voiding or not well the practice still goes on as does tail docking earclipping and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.
Why do we do these things? BECAUSE WE CAN the greatest failing of the human race, for those that put forth the argument that they have a right to live as Elapids it could also be said they have a right to live free not in captivity.


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## elapid68 (Feb 2, 2007)

Inkslinger said:


> IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on, but I digress Voiding or not well the practice still goes on as does tail docking earclipping and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.
> Why do we do these things? BECAUSE WE CAN the greatest failing of the human race, for those that put forth the argument that they have a right to live as Elapids it could also be said they have a right to live free not in captivity.



So why do Elapids have the right to live free and not captivity and not pythons, lizards, Turtles, Parrots, Finches and all the other native animals and birds that we in Victoria keep. 
And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??


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## moosenoose (Feb 2, 2007)

Inkslinger said:


> and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.



But in years to come that same kid will probably head off and bang a metal bar through the top of it anyway all in the name of fashion!   It can't hurt all that much! Nobody remembers having it happen to them!


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## IsK67 (Feb 2, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??




Well................


IsK


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## junglepython2 (Feb 2, 2007)

Inkslinger said:


> IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on,


 
Pythons, dogs, cats, birds and just about every pet imaginable has been housed/fed/treated irresponsibly at times its no reason to ban them.


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## elapid68 (Feb 2, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??





IsK67 said:


> Well................
> 
> 
> IsK



:lol::lol::lol: Now, now IsK, play nice


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## Australis (Feb 2, 2007)

AustHerps said:


> 2. Venomoiding of snakes is somewhat of a medical breakthrough - an area still to be explored. How many herps died under Ray's knife before he started to get it right? Who knows? As with any breakthrough operation - plenty of animals/people die whilst doctors practice. Would it matter less if the animals died under the knife of a vet?
> 
> Cheers,
> Austy.



What Hoser is doing is no Breakthrough (although he may claim it is), and its sick to think that animals have died as you say "before he started to get it right?". 

"plenty of animals/people die whilst doctors practice"

Well, thats not so much the case, your average joe doesnt "practice" on humans before maybe becoming a Doctor, Hoser is neither a Doctor or a Vet by any stretch, so why didnt he get the animals voided by a skilled Vet, instead of doing it himself.....

Clearly the ARP was able to get animals Voided by a Skilled Vet, yet Hoser on the other hand would rather void them himself it seems, why?

Maybe no Vet in there right mind would be willing to risk voiding animals to be placed around random kids necks, heads, shoulders.... risky indeed.

To trust the word of Hoser someone who isnt a trained vet that these animals are "safe" is a big ask, what if he made a amatuer mistake with the voiding? rendering one of these animals capable of producing and injecting venom, even a tiny amount into the neck of a small child......

The link "Nome" posted of one of his shows was shocking indeed, regardless of what you may think about Ray Hoser it not hard to see that his shows are over the top with very young children with Venomous snakes hanging from them.

What Hoser does with the Voids and how he created them, in no way could be compared to the ARP previous voided animals IMO. i dont like the ideal of voids in any respect, but surely its better the ARP way, than the Hoser .... way

Hosers Voids:

Created in a cruel primative manner by a layman, then used as a cheap thrill in his shows.

ARP (previous voids):

Voided by skilled Vet, glands not removed, used for safe display in open pits.


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## MrBredli (Feb 2, 2007)

Australis said:


> Hosers Voids:
> 
> Created in a cruel primative manner by a layman, then used as a cheap thrill in his shows.
> 
> ...



_*Touché*_


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## buck (Feb 2, 2007)

MrBredli said:


> I don't have a problem with a certified vet conducting such an operation (as described by John). If Ray had gone to the same vet, and that same vet had performed exactly the same operation as performed at the ARP, on his snakes, then i wouldn't mind it at all. I think *deep breath* that Ray actually has a point when he says that the snakes are less stressed as they no longer need to be hooked and tailed which is a good thing seeing as they are handled so often. However, he certainly overdoes the point (and i'm not surprised as it is the only logical one he has), and to say that anyone who does use a hook on a hot is being cruel is just ridiculous.
> 
> In any case, it doesn't matter how many times you tell a young child not to try this at home, if they see you freehandling a Black Snake like it is a python, they are quite likely to attempt it if they ever come across one at home.
> 
> ...


 

Totally agree with everything written above.


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## Varanus1 (Feb 2, 2007)

I never stated that you did bag him simone, and i'm sorry if it came across that way. I was merely questioning one point in particular (can we still be friends?).

MrB, I can tell you now that I do not know a single parent who does not tell their children to leave all snakes alone, period.

Thank you Moosenoose for providing some credible evidence about Rays shows giving people the wrong impressions about wild snakes, I really appreciate it. 

I guess its time for me to withdraw my statement!

Cheers guys,
Trent


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## Oxyuranus microlepid (Feb 2, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> I'll answer each seperately
> 
> No, they are still highly venomous animals. It was just a few animals in some outside pits that we were talking about. This is fully explaned by John Weigel in his post which can be found 4 prior to yours.


 
i was there just a short while ago, there were exactly 4 copperheads, and 3 tigers in OUTDOOR pits

AS WELL AS INDOORS, there was an oxyuranus microlepidotus female, a mff trio of eyelash vipers, a death adder, an unknown (to me) blue and white striped viper, and a king brown male, also a DWARF king brown male, a king cobra, night tiger, rhino viper, mangrove snake, and 2 other vens i do not know the name of.


???


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## PremierPythons (Feb 2, 2007)

I don't need to meet the man to know that I don't care for him at all - he voids venomous snakes and I absolutely loathe the practice on every level so that's good enough for me...


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## MrBredli (Feb 2, 2007)

Varanus1 said:


> MrB, I can tell you now that I do not know a single parent who does not tell their children to leave all snakes alone, period.


 
Yeah, same goes for kids playing on the road. But if they see their parents playing on the road, they'll run straight out there with them no matter how many times they've been told not to. This is kids we're talking about..


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## JJS. (Feb 2, 2007)

Comparing it to tail docking, etc? Does that mean circumcision is gonna be banned? Same sort of thing.......


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## JJS. (Feb 2, 2007)

Couldnt resist


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## Inkslinger (Feb 2, 2007)

elapid68 said:


> So why do Elapids have the right to live free and not captivity and not pythons, lizards, Turtles, Parrots, Finches and all the other native animals and birds that we in Victoria keep.
> And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??



You misunderstood I was not having a go a Ven Keepers have kept them myself, but the argument put forth that they have a right to live as vens which means free, not caged, dont get me wrong Im all for keeping of our native fauna just having a go at the silliness of the argument put forth.

As to other states I cannot comment because I have not seen first hand vens are kept there, maybe I have only seen poor examples of keeping here, but those I have seen leave a lot to be desired in terms of safety anyway.


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## Inkslinger (Feb 2, 2007)

JJS. said:


> Comparing it to tail docking, etc? Does that mean circumcision is gonna be banned? Same sort of thing.......


Not banned but most Pedeatrics Doctors refuse to perfom the operation now.


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## Inkslinger (Feb 2, 2007)

moosenoose said:


> But in years to come that same kid will probably head off and bang a metal bar through the top of it anyway all in the name of fashion!   It can't hurt all that much! Nobody remembers having it happen to them!



Vens probably dont remember either dosnt make it right as to banging a metal bar through it doesnt compare pain wise and is done by choice.

*Comes down to Shouldnt be done at all whether by Vet Back-yarder or the bloody milk man it is wrong what ever the arguments are.*


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## Hetty (Feb 2, 2007)

+I don't think what he does should be justified under any circumstances. Just because there are worse things it doesn't mean what he does is okay.


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## smith84 (Feb 2, 2007)

i believe that you should respect the creature reguardless. mutilation is not the answer. antivenoms are available for self administration by ven keepers, i havnt any ven snakes but thus is my belief


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## raptor (Feb 2, 2007)

Chanty79 said:


> I don't need to meet the man to know that I don't care for him at all - he voids venomous snakes and I absolutely loathe the practice on every level so that's good enough for me...



Hopefully I'm not too far out of line here (seeing that you haven't said anything to the contrary) but this is exactly the type of comment that led me to post originally. Does this mean that you'd petition to have ARP's vet deregistered? Have ARP closed down for commissioning the proceedure in the first place? If not, WHY not? If you disagree with Hoser's USE of the animals once voided, fair enough, I disagree with it myself, but to disagree with him voiding or keeping voids then that loathing has to be across the board, otherwise it's manifestly unfair.

Elapid88, maybe inkslinger's comment applies to how ridiculously easy it is in Vic to keep vens: Any 18 year old who's payed the right amount of $$$ can go & buy one, with next to no idea of how to control it. I've seen any number of examples of it over the years. Another instance: an 18yr old (again!) with a basic licence and absolutely no idea of how to keep as much as a bluetongue is legally entitled to go out & buy himself a 6 foot lacie, capable of at least as many, if not more, horrific injuries than the average ven.

However, that begs the point. It appears that, no matter what logical arguments are put forward, the vast majority of posts have been, & will continue to be, "I hate Ray Hoser 'cos he voids snakes", on a purely emotional basis, & with no further regard for who else has, did, will, or is continuing to do to this day. I'm FAR from being a fan of the practice myself, but these emotional reactions are NO different to the ones put forward by cockies for decades: "The best snake's a dead snake 'cos they kill my livestock".Complain about the practice, & I'll agree with you, on any number of levels. But at least be consistant in your condemnation.


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