# Why are reptile enthusiasts in Australia not allowed to keep exotic reptiles



## Cunninghamskinks (Apr 8, 2014)

i was just wondering why
Cunninghamskinks


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## andynic07 (Apr 8, 2014)

I thought they were in Queensland but would have to check.


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## kitten_pheonix (Apr 8, 2014)

A few reasons,
Foxes, rabbits, cane toads, horses, pigs/ wild boars. 
We have learnt not to keep introducing species.
Look at how many my pet xxx has eescaped and that will give you an idea of why we cannot keep them fully contained.


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## Cunninghamskinks (Apr 8, 2014)

ok


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## Fuscus (Apr 8, 2014)

1/ Look at the amount of feral animals in Australia and the damage they have caused
2/ Look at the number of "Help! My snake has escaped!" threads on APS
3/ Figure out the rest.


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## andynic07 (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry I was on my phone earlier and the full title didn't come up. I thought you were asking about cunningham skinks and not exotics.


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## Cypher69 (Apr 8, 2014)

Obviously "exotic reptiles" is a very generalised term & if exotics were allowed into the country, I do foresee a very stringent process as to what can be kept.

I know everyone keeps saying, "look what happened with the cane toads, foxes & rabbits..." but can you honestly see the same threat to our natural fauna when, for example, say the corn snake?
I mean the introduction (on purpose or accidental) of toads, foxes & rabbits were done in an era where environmental impact studies were literally non-existant. 
Myths of corn snake populations in the wild has never been proven. I can't see the corn snake competing or being a threat with a diamond or carpet for the same food source...honestly I can see the corn snake becoming part of their diet instead.


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## Darlyn (Apr 8, 2014)

It's not going to change so speculating is a waste of time.
See Fuscus post for why it won't change.


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## Becceles (Apr 8, 2014)

I can 100% say that YES a corn snake will threaten our native fauna. They will absolutely compete with food. They may not affect the adult animals, but adult animals were once small and needed small prey to grow.


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## champagne (Apr 8, 2014)

Indian Palm Squirrels??? why can't exotics reptiles be kept? because we don't have a big enough voice that's why...


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## Snowman (Apr 8, 2014)

Reptile keeping also came along a lot more recently too. They don't want to make the same mistake they did with previous exotic pets such as birds, cats etc.


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## R33C3 (Apr 8, 2014)

[h=3]
AARK 
AUSTRALIAN ASSOCIATION OF 
REPTILE KEEPERS[/h]

Just a thought


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## Newhere (Apr 8, 2014)

Cypher69 said:


> Obviously "exotic reptiles" is a very generalised term & if exotics were allowed into the country, I do foresee a very stringent process as to what can be kept.
> 
> I know everyone keeps saying, "look what happened with the cane toads, foxes & rabbits..." but can you honestly see the same threat to our natural fauna when, for example, say the corn snake?
> I mean the introduction (on purpose or accidental) of toads, foxes & rabbits were done in an era where environmental impact studies were literally non-existant.
> Myths of corn snake populations in the wild has never been proven. I can't see the corn snake competing or being a threat with a diamond or carpet for the same food source...honestly I can see the corn snake becoming part of their diet instead.


You're just talking about corn snakes, think about all the other reptiles of the world and then do a little survey on how you think they would fit in to our ecosystems and then pick and choose which ones wouldn't really cause any harm and come up with a list and set of rules and regulations to be able to keep exotics. Thats pretty much what you're asking the government to do just to keep a few reptile enthusiasts happy. Asian house geckos would be a good example instead of a corn snake.


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## kitten_pheonix (Apr 8, 2014)

Cypher69 said:


> Obviously "exotic reptiles" is a very generalised term & if exotics were allowed into the country, I do foresee a very stringent process as to what can be kept.
> I know everyone keeps saying, "look what happened with the cane toads, foxes & rabbits..." but can you honestly see the same threat to our natural fauna when, for example, say the corn snake?
> I mean the introduction (on purpose or accidental) of toads, foxes & rabbits were done in an era where environmental impact studies were literally non-existant.
> Myths of corn snake populations in the wild has never been proven. I can't see the corn snake competing or being a threat with a diamond or carpet for the same food source...honestly I can see the corn snake becoming part of their diet instead.



Its not a myth, the government is clearly not going to tell people whete they can find pest species that are wanted in the illegal pet trade now are they. 

A few gov bodies do know the locations.
Corn snakes have the ability to eat animals in very cold envitonments. They also eat other reptiles. Can you imagine what will happen when natives are brumating and a corn snake feels like a feed? Byebye natives. 

Introducing any new species is irresponsible

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champagne said:


> Indian Palm Squirrels??? why can't exotics reptiles be kept? because we don't have a big enough voice that's why...



indian palm squirrels have very stringent regulations 
there are only 5 registered breeders in aus and ALL offspring must be desexed before sold. So if any do escape they cannot reproduce.


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## saximus (Apr 8, 2014)

There is a thread on this very forum full of people boasting about their animals that have escaped. Look in that thread for a couple of the reasons...


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## champagne (Apr 8, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> Its not a myth, the government is clearly not going to tell people whete they can find pest species that are wanted in the illegal pet trade now are they.
> 
> A few gov bodies do know the locations.
> Corn snakes have the ability to eat animals in very cold envitonments. They also eat other reptiles. Can you imagine what will happen when natives are brumating and a corn snake feels like a feed? Byebye natives.
> ...



so what happens if some non desexed animals escape from these registered breeders? they are still a problem in wa but the government are happy to have this exotic breeding on the east coast.

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Some exotics like green iguanas that would get out of control but what would ball pythons or corns really do? the fact that most would be ''designer paint jobs'' most would be picked off by predators anyway... so if having exotics is a problem why should we be allowed to keep natives outside their natural range? there is a higher risk imo because of cross breeding.


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## pinefamily (Apr 8, 2014)

If that was the thread I participated in, it wasn't boasting (not by me anyway). Sharing stories of how snakes escape can only help others, IMO.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 8, 2014)

To all the people who think an exotic colurbrid such as a corn snake would pose no serious threat to the Australian environment should google brown tree snakes in Guam.


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## Snowman (Apr 8, 2014)

Darlyn said:


> It's not going to change so speculating is a waste of time.
> .


Yep this.


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## Cypher69 (Apr 8, 2014)

kitten_pheonix said:


> Its not a myth, the government is clearly not going to tell people whete they can find pest species that are wanted in the illegal pet trade now are they.
> 
> A few gov bodies do know the locations.



That must explain the stories of countless campers & bush walkers found each year, wandering around dazed & confused...as if their memories were erased.

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junglepython2 said:


> To all the people who think an exotic colurbrid such as a corn snake would pose no serious threat to the Australian environment should google brown tree snakes in Guam.



Yes, they're considered an invasive species, "due to a lack of predators on the island."


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## spud_meister (Apr 8, 2014)

Seriously? Look at Brown Tree Snakes in Guam, or Burmese Pythons in Florida. Australia has some very pretty snakes, and there's no need to run the risk of introducing invasive pests.


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## MrThumper (Apr 8, 2014)

If they were allowed....I foresee a post in the future 'who the hell let these not native species into our country'


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## richoman_3 (Apr 8, 2014)

Still dont understand why people would even want exotics
we have some of the best reptiles in the world ... And we want to keep it that way


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## Bushfire (Apr 8, 2014)

While most of the arguments against are all have merit etc etc. The real reason why you cant have any is because that particular interest group has no real power or numbers. Although I argee with the current policy the only way to change it is to be part of a minor party in a hung parliament while holding the balance of power. If that ever happens you might get it through. The science and logic go out the window when the gov needs your support on something. There are hundreds of examples where this has happened at both state and federal levels.


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## Beans (Apr 8, 2014)

So just say for example they goverment allowed us to keep exoctics.

People would be like Awesome finally I can get the african rock python!

Yay right? Nope. Imagine if everyone had an african rock python, and as hatchlings they escaped. Can you imagine the massive damage that would do to native animals?

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Bushfire said:


> While most of the arguments against are all have merit etc etc. The real reason why you cant have any is because that particular interest group has no real power or numbers. Although I argee with the current policy the only way to change it is to be part of a minor party in a hung parliament while holding the balance of power. If that ever happens you might get it through. The science and logic go out the window when the gov needs your support on something. There are hundreds of examples where this has happened at both state and federal levels.



Science and logic don't apply to the abbot gov haha


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## cement (Apr 8, 2014)

Theres no shortage of escaped pet snakes out there, just ask any relocator.

I don't understand why anyone would want exotics.....not when we have our native jags and our native zeb's, they are the very bestestest.


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## Bushfire (Apr 8, 2014)

Beans said:


> So just say for example they goverment allowed us to keep exoctics.
> 
> People would be like Awesome finally I can get the african rock python!
> 
> ...



It may do damage it may not hopefully we never get the opportunity to know however the potential damage means little when politics are involved. I'll paint an extreme picture here but the point is very relevant. Say if I approach the Labour Party and say if you make it legal to keep exotics I can guarantee you an election win do you think they would say no way the environment comes first?? In nsw look at the pressure the shooters party put on gov, we now have hunting in NPs. Farmers in qld, they have cattle grazing in NPs. Loggers in tassie, a section of world heritage delisted. Dredging in world heritage area. In nsw because the community won against a mining company, gov decides to put economic benifits over everything else making enviro impacts basically useless.

the point is just because it is the right thing to do it doesn't always mean that's the path taken. In saying all that I would be amazed if reptile keepers could unite and stand up for itself instead of the infighting, jealousy and divide we see today. Therefore although it's possible to happen it's more improble due to us keepers.


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## Sean_L (Apr 8, 2014)

What Bushfire is saying is true. The reasons WE CANT are purely political.

However the reasons WE SHOULDNT are what SHOULD be discussed.


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## Becceles (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's another good reason. Because by allowing animals to be kept as pets - any animals at all - it relies on common sense, decency, and a good thought process. Unfortunately everyone claims to have these things. Reality is that so few do. Or at least, so few have enough to cover all necessary aspects, many have enough to get them through everyday life.
By allowing these things it relies on people to do the right thing... which never EVER happens.


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## Beans (Apr 8, 2014)

Very well said I agree with all points made 

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## marcus0002 (Apr 9, 2014)

Bushfire said:


> I can guarantee you an election win do you think they would say no way the environment comes first?? In nsw look at the pressure the shooters party put on gov, we now have hunting in NPs. .


I fail to see how hunters shooting foxes and other ferels in national parks under direct supervision of npws rangers is bad for the environment.


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## Retic (Apr 9, 2014)

cement said:


> Theres no shortage of escaped pet snakes out there, just ask any relocator.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would want exotics.....not when we have our native jags and our native zeb's, they are the very bestestest.



LOL. I bet that went over a few heads.

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The simple fact is that if anyone in Australia wants an exotic species just ask around especially in Sydney. You can find quite literally any species you want as countless 1000's are being bred every year. There really is no need to legalise them at all, it wont affect the number in the country.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2014)

Sean_L said:


> What Bushfire is saying is true. The reasons WE CANT are purely political.
> 
> However the reasons WE SHOULDNT are what SHOULD be discussed.



Actually, your first statement is incorrect. The reasons for NOT keeping exotics are NOT purely political - the restrictions on importing exotic animals of all sorts are based on very sound scientific principles, and they were developed when politicians listened to the science and logic of people who knew more about the subjects than they did. That has all changed, and quite spectacularly so in the last eight months. If you want to make a case for the keeping of exotic reptiles, just use the terms "will benefit international trade" and you'll have this lot of charletans eating out of your hand...

Never has the remaining fragile environment in this country been more under threat than it is now - dig it up, cut it down, cover the Reef with dredge spoil... who cares...

Jamie


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## champagne (Apr 9, 2014)

The problem is people who aren't intelligent enough to not have their reptiles escape...

I stated that there is some exotics that would be high risk. More damage is done from land clearing for housing, mining ect then any exotic reptile would do. 

Wouldn't a Darwin getting released in qld pose a bigger risk due to the chance of cross breeding with a coastal or jungle? The fact that parks and wildlife main focus is on the environment and not ''pet reptiles'', the sooner they realise these cross breeding risks and ban all none locality natives to your area the better...


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## zulu (Apr 9, 2014)

Most exotics such as corns have been here in captivity longer than most natives that are still plucked from the wild in some states and territories . The risk of deseases from natives spread to captive corns and boas and other exotics cannot be overstated.


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## Becceles (Apr 9, 2014)

How is a darwin cross breeding with a coastal or jungle going to threaten ANY native wildlife?


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## champagne (Apr 9, 2014)

Becceles said:


> How is a darwin cross breeding with a coastal or jungle going to threaten ANY native wildlife?



yes it would threaten the pure coastal or jungle population genetically....


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2014)

These threads always bring out lots of opinions, theories and assertions which are then stated as facts, which can be quite misleading to newcomers in the reptile game. It seems some members here have a far better idea about Australia's biosecurity requirements than those actually working in the field. 

Of course Australia is going to be conservative with regard to the importation of non-domestic animals, given that the seemingly innocuous release of the Cane Toad has unleashed one of the biggest environmental catastrophes the country has ever seen. It is probably as bad as anything seen on the entire globe so far, and it hasn't stopped yet. And then we can go to Sparrows, Starlings, Mynahs... only in Perth suburbs can you wake up to the sound of honeyeaters and other native birds now, all the other capital cities are infested with these verminous species which have pushed all native species out. Perth, thankfully, is devoid of these invaders, thanks to the Nullarbor Plain and a concerted effort at the western edge of the Nullarbor to keep them out.

If you want to keep exotics, move to the UK, as one member, a long-time critic of Australia's restrictive laws and a respondent in this thread, has done. Any popular species of pet reptile unlucky enough to escape in that part of the world won't last 12 months due to the unfavourable climate, and there is very little natural habitat left, so environmental concerns are few. Australia is regarded as "the home of reptiles" by many scientists. Most exotic species could find a niche in this country which would support their proliferation in the right circumstances. But I guess the grass is always greener, and there will always be people who want, want, want what they can't have.

Why take the risk?

Jamie


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## Snowman (Apr 9, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Actually, your first statement is incorrect. The reasons for NOT keeping exotics are NOT purely political - the restrictions on importing exotic animals of all sorts are based on very sound scientific principles, and they were developed when politicians listened to the science and logic of people who knew more about the subjects than they did. That has all changed, and quite spectacularly so in the last eight months. If you want to make a case for the keeping of exotic reptiles, just use the terms "will benefit international trade" and you'll have this lot of charletans eating out of your hand...
> 
> Never has the remaining fragile environment in this country been more under threat than it is now - dig it up, cut it down, cover the Reef with dredge spoil... who cares...
> 
> Jamie


Couldn't agree more.. Then on the other hand you have over the top regulation. Lets not let the public keep and breed quolls or other native fauna that that could increase the survival of native animals.. As the cane toad marches west I'm sure there are many species that could be preserved in captive stock rather than letting them die out completely... Fortunately no control on cats so that should keep a health balance right! :?
I get there isn't enough funding for all the needed projects and to captive breed animals. How are they missing the public that would do it for free! 

I really cant see much hope in sight for conservation.


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## Becceles (Apr 9, 2014)

champagne said:


> yes it would threaten the pure coastal or jungle population genetically....




And you think that corn snakes will threaten them less than cross breeding?


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Couldn't agree more.. Then on the other hand you have over the top regulation. Lets not let the public keep and breed quolls or other native fauna that that could increase the survival of native animals.. As the cane toad marches west I'm sure there are many species that could be preserved in captive stock rather than letting them die out completely... Fortunately no control on cats so that should keep a health balance right! :?
> I get there isn't enough funding for all the needed projects and to captive breed animals. How are they missing the public that would do it for free!
> 
> I really cant see much hope in sight for conservation.



I absolutely agree with you Snowy - regulation which doesn't keep pace with the changing times is almost guaranteeing further extinctions in this country. You can level natural bush with a bulldozer and literally kill every reptile that lives there to turn it into a shopping centre carpark, but be prosecuted for going in beforehand and catching all the reptiles you can before they're crushed and pulped and their habitat is obliterated... such is the disconnect between the decision-making bodies in this country. It's no wonder there is little respect for the laws & lawmakers...

Jamie


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2014)

I think the problem is that many of the keepers such as champagne only see things as adornments in their snakerooms or lounge rooms - what goes on outside isn't their concern. As much as I would love to keep chameleons or other challenging and gorgeous-looking species, the sad fact is that there's a much bigger picture to be considered, not the least of which is the plundering of and trade in these things in their country of origin. The whole system is so open to corruption and manipulation that the only way to ensure management is to outlaw the lot.

Jamie


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## Snowman (Apr 9, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I think the problem is that many of the keepers such as champagne only see things as adornments in their snakerooms or lounge rooms - what goes on outside isn't their concern. As much as I would love to keep chameleons or other challenging and gorgeous-looking species, the sad fact is that there's a much bigger picture to be considered, not the least of which is the plundering of and trade in these things in their country of origin. The whole system is so open to corruption and manipulation that the only way to ensure management is to outlaw the lot.
> 
> Jamie



The percentage of armchair herpers would be very high. I don't get out much, but I can find a few species in and around Perth. It's interesting the detachment the hobby now has from the wild. In this day and age you can successfully keep reptiles without having a clue about where they come from, their habitat, natural food sources etc etc. The down side is the understanding that comes with observing fauna in their natural environment. Without that, it can be very hard to understand conservation and how fragile ecosystems really are. I also think any reptile keeper that observes the same species as pets they keep in the wild, will gain a much better insight to them.


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## moosenoose (Apr 9, 2014)

Still, you're allowed to keep Cats, dogs, birds, fish, mice, rats, rabbits, pigs, goats & every other thing that has hair or fins...but definitely not allowed to keep something exotic with scales  Hell no! hehe

Quite frankly, I think its a good thing we can't. But lets make it an even playing field. And lets also not have the Antis & Greenies sooking when shooters are out there knocking down a few of them in either State Forests, National Parks or on public or private land.


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## Varanoidea (Apr 9, 2014)

I used to think I wish we could get exotics here in Australia but I like to think I have matured since then and the fact that we can't get them is one of the things I am grateful for despite all my disdain for a lot of the things the government does. I can't see why anyone would want exotics in the first place. I for one am proud of the diverse range of herps that we are known for and I don't want it to change.


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## Snowman (Apr 9, 2014)

moosenoose said:


> Still, you're allowed to keep Cats, dogs, birds, fish, mice, rats, rabbits, pigs, goats & every other thing that has hair or fins...but definitely not allowed to keep something exotic with scales  Hell no! hehe
> 
> .



Unfortunately a lot of those things came out on the first fleet, bar the fish I guess. The government does seem to be tightening the noose on exotic fish and birds. With reptile keeping coming in so late in the game they had a chance to try and squash it before it got a foot hold like all the other exotic pets that got her before conservation was even thought of. 
100 years ago they released a heap on laughing kookaburras into the SW of WA with the idea of wiping out tiger snake numbers. The kookaburras don't belong here so just another exotic the reptiles have to compete with. Even if it is from the same continent.


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## zulu (Apr 9, 2014)

Yeh the government has sought of learnt their lesson in a way,exotic fish in in many waterways ,plants and animals ,they will not stop bringing things in when they get powerful lobby groups that want them like the farmers federation etc
They tried to squash the reptile exotic trade but it is very prolific all round australia,not just sydney ,already there is wild populations of red eared sliders in waterways around sydney , brisbane , macleay river and others.


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## -Peter (Apr 9, 2014)

Most exotic and feral animals came in under some form of official countenance. No exotic reptiles have been imported without restriction on the breeding and reallocation of them or their offspring according to DPI and as such can never have been legally been sold, exchanged or gifted to private reptile keepers. Meaning, no hobbyist has ever been legally allowed to keep exotic reptiles in australia except in NSW where they were held under special license with caveats attached. These licenses are not valid outside the state of NSW and are not transferrable.


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## Snowman (Apr 9, 2014)

Someone offered geckos as a swap for a bike a friend was selling in NSW.. The picture of the geckos was interesting. They are obviously leopard gex.


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## champagne (Apr 9, 2014)

lol I don't want to keep exotics and would be happy if none were ever in this country including jags, zebras and none native gtps but if you think that exotic reptiles would have an impact on native wildlife bigger then all the feral cats or habitat destruction that's is done in the name of ''progress'' then you really need to open your eyes to the real problems facing our native wildlife...

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Pythoninfinite said:


> I think the problem is that many of the keepers such as champagne only see things as adornments in their snakerooms or lounge rooms - what goes on outside isn't their concern. As much as I would love to keep chameleons or other challenging and gorgeous-looking species, the sad fact is that there's a much bigger picture to be considered, not the least of which is the plundering of and trade in these things in their country of origin. The whole system is so open to corruption and manipulation that the only way to ensure management is to outlaw the lot.
> 
> Jamie



when did I say I see reptiles as adornments? I understand its easy to grab the pitchfork with the other inbred...


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## reptinate (Apr 9, 2014)

Why do people have to call each other names because they have different opinions? I'd love to be able to own a few exotics. I love our natives but there are some beautiful exotics too.

I do understand the concern though. But is keeping natives outside their natural range any different? Doesn't that have the potential to cause harm to an areas wildlife and also mix the genetics of the local populations? So isn't there twice the threat? Yet people have no problem with keeping natives all the way from the west in the east, or from the south in the north, etc. What if Australia was not one country, would people then be opposed to keeping those same reptiles outside their natural range?

If reptiles escaping was a big threat then shouldn't we be seeing a lot of natives establishing populations outside their range all over the country? I'm not sure, but Ball Pythons aren't causing big problems in America are they? And they're extremely popular there and have been keeping them for a long time. And again I'm not sure, but others like Retics aren't establishing populations are they?

Is it a bit hypocritical to be against owning certain exotic reptiles while owning exotic birds, fish, dogs, cats, rabbits, etc? Could it work if we were only allowed to own certain exotic reptiles? Doesn't have to be every and any.

I'm no expert and I'm just putting forward my thoughts, and my questions are honest ones.


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## Cunninghamskinks (Apr 9, 2014)

Just a thought
is it possible to de sex reptiles? then they cant breed if they escape
just wondering


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## SamNabz (Apr 9, 2014)

This question gets asked a lot, which isn't an issue. However, at the end of the day the result is always the same..

The _reasons_ for why they are not allowed (e.g scientific principles, native animal safety and so on) will *always* outweigh the _reason_ they should be allowed (e.g "I just want one").


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 9, 2014)

champagne said:


> lol I don't want to keep exotics and would be happy if none were ever in this country including jags, zebras and none native gtps but if you think that exotic reptiles would have an impact on native wildlife bigger then all the feral cats or habitat destruction that's is done in the name of ''progress'' then you really need to open your eyes to the real problems facing our native wildlife...
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



You didn't say you see them as adornments - it is simply the impression I got from your posts in this thread. 

Can you tell me what you meant by your last sentence? If it's what I think you mean, you're looking for a suspension matey...

Jamie


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## moosenoose (Apr 9, 2014)

To be honest, there are steps of controlling exotic snakes in collections. They do it currently with those who hold the international licenses, yet I don't see Boas slithering all over the place. The trouble is the government/s just toss it into the "to hard basket". If they knew there was a dollar in it they'd be all for it. It'd be as simple as making another license level which is a step up from the advanced. Ensure the room the snakes are kept in are also escape proof as part of the requirements & have the animals microchipped. Its really not that hard.

Many people squeal that its all about the diseases they might carry. The trouble is that they are still arriving anyway, and as such a damn sight harder to regulate.


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## cement (Apr 9, 2014)

The funny thing is Australia is the land of the reptile! We have every natural environment type niche catered for, and so hand in hand, we have every type of reptile available. If you want a big snake, get an olive or a scrub. Even a mid size scrub will sort the men from the boys. If you want a nice docile complacent snake get a stimmy, or a diamond if you want something a bit bigger. If you want it green, blue, yellow, red, brown, black or a mix of each, its all here readily accessible. If you want a challenge that will get the heart pumping and test your mettle, get a lacie or any of the worlds most venomous snakes that are all coincidently....here as well. 
We also have the opportunity to work with exotics or even crocs and alligators if you volunteer or work in one of our many parks or zoos. And if your up for it, go visit the tip of Cape York or other parts of the top end and get up close and personal with the real big boys.

Its all here, so much so, that you cannot possibly even keep and learn to breed, every native australian herp in your lifetime. With more new species coming on the scene even to this day.

But as mentioned if your too big, or unsatisfied by the Australian diversity, then just move overseas to a country that allows you to keep whatever. Stuffed if i would give up residency in the best country in the world just to keep a snake.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2014)

cement said:


> But as mentioned if your too big, or unsatisfied by the Australian diversity, then just move overseas to a country that allows you to keep whatever. Stuffed if i would give up residency in the best country in the world just to keep a snake.



That's only a problem if you consider Australia to be the best country in the world 

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moosenoose said:


> Many people squeal that its all about the diseases they might carry. The trouble is that they are still arriving anyway, and as such a damn sight harder to regulate.



That is the crux of the matter, they are still arriving and being bred in increasing numbers but as long as they are illegal everything is fine LOL


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 10, 2014)

Ash, you must mix in very different circles to those I inhabit. For sure there are a lot of exotics in Australia, but from what you & others say it sounds like they're in teeming numbers. There's a market for them for sure, and certainly there's a network that allows a keeper with the interest to pretty much get what they want. But as I said, your network must be very different to mine. The thing you always overlook is the support of the illegal collection and laundering of these animals from other parts of the world. Just the same as ivory and rhino horn - just because it happens doesn't mean we surrender to the morons who are doing this stuff. Just so you can have some covetted species in your loungeroom.

I'm not a nationalist btw - Australia just happens to be the country in which I was born and continue to live. I'm far from proud of it anymore.

Jamie


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## wokka (Apr 10, 2014)

If more animals were allowed to move in and out of Australia legally it would minimise many of the risks and incentives which currently exist with the illegal trade, "under the table".
Unfortunately we see on a daily basis through all the various royal commissions and ICAC enquiries etc, that our decision makers can be influenced by self interest, greed and political control.
I have yet to hear the advantages of illegal import and export over the legal trade. I dont know if our leaders believe if it is illegal it doesn't happen. Are our rules written by a bunch of ostriches?


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 10, 2014)

wokka said:


> If more animals were allowed to move in and out of Australia legally it would minimise many of the risks and incentives which currently exist with the illegal trade, "under the table".
> Unfortunately we see on a daily basis through all the various royal commissions and ICAC enquiries etc, that our decision makers can be influenced by self interest, greed and political control.
> I have yet to hear the advantages of illegal import and export over the legal trade. I dont know if our leaders believe if it is illegal it doesn't happen. Are our rules written by a bunch of ostriches?



Hi Warwick, I'd be the first in line to criticise the stupid lack of consistency in many of our laws & regs, especially with regard to exotic animals in Oz - birds vs reptiles for example... the inconsistency is bizarre, given that there are now many species of birds (parrots) which weren't here10 or 20 years ago are now common and "legal" in collections. Conure species for example have skyrocketed in the last 20 years.

But the state of politics in this country now is worth despairing over - as you say, self-interest, greed and control now prevail as the reasons for being in politics. Not everyone, but many, and they worm their way into positions of influence with duplicitous, manipulated messages. The big problem remains however... no matter the pros & cons of exotic reptiles in this country, it is still almost impossible to assure the provenance of anything coming in from overseas, except by building protocols with actual breeders in the country of origin - as was done with the legal imports of Macaws and other species in the 1990s. This is very expensive and time consuming, and consequently makes the first animals off the rank extremely expensive - far more so than anything imported illegally and sold directly into the market. The last thing that the desirable species in their own (often threatened) habitat needs is another big market to open up to absorb even more wild caught animals.

Philosophically I'm not opposed, but practically it would pose huge problems. probably not insoluble, but the amount of bureaucratic time and therefore the expense, would make it difficult for any government to justify.

Jamie


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## MR_BALMAIN69 (Apr 10, 2014)

NOT ONE EXOTIC IS WORTH ONE AUSSIE REPTILE !!!!

To the people keeping exotics at the moment , remember to give your jealous mates a lot of love , their usually the ones who report you !!

No need to go into a long dialogue it's a simple NO.


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## moosenoose (Apr 10, 2014)

The Yanks don't care...they've got just about everything. Just because you grow apples doesn't mean you can't enjoy eating a....a pineapple


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## Sean_L (Apr 10, 2014)

Thats one of the things that bothers me the most, the old 'its already happening illegally, if we made it legal then there would be more control and less danger'. 
Thats such a naive view of the world! The sort of people that are already doing it illegally arent going to suddenly turn around and get a licence and start on the road to being the perfect citizen. Thats the biggest load Ive ever heard! If you make it legal all it will do is make it easier for those importing and dealing illegally to continue to do so. 
Taking a step like that would be little more than capitulating to criminals. You know what, everyone already speeds on the highway, I see it all the time, maybe if we raise the speed limit to 120 everyone will just drive safely at that speed. HA! Those that were speeding beforehand will just drive 130. Its inevitable. Some people are just numbskulls, and always will be, especially those that are already blatently endangering this country's wildlife for nothing more than their own greed.

i have no idea about the current punishments but in my opinion if youre caught with exotics you should be fine at least $3000 for EVERY animal and your licence suspended for 5 years. If youre caught again you should get jail time and never be allowed to keep any wildlife again. Period.

- - - Updated - - -

And thats the weakest metaphor Ive ever heard. WE GROW ENOUGH PRODUCE TO SUPPLY AN ENTIRE FRUIT SHOP! (metaphorically speaking of course, im not actually talking about fruit) And youre still so greedy and self absorbed you want more! Leave the country. Please, for the good of everyone else here.


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## wokka (Apr 10, 2014)

Pythoninfinite said:


> Hi Warwick, I'd be the first in line to criticise the stupid lack of consistency in many of our laws & regs, especially with regard to exotic animals in Oz - birds vs reptiles for example... the inconsistency is bizarre, given that there are now many species of birds (parrots) which weren't here10 or 20 years ago are now common and "legal" in collections. Conure species for example have skyrocketed in the last 20 years.
> 
> But the state of politics in this country now is worth despairing over - as you say, self-interest, greed and control now prevail as the reasons for being in politics. Not everyone, but many, and they worm their way into positions of influence with duplicitous, manipulated messages. The big problem remains however... no matter the pros & cons of exotic reptiles in this country, it is still almost impossible to assure the provenance of anything coming in from overseas, except by building protocols with actual breeders in the country of origin - as was done with the legal imports of Macaws and other species in the 1990s. This is very expensive and time consuming, and consequently makes the first animals off the rank extremely expensive - far more so than anything imported illegally and sold directly into the market. The last thing that the desirable species in their own (often threatened) habitat needs is another big market to open up to absorb even more wild caught animals.
> 
> ...


Jamie as you know i used to operate a licenced quarantine facitity and have worn the expense of extablishing import and export protocols. My issue is that by not allowing legal movement of animals they drive it under the table and in doing so have no idea what is going on.If you do ( or dont do) the same thing the same thing happens! Making legal import and export illegal isn't working so something needs to change!


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## champagne (Apr 10, 2014)

Sean_L said:


> Thats one of the things that bothers me the most, the old 'its already happening illegally, if we made it legal then there would be more control and less danger'.
> Thats such a naive view of the world! The sort of people that are already doing it illegally arent going to suddenly turn around and get a licence and start on the road to being the perfect citizen. Thats the biggest load Ive ever heard! If you make it legal all it will do is make it easier for those importing and dealing illegally to continue to do so.
> Taking a step like that would be little more than capitulating to criminals. You know what, everyone already speeds on the highway, I see it all the time, maybe if we raise the speed limit to 120 everyone will just drive safely at that speed. HA! Those that were speeding beforehand will just drive 130. Its inevitable. Some people are just numbskulls, and always will be, especially those that are already blatently endangering this country's wildlife for nothing more than their own greed.
> 
> ...



have you actually stopped and looked into what you are talking about? it has been proven that giving people a legal avenue to do things actually does decrease the illegal activities... 

I don't want designer exotics in this country but if there was legal ways to bring them in at least the reptiles would be shipped in much better conditions and we could quarantine and screen new arrivals.


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## junglepython2 (Apr 10, 2014)

So with that reasoning maybe we should also legalise the importation of heroin, seeming as it is already happening and everyone opposed to it has there head in the sand.


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## Focus (Apr 10, 2014)

I've never quite understood why this subject always becomes so contentious. Exotics can't be legalised for the myriad of reasons that people have pointed out, and really the only reason to bring them in is because "I want one." 

It's true that they are here already (so all the "i want one" people can pretty much go for it I anyway I guess), but not in the numbers that would result if they were legalised, making concerns about diseases and escapees valid in my opinion. And [MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] has pointed out the stresses on the wild populations that the trade of exotics contributes to.

Having said that, what on earth does "Australian reptiles are the best!" mean? At what? Arm-wrestling? Chemistry? We should be be absolutely grateful for chance to keep our natives, but "best" has no objective meaning. And people saying that exotics are ugly must have very selective "Aussie only" tastes. Just because they shouldn't be here doesn't mean we can't appreciate that some are spectacular.

Be grateful for what we have, and appreciate what others have. Why all the drama?


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## Sean_L (Apr 10, 2014)

> have you actually stopped and looked into what you are talking about? it has been proven that giving people a legal avenue to do things actually does decrease the illegal activities...



Only in the eyes of those oblivious to whats actually right and wrong. 

Making something legal or illegal doesnt make it any less right or wrong. If they legalised the harvesting of old growth forests (wchich they do when they can get away with it) then more people would do it legally and subsiquently there will be less illegal activity by default, because those that were doing it before in secret are now legally allowed to (same or more activity, but its now legal, so therefore there's less 'illegal' activity). 
BUT ITS STILL WRONG TO DO IT. 
People that can hardly look after themselves (not saying that you can't in particular) should not be allowed to harbour exotics that can do so much potential harm in the wrong hands. Risking exotics of any quantity in the country is WRONG, therefore, whether its legal or not.... whether more or less people are committing a crime..... there will still be more people doing something WRONG, if its legalised.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 10, 2014)

wokka said:


> Jamie as you know i used to operate a licenced quarantine facitity and have worn the expense of extablishing import and export protocols. My issue is that by not allowing legal movement of animals they drive it under the table and in doing so have no idea what is going on.If you do ( or dont do) the same thing the same thing happens! Making legal import and export illegal isn't working so something needs to change!



Yep Warwick, I think you have a better understanding than most about the protocols of import & export of creatures, and I also agree that if we keep on doing what we've always done, we'll keep on getting what we've always got... which is this standoff and continuing tensions between the practical and philosophical. But what we do have here now is a system that makes management relatively easy - if you have an exotic and you get caught, there is no question that you are breaking the law - easy for the authorities. I'm making no value judgement either way about this - it's just the way it is, and I can't see the authorities wanting to complicate their tasks any more than this by having to prove provenance to establish legality.

I can make a list which more or less demonstrates my opinions on matters exotic...

1. I would love to have some of more beautiful critters from other parts of the world - Chameleons, some of the incredible Vipers for example. I'm old, I'm no longer a stamp collector, and I've learned to rationalise my choices about these things. No pythons - we have more than enough here already.
2. Presumeably, by selecting species carefully, the seed animals could be assuredly captive bred from disease free facilities. Thus it would be fairly easy to put up the protocols needed to manage import & quarantine (this is what was done for the bird imports in the 90s, although that operated on an "all in, all out" principle - if one bird got sick or returned a positive blood test, all birds in that stream were destroyed). The cost of the first animals out of the system would be considerable - probably far more than illegally imported animals, which undoubtedly would continue to come in and blend with the legal stuff, as happens with birds... I don't believe that allowing legal imports would slow illegal imports much at all, so disease potential would remain, could even escalate in the short term. Having said that however, I'm not sure what disease threats actually exist - we all assume that do for reptiles as they do for birds, but the bird thing is different - the potential for catastrophic disease outbreaks in birds, especially poultry, is a real threat...
3. OK, so I've got my Panther Chameleons and my Eyelash Vipers out of quarantine, and I've undertaken to import antivenom every 6 months at my own expense in case of accidents (a licence condition...). But my mate, who envies me knows someone who knows someone who will sell him the same animals (his tastes are identical to mine) for a third of the price I paid for my legal animals. My animals are captive bred and pose no threat to wild populations, his were picked up in some market in Thailand, obviously illegally collected wild-caught. The question is - once you open the floodgates, and demand escalates astronomically in the first few years, how do you manage the environmentally sound supply of captive-bred animals to satisfy a very big initial market?

The problem is not just one of what keepers think they want here, it also goes to the (almost impossible) management of the international wildlife trade. How many members here would harshly judge someone they see wearing boots made from the skins of pythons or some unfortunate lizard species? Do they stop to think that killing those animals for the fashion trade is just as damaging for the species as making a live example available for them to keep in their loungeroom? Environmentally, it may as well be dead, and in some cases it would be better off dead.

So, I see a very few, mostly selfish advantages in allowing the market for exotic reptiles to develop more in this country, but there are many more reasons, both domestic and elsewhere, why the status quo with it's self-limiting nature, should remain as it is now.

Jamie


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## butters (Apr 10, 2014)

If they were legalized my only interests would be in New Zealand, Madagascan and New Caledonian geckos, tortoises and chameleons. 
All of which are under pressure in some way in their natural habitat.

Why these species? Mostly because there isn't really a close native equivalent and if we do it's not in the hobby. Closest we have to things like a star tortoise is a shingleback. Not really the same.

So even if they were able to be legally imported I would be less inclined to get any purely on moral grounds because I may be contributing to their decline in the wild. If I could get animals of known provenance that were captive bred legally I would do so.
In reality I could probably get all of my wishes now, in Australia, through illegal means but the simple fact that's it's illegal stops me from doing so.
I'm happy with what we do have but that doesn't mean I don't occasionally think " what if".


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## Merkinball (Apr 10, 2014)

There have been a lot of very passionate posts on this subject, from both sides of the argument, and there have been many good points. It is quite obvious that the people on this forum and those replying to this post are very passionate about reptiles and would love the opportunity to own one of many extraordinary exotic species. The issue I have with potentially legalising exotics is this, and it is sparked by a post I saw today on Facebook. We as a collective whole have no representation as a hobby, and we are reaching a point where breeding of reptiles is becoming both a business and a fad of sorts. The post on facebook spoke of pricing of Bearded Dragons and the number of them now saturating pet stores etc. to the point of them being worth next to nothing and discarded in whichever way possible. So the point I am trying to make is that as the hobby grows and people begin to breed more and more animals (intentionally or not) we see more and more animals struggling to find homes, or mistreated or worse. So without any sort of national guidelines or rules and regulations that are enforced, the hobby in my opinion would not be able to cope with an influx of desirable exotics being bred hand over fist to meet demand to a point that animals begin to suffer at the hands of those within the hobby. In my opinion the hobby is almost at a point that we will need a collective direction, bringing more species to the table is not going to help this, and should really be at the back of our minds if we want the hobby to move forward sustainably, and most importantly with the health and wellbeing of our animals as paramount.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2014)

Focus said:


> I've never quite understood why this subject always becomes so contentious. Exotics can't be legalised for the myriad of reasons that people have pointed out, and really the only reason to bring them in is because "I want one."
> 
> It's true that they are here already (so all the "i want one" people can pretty much go for it I anyway I guess), but not in the numbers that would result if they were legalised, making concerns about diseases and escapees valid in my opinion. And [MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] has pointed out the stresses on the wild populations that the trade of exotics contributes to.
> 
> ...



Yes the 'Aussie reptiles are the best' thing always makes me laugh. Every country has wonderful beautiful reptiles and it is fantastic to have access to them all, my personal favourites are from South and Central America but I dont feel the need to denigrate other reptiles to somehow boost them in my mind.

- - - Updated - - -



Pythoninfinite said:


> Ash, you must mix in very different circles to those I inhabit. For sure there are a lot of exotics in Australia, but from what you & others say it sounds like they're in teeming numbers. There's a market for them for sure, and certainly there's a network that allows a keeper with the interest to pretty much get what they want. But as I said, your network must be very different to mine. The thing you always overlook is the support of the illegal collection and laundering of these animals from other parts of the world. Just the same as ivory and rhino horn - just because it happens doesn't mean we surrender to the morons who are doing this stuff. Just so you can have some covetted species in your loungeroom.
> 
> I'm not a nationalist btw - Australia just happens to be the country in which I was born and continue to live. I'm far from proud of it anymore.
> 
> Jamie



Jamie yes I think we must move in different circles or of course used to as I dont live there anymore.
I certainly dont support the collection and laundering of reptiles, I have no WC reptiles in my collection and try to avoid buying them. Almost everything is available as captive bred nowadays although they tend to have a much more relaxed attitude to it in Europe.


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## Klaery (Apr 10, 2014)

I have a few strong feelings on the topic but Jamie has already covered everything I have said and more. I was wearing my finger out hitting the like button! 



Pythoninfinite said:


> Hi Warwick, I'd be the first in line to criticise the stupid lack of consistency in many of our laws & regs, especially with regard to exotic animals in Oz - birds vs reptiles for example... the inconsistency is bizarre, given that there are now many species of birds (parrots) which weren't here10 or 20 years ago are now common and "legal" in collections. Conure species for example have skyrocketed in the last 20 years.



I would be the first the criticize it, well second after you I guess  (even though I have an f2 from those animals chewing my shirt as I type this). That big import was a while ago though and although there is still a push there has not been legal importation of parrots for some time that I know of? 

Talking inconsistencies though fish are what really scare me! I don't know what it is like now but only a few years ago (when I was around it a bit) it was loose... Very loose. I have heard it is tightening up but geeze, by what yardstick.


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## Cypher69 (Apr 10, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> So with that reasoning maybe we should also legalise the importation of heroin, seeming as it is already happening and everyone opposed to it has there head in the sand.



I've never understood the need for drastic, extreme & exaggerated comparisons to try & validate a point.


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## borntobnude (Apr 10, 2014)

Cypher69 said:


> I've never understood the need for drastic, extreme & exaggerated comparisons to try & validate a point.



Although, it works for ME!! 

- - - Updated - - -



boa said:


> That's only a problem if you consider Australia to be the best country in the world
> 
> It is !! and according to most of my current work mates it is far better than where you are -- as 8 of ten of them have now become citizens . and the other 2 Never want to go back . :lol:
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


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## junglepython2 (Apr 10, 2014)

Cypher69 said:


> I've never understood the need for drastic, extreme & exaggerated comparisons to try & validate a point.



That's OK, I never understood the notion that the fact an illegal activity was occurring was sound and reasonable logic to legalise it.


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## champagne (Apr 10, 2014)

Cypher69 said:


> I've never understood the need for drastic, extreme & exaggerated comparisons to try & validate a point.



Lack of intelligence is generally the need.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> That's OK, I never understood the notion that the fact an illegal activity was occurring was sound and reasonable logic to legalise it.



Has anyone used that as a reason to legalise it ?

- - - Updated - - -



borntobnude said:


> Although, it works for ME!!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


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## junglepython2 (Apr 10, 2014)

boa said:


> Has anyone used that as a reason to legalise it ?



Post 64 and 65 were alluding to it.

In all seriousness other then the guise of "better control" and the "I want" attitude of a few reptile keepers is there any real pro's of legalising exotics? Because if there isn't there are many many negatives.


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## bdav70 (Apr 10, 2014)

Yepp everyone has covered it but think rabbits, foxes, cane toads and camels in the outback and think of the damage exotic snakes could inflict if the conditions were right on many of our small marsupials and bird life who haven't evolved with such predators around and are more a less defenceless. You can really get a perfect storm brewing kind of like how large pythons flourish in the Everglades of Florida in America and become a huge and dangerous problem 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Becceles (Apr 10, 2014)

All in all it comes down to 2 simple things.

1. Reason to do it - Because people want them
2. Reason not to do it - Countless.

Simple.


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## Swampdonkey (Apr 10, 2014)

Probably because reptiles are some of the most potentially damaging of imports . Look at what is happening in the Florida everglades and look what an Australian native snake has done on the island of Guam.


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## bredli (Apr 10, 2014)

People always think the grass is greener on the other side. Eg if people could only keep exotics here and not natives, those people would want to keep the natives. I am very happy with my grass.


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## butters (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't think snakes would be a major threat to non snake wildlife in most areas of Australia for the simple fact that our natives are used to dealing with snakes. If there is a habitat in Australia suitable there is already a species present. We have some of the most venomous land snakes in the world and also some of the largest pythons.
If natives weren't equipped to deal with them they'd be gone already. Australia is the land of snakes. I think our natives snakes would be more at risk than other wildlife through competition for available space and resources. A comparison would be red eared sliders and how they out compete indigenous species.

The examples given above by another poster are areas that didn't have an equivalent reptile already present. To compete in Australia an import would have to have a pretty clear advantage over natives and prey would have to unused to predation by a similar predator. Some may fit the bill but the majority probably wouldn't.

Worst case in my opinion would be a poisonous species. We already have one of the worst of those introduced intentionally and look what it has done. If cane toads weren't poisonous do you think their establishment here would be as successful or dramatic?
At the end of the day whatever we think it doesn't matter. Imports are illegal and will stay that way for the foreseeable future. The possible risks far out way the benefits and I'm quite happy with the way things are now. 
Sure there are species I wouldn't mind having but I don't need them and if I did I could always move.
Boa did although I am sure there were other reasons than just the reptiles for his move.


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## Retic (Apr 10, 2014)

butters said:


> Boa did although I am sure there were other reasons than just the reptiles for his move.



Yes, reptiles were the bonus


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## Lachie3112 (Apr 10, 2014)

How about we stop messing around with nature. There's a reason we've got the wildlife we have, and there is no reason to introduce anymore animals because the cons far outweigh the benefits. I don't want to see Australia become a zoo of sorts because people want to keep something that's not native here. There have been innumerable cases of people who cannot prevent their animals from escaping, so why increase the risks in stuffing up our ecosystem with more foreign species. 

An argument I've seen tossed around is: "make it legal for people to own non-native reptiles because it's already happening illegally". I disagree in two ways:
1. I believe that most non-natives are kept by people who didn't know they were illegal in the first place, so regulating it on a license system probably would not stop people keeping them off license.
2. Why not introduce people to what species we have natively? We have a huge range of wildlife in Australia, and yet hardly any of them are kept as pets. Many of our native mammals have potential to be great pets, if only people would give them a chance. Take Sugar-gliders, for example: They make great, fun pets, and yet in Australia there are few cases of people keeping them. Unfortunately they're most popular in the USA.

Stop all this discussion about keeping non-native reptiles, it probably won't happen, and it definitely shouldn't. Instead, consider talking about the benefits of keeping native wildlife and maybe then we may be able to keep more of our native species, rather than having to jump through so many regulations just to keep a possum.


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## longqi (Apr 11, 2014)

2 Gaboon vipers in Jakarta
4 Black mambas in Surabaya
1 Western timber rattler in Bali

These were all escapees in the last 3 years
Luckily they were caught and destroyed
What if someone was bitten??


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## Retic (Apr 11, 2014)

longqi said:


> 2 Gaboon vipers in Jakarta
> 4 Black mambas in Surabaya
> 1 Western timber rattler in Bali
> 
> ...



Yes definitely a problem, its something that has always been on my mind with so many illegal exotics in Australia. I know there are Vipers, Rattlers, Cobras etc any of which would cause mayhem if they escaped.


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## wokka (Apr 11, 2014)

junglepython2 said:


> Post 64 and 65 were alluding to it.
> 
> In all seriousness other then the guise of "better control" and the "I want" attitude of a few reptile keepers is there any real pro's of legalising exotics? Because if there isn't there are many many negatives.



As the author of post #64 please note that i am not advocating legalising import of exotic reptiles .My understanding is that it is possible to import exotic reptiles subject to meeting importation protocols (which can primarily only be satified by zoos). The same situation exists with export .
My concern is that the "ostrich" approach of thinking all is well by sweeping activity under the table gives a false sense of security. It maintains a black market which in turn maintains prices to make the rewards outway the risks , and so encourage illegal activities. 
If a better legal conduit were available to import and export reptiles, and for that matter all Australian wildlife, it should improve the welfare of the trafficed animals, monitor and minimise disease risks, reduce the black market for illegally trafficed animals, increase reporting of illegally trafficed animals.
For example, my observation is that very few dogs or cats are smuggled in and out of Australia as a legel alternative exists. Those animals that do get legally moved are monitored in both pre embarkation and post arrival facilities and can be tracked if risks are latter realised. The same could be done with all wildlife after performing the usual risk assesssment.
Although a better alternative may be zero movement of animals the fact is that that cant be enforced. The system is broke so it needs fixing!


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## champagne (Apr 11, 2014)

bdav70 said:


> You can really get a perfect storm brewing kind of like how large pythons flourish in the Everglades of Florida in America and become a huge and dangerous problem



The whole everglades thing is political bs, it is purely to get large pythons out of the usa because of pressure from uneducated voters... it has been proven that very few are actually in the everglades, which none have been ''designer morphs'' that most keepers have. Also only the smaller Burmese pythons have been able to survive the winter not the huge man eating monsters the media love to report on. They are having very little impact on the environment and a lot are being eating by the predators in the area. They should still be removed as they don't belong there but couldn't the same be said for our large native pythons outside their natural range? large scrubbies, olives or Oenpelli released in south east queensland could cause the political action.


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## wokka (Apr 11, 2014)

bdav70 said:


> Yepp everyone has covered it but think rabbits, foxes, cane toads and camels in the outback and think of the damage exotic snakes could inflict if the conditions were right on many of our small marsupials and bird life who haven't evolved with such predators around and are more a less defenceless. You can really get a perfect storm brewing kind of like how large pythons flourish in the Everglades of Florida in America and become a huge and dangerous problem
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Surely all you need to do is to make it illegal to dump unwanted reptiles and that will fix the problem! Please excuse my sarcasm


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## Klaery (Apr 11, 2014)

champagne said:


> The whole everglades thing is political bs, it is purely to get large pythons out of the usa because of pressure from uneducated voters... it has been proven that very few are actually in the everglades, which none have been ''designer morphs'' that most keepers have. Also only the smaller Burmese pythons have been able to survive the winter not the huge man eating monsters the media love to report on. They are having very little impact on the environment and a lot are being eating by the predators in the area. They should still be removed as they don't belong there but couldn't the same be said for our large native pythons outside their natural range? large scrubbies, olives or Oenpelli released in south east queensland could cause the political action.



You just making this stuff up? Science disagrees.

Reed, R.N., J.D. Willson, G.H. Rodda, and M.E. Dorcas.2012. Ecological correlates of invasion impact for Burmese pythons in Florida. Integrative Zoology 7:254-270.

Dorcas, M.E., J.D. Willson, R.N. Reed, R.W. Snow, M.R. Rochford, M.A. Miller, W.E. Mehsaka, Jr., P.T. Andreadis, F.J. Mazzotti, C.M. Romagosa, K.M. Hart. 2012. Severe Mammal Declines Coincide with Proliferation of Invasive Burmese Pythons in Everglades National Park. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Dorcas, M.E., J.D. Willson, and J.W. Gibbons. 2011. Can invasive Burmese pythons inhabit temperate regions of the southeastern United States? Biological Invasions. DOI: 10.1007/s10530-010-9869-6.


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## cement (Apr 11, 2014)

wokka said:


> For example, my observation is that very few dogs or cats are smuggled in and out of Australia as a legel alternative exists. Those animals that do get legally moved are monitored in both pre embarkation and post arrival facilities and can be tracked if risks are latter realised. The same could be done with all wildlife after performing the usual risk assesssment.
> Although a better alternative may be zero movement of animals the fact is that that cant be enforced. The system is broke so it needs fixing!



Dogs and cats are two of our worst feral pests Warwick. _Because_ they are legal.
If risks are realised later?? Now your talking cane toads.
The only real problem with the system is that it isnt properly enforced. A % of illegal activity will always occur no matter what the law says. But thats all the black market is, a small %.


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## -Peter (Apr 11, 2014)

Zoos, over the years, have had an over abundance of reptiles that they have bred. either inadvertantly of not. In the 70's there were so many rhinosaurus iguanas at zoos and parks. Wonder what happened to them. Taronga had large numbers of sliders in their waterways, palm squirrels in the pheonix palms, exotic birds wandering around, people slipping out the backdoor with import loophole reptiles. Those were the days


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## champagne (Apr 11, 2014)

Klaery said:


> You just making this stuff up? Science disagrees.
> 
> Reed, R.N., J.D. Willson, G.H. Rodda, and M.E. Dorcas.2012. Ecological correlates of invasion impact for Burmese pythons in Florida. Integrative Zoology 7:254-270.
> 
> ...



like I said uneducated political pressure... it has been proven that the larger Burmese cant thermo regulate in the temperatures experienced during winter so therefor die... did you actually read the papers you posted??? the Burmese they used to try and claim they can survive were all under 3meters. Most of the Burmese that are caught are under this 3 meter mark not the man eaters that are reported. 

The decline in mammal population has nothing to do with the massive amounts of development in Florida... its easier for the politician to blame the Burmese pet trade and not their fat back pockets from developers.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 11, 2014)

-Peter said:


> Zoos, over the years, have had an over abundance of reptiles that they have bred. either inadvertantly of not. In the 70's there were so many rhinosaurus iguanas at zoos and parks. Wonder what happened to them. Taronga had large numbers of sliders in their waterways, palm squirrels in the pheonix palms, exotic birds wandering around, people slipping out the backdoor with import loophole reptiles. Those were the days



Those were the days indeed! I remember being given two Greek Tortoises by the then director of the Perth Zoo in the early 60s when I was at school - they had been handed in and the zoo didn't want them. They used to roam my backyard and come for treats when I banged the bottom of a saucepan with a spoon. I had them for about 5 years until they were stolen ! Nobody really cared in those days...

Jamie


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## Klaery (Apr 11, 2014)

Firstly the paper shows that even during a very *abnormally cold* period that animals still survived. Other than that I'll leave it alone.. Can't argue with that kind of attitude.


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 11, 2014)

Cold "snaps" rarely kill tropical reptiles - prolonged periods of cold weather do, however. Green Iguanas and other supposedly fragile species also live quite well in Florida, because apart from occasional brief periods of cold weather, it is otherwise a very mild climate, hence the Winnebago migration in winter. There is no doubt that there has been a focussed political agenda in the US to generate negative attitudes to the breeding, sale and keeping of large constrictors, but the issue of Burms and other large constrictors in the Everglades is strictly a separate one, despite the linking of the issues to suit the various propagandas.

Jamie


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## Owzi (Apr 11, 2014)

Interesting read from the Barkers regarding the Burm's in the Everglades-
http://vpi.com/sites/default/files/Snow_OpenLTR_001_4.pdf

How many exotic species would be required to satisfy the pet trade?
I think we are lucky enough in Australia to have the species we do.
At the same time I think if say a private keeper had a Burmese Python in Melbourne that was captive born, been thoroughly vet checked & given the all clear- what threat would that pose? Escapes are the best example in this thread of what would be a big negative- however I don't see a tropical species surviving long down south!

This is the argument I have for people in Tassie, why couldn't they be given the all clear to own some tropical mainland species? Nothing will survive escapeing down there.

The biggest change I believe we need in Oz is to allow legal export of our captive bred animals. Good way to combat smugglers & great for the industry. It would have to be well policed to ensure it isn't wild caught animals being exported.
If only we had a national body representing us...


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## adderboy (Apr 11, 2014)

Owzi said:


> ...Escapes are the best example in this thread of what would be a big negative- however I don't see a tropical species surviving long down south!
> 
> This is the argument I have for people in Tassie, why couldn't they be given the all clear to own some tropical mainland species? Nothing will survive escapeing down there.
> ...



Depends on what you call tropical. Would not be surprised if something like pseudechis australis, for instance, would survive. They are found over such a wide area of the mainland, across a wide variety of conditions. There are likely to be a few others, too, which then raises the question of how you determine what would and would not survive. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if a Burm would find the Queensland/NT tropics much to its liking.

But I agree with your initial comment that we are lucky to have the species we do. Which is a good thing because I doubt the laws around keeping exotics are going to be relaxed any time soon.

Simon


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## Retic (Apr 11, 2014)

The boat has already sailed, so to speak, as far as exports go. I can buy practically any Australian species if I want it. I saw Boyds Dragons in Germany for example. I can buy Gidgees or Lace Monitors or Anthill Pythons. You see where I am going with this.


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## andynic07 (Apr 11, 2014)

Maybe because we would just breed them all with our Aussie natives. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fallenfeathers (Apr 11, 2014)

I see the arguments here are mainly geared towards snakes & large lizards, I honestly can understand the restrictions on exotic snakes (being carnivorous) but what I can't understand is the restrictions on things like tortoises, what ecological damage could they possibly cause?


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## junglepython2 (Apr 11, 2014)

fallenfeathers said:


> I see the arguments here are mainly geared towards snakes & large lizards, I honestly can understand the restrictions on exotic snakes (being carnivorous) but what I can't understand is the restrictions on things like tortoises, what ecological damage could they possibly cause?



Red Eared sliders are listed in the top 100 most invasive species world wide.......
It is far easier to have a blanket ban rather than individually assess each species.


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## Retic (Apr 11, 2014)

fallenfeathers said:


> I see the arguments here are mainly geared towards snakes & large lizards, I honestly can understand the restrictions on exotic snakes (being carnivorous) but what I can't understand is the restrictions on things like tortoises, what ecological damage could they possibly cause?



Absolutely, TORTOISES would cause no damage whatsoever.


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## butters (Apr 11, 2014)

Except to low growing vegetation


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## zulu (Apr 11, 2014)

The government has concerns that herds of tortoises could trample fences and raid orchards and sheep paddocks looking for food.


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## Retic (Apr 11, 2014)

butters said:


> Except to low growing vegetation



Yes, bugger I forgot the low growing vegetation


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## junglepython2 (Apr 11, 2014)

Anything that can establish a feral population will have an impact, it's naive to think otherwise.


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## Retic (Apr 11, 2014)

And those tortoises take some catching


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## fallenfeathers (Apr 11, 2014)

They're so slow moving I'd imagine that any escapees would be picked off by birds of prey & feral cats/dogs. I'm also thinking that feral populations would quite easily be eradicated if they even emerged in the first place. As others have already stated is it any different than keeping large snakes (such as Olives) out of their native home range. Also don't appreciate being called naive


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## Klaery (Apr 11, 2014)

fallenfeathers said:


> They're so slow moving I'd imagine that any escapees would be picked off by birds of prey & feral cats/dogs. I'm also thinking that feral populations would quite easily be eradicated if they even emerged in the first place. As others have already stated is it any different than keeping large snakes (such as Olives) out of their native home range. Also don't appreciate being called naive



I think you might have misunderstood what he said there. What you are describing regarding your hypothetical tortoise situation is not an established feral population.

Sure tortoise species probably pose very little threat of establishing a feral population but that is hardly an argument to legalize exotic reptiles on a whole and you are unlikely to get to pic and choose your species. We aren't fish hobbyists you know!


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