# Mixed species vivaria in zoos



## CGSwans (Jul 16, 2008)

I went to Melbourne Zoo yesterday, and of course I spent the obligatory hour or so in the reptile house. I'm a frequent zoo visitor (I like animals and photography, so that's a no brainer) but yesterday made me think of something that is often taken as a given in the reptile-keeping world: that mixed species enclosures are not on.

Off the top of my head, Melbourne Zoo has the following (and this is probably not a complete list):
- Philippine sailfin dragons and Asian box turtles.
- Dwarf bearded dragons and pygmy mulga monitors.
- A veiled chameleon and a rhinoceros viper.
- Boa constrictors and green iquanas.
- Hosmer's skinks, a northern blue-tongue and ridge-tailed monitor.
- Honduran milk snake and emerald tree boa.
- Mangrove snakes and blood python.

That's before you get to the separate question of them apparently keeping snakes of the same species together quite successfully. I saw banded rock rattlesnakes, black-headed pythons and taipans in the same enclosure.

So. What do we think? Is it that the conventional wisdom is wrong, and mixed-species enclosures are in fact more achievable than usually claimed? Are our zoological institutions taking drastic risks with their collections, and if so shouldn't we be protesting? Is it simply that zoos have the time and resources to create large and well supervised enclosures so that animals aren't crowded and potential mismatches can be removed quickly?

BTW - I'm not trying to argue any one of those three explanations. This is a genuine invitation to debate the topic, which I think is a good subject for discussion.

CG


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## Lockie (Jul 16, 2008)

if they're not fed properly, the BHP's will eat eachother! Not sure about the others; I dont know much about Taipans or rattlesnakes.


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## notechistiger (Jul 16, 2008)

It's fine as long as there is enough room for them to move without crashing into each other. Although, the chameleon and viper together is a bit questionable.


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## Kirby (Jul 16, 2008)

Igs and Boa's... how insane.. 

i would spit my drink on the keepers... and backhand slap them.. 


the mixes you have mentioned are ridiculous... what ever happened to Zoo's showing natural animals and enclosures, let alone showing mixed nation and predatory animals..


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## mckellar007 (Jul 16, 2008)

with the knowledge that they have, that would have atleast some idea of what goes well together. i house a couple of different species together without any problems, but i wouldnt be putting chameleon and vipers or boas together, i dont have much idea on the subject, but i would see that as a high risk senario. but if you think about it, if its not something it naturally eats, or if its something that occurs in the same area naturally there might be some way in which they benifit each other and therefore leave each other alone....


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## Varanus1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Kirby said:


> Igs and Boa's... how insane..
> 
> i would spit my drink on the keepers... and backhand slap them..
> 
> ...




I'm sorry mate, but what you're saying is downright rude. Have you actually been to the Melbourne Zoo? If you have, i'm sure that you would be able to comment on the number of large, well planted or landscaped enclosures, fitted to suit the correct environment of the species contained. The animals there are well maintained, and this is reflected in the longevity of their captive specimens (since I first moved to Melbourne 10 years ago, none of the animals listed to my knowledge have passed away, and I visit the zoo regularly). As for the listed mixes, all the species kept in mixed enclosures are known to occur in the same area. Take the Chameleon (which is a Jackson's Chameleon , NOT a Veiled) and The Rhinoceros viper, which are housed in the same enclosure. Both of these species are known to have occured in the same habitat (montane forests of Kenya) and fill a different ecological niche. The chameleon spends all its time climbing the tall branches of the enclosure, while the viper is strictly terrestrial. They almost never meet, and even if they do, the chameleon is not a normal part of the vipers diet, so is left alone. No problem there.

Please research into a post before making harsh comments.

Regards,
Trent.


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## MrBredli (Jul 16, 2008)

The BHP's and Taipans being together is asking for touble IMO (the others listed wouldn't be too much of an issue though). I agree that if a lot of thought goes into enclosure design, mixing a number of species (including predator and prey) won't cause too many hassles, but there is always a risk. I know about 10 years ago Taronga Zoo lost a Tiger and a Redbellied Black Snake to Death Adder bites (if i remember the species correctly) in their large outdoor pit, so to presume nothing will happen because it is in a zoo is naive in my opinion. But in saying that, i don't see any major issues, except possibly the BHP's and Taipans.


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## CGSwans (Jul 16, 2008)

Varanus1 said:


> Take the Chameleon (which is a Jackson's Chameleon , NOT a Veiled)
> 
> Regards,
> Trent.



My apologies. As I said, I was listing them off the top of my head. For some reason I had 'veiled' in my head rather than 'Jackson's'.

Also, there are also three eyelash vipers in the one enclosure.


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## eipper (Jul 16, 2008)

Kirby said:


> Igs and Boa's... how insane..
> 
> i would spit my drink on the keepers... and backhand slap them..
> 
> ...


 

I take it you are refering to the Lampropeltis and the Corallus....as they are the only 2 species in the original list from differing countries (as corrected earlier they are Jacksonii not yemens)

Have you been to Melbourne Zoo, are you aware of their very successful herp breeding programs there?

I know the herp dept @ Melb fairly well and their expertise is as high as it gets....

Do you have any first hand exp with these species or are you making a mis informed guess?

Cheers,
Scott


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## Snake Catcher Victoria (Jul 16, 2008)

The reptile keepers at melbourne zoo know what they are doing. They have been doing it a very long time and very successfully as well.


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## cris (Jul 16, 2008)

CGSwans said:


> Is it that the conventional wisdom is wrong, and mixed-species enclosures are in fact more achievable than usually claimed?
> yes
> 
> Are our zoological institutions taking drastic risks with their collections, and if so shouldn't we be protesting?
> ...



...


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## Kirby (Jul 16, 2008)

your not debating the safety or well being of the animals, rather defending melbourne zoo and its keepers. 

WHY mix venomous and non venomous snakes, from different countries?

WHY mix Boas and Iguanas?

WHY mix vipers and chams?


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## Noongato (Jul 16, 2008)

Vipers and boas are heat sensing arnt they? And considering the chameleon moves like a tree, perhaps the snakes cant even 'see' them...


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## jordo (Jul 16, 2008)

It's the same arguement Kirby, the keepers are responsible for the displays.
It's widely accepted by most keepers that you can have mixed enclosures with larger lizards like blueys, shinglebacks, beardies etc. 
People might find it a bit harder to agree with in this example because they're exotic species that few of us have had any experience with and don't actually know the species that well.


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## eipper (Jul 17, 2008)

Kirby,


your not debating the safety or well being of the animals, rather defending melbourne zoo and its keepers. 

WHY mix venomous and non venomous snakes, from different countries?

WHY mix Boas and Iguanas?

WHY mix vipers and chams?


As Jordo said its the same argument......also you were the person saying that you will slap them around a bit.....

The reason zoo's often mix species where compatible is too maximise the amount that can be shown....they have about 45 enclosures on display

To show the public the most species they mix some species in some enc's

Boa's and Igs aren't a problem....one is fairly strict vegetarian and the other are warm blooded specialists

Bitis and Chameleo....different micro habitats no probs

Klauberi and scutellatus are both mammal specialists so they will not eat each other....rattlers are gregarious at different times of the year so having some snake company won't upset them.


But then again YOU DID NOT TELL US about your extensive experience with O/S herps which would help your argument..or are you just GUESSING?

Cheers,
Scott


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## CGSwans (Jul 18, 2008)

So does anyone here actually keep mixed vivaria?


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## jessb (Jul 18, 2008)

The ARP does that with their outdoor pit displays - RBBs, Tigers, turtles, skinks etc in mixed enclosures.


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## gillsy (Jul 18, 2008)

jessb said:


> The ARP does that with their outdoor pit displays - RBBs, Tigers, turtles, skinks etc in mixed enclosures.


 
Yes but the outdoor pits have a trick to them... sworn to secrecy sorry. 

Also I keep turtles and keelbacks (albeit one of the turtles was a little to small  )

I also will be keeping in the one enclosure keelbacks, GTS turtles (pig nose or macleay's), possible a macleay's water snake and even if i can get the damn BTS to eat properly that to.

All will inhabit a different part of the enclosure except the BTS and GTS which have been known to congregate together in the wild.


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## jessb (Jul 18, 2008)

gillsy said:


> Yes but the outdoor pits have a trick to them... sworn to secrecy sorry.


 

?????


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## JasonL (Jul 18, 2008)

I keep pink tongues, cunninghams, Beardies (in summer) and a bluey together outdoors and U. milii, P. platurus and Mountain Dragons together inside.


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## Kathryn_ (Jul 18, 2008)

This what I always thought the best argument against the housing-separately hysteria. I mentioned in another thread a while ago, sydney wildlife world has an extensive reptile collection, most of the snakes housed with others of the same species and many of the lizards in mixed-species enclosures.


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## gillsy (Jul 18, 2008)

I think as long as everyone has enough room to have their own space..


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## jessb (Jul 18, 2008)

Kathryn_ said:


> This what I always thought the best argument against the housing-separately hysteria. I mentioned in another thread a while ago, sydney wildlife world has an extensive reptile collection, most of the snakes housed with others of the same species and many of the lizards in mixed-species enclosures.


 
Yes I thought of this example too! They have about 5 jungles in together, a trio of Diamonds and a trio of Bredli, a pair of gorgeous Scrubbies etc. They are far bigger enclosures than most people would have at home though...


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## craftsman (Jul 18, 2008)

Kirby, you are the one who should be spat on and slapped. Your comments are insult to the highly professional and devoted keepers at the Zoo. Who are you? Have you worked in a professional capacity at any zoological establishment or are you just a yobo?


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## Vincent (Jul 18, 2008)

gillsy said:


> Yes but the outdoor pits have a trick to them... sworn to secrecy sorry.


 
I'm not sure how much of a "secret" it is. Most people know about it, well, most people i know.


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## CGSwans (Jul 18, 2008)

Vincent said:


> I'm not sure how much of a "secret" it is. Most people know about it, well, most people i know.



What do they do?

Also, jessb - not having been to Sydney Wildlife World, how large are the enclosures? I was very impressed with the snake enclosures at Australia Zoo when I visited last Saturday. They were each a couple of metres long and a metre or more wide.


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## jessb (Jul 18, 2008)

CGSwans said:


> What do they do?
> .


 

LOL glad you asked, after asking once I didn't want to look silly by asking again!!! 

Some of the enclosures at SWW are really quite big - the scrubbies' one was over 2m high and took up a whole wall. I'd say most of the ones that had multiple big pythons in there were at least the size of a small bathroom.


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## Aslan (Jul 18, 2008)

I have never been to Melbourne Zoo, however, can definately comment on the enclosures at SWW...

They are amazing...

The design is fantastic, and frankly, they mixed species/multiple animals makes for a MUCH more interesting display...

I believe the key, as has been addressed by a few others, is that SWW provide exceptionally large and well-designed display enclosures to accomodate this. In fact, the first time I attended I could not believe the height and size that was available to the Blueys/Shingles - I attended again recently and it now makes a lot more sense, they have added Gouldain Finches to the same display...

I recently watched a keeper feeding the Frillies and Hosmers (If I recall) at the same time in the same enclosure, the difference became clear - the Frillies rarely leave their trees and when they do it is to get down to the ground to feed...the Hosmers dont really leave the rock ledges...it works...and looks great! (In fact, the same enclosure also used to house Tristis as well)...

I would still hesitate to advice too many keepers to travel this route as I think, in general, enclosure size in most private collections makes this more difficult - in saying that - if you provide an adequate enclosure I dont think you could put together a much more impressive enclosure than a functional mixed species setup...


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## CGSwans (Jul 19, 2008)

CGSwans said:


> What do they do?



Bump. I'm curious now.


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## Australis (Jul 19, 2008)

The previous ARP of Eric Worrells had MANY MANY
more mixed species enclosures... not just reptiles either.


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