# keeping illegaly



## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

im just curious on what people think the extent of exotic reptile keeping is in australia.
i realise this topic will get some diverse answers but it will be interesting
the reason i ask is cause i work part time in a pet shop, and anyone that needs help with reptiles generally asks me. due to this it has become increasingly obvious that there are a large percentage of people keeping and in some cases breeding exotic species, i reckon around 50% (now this may only be 2people a week) or so of the people i talk to tell me that they have exotics or a friend of theres does (now i dont beleive all of them cause some storys sound like garbage).i tell these people the extent of the fines and impacts and some get alittle worried and others just dont care. Now im sure there are many members of this forum (after all there is well over a thousand members) that keep exotics but i dont no to what extent and i think it would be interesting to here peoples opinions on the topic of the number of exotics in relation to native being kept in captivity. imo im starting to believe that there would almost be a 50/50 ratio of exotics to natives, with many people not bothering with licences and just getting what they want.
this leads to my next question, do people beleive that is is possibly getting to the point where npws should just give up and let people keep exotics this way they would be able to atleast have an estimate of numbers and they can be aware of there distribution and abundance of poticular species? its pretty obviouse imo that many people are going to keep them regardless of the repocussions.

what do you all think?


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Here we go again.

It's difficult to say exactly, but there would be a heck of a lot less than 50% exotics representing the captive reptile population in Australia. Take a look at the forums, see how many threads there are along the lines of "Help! My snake escaped!". There is no doubt that legalising would increase the number being kept, bred and escaping. Look overseas, the captive snakes are predominantly balls, bloods and corns. I'd hate to see the Australian scene go from having a great diversity of species to having little more than a great diversity of ball and corn morphs. Don't be fooled, it wouldn't add to the diversity, there are only so many people keeping in Australia, only so many snakes each person has time, space and money to keep and much of that time, space and money would go towards exotics rather than natives if it was legal.

In any case, the point is moot, the relevant authorities have made it overwhealmingly clear that exotics aren't going to be legalised. On this point, I support them 210%


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

This is just my opinion but I really doubt that a few exotics escaping and breeding would make a massive impact on Australias ECO system I think its just a case of the government trying to flex its muscles and show they have power like lets face it the government brought one animal we will never get rid of and are breeding worse then rabbits and moving into parts of Australia where the government said they could never survive (Im talking about cane toads).
We can't Import any "non-native" reptiles unless you have a permit for a zoo etc but yet we can import exotic mice and rats which have been known to harbour serious diseases which have killed humans (They say we aren't far from another bought of the black plague which wipped millions of people out)We can also import some exotic fish species which are not meant to be able to survive in "wild Australian conditions" but we are now seeing Pond,rivers,drainage systems over run with such fish as Discus and Red devils which are thriving in Queensland.
And if you walk into an aquarium shop 90% of fish in there are illegal to import but the government will allow them to be kept without legal action, So if you import them your screwed but if you are keeping them as pets and didn't import them you are sweet as pie. Just another case of the government's double standards.
I do like many exotics but I really like our native Carpets and tree snakes so i am content and don't feel the need to keep any.
So point of the story is anything the Government see's people enjoying they will ban it which in turn makes people resort to such things as smuggling.
Just my opinion.


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## Spike14 (Mar 19, 2006)

Ok the reason that they are banned is because they are afraid of the having diseases rite? But its most likely that the exotice were bred her in aus, if it did come to the stage were they got fed up with the number of exotics i would think that they would have another amnisty thing were you license them, like they had a few years back, and if they had one of those, i would jump to get some exotices like a boa or chameleon, but in saying that my mum said she want's a yellow eared slider, first thing i said was no, because if she gets caught with them then i loose my license, its only in certin circumstances that i would own some exotics


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

> In any case, the point is moot, the relevant authorities have made it overwhealmingly clear that exotics aren't going to be legalised. On this point, I support them 210%


i completely agree i dont want them legalised either. its just interesting to think about the thousands of people doing it legaly and having a licence and keeping native, and to compare that with the number of people that dont have a licence and are keeping exotics. as you would be aware there are no exact figures and never will be thats why its interesting to here peoples opinions on how many they believe are illegaly keeping herps exotics and even natives imo i beleive that there would be probably almost as many people keeping without a licence and the probabiltiy of those keeping exotice would be higher amongst them due to much lesser risk of being cought compared to those who have licences, if htis was the case then there would be many exotics out there that people wouldnt even have thought to be in collections or in the country.


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Listen to yourself, yayo. "They said cane toads couldn't survive here" well, that's just plain nonsense, if they didn't think they'd survive here they wouldn't have been brought in. Duh. Yes, look at all the exotic birds, fish and mammals which are harming our country so much. You complain that the fish, bird and mammal people can keep and in some cases import their exotics, you point out the damage that those exotics have caused, you then go on to say that you want to do the same with reptiles!

We have so little left of our small native mammals, our fish aren't doing much better and our birds aren't in great shape either. Why on earth would be want to make the same mistakes with reptiles? We are so incredibly fortunate to have virtually no exotic snakes (only one), very few lizards and just one pesky turtle. We all know what can happen when you release an exotic amphibian. Wanting to go down the same horribly destructive path of the bird, mammal and fish people is pure insanity.


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

> This is just my opinion but I really doubt that a few exotics escaping and breeding would make a massive impact on Australias ECO system I think its just a case of the government trying to flex its muscles and show they have power


 but there is proof thate they can breed and outcompete othere native species. just look at our brown tree snake, it was accidently introduced into another country (i think Guam or another little island above indonesia) duriong would war 2 since then it has reproduced so rapidly that it is wiping the native birds out rapidly and there are that many that it is causing a major ecosystem impact which is huge
(someone may be able to supply a link to a web page with info on this)



> first thing i said was no, because if she gets caught with them then i loose my license


which supports what i said, people with licenses are scared of being cought cause npws have there details, where as those that dont have lisenses think they wont be cought.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 19, 2006)




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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

well said Moreliaman


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

If they are legal, more will be kept more will escape, there are many species that could thrive here.

Australias environment is already royally screwed, we don't need more pressure on it.

So what if we keep other exotics? Allowing more just makes it worse not any better.

We have more native Reptiles than anywhere else in the world, people are just greedy, you can't expect to have everything.


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## Craig2 (Mar 19, 2006)

while we r talking about keeping snakes illegaly. How many ppl have had herps for sale and some of the ppl who ring up do not have a reptile licence. This has happend to me a few times in the past but it seams to be getting worse. whats your opinion. U goto be carefull..


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## Tristis (Mar 19, 2006)

i use to work at the sydney pet expo at a reptile stand and the amout of people that came up to you and ask "do you no where i can get a corn snake from" was amazing. mabye 30 or more people a day, then you have the people showing you pics on digital cams and phone and asking if you new anybody after exotics. even people would tell you they had corn snakes and didnt even no that they are illegal. i think there are more corns than chilldrens being kept in nsw. one thing i notices is the guys with exotics are the ones new to the hobby, alot of young guys 18 - 25 buy a mac or carpet as there first snake and then start talking to the pet shops and then some one says" i got a mate that has corns for sale do you want one?" the only reason they buy them is that it is ilegal. its like drugs people sell them because they are illegal and they get a kick out of the thrill. exotics will always be here theres that many of them. i think most are bred here and this is a big part of the problem. pet shop seem to be the big problem as they seem to be where every one gets them from (not all pet shops just a handful).


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

Jason, there was no evidence any of the animals introduced to Australia would cause harm and out compete our wildlife either.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

Sdaji you may want to open your eyes and read what I actually said which was:
-one animal we will never get rid of and are breeding worse then rabbits and moving into parts of Australia where the government said they could never survive (Im talking about cane toads). 

P.S I will take my appology in English,Serbian,Spanish or French thanks.


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Mr-Magic: I used to get that heaps, some people would even get offended when I refused to sell them snakes off license! Some would lie and say they had licenses, but they were pretty easy to sound out on the phone and telling them that they'd have to bring their license with them and I'd have to see it before they had the snakes kept every one of them away :lol: I actually haven't had anyone to ask for off license snakes for about two years now, perhaps it's because I now sell more through word of mouth and advertise less.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

Soooooo where is my appology Sdaji?


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## Nephrurus (Mar 19, 2006)

Someone is about to point out that Australia has already a whole heap of exotics (kept illegally), and they haven't become an environmental problem yet. Not many people know the extent that "acclimatisers" went to to get foxes and rabbits established in wild populations. Most early releases were killed by dogs or other animals (eagles etc..) and it took a good many years to get the animals breeding. Only recently (last 10 years) have some ecological terrorists succeeded in getting foxes established in Tasmania (yes, a fox cub was found recently dead on the road, so they are breeding). 

My point is that just because there is no percieved problem with exotics at present, it does not mean there will not be a one if they were kept in captivity in greater numbers (in numbers that legalisation would result in). The number of escapes in our fairly small reptile keeping community is fairly large. Admittedly i had a small blotched python escape eariler this year (since recovered), and Sdaji pointed out the large number of "Snake escapes" threads are probably only a small percentage of how many escaped.

If your'e desparate for exotics, get an axolotl. 

-Henry


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

yayo, I did miss that (I'm on a laptop outside in the sun sorry  ).

However, it changes little. The fact that the government said cane toads couldn't live where they now thrive shows that even with reasonable research, we can massively underestimate what animals will be capable of if released into a new environment.

For the record, I've spent more than a year researching distribution modelling/bioclimatic analysis (understanding why things live where they do and predicting where they'd be capable of living). This research will wind up next month, I'll be most relieved!


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## da_donkey (Mar 19, 2006)

If it exists then you can get it $$$$$$ i have heard from a reliable source about monkeys,baby tiger cubs and just about every herp you can imagine.

My question is about the proper medical care of these animals when they need it, if you show up at the vets with a sick iguana, can they dob you in or are vets bound like doctors are?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

No worries Sdaji we can all be a little "Clumbsy"  sometimes.


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## Tristis (Mar 19, 2006)

if you keep snake they shouldnt be able to escape i have kept snakes for 9 going on 10 years and have never lost one snake or lizard. its not that hard to stop them escaping.


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## Tristis (Mar 19, 2006)

vets are yes


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

yayo said:


> No worries Sdaji we can all be a little "Clumbsy"  sometimes.



Yeah, and and apparently we can also be enough of a moron not to understand the damage that exotics could do too. We might even be stupid enough to point out things which support the banning of exotics as arguments for legalising them.


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Tristis said:


> if you keep snake they shouldnt be able to escape i have kept snakes for 9 going on 10 years and have never lost one snake or lizard. its not that hard to stop them escaping.



You're quite right, it is possible to make sure you never have an escapee. Many people are able to prevent escapes, but clearly there are many people who can't. You and I can prevent our animals escaping as well as we like, but it won't stop someone else's getting out.

A reasonable way of getting a very, very rough estimate of the proportion of native vs exotics in captivity is the proportion picked up by snake collectors in cities. I know several snake catchers in Melbourne, they frequently get carpets, children's etc, occassionally they get other natives and very rarely they'll get a corn or boa. It would probably be around 2% of the total number of escapees (I'm not including things like tigers, browns, etc which are indigenous). Yes, I know that some things are more likely to escape than others, corns are more likely to be noticed than Children's etc etc etc, there are all sorts of confounding variables, but it's a reasonable way of surveying and getting a rough idea.


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

Okay, I know I had myself a doozy of a stupid night last night and posted in response to things I should have read at least 4 times over first....but I'm going go out on a limb and call for help deciphering the logic here (I notice I'm not the only one who's picked up on this point)....

Cane toads....introduced species...therefore exotic....
Reptiles from other countries....therefore introduced species...therefore exotic....

If the cane toad was bad for the ecosystem here then how can that possibly be an argument in favour of introducing yet MORE exotic species????

Now I've read over the post which confused me 8 times and I still can't see how that one makes sense.

So please...enlighten me?

Cheers (And please, no flames, it's a question I've just posted NOT an opinion), Kersten.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

Sdaji what are you on about?
Did i say we should import exotics? I dont see anywhere that i said that.
I said I am into carpets and tree snakes so I don't know if you are reading my posts backwards or something but your bringing up points that don't reflect on anything I have said.


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks Kris, you said what I did but in a way in which will not get the moderators delete happy


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

No problem Sdaji, I like my head attatched to my neck and to be honest I did wonder at first if I was just having a mental moment :|


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

as for people asking to by stuff but not having a license, well i get that alot at work. yesterday, some kid came in about 13-14, he was keeping in a three foot by one foot tank with no heat or uv an adult eastern bearded dragon that he cought two weeks ago, a pregnant jacky (well i dont think this kid would no if it was pregnant let alone a female) and two young water dragons that he cought about 2 months ago, he came up to me at work and asked me "for some unknown reason my lizards arent eating, why?" not only this he was scared to reach in and touch them, i asked how much he has fed them and he said he has put 5-10 insects in the tank (for them all to fight over) in the last few weeks, and he told me he doesnt want to spend any money he was just curious if there was something wrong. i tried rweally hard to get him to let the go or build an out door pit in the sun, telling how to do it, telling him some web sites. but he wasnt interested, he said he will see how they go. i could have screamed, i dont think i have ever been so angry with someone befor he was such an........ i couldnt even educate him, he just didnt care. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

yayo said:


> Sdaji what are you on about?
> Did i say we should import exotics? I dont see anywhere that i said that.
> I said I am into carpets and tree snakes so I don't know if you are reading my posts backwards or something but your bringing up points that don't reflect on anything I have said.



Maybe you're thinking that more of what I'm saying is directed at you than it is.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> yayo said:
> 
> 
> > No worries Sdaji we can all be a little "Clumbsy"  sometimes.
> ...



You might want to get out of the sun for awhile seems to be getting to your brain, Or lack there of :lol:


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

Can we please try not to resort to name calling and insults....please........a logical polite debate would be refreshing....and painless for the scared little newbies like me.

Kersten.


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

> If the cane toad was bad for the ecosystem here then how can that possibly be an argument in favour of introducing yet MORE exotic species????


i dont think any one here is in favour of keeping exotics, im against it. 


> Cane toads....introduced species...therefore exotic....
> Reptiles from other countries....therefore introduced species...therefore exotic....


anything that is not native to an area is an introduced species, eg. rough scaled pythons, are native to north- western australia, that makes them an introduced species into nsw, for instance if a rough scale was to escape and start a population in the bluemountains then this would be an introduced species, if it was to out compete other snakes then it would techniqualy be an introduced pest (i think) because it is endemic to western australia not eastern.

i have actually heard from various reasourses about a wild population of cornsnakes near the central coast nsw


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

That's awful Jason. And I certainly do see your point. 

I do wonder though if perhaps we're lumping all illegal keepers under the same umbrella here. Before anyone has a go, just think about it for a second.....

There is a very big difference between people who knowingly keep animals which are wild caught (in most states) prohibited, or keep them without licenses and people who simply don't realise that it is illegal to keep and wild caught animal, an animal that is an exotic (and let's face it some probably don't even realise what they have IS an exotic) or keep reptiles without licenses.

I know there's no excuse for ignorance, and I do think anyone keeping any type of pet should educate themselves about them first. I'm not advocating, or really even condoning these practices, just pointing out that it happens. But think about how many people out there (no I'm not asking for a show of hands, or pointing fingers) started out by picking up a lizard out of their yard as kids and keeping it in a fishtank only to find out much later that they had in fact broken a law????

I know in the eyes of the law (supposedly) it's all the same, but let's not have the mob mentality about people who keep illegally, in some cases all that's required is a little education and all is fixed.

Cheers, Kersten.


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

> But think about how many people out there (no I'm not asking for a show of hands, or pointing fingers) started out by picking up a lizard out of their yard as kids and keeping it in a fishtank only to find out much later that they had in fact broken a law


i did, but i discovered really quickly what i was doing wrong because as all people should do when obtaining and getting a new animal is reasearch, i did just that, and i discovered all the things that i was doing wrong and fixed them, but the problem lies with those who see there wrong doings but dont give a stuff about it. but back to the original question of how many exotics people think there are in comparison to natives in captivity, i reckon the only way to really know would be to have another emnisty, this way the issue can be assessed and future numbers estimated.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

Sdaji with all your studying you would then be able to enlighten us about the amount of animals that need to escape and breed for them to become a threat to native animals? How many generations would it take and how long before we have a problem? I have been to many countries where legal importation is allowed and the only ones where they have had problems have been where large amounts of reptiles have been handled inappropriately. With this I mean thousands have been released by accident over ten or more years. In florida where the climate is right (this is a port of entry for some imports into america), they have got problems with species like iguanas. They only have this problem because the animals escaped in sustainable numbers. That is why you have problems with cane toads, they were relaesed by the thousands. These then bred by the thousnads and their offspring bred by the tousands. That is where the problem came in. I am not condoning the keeping of exotics, I am just saying you would have to do a lot more than have a few specimens escape of a species for them to establish them in a foreign environment with its own predators. By the way I also did the same type of studies at uni! I just observed a different angle to the whole learning experience. I have only seen exotics on license since I have been here. In any case who would want to keep corn snakes in any case? They are not real snakes, give me a big old python anytime!!!


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

another interesting question is why are people either for or against exotics in captivity.

im against it and that cause i did year twelve biology and i learnt the devistating effects introduced species have on our ecosystems. that and the fact that i reckon most of the best animals in the world are found here in australia. just look at the cane toad, nobody really thought that would have such a negative effect on the country but hay... it is, when they where brought in people thought they would do us a favour will no ill effects aftere all they where just a few toads, and the problem is alot of keepers think that exotic snakes are just a few snakes and that it couldnt happen to them. but there are so many examples of exotics causeinhg us so many problems.


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

> but the problem lies with those who see there wrong doings but dont give a stuff about it.




I agree completely, the people breaking the law deliberately are where the problem lies. I'm just wondering how many of them would turn over they're (potentially) money making animals during an amnesty? And what about those who have emotional attatchments to their animals and aren't keen on the possibility of their exotics being euthanised?

Oh and perhaps I didn't make myself clear before...Yayo, I'm just wondering if you can help me understand your statements from earlier in the thread?? If you read back you'll see where my confusion lies.

Kersten.


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter thing about how many babys a boa gives birth to? dont forget they are live. if sombodys gravid female boa gets out and has babys you have got something like 30 live exotic snakes in one area and it just takes time, as i said before the broen tree snake is a pest over seas, they didnt realeas hundreds, they reckon there was only a couple now look at the problem. look at rabbits, origanally i think there was about 15 rabbits or so realeased i australia, and people thought that they would have no problems or effects on the land, now there are 100's of millions of rabbits and the money to fix the problems and impacts is coming out of your tax, so in the end you and i are the ones paying for this.


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## Magpie (Mar 19, 2006)

> Sdaji with all your studying you would then be able to enlighten us about the amount of animals that need to escape and breed for them to become a threat to native animals? How many generations would it take and how long before we have a problem? I have been to many countries where legal importation is allowed and the only ones where they have had problems have been where large amounts of reptiles have been handled inappropriately. With this I mean thousands have been released by accident over ten or more years. In florida where the climate is right (this is a port of entry for some imports into america), they have got problems with species like iguanas. They only have this problem because the animals escaped in sustainable numbers. That is why you have problems with cane toads, they were relaesed by the thousands. These then bred by the thousnads and their offspring bred by the tousands. That is where the problem came in. I am not condoning the keeping of exotics, I am just saying you would have to do a lot more than have a few specimens escape of a species for them to establish them in a foreign environment with its own predators. By the way I also did the same type of studies at uni! I just observed a different angle to the whole learning experience. I have only seen exotics on license since I have been here. In any case who would want to keep corn snakes in any case? They are not real snakes, give me a big old python anytime!!!




I'm not for or against, but I do obey the law. But Florida has Hundreds of exotic ferals, not just one or two. Consider our whole top end has a climate very suitable for herps and you can see why it would be a problem.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

I am not saying its impossible and yes i know there are lots of feral species, i am saying that the import industry is massive!!! If you have not been involved with it you would not know what you are dealing with. I saw shipments with thousands of animals in them. Remember these animals are also not adapted to their foreign environment, or its natural enemies. A boa would have up to fifty babies but less than 10% of them would survive in their natural habitat let alone in an unfamiliar environment? And you dont allow import into Australia, so you dont even have a persent of the worlds imports happening here. Of course I have not seen any Illegal animals since I have been here. I also dont live in the top end but in Melbourne with its horrible weather, very few exotics would survive!!!


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

It was only a hundred or so toads released.

Melbourne may not be perfect for a lot of exotics, but there are a hell of a lot of other places perfect for them.


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Remember these animals are also not adapted to their foreign environment, or its natural enemies. A boa would have up to fifty babies but less than 10% of them would survive in their natural habitat let alone in an unfamiliar environment?



That's an incorrect statement. Some pst species are pests because they are introduced into an environment where there are no or relatively few natural predators. Cane Toads are a classic example. And when you give them an abundant food supply that has not evolved to cope with that sort of predator, their populations will explode. Just like the Brown Tree Snake in Guam.



> I also dont live in the top end but in Melbourne with its horrible weather, very few exotics would survive!!!



Are you seriously suggesting that it would be OK to import exotics because they won't become established in Melbourne?

:shock: 

Hix


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Sdaji with all your studying you would then be able to enlighten us about the amount of animals that need to escape and breed for them to become a threat to native animals? How many generations would it take and how long before we have a problem?



How long is a piece of string?

The short answer is:

One or more, but usually more. That depends on the species, reproductive output and survival rate, and also how you define "problem". Quite possibly our only feral snake (which is now well established) managed to establish itself here after only a single individual was introduced (accidentally). Yes, it's a parthenogen, I know, I know.

Interesting you say you've done the same studies, I'd be interested in hearing about them. I was involved in this type of research at first while employed as a research assistant and I'm currently near the end of my honours year, I'll be writing my thesis about bioclimatic modelling. It's extremely easy to shoot holes straight through pretty much any of the bioclimatic analyses carried out before a few years ago.


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## Retic (Mar 19, 2006)

I love reading these threads and also love statements like this 'i dont think any one here is in favour of keeping exotics, im against it. ' :lol: Yeah right.
The problem we have at the moment is that because there are no controls (other than being illegal which is no control at all) these animals are being bred in a completely unregulated manner and there is every chance that animals will get into the wild one way or another. My argument from a fence sitting point of view is that at least licensed animals could be monitored and NPWS would have an idea where some of them are.

From speaking to quite a large number of keepers over the years it is fair to say that an absolute minimum of 50% would jump at the chance.
Another favourite of mine is when people talk about them and I say I would have them again if they were legal they say don't you like native snakes !!!!


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

Come on Hix, you know im not saying that. I am not condoning the import of exotics. I just dont think people realise how big the problem has to be for animals to become ferrel. I am just saying there is very little information out there on the topic. I know that there is a similar study taking place in South Africa to establish what commonly kept exotic species might become problem animals! And guess what, they cant assess anything at the moment due to a lack of information. I also just have to mention that we have allowed regulated imports of most species for the last 50 years and have almost no pest animals except the infamous red eared slider. They are a problem in most countries. The only reason why cane toads are so prolific is because you die if you eat them. And I am not talking about parthenogenic species but species that need another sex to breed! How many specimens. And these all have to escape near each other and stay near each other till they are mature, and of right size to breed. Forgive me but sometimes my english dries up!


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd like to know what the purpose of NPWS knowing what's out there is especially if you can get pretty much anything? What;s the purpose of this?? I can't see legalising helping at all except allowing an extremely larger number to be kept. If it's only available to experienced keepers, inexperienced would still keep illegally ect. I think public awarness is the smart thing to start with, along with more effort into catching keepers ect ect.


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Non parthenogens: two (or one gravid female).

Bunnies aren't poisonous, neither are cats, in fact, both are very palatable. That doesn't seem to have slowed them down much. Flower Pot Snakes aren't poisonous either... Red Eared Sliders..... Brown Tree Snakes..... Fruit Flies.... Horses....


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

I figured if I left the computer for an hour or so that when I came back there'd be an answer..there isn't....  could it be that there isn't one and someone is dodging the issue....


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Come on Hix, you know im not saying that.



Yes, I kinda figured you weren't. But what I don't know is why you bothered to say it as it doesn't really contribute to your argument in anyway.



Hix


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

Reptile examples Sdaji! This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

Kris said:


> I figured if I left the computer for an hour or so that when I came back there'd be an answer..there isn't....  could it be that there isn't one and someone is dodging the issue....



Sorry, I must have missed your question (or thought someone else answered it) - what was it again, please?



Hix


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Reptile examples Sdaji! This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.



That's the same argument the govt used back in the 30's.
"_Rabbits and foxes have nothing to do with it - they are completely different to a toad_."


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

Hix not all of us have the wisdom of age behind us! :wink:


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

Then maybe we should listen to the wise. Or at least, to the well-informed.



Hix


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## Magpie (Mar 19, 2006)

There is no reptile examples becasue we don't allow the importing of reptiles! (Well there is red ears even then...)
You mention camels, what about water buffalo? Both have one baby in a good year, are easy to track down, need good water and food sources etc yet STILL become a problem. What about an animal that has 50 babies a year and can go years without food and is almost impossible to track?


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

I have not been around since the thirties. And now there is more evidence showing what can happen and it has not happened in lots of countries where people had the savvy to contorl the import. Every country has examples of ferrel animals but just how many of those include reptile species.


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## peterjohnson64 (Mar 19, 2006)

Once again we are back into the area of expetise of others in this forum so I will defer to their judgement. However, I understand that the ban on keeping exotics is actually form the federal department of agriculture, not the state departments of wildlife. The NPWS in NSW did actually issue exotic licences in 1997 only to be told by the Depty of Ag that they were illegal and to stop doing it. If a person fails to renew their exotic licence then it can't be re-issued.

I would imagine that the Dept of Ag is taking advice from scientific experts in making their decision.

and from a politcal point of view, if they allow it and then it becomes a problem its the governments fault. If they keep it illegal and then it becomes a problem, its the fault of the illegal keepers. Food for thought.


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

Considering we have the most diverse and largest number of reptiles in the world It would seem appropriate to believe we are more at risk as reptiles can flourish here. Also, most of the really up areas of the world like Europe and North America and Japan have a much less diverse reptile fauna and reptile habitats than places like South America and Australia, although I would assume there could be exceptions to this as I'm no expert on which contries have the highest number of exotic reptiles being kept.


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

It's a pretty well-known fact that not all escapes/introductions work. The majority don't take for a variety of reasons.

But when one does become established, it can do a lot of damage and be very difficult to eradicate. Not to mention costly. And that's the risk - you don't expect it to happen, but it does.

The Precautionary Principle at work.

And MH: I haven't been arond since the thirties either - it's called research.



Hix


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## Sdaji (Mar 19, 2006)

Morelia_Hunter said:


> Reptile examples Sdaji! This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.



I was talking about toxins and Australia, you said the only reason the toads are a problem is because they're poisonous, but clearly, it's not necessary to be poisonous to be successful. I can't give you many examples of feral reptiles in Australia because fortunately they haven't been given the chance to establish themselves... mostly...

Okay, you want reptile examples...the species of reptiles which are feral in Australia are not poisonous (Red Eared Sliders, Flower Pot Snakes, Asian House Geckoes). There were reports of a feral population of Jackson's Chamaeleons around Sydney a few years ago which was erradicated before it spread too far, but I can't confirm that.

If you look at places where exotic reptiles are legally kept, you'll get a lot more examples of ferals than in Australia, where they are illegal. There are feral iguanas, goannas, snakes, geckoes... we all know this, we know they're not poisonous, we also know that excluding the frozen poles, Australia is the most vulnerable continent to exotic invaders, so if it has happened elsewhere, it can more easily happen here.


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

Good point Dicco. It is a reptile paradise. I am just wondering what the chances would be of 2 ferral corn snakes coming into contact with each other!


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## shamous1 (Mar 19, 2006)

Want exotics - Go to the Zoo


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## Morelia_Hunter (Mar 19, 2006)

Please, those animals a clear threat to Australian wildlife, flowerpot snakes? Oh my god the flowerpot snakes are coming!!!! On a more serious note. And asian house geckoes are all over the world, i have not heard of them causing another species to turn endangered! And go have a read up on how those animals became ferral. Most of them were released in great numbers from day one!!!!


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## Kris (Mar 19, 2006)

It's okay Hix, my question was actually aimed at Yayo, who put across an opinion which seemed (to me at least) to be somewhat lacking in logic and I asked him for some clarification, his point (and my question) are on the first page.


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## Hickson (Mar 19, 2006)

Dicco said:


> Considering we have the most diverse and largest number of reptiles in the world It would seem appropriate to believe we are more at risk as reptiles can flourish here.



Very good argument.



peterjohnson64 said:


> The NPWS in NSW did actually issue exotic licences in 1997 only to be told by the Depty of Ag that they were illegal and to stop doing it.



That's nt entirely correct. The licences were issued by NPWS when the licensing system was introduced - people with exotics declared them and were granted licenses under the amnesty. When the new Federal legislation was enacted it effectively voided Exotic licenses. However, those with licenses were permitted to continue with them.

And the Federal body responsible is not Dept of Ag or DPI, but DEC in Canberra.



Hix


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## Retic (Mar 19, 2006)

This is a very emotive subject which often brings the worst out in people. The way I see it there are 2 ways to go, one is we stay as we are largely making next to no impact on the numbers of exotics out there OR some form of legislation is bought in to legalise/control at least some of them. 
Until cats are controlled I'm afraid I can't take the anti argument very seriously. I'm just nipping out to put my falme proof suit on :lol:


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## Tristis (Mar 19, 2006)

the way i see it is that there is that many exotics and that many people breeding them in oz that no matter what happens exotics will be avalibale no matter what, wheather made legal or not. if they made all non venomuse exotics legal the chances are that vipers rattlesnakes and cobras will be more common than what they are because they are illegal. like it or not exotics are going to be avalibale in oz no matter what.
just my 2 cents


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

boa said:


> This is a very emotive subject which often brings the worst out in people. The way I see it there are 2 ways to go, one is we stay as we are largely making next to no impact on the numbers of exotics out there OR some form of legislation is bought in to legalise/control at least some of them.
> Until cats are controlled I'm afraid I can't take the anti argument very seriously. I'm just nipping out to put my falme proof suit on :lol:



I must disagree Boa, with education, better policing and better publicity of our own Reptiles and other natives, co-inciding with a well done amnesty unlike our last I believe although there will still be exotics no doubt, we would at least reduce this signifficantly.

With increased public awarness those who were simply unaware would now know better, if this coincided with an amnesty they could give up their animals without fear.

Those keeping illegals with full knowlege they are illegal, but keep them because it's so easy to get away with now would be less inclined to keep them if it was policed better and large numbers were confiscated with real fines given out. 

Of cource this is not perfect and the more 'hardcore' keepers would still have them, but it would reduce them and I believe it the best option we have at present.

Legalising would make it worse, and if it had tough restrictions there would stilkl be illegal animals.


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## basketcase (Mar 19, 2006)

Dicco said:


> I must disagree Boa, with education, better policing and better publicity of our own Reptiles and other natives, co-inciding with a well done amnesty unlike our last I believe although there will still be exotics no doubt, we would at least reduce this signifficantly.



reduce what?

the reasons for keeping exotic herps out of the country are already here. disease, feral populations etc. its going to get far worse before it gets better.

bottom line if someone wants a boa (or any other species), they will get one. this will never change, and thats why the government needs to change its point of view on the subject.


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## Tristis (Mar 19, 2006)

we had 2 amnestys the first in 1997 the other not so long ago the guys with the big exotic collections only declaired the common exotic as anything deamed as rare or endanged would be taken by NPWS so alot of stuff didnt get declaired. the second was for people who had 1 or 2 exotics. NPWS could still charge you if you declaired a collection of exotics, it was up to them wheater or not they saw you as a breeder/dealer so in NSW 1 corn and 1 slider were declaired. i no of 3 people who have had exotic legaly put on licence by npws after the amnestys. this may upset people but you can get them legaly if you realy want them.


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## Dicco (Mar 19, 2006)

Basketcase, as has been stated countless times making them legal would increase the numbers enormously, so the chances of them establishing in the wild will be much greater.

There are many who have no idea they are legal, making it well known would stop those not intending to break the law doing so.

Better policing would discourage a lot of petty keepers as well as some bigger ones.

Greater public awareness and better policing co-inciding with a proper amnesty - not like the porly done previous one - would help to reduce numbers and the continued public awareness and policing would also help reduce numbers.

If it's all made legal then what the hell is that acomplishing? Nothing but increasing the risks to our already fragile and battered environment and keeping a few people happy.


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 19, 2006)

I can't believe all the hype! here in WA we are limited in what we can keep on our licenses- 41 Species. And thats frogs,snakes, lizards (inc. geckos) and monitors. Much less that NSW huh? We have some amazing creatures here in our own country- don't be greedy! As much as I would love one of those Cape Dwarf Chameleons....I would never own one- because I don't believe that exotic species should be allowed. 
'Rant Hat ON'
And one reason I oppose the introduction of laws to keep 'exotics' is that although the species may not 'compete' as such with native animals if they escape, I don't feel that it should be allowed as the introduction of non-native species should be kept to a minimum. 

And yes, there is currently quite a few species here that were introduced that flourished. The thing we need to remember- is take away an animal from its environment, and you take it away from its natural enemy. Everything is in the food chain- and if you take out something, and stuff it where there is no natural predator above it- you run the risk of that species running riot. 
I mean personally, even as a human- we have quite a few things out there that can easily kill us- and I don't fancy the addition of more killers...and if you allowed exotic species you would undoubtedly end up with people wanting to keep 'animals' that can kill. 

We should try to NOT make the mistakes our forefathers did. Until we control the exotics that live here now- we shouldn't allow the keeping of more exotics legal. 

And yes, there will always be people who keep illegally, and I believe that as a registered keeper, if I know someone has snakes illegally, or is keeping illegal exotics- then I should do something about it. The more registered keepers that turn the other cheek- the less their license means. Its the same as if I knew someone was keeping animals in a way that was of detriment to the animals heath and wellbeing- I would report them. We need to be responsible animal keepers, and help protect our beautiful country. 
We can't rely on the government to do it all for us- we have to take some of the initiative.
'Rant hat OFF'


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## Hickson (Mar 20, 2006)

Tristis said:


> i no of 3 people who have had exotic legaly put on licence by npws after the amnestys. this may upset people but you can get them legaly if you realy want them.



NPWS in NSW cannot issue new exotic licenses. If you have an Exotic license granted under the 1997 amnesty and you let it lapse, you cannot get it renewed. 

Dicco: I'd be interested to know why you think the 2004 amnesty was poorly run. Brochures were sent out to licensed keepers, Herp Societies were made aware of it, and the media was advised. The fact that the newspapers buried the story on page 17 and the TV news put it after the first break (or dropped it entirely) is more an indictment on the jounalistic world's opinion on the importance of the amnesty. 



Hix


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## Tristis (Mar 20, 2006)

hix if you aquire the animal legaly it can be done.you can have exotics on a display license you just have to fill out all the paper work.


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## reptililian (Mar 20, 2006)

*keeping ilegaly*



da_donkey said:


> If it exists then you can get it $$$$$$ i have heard from a reliable source about monkeys,baby tiger cubs and just about every herp you can imagine.
> 
> My question is about the proper medical care of these animals when they need it, if you show up at the vets with a sick iguana, can they dob you in or are vets bound like doctors are?


I was of the belief that vets were not allowed to treat an exotic reptile, that they were required by law to refuse treatment.


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## moosenoose (Mar 20, 2006)

Spike14 said:


> Ok the reason that they are banned is because they are afraid of the having diseases rite?



Wrong!! Rite is spelt RIGHT! Right! :wink: :lol:


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## soulweaver (Mar 20, 2006)

if you talk to vets, they will say off record that they arn't supposed to treat them, but in their own hearts how can they refuse to help the injured.

ppl in melb would know of the doc i talk about.


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## reptililian (Mar 20, 2006)

He/she helps you out whenever your red eared slider is sick?


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## soulweaver (Mar 20, 2006)

he/she has shown me x-rays of red eared sliders.

they put them down as long neck turtles on the books.


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## soulweaver (Mar 20, 2006)

me, personally wouldn't risk my herps to own an exotic, but each to their own.


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## reptililian (Mar 20, 2006)

*keeping illegally*



soulweaver said:


> he/she has shown me x-rays of red eared sliders.
> 
> they put them down as long neck turtles on the books.


What would he/she put a Galapagos (sp?) Island tortise down as? A cold-blooded pony? :lol: Ahhh, a reptile-pony, the best of both worlds!


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## peterescue (Mar 20, 2006)

soulweaver said:


> he/she has shown me x-rays of red eared sliders.
> 
> they put them down as long neck turtles on the books.



Why would you bother, It doesnt make them any less illegal infact its falsifying a legal document; in this case your fauna record book; and a criminal offence.
Does that mean its only idiots who keep them SW????

ps, I can show you xrays of red eared sliders too. Do I need to thaw them out for the xray?


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## soulweaver (Mar 20, 2006)

you implying you keeps sliders peter?


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## Jason (Mar 20, 2006)

morelia-man: This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.

i think people cant really understand the potential outcomes of exotics unless they look right into the history of australia and our records of introduced species that are causeing huge problems. for example, somebody mentioned camals before, that is a great exaple, australia has more camels then any other country in the would, we have hundreds of millions of rabbits, heeps of buffilo and foxes. in the last 200 yrs we have had 17 of our natve mammals go extinct because of the pest we have introduced. if you havent relised a trend here well what will it take. if you want to know why they have become pests, its because the environment is ideal and they have no natural predators and a crap load of food. i beleive if they where legalised within 20 yrs we would have a large problem with wild exotics, look over seas most of there exotic reptiles have been let go cause they are to large, scary, expensive to care for. look what happened in sydney, two crocs where found in a few weeks of each othe....why....because people let them go cause they where probably to big and dangerous for them to care for any more.
we dont know the out come but from looking at other countrys with the problem that potentialy threatens us if we are allowed to keep them, we can see that the risk is way to high. i cant really think of anything else to say but if you want to sit there and ague for keeping them then mayby you could go get a yr 12 biology text book and read about introduced pests, and the damaging impacts they have on ecosystems, not just at a local level but also at a much larger scale.


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## Hickson (Mar 20, 2006)

Tristis said:


> hix if you aquire the animal legaly it can be done.you can have exotics on a display license you just have to fill out all the paper work.



The majority of people on this site don't have the time or finances to be an Exhibitor. That's why I was ignoring it. You can start your own zoo and have your own exotics that way too.

But for the average reptile keeper, they can't have them.



Hix


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## zulu (Mar 20, 2006)

*re keeping*

You can get macaws and african parrots just heaps of exotic birds and dogs and cats and camels and newts,the reptiles are here to stay too.Hardly exotic all the corns and boas etc,like most of the humans and dogs and cats and ferrets and toads and goldfish and crap are also exotics get over it there is more important prioritys for government to worry about like regulating banks and the economy.


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## Jason (Mar 20, 2006)

> You can get macaws and african parrots just heaps of exotic birds and dogs and cats and camels and newts,the reptiles are here to stay too.Hardly exotic all the corns and boas etc,like most of the humans and dogs and cats and ferrets and toads and goldfish and crap are also exotics


that is true and look at the problems they have all caused, including us we're the reason they are all here, so we should keep the number of exotics to a minimum to reduce the risk of further problems. its true there here and they are here to stay but legalising them will just promote more breeding and a larger abundance of particular species which can lead to problems, by leaving it ilegal the abundance is dramaticaly reduced.


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## Splitmore (Mar 20, 2006)

> if you talk to vets, they will say off record that they arn't supposed to treat them


According to Mike Cannon vets are bound by a code of ethics to treat ALL sick animals regardless if they are illegal or not. It is not their position to decide or question if they are illegal or not, just to treat them.


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## Simple (Mar 20, 2006)

Just another thought, wasn't snake mites introduced by exotic snakes???


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## zulu (Mar 20, 2006)

*re keeping*

Cant see the point you know honestly,the exotic reptiles are out there in substantial numbers and people wont give them up and i doubt many would even want to be licensed not much me or jeff hardy or the man in the moons gonna do about it,tuff tittys.We will take the SAS out of afganistan to find them,its like the intergrade debate a waste of time,you can just help by not keeping them yourself,god my iguanas make a terrible rackett in the ceiling jumping up an down like theys on steroids this time of year :wink:


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## peterescue (Mar 20, 2006)

Splitmore said:


> > if you talk to vets, they will say off record that they arn't supposed to treat them
> 
> 
> According to Mike Cannon vets are bound by a code of ethics to treat ALL sick animals regardless if they are illegal or not. It is not their position to decide or question if they are illegal or not, just to treat them.



yeah, Its called a bank account access code.

They aren't bound to treat anything. Its not like they have a Hoppocratic Oath.
Its their own choice. lets face it, a lot of people become vets because they are soppy animal lovers aren't they :twisted:


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## peterescue (Mar 20, 2006)

soulweaver said:


> you implying you keeps sliders peter?



I dont own any turtles. Why? Do you keep exotics Luke?


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## zulu (Mar 20, 2006)

*re keeping*

OOh yeh superpete,drive it into those bullys,so macho!  I love it so much when your nasty!!! you little brute you :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

yayo said:


> This is just my opinion but I really doubt that a few exotics escaping and breeding would make a massive impact on Australias ECO system I think its just a case of the government trying to flex its muscles and show they have power like lets face it the government brought one animal we will never get rid of and are breeding worse then rabbits and moving into parts of Australia where the government said they could never survive (Im talking about cane toads).
> We can't Import any "non-native" reptiles unless you have a permit for a zoo etc but yet we can import exotic mice and rats which have been known to harbour serious diseases which have killed humans (They say we aren't far from another bought of the black plague which wipped millions of people out)We can also import some exotic fish species which are not meant to be able to survive in "wild Australian conditions" but we are now seeing Pond,rivers,drainage systems over run with such fish as Discus and Red devils which are thriving in Queensland.
> And if you walk into an aquarium shop 90% of fish in there are illegal to import but the government will allow them to be kept without legal action, So if you import them your screwed but if you are keeping them as pets and didn't import them you are sweet as pie. Just another case of the government's double standards.
> I do like many exotics but I really like our native Carpets and tree snakes so i am content and don't feel the need to keep any.
> ...



There seem to be a few people that don't understand what I was saying so i will make it as simple as possible here it goes:

1)I was saying the government bought the biggest pest into australia (the cane toad) after they started to become out of control they said that the cane toads would not be able to survive in the colder parts of australia ( which they are now also thriving in)

2)When I was talking about a few exotics not ruining our eco system this is what i meant, There are probably 100's-1000's of exotics in the wild already and we arent seeing any visible impact (yet) but im guessing that exotics have been here since the hobby started so in theory how many years would it take to tell the damage (If any) they have done/are doing/will do? How many exotics do you think escape/ are let go into the wild each year and how many of them would survive after predation,freezing winters (In some parts in Aus),traffic,people who enjoy killing unfamiliar snakes? So i think only a handful of them would grow old enough to become adults.

I don't condone keeping ANY reptile illegaly exotic or otherwise.
Im pretty sure i explained it pretty well the first time so im not sure why people couldn't understand what i was saying.

P.S you all have your own opinions so let me have mine


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## buck (Mar 22, 2006)

yayo said:


> yayo said:
> 
> 
> > This is just my opinion but I really doubt that a few exotics escaping and breeding would make a massive impact on Australias ECO system I think its just a case of the government trying to flex its muscles and show they have power like lets face it the government brought one animal we will never get rid of and are breeding worse then rabbits and moving into parts of Australia where the government said they could never survive (Im talking about cane toads).
> ...



Yayo, I don't think anybody was questioning your opinion. I think most just struggled with the logic the way it was written.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

What way it was written?
All "i's" are dotted and all makes perfect sence if you take the time to read it for what it is.


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## buck (Mar 22, 2006)

...hmmmm because if you re -read the whole thread you will surely see that I am the only one who thinks your first paragraph makes no sense


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

Tell me what part dosen't make sence to you 
*waits for whole post*


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## Kris (Mar 22, 2006)

I'm sorry...am I the only one who sees the humour in Yayo's repeated references to being multilingual when he's failed to exhibit a decent grasp of spelling and grammar in the one language he's used so far? :shock:


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 22, 2006)

I was completely confused by the post. I didn't think it was legal to import foreign mice/rats...as far as I know, they are under the same laws as guinea pigs. You cannot import foreign guinea pigs as far as I am aware (this might differ if you were a scientist- I think theres an 'experiment' loophole). 

And Yayo, the reason the 'exotics' that would have been released into the wild so far (excluding the ones bought in by the government), haven't been able to cause any environmental damage is because they are not legal. They are NOT in great numbers as they would be, should the government make it legal to own them. People would be breeding them (therefore increasing their numbers) and with many people owning them, there is an increased risk of them being released into the wild, whether accidentally (escapes etc) or on purpose (idiots no longer wanting them etc). And in common numbers, they could cause a problem. 

Whether we think so or not, anything is possible, and by ignoring that, we doom ourselves to continue to make the same mistake (rabbits, foxes, cane toads...the list goes on).


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## Pythoninfinite (Mar 22, 2006)

The real problem is Australia itself - we have a huge diversity of habitats on this continent, from alpine to hot dry deserts to wet tropics, enough to accommodate virtually any species in the world if it finds its way into a suitable niche. Your boas, burms, iguanas and others might not thrive outside in the locations of our major cities where cool to cold winters would knock them off, but they could feasibly do very well in the tropical wetlands further north. Temperate species will do very nicely in Melbourne & Sydney - corns & red eared sliders are just 2 examples.

It's worth remembering that the herp craze is a relatively recent phenomenon, with captive breeding in any numbers an artefact of only the past 20-25 years or so (I've been around a lot longer than that). We knew nothing of the importance of thermal cycling for breeding etc until relatively recently. Hence the huge amount of captive bred stuff available now, and the growing popularity of reptiles and amphibs as pets. Captive breeding is allowing the hobby to grow exponentially, so there is increasing pressure to get more & more into the system. The more animals in the system, the bigger the risk of escapes, or far more likely, the bigger the risk of deliberate release into the wild by those unaware of the implications of their actions. 

There is a massive diversity of beautiful Australian animals legally available to us all (except in WA (again!)), but that won't be enough for those always want more. I can appreciate the beauty and impressiveness of some of the exotic species, and even understand the desire to have them if you can, but until the difficulties they can create (disease, environmental destruction etc) are sorted, they should not be widely available. We don't hear about it much, but IBD and OPMV are 2 incurable viral diseases which are making their way through herp collections in Australia at the moment. In this country we have the largest and most diverse range of pythons in the world. Who knows what the long-term impacts of these diseases will be on that part of our herp heritage?

Jamie.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

Kris said:


> I'm sorry...am I the only one who sees the humour in Yayo's repeated references to being multilingual when he's failed to exhibit a decent grasp of spelling and grammar in the one language he's used so far? :shock:



:roll: If you can't understand my original post then perhaps you should worry more about going back to school then hanging around a snake site :roll:


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## Kris (Mar 22, 2006)

Pmfsl, you're priceless.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

AntaresiaLady said:


> I was completely confused by the post. I didn't think it was legal to import foreign mice/rats...as far as I know, they are under the same laws as guinea pigs. You cannot import foreign guinea pigs as far as I am aware (this might differ if you were a scientist- I think theres an 'experiment' loophole).
> 
> And Yayo, the reason the 'exotics' that would have been released into the wild so far (excluding the ones bought in by the government), haven't been able to cause any environmental damage is because they are not legal. They are NOT in great numbers as they would be, should the government make it legal to own them. People would be breeding them (therefore increasing their numbers) and with many people owning them, there is an increased risk of them being released into the wild, whether accidentally (escapes etc) or on purpose (idiots no longer wanting them etc). And in common numbers, they could cause a problem.
> 
> Whether we think so or not, anything is possible, and by ignoring that, we doom ourselves to continue to make the same mistake (rabbits, foxes, cane toads...the list goes on).



I didn't say they wouldn't be breeding if they were released im saying HOW MANY OF THEM WOULD SURVIVE???
i will start drawing pictures for some of you


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## Kris (Mar 22, 2006)

lmgdfao....keep it coming....


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

Is there a reason you are buzzing around like a pest?


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## Kris (Mar 22, 2006)

I'm just waiting for you to stop attacking people and start actually backing up what you're saying. Feel free to ignore me ........


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## buck (Mar 22, 2006)

Yayo, I love how it's everyone else who seems to have the problem because you make no sense.


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## OdessaStud (Mar 22, 2006)

*keeping ilegaly?rats and mice*

Sorry if im a bit slow but did i read correctly that rats and mice can be inported from other countries.
Not wanting to get involved in the politics of this topic just would like to know if that is what was written and if so please tell me how i go about doing it,id love to get a pure hairless rat in from USA.
Cheers Odessa Rodents


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## Hickson (Mar 22, 2006)

The Rats and Mice are lab animals imported from quarantine facilities overseas. They can only be imported by a Hospital or Research laboratory that is an approved quarantine facility, and they must have a valid permit. The animals are humanely euthanased at the end of the research project.



Hix


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## peterescue (Mar 22, 2006)

Not one of my rodents could produce a valid permit when requested to do so. I have taken extreme measures.
Yes, thatrs right Ive thrown them over the fence at Villawood.


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## buck (Mar 22, 2006)

peterescue said:


> Not one of my rodents could produce a valid permit when requested to do so. I have taken extreme measures.
> Yes, thatrs right Ive thrown them over the fence at Villawood.



Gee that's pretty extreme measures Peter. I mean what are the chances they will survive? :roll:


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## zulu (Mar 22, 2006)

Pete said :


> Not one of my rodents could produce a valid permit when requested to do so. I have taken extreme measures.
> Yes, thatrs right Ive thrown them over the fence at Villawood.


LOL you dont know how close that is pete,i know one lot of corns and boas went over the back fence when a raid was carried out at gosford and yes baby corns survive the winter in sydney and grow up as i was told by someone,they are a genuine threat.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

When did these raids happen?
Is there a link/thread i can read about them in?


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## NinaPeas (Mar 22, 2006)

wow...what a post...

I just think it's unfortunate that we have introduced species, and invariably, an introduced animal takes over the home/food of a native species. But it's also unfortunate that I dont think there is really a way to solve it 

Just to throw a spanner in the works (dont want an argument) jsut curious, an animals/insects that come to australia say, stuck on a log from another island, or swept over in a hurricane, are they introduced? Although unless a male and a female land next to each other, prolly dont have to worry about them spreading.


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## reptililian (Mar 22, 2006)

*keeping illegally*



buck said:


> peterescue said:
> 
> 
> > Not one of my rodents could produce a valid permit when requested to do so. I have taken extreme measures.
> ...



They may survive, but NOT IN OUR COUNTRY! They get shipped back to their country of origin even if they do not have citizenship in that country, have not lived there since they were two years old, do not know the language and have no social network to speak of!

Good on you, Amanda Vanstone :roll:


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## buck (Mar 22, 2006)

*keeping illegally*



reptililian said:


> buck said:
> 
> 
> > peterescue said:
> ...



Wow you are really opening a can of worms here... :shock:


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## reptililian (Mar 22, 2006)

Can't be worse than what's been going on already, surely! :wink:


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## Greebo (Mar 22, 2006)

All my neighbours know about my exotics, so if I was silly enough to dump them over the fence, they would know exactly where they came from.


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## buck (Mar 22, 2006)

reptililian said:


> Can't be worse than what's been going on already, surely! :wink:



Oh I think so. At this point in time I am not game to touch it. :lol:


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## Hickson (Mar 22, 2006)

buck said:


> peterescue said:
> 
> 
> > Not one of my rodents could produce a valid permit when requested to do so. I have taken extreme measures.
> ...



Quite righht. In Villawood they would very quickly end up in one of the local restaurants as an entree.



Hix


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 22, 2006)

Yayo said :
'I didn't say they wouldn't be breeding if they were released im saying HOW MANY OF THEM WOULD SURVIVE??? 
i will start drawing pictures for some of you '

Yayo, Pythoninfinite said:
'Your boas, burms, iguanas and others might not thrive outside in the locations of our major cities where cool to cold winters would knock them off, but they could feasibly do very well in the tropical wetlands further north. Temperate species will do very nicely in Melbourne & Sydney - corns & red eared sliders are just 2 examples.' 

Couldn't have said it better myself. And I don't need pictures thankyou, there is no need to get uptight and insulting- I've not been derogatory to you at all.


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## AntaresiaLady (Mar 22, 2006)

Thankyou Hix for clarifying the scientific loophole for me...I knew there was one!


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## Luke_G (Mar 22, 2006)

Hello all, I also work in a petshop fulltime. You wont believe the number of stories you hear, But telling if there true or false is another story.

Cheers Luke


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## Jason (Mar 26, 2006)

> Hello all, I also work in a petshop fulltime. You wont believe the number of stories you hear, But telling if there true or false is another story.


i know how you feel, some kid has come back twice know telling me he has all these wild couhgt animals in a very small tank, they are very different in size and he has know heat or UV ( i mentioned ihm in an earlier post) when he came in yesterday i told him to release them already before you kill them, if your not going to buy food or give them there basic needs your slowly going to kill them. i dont think he even cares, he asked me how to sex them, i wanted to ask him to meet me somewhere and i will sex them for him, and then just take off with them and let them go, he has only had two of them for a week.

and as ZULU said, the whole dumping them over the back fence in a raid, i have heard the same story and i have heard thet there are ment to be corns in the gosford area that have probably survived.


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## Sdaji (Mar 26, 2006)

Where would you release them? That's irresponsible and illegal.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 26, 2006)

Sdaji said:


> For the record, I've spent more than a year researching distribution modelling/bioclimatic analysis (understanding why things live where they do and predicting where they'd be capable of living). This research will wind up next month, I'll be most relieved!


 I'd be very interested in reading this if your happy to send out copies!



Sdaji said:


> Bunnies aren't poisonous, neither are cats, in fact, both are very palatable. That doesn't seem to have slowed them down much!


 I'd say thats more likley because mammals are capable of extending their range alot faster than reptiles.



Hix said:


> That's the same argument the govt used back in the 30's.
> "Rabbits and foxes have nothing to do with it - they are completely different to a toad."


 Possibly because they didn’t have the level of technology & research facilities that we have today! I wouldn’t imagine they'd come to the same conclusion now!




Diccoi said:


> Considering we have the most diverse and largest number of reptiles in the world


 Really ? well stone the crows !! i thought you just had the highest percentage of venomous species. Cool, more reason for me to move there !



Sdaji said:


> Okay, you want reptile examples...the species of reptiles which are feral in Australia are not poisonous (Red Eared Sliders, Flower Pot Snakes, Asian House Geckoes)


 Red ears & house geckoes are living wild in so many countries it would be hard to say how many for sure,and there arent really any reports of them being too much of a problem, as for Ramphotyphlops, lets remember it has managed to inhabit 3/4 of the world because it is small (easily transported undetected) and its parthenogenic ! ! 



Morelia_Hunter said:


> Good point Dicco. It is a reptile paradise. I am just wondering what the chances would be of 2 ferral corn snakes coming into contact with each other!


 Even if they were both released in sydney, considering thier range capabilities & other predators.... i'd still say very rare.....but the problem would be........... there would never be just 2 exotic snakes loose !



basketcase said:


> bottom line if someone wants a boa (or any other species), they will get one. this will never change, and thats why the government needs to change its point of view on the subject.


 Could'nt agree more.



Jason said:


> morelia-man: This is a reptile forum isnt it. We are discussing exotic reptiles are we not? I dont think bunnies and cats and camels have anything to do with the capability of a reptile to inhabit and occupy a new habitat! Always clever.


 ?????????????????????? have you been smoking something ? or was this directed at someone else ? :wink: the thing is with mammals .....if they dont like their surroundings they can wander around to find a new one, reptiles usually dont have that level of mobility, they stay there & either survive or die out !



Peterescue said:


> I dont own any turtles. Why? Do you keep exotics Luke?


 I do.... Ive got loads of exotics..........what would you like ? :lol: 



Krisi said:


> I'm sorry...am I the only one who sees the humour in Yayo's repeated references to being multilingual when he's failed to exhibit a decent grasp of spelling and grammar in the one language he's used so far?


 Any chance we could stay on the topic of reptiles & not turn it into some kind of childish bickering match about spelling & punctuation AGAIN !!!, personally I couldn’t give 2 turds if someone’s spelling & grammar isn’t 100%, its that "petty" thing again !...you could be nice ! It doesn’t cost anything! :wink: 



AntaresiaLady said:


> And Yayo, the reason the 'exotics' that would have been released into the wild so far (excluding the ones bought in by the government), haven't been able to cause any environmental damage is because they are not legal. They are NOT in great numbers as they would be, should the government make it legal to own them. People would be breeding them (therefore increasing their numbers) and with many people owning them, there is an increased risk of them being released into the wild, whether accidentally (escapes etc) or on purpose (idiots no longer wanting them etc). And in common numbers, they could cause a problem.


 Well i dunno about that ! we don't have cornsnakes wild in the UK ? they can survive our winters, we have 100,000's of legal cornsnakes here ! but no wild population yet !! 



AntaresiaLady said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself. And I don't need pictures thankyou, there is no need to get uptight and insulting- I've not been derogatory to you at all..


 I thought he said "some of you" i dont think he diredted it at anyone personally ! 



Pythoninfinite said:


> We knew nothing of the importance of thermal cycling for breeding etc until relatively recently


 Really ? how long have you known ? we've been doing it here in europe for 15-20 years ! not only reptiles but other species too !! 



Any chance we could make this thread sticky so we dont have to go through it again ?


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## peterescue (Mar 26, 2006)

thankyou for that fine effort. I'd like some tortoises, I will email you the species I would prefer but Im not fussy.


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## Moreliaman (Mar 26, 2006)

Greebo said:


> All my neighbours know about my exotics, so if I was silly enough to dump them over the fence, they would know exactly where they came from.


Does that mean you dont want this next shipment ? :wink: :lol:


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## Trademarknick (Apr 7, 2006)

I dont think you can use the arguement of some of the pest species, alot were delibratly release and long time ago before there was study into the effects.

I would like to see exotics but at the same time i cant agree to it and say NO.

It is too easy to obtain licenses now (just a money making scheme if you ask me)
No checking of enclosures or any appropriate training.
Some VERY dodgy DIY cost cutting enclosures i have seen.
If you can t afford the basic you shouldnt be allowed to hosue the animal.
If you have trouble with this how will you find money to appropriatly care for an animal?
Food,cost of elec, vet bills etc.

simple testing would help, based on housing etc and harsher fines or lose of license for losing animals in capitivity.

IMO there really is no excuse.

I myself have kept birds for years never once lost a bird escaping
Quite easy to put to add safety walk ways etc.

It is the small group of people that spoil it by not caring or containing there animals properly.

It is not hard at too stop your animals escaping.

Im new to herps but i still know they is no chance my snakes will escape.
Simple planning solves every problem.


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## AntaresiaLady (Apr 8, 2006)

[quote"AntaresiaLady']AntaresiaLady wrote: ?Couldn't have said it better myself. And I don't need pictures thankyou, there is no need to get uptight and insulting- I've not been derogatory to you at all..[/quote]

[quote"Moreliaman'I thought he said "some of you" i dont think he diredted it at anyone personally ! [/quote]

Moreliaman- The comment he made was in response to something I stated. Thats why I said what I said. Its no big deal- everyone is allowed to have their own opinions- what matters is HOW you express them. 

Everyone has raised valid points both for and against. Its been nothing if not an eye opener.


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## Moreliaman (Apr 8, 2006)

Its funny how people can get their knickers in a twist over such small insignificant things (directed at no one! :roll

Im glad i wear boxer shorts...they chafe less !! :lol:


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## cris (Apr 9, 2006)

I agree with most of what has been said but heres my 2c  
Anyone saying exotics are harmless to us clearly has no idea :roll: 
I personally think it would be better to have some regulation of all the exotics entering our country. The problem is it would need to be done properly by ppl who arnt complete idiots(eg. politicians and beurocrats). - wont happen
Or simply crack down hard on ppl illegally importing exotics(more so than drugs, guns etc) this would involve reintroduction of capital punishment, lots of money and specialist police squads - wont happen

So all we can do is hope noone brings in a disease with their illegal cargo and we might be ok, if we are lucky.

I cant remember who mentioned how its better for the government(for them) to leave it the way it is to avoid responsibilty for any bad stuff, but i think that is one of the main reasons things are the way they are.
Im still waiting for them to say sorry for introducing canetoads and gambusia :roll: :lol: 

I think it would be technically possible to allow some exotic species to be kept without problem, eg. i cant imagine galopogis tortoises taking over our country.
All non herp exotics are permitted in this way. For example many species of exotic fish can be kept here legally those deemed to be a threat are declared noxious or just illegal imports. Cats are the main present threat to our native animals and are still allowed under no regulation at all :evil: except mine bang!!! :lol: 

IMO there are probably some exotic reptiles that arnt a threat.

At the end of the day most ppl dont know or couldnt care less about what effect illegally imported exotic animals have, that is the main problem.
The only realistic solution to the problem is education, and even that is a pipe dream IMO

Here is another can of worms just opened :wink: what about keeping reptiles that dont naturally live in your area, they pose the same threat as exotic species in some ways, in some cases. Ppl have only recently caught onto this with native fish and the detrimental effect they have when introduced into new areas.
This is also more of a problem with temperatures rising.


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## Fuscus (Apr 10, 2006)

There seems to be an argument that because some people keep exotics then they should be made legal. This is the same as saying some people speed on some people stab others so that these should also be made legal.

Also because exotics are (perceived to be) common then they should be legal. Catch a few _Gambusia affinis_ and tell NP that you keep them to find their attitude. Expect to pay heaps. Also it’s illegal to keep sparrows in some states.

And the argument seems to be keeping exotics - i.e. all exotics. If a few species were made legal then I bet that the very next week someone will post "Why can't we keep .. ?" and name a species not on the list. The argument won't change just the boundaries.

Also what makes a species invasive? 20 years ago anyone would have said the AHG was not invasive. Current thinking is that if a species can establish a foot hold then it may become an invasive species by either the animal evolving into one or the environment changing to suit the species. Its best to not to test if the animal is invasive as other pet hobbies seem to do constantly.

And even though it appears that the AHG has not displaced any native species yet, it is filling the ecological niche and preventing a native species from becoming adapted to it. Imagine what birds could be hanging around suburban yards if the sparrow wasn't there.

There is a counter argument in that some native animals may come to depend on the AHG for food and thus provide a new niche. 

People seem to think that escapes will only happen rarely and only one or two at a time and that there will be very few animals kept. The fact that animals could be mass dumped or a snake room could become compromised seems to be ignored. There were only 101 cane toads introduced, a dumping of 30 corns could have the same effect, especially if dumped in a suitable area like a rubbish dump.


IMHO people who advocate the keeping of exotics (including fish, birds and plants) seem to have the same mindset as people who smoke, ignore the possible consequences and savior the fleeting pleasure.


http://www.nrm.qld.gov.au/pests/pest_animals/declared/american_corn_snake.html
http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/lists/import/gazette/reticulated-burmese-pythons.html
http://www.ento.csiro.au/research/pdf/ento_ctgeneral.pdf


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## moosenoose (Apr 10, 2006)

We're exotics and look at the damage we've caused! :shock: :lol:

I'd believe the vast majority of the "exotics" already here have been raised in this country anyway, the disease factor issue would then have to be very minimal IMO.

So what about the people who are allowed to keep these animals "legally"? And there are quite a few. Are they "more" responsible than anyone else? Are they the only people who are capable of following the strict guidelines that are imposed on them? All seems a bit strange to me.


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## cris (Apr 10, 2006)

> We're exotics and look at the damage we've caused!


People naturally live everywhere on earth and in space for that matter, so we arnt exotics IMO.



> I'd believe the vast majority of the "exotics" already here have been raised in this country anyway, the disease factor issue would then have to be very minimal IMO.


I dont understand that point :? are you saying there arnt any potentially dangerous diseases in other countries?


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## Kersten (Apr 10, 2006)

Ummm I believe the point he's making is that exotic animals which have been bred in this country wouldn't have the diseases which are present in the countries their species originate from. 

There were no humans on this particular continent til less 50,000 years. A fair whack of time after the "creation" of the earth. So in the context of this discussion....we are exotics.


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## moosenoose (Apr 10, 2006)

Got it in one Kersten. 

This argument will always be a topic of debate. We allow all sorts of exotics animals into this country, and I find it funny that people who are fanatical about reptiles seem to be the ones making the biggest noise about it. 

What ever happened to words like "quarantine" and "responsibility"? This debate will still be ongoing in 20 years time.


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## cris (Apr 10, 2006)

Oh i get ya now, im just a bit slow sometimes :wink: 
I thought you might have been saying since nothing too bad has happend yet, it should be ok to keep importing stuff, my bad.


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## Hickson (Apr 11, 2006)

moosenoose said:


> So what about the people who are allowed to keep these animals "legally"? And there are quite a few. Are they "more" responsible than anyone else? Are they the only people who are capable of following the strict guidelines that are imposed on them?



NSW DEC spoke at the last meeting of the Macarthur Herp Society, and said that in NSW there are only 15 exotic licenses. They were issued under the 1997 amnesty. As for those people being more responsible, or following the strict guidlines, that remains to be seen. I know of one instance where the licensee completely ignored the terms of his license, and I've heard of many other instances where this happens too.

As for diseases, we have OPMV, IBD and Reovirus here now, and they weren't in this country 5 years ago. Obviously some reptiles have been smuggled into the country in the last few years.



Hix


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