# Dont be so harsh on newbies....



## montysrainbow (Apr 16, 2013)

Im pretty much one myself as u all know. I have seen a few comments directed at newbies that makes me feel  people are simply trying to learn more and share their experience and love of reptiles. Also some newbies have loved reptiles all their life! however didn't get their 1st until now....doesn't make them any less worthy of being a member on here. Please don't be mean, everyone has to start somewhere :| make love not war.


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## woody101 (Apr 16, 2013)

I totally agree with you thats the one bad thing about APS is all the nasty comments


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## Umbral (Apr 16, 2013)

Shut up Woody, no one is nasty here


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm sometimes blunt with new keepers - if they haven't even researched the basics of reptile needs before getting an animal. Coming to APS AFTER you've bought your snake or whatever and then asking the most basic questions about its needs is putting the cart way before the horse in my opinion. Animals are not like iPhones or other consumable gadgets which you can put away in a drawer until someone can show you how to use it, but unfortunately they are becoming commodities which are too easily acquired, and will break if not treated correctly.

My view is that intending keepers should be able to demonstrate a knowledge of basic husbandry skills, and perhaps a link with an experienced keeper, before being issued with a licence to keep reptiles. All the over-regulation of licenced keepers now in place in NSW stands for nothing while new keepers can walk in off the street and get a licence, and acquire a reptile, without even the most basic understanding of its needs.

A lot of the irritation I feel when those newbies come onto APS and start asking questions (to which they should know the answers before getting their pet) is directed toward those APS members who set themselves up as experts after only 10 minutes of keeping, and offer (frequently misleading but often insistent) advice to newbies, based on their own limited experience. Many of these new keepers have an expectation that reptiles are now domesticated animals, and all natural instincts and behaviours are bred out of them in the past 2-3 generations. Nothing could be further from the truth - a captive-bred Carpet Python hisses at its new owner - this shouldn't even raise a question here (because Carpet Pythons hiss at anything that disturbs them when they want to be alone - it's true!)... but it did because the EXPECTATION was that a 6yo Carpet should be well behaved based on past history. And then it becomes evident that the keeper doesn't know what to do about the snake when it exhibits quite normal, but unexpected behaviour. All this should be understood BEFORE the acquisition of the animal.

My rant for the day...

Jamie


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## montysrainbow (Apr 16, 2013)

Pythoninfinite said:


> I'm sometimes blunt with new keepers - if they haven't even researched the basics of reptile needs before getting an animal. Coming to APS AFTER you've bought your snake or whatever and then asking the most basic questions about its needs is putting the cart way before the horse in my opinion. Animals are not like iPhones or other consumable gadgets which you can put away in a drawer until someone can show you how to use it, but unfortunately they are becoming commodities which are too easily acquired, and will break if not treated correctly.
> 
> My view is that intending keepers should be able to demonstrate a knowledge of basic husbandry skills, and perhaps a link with an experienced keeper, before being issued with a licence to keep reptiles. All the over-regulation of licenced keepers now in place in NSW stands for nothing while new keepers can walk in off the street and get a licence, and acquire a reptile, without even the most basic understanding of its needs.
> 
> ...




yes I hear u and I understand what your saying its just sometimes a simple question is asked and people get advised to use google! or search the forum. I know not everyone on here is mean infact most are very welcoming lol but sometimes some people need to think before they type. that is all


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 16, 2013)

montysrainbow said:


> yes I hear u and I understand what your saying its just sometimes a simple question is asked and people get advised to use google! or search the forum. I know not everyone on here is mean infact most are very welcoming lol but sometimes some people need to think before they type. that is all



I always try and explain WHY a certain thing should or shouldn't be done... Like the refreezing rat question - comes up again and again here, and the same people chime in and say you're asking for trouble if you do that - "never feed a snake something you wouldn't eat yourself...!" I actually don't eat rats or mice, and if I did, I wouldn't eat a refrozen one because my digestive system and my resistance to bacterial infection is very different to that of a snake. When you actually explain that a snake's digestive system is very slow compared to ours, and they don't chew their food into easily broken down mush the way we do, so the food item usually begins to rot for a few days in the snake's stomach before the digestive juices get in and clean it up, it begins to make sense that a rodent which has been thawed for 2-3 hours can be refrozen and used again without harm, if it isn't eaten the first time.

That's not to say that keepers don't have the right to choose NOT to refreeze - it is their choice after all - but the reasoning behind that choice is often the result of poor understanding of the way a snake's insides work, and the tendency to liken snakes to humans on a physiological level... and don't even get me started on the psychological stuff !

Jamie


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## M.Carinata (Apr 16, 2013)

I am also new the keeping reptiles but did a great amount of research prior to getting my critters. At this stage I avoid trying to give advise on the basis it could very well be wrong. But at the end of the day, what would you rather? A "newbie" having their husbandry skills wrong and affecting these animals that we all share a love of, or deal with an annoying question, which you could ignore if you choose to.

Jamie has a very valid point, new keepers should do some research on whichever species they intend to keep before they acquire them. Though some of the flamings on this site are incredible and very off putting. After all, us "No0bs" are the future of this hobby and we're human beings with a right to be treated with respect. 

Just take peoples feelings into account, harsh words hurt more than one would realise and we don't know what else is going on in the others life.

As Gran always said "Treat others how you wish to be treated"


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## LaraJane (Apr 16, 2013)

I agree with both Montysrainbow and pythoninfinate. I'm a newbie, got my first snake a Darwin albino Hatchy (she is adorable, her name is Luna, i will post a pic after her first shed with me ) about 1 month ago and considering im so new to it all it even annoys me when a newbie asks a stupid question like the 6yo python hissing story, so for all the experienced reptile owners/breeders etc on here it must really peeve them off when you can tell the person has done zero research whatsoever.

And then there are newbie and not so newbie questions that some people just think they can be rude too because they seem to know the answer and the other person doesn't. Which is just silly because we are all on here to gain knowledge and share experiences.


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## jacorin (Apr 16, 2013)

just a question jamie,how would you propose newbies to get a link with an experienced keeper?? yeh there might be a lot of experienced ppl out there,but most if not all,wont let you near their place let alone give you info and help..... the reptile world is a place of hush hush and secrecy,thats what ive observed anyway....my reptile gathering was started on a whim,bought in a carpark sale,cause "god forbid" i might see what they had,let alone get information out of them.


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## mad_at_arms (Apr 16, 2013)

jacorin said:


> just a question jamie,how would you propose newbies to get a link with an experienced keeper??



Buy their books and read them.


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## Brodie (Apr 16, 2013)

Funny how rude people can be when they don't have to deal with the consequences face to face.

Jamie, you may be blunt, but I have never seen a post of yours that is out of line. Other people are very aggressive.

Jacorin, more than one person on here has had their snakes stolen. I know of four people that have been held at gun point while this was happening. I can understand breeders keeping others away from their collection. There is obviously a risk of disease as well.


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## phatty (Apr 16, 2013)

well keeping reptiles is only a new thing for all of us (as a hobby) so really we are all newbies some people have a far greater knowledge that others (the likes of Jamie /blue and many others) but at the end of the day no one really knows the requirements. 
it not like a dog that has been a pet for 1000's of years


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## jacorin (Apr 16, 2013)

books? yeh ok i'll agree to that,but sitting down to read puts me to sleep,would be better doing it face to face... if you think im being rude brodie,well thats your call,all i did was ask a question,so that makes me agressive? .... i also know a lot of bird breeders who have had the same happen to them,esp with the higher end birds they had,but birdies are a lot friendlier and more open about things IMO, i dont see the reptile diseases being anymore dangerous than the avian ones,but im probly wrong,more often than not i am. there are a lot more experienced birdies on here than me.


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## Brodie (Apr 16, 2013)

Chill out jacorin. Not once did i accuse you of being rude or aggressive.


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## Ramsayi (Apr 16, 2013)

These days there is a massive amount of info available on the interwebs.More and more it seems that a lot of new keepers want to be spoon fed even the most basic stuff.


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## littlemay (Apr 16, 2013)

I think a lot of the time when newbies come on asking questions on fairly basic husbandry it's not necessarily that they haven't done any research, it's that they are overwhelmed by the amount of conflicting information available on the internet these days and are wanting to chat with someone directly to figure out what's what.

When i was considering my first snake i got pretty confused over many things because everyone seemed to have a different opinion. In the end i got myself a couple of good books on the advice of several members here and decided i could be pretty safe with what Mr. Mike Swan had to say. Along the way i probably asked some stupid questions but it wasn't that i had no idea, i was just trying to consolidate my knowledge while at the same time have a nice chat with some like-minded people.

I also don't think it's realistic to expect people to know every single intricate aspect of reptile ownership before embarking on getting their first animal, part of gaining this sort of knowledge comes through experience. While i agree that it is important that new owners have an understanding of how to keep their reptile alive and healthy, i don't think that not knowing all the ins and outs of their animal's behavour is going to do that much harm - maybe a few worried and/or confused threads - but not that much actual harm.


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## Jessie_James (Apr 16, 2013)

The only stupid question is the one that is not asked! I also think that may new keepers are looking for reassurance in the information that they already have. For this hobby to grow in the future we need to show some guidance to the next generation to which may of these questions are coming from.


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## montysrainbow (Apr 16, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> These days there is a massive amount of info available on the interwebs.More and more it seems that a lot of new keepers want to be spoon fed even the most basic stuff.



its called asking for advice....



littlemay said:


> I think a lot of the time when newbies come on asking questions on fairly basic husbandry it's not necessarily that they haven't done any research, it's that they are overwhelmed by the amount of conflicting information available on the internet these days and are wanting to chat with someone directly to figure out what's what.
> 
> When i was considering my first snake i got pretty confused over many things because everyone seemed to have a different opinion. In the end i got myself a couple of good books on the advice of several members here and decided i could be pretty safe with what Mr. Mike Swan had to say. Along the way i probably asked some stupid questions but it wasn't that i had no idea, i was just trying to consolidate my knowledge while at the same time have a nice chat with some like-minded people.
> 
> I also don't think it's realistic to expect people to know every single intricate aspect of reptile ownership before embarking on getting their first animal, part of gaining this sort of knowledge comes through experience. While i agree that it is important that new owners have an understanding of how to keep their reptile alive and healthy, i don't think that not knowing all the ins and outs of their animal's behavour is going to do that much harm - maybe a few worried and/or confused threads - but not that much actual harm.



so true.



Jessie_James said:


> The only stupid question is the one that is not asked! I also think that may new keepers are looking for reassurance in the information that they already have. For this hobby to grow in the future we need to show some guidance to the next generation to which may of these questions are coming from.



couldnt agree more


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## jesus (Apr 16, 2013)

Where all ways learning in this hobby no 1 can say they know it all I get blunt with newbies that don't research basic things the only reason is because I am concerned for the well being of there reptiles and when I first started on this forum Afew years ago people where absolute idiots to me as a newbie luckily tho I have made some very good mates in the hobby and one has taken me under his wing so to speak and I have learnt a bloody lot off one of them


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## Sleazy.P.Martini (Apr 16, 2013)

If someone bought a car and started driving it before they knew how, I'm sure you'd all be very blunt...


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## Snowman (Apr 16, 2013)

jacorin said:


> just a question jamie,how would you propose newbies to get a link with an experienced keeper?? yeh there might be a lot of experienced ppl out there,but most if not all,wont let you near their place let alone give you info and help..... the reptile world is a place of hush hush and secrecy,thats what ive observed anyway....my reptile gathering was started on a whim,bought in a carpark sale,cause "god forbid" i might see what they had,let alone get information out of them.



If you buy from the right breeders then you have a mentor for sure. I always give my number to people and email address who buy my pythons. I answer questions and help in anyway I can. I dont let people come to my house either.... I've formed friendships with some of these people just via emails. They love to show me how their little pet is growing and new enclosures etc... I guess some breeders are jerks but most of the ones I know are great and happy to help. I got my first python from one of Pythoninfinite's mates in WA. He has been a great mentor and taught me the basics as well as things like sexing pythons etc. I have also never been to his house. But he has come to mine when he sold me the python and to show me how to do somethings like sexing the pythons with probes... 
The other thing I did is join the local herp society. I met a ton of people who know their stuff from there too. I moved to WA when I was 30 and havent really gone out of my way to make new mates here. Just family that I hang with mainly... But my reptile friends and aquaintances here are top people  
Other than that... Read, read and read some more... There is heaps of info out there if you are willing to do some searching.


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## NotoriouS (Apr 16, 2013)

Yes, people should be nicer... BUT... if you're going to be offended or hurt by what someone says on an internet forum, then you've got issues.


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## harlemrain (Apr 16, 2013)

Sleazy.P.Martini said:


> If someone bought a car and started driving it before they knew how, I'm sure you'd all be very blunt...



This is true to a point but everyone who drives a car for the first time doesn't really know how. I'm sure they know the basics but I bet they ask alot of dumb questions like who gives way here or how do you put it in neutral. And it helps when learning to drive if the person teaching you doesn't make you feel stupid.

Noone knows everything starting out so yeah I think that you should always research before buying a reptile but what's wrong with using APS and it's many members as a source of information? While I think this should be done BEFORE buying your reptile but there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of other people's experience and using it to help better your knowledge. Why bother joining this site if you can't ask questions/don't want to answer other people's because you deem it "stupid" or "obvious".

Alot of the times it's not what you say but how you say it....

Rant over


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## Snowman (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm blunt.. it's part of my personality and I also have aspergers which explains a lot....  I dont intend for people to get offended but they do sometimes.
I've found some newbies give advice, that is bad advice. In a perfect world people wouldnt give advise unless they have a few years experience. We see a lot of 10min experts.
The other thing that is very annoying is people asking for advice then not wanting to hear the correct answer. They seem to get offended that they are doing something wrong. Despite them asking the question are they doing things the correct way..... 
I keep an open mind. There are so many ways to keep snakes and I'm always learning something new...
It's frustrating to see things like Jamie mentioned about refreezing rodents. It's just an example, but a good example of how people with little to no knowledge lead people astray by insisting something like refreezing is a bad practice. When as Jamie pointed out the rodents decompose in the snakes stomach anyway. They are not humans or mammals!!! 
It would be good if some of the experienced people like Pythoninfinite, Longi etc had a star or something next to their names. Newbies come onto this site and dont know who the experienced people are....


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## andynic07 (Apr 16, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> These days there is a massive amount of info available on the interwebs.More and more it seems that a lot of new keepers want to be spoon fed even the most basic stuff.


You are very right but as a relatively new person to the hobby I have found stuff on the internet that I have mentioned on here and then have been shot down as being wrong. I even posted a care sheet by do little farms about spotted pythons that helped me get started and that was shot down as being full of dribble by another member on here.

I usually do my best to do as much research as I can then cross check it with certain members on here that I have learned to be able to trust. I also have a breeder that is more than willing to answer my questions and give me any help that I need "Creatures of Habit".


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## jack (Apr 16, 2013)

jacorin said:


> just a question jamie,how would you propose newbies to get a link with an experienced keeper??



go along to reptile club meeting...


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## Ramsayi (Apr 16, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I usually do my best to do as much research as I can then cross check it with certain members on here that I have learned to be able to trust.



Nothing wrong with that at all.The ones I am referring to do seemingly zero research in the first place and usually after purchasing a reptile come onto a forum and ask basic questions.If they used a search function they would see the question has been asked and answered many many times over.


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## Jessie_James (Apr 16, 2013)

Create a new forum for people who are new to the game so they can use each other as a sound board without getting snarled at by the more experienced members. Also people need to remember that text can be interpreted many different ways from person to person, but a few replies are just straight out freakin rude! It's that hiding behind computer syndrome lol. All I'm saying is take 5 to consider the 12 year old mind on the otherside of the screen. 9 times outa ten there parents don't want anything to do with the reptile and if I remember rightly I was like a bull at a gate at that age but with the best intentions.


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## RedFox (Apr 16, 2013)

I am very new to keeping and have only owned a snake for less than a year. While I personally haven't being attacked I have seen a few member being shot down both while I have being a member and while I was just a lurker. 

While I have a very small amount of practical experience, I did my homework before buying and luckily have a close friend who I used to help with her pythons and has given me a lot of useful advice. So it can be very annoying that people ask basic questions like feeding, defecating, sloughing, biting, etc.

Recently I vented on here about a certain 12 year old who is a perfect example of trying to be an expert with no research to back him up, as well as asking questions that could easily be answered by the breeder or a two second google search.

Another one of my pet hates are the people who don't know or read the main conditions that go with their license, eg, owning a reptile for minimum 6months. These tend to be the newbies that get a major flaming.


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 16, 2013)

Jessie_James said:


> Create a new forum for people who are new to the game so they can use each other as a sound board without getting snarled at by the more experienced members. .



so newbies can ask other newbies for advice and recieve incorrect advice that they then pass down to the next lot of newbies?


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## Jessie_James (Apr 16, 2013)

No so newbies can look for associated links on this site and point each other to it. Use a few moderators to control it people that don't mind a question of less significance to the rest of the site. Sarcasm noted! Lol


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## montysrainbow (Apr 16, 2013)

Sezzzzzzzzz said:


> so newbies can ask other newbies for advice and recieve incorrect advice that they then pass down to the next lot of newbies?



lol Sezzzzzzzzz good point. cant we all just play together?  as ive mentioned and u all know im a newbie and only have the one but it didnt take me long to clue onto all the pros....ive kinda worked out some members know alot more about this hobby than others and thats great! lol because ive learnt alot from them since joining , and thats why i joined in the 1st place. 

Hopefully in yrs 2 come when i start breeding snakes instead of kids lol and have loads of experience i can be of the same help to future noobs


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## Jessie_James (Apr 16, 2013)

I'd like to see this continue, very interesting.


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## andynic07 (Apr 16, 2013)

I sometimes don't mind a good "flaming". It sometimes is fun to get into a heated intellectual debate , you sometimes end up being right and and sometimes end up being wrong but always learn new things.


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## montysrainbow (Apr 16, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> I sometimes don't mind a good "flaming". It sometimes is fun to get into a heated intellectual debate , you sometimes end up being right and and sometimes end up being wrong but always learn new things.



i used to (when i 1st joined) love hopping on here on a friday night with my bottle of sav blanc lol it was hillarious at times  not newbie related so much but it was funny.


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## Zipidee (Apr 16, 2013)

As a newbie (and I still am) one of the handy links on this site was the Wiki-FAQ section. A lot of basic newbie questions can be answered by reading these. I'd strongly suggest any newbie read these FAQs first, before asking a question, because maybe you'll have it answered for you. Just a thought.


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## TheChondroCharm (Apr 16, 2013)

had a quick skim through all the replies and understand where a lot of the newbies are coming from. 

i personally think its more the repetition of newbie posts that frustrates people. pretty well all newbie questions can be found via the search function and it frustrates me to tears when people dont use it. seeing new threads such as "is this the right temp for my Darwin" or "my new snake wont eat" are two that ive noticed seem to be on a repeat loop and to be honest a blunt answer is what they should get if they wont search. the info hasn't outdated because a thread is a year old.

i also think that previous newbies have ruined chances of friendly in depth replies for new ones. just as if a business made a mistake and people yell at the person on the phone or the attendant, that person didnt personally wrong you but you still yell at them, simply because thats the face of the company at the time. same with newbies, they come and ask the same questions and its not so much a personal attack for lack of knowlege but newbies as a whole and that person is the face there at the time.

Google is also destroying research value i reckon. you can find millions of answers for newbie questions though a lot of the time its contradicting, and the info may be wrong all together. reptiles i believe is a book hobby. buy books and read them, you cant go past a good piece of herp literature. its black and white and doesnt have 100 links to go off tangent. 

for nice replies id also suggest not arguing when given an answer. just take it on board. its quite frustrating when you give advice and they either throw it back in your face saying google said otherwise or saying that doesnt sound right to them. if you ask for advice, take it on board.


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## andynic07 (Apr 16, 2013)

mitchR1 said:


> had a quick skim through all the replies and understand where a lot of the newbies are coming from.
> 
> i personally think its more the repetition of newbie posts that frustrates people. pretty well all newbie questions can be found via the search function and it frustrates me to tears when people dont use it. seeing new threads such as "is this the right temp for my Darwin" or "my new snake wont eat" are two that ive noticed seem to be on a repeat loop and to be honest a blunt answer is what they should get if they wont search. the info hasn't outdated because a thread is a year old.
> 
> ...


You make some very good points there but as I have stated before I would imagine nearly all subjects have been talked about on here. What would be the limit to number of times a subject can be talked about and who would police this? I am not disagreeing with you but more asking how is this to work? I do on the other hand totally agree with you about people asking for advice and then having it thrown back in your face or disregarded. It is good to have different ideas thrown around especially if there is a logical reason and discussions to follow but I know what you mean when someone has a snake for a few weeks and argues the basic right advice they are given.


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## Ash1990 (Apr 16, 2013)

Topics that pop up all the time that annoy the heck out of me, so I imagine they would annoy the people who are on this site all the time:

-OMG, my baby snake just BIT me!!!!! argh, its never done that before, whats wrong with it?????!!!! Is it possessed!!!!???

- OMG, my snake hasn't eaten in 7 days!!!!!!!!! it usually eats every 5th day on the dot!!! WILL IT DIE!!!!???

- I just got a snake!!!! YAY, now tell me everything about it because I dont know!!!!!! Temps, cage size, diet etc!!!

A tiny bit of research might help stop all these qs, because I swear everytime I get on, there is another one. These were the first thing I looked up when I got interested in snakes. Even worse is when people ask a qs and you can google it and find 4 good sourced pages within 2 secs that have the info and then cross reference to check all agree and hey presto, you would expect that info to be correct and accurate. And it took 2 minutes and you didn't annoy the heck out of someone.


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## TheChondroCharm (Apr 16, 2013)

andynic07 said:


> What would be the limit to number of times a subject can be talked about and who would police this? I am not disagreeing with you but more asking how is this to work?



honestly it probably never will. it would take 100% concentration from mods and warnings being given to new users about posting already covered topics. which is stupid and unrealistic and would probably scare most newbies away before they get the chance to say hello.

people just need to learn to be tolerant of new comers and if you don't want to make a suggestion or give advice for the 50th time then don't. don't be snide, don't be a smart **** and don't be belligerent towards them. a blunt answer is fine because essentially that's what they want, an answer, but making it friendly is a nice touch. 

as for newbies taking offense or feeling bullied or what ever about replies, that's personal i suppose and you cant police peoples emotions. to some its water off a ducks back and others genuinely feel targeted or demeaned. no one can help that because everyone has a different personality. the reason IMO that they feel replies are mean only when first starting is that they come on here with the knowledge they have thinking they've done great and have a real sense of pride in themselves for all the new stuff they've learned and then get corrected or told they've done wrong research or get grilled from someone who's "mean" and it hits them hard. not to mention some being younger and not being able to judge the tone replies are intended to be taken. 

nothing will change, there's too many variables (sarcasm, personalities, age, knowledge) for this issue to be rectified as such. good to bring it up though


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## KaotikJezta (Apr 16, 2013)

Almost as frustrating as newbies with no research skills are the cocky, not always but usually male, 3 month -2 year keepers that give bad information but wont be told their wrong because they know everything. Anyone who has been keeping more than 10 years has antiquated husbandry techniques, and they have lots of reptiles and some have bred so they must know what they're doing. The problem with these dangerous individuals is they appeal to the newbies that want a certain answer, even if it is the wrong one. Apparently, all of us pre 93 keepers are useless and we kill all our animals, I was told by one of these cocky little know-it-alls. Seems to me one big difference between older keepers and these particular individuals is we admit we don't know everything where as they don't seem to be able to.


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## saintanger (Apr 16, 2013)

i agree i have seen newbies flamed for asking basic questions and sometimes not so basic questions. 

we all need to remember we all were newbies once. and just because a person has only been here a few months or a year does not mean they are a newbie, they may have over 20 years experince in the hobby but never joined as reptile sites didn't exist wen they first started and by the time it did they saw no need to join but then decide to join and get treated like they know nothing.

also alot of these newbies are kids, and kids ask very basic questions and are generally annoying. some kids are ok but there are a few that have posted over 50 basic questions that does drive me nuts, then don't take your advise, then start another post that their pet is sick.

but it gets me thinking, if ALL breeders handed out care sheets or offered advise with out waiting for the buyer to ask then 90% of these annoying newbies would not be here asking these questions. 

maybe wen a newbie joins they can get link to a page were there are care sheets for every species and asked to read about the species they keep or wanna keep (inboxed to them, as most don't search for answers), so it helps them and stops the oldies from getting there nickers in a knot.


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## andynic07 (Apr 16, 2013)

At least you are realistic Mitch, I think if most new people came on this site when they first have the idea of getting a snake and read some posts for a month they would see what responses they may get and learn a lot before they get the animal. What seems to happen though is people will get a snake then figure out that even though they have done one day of research on the net they do not know everything and run to the forum to get answers, even though at this point it is the best thing to do for the health of the reptile is annoys quite a few members. I also think that when people have a bad day this emotion is carried across to the forum and can effect either what response they give or how they receive responses, right or wrong this is forum life.


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## TheChondroCharm (Apr 16, 2013)

KaotikJezta said:


> Almost as frustrating as newbies with no research skills are the cocky, not always but usually male, 3 month -2 year keepers that give bad information but wont be told their wrong because they know everything. Anyone who has been keeping more than 10 years has antiquated husbandry techniques, and they have lots of reptiles and some have bred so they must know what they're doing. The problem with these dangerous individuals is they appeal to the newbies that want a certain answer, even if it is the wrong one. Apparently, all of us pre 93 keepers are useless and we kill all our animals, I was told by one of these cocky little know-it-alls. Seems to me one big difference between older keepers and these particular individuals is we admit we don't know everything where as they don't seem to be able to.



i agree with that. my age 22 and lower especially are good for this. most of them are arrogant and wont be corrected because wikipedia told them and all fail incredibly when faced with a heated argument that actually requires knowledge. i have debates with friends frequently that tell me things like "why don't you feed your snake in a feeding tub. its SCIENTIFICALLY proven that it makes them less agressive when in their living enclosure" i usually end up just letting them think they're right as they wont back down from their point despite not being interested in reptiles let alone owning any.



saintanger said:


> i agree i have seen newbies flamed for asking basic questions and sometimes not so basic questions.
> 
> we all need to remember we all were newbies once. and just because a person has only been here a few months or a year does not mean they are a newbie, they may have over 20 years experince in the hobby but never joined as reptile sites didn't exist wen they first started and by the time it did they saw no need to join but then decide to join and get treated like they know nothing.



obviously the experience level of an enthusiast is based on the number of posts you have. the more posts you have the more you know about everything.  

i recently read a thread from a user that has been here 10 years and had a very small post count. and i dare say that if you searched their posts you would find a lot to be extremely useful rather then a flood of chitchat. some members are more active in the social side of things here, which don't get me wrong I'm not saying they're posts are all garbage by any means, but a social poster can have thousands of posts whereas someone who lurks for a chance to have a really insightful meaningful post will have far less. so to a newbie, especially the younger ones (12-15) someone who has fewer posts can seem less knowledgeable. ive noticed this not so much on this forum but on other non-herp forums that post count seems to be heavily regarded as knowledge by newbies.


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## Bananapeel (Apr 16, 2013)

Ok here's my rant.

i am a newbie and chances are I was a bit stupid when I joined. Not so much dumb questions as I had done 4 yrs research and lurking the forum. I got my snake in January this year.

the things tha annoy me are the very very basic questions that really make you grind your teeth to try resist flaming. Poo question, feed questions, snappy snake threads, what to name my beardie threads etc etc. the repetition of these questions is outrageous. More than once I have seen 2 threads existing at the same time with identical dumb questions. 

I also hate newbies who are setting up an enclosure for their snake and ask questions then decide either not to follow advice and come back later saying my enclosure seems a bit cold. Or they make the thead asking about the enclosure and then decide to be cheap skates and buy cheap things that fail to help the snake despite multiple replies saying you really shouldn't use glass or don't use a heatrock or don't cage a light coz it costs a few bucks. Etc etc. 

i must admit there are a hell of a lot of extremely kind, honest, and VERY helpful members of whom I have gained a wealth of knowledge. Eg) jamie, blue, vixen, JAX, eipper, geckojosh blah blah blah there are way too many to name! But yes there are some seriously cruel and insulting people on here. I'll admit I have seen a few well regarded people flame others but many I see as understandable. What annoys me is when people are flamed by members who I have seen enough comments to work out they are keen on flaming others maybe to feel good or because they think they know everything. 

I have received the occasional flaming and some maybe rightly so nd sometimes I'll admit I have flamed people particularly one 12yr old who many know  what made me most annoyed was one particular occasion where I received multiple very unfair comments which were worse than any I have received yet and were quite hurtful tbh. When I asked why he was wasting his time making stupid comments while others were helpful he replied "I care about post count" what? That annoyed me. 

Rant over. There are 2 types of newbies IMO. Those who want to learn prior to getting a reptile and are keen for knowledge but make mistakes both online and while keeping. Then there's those who are lazy and rely on others to do the work for them and possibly want a 'cool pet'. And want to take the cheap easy way out to give their pet average living conditions. Blah blah blah. 

BP


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## prodigy97 (Apr 16, 2013)

i am a newbie just got 1st carpet python 3 months ago 
but i have read alot of book on keeping herpitiles ,the prob is a majority of em is from the yanks so all of my ? are about the law here in aus 
and i think if every 1 read more there would be no probs , and i think reading 3 books gives you 3 life times of hands on experience

whats a book? 
no but seriosly im a newb ,read alot of book so the only ? i ask is about the law in aus ,but i think reading 3 books give you 3 life times of hands on exp


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## Endeavour (Apr 16, 2013)

montysrainbow said:


> Im pretty much one myself as u all know. I have seen a few comments directed at newbies that makes me feel  people are simply trying to learn more and share their experience and love of reptiles. Also some newbies have loved reptiles all their life! however didn't get their 1st until now....doesn't make them any less worthy of being a member on here. Please don't be mean, everyone has to start somewhere :| make love not war.



I just love newbies.


Kindest regards

Endeavour


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## TheChondroCharm (Apr 16, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> what to name my beardie theads etc etc.
> 
> BP



This is the only bit I disagree with. Name threads and other general chat threads are different as its the social side of the forum as opposed to the research and information side. There has to be balance of both areas and that's what the chit chat section is for. Post what ever you want there, I couldn't give a rats, its the other areas like herp help that newbies flood with the same stuff that gets old quick.

Would you agree or you just hate naming beardies haha


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## Bananapeel (Apr 16, 2013)

prodigy97 said:


> whats a book?
> no but seriosly im a newb ,read alot of book so the only ? i ask is about the law in aus ,but i think reading 3 books give you 3 life times of hands on exp



You just said that. And I wouldn't call reading hands on experience. But extremely good information by very experienced keepers/breeders/herpetologists.



mitchR1 said:


> This is the only bit I disagree with. Name threads and other general chat threads are different as its the social side of the forum as opposed to the research and information side. There has to be balance of both areas and that's what the chit chat section is for. Post what ever you want there, I couldn't give a rats, its the other areas like herp help that newbies flood with the same stuff that gets old quick.
> 
> Would you agree or you just hate naming beardies haha




Haha yes very true. It's different but often they put it in aussie lizards or general reptile discussion. Maybe I just get annoyed at the repetition


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## saintanger (Apr 16, 2013)

mitchR1 said:


> obviously the experience level of an enthusiast is based on the number of posts you have. the more posts you have the more you know about everything.
> 
> i recently read a thread from a user that has been here 10 years and had a very small post count. and i dare say that if you searched their posts you would find a lot to be extremely useful rather then a flood of chitchat. some members are more active in the social side of things here, which don't get me wrong I'm not saying they're posts are all garbage by any means, but a social poster can have thousands of posts whereas someone who lurks for a chance to have a really insightful meaningful post will have far less. so to a newbie, especially the younger ones (12-15) someone who has fewer posts can seem less knowledgeable. ive noticed this not so much on this forum but on other non-herp forums that post count seems to be heavily regarded as knowledge by newbies.



some do think its based on how many posts they have. yeah i have seen some people on here who have been on here for years and barley post but wen they do its full of great info.


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## prodigy97 (Apr 16, 2013)

montysrainbow said:


> i used to (when i 1st joined) love hopping on here on a friday night with my bottle of sav blanc lol it was hillarious at times  not newbie related so much but it was funny.


drunk forum allmost as dangrouse as drunk texting


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## The_Geeza (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm always drunk.... That's y I get infractions.... Cause I wake up and go....ohhhh noooo I did it again lol

Dam I can't even comment on that with drink in hand


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## Pythoninfinite (Apr 17, 2013)

jacorin said:


> just a question jamie,how would you propose newbies to get a link with an experienced keeper?? yeh there might be a lot of experienced ppl out there,but most if not all,wont let you near their place let alone give you info and help..... the reptile world is a place of hush hush and secrecy,thats what ive observed anyway....my reptile gathering was started on a whim,bought in a carpark sale,cause "god forbid" i might see what they had,let alone get information out of them.



I take your point jacorin, but as others have said, local herp groups are a good source of contact for both social reasons and access to advice & expertise. Most regions have a group which is likely to meet fairly regularly, so it's worth the effort to get there if you can. Admittedly difficult if you're a 12yo and your parents can't be bothered driving you there though. I do have a big problem with the recent introduction of reptile sales in shops in NSW because it removes the breeder even further from the buyer, and many pet shops will be in it (quite reasonably) for the money, but as a result will propagate incorrect info just to boost sales (especially of useless extra junk). But I don't think dogs and cats should be sold in petshops either... they just provide a sales platform for disgusting puppy farms...

I've seen quite a few requests for info on APS which I've answered with my contact details if I think I can help out in some way, and I'm sure there are other experienced people out there who enjoy mentoring others where appropriate.

In an earlier life, I was a professional taxidermist at a state museum - and this work in many ways is similar to reptile keeping, you never know it all, and people are always coming up with new info and different (occasionally better) ways of doing things. I like passing info on, because I'm always learning myself, and if I'm open to helping people, then in many cases others are open to helping me. Even a sharp newby can sometimes offer me help or info that I hadn't thought of, so it goes both ways. Not always, but often I get back in spades much more than I've been able to give. But sharp newbies are always actively seeking out information from any source, and you can tell who they are just from reading their posts here. The question of the hissing carpet python is a prime example of someone who has acquired a live animal without any forethought whatsoever, the animal has done something quite normal for that creature, but the new, totally unprepared owner is now afraid of it and doesn't know what to do... Suddenly the animal is in control - not a good scenario for a long-term relationship with any creature.

All I'm saying is learn about your charges, all the potential scenarios, BEFORE you get the critter. Successful reptile keeping is more than just a rote-learned, formulaic activity, and it requires a lot more intuition than keeping dogs and cats. But there is so much info out there, both good and drastically bad (thanks internet!), actively do your research yourself, in advance of getting your animal, and if you have doubts or further questions, then ask them here, but do so with some semblance of understanding of what you are taking on. That way you won't look stupid, and you won't draw attention to yourself as the kind of newbie that people love to hate.

Jamie


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## jacorin (Apr 17, 2013)

hey jamie,i belong to SOFAR club,meetings may go for an hr,more often less,and basically as soon as the meetings finished,everyone splits,so you dont have much chance to talk to others as you'd like.Thats if i can get out to it lolol... ive had my snakes for for 4yrs now,started with a stimmie off wokka,won a woma in a ballot(never thought that would happen as i was only new to reptiles),now have a coastal,and only bought it because my missus's friend was being posted to Afganistan and needed to sell it,just bought 2 darwins and another stimmie.

Right now i'm waiting on Peter Birches book to be delivered,soon i hope. As someone said above,you can research your little freckle out,but if you ask a question to clarify something,you get the "flame on" happening.not always,but more often than not. it was one of the reasons i left here for a cpl of yrs,after watching some other noobs who asked questions and got flamed,i wasnt going to ask,turned me away from here. im still no more advanced in what i know now than then,was always busy with things. now its worse as i work 6 days a week



Brodie said:


> Chill out jacorin. Not once did i accuse you of being rude or aggressive.



hey brodie,its kool mate,it was just the way i read it i spose..... my appologies

shane


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## Brodie (Apr 17, 2013)

No worries at all, you seem like a good bloke.

Brodie


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 17, 2013)

jacorin said:


> Right now i'm waiting on Peter Birches book to be delivered,soon i hope. As someone said above,you can research your little freckle out,but if you ask a question to clarify something,you get the "flame on" happening




I think alot of that comes down to the wording of the Newbs post too. Some people just have the ability to come across as arrogant know it alls, from their first post. Others come across as just wanting a snake for the COOL factor. Others you can tell are genuine, and checking what they have read.

My biggest pet hate it is that there is no one way that will work for everyone, but certain people seem to think there is only their way or the highway and that gives me the poos. there are many different ways that work for many different people and we all need to keep that in mind. As long as your basic husbandry is right then most other things are to the individual.

I remember when I was new I posted asking about Ball pythons as I had seen lots of adds for them, I knew they were illegal, but forgot to mention that and boy did I get flamed. The same happened where there was a newsbot thread about a biker that had been raided and they had found illegal exotics and everyone got on the "bikers are all bad platform" and I disagreed, I was very promptly flamed. Now I think a little more carefully before I post (either a new thread or a comment,)

Some of the people that have flamed me in the past i now seek out their advice!


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## jacorin (Apr 17, 2013)

im look like a nice bloke??? :O :O :O well i spose that depends who you talk to lolol just ask FAY(mod) about me hahaha


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## Merkinball (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm certainly no reptile expert and i have made a few mistakes on my reptile keeping journey. None that have done serious harm to my animals but mistakes all the same, i have learned from them and I have found this forum to be extremely helpful in improving my knowledge. I don't have a problem with newbies asking questions, but i can understand the frustration some people sometime exhibit in their replies.
Even for a new reptile keeper, i don't think the why won't my (insert species) feed is an acceptable question, especially when they have had the animal 1 week. Reptiles especially snakes are opportunistic feeders and 1,2,3 weeks not feeding should not be an issue to anyone who has done some studying of their new pet, and spoken to whom they purchased it off (Unless of course you see obvious signs of distress or malnutrition). This should just be basic knowledge, you don't have to have owned snakes for 20 years to know that.
And the one thread that deserves every bit of witty, sarcastic and at times caustic rhetoric is the 'Can i own xx exotic in Australia'. Really if you can't read your licence to figure that out, herp keeping is not for you.


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## montysrainbow (Apr 17, 2013)

Sezzzzzzzzz said:


> I think alot of that comes down to the wording of the Newbs post too. Some people just have the ability to come across as arrogant know it alls, from their first post. Others come across as just wanting a snake for the COOL factor. Others you can tell are genuine, and checking what they have read.
> 
> My biggest pet hate it is that there is no one way that will work for everyone, but certain people seem to think there is only their way or the highway and that gives me the poos. there are many different ways that work for many different people and we all need to keep that in mind. As long as your basic husbandry is right then most other things are to the individual.
> 
> ...


 lol funny u say that sezzzzzzzzz I remember I got flamed for mentioning my boys lizard hunting for skinks lol I was unaware that was a big no no. I thought it was harmless fun! part of growing up .....but ive since learnt that its a not. They now just look


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## andynic07 (Apr 17, 2013)

montysrainbow said:


> lol funny u say that sezzzzzzzzz I remember I got flamed for mentioning my boys lizard hunting for skinks lol I was unaware that was a big no no. I thought it was harmless fun! part of growing up .....but ive since learnt that its a not. They now just look


I would imagine a lot of herpers on here caught lizards and snakes when they were kids before they knew it was wrong. I know for a fact that as a kid I caught and kept garden skinks , EWD's , turtles and even a couple of GTS. I would not keep them for long and looking back didn't keep them in the right conditions but back then there was no internet and I didn't know any better.


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## RedFox (Apr 17, 2013)

When I was little I used to "catch and release" skink all the time. Mum never let me keep them though. When I was really little and we lived in Vic, I used to share my banana with our resident blue tongue who lived near the clothes line. At primary school I caught a few brown tree snakes that the teachers took off me. 


It is good your little ones are interested in reptiles, I wish more kids were, but I think the look but don't touch is a good rule.


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## jack (Apr 17, 2013)

montysrainbow said:


> lol funny u say that sezzzzzzzzz I remember I got flamed for mentioning my boys lizard hunting for skinks lol I was unaware that was a big no no. I thought it was harmless fun! part of growing up .....but ive since learnt that its a not. They now just look



flamed for catching skinks? a big no no? righto, bring it on: i love the skink slap, i catch the silly little things all the time, it reassures me that i am not too old and slow... one of my proudest fatherly moments was when my boy first caught one on the back path.
I encourage you all to go and catch skinks...


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## montysrainbow (Apr 17, 2013)

jack said:


> flamed for catching skinks? a big no no? righto, bring it on: i love the skink slap, i catch the silly little things all the time, it reassures me that i am not too old and slow... one of my proudest fatherly moments was when my boy first caught one on the back path.
> I encourage you all to go and catch skinks...


 I must confess though I was kinda planning on letting them live in a tank in their bedroom lol that's prob where the flames came from :lol: eastern water skinks....we let them have a visit and then let em go 8)


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 17, 2013)

jack said:


> flamed for catching skinks? a big no no? righto, bring it on: i love the skink slap, i catch the silly little things all the time, it reassures me that i am not too old and slow... one of my proudest fatherly moments was when my boy first caught one on the back path.
> I encourage you all to go and catch skinks...



I must confess, i too am guilty of catching skinks with my daughter. we always put them back in the garden after looking at them though


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## saintanger (Apr 17, 2013)

wen my daughter is older if she wants to catch some skinks i won't stop her, but i will teach her how to catch them with out making their tail fall of and i will then make her realese them. if she wants one as a pet i will get one on licence for her.

how do they think all our field herps, scientists, _herpetolagist_ ect gained all their kowledge about species ect by doing hands on work. who knows it might spark our kids interest to be healthy and spend more time out doors or might interest them in wanting to be a herpetolagist ect.


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## jack (Apr 17, 2013)

_you spelt herpetolagist wrong you nube _


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## andynic07 (Apr 17, 2013)

jack said:


> _you spelt herpetolagist wrong you nube _


Maybe it was someone who studied herpis , herpiologist.


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## saintanger (Apr 17, 2013)

jack said:


> _you spelt herpetolagist wrong you nube _




thanks, my spelling aint the best and i do not have spell check on here tried to get it to work but it never does.


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## apprenticegnome (Apr 21, 2013)

I started a thread about the necessity of using scientific names in the majority of posts and that started a bit of the newbie attack on myself. I also mentioned the word herpetologist from memory later in the thread and some so called experts came out with different definitions based purely on personal perception. I couldn't believe that a thread could all of a sudden bring a few elitists to the surface. In a community were combined knowledge helps the hobby grow and aids newbies in joining in some people obviously feel threatened to the point they have to draw a line in the sand between us and them.


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## apprenticegnome (Apr 21, 2013)

I did get a majority of good opinions although some differed from mine they were put forward in a friendly manner.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 22, 2013)

I have deliberately held off posting to see what others had to say. This is an area of personal interest to me and I have given it a good deal of thought, for whatever that is worth.

The first point I would make is that I believe there is a widespread belief amongst the general public that frogs and reptiles require little and look after themselves. They are seen in the garden, the golf course, the weed infested vacant block, the sheep paddock, the local drain that was once a creek etc. That they can survive and thrive in such highly disturbed areas, a long way removed from habitat, is interpreted as being super tough and needing next to nothing to get by.

I have a question for you all. At the point of sale, who should be responsible for ensuring that the buyer has the necessary knowledge to meet the needs of the animal(s)? The buyer or the seller?....

Who definitely knows what needs to be known? Who is quite likely under the misapprehension that that very little needs to be known and there is no more to it than keeping other pets like a goldfish or a budgie? How many sellers do you know would direct a customer away to do some set homework before returning again to purchase the animal? A responsible breeder may do. Anyone prepared to do this is also likely to act as a mentor. It is a fortunate buyer that has this experience and one that is highly unlikely to end up on APS asking “newbie questions”. 

Yet somehow, we manage to turn it around when we do get such questions and level the blame fairly and squarely at the newbie for not having done their research on things that they had no idea required being researched. And to add insult to injury we tell them to use the search facility on APS or the internet. Sound advice? Try searching heating on APS. The last time I did it I came up with in excess of 200 threads, ranging from 4 or 5 posts to several hundred. A recent thread I recall had highly experienced keepers arguing the pro and cons of heat cord versus radiant heaters versus spot light heating. For some just starting, all that does is muddy the water. And I think we are all aware that some of the advice given by some individuals is quite simply poor and even inappropriate at times. The same issue to an even greater degree exist with the internet. Yet we expect someone with a background of ignorance to suddenly be discerning wading through the plethora of information that will confront them. I ask the question again... Sound advice?

What do believe people that have bought an animal and know nothing about meeting its needs require most? Flaming? Being made to feel negative about having bought a reptile or amphibian? To be fobbed off onto the internet or APS search engine? Or to be directed to quality information about keeping?

Blue


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 22, 2013)

It is inevitable that you will get a percentage of ‘time wasters’ on any forum. Moderators get on their case and if they do not lift their game they are sent packing. Such individuals only rarely come with an extensive knowledge of keeping and so they come under the umbrella of ‘newbies’. I personally believe that you need to separate out such individuals and recognise that they would ask ridiculous questions or ignore good advice given even if they had extensive keeping experience. They are here for reasons other than to learn!

The giving of poor advice or confusing advice can be circumvented by directing individuals to already written advice that is of a high quality. For example, for someone starting out with a python, I tend to direct them to the ‘Doc Rock’ articles on the *Southern Cross Reptiles* website. I also tend to recommend that any beginning keeper buy a copy of John Weigel’s *Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity*. For around $20 it highly affordable and provides an excellent overview of our hobby. To my mind, it provides the sort of introduction keepers need before they launch into the specifics of a given species. They can then move onto a more expensive text, usually one produced within the last 5years, from there. The “Keeping” range of booklets, authored by Darren Green and others, are also excellent species specific beginner texts and great value at under $20. I know of one breeder south of Busselton who includes a copy of the relevant booklet as part of the sale of any animal, as well as providing on-going support – an excellent way to go. For those getting into turtles, you can’t go past the *Australian Freshwater Turtles* *Forum* – Beginner’s Guide & Australian Freshwater Turtles Care Guide for excellence plus the forum itself.

The more I learn the more I realise I do not know – attributed to Socrates. I have stated before that no-one knows it all and I for one am still very much learning. And I do try to not let ego get in the way of admitting my mistakes.

What are post counts indicative off? The number of times you have posted... and that’s it! One has only to glance through available forum categories to realise that there is plenty of scope for non-keeping related conversations. I almost feel like ther should be a statement to that effect that has to be read before you sign up.

There are other issues but these are my thoughts on those that I recall being raised. 

Blue


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## eipper (Apr 22, 2013)

Merkinball said:


> I'm certainly no reptile expert and i have made a few mistakes on my reptile keeping journey. None that have done serious harm to my animals but mistakes all the same, i have learned from them and I have found this forum to be extremely helpful in improving my knowledge. I don't have a problem with newbies asking questions, but i can understand the frustration some people sometime exhibit in their replies.
> Even for a new reptile keeper, i don't think the why won't my (insert species) feed is an acceptable question, especially when they have had the animal 1 week. Reptiles especially snakes are opportunistic feeders and 1,2,3 weeks not feeding should not be an issue to anyone who has done some studying of their new pet, and spoken to whom they purchased it off (Unless of course you see obvious signs of distress or malnutrition). This should just be basic knowledge, you don't have to have owned snakes for 20 years to know that.
> And the one thread that deserves every bit of witty, sarcastic and at times caustic rhetoric is the 'Can i own xx exotic in Australia'. Really if you can't read your licence to figure that out, herp keeping is not for you.


 

Some snakes do refuse food and require assist or force feeding


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## mcbuggsy (Apr 22, 2013)

Following on from Bluetongues well thought out, clear response to this issue, I think the fault can lie with both the seller and the purchaser. Some sellers offer nothing and refer purchasers of animals to the internet. I offer a 6 page explanation on how to care for and rear captive hatchling turtles and other animals I breed, (gleaned from many years of keeping,and researching and brain picking) with every sale. However I have found that in maybe 50% of times when someone has contacted me with a problem, that they have ignored that written advice and taken advice from the Pet Shop where they bought some food, their mate who kept a turtle 20 years ago, or from a friend who had a friend who'se uncles brothers sister had a baby animal in the past. Some people will take advice and some won't. It's the way of the world. What annoys me is than in some of these instances, when the animal dies, it is a great waste of a young life that I have taken much time and effort to produce (same as any other breeder) and I get really annoyed when people blame me for providing a sick animal. Then want a refund or a replacement. Where they have clearly not followed any advice given, I refuse and either say there are no more available, or charge full price. I refuse to flame people on here, but can understand some peoples frustration. It's the way of the world now. I lived through a time where there was no internet and info in books was all we had. At least the info in books was mostly correct.
These days, the fact that anyone can post information on the internet (whether right or wrong) makes it harder for a newbie to get a straight answer.
Patience is the key I think...and maybe some commonsense.
Then again my Dad used to say that "commonsense" was a strange word for it..as it really isn't very common....
Oops, think I strayed off topic there a bit..better put the flame suit on...


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## montysrainbow (Apr 22, 2013)

well the number of posts made doesnt mean a thing lol heck knows im slowly clocking them up but most are questions ive asked or a heap of me polly waffling in the chit chat section about everything but reptiles :lol: im here for the advice....i read alot on here AND im here for the social side of it lol a few members on here give me a good giggle every now n then....its all good.


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## Bluetongue1 (Apr 22, 2013)

*mcbuggsy*,
One would hope that the individuals you describe as ignoring your advice for that of others less qualified, constitute a very small percentage. The reality of life is that there are some people who, for a number of different reasons, are incompetent or incapable of looking after certain living things. If only we could identify them first up. Fortunately the capacity to keep is not prohibited because of an unrepresentative minority who cannot or will not do the right thing.

There is a little more rationale behind my choice of referrals for people than I articulated in my previous post. Each is Australian, each has successfully reared and bred thousands of the relevant animals and each has a well recognised reputation for excellence in their field. I am usually at pains to point that out. For example the Lattas, responsible for the Turtle Care Guide, have bred upwards of a thousand turtles a year for their various projects – an awesome achievement by any bench mark. 

What I don’t want to do is understate the value of the range of Australian produced keeping texts that have been released over recent years. For a beginner who has had a successful crack at keeping and wants to expand their involvement, this is absolutely the way to go. Such superlative texts can only be described as a true boon to our hobby and an absolute credit to the authors.

Blue


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## Tsubakai (Apr 22, 2013)

I haven't read the rest of the thread but I do have an opinion on this. My approach is to help out as much as I can IF the newbie asks for help in a respectful manner. Sometimes, like the currently running thread about an albino not eating, I will not bother even trying to offer advice when I think the newbie won't listen or gets fired up by something you tell them. I have far too many other things happening to even bother wasting time with the second type but I will give people all my assistance if they truly wish to learn. 

Many people don't like to hear the truth - greater than 90% of problems encountered by newbies (with previously well reptiles) are the direct result of the owner not providing an adequate home that meets all the requirements of their pet. In a nutshell, its the new owners fault. Now I don't mean they are deliberately providing an inadequate environment but through ignorance of their new pets needs, they are the cause of the problem.

The only way this can be solved? Learning new information then taking that information and putting it into practice then, thirdly, assessing whether the change in practice has had the desired effect. If not, back to step one and start again. 

I am more than willing to help but if I get a metaphorical 'slap in the face' then I'll be out of that thread and will not offer assistance to that person again.


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## Normanbhp (Apr 22, 2013)

Hi, i think you all have good points , but when new keepers get snakes of me, i ask alot of questions so i know where there at, then i know what questions thay will ask,when i started i had to read lots of books and look for people that where willing to give me lots of knowledge, i some times asked 2 people the same questions to see if i got the same ancer, even now i have been in it for 20 years i know a lot about reptiles, now i still have to ask some questions to people who have been in it for 30 or 40 years and thay are always willing to ancer my questions know mater what my question is and some times thay have to go and ask some one becouse thay dont know the anser ether and thay will always get back to me, as long as we are asking questions all are reptiles will live longer and happer lives isent that what we want??????.


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## Flangii (Apr 23, 2013)

Me and my bf are newbies and have a 4 month old jungle python. According to a lot of sources, our hatchie was suppose to be feisty and snap a lot but we have been blessed with a beautiful hatchie. Never bites, has never missed a feeding and has already had a full healthy shed and about to shed again. He is so calm and we get him out all the time. So lucky =]


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## montysrainbow (Apr 23, 2013)

Flangii said:


> Me and my bf are newbies and have a 4 month old jungle python. According to a lot of sources, our hatchie was suppose to be feisty and snap a lot but we have been blessed with a beautiful hatchie. Never bites, has never missed a feeding and has already had a full healthy shed and about to shed again. He is so calm and we get him out all the time. So lucky =]


wanna swap? lol I have a feisty coastal he is v pretty :lol: im so joking....wouldn't swap him. Yay 4 u though! enjoy ur new jungle.


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## cid_python (Apr 23, 2013)

I agree 100%, I have been grilled so many times by all these old know-it-alls!


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## crazzzylizard (Apr 23, 2013)

Noemanbhp it's spelt answer


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## bk201 (Apr 23, 2013)

.....


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## Sezzzzzzzzz (Apr 23, 2013)

crazzzylizard said:


> Noemanbhp it's spelt answer



bahahaha and his name is normanbhp!


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## champagne (Apr 23, 2013)

cid_python said:


> I agree 100%, I have been grilled so many times by all these old know-it-alls!



the problem isn't the old know-it-alls, its the newbie know-it-alls.... just because you can Google an answer doesn't mean you know everything, you have to actually understand what you are reading/posting. A lot of the oldies can't think outside the box tho or question the way they do things.


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## champagne (Apr 23, 2013)

crazzzylizard said:


> Noemanbhp it's spelt answer



be nice its school holidays....


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## Flangii (Apr 24, 2013)

When I did my research before I got my snake, every single old know-it-all gave me different information anyway. Nobody agreed with each other. So I just did what I thought was right and took the information that sounded the best and now I have an amazing 4 month old jungle hatchy that has never bitten me, has never missed a feed, has had a full healthy shed and climbs all over me without hesitation I think I'm doing great and I didn't know what to do at first.


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## cid_python (Apr 24, 2013)

OK both Newbie and Old Know-it-all's are both hella annoying.


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## Snowballlz (Apr 24, 2013)

I just wanto say a thumbs up for every ""noob" that has asked questions about sheeding and pooping, all the great answers from all members have helped me a lot recently.
I was getting worried that my jungle hadn't pooped in the two weeks of me having him only to find out that he could have gone a month no problems and he was probably coming into shed. Today I noticed his eyes are blue so fingers crossed in a week I'll have a shed and poop package.
He is my first snake so I will be a worry wart for a while to come I think.


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## champagne (Apr 25, 2013)

Flangii said:


> When I did my research before I got my snake, every single old know-it-all gave me different information anyway. Nobody agreed with each other. So I just did what I thought was right and took the information that sounded the best and now I have an amazing 4 month old jungle hatchy that has never bitten me, has never missed a feed, has had a full healthy shed and climbs all over me without hesitation I think I'm doing great and I didn't know what to do at first.


that's because different things work for different people just because one thing works for one person doesn't mean it will work for the next person. that's why I say ''do your own research''....


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## reptalica (Apr 27, 2013)

montysrainbow said:


> Im pretty much one myself as u all know. I have seen a few comments directed at newbies that makes me feel  people are simply trying to learn more and share their experience and love of reptiles. Also some newbies have loved reptiles all their life! however didn't get their 1st until now....doesn't make them any less worthy of being a member on here. Please don't be mean, everyone has to start somewhere :| make love not war.



Trying to make love generally ends up in war. 8)


Back on topic....I think a lot of the newbies, including myself when I first started in here are a victim of asking a question or starting a thread that has been started umpteenth times already.

The forum rules clearly indicate to use the search function and wiki tab to find the information u r looking for prior to posting a thread.

Ironically I have been guilty of starting a thread that may have already been answered previously, in fact I'm damn sure it had been. 

I learnt from it.

And some as well aren't internet / forum savvy. There is a certain style / etiquette required on bulletin boards/forums and the like.


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## Flangii (Dec 1, 2013)

He's almost 1 now and still hasn't bitten anyone. All our friends hold him and he's never missed a feed or shed.
I'm so happy I decided to have him. Best thing ever


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## Muzman (Dec 1, 2013)

Here's some advice from a noob.....Please read a post completely before hastily dishing out blunt comments. This happend to me when i first joined the forum and it made me stay away for a substantial time as it made me feel like i couldnt trust the info that was being dished out because it looked like some "experts" where so keen to hand out info that they couldnt even bring themselves to finish reading the post and gave stupid answers. Not a good look eh. ;-)


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## Freeloader (Dec 1, 2013)

Muzman there are some good people on this forum with a hell of a lot of knowledge. Then there are some that you wouldn't give the time of day to. It's finding the good people who are willing to share that knowledge with you to aid your learning. Good luck in your search mate.


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## Muzman (Dec 1, 2013)

Freeloader said:


> Muzman there are some good people on this forum with a hell of a lot of knowledge. Then there are some that you wouldn't give the time of day to. It's finding the good people who are willing to share that knowledge with you to aid your learning. Good luck in your search mate.



Yeah i recently started using the forum cuz i figured that i shouldnt taint everyone with the same brush. I imagine that all the most knowledgeable people in the country probably use this forum


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## eipper (Dec 1, 2013)

Muzman said:


> . I imagine that all the most knowledgeable people in the country probably use this forum


 
While there are some knowledgeable people on here there are many that are not.... So many have left or been pushed over crap


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

There are also a lot of noobs with limited knowledge who give advise, which from my experience watching the forum, is often wrong. The hardest part for noobs isn't being told bluntly by keepers how to do things. But rather working out which advise to follow.

I think the Admin should have a gold standard for some members where their names appear in yellow. This would mean advise given from someone with a yellow name is to be trusted.
Some of the gold names would be:
Pythoninfonite
Eipper
Gecko dan
Fay
etc etc...
Or perhaps people who have been on here for over 5 years. (though time on here isn't always a good indicator.)


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 2, 2013)

^!

The newbies who have problems are very often those with "attitude." Just the other day, someone posted some silly questions about incubating unexpected eggs (or maybe they were expected but the new "breeder" hadn't the faintest clue how to deal with them). The eggs were laid in the enclosure under the heat lamp. When it was suggested that the member should seek info on python incubation, and he/she was actually given good advice about the factors that might improve success, the response was "I've got a book and I know what is needed, but I'll ask this stupid question again, even though EVERY bit of info suggests I shouldn't leave the eggs under the heat lamp... and I know about humidity..." 

I admit quite freely that I'm blunt with stupid people (and there IS such a thing as a stupid question!), but you can usually tell from the tone of the members post whether or not they've done even the most basic research about what they're asking. If not, and the question is glaringly idiotic, then I'm afraid I have little patience and wish they'd never even got a reptile pet. On the other hand, you can tell the ones who absorb information and have the brains and intuitive skills to sort the good info from the bad, and who will go on to be successful keepers/breeders of healthy and happy (shouldn't use that word, it's very subjective!) reptiles.

It's been one of my firm opinions for a long time that keeping licences are too easy to obtain in most states. Perhaps that's about the only thing I might say in defence of the system in WA - it is expensive and very tightly managed, but it probably makes intending keepers think carefully about their responsibilties before they acquire a reptile.

Jamie


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## littlemay (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> The hardest part for noobs isn't being told bluntly by keepers how to do things. But rather working out which advise to follow.



This, absolutely. IMO silly questions do not always derive from a failure to do research, but rather an oversaturation of conflicting information and confusion about what is right and what is wrong.


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## Ramsayi (Dec 2, 2013)

Snowman said:


> There are also a lot of noobs with limited knowledge who give advise, which from my experience watching the forum, is often wrong.



This is by far the reason a lot of bad advice is thrown around.A new keeper signs up and asks very basic questions and within a day or two starts offering advice to others without even the faintest clue if that info is correct or not.I know that they are only trying to help but at the end of the day anyone can google info.


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## Pythoninfinite (Dec 2, 2013)

Ramsayi said:


> This is by far the reason a lot of bad advice is thrown around.A new keeper signs up and asks very basic questions and within a day or two starts offering advice to others without even the faintest clue if that info is correct or not.I know that they are only trying to help but at the end of the day anyone can google info.



This is so true. In fact, quite apart from my own involvement (and my occasional rudeness might preclude me anyway ), Snowy's idea of a graded membership system might have some merit - if newcomers were able to distinguish easily who had the experience to offer good advice, then it might make confidence in following a particular path a lot easier for newbies. I always advocate settling on advice from one or two sources for any particular plan of attack, because although there are often several ways to do something well, often the methods don't mix.

Jamie


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## eipper (Dec 2, 2013)

I am "fairly" blunt.... If you ask others it might be a slightly different description of my manner. It comes from stupid questions, lack of research and how some people have to accept that they might have to re assess whether or not they should keep animals. By all means ask, but don't expect me to give a toss if it goes pear shaped and you have not followed advice. 

Many people are busy, we all have other commitments be it collections, work, household, lesuire etc. I am sure you can understand that I would rather spend time with my wife and kids than arguing with some random person that has no idea as to what they are on about. 

By all means I advocate people fact check and use multiple sources.... You might need to vett your source better though sometimes.

Cheers
scott


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## champagne (Dec 2, 2013)

I think the biggest problem is these newbies ask inexperienced question which is fine but then next week are experts giving out advice


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## RedFox (Dec 2, 2013)

I forgot about this thread...With this hobby there are some really awesome books available for not all that much money. There are also some really good herp societies with member who are happy to assist beginners. 

As a complete newbie myself I don't understand why so many basic questions are posted on here. I never felt the need to ask about feeding, shedding, etc, as that was all answered by the first fact sheet I came across, when I was 12. I always thought if a 12 year old me could find the info others would be able to but after lurking on here and then finally joining that obviously isn't the case. It seems to be even worst on facebook. 

It makes me sad to think of all the knowledgable people that were once quite active on internet forums who now are not. 

The gold star idea sounds good. It took me a little while as a lurker reading old posts to find which members were the knowledgable ones.


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## Freeloader (Dec 2, 2013)

I joined this forum in 2006 and would never ever claim to have the knowledge that some people who have been on here less time have. Time is not a good indication.


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## Snowman (Dec 2, 2013)

Freeloader said:


> I joined this forum in 2006 and would never ever claim to have the knowledge that some people who have been on here less time have. Time is not a good indication.


Time is not "always" a good indication. But it may cut some on the new one minute experts out. For the most part we know who the gold star people are out there so it wouldn't be hard to give them authority badges.


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## Scaleyfoot (Dec 8, 2013)

Everyone's an expert...  Truth is, there's always a bigger fish


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## Ninabuddha (Jan 5, 2014)

Ramsayi said:


> These days there is a massive amount of info available on the interwebs.More and more it seems that a lot of new keepers want to be spoon fed even the most basic stuff.



info just typed up isnt as handy as having experienced people give their advice yes some people need to be spoon fed as everyone learns differently.


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## Bluetongue1 (Jan 5, 2014)

*Ninabuddha,
*There is an inherit ‘danger’ in admitting wanting to be ‘spoon fed’. If you check out the dictionary definitions you will discover something to the effect of: “To give someone information in a way that requires or allows no further thinking or effort.” Members want to encourage you to self-sufficient and proactive, rather than dependant and indulged. This outlook can be motivated by what is considered best for your animals, or by a perceived indolence on your behalf.

Reading between the lines, I infer that you are seeking personal confirmation from experienced practitioners on specific keeping points. I would advise that you seek to be pointed in the right direction to quality care information about your specific animal(s) and then take in the information provided. If this or other circumstances generate questions, you can present your specific, rather than general, queries to the forum. You will definitely find you get a much more positive response from experienced forum members when it is clearly apparent you have done your share of the legwork first.

Blue


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## cement (Jan 5, 2014)

When i was a kid and starting out with work etc, it was pretty tough finding someone who would give you a job. I worked for free for two weeks on a prawn boat just to get experience and land a job. When I decided to take up carpentry I rang EVERY builder in my local yellow pages and door knocked on every site I passed. 
When I was fortunate enough to get a start, I didn't want to blow it so I pulled my head in, LISTENED and worked hard. At smoko and during breaks I would ask about what was the next stage etc.
There are some good kids today who are willing to put in effort and try their hands. BUT every newbie should understand this...... people with experience, get it from their own hard work, effort and aligning themselves with more experienced people.

To ask for advice or suggestions is fine, and you will find you will be given the right direction, but as soon as the attitude kicks in, your on your own. 
Many experienced people don't give straight out correct, easy to understand answers, but prefer to give wisdom in a slightly more guarded fashion, in a way of finding out wether the person they are helping is actually worthy of the right info. Like Jamie said, it is the intuitive. humble, hard working ones who get the help.....not the know it all smart aleks who hear this and hear that. 
The teacher chooses the pupil. The pupil does not choose the teacher.


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## tahnia666 (Jan 5, 2014)

I've recently, after a long hiatus, come back into reptile keeping. I used to keep a children's python, a carpet python,a coupla blueys, a stumpy, a crevice skink, some water dragons , some water skinks and various other species of skink. The first I got was my children's python and by far away the most loved, back then, I didn't have access to these forums and finding someone who could treat a sick reptile, as a result when my python started refusing food, despite hundreds of dollars I spent, eventually ended up dying. I was so devastated I gave the rest of my collection away, and have only just got another coastal.
So I don't really consider myself new to reptile keeping but I'm most assuredly a nervous freak when it comes to feeding and husbandry.
Fortunately, the breeder I got my snake from is an absolute gem and puts up with my repeated questions, usually about the same thing, and is always willing to help. 

Anyway my point is that places like APS are excellent places to brush up on knowledge that you should probably already have a basic understanding of. 

These forums are a great place to find varying opinions from keepers who have various levels of skill and knowledge. They should be taken as such, I've personally found it invaluable, when I'm unsure and just want to see how other people do it. 

So my 2 cents..... 
Get a good book and read it, or if you don't like books or don't/can't read, get your reptile from someone who knows their stuff, who you like and who's happy to help with after purchase care. 
Once you have the basics its pretty easy to sort the poo from the chaff 
And you'll be better equipped to sort out conflicting advice as it pertains to you and your reptile.
By the way, I love it here! 

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


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## markannab (Jan 5, 2014)

I do get the point that people should do research before buying a reptile. But we're talking about those who didn't - and now they have a reptile but no knowledge. Rather than continue without knowledge, they hop on APS and ask simple questions to start building their knowledge. Isn't late better than never? Kind, helpful replies will encourage them to come back and seek more information so their reptile is cared for properly. Rude or, at least, blunt responses won't encourage their return because they've just been treated like an idiot. Where do they get their knowledge now? And how will the reptile suffer?

People make mistakes by not getting knowledge first. Who on APS will raise their hand first to say they've never gone head-long into a hobby, job or project without first doing research? We've all done it. But because we did do our research on the subject of reptiles, we stand on our soapbox?


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## Snake_Whisperer (Jan 5, 2014)

Snowman said:


> There are also a lot of noobs with limited knowledge who give advise, which from my experience watching the forum, is often wrong. The hardest part for noobs isn't being told bluntly by keepers how to do things. But rather working out which advise to follow.
> 
> I think the Admin should have a gold standard for some members where their names appear in yellow. This would mean advise given from someone with a yellow name is to be trusted.
> Some of the gold names would be:
> ...



What the hell is this?!?! A great bloody idea, that's what! There are quite a few knowledgeable herpers on here who would make excellent candidates for this "Goldmember" group! I have no interest in offering a "how" you'd pull this off but it is one of the better ideas I've seen for this forum in a long time. All the members suggested are a great start, just not Jamie... he's too old...  If you could convince Solar17/Baden and trueblue/Rob to sign up, they are both founts of knowledge as well.


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## tahnia666 (Jan 5, 2014)

markannab said:


> I do get the point that people should do research before buying a reptile. But we're talking about those who didn't - and now they have a reptile but no knowledge. Rather than continue without knowledge, they hop on APS and ask simple questions to start building their knowledge. Isn't late better than never? Kind, helpful replies will encourage them to come back and seek more information so their reptile is cared for properly. Rude or, at least, blunt responses won't encourage their return because they've just been treated like an idiot. Where do they get their knowledge now? And how will the reptile suffer?
> 
> People make mistakes by not getting knowledge first. Who on APS will raise their hand first to say they've never gone head-long into a hobby, job or project without first doing research? We've all done it. But because we did do our research on the subject of reptiles, we stand on our soapbox?



Exactly

Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


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## Rlpreston (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't think the problem is asking for help with a question or two, or asking for opinions when an answer could be a matter of preference.

There is a problem, however, with posting a topic asking about where to house your new snake, what temp it needs, what to feed it, when to feed it, how big will it get, does it need water etc. when those can all be answered by googling the species name and opening up a care sheet.
Most of the care sheets are written by incredibly experienced keepers, why should such people repeat themselves so often when it is basic and easy to find?

Most of the times I've noticed the 'experienced' being short with the 'newbies' have been times when someone has pointed them in the direction of the answers only to be met with someone wanting to be babied or someone who thinks they know better. It goes both ways!


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## molasseslass (Jan 8, 2014)

Rlpreston said:


> Most of the care sheets are written by incredibly experienced keepers, why should such people repeat themselves so often when it is basic and easy to find?



I completely understand the frustration when seeing every basic care question asked by the one newbie but I just wanted to point out that, as a newbie, I don't know who's an "incredibly experienced keeper" who's care sheet I should follow and who's a "dimwit with a website" who's care sheet isn't really accurate.

I read lots of sites and books before getting our reptiles and thought I had the basics covered. But then I attended info sessions given by experienced keepers at my local reptile outlet and discovered a lot was nonsense and they lacked some important things (like quarantine).


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Noobs should be limited to 5 posts a day max for their first two years  

(just joking don't get too carried away world protectors and keyboard warriors!)


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm a newbie and I've been on here for around six months, I don't own any reptiles and I consider this forum a big part of my research. I've read lots of care sheets and they are fairly basic compared to the amount of information available on here especially information about some of the problems one may face when caring for a reptile. I can understand why the more experienced people on here get irritated with people buying animals first and then coming here to ask basic questions but on the other hand thats where I get most of my info from(waiting for the experienced to offer advice to the newbies). 

One thing that does annoy me tho is when someone that I consider to be a wealth of information offers advice to a newbie and the newbie completely ignores the advice given yet still claims they have the same problem. Eg- someones snake wont eat and they get given advice to wait a week then the next day they come on and say they tried again and it still didnt eat. Thats why I think the more experienced people get frustrated and sometimes get blunt. I just hope they all don't get sick of it and leave as some have in the past.

Anyway as a newbie that is here to soak up much info as possible before making my purchase I just wanna say thanks to all members that have offered their knowledge and experience in past, present and future threads. I really appreciate all the time it takes to gain this knowledge and put it into words for us newbies to understand.


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## andynic07 (Jan 8, 2014)

Snowman said:


> Noobs should be limited to 5 posts a day max for their first two years
> 
> (just joking don't get too carried away world protectors and keyboard warriors!)


I am glad that you are joking, I think it should be 2 thoughtful posts and one stupid post per day.


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Or they should just remove the post counter, who cares how many posts people make it doesn't mean anything considering there is people that have plenty of experience and have never even used this forum. I've got over a hundred posts and I don't even own any reptiles.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Or they should just remove the post counter, who cares how many posts people make it doesn't mean anything considering there is people that have plenty of experience and have never even used this forum. I've got over a hundred posts and I don't even own any reptiles.


I doubt people post to get their post counts up... What would be the point?

- - - Updated - - -

Though my rule of thumb is your total "likes" received should be at least half the number of the posts you have made or more! So if you have 10 posts total you should have at least 5 likes... Less than half you are probably not contributing much, have no sense of humour or just posting rubbish. 
That and never trust someone who's noggin appears in their own avatar. (though there are acceptations to this rule, like Andy)


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

I just post because I'm bored and wanna throw my two cents in usually but I did get told off by the mods for trying to rack up my post count, I told em straight up they can reset my count to zero but they didn't do it. It just means I'm bored alot lol. 

I just checked my likes is 107 and I don't have a pic of myself in my avatar so I guess that makes me trustworthy lol


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> I just post because I'm bored and wanna throw my two cents in usually but I did get told off by the mods for trying to rack up my post count, I told em straight up they can reset my count to zero but they didn't do it. It just means I'm bored alot lol.
> 
> I just checked my likes is 107 and I don't have a pic of myself in my avatar so I guess that makes me trustworthy lol


Problem is you ruin it for everyone else if you are just posting rubbish because you are bored.
No it doesn't make you trust worthy. It simply says you aren't advertising the fact


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Yeah I've noticed that but the chat room is always empty and lots of my annoying posts get deleted anyway so I guess its just keeping the mods on their toes and no harm done.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Yeah I've noticed that but the chat room is always empty and lots of my annoying posts get deleted anyway so I guess its just keeping the mods on their toes and no harm done.



Sounds a bit selfish to me...


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Yea I'm not claiming I'm not selfish, technically our conversation is off topic as this thread is about being harsh on newbies but I doubt you would consider this selfish of us to be posting our opinions.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Yea I'm not claiming I'm not selfish, technically our conversation is off topic as this thread is about being harsh on newbies but I doubt you would consider this selfish of us to be posting our opinions.



It's on topic, plus it's chit chat. Noobs being selfish is a good example of why people can be harsh on noobs  To be honest we've seen a lot of "bored" posters like you come and go. Eventually the mods get sick of deleting posts and the user just disappears.


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## borntobnude (Jan 8, 2014)

And yet this^^ is possibly the reason some newbs cop what they do !! . 

I am trying to remember what I did as a newb and I think I introduced myself answered a few questions of my username then sat on the sideline reading for a month or two so as when I started asking questions I already had a bit of a clue where those answers were taking me .

- - - Updated - - -

And I just looked at my likes and have MORE than 1/2 of my posts :shock:


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Thats fair enough but I don't think anyone has ever been harsh with me on here


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

borntobnude said:


> And I just looked at my likes and have MORE than 1/2 of my posts :shock:



More! That means you either contribute to the good of the forum, have a sense of humour, don't post rubbish or all the above


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Mine is more than half too lol aww thanks snowy


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## andynic07 (Jan 8, 2014)

Snowman said:


> I doubt people post to get their post counts up... What would be the point?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


I am really not sure what you are talking about? I am not a snake but am definitely not trustworthy.
I am also willing to pay for likes!!


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Mine is more than half too lol aww thanks snowy


No you have less likes than half your posts


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Can you pay me via paypal and take care of the fees while you're at it andy lol

Seriously though I don't think there is any way to tell who is more experienced or trustworthy here other than observing and coming to your own conclusion by the info people give in their posts and the way they react when told their info is incorrect. I post garbage sometimes and I still pass your checklist snowman.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Can you pay me via paypal and take care of the fees while you're at it andy lol
> 
> Seriously though I don't think there is any way to tell who is more experienced or trustworthy here other than observing and coming to your own conclusion by the info people give in their posts and the way they react when told their info is incorrect. I post garbage sometimes and I still pass your checklist snowman.



You don't pass my check list by a long shot! haha. What makes you think that you do? To pass you would have to be far more educated than you appear to be for a start. Anyone who states they flood the forum because they are bored cant be particularly bright... Very few people pass, I could count them on one hand most likely..


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Snowman said:


> I doubt people post to get their post counts up... What would be the point?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



I meant this^

I didn't say I flood the forum because I am bored I was just explaining why I make so many posts. According to you I am either a contributing member of this forum or I have a good sense of humour, those are your words so thank you for them.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> I meant this^
> 
> I didn't say I flood the forum because I am bored I was just explaining why I make so many posts. According to you I am either a contributing member of this forum or I have a good sense of humour, those are your words so thank you for them.



Wow way to twist words. I said less than half your are probably not.... I never said if you have more that you automatically become those things. You simply aren't written off as quickly. To be those things I'd say you actually have to have closer to 65% likes to posts. 

If we look at Jamie. Someone with a sense of humour, contributes and doesn't post rubbish... he has 4067 posts and 2966 likes. That puts him at 72.92844848782887% 

If we look at someone like you... 206 posts and 107 likes.. that puts you at 51.94174757281553.... So by my rule of thumb it says you don't really contribute, not much of a sense of humor and write a lot of crap... Except for 1.94174757281553% of the time 

You said the mods delete a lot of your posts because they are rubbish and you are just bored..

- - - Updated - - -

Of course as your post count goes higher, it's harder to keep a good ratio of liked posts.


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## Red-Ink (Jan 8, 2014)

Snowman said:


> I doubt people post to get their post counts up... What would be the point?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...



The longer people have been around the less they seem to post.... after a while you realise the people your giving experienced advise to, half of them aren't listening or are going to be argumentative. Hard to tell this days if your help is just going to get thrown back at you.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Red-Ink said:


> The longer people have been around the less they seem to post.... after a while you realise the people your giving experienced advise too, half of them aren't listening or are going to be argumentative. Hard to tell this days if your help is just going to get thrown back at you.



Yeah I agree with that.


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

See it's all about how you word your posts, anyone can twist it to fit their opinion or view as you have done by claiming I openly admit to flooding the forum with "rubbish".

Plus I'm fairly positive I have a few likes from you. 

- - - Updated - - -



Snowman said:


> Wow way to twist words. I said less than half your are probably not.... I never said if you have more that you automatically become those things. You simply aren't written off as quickly. To be those things I'd say you actually have to have closer to 65% likes to posts.
> 
> If we look at Jamie. Someone with a sense of humour, contributes and doesn't post rubbish... he has 4067 posts and 2966 likes. That puts him at 72.92844848782887%
> 
> ...



I think you are missing the point lol I don't agree with your little theory about how many people like your posts and I don't think there is any way to truly judge who is experienced enough to be an authority other than reading their posts and the information and facts they provide and then doing your own research on the subject if possible.

The deleted posts I talk about are the ones like in the dusty the bredli scam on gumtree thread, you had posts deleted to but I'm not sitting here claiming your posts were garbage.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> See it's all about how you word your posts, anyone can twist it to fit their opinion or view as you have done by claiming I openly admit to flooding the forum with "rubbish".
> 
> Plus I'm fairly positive I have a few likes from you.
> 
> ...



says us the guy with less than 50% now hahaha. 
Of course there is a way to know who know who the experienced are. It's call common sense. Then there is also knowing who people are what experience they have and how they do things. 
Best of luck with life!


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## Newhere (Jan 8, 2014)

Lmao that was a good one snowy, until I checked and realised I'm still over the 50% mark hahaha :lol:

Yep it's easy to tell who has good advice on here and for the record I consider you to be one of them.


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## Snowman (Jan 8, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Lmao that was a good one snowy, until I checked and realised I'm still over the 50% mark hahaha :lol:
> 
> Yep it's easy to tell who has good advice on here and for the record I consider you to be one of them.



I'm just a noob. But have a few good
mentors. 

You were over 50%. But our chat has put you under


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## Newhere (Jan 9, 2014)

107 x 2 = 214 lol six posts left mate read it and weep


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## Snowman (Jan 9, 2014)

Newhere said:


> 107 x 2 = 214 lol six posts left mate read it and weep


You sure when I looked it was 102


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## Cypher69 (Jan 9, 2014)

mitchR1 said:


> Google is also destroying research value i reckon. you can find millions of answers for newbie questions though a lot of the time its contradicting, and the info may be wrong all together. reptiles i believe is a book hobby. buy books and read them, you cant go past a good piece of herp literature. its black and white and doesnt have 100 links to go off tangent.



But that's the point that ended with me posting "noobie" questions. I bought 2 books by Australian authors that specialised in our native frogs...then I google researched everything else I could.
Various opinions contradicted my questions. Whether it was an author of a book or someone's opinion on the internet...I could never get a straight forward answer that I felt comfortable enough to heed their advice.
Hence I posted "noobie" questions in the past here, relying on people's advice who actually had/have experience in housing/caring for frogs.

Just because a person publishes a book on animal husbandry doesn't mean the publishing company is going to check that all his/her facts are correct.


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## steampunk (Jan 9, 2014)

Cypher69 said:


> But that's the point that ended with me posting "noobie" questions. I bought 2 books by Australian authors that specialised in our native frogs...then I google researched everything else I could.
> Various opinions contradicted my questions. Whether it was an author of a book or someone's opinion on the internet...I could never get a straight forward answer that I felt comfortable enough to heed their advice.
> Hence I posted "noobie" questions in the past here, relying on people's advice who actually had/have experience in housing/caring for frogs.
> 
> Just because a person publishes a book on animal husbandry doesn't mean the publishing company is going to check that all his/her facts are correct.



I agree with you cypher, I've read books that have different husbandry techniques that also contradict opinions on forums.
But I guess people need to have an open mind. As the saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat". 

My advice for newbies is that if your research shows that 80% of keepers use certain setups and they don't get problems. Might be worth doing similar setups. 

Just my 2 cents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eipper (Jan 9, 2014)

Books should be peer reviewed.... This basically means fact checked by suitable people. In both my cases I seeked out the most experienced reviewers I could to make sure my content was verified. All it does in the end make for a better book. With smaller books and self published e books the peer review process could be omitted. 


In regards to blunt replies..... When people demand information, refuse to look something up don't expect people to write an essay...... I speak for myself but most herpers are very busy, time poor people. Years of stupid questions have left me grumpy and result in blunt replies.


cheers
btw everyone is always learning.......more I learn the more I question


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## Trimeresurus (Jan 9, 2014)

Does this mean I win some type of likes to posts ratio reward?


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## borntobnude (Jan 9, 2014)

^^ No


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## Darlyn (Jan 9, 2014)

What exactly is harsh? Telling the truth? 
So many times if people googled their question they would come up with an APS thread with the answer.
That's probably how they find APS in the first place. It is very annoying to post information and get told you are wrong by a newbie
(happens a lot). Also the instances when newbies come in pick up info and share it in the wrong circumstances.
Then experienced people tell them they are incorrect newbie goes ballistic, experienced person gets annoyed, moderators get involved.
So long experienced person, newbie moves on. 1 less experienced person.


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## RedFox (Jan 10, 2014)

I think a recent thread on incubation and dead hatchlings pretty much shows why people can be 'harsh' to newbies.


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## Red-Ink (Jan 10, 2014)

I thought we were harsh to everybody not just newbies???


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## Ramsayi (Jan 10, 2014)

What I have tended to notice a lot over the last year or so is that a lot of people on here seem to be a bit precious.


Far too much tends to be read into matter of fact responses with zero underlaying tones yet some people perceive there is more to the reply than there really is.


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## borntobnude (Jan 10, 2014)

What are you trying to say darling ^^ I don't understand , precious ?


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## Darlyn (Jan 10, 2014)

borntobnude said:


> What are you trying to say darling ^^ I don't understand , precious ?




Ha ha BTBN name is definitely not Darling......anything but.


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## Newhere (Jan 10, 2014)

Yeah I agree with Ramsayi people are too sensitive these days, I blame all the emo music and the skinny jeans if I had my jeans stuck up my bum all day I would be pretty sensitive too.

RexFox I reckon cement must be pretty nice to try and educate someone that won't listen and is rude to him, I don't think that was harsh and in the end he even explained how to eliminate condensation from the tub, harsh would be just telling em to get lost from the get go.


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## RedFox (Jan 10, 2014)

Cement wasn't harsh at all. He was a lot more level headed than maybe the OP deserved. 

My point was the OP's attitude and responses is pretty much why people can be short with newbies.


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## tahnia666 (Jan 10, 2014)

Newhere said:


> Yeah I agree with Ramsayi people are too sensitive these days, I blame all the emo music and the skinny jeans if I had my jeans stuck up my bum all day I would be pretty sensitive too.


 
BAAAHAHAHAHA. Gold newhere!!!


Sent from my HTC Velocity 4G using Tapatalk


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## smeejason (Jan 10, 2014)

My rant 
Everybody is to over sensitive. I think it is because everybody gets an achievement award these days . No one is ever told they are bad at something.. Of course you never think you are wrong when you have never been told you are or ever been bad at anything in your life. 
I cannot believe how precious the generation coming through as young adults are these days. Christ I am not even 40 and I sound like a 80 year old talking about youngens these days but in one generation the gap is massive. But it is more frightening that a young person stands out cause he thinks for himself or can be told they just messed up rather than being the whinging lazy one that stood out a generation ago. 
My kids hate this generation cause the cop my lectures (rants)from me after dealing with gen y apprentices and how if they turn out like that I will beat them.


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## borntobnude (Jan 11, 2014)

smeejason said:


> My .
> My kids hate this generation cause the cop my lectures (rants)from me after dealing with gen y apprentices and how if they turn out like that I will beat them.



I agree , and you cant even lock an apprentice in a freezer anymore without an official complaint against you --Don't even think about setting an apron string on fire - that will leave a permanent scar in their tiny minds .:lol:


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## cement (Jan 11, 2014)

Even sending them down to the hardware store for a long weight makes them come back to the site in tears.


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## Trisky (Jan 11, 2014)

Apprentices today do not appreciate the genius of the older minds.


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## eipper (Jan 11, 2014)

I got sent for a long weight..... I went Herping and turned my phone off. Came back to work the next day


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## borntobnude (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok so back to this newbie stuff 

just looked on another thread with questions from a newb --- All answered by .............................................Newbs !!!! or at least new to APS . As I have said previously I have been keeping herps for 40 odd years but still don't know everything (much ) . These guys know less and give some interesting information to new keepers , based on their short history :shock:


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## Beans (Jan 11, 2014)

Yeah when I got my hatchie I wanted to just double check something about her tank and I got berated about not doing research. Which I had done, I was just making double sure. Kinda made me hesitant from asking for help again I can tell ya. Lol


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## Ramsayi (Jan 11, 2014)

Beans said:


> Yeah when I got my hatchie I wanted to just double check something about her tank and I got berated about not doing research. Which I had done, I was just making double sure. Kinda made me hesitant from asking for help again I can tell ya. Lol



You got two pages worth of advice by people trying to guide you in the right direction and only one person having a dig about researching before getting a reptile.Why would one negative comment out of all the others make you hesitant about asking questions in the future?


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## Darwin-boy (Jan 11, 2014)

i think the problem is to these so called "experienced" people are not as experienced as they seem to think and get cranky when "newbies" correct them and are right! people seem to judge to quick when saying newbie! just because they sign up on APS 5-6 years after the so called "experienced" people does not make them newbies in the reptile world when in actual fact they have been working with reptiles alot longer then most "experienced" people i have talked to people on here that have been members on this site for a month and know more then people that have been on here 3-4 years! people just shouldnt be so quick to judge.


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## phatty (Jan 11, 2014)

Darwin-boy said:


> i think the problem is to these so called "experienced" people are not as experienced as they seem to think and get cranky when "newbies" correct them and are right! people seem to judge to quick when saying newbie! just because they sign up on APS 5-6 years after the so called "experienced" people does not make them newbies in the reptile world when in actual fact they have been working with reptiles alot longer then most "experienced" people i have talked to people on here that have been members on this site for a month and know more then people that have been on here 3-4 years! people just shouldnt be so quick to judge.



You know nothing haha

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## Beans (Jan 12, 2014)

No its the way people say it. They make it sound like you are stupid and its like oh, okay well I know nothing. You know what I mean? I'm passed that now though. Its just very kind of..... I dunno. People here are rough. Lol


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## Trimeresurus (Jan 12, 2014)

Beans said:


> No its the way people say it. They make it sound like you are stupid and its like oh, okay well I know nothing. You know what I mean? I'm passed that now though. Its just very kind of..... I dunno. People here are rough. Lol



It's not always people being condescending (I am guilty of it though) it's just that tone isn't passed through text.


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## Beans (Jan 12, 2014)

Yeah I know it's difficult to get tone of voice into text. But yeah. I dunno I just wasnt used to it I guess.


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## Newhere (Jan 12, 2014)

Sometimes the truth hurts, I didn't see the thread you are talking about beans but if someone tells you to do your research before you get an animal then its not really a negative thing its just the truth. 

You have to remember people that have been here a long time would of seen hundreds of threads about injured and sick animals that are the result of poor husbandry or lack of knowledge and that could have been prevented by the keeper doing their research. Even if they are rude to you its just out of frustration and its nothing personal against you. 

RedFox sorry I read your post wrong the other day


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## bdav70 (Jan 17, 2014)

What newhere is saying is right. I've only been on aps for a few months and already I have seen posts by people which are basically 'hey, just wanted to know everything I should know about spotted pythons, what temps what do they eat, oh and how big do they grow' . And I always think 'really? You don't have two minutes to read a care sheet before you post that??' It comes across as lazy and this sort of thing is usually the cause for rude replies 


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## Beans (Jan 29, 2014)

I had done my research I was just making doubly sure from people with xp in hatchies. Doesn't mean I didn't look into it at all. I had previously watch tons of vids on youtube and looked on here about click clacks which I knew nothing about at the time.


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## CrystalMoon (Jan 30, 2014)

Most genuinely want advice, and a lot of first time keepers do just need that reassurance  reading so much information can be daunting and a little confusing. At the end of the day we all do have a common interest, sometimes we just need to be more patient and remember our own first foray into reptile keeping. This little hobby has turned into a full blown passion for me and brings me joy each day. I do recommend reading as many good herp books as possible, because you never know it all. There are so many experienced reptile keepers on here, and they have so much to offer newcomers. Some can get tetchy, but who cares as long as you are learning something


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## andynic07 (Jan 30, 2014)

My biggest word of advice to a newbie on this site is to observe and as many threads as you can to get the feel of how things work and what people are like.


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## Drazzy (Jan 30, 2014)

I am an athiest but I must add.

View attachment 304837

Thy noob Neighbor.

and love doesnt mean tolerate ^.^ FYI!.


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