# New Carpet Morph



## Retic (May 28, 2006)

These are some photo's of a freaky carpet bred by English breeder Paul Harris. I think it is fair to say most of us probably haven't seen anything quite as interesting as this :lol: 
The photo's have been reproduced with the kind permission of Paul.


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## Snow1369 (May 28, 2006)

Thats Weird lookin but good!


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## Dicco (May 28, 2006)

Very interesting little guy there Boa, what is its background? Was it the only one produced?


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## triptych_angel (May 28, 2006)

Would be interesting to know its lineage.


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## CodeRed (May 28, 2006)

The whole story is on Morelia Pythons
http://www.moreliapythons.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8828


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## dickyknee (May 28, 2006)

It has some nice markings , looks a bit odd but , i dont mind it


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## Pandora (May 28, 2006)

Love the markings nice to see something not the norm ...... 

Curious if anyone else believes the marking on the lighter hatchlings head resembles the Star of David ?? Could be worth a fortune to the religous especially seeing it is on a serpant.


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

Yes I see what you mean, it's a sign I tell ya 
The best thing is that it's lineage being coastal (Jag) and Jungle it is pure so should appeal to everyone.


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## Pandora (May 28, 2006)

You don't have pictures of the Mother and father (son) do you ? Or even the Grandparents ? I would be very interested in seeing the original breeding pair and following the line down to this clutch.


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## TrueBlue (May 28, 2006)

Boa, to me a coaslat/jungle is not pure.


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

I will get in touch with Paul and ask him. I know the parents where to quote Paul ''04 50% Jungle Jaguar male back to his Jungle mother.'
I'm not sure about previous lineage though. Pure animals selectively bred.


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

Thats fine.



TrueBlue said:


> Boa, to me a coaslat/jungle is not pure.


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## Dicco (May 28, 2006)

I'm with Rob, it may be pretty, but to me its still a mongrel


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

Again that's fine but IF the research into carpet genetics shows them to be identical then it is impossible for them to be 'mongrels'.


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## NCHERPS (May 28, 2006)

Dicco said:


> I'm with Rob, it may be pretty, but to me its still a mongrel



Call it what you like guys, but give it 5+years alot of people will be into these type of morph's, especially if it is true about the illegal Jag imports that came into Australia last year.
I think it is exciting, but also like the pure locality specific animals to, I hope we have breeders that keep both groups for decades to come.

Neil


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## Pandora (May 28, 2006)

Mongrel or not ..........I am interested in the pattern and tonal quailities being produced by this selective breeding. Especially if his line photos are forth coming I am wondering how they have differed from the original pair and how many generations he has plan mated thus far. Any idea what he trying to produce in way of marking - colour ?


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## Moreliaman (May 28, 2006)

I could'nt care what anyone thinks of cross bred morelia, i like them & i would gladly part with my hard earned cash to buy them,!!! 
if everyone in the world like the same things then it would be a pretty boring place!!
I have met paul harris..... & although i think he's full of bovine excrement !! , he does produce some lovley little herps!


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

Absolutely spot on, just what I have been aying for a year or more, the 2 are not mutually exclusive. I will fit right into that bracket you describe and I will be able to be trusted to tell people exactly what they are.



NCHERPS said:


> Call it what you like guys, but give it 5+years alot of people will be into these type of morph's, especially if it is true about the illegal Jag imports that came into Australia last year.
> I think it is exciting, but also like the pure locality specific animals to, I hope we have breeders that keep both groups for decades to come.
> 
> Neil


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## scotchbo (May 28, 2006)

id buy one i love those markings mongral or not id still take one


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## jeramie85 (May 28, 2006)

interesting

i guess i like it

but wouldnt buy one


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## Moreliaman (May 28, 2006)

why not jeramie.....u gotta give a reason mate !! its the law !! (honest guv!) :wink:


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## Nephrurus (May 28, 2006)

I would'nt touch it with a ten foot barge pole.... it's still a pretty snake... it still eats and behaves like a carpet (i assume) but it lacks the extra "dimension"(for want of a better word) that locality pure animals have.

-H


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

Hand me the pole, I'll do it


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## krusty (May 28, 2006)

me to boa,and what is this morph going to be called.


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## Mr_goretex (May 28, 2006)

Nice looking snakes boa
I would buy one


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

That's a good question, unfortuntaley I don't have a good answer.



krusty said:


> me to boa,and what is this morph going to be called.


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## krusty (May 28, 2006)

if you find out let us know mate.


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## hugsta (May 28, 2006)

I would buy one as well. I love my locality specific animals but I also enjoy the many "morphs" that are around. There is plenty of room for both IMO, and can't see a problem as long as people are honest in their dealings.


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## Retic (May 28, 2006)

Spot on.


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## krusty (May 28, 2006)

hugsta said:


> I would buy one as well. I love my locality specific animals but I also enjoy the many "morphs" that are around. There is plenty of room for both IMO, and can't see a problem as long as people are honest in their dealings.



thats right mate plenty of room for all.


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## Jason (May 29, 2006)

very interesting it will be good to se how it looks in a few months.


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## PilbaraPythons (May 29, 2006)

Would love to see that snake in a year or two when it colours up. Interesting patterns.


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## Retic (May 29, 2006)

Yes I agree, if you think that all carpets look at their worst when they hatch even 6 months will be interesting. I will try and follow up with some more photo's a little later.


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## krusty (Jun 1, 2006)

and see if you can find out what they call this morph boa. cheers.


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## Hickson (Jun 1, 2006)

boa said:


> Again that's fine but IF the research into carpet genetics shows them to be identical then it is impossible for them to be 'mongrels'.



You have to stop using the word 'identical' in this context, as it is just wrong. The only identical herps are Sdaji's parthenogenetic Bynoe's (and other parth spp.). I know what you mean, but that's not to say everyone else reading your posts will know what you mean - some will take it literally.

If it's any consolation, I don't like the word 'mongrel' either, as it has less than charming connotations.



Hix


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

I agree, I should have said that at a species level they are 'the same' genetically. I should say that in the other thread I did point out that the word identical was wrong.
The term 'mongrel' is used by a couple of people I think to stir things up


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## peterescue (Jun 1, 2006)

Looks like the IJ genes putting in a resurgence to me. Nice though.


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

Definitely no IJ in it from what I can work out. Pure Jag and Jungle seems to be the only blood.


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## TrueBlue (Jun 1, 2006)

Boa,- i dont use the word mongel to stir things up??, i use it because thats what they are.!!


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## MannyM (Jun 1, 2006)

Nephrurus said:


> I would'nt touch it with a ten foot barge pole.... it's still a pretty snake... it still eats and behaves like a carpet (i assume) but it lacks the extra "dimension"(for want of a better word) that locality pure animals have.
> 
> -H



Dimension? What does that even mean?

I for one have no idea why people have a disdain for cross bred/morph snakes. They're still snakes, they still behave like snakes, and they provide a look which adds variety to a species.

Who's to say that a Bredli isn't a morph of two other snakes, a morph that was created a century ago and that has dominated its area till now?

The only negative thing I can think of that's even viable, is if you don't like the look of the animal, but disliking it just because of the word 'morph', I think it's ridiculous.


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## steve6610 (Jun 1, 2006)

pmsl boa, 

must be a lot of mongrels around, even a few exotis mongrels also..........


cheers,
steve...............


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

Manny, I think we have to remember that different people have different likes and dislikes and those views shouldn't be criticised by either side. It would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things. I can appreciate any snake regardless of it's lineage but that's not to say my view is right or wrong. 

Steve, yeah I reckon there are a few exotic mongrel GTP's around


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## peterescue (Jun 1, 2006)

boa said:


> Definitely no IJ in it from what I can work out. Pure Jag and Jungle seems to be the only blood.



if it has jag it has IJ then.


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

Jags are pure McDowelli, I know some think they had IJ to start with but it is pretty well universally accepted from a pure coastal/coastal breeding.


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

http://www.reptilicusreptiles.net/htm2/pythons_jaguar.htm

The Jaguar is a rare genetic mutation that originates, oddly enough, from the Coastal Carpet Python. A private breeder from Norway produced the very first Jaguar back in 1994 while breeding a pair of seemingly normal mcdowelli together. This new trait was proven to be genetic in 1994. From that point forward, the Jaguar has generally been assumed to be of a co-dominant nature. This is because when a Jaguar is bred to normal unrelated mcdowelli, they produce an average of 50% true Jaguars and 50% "normal" appearing siblings per clutch. However, considering the complexity and extreme variability of this morph, we believe the Jaguar to be of a multi-genetic nature (capable of passing on a number of different aberrant genes).


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

http://www.australianaddiction.com/coastal.html


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## peterescue (Jun 1, 2006)

boa said:


> Jags are pure McDowelli, I know some think they had IJ to start with but it is pretty well universally accepted from a pure coastal/coastal breeding.



Obviously not universally accepted then is it? I maintain its IJ and I cant be swayed without a full linage of the animals right back to their removal from Aus.


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## Glimmerman (Jun 1, 2006)

NIIICE. I like the lil fellas. 

I like my reptiles for their looks and personalities. I think it is good that people know the locality of their animals but I don't purchase just because of this. I will however, state whether the locality is know or unkown when it comes to selling their offspring. I just feel it is ethically correct to do business this way.

I currently do not have any morphs or hybrids, however saying this, I would be quite willing to depart with my hard earned cash for a kick ass looking hybrid or two or three. :lol: 

I keep my collection because I enjoy going into my herp room and watching these beautiful specimens. That is why I buy them. I think there are a few more people that feel this way, but just choose to sit on the fence in silence. :wink: 8)


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

I actually said 'pretty well universally accepted' which allows for the odd few  Don't get me wrong, it's good that you have your own view it's just that everyone with first hand knowledge of the animals seems to accept their lineage.



peterescue said:


> boa said:
> 
> 
> > Jags are pure McDowelli, I know some think they had IJ to start with but it is pretty well universally accepted from a pure coastal/coastal breeding.
> ...


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## pugsly (Jun 1, 2006)

> I currently do not have any morphs or hybrids, however saying this, I would be quite willing to depart with my hard earned cash for a kick back side looking hybrid or two or three.
> 
> I keep my collection because I enjoy going into my herp room and watching these beautiful specimens. That is why I buy them. I think there are a few more people that feel this way, but just choose to sit on the fence in silence.



Here here


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## steve6610 (Jun 1, 2006)

go glimmerman.........
but be careful, it isn't right just to want to like your snakes, you must like them and know where they came from, i know where all mine came from, i just have to check my licence book and it tells me the sellers addresses, 
so all my snakes are known location types, i'm also willing to give 100% proof of where they came from...........

i really want to know how many herpers keep what they think to be ugly reptiles.............

cheers,
steve........


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## JasonL (Jun 1, 2006)

I think they are ugly, and i'm not even totally against morphs. Sorry.


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## steve6610 (Jun 1, 2006)

hi jason,
thats fine, at least you have a reason , not everybody likes the same thing or we would all be bored out of our mind, 

there are lots of morphs and hybrids that i don't like also, but there are also pure snakes and reptiles that i'd never own as well, 

i have to like what i own, where or how it came about isn't as important to me as the looks..........

cheers,
steve...........


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2006)

peterescue said:


> boa said:
> 
> 
> > Jags are pure McDowelli, I know some think they had IJ to start with but it is pretty well universally accepted from a pure coastal/coastal breeding.
> ...



They are definately Orignally coastal. The first jags were produced from a coastal tri-stripe in the US by a breeder named...? I can find out... should have an answer for you by this arvo and i lineage history.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2006)

Here we go, this has the full story on jags! And was written by the original breeder.

Pay special attention to the last paragraph on the jag page, it clears up the myths about IJ jags.

http://www.jaguarpython.com/home.htm


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## peterescue (Jun 1, 2006)

boa said:


> it's just that everyone with first hand knowledge of the animals seems to accept their lineage.


how many is that and how many are posting here. That would be a big duck I egg wouldn't it?

I am extremely doubtful that the animals can be trraced back in entirety back to Australia. 
Add to this the common misconception that a lot of species that are pandemic to the Oceanic region are often mistakenly represented as Australian when they in fact come from PNG, Irain Jaya(West Papua) or Islands this side of the Wallace line.


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## Retic (Jun 1, 2006)

They actually originated in Norway and I seem to recall the parents were just normal coloured coastals.



waruikazi said:


> They are definately Orignally coastal. The first jags were produced from a coastal tri-stripe in the US by a breeder named...? I can find out... should have an answer for you by this arvo and i lineage history.


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## waruikazi (Jun 1, 2006)

Yeah Just found that out... prolly should have read that web page first lol.


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## shazam (Jun 1, 2006)

I like them...


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## Glimmerman (Jun 1, 2006)

> go glimmerman.........
> but be careful, it isn't right just to want to like your snakes, you must like them and know where they came from, i know where all mine came from, i just have to check my licence book and it tells me the sellers addresses,
> so all my snakes are known location types, i'm also willing to give 100% proof of where they came from...........



I know where they came from ,they are in my records (minus the GPRS bearings).  
I know where I came from and i just realised.... 
I am actually a Hybrid and I know my locality and lineage. It's on my Birth Certificate. :wink: 
Why can't this hybridisation concept be acceptible in Reptilia Land? :cry:


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 1, 2006)

I find this specimen interesting, if this is a true coastal then it makes you wonder about the genetics behind the Morelia s. family. I think you could fool anyone into believing this to be a jungle...


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 1, 2006)

That photo came from here by the way: http://www.jaguarpython.com/docs/Jaguar/jagsib.htm


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## Glimmerman (Jun 1, 2006)

> That photo came from here by the way: http://www.jaguarpython.com/docs/Jaguar/jagsib.htm


Now after looking at that site ..... I'm really concerned about locality..... NOT

How could you not LOVE HYBRIDS. 8) 

Their locality should be in my collection. :lol:


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

:lol: :lol:


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## Pike01 (Jun 2, 2006)

I too have doubts they are full coastals, i just cant believe it cause it is written on a web site.Looks like there is jungle in there somewhere.Maybe he dosent want to give away his recipe.Also do the original breeders know the linage of the coastals right back to Australia, dosent that make them crooks.


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

So now a Jag is a coastal/IJ/jungle


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## peterescue (Jun 2, 2006)

Why not boa. Is it so important that they be true Aussie coastals. Isn't it about the outcome? Everytime this thread pops its head up; about every two months; the same BS is spouted.
it onkly matters about their origin if you are concerened about people making false claims which is what i get peeved about. Bit like german Giants.


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

ive seen coastals on the sunshine coast that look very much like that carpet, snakewrangler. infact some of them looked close enough to be sibblings of that animal.


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## hugsta (Jun 2, 2006)

I agree with Peter and have said they were IJ/mcdowelli for ages. I don't believe they are mcdowelli x mcdowelli.


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

Why am I not surprised :lol: Any photo's by chance ?



TrueBlue said:


> ive seen coastals on the sunshine coast that look very much like that carpet, snakewrangler. infact some of them looked close enough to be sibblings of that animal.


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

That's fine I guess we can say they are anything we want them to be and I also guess you don't have to beleive they are what the breeder has said they are.
Peter, it isn't important at all to me that they are coastals, seeing as the breeder hasn't a problem with non pure animals I can see no reason at all to say they are something they aren't. I do agree about the same BS getting spouted though. 



hugsta said:


> I agree with Peter and have said they were IJ/mcdowelli for ages. I don't believe they are mcdowelli x mcdowelli.


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

you TRYING to be smart boa.!!
after relocating a few thousand carpets over a 13-14 year period on the sunshine coast i would of seen at least a dozen that looked very simular to that animal.
wether you belive it or not boa, i really dont care.!


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## Pike01 (Jun 2, 2006)

Ive seen coastals that colour too, minus the head pattern.


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

Sorry I thought you could take as well as give, my mistake.  



TrueBlue said:


> you TRYING to be smart boa.!!
> after relocating a few thousand carpets over a 13-14 year period on the sunshine coast i would of seen at least a dozen that looked very simular to that animal.
> wether you belive it or not boa, i really dont care.!


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## indicus (Jun 2, 2006)

I've seen alot of jungles that look like that......but it must be a coastal; because someone told me so :roll:  
Does anyone have one of these type coastals (in Oz) ?; seems they have every other type.....a little odd IMO.


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## Moreliaman (Jun 2, 2006)




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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

I just would have thought with all these oddities so common in the wild that there would be a few floating around in collections out there, seems a fair thing to expect really.
Rob I think you are taking this forum far too seriously, don't forget what you said to me once, it's all in fun.


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

you need to get out more then to indicus.


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

theres bound to be a few out there, i was heavily into elapids untill 3-4 years back and couldnt be bothered with pythons, besides wild animals cannot be kept.


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## indicus (Jun 2, 2006)

Haha.....looks better then some of your jungles TB....just kidding; dont panic!!!
Again, show me a pic of a coastal that looks like that, in a Oz collection.
I've seen most other examples represented, why none of these?
Looks closer to a jungle then a coastal, both in colour and pattern.....
Oh i'll try getting out more :roll:


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

That snake is a Jag/Jungle so I guess the Jungle side could definitely be dominant. I would love to see a wild coastal/Jungle like that one, there must be a photo somewhere ?


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

I agree it looks better than alot of jungles, i saw one from the hinterland behind coroy that was mind boggling, jet black with three bright yellow strippes, one down the back and one each side. IMO this particular coastal was better looking than any jungle ive ever seen.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 2, 2006)

I personally think that the snake pictured has a very jungle like pattern, especially from the end of the neck up through the head.

I am not a strong supporter of either side of the "mongrel" debate, however I do believe it is inevitable that "designer" snakes will become very prominent and popular in Australia, I just hope that the pure locality ones are not lost in the process, I simply posted that picture as an interesting specimen that was "said" to be a pure coastal, the fact that the breeder has absolutely no objection to crossbreeding would suggest that they have no reason to lie, although this in itself does not assure the truth is being told.

I would be interested to know how one would identify a true pure coastal in the wild if it looks like or better than a real jungle? If it is based on the location, how can you be sure that a jungle hasn't moved out of its normal locality and started breeding with coastals or whatever other compatible snake it encountered? Could the ones seen in the wild be a natural integrade of coastal and jungle?


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

snakewrangler,- considering that the sunshine coast is 1400-1500kms south of jungle territory it would be impossible for them to be natural intergrades.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 2, 2006)

What if someone a long time ago took jungles from their natural location and released them there? It wouldn't be a natural integrade but still this is a very real possibility.

I am not even trying to say your are wrong, I am simply asking how do you know for sure? Obviously you can't know for sure, you have to make an educated guess, but it is still possible. I am not looking to start an argument, I am just interested.


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## dee4 (Jun 2, 2006)

Everybody knows that TB doesn't have a camera.!!!


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## herptrader (Jun 2, 2006)

It looks very similar to (very nice looking) black and white jungles I have seen. (Or it will do when it loses that just hatched look.

The stripy thing is often attributed to low incubation temperatures.

Should be a stunning looking adult.


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

snakewrangler, the reason i know that they arent an intergrade is from the morphology of the animals in question and because iv seen them in different areas and habitats on the sunshine coast, much to wide spread to come from an escaped or released animal.


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## Lucas (Jun 2, 2006)

i want one


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 2, 2006)

Like I said TB, it is an "educated" guess that you are making.

As I stated earlier, if this is a true coastal, and if as you say there are true coastals in the wild that look like this then the relationship of jungles and coastals must be closer than most would be comfortable with. It would also pose a serious problem for locality only breeding programs because what if one of these "coastals" were to get into someones collection as a jungle? The offspring would be mongrels and you wouldn't even know it! :shock:

But the real questions are, could it be prevented and would it really matter?

Very interesting...


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## TrueBlue (Jun 2, 2006)

Not an educated "guess" at all, the morphology of them is coastal.
coastal carperts come in almost every colour and pattern you could think of, ive seen some that resemble murry darlings, jungles, even one that looked rather bredli-ish. They are extremely variable in colour and pattern to say the least.


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## Retic (Jun 2, 2006)

If there are Jungles that look like that in the wild then yes as you say the relationship between Coastals and Jungles is far closer than 
had been thought possibly.
The thought the thing that separated them was that they apparently looked so obviously different but here we have a snake that looks better tha a lot of Jungles but is a coastal or there are at least wild coastals that look the same. 
I would defy a lot of Jungle fans (in fact most) to look at that photo and say it is a coastal, of course with no previous knowledge of the snake.


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## SnakeWrangler (Jun 2, 2006)

Yeah, I don't mean to say that you are guessing, it is a saying that I have always thought to mean a persons belief, idea, theory or whatever is based upon what they know through study and experience, that is why it is called and "educated" guess, what I am saying however is a guess as I do not know much about their morphology, locality, genetics, etc...

I agree, of all the photos of snakes I have seen, coastals are by far the most variable, maybe (and this is a guess :lol they are the original species from which all Morelia s. sub species came, through isolated breeding and adaption in their respective localities...


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## Jungleland (Jun 2, 2006)

Hello Guys,

The pics that snake wrangler posted is reallly pretty looking animal, Jungle or coastral what ever it is,  there's a young woman out of brisbane that hatch out a couple of coastal that is similar to that one, jet black and yellow dead ringer to some jungles that i've seen and the rest of the clutch is just normal coastal looking( what's a normal coastal looking on the first place???  )

I'm sure True blue and Pike1 could share stories of some unusual carpets that they see in the wild, I also know of a few people on this list that seen some wild looking carpets up north. About 7-8 years ago I bought a carpet from Tim (URS) Just similar to what TrueBlue was describing on that carpet he saw around hinterland(coroy) A very pretty snake with Jungle temperement, I recall Tim calling them grafton local.

I think the more we see on what"s around and what's getting bred we'll realise even more on how highly variable this species can be.

Regards all


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