Aussie vs PNG Chondros

[ssnakeboyy]

Hey everyone,

Im hopefully going to be able to obtain a green tree python around the beginning of next year with a bit of help from the money made from my currently breeding womas (fingers crossed i get some babies).

I have found a few sites, a couple of which sell sorong and biak gtps. From what ive read, the majority of the morphs like calico and blue line are produced from biaks. Where as sorong generally just have blue marks where the white would be on biaks. The aussie chondros are all a lighter shade of green generally with less blue and from what ive heard they are more tame overall.

As im fairy sure im going try breeding the gtps down the track, im wondering if anyone knows what people would more readily buy between the natives and the biaks/sorong. To me both animals look awesome but i think im leaning toward the native.

Also for a first chondro would you recommend getting a hatchy or yearling as ive heard mixed opinions.

cheers, ssnakeboyy

 

[Owzi]

Hi ssnakeboyy,
GTPs are all beautiful & you won't be able to stop at a few!

Great question regarding morphs/designer Chondros.
In Australia we are really in the early years of developing some of the great lines that we see overseas, particularly in America. However I think you are on the money, my belief is many/most of these will come from Biak type & Biak type outcrosses (mixing Biak type bloodlines with other types).
Yes, Sorongs types (and Jayapura types) are known to have nice amounts of blue, particularly down there backs.
Aussies are a beautiful lime green with various amounts of white/yellow scales down there backs. Unfortunately it seems line breeding for more white/yellow doesn't seem to be increasing these. I love the Aussies & keep & breed them myself, but I see little variation in them other than the white/yellow scales, so not much potential for line breeding for particular traits.
It's really a personal decision & you need to choose what your going to enjoy most.

Do a lot of research & talk to as many people as possible before deciding on a purchase, unfortunately there are some folk out there that label there animals Biak, Sorong etc. simply to just ask a higher price, when the animals are actually unknown mixed lines.

I would recommend buying directly from a breeder who sells you a well established juvenile. Most breeders will be careful with new keepers & sell them something they are confident will do well. We don't want to see our youngins do poorly with new owners.

Hopefully it's ok to share a new page that's been set up by several breeders & keepers to help educate everyone about Green Pythons, there no money being made out of it, it's solely about sharing the passion for this species- check out www.greentreepythonsaustralia.com

 

[chrondo]

Hi ssnakeboyy, this is Chrondo, lucky you I wanted a green tree python, but National Parks and Wildlife rejected my application as I didn't have the cage set up to photograph it

 

[PistolPython]

Hi ssnakeboyy, this is Chrondo, lucky you I wanted a green tree python, but National Parks and Wildlife rejected my application as I didn't have the cage set up to photograph it

I just gave them a really good scetch.
I wanted to know if I could get a permit first. Bit silly buying everything then not to get a permit.

 

[ssnakeboyy]

Hi ssnakeboyy,
GTPs are all beautiful & you won't be able to stop at a few!

Great question regarding morphs/designer Chondros.
In Australia we are really in the early years of developing some of the great lines that we see overseas, particularly in America. However I think you are on the money, my belief is many/most of these will come from Biak type & Biak type outcrosses (mixing Biak type bloodlines with other types).
Yes, Sorongs types (and Jayapura types) are known to have nice amounts of blue, particularly down there backs.
Aussies are a beautiful lime green with various amounts of white/yellow scales down there backs. Unfortunately it seems line breeding for more white/yellow doesn't seem to be increasing these. I love the Aussies & keep & breed them myself, but I see little variation in them other than the white/yellow scales, so not much potential for line breeding for particular traits.
It's really a personal decision & you need to choose what your going to enjoy most.

Do a lot of research & talk to as many people as possible before deciding on a purchase, unfortunately there are some folk out there that label there animals Biak, Sorong etc. simply to just ask a higher price, when the animals are actually unknown mixed lines.

I would recommend buying directly from a breeder who sells you a well established juvenile. Most breeders will be careful with new keepers & sell them something they are confident will do well. We don't want to see our youngins do poorly with new owners.

Hopefully it's ok to share a new page that's been set up by several breeders & keepers to help educate everyone about Green Pythons, there no money being made out of it, it's solely about sharing the passion for this species- check out www.greentreepythonsaustralia.com

Thanks Owzi, I will definitely take a look at the page.


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Hi ssnakeboyy, this is Chrondo, lucky you I wanted a green tree python, but National Parks and Wildlife rejected my application as I didn't have the cage set up to photograph it

that sucks, hopefully you get your request granted eventually.

 

[longqi]

With the dubious quality of most 'biaks' in Aus you may have a long wait to develop calicos from them
Most biak are not calico and same goes for most pure locales

There are several points to understand about Papuan chondros
1 =99% are from Indonesia not PNG
2 =A few were declared during an amnesty a long time ago
3 =All the rest have been and continue to be smuggled into Australia
4 =Example=No canary yellows were declared because they had not been found at the time of the amnesty... yet they frequently come up for sale in Aus

If you really want Papuan chondros look at Arfaks Nabiras Kofiau/Misools and Cyclops
Most of the rest are fairly similar to Cape Yorks

Imo you are better off sticking to Aussies
Some breeders are getting mite phase now [Im not keen on mite phase. but its a step to more morphs]

 

[ssnakeboyy]

With the dubious quality of most 'biaks' in Aus you may have a long wait to develop calicos from them
Most biak are not calico and same goes for most pure locales

There are several points to understand about Papuan chondros
1 =99% are from Indonesia not PNG
2 =A few were declared during an amnesty a long time ago
3 =All the rest have been and continue to be smuggled into Australia
4 =Example=No canary yellows were declared because they had not been found at the time of the amnesty... yet they frequently come up for sale in Aus

If you really want Papuan chondros look at Arfaks Nabiras Kofiau/Misools and Cyclops
Most of the rest are fairly similar to Cape Yorks

Imo you are better off sticking to Aussies
Some breeders are getting mite phase now [Im not keen on mite phase. but its a step to more morphs]

Thanks for clearing that up. Im thinking i might start off with natives and grow from there as i like the look of the natives better than the Indonesian ones unless they are high blue or calico, in which case they probably cost heaps more anyway.

Im also curious as to how much if any blue is on the natives as its hard to tell from pictures. it would be great if anyone had any close ups

 

[longqi]

If you draw a line horizontally across the centre of Papua you will find that most blue chondros come from North of that line
Aru Merauke etc etc have few blue chondros
Much more similar to Cape Yorks

 

[ssnakeboyy]

Ok cheers thats a handy tip

 

[DazSa]

Sorry to get of subject but Owzi great gtp info site. Any way to register it on reptiles.com.au to get your knowelege out there.The Australian reptile directory page is great. While I am at it Longqi any more pics to post ,I love it when you post them.I am trying hard to get over and go on a trip with BRR.

 

[Owzi]

Longqi I agree with many of your points but just want to comment on a couple.

Yes there is dubious quality 'types' of every locality. However we are getting educated well enough now to know what characteristics to look for in the main 'types'.
They can be tricky to find, but a few dedicated breeders are working with & producing some great examples of these locality's now. When buying a particular type of chondro, you should buy from a breeder who shares photos of the pair mating, female ovulating, female on eggs & eggs hatching to remove the worry of obtaining a GTP from unknown backgrounds.

Canary yellows or Kofiau Island chondros have not frequently been for sale in Aus.

The localities you mentioned are not Papuan as in Papua New Guinea, they are from the Indonesian side of New Guinea.
Nabire, Cyclops, Lereh & Arso are all localities or types that could basically be lumped together under 'Jayapura type'. As you say, north of the central mountain range.
Misool, Arfak, Waigeo and Salawati are all localities or types that could basically be lumped together under 'Sorong type'. These are from the Vogelkop Peninsula and Raja Ampat regions.

Not meaning to be a smart ****, I've just done a lot of research on this & trying to share information that's as accurate as possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry to get of subject but Owzi great gtp info site. Any way to register it on reptiles.com.au to get your knowelege out there.The Australian reptile directory page is great.

Cheers for the idea DazSa, we are still updating it but I can tell its going to be one of those beasts that continues to evolve! Will look into it

 

[longqi]

Owzi
Fairly big differences between even Sorong types
eg Highland Misool and Arfak just to name 3
Kofiau and Misool both produce the canary yellows
Both islands produce virtually identical small chondros
5yrs ago 55 Kofiau/misools canary babies were smuggled into Aus and only 7 high yellows were kept by 2 breeders
So at least 48 poorer colour canarys hit the market

Papua is Indonesia
Papua New Guinea is the Eastern side of the island

Will put more photos up in next few days
Shinta is in Borneo now so Im flat out like a lizard drinking

 

[ssnakeboyy]

So are the kofiau technically illegal as they werent put on the papers in the amnesty?

 

[Waterrat]

No particular locality types were on licences in the amnesty, just "Green Tree Python". The so called "locality" GTPs we have here didn't come from the bush, they came from Indonesian snake farms.

 

[Owzi]

Owzi
Fairly big differences between even Sorong types
eg Highland Misool and Arfak just to name 3
Kofiau and Misool both produce the canary yellows
Both islands produce virtually identical small chondros
5yrs ago 55 Kofiau/misools canary babies were smuggled into Aus and only 7 high yellows were kept by 2 breeders
So at least 48 poorer colour canarys hit the market

Papua is Indonesia
Papua New Guinea is the Eastern side of the island

Will put more photos up in next few days
Shinta is in Borneo now so Im flat out like a lizard drinking

Longqi,
Ive shared a bit of dialog with Daniel Natusch on this subject but I don't want to say I'm quoting him because I may have got some of this wrong. From my understanding many of the localities associated with chondro types are more because of the marketing from the Indonesian chondro farms/exporters (eg, Wamena type- no chondros found in Wamena). Misool, Waigeo, Salawati are all from the Raja Ampat of which variation is basically encompassed within the sites, including others in the Vogelkop Peninsula like Sorong & Manokwari. While Kofiau Island is in the Raja Ampat as well, I'm led to believe they are the only locality that holds onto their yellow. If Kofiaus do change colour (as we've seen in America with some) they look similar to other animals in this area. Your comments of Misools holding onto yellow is the first I've heard of that.

Your stats about smuggled chondros & how many high yellows in Oz are extreamley accurate. I know of several high yellows with keepers, these are not Kofiaus. I follow the chondro market closely & have been involved for 6 years or so now, I've never heard or seen any advertised- obviously they could be somewhere quietly hidden away!

Papua is province of Indonesia, as is West Papua & Maluku, those three provinces are where chondros are found in Indonesia. To keep it simple I just refer to it as Indonesia.

So are the kofiau technically illegal as they werent put on the papers in the amnesty?

Grey area, we are allowed to keep Morelia viridis in Oz, they are all Morelia viridis (for now)

 

[longqi]

Misool and Kofiau are only a few ks apart
But they are well separated from the mainland of Papua
Thats why there is no real distinction between the chondros there
Both lots of chondros are small and appear to produce similar numbers of yellow adults
Kofiau canary high yellow was how they hit the market
Sellers didnt want to muddy the waters

Wildlife hunters dont even go there now
Pushed them nearly to the point of no return
No longer commercially viable

Interesting aside regarding boelins
All over the internet you will see an 'expert' on boelins begging for money to return to Papua
On his last trip in March he posted photos of him in a village
3 weeks after he returned home his daughter named his new boelins from that village
100% protected snake illegally wild caught and exported and yet publicly advertised????

This guy is good
Knows a lot about boelins
Knows they are a sacred untouchable snake in that part of Papua
But now he is teaching the locals how to catch them uninjured and send them to Jakarta through an export farm solely so he can make huge profits and wants others to pay his way to do this

His friend recently advertised in facebook taking orders on protected species stating openly he was visiting Halmahera then Papua on a collection trip
Openly stating the captive animals will be quarantined in Jakarta
[quarantine means renamed as captive bred for export]

These same people openly support total protection of tigers elephants whales turtles rhinos etc etc
But when it comes to reptiles couldnt care less

Until this sort of rubbish is stopped wildlife smuggling will remain a billion dollar business

 

[Waterrat]

Peter, I agree, the US import is heavily responsible for taking protected species from the wild. But, what about the rotten, corrupted Indonesian officials? Shouldn't the stopping of the "rubbish", as you put it, start there? The laundering in Jakarta farms is happening right under their noses but $$$ come before the law.

 

[longqi]

Peter, I agree, the US import is heavily responsible for taking protected species from the wild. But, what about the rotten, corrupted Indonesian officials? Shouldn't the stopping of the "rubbish", as you put it, start there? The laundering in Jakarta farms is happening right under their noses but $$$ come before the law.

To stop wildlife smuggling the only way is to stop the end users
Otherwise as soon as one operation is shut down another takes its place

Its easy to blame Indonesians but put yourself in their shoes
Export farm wants to rebadge wild caught as captive bred
They ship 20 shipments a year
Official says no way
They go to next guy up the chain of command
Tell him $500 per shipment of 100 animals
Thats $10.000 per year for somebody whose wages are only $3.500 per year
Money involved in this is mind blowing
Baby boelins from Kabire in Papua $50 each
Shipment and bribes to USA $110 each
End price in any market $2000 each
Profit for just one snake =$1840
Over 100 exported from one farm last year and that farm has never once bred boelins
Pure Profit = $180.000 on just one species

When you have so called world leading breeding/conservation experts publicly supporting wildlife smuggling little can be done

About stopping end users
Few years ago South Africa injected rhinos with something that made end users sick if they injested the horn
Diplomat/politician got sick
That government put so much pressure on that they had to stop it
Should have been strychnine???

 

[DanN]

To stop wildlife smuggling the only way is to stop the end users
Otherwise as soon as one operation is shut down another takes its place

Or... they could just legalise wild collection. That has been, and probably always will be, the best solution.

When you have so called world leading breeding/conservation experts publicly supporting wildlife smuggling little can be done

"World leading", "conservation expert" is a major stretch.... I agree though, frustrating nonetheless.

 

[lexy1]

Wow what an interesting thread, haven't been on for a while. Can someone please pm me this so called "expert". Very interesting facts Longqi thanks for sharing.