Disappointed...

[Biologist]

Now I have not been on this site long, and I don't know if it's just because I am an animal keeper type professionally used to educating children and the public, but I have found it a little disappointing and generally disheartening the way a surprisingly large percentage of people respond to questions, opinions and peoples personal experience and knowledge. I mean this site is in principal a great idea, a way for people to come together and learn about reptiles or even converse with people with similar interests. I have been reading many many threads and the more I read the more disheartened I get. Do we attack people because they haven't had a snake before and don't know the best way to go about things? I think not. Everyone has to learn sometime, and believe it or not there was a time where you didn't know everything yourself. Personally I am overjoyed that people are trying to be responsible and gain the approriate knowledge to keep an animal happy and healthy, rather than ridiculing them for not knowing all the answers (no one does). Especially considering there can be so many variables there are not always clear black and white answers (eg. just because a particular species is considered placid, doesn't mean they all will be), so it is often easier disscussing things with many different people and see what has happened in their experience, rather than vaguely trying to puzzle something out from a book, or the pet store attendant that has never had a reptile and only worked there two weeks. Some people will gets stuff, never take the the time to look into things, then wonder why it dies 2 months later. I think as people that claim to care about reponsible pet ownership we should be supportive and commending them for being responsible. If people offer oppinions or detail their own experience, then you don't criticise them and say they are wrong (it is THEIR opinion and experience after all, not yours... they know about it, not you) ... you might say "oh on top of what they said..." or "My experience differed to so and so's because with me this happened instead and I found this..."

A huge amount of the general public are afraid or or just don't care for reptiles... I think it is great to get as many people as possible to have a possitive attitude about them through education, as this helps conservation efforts. If people get ridiculed for their lack of knowledge or differences in opinions and experiences it may make them abandon the whole interest altogether, or just avoid other reptile owners altogether, and I think that is a tragic waste. No one knows everything about any animal (just as you can't know everything about another person) and I think we all have alot to learn off each other. I know alot of people may just not realise how harsh their wording sounds in text when their desired tone etc isn't always clear, but alot of it can accidently come across as degrading or condescending. As part of my job I educate small children through to adults alike about reptiles, and I would NEVER flat out tell them they are wrong about something, I might inform them of what I know or suggest factors they didn't think of, but the key to education (not to mention enjoying a hobby) is positivity... that's why they don't let teachers in schools use the strap anymore, and they sure don't let them belittle the kids.

Now before anyone gets up in arms and argues with my words, this is just my OPINION (which I am entitled to) and I am not claiming everyone on here is horrible and rude...I am not saying anything against the site itself... I am merely saying that I think it'd be nice to see people welcomed into a positive atmosphere and being encouraged rather than feeling bullied, no more, no less. Am sure someone will find something to pick to pieces though.

I personally vow to try and be conscience with my writings and responses in here, I hope some of you all will feel the same way and endevour to be as encouraging as possible.

 

[Trimeresurus]

I for the most part agree with your opinion, however I also think some people need to be less sensitive. It's the internet.

 

[Biologist]

True, but sooo many times i've read someone say similar to 'a friend of mine has the cuddliest scrub python... are they a good first snake' somepeople are literally getting all worked up and throwing deliberate insults because they don't know, rather than saying 'hey your friend is lucky to get a gentle one, usually they are a bit full on and tend to go better with experienced keepers... perhaps you could try this instead etc...' I mean I know people can be touchy on the net, but I can honestly say a surprising number on this particular site are quick to attack. Now if the person asking the original comment had made an indecent comment about their mother, I could understand... not just asking for their opinion. Then again, it could just be me... working with kids a great deal of the time I have to go to be educated on cyber bullying and other potential nasty situations. Alot of the time though people say things and they don't know if they are addressing an emotionally fragile 13yo trying to find a snake friend because they can't make any human friends, or a 50yo farmer who has insults run off them like water. You are right, everywhere you go on the net there is always gonna be one or two jerks here or there... but plenty of young people commit suicide over stuff people say on the net. Some people go to the net to talk to people because no one will be nice to them in real life, then have strangers that have never even met them being harsh... can be a bit much for them. Never know what will be the straw that broke the camels back.


Personally, I don't like anyone to feel bad. Not saying we should all run out and hug them like a creepy cult or anything... just maybe go easy until we get to know who we are talking to... lol or at the very least go be mean to people on a site designed without a specific constructive purpose so we don't find ourselves being contrary to our own cause.

 

[Ameron]

Agreed - You Are Right

What you describe is not just a problem on this forum, it’s a universal problem. From what I’ve seen, however, reactions on other categories of forums are MUCH more severe than here.

I would explain this phenomenon thusly:

1. The world is getting meaner because Criminals have usurped control of society.
(This is not Human Nature; it’s the nature of Enslaved People.)

2. The politics of Fear & Isolation are being used much more often, numbing societies and isolating non-similar individuals.

3. Speaking face-to-face is becoming scare, and it caries with it the obligation of being accountable for your actions – up to the point of being hit in the face if you offend. Online forums permit a person to hide behind a keyboard, make whatever statement they like, and evade accountability. This environment favors & encourages brutish, crass behavior – and deception.

A few days ago, I made an Aussie forum post that was several paragraphs, presented new ideas and included a link to Flick photos. (A similar post at Kingsnake.com a few weeks ago got the response of “best read on this forum in months”.) Checking my forum post, I’ve now settled into page two sediment, with no replies. I may have been too sophisticated for my audience.

(American & Australian herpers tend to use minimalistic housing setups, often plastic containers having only one hide spot & water dish. Their focus in on convenience for the Owner, and conformity of diet for the snake. In contrast, many European herpers tend to favor naturalistic setups, live feeding & a varied diet which mimic natural conditions.)

*We need a new socio-political model rewarding leadership based on merit, ability & performance, and policies which diffuse concentrated power and benefit the majority.*

Until then, hopefully in the coming days we will see an improvement in tone and content quality on this forum. Maybe we will also see more persons taking personal responsibility to give others the benefit of the doubt, and to treat others with tact, discretion & diplomacy.

“The nature of the pageant is determined by the nature of the players.”
Ancient Proverb

“If your social system rewards criminals and mocks or punishes men who are honest & good, do not expect for good men to remain being good for long.”
Ancient Proverb

1.0 Antaresia maculosa
0.1 Pantherophis guttatus (Carolina)
1.0 Elaphe schrencki

Flickr link: Flickr: Options 2010's Photostream

 

[sd1981]

True, but sooo many times i've read someone say similar to 'a friend of mine has the cuddliest scrub python... are they a good first snake' somepeople are literally getting all worked up and throwing deliberate insults because they don't know, rather than saying 'hey your friend is lucky to get a gentle one, usually they are a bit full on and tend to go better with experienced keepers... perhaps you could try this instead etc...' I mean I know people can be touchy on the net, but I can honestly say a surprising number on this particular site are quick to attack. Now if the person asking the original comment had made an indecent comment about their mother, I could understand... not just asking for their opinion. Then again, it could just be me... working with kids a great deal of the time I have to go to be educated on cyber bullying and other potential nasty situations. Alot of the time though people say things and they don't know if they are addressing an emotionally fragile 13yo trying to find a snake friend because they can't make any human friends, or a 50yo farmer who has insults run off them like water. You are right, everywhere you go on the net there is always gonna be one or two jerks here or there... but plenty of young people commit suicide over stuff people say on the net. Some people go to the net to talk to people because no one will be nice to them in real life, then have strangers that have never even met them being harsh... can be a bit much for them. Never know what will be the straw that broke the camels back.


Personally, I don't like anyone to feel bad. Not saying we should all run out and hug them like a creepy cult or anything... just maybe go easy until we get to know who we are talking to... lol or at the very least go be mean to people on a site designed without a specific constructive purpose so we don't find ourselves being contrary to our own cause.

I agree with everything you have said.... However, the problem IMO, is that when people type a comment, it can be misinterpreted by the reader if they don't work on the same lines as the poster...... That's why I think there should be a universal symbol for sarcasm or joke only.... "ie: a scrub python is a great starter snake, very cuddly! (Insert sarcasm/joke symbol here)" so that people can get that you don't really mean it and to take it as an attempt at humour only....
I believe that people should be given the benefit of the doubt when posting on a forum as our experience levels all vary significantly and these forums can be a great source of education... I know I've learnt plenty from senior members, not only on the reptiles I keep but others that I had zero knowledge about previously. I do have an issue when people do get on and ask the same question in 10 different threads, don't like the answers from some of the most knowledgable herpers around, and get argumentative about it. If I ask for advice and 10 people with decades of experience tell me I'm doing something wrong, I take it on board.... I hope that this has come out in the way that I have intended (not argumentative, just an expression of my opinion)

cheers
simon

 

[bigjoediver]

As per Simons post above, some people just can't be told. They don't really want your opinion they just want you to agree with them regardless. Ive lost count of the threads where people give good detailed advice only to have it ignored by the OP or shot down by someone who had limited or no experience on the subject at hand. Sometimes it can be hard to bite your tongue and not respond in a harsh way. Opinions are just opinions, try to respect others whether you agree with them or not.


Joe

 

[Firepac]

It is really pretty simple....

If you can't post without attacking someone..... DON'T POST
If you don't like helping new members who ask a question that has been asked many times before..... DON'T POST
If you can't post without swearing.....DON'T POST

Easy

 

[Bluetongue1]

You might like to look at the thread entitled “Dont be so harsh on newbies....” started by montysrainbow. The internet” is NO an excuse for rudeness. I believe conversations should be conducted in the same manner as face to face contact. There would be far less rudeness. The moderators here a doing a good job. However, they need the assistance of everyday users to hit that little triangular report button a lot more often and sooner rather than later.

Internet forums vary in the degree of rude and insensitive individuals that utilise them. APS has had more than its share in the past but from my perspective it has improved markedly and I feel that your stated assessment of the forum in this respect is not an accurate reflection of where it is overall at the moment. It does not do justice to the many who are here to learn and who are wanting to repay the favours by sharing what they have learned that has been effective and helpful to them.

Blue

 

[borntobnude]

As an "older"person i am a huge fan of sarcasim , but alas i think it is not efective on the internet OR most people under 25 . I am a member of another forum that has a taget of family's and older couples ,it is extemely informative for its audience ans every now and then there may be some humour . There is very little sarcasim ( i think that the head mod is responsible for most ) and absolutely NO nastiness at all . this forum has a huge target audience and a wide age range . If it was "real world "friendships i dont think that you would get '300'people in a hall chatting about the hobby agreeing on every thing that was being said .

So as the magic of the WWW has brought such a variety of people together ---even though we DO have herps in common --it does not mean we will all get along . I dont have as many 'Real friends'as i have on here and i am fine with .
Agree to disagree ,,dont hate just IGNORE if you get angry at a reponse try to find the humour in it .

And 6 posts in twelve months you must be busy :lol:

 

[andynic07]

You might like to look at the thread entitled “Dont be so harsh on newbies....” started by montysrainbow. The internet” is NO an excuse for rudeness. I believe conversations should be conducted in the same manner as face to face contact. There would be far less rudeness. The moderators here a doing a good job. However, they need the assistance of everyday users to hit that little triangular report button a lot more often and sooner rather than later.

Internet forums vary in the degree of rude and insensitive individuals that utilise them. APS has had more than its share in the past but from my perspective it has improved markedly and I feel that your stated assessment of the forum in this respect is not an accurate reflection of where it is overall at the moment. It does not do justice to the many who are here to learn and who are wanting to repay the favours by sharing what they have learned that has been effective and helpful to them.

Blue

You are so right in what you are saying about people should type what they would say say face to face but in my opinion sometimes this is the problem as well. What I am saying is someone will type verbatim what they would usually say and without the facial expressions or body language and this can sometimes come across the wrong way.

 

[champagne]

the problem is some people just want to be spoon fed the information in one thread and then become an expert on the next. A lot of people give great advise but if its not what the op wants to hear they just ignore it.

 

[TNT78]

Too many armchair professors, too much testosterone, too much time.
You can never know everything in this hobby, it's a continual learning experience.
I've noticed that there is the odd newbie who argues or ignores good advice. The best response is to simply not respond!

 

[eipper]

I think both the posters, the users and the readers need a cup of concrete at times.

Its fairly simple you have a choice, read, read and heed, read and reply or ignore.

Cheers
scott

 

[Biologist]

I like that... universal sarcasim symbol. I would be using it non stop when I am cheeky to my friends. I think you expressed yourself very well.

 

[Waterrat]

A lot would change towards the better if there were no pseudonyms on forums (not only this one). A true name and true age would make posting more personal and hopefully more polite. JMO

 

[borntobnude]

A lot would change towards the better if there were no pseudonyms on forums (not only this one). A true name and true age would make posting more personal and hopefully more polite. JMO

and a true location !!!


borntobnude ---true

51 ---true

sydney's south west and not wanting to be --- true

:lol:

 

[wokka]

A lot would change towards the better if there were no pseudonyms on forums (not only this one). A true name and true age would make posting more personal and hopefully more polite. JMO

A true location also assists with giving proper care advice.

 

[treeofgreen]

What you describe is not just a problem on this forum, it’s a universal problem. From what I’ve seen, however, reactions on other categories of forums are MUCH more severe than here.

I would explain this phenomenon thusly:

1. The world is getting meaner because Criminals have usurped control of society.
(This is not Human Nature; it’s the nature of Enslaved People.)

2. The politics of Fear & Isolation are being used much more often, numbing societies and isolating non-similar individuals.

3. Speaking face-to-face is becoming scare, and it caries with it the obligation of being accountable for your actions – up to the point of being hit in the face if you offend. Online forums permit a person to hide behind a keyboard, make whatever statement they like, and evade accountability. This environment favors & encourages brutish, crass behavior – and deception.

A few days ago, I made an Aussie forum post that was several paragraphs, presented new ideas and included a link to Flick photos. (A similar post at Kingsnake.com a few weeks ago got the response of “best read on this forum in months”.) Checking my forum post, I’ve now settled into page two sediment, with no replies. I may have been too sophisticated for my audience.

(American & Australian herpers tend to use minimalistic housing setups, often plastic containers having only one hide spot & water dish. Their focus in on convenience for the Owner, and conformity of diet for the snake. In contrast, many European herpers tend to favor naturalistic setups, live feeding & a varied diet which mimic natural conditions.)

*We need a new socio-political model rewarding leadership based on merit, ability & performance, and policies which diffuse concentrated power and benefit the majority.*

Until then, hopefully in the coming days we will see an improvement in tone and content quality on this forum. Maybe we will also see more persons taking personal responsibility to give others the benefit of the doubt, and to treat others with tact, discretion & diplomacy.

“The nature of the pageant is determined by the nature of the players.”
Ancient Proverb

“If your social system rewards criminals and mocks or punishes men who are honest & good, do not expect for good men to remain being good for long.”
Ancient Proverb

1.0 Antaresia maculosa
0.1 Pantherophis guttatus (Carolina)
1.0 Elaphe schrencki

Flickr link: Flickr: Options 2010's Photostream

Spot on mate, these are the real issues. If we don't change this "bigger picture" nothing will change

Good on you European herpers for providing naturalistic enclosures! Not much makes me as sad as seeing something like a beautiful GTP in a plastic tub with pvc tube for a perch all so its "easier" for the owner.

 

[andynic07]

A lot would change towards the better if there were no pseudonyms on forums (not only this one). A true name and true age would make posting more personal and hopefully more polite. JMO

Possibly, I do find it amusing that you have this advice but still post without your name age or location.

 

[wokka]

A lot would change towards the better if there were no pseudonyms on forums (not only this one). A true name and true age would make posting more personal and hopefully more polite. JMO

Micheal, i have ammended my profile and so look forward to a little more politeness.