Jeff Hardy-any comments please?

[expansa1]

Hi jeff,
This topic was pasted on my site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AustralianFreshwaterTurtlesandFrogs/
and I was wondering if you wanted to answer it as I'm not sure where commercial licensing is at in NSW?
Regards,

Craig
Expansa1

From: "aaabbb0405" <[email protected]>
Date: Fri Feb 3, 2006 11:59 am
Subject: Question on dubious practices and lessons learnt aaabbb0405


Hi all,

We're new to keeping turtles and it's been a painful experience trying
to buy one pair.

We feel that we've done all the right things, researched the
caresheets, analysed our lifestyle and ensuring that we have the time
and equipment to house a pair of native turtles. We've even staged the
tank for more that a month and obtained the license.

Initially, we saw that pet stores (one large one and a smaller one) in
Sydney 'advertise' that they can 'get' turtles for customers.

One question that I have is, isn't it illegal for pet stores to sell
turtles in NSW? The mere transaction process is quite suspect, with
the pickup taking place somewhere other than the store premises. Can
anyone comment on this practice of advertising such services? Thank
you.

D

 

[SNKMST]

If I may reply:

I have seen this at many petshops but they arent selling for themselfs they are refering there customers to breeders which on one hand makes them look good by being able to point people towards what they are looking for and on the other hand may sell supplys exclusivly to the said breeders. This explains the sending the customer offsite to purchase the animal as it would be the location of the breeder.

The normal practice in sydney petshops I have seen is a notice board where breeders may post there details as a quiet/cheap advert to sell there animals.

Although if the post meant that they are making payment for the animal at the store and then having to go elsewhere to pick up the animal I would almost bet that somone at that pet store is the breeder adn is selling out of the store which as far as I am aware is illegal.

Didnt mean to stick my nose in just an observation.

Cheers,
Brett

 

[Rennie]

Its a very grey area, I've also seen notice boards up in stores which should be fine, but my first snake was purchased at Kellyville Pets, off a breeder who works there, but the transaction was through the till at the store and we had a little 2 hour talk at the store on how to look after them, as far as I know it was legal.
I am not sure where they draw the line.

 

[peterjohnson64]

Hi guys, I personally disagree that a notice board in a shop is legal. But I also don't think that advertising on the net is necessary legal either. I think that NPWS turn a blind eye. The rules state, basically, that you can't advertise other than through a herp club magazine. I have just had a conversation with NPWS and they agreed that the Pet Shop thing is definitely not allowed!! And Rennie, your purchase was totally illegal if it went through the till. (for the seller, not for you). They couldn't confirm either way about the internet stuff but I think they were agreeing with me without stating it bluntly. They can't say "yes you can sell over the internet" because the rules say you can't but they do know it happens. Jeff is out of theoffice this afternoon so I couldn't get to the horse, so to speak.

 

[peterescue]

on the pets shop I cannot comment and IMO its wrong.
The talk on how to keep a reptile is a good thing but they dont give it way.
They utilize a loophole in the system.
I have no idea how notice boards work in the scheme of things.
On advertising on the net, well, Herptrader is in Vic and operates under Vic law. APS, ARK, ATR etc are membership based and are basically online herpclubs. Similarly you need to sign up to be part Of AHC so again a club of sorts.

 

[Allan]

Yes, you are right Peter, loopholes are there and will be used until NPWS get a working system in re. herp sales in order.
Kellyville pets used to give "courses" in how to look after maculosas. $450 dollars later and yes, you did get a hatchling thrown in for that price. Apart from a breeder charging an extra $300 for advice on how to look after a $150 snake, the NPWS had little to say about this practice when they were asked to explain.

 

[peterjohnson64]

When I spoke to NPWS they said that ALL the kellyville pets were sold through a breeder that did classes at the store and had nothing to do with the shop. Rennie's post above may raise Jeff's eyebrows I think.

 

[JeffHardy]

I can't be in the office at all times. So sorry to take so long to respond.

The NSW government ban on the display and trade of reptiles through pet shops is based on a desire to prevent impulse purchases by persons who go to a pet shop or market to buy something else. For the same reason, reptiles are not permitted to be advertised for sale in the general press in this State.

The pet shop restriction is a political rather than bureaucratic ban and how long the ban might be maintained is out of the hands of DEC. While the pet industry and the Native Animal Keeper's Consultative Committee support lifting the ban, the herp societies and animal welfare organisations in the community continue to oppose any change to the status quo. DEC is in the middle. If the ban is maintained we have no alternative than to refer people enquiring about availability to the herp societies, the internet and interstate traders and to encourage the pet industry to support the pet keepers by ensuring the availability of best practice equipment and providing expert advice if they can without having access to reptiles on the pet shops' trading floor. We are also bound to pursue specific information relating to reptiles illegally being on pet shop premises. We know there are many instances of illegal under-counter trade, but we can only pursue specific issues and prioritise efforts.

If the open trade pet shop ban is lifted, there will still be significant animal welfare concerns that government will want addressed. DEC will not support open slather with an unlimited number of retail outlets and the species variety will be restricted. Rather, we would be advocating to government a limited number of high-cost licences and limited species availability. In other words , the industry will have to pay for additional and improved compliance efforts to meet community expectations with respect to conservation and animal welfare.

 

[saikrett]

i hope that they dont allow reptiles to be sold in petshops, but i think that petshops directing people to breeders isnt such a bad idea. It stops the impulse buyers and might teach them a thing or two.

 

[Bombie]

reptiles

they changed the laws up here in qld. a couple of years ago to allow pet shops sell reptiles to the general public, however they are restricted to certain species, spotties, childrens, beardies, blueys, some turtles and thats about it.
i dont have a problem with pet shops selling them, but i do have a problem with every pet shop getting into them as they think it is a quick buck!!!
personally i dont buy from pet shops as a rule, if for no other reason than the prices are ridiculously high most of the time! the one time i did buy from a pet shop i paid a high price for what i was assured were a breeding pair of beardies, only to find out later they were two boys! won't be doing that again in a hurry.
and that is the main reason i think herp clubs and internet forums like this are so important, we really need to reach the biggest market we can to make people more aware of the reptile hobby!
anyway, thats me done,
bombie

 

[foxysnake]

I think some geckos must also be allowed to be sold at petshops in QLD as well now, as I spotted a few at the petshop recently. Also cunningham skinks and central netteds are allowed too.

 

[jonno]

Hey,

I was the same as Rennie, i purchased a childreni from Kellyville pets, for a ridiculas amount of money i might add. :shock:

I was under the information at the time that pet stores were not able to sell reptiles in NSW.

When i asked the staff member doing the talks on the care of these animals it was stated that they had special permission to sell reptiles through the as they were selling in a package that provided all the stuff that a person/reptile needs, as well as providing the course as to how to care for them.

I dont know if this is true or not but i do know that they have done this many many times.

Jonno

 

[JeffHardy]

Jonno, Yes Kellyville and a number of other pet shops have been allowed to arrange for breeders to supply reptiles for sale in a "housing and husbandry package" that had to include a compulsory basic training program for the new keeper.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I can say, from my experience in WA as a dealer, that allowing pet shops to become involved in the trade in reptiles is a disaster. The number of bulls**t artists that have become involved in the trade is awful - to be a dealer and make reasonable money you have to sell customers a heap of stuff they don't actually need, so the misinformation just continues, especially with novice herp keepers who are vulnerable. CALM refuses to acknowledge that they have created a monster - why would they, they are reaping huge financial gains from the system they have installed, the most expensive and least flexible system in Oz. They have dealers who are takers and keepers, the movements of reptiles between licences is virtually impossible to police, and very few of the dealers have any real experience with reptiles - it's a dogs breakfast. CALM doesn't have the resources to manage the system properly, and it's personnel are poorly informed about reptile management and husbandry. On one occasion a bluetongue they had for tender was a species not permitted to be kept in WA, and following that, a number of pythons sold by tender to dealers were infested with mites...

Keep dealers out of the system AS LONG AS POSSIBLE Jeff, I know you will be under pressure from PIAA (and have been for a while...) but the way it is now is the way it it will operate best for EVERYBODY (except the dealers with the profit motive...)

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I wish people would get over their hang up over people profiteering from wildlife.
The only time this should be of issue is the money became a direct trade off to poor animal care. To blanket ban people in participating in this practice because of a few who might abuse it tells me that this is just an easy way out for the authorities because of lack of money, priority, or resources to police it stringently.
We as a human race have been selling animals throughout our history. We sell fish, birds, cats, dogs etc and generally speaking this is just accepted.
As long as the animal welfare is protected and it is a sustainable resource in a conservation point of view, who cares what money is made? People morals have little bearing on the animal itself.
As for impulse buying I have always believed that you should have to sit a basic test on reptile maintenance before you are issued with a license to purchase.
This process alone will weed out many of the impulse buyers and people who do not have a basic understanding of what it takes to keep reptiles correctly.
Also the exempt species list is a bit of a joke as well. How would Parks and Wildlife know if little Johnny who legally takes home a eastern long neck turtle is really looking after it properly? I have on a few occasions seen turtles sitting in a gold fish bowl of its own urine.
Cheers Dave

 

[alexr]

As for impulse buying I have always believed that you should have to sit a basic test on reptile maintenance before you are issued with a license to purchase.

I think thats a great idea!

 

[Reptile City]

Hi
I reckond the dealers should be totaly teasted in the species they are allowed to keep & sell!
In S.A. NPWL have given out SPECILEST DEARLERS PERMITS to most pet shops without much thought at all.
They are clamping down on this though!
I have found that pet shops that sell Cats, Dogs, Birds, Fish & Reptiles, have no real knowlage on most pets they sell. (with the exception of 1 or 2 pet shops in Australia)
Its bad for the whole reptile industry!
In the two years "Reptile City" has been open, we have sold over 600 reptiles.
Most of them come back for regular check ups & just to show how well there reptile is going.
But the shocking stories I hear all the time about dealers selling wrong products, food sizes, feeding, heating the list go`s on it really anoys me alot!
The amount of budding reptile enthusiest out there that has a bad experiance from these dodgy dearlers must be huge!
I wonder how many of them pass on the bad experiance they have had to other potential keepers & have a negitive effect on the whole reptile industry.

That my winge, :cry:
Jason Lapins

 

[Allan]

Jonno, Yes Kellyville and a number of other pet shops have been allowed to arrange for breeders to supply reptiles for sale in a "housing and husbandry package" that had to include a compulsory basic training program for the new keeper.

Any responsible breeder should provide this information for free. It is not rocket science to look after a maculosa or a childrenii.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Don't get me wrong Dave, I don't have any concern about the prices charged by dealers for their animals - that's a contract between the dealer and the purchaser, whatever the price may be. Like you, I have concern for the welfare of the animals though, and in WA, you would have to admit that the selling of (mostly) wild-caught animals to novice keepers, by dealers who in many instances have no experience either, is fraught with problems. You would probably agree that simply being able to identify 42 species from photos is hardly a test of technical expertise for a would-be dealer.

I and several colleagues worked with CALM for several years to get a system up and running in WA. In some respects the policies as applied are bizarre, for example the one clutch, one species per year policy. A kid who breeds a couple of clutches of beardies has to pay CALM $1000 to unload the second clutch legitimately (or GIVE them to a dealer...go figure). Tell me how that encourages captive breeding. Not so bad for the top-end animals you principally deal with, where your costs are fairly easily covered by the value of the animals you take or breed.

There are some serious anomalies in the regs in WA, and the way policy is applied. We were assured of a working review after 12 months of the system's operation, this hasn't happened, and doesn't look like happening. The chance of a species list review is also slim at the moment, my feeling is that CALM is unlikely to initiate any move for change itself, either in the way policy is applied, or to expand the species list, so pressure will once again have to come from outside the organisation, and probably be politically well targetted too. Who has the energy for that???

 

[Rennie]

I would like to note that although my Childreni was expensive at Kellyville, they are one of the few pet shops that seem to take very good care of their animals, I know a person who worked there who was a vet in training so knew quite well how to look after the animals in their care. Also the 2hr talk was very informative, covering everything from heating, cleaning, feeding, breeding, etc. and a copy of Care of Australian Reptiles in Captivity was a part of the package for those of us who need to double check some details now and then. It definately was not an "impulse buying" deal, we had to book and pay a deposit in advance.