Pre-Gravid Feeding ?#!*

[TopQualityPythons]

I am wondering about my Jungle Carpet Python (JCP). She has been off feed for over two months (my winter, here in the UK) & was mated several times (ten+) with my male JCP both before & during this period. She swelled up quite a lot (several people noticed/commented on this, even a non herper) & this swelling has now subsided. Because she has yet to pre-lay slough, I did try my male in with her again about two weeks ago whilst she was still swollen, but there was no sign of interest, so I removed him within hours. My heating is back up to the regular summer time regime as is my lighting regime.All the boys are feeding again so I offered her some 'small' weaner rats (ordinarilly she takes two fully grown rats each feed), just on the off chance that she might take one or two, but she ravenously ate five.
I have read in 'The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons & Boas' Ross & Marzec, that some females will eat during follicle development & ovulation. However this is extremely rare. I also have two West Papuan (Irian Jaya) type Carpet Python (WPCP) females, who were also bred with a pair of WPCP males. Neither of these girls accepted food during their gestation, but both did so shortly after oviposition as I removed the eggs for artificial incubation. I am considering the fact that my JCP female, may possibly have reabsorbed her follicles & is perhaps returning to a normal feeding regime.
What do you guys think is happening here? Is this (eating whilst pre-gravid) more common place than my research would suggest? I also have read 'Pythons of the World pt1' Barker & Barker & also 'The More Complete Chondro' Maxwell (a closely related Morelia species), but unfortunately these did not shed any extra light onto my situation.
I thought I'd ask some for some True Blue Aussie advice with regards my Pythons from 'A Land Down Under'. In other words, 'Who Better to Ask'.
Check out my freewebsite & see my current collection of Pythons & previous Herping history at...
http://www.freewebs.com/topqualitypythons
Ps. My JCP female has now gone completely grey & is now obviously entering a slough period. This would ordinarilly suggest that she is in Pre-Lay shed territory, but having eaten ... I am still unsure (?) of her condition. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Slateman]

All I can say is that my females stop eating at this time and start feeding straight away after I remove the eggs . I am sure that some other people here will have different experiences.
I would understand small feed but in your case we are talking about lot of food.

Are you sure that this female is gravid? Have a look if she is still swelled after shed, Maybe there can be different reason for it.

 

[ad]

Time and patience is what you need, no-one can give you a definitive answer.
And at this stage there isnt much you can do anyway.
I had a morelia eat while gravid last season so it can and does happen - I have never had it for aspidites or antaresia.
Cheers
Adam

 

[TopQualityPythons]

Patience Grasshopper

Yes, I see your point. I'm a nervous python dad, so worry is my middle name. Of course waiting another couple of weeks will do no harm & should give me a slightly different/fresher viewpoint from which to draw a conclusion. As for it being a lot of food, well these weaners were on the small side & all five probably only amounted to one fully grown adult rat. I have also read that several smaller items could be easier to digest. In my opinion they would at least create less of a problem when they were passing through the gut & by the follicles/eggs (whichever) on their journey towards the other end. I was mainly looking for reassurance from other Morelia breeders. I'm quite impatient & hope that when it all happens again next year, that I'll be somewhat better prepared mentally for the whole process. I guess that I wasn't as prepared for there to be such a gap between oviposition of my West Papuans & my Jungles. After all, they are all kept under pretty much standard & uniform conditions. But as we all know, mother nature knows best & they've been doing this since...
...well for a very very long time. She was my high hope for breeding this year, unlike the WPCPs which I thought would take another year of conditioning. Although that said, the youngest WPCP only laid seven eggs of which one was a slug & another five were infertile. That was the first time I'd smelt rotten eggs & it's definately unmistakeable. Kind of like really rotten trainers (sports shoes), that's why I use odour-eaters. Looking back to the end of last summer into the autumn, I could have fed the JCP female more heavilly, but at the time it felt like that was exactly what I was doing. Especially as she continued to eat well into the winter period until sometime in January.
Thanks for your advice, I shall post news of my situation as things get clearer or when something occurs. I shall also check out your website & stick it in my bookmarked favourites list. Bonza mates, Troy (TopQualityPythons)

 

[Slateman]

All the best Troy.
I keep my fingers cross for you.

 

[TopQualityPythons]

Picture Perfect.




Here's my girl post shed. She still looks quite chunky considering that she's only had those five weaner rats since mid-january. I gave her a nest box yesterday & she took to it immediately & hasn't come out yet. I realise that this in itself isn't a definative sign of gravidity, but again I'd say it's promising. She was mated multiple times & swelled up alot soon afterwards. Because my vivarium heating is off overnight, it appears from the experience wth my West Papuans that this lack of night heat can retard the development of gestation somewhat.
Will post pics of my West Papuans hatching in the very near future I hope, Eggs dimpling, so should be days not weeks. Troy

 

[Just_Joshin]

Could the swelling you noticed just be pronounce ovarian swelling as she has come into season and her not actually being gravid??? Would this maybe explain why she is still accepting food?

 

[Southside Morelia]

Good luck, I'm sure after your last post all is ready to go!
Just visited your site, JF-1 a cracker, lovely snake!
What happened to the napster? She's awesome, makes me soo jealous that you guys take these for granted, I only wish we could!
Is the non-existant smile on you on your home page because your nervous of her constricting your head? lol
Good to hear from you poms anyway!
Cheers...
Scott.
PS. nice touch with the pointer, I played around for a bit, small things amuse small minds hey!!

 

[TopQualityPythons]

Happy Burmese memories

OK. now this is the second time I've written this post & unfortunately I shall not be putting as much effort in to this version. (I lost the first draft by incompetance! & after it took nearly an hour to write.)
That's what I thought. 1st swell (largest) follicle development. 2nd swell (Much smaller) ovulation. Then she ate the weaners. Then she sloughed. Now she's taken up residence in the nest box which I've given her.
Next, J-F1. Thanks, Yes she sure is most amazing for my first Jungle. Just what I'd hoped for, but more stunning than I could have imagined.
This brings me onto the Napster. She was my first ever pet snake & she will always hold a special place in my heart. I could have traded the two boas in for a male burmese, but my thoughts were for all the hobbyists who would purchase one of my hatchlings, only to realise several years later that these were quite a 'Large' commitment. I gave her everything she needed. Enlarged her vivarium every few years & she seemed to enjoy the company of both humans & the other Burm' female. Don't get me wrong I think Burm's make a great pet snake due to their slow & steady attitude, calm demeanour & their size makes them robust & hardy as pets for even the novice herper. I was young & hoped to be better set-up in the future for both myself & my animals, but things don't always come together as we might expect. I needed to further my herping experiences with snakes that I could be confident people would not regret taking on. Carpets suited that outlook.
She was never aggressive & so laid back she just hung there, so no neck constriction problems. I knew almost telepathically when she wanted to be let out to roam my room. I'd just open the door & out she'd crawl. If I'd waited long enough, she'd probably have found her own way back, but even with my assistance, she was always compliant. I miss her each & every day & my heart broke in two the day she left for new horizons (& a male Burm boyfriend, or so I was told). Her legacy is to be my success in Python breeding in the future & I shall not disappoint her.
Lastly nice to know you liked my flaming cursor. The devil is in the detail.

 

[Reptilian]

Ohhh yeah, nice snakes mate, and good luck...

 

[Earthling]

I feel this could assist you.
http://www.southernxreptiles.com/RA%20BreedingPythons4.htm
4th paragraph on.

 

[cmclean]

Troy, that was a lovely story of your snake. Very touching.
The jungle is superb, you have done very well with her, she is a beautiful specimen.
I have to agree with Womanator, perhaps the swelling was ovarian swelling. She could have absorbed the eggs, I have seen this done in large animal species, horses etc. I hope she is gravid and you produce more beautiful hatchies.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Troy, that was a lovely story of your snake. Very touching.
The jungle is superb, you have done very well with her, she is a beautiful specimen.
I have to agree with Womanator, perhaps the swelling was ovarian swelling. She could have absorbed the eggs, I have seen this done in large animal species, horses etc. I hope she is gravid and you produce more beautiful hatchies.

I agree, good story, it's funny the bigger the animal the more emotionally attached to it you get!

 

[Slateman]

Please let us know the result.

 

[Glimmerman]

I have had a female Tully JCP and a Anteresia feed whilst being gravid. The Tully produced 8 perfect eggs & the Anteresia 11 eggs.

Have you still been putting the male with the female during this time? I hope you have, just in case her body is playing tricks as mentioned previously.

On the down side.... If you did miss and she is not gravid, make sure you document all events. This way you can re read them next season to refresh your memory and learn from this experience. After all this acruement of knowledge, I think, is what reptile keeping is all about.

Best of Luck.

Cheers

 

[paul4]

I have found that nearly all of my bhp's and womas will accept small meals whilst gravid and 50% of the carpets would also accept food in this condition so i wouldnt freak out.
A good way to tell is observation so if you place the male in the cage during the mating process and they both sleep or hide in the hide box provided and appear quite happy together and once the female appears to be gravid i have found that she tends to kick the male out of the hide and he just knows he is not wanted anymore. The male tends to sleep out in the open while the female takes refuge in the hide and it is as if the female releases some sort of scent or pheromone letting the male know the party's over.
This is purely my observation

Paul

 

[TopQualityPythons]

slowly but surely

Thanks Paul, Yes indeed, I think I mentioned some time back that the male had lost interest & the female was no longer pleased to have him in with her. That was before she ate & shed. Now she's taken up residence inside a nest box & hasn't come out for days, so I'm still hopefull. I'm concentrating on my West Papuan eggs at the moment. They're dimpling alot & I believe they should hatch in the very near future. This has taken my mind off the Jungle female & reduced my stress levels.Talking to everyone on this thread has definately helped to put my mind at rest. "A problem shared is a problem halved" as they say. I only had years of accumulated knowledge absorbed by reading alot of books, internet articles & journals. This is the first time I've personally bred anything from start to finish, having only previously seen the laying, incubation & hatching processes of cornsnake eggs which I hatched in 2005&2006.

 

[paul4]

Sounds like everything is on track for you so far.
I would just make sure you have room in the incubator now.
Good luck with your incubation and perhaps you can post us some pics of your little ones once they hatch out.
Thanks mate
Paul