R.I.P. Ivory

[Jeannine]

A little while ago i went to feed and give her some water and found her dead

she had been sleeping but every few days i would get her out and give her some water via an eyedropper and a feed of either insects or vegies, she would eagerly take the water and food she was also opening her bowels every few days and only went 2 nights ago

the last few feeds i noticed some blood when she had eaten, so i had a look but only once could i see a little blood around the area of her 'gum' near her back teeth, nothing seemed to be worrying her though :?

earlier this morning i noticed her yawning so i decided to feed her when we came back from town with fresh crickets etc

i went to take her out a little while ago and her mouth was fused shut with dry blood and sand from the bottom of the tank, this i was cleaning up only to realise she was dead :cry:

i have done nothing wrong that i can work out, her enclosure's hot end varied between 28 to 32 (this depended on if the heater was on or not) but i did add a small 2 watt head pad under the sand where she loved to sleep, if i put her anywhere else in the tank she would move to the warm spot, this was only a tiny heat pad that let out a very small heat source?

over head she had a red light and a ceramic one, was putting her basking light back in tomorrow

what have i done wrong?

i am kicking myself in case i have caused her suffering

i am going to miss my little girl, she gave us so much love and affection, who says reptiles cant love

 

[byron_moses]

sorry for ur loss

 

[lloydy]

Sorry for your loss also..

What was she?

 

[Jeannine]

thank you

ivory was a gorgeous bearded dragon

this was her a few nights ago after having had something to eat and drink

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/chatten/DSCF7238.jpg

 

[wayneobro]

Hey Jeannine ;( I'm so so sorry , how old was she ?

 

[Serpentess]

Sorry for your loss. Is it still early enough to take her to the vets for a necropsy?

 

[daniel1234]

Sorry for your loss.
Blood around gums? Hmm.
Giving her water with eye dropper? So you were having problems with her for a while then?

 

[Jeannine]

wayne i got her around xmas time

no chantelle, she has been put to rest in the garden and unfortunately none of the vets here have much knowledge on dragons, so we have to plod our way thru things

its pathetic really considering where we live (broken hill) that we have no qualified reptile vet here to even deal with the natives, only ones that might be able to help if needed would have been the bloke who does the reptiles for the local wildlife rescue service

i am ANGRY at myself that i have somehow caused this to her and it makes me sick to the stomach that in some way she has suffered before passing

she did die quickly because she was moving earlier on, she was yawning which made me grab some fresh crickets so i could feed her and give her some water to keep her hydrated

 

[Jeannine]

hi daniel

no no problems, she was brumating, i used the eye dropper to give her some water, i would drop a small bit on the front of her mouth and she would stick out her tongue and start lapping up the water, she would drink a couple of droppers full of water before indicating she had had enough

the first time i noticed the blood i cleaned up the mouth area with a damp cotton bub, had a look but could only see a little bit which 'appeared' to be coming from the area at the back near her teeth? i thought maybe she had either bitten her gum or perhaps part of the cricket had scratched her so kept an eye on it, it never bled a lot and i was still a little convinced it may have been from her food

last time she ate she had some dandelion and some grated carrot, she happily ate this as carrots were her favorite food and there was NO bleeding, i checked her a few hours later still no bleeding, checked the next day and still no bleeding, no bleeding last night and all appeared ok earlier when i seen her yawning and stretching her mouth

yet a few hours later her mouth was fused shut with dry blood and sand had stuck on the outside of her mouth, i wonder if because she couldnt open her mouth she couldnt breath? is that at all possible?

i am starting to wonder if it was the heat pad? even though it was such a small wattage maybe it got her insides too hot? oh god i hope not

 

[Lollypop]

Hey I'm so sorry for your loss, never nice to lose one:cry::cry:

Reading thru, & this is pure observation from what you've described, if she was brumating, to start with u should never have disturbed her.
When they brumate, you provide them with clean water, & if they do wake up, just put out some salad so they have the choice if they want to eat anything - NO live feeders are given until you're sure they're awake for good.
Secondly, for a central, your enclosure was way too cold. Now I don't know if you'd cut down your heat in order for her to brumate, so that would've been fine had u not fed or watered her.
BUT, to feed a beardie under those basking temps, she had no way of digesting them properly. Unfortunately. The temps need to be 38-44C at the basking spot, with them physically sitting under that most of the day, with a cool temp of 28C approx.
She doesn't look well in the pick.
With reptiles it's unfortunate that sometimes you have to learn from your mistakes in order to get it right, but it works that way sometimes.
It in no way makes the loss any easier. Sorry once again. RIP Ivory

 

[Chris1]

really sorry for your loss Jeannine, its the worst feeling losing a beardy and not knowing why.

i have to agree with Lollypop on no live feeders during brumation, ive heard lots of people give them a drink from time to time tho,..

the theory behind the no live feeders is that they rot in their tummies at low temps and make them sick, but that doesnt explain the blood,...could she have eaten something sharp that cut her mouth and peirced her insides?

hope ur ok.

Chris.

 

[Jeannine]

thank you lollypop and it is possible i have done things wrong, didn't realise you shouldn't feed them like that, i understood for their first brumation not to let them go into too deep a sleep and to keep their fluids etc up, she wouldn't drink from a bowl anyway

i was going to get a new basking lamp as i dropped her's when i moved something the other day, i forgot it today and was going to grab one in the morning, i thought the temps were ok considering she was doing nothing but sleeping

i know we all learn from our mistake's and im angry at myself that my mistake may have cost her her life and that she may have suffered

chris thank you too, the first time i found dry blood was the day after a feed, i had no idea then where it was coming from, so i moistened her mouth and cleaned it up with a damp cotton bud and when giving her a feed later i noticed there was fresh blood again, so using a cotton bud i wiped the area it appeared to be coming from and noticed a faint bleeding from an area to the back of her mouth near her teeth on what would be our 'gum'? but it was only a little bit and i thought maybe she had cut it when eating the cricket on a sharp piece of it like a leg etc but wasn't sure and there wasn't a lot of it

the next time i went to feed her i noticed dry blood again and cleaned it up, this time i fed her some carrot and dandelion and there was no blood at all from her

as i said this morning i seen her yawning so whatever happened happened very quickly

i am curious though and just realised but i have noticed she was placing her nose against the cord to the heat mat, i don't think there was any heat coming off the cord but is it possible she may have bitten it or something? ive looked at it but cant see any damage or such

just trying to process what i have done wrong so i will NEVER EVER do it again to another creature

im sure i will get there chris and thank you again for your concern

 

[JAS101]

sorry for your loss just so u know next time , beardies and heat pads/mats dont mix . beardies need heat from above and not from below, i did read somewere that they cant sence the heat from there tummys [ underneath them] ? can anyone confirm or is it a myth?

 

[Jeannine]

thank you zoojas

she had heat from above as well, ceramic heat lamp and a red one

ive heard the same thing about heat mats/pads etc but i thought it would be safe as it was only a small 2 watt (bought to breed crickets originally) and it was under about 2" of sand, i was using it because i had been feeding her so didnt want her to get compacted so thought a 'little' heat might help

guess it didnt

 

[Chris1]

zoojas, theyre not so heat sensitive from underneath and the main danger of heat mats/rocks is mostly burns.
(which i believe is true for most reptiles as ive seen them basking on the sides of roads that i cant comfortably walk across,...)
(my free ranging beardies get heat from sitting on microwaved heat bags and theyre fine)

Jeannine, it could be anything, an infection from the cut possibly leading to blood poisoning,...its not necessarily your fault, beardies can just not wake up from brumation even if theyve been undisturbed.
its very unlikely that an autopsy would have given u a conclusive result anyway.

beardies dont need to brumate, (im tp scared to let mine) so if you get another one and arent comfortable going thru the brumation process again, just keep him or her awake.

 

[Jeannine]

thank you chris

i wasn't comfy letting her go thru the first one, but she put herself into it and nothing i attempted would stop her going off to sleep, the instinct must of been strong within her

hubby has suggested to me to look around, not to replace our little girl but to fill the hole that is inside of me, our 'children, all of them' are my babies who i give all my love to cause i cant give it to my children or grand children so my babies are spoilt rotten

microwave heat bags are a great suggestion i will try to remember that for the future

i think i shall go for a while and have some time to myself to think and remember my little girl

ohhhhhh also lately i have gone back to burning oils because of some health issues and i am using ones for relaxation etc, they are next to my computer and the lizard tanks are on the other side of the room now i just had a thought does anyone know if the 'burning oils' could have had an affect on her? if its even remotely possible i will have to move them out of the room or toss them totally

 

[ezekiel86]

Sorry for your loss..
RIP lil Fella !

 

[n1cky83]

I feel for you I have found brumation a worry, I really dont like it I prefer to know how they are going when they are alert every day,

Take care and dont beat your self up too much

 

[pythrulz]

sorry for your loss too jeannine dont have any lizards yet but recently cuddled a beardie seem placid lovable creatures

 

[PhilK]

First of all sorry for your loss, it is always tough to lose a pet. There is some stuff here that doesn't sound right to me, so I hope you don't mind me speaking my mind? Hopefully what I have to say will help you with your next lizard.

...no bleeding last night and all appeared ok earlier when i seen her yawning and stretching her mouth

To me that doesn't seem right, and it certainly isn't an indication of being hungry.. sounds like she had mouth rot or something to me.. very possible with the cold temps you had in there.. yawning/stretching the mouth is not normal behaviour apart from very sporadically.

i wonder if because she couldnt open her mouth she couldnt breath? is that at all possible?

No that isn't possible, they breath through their nostrils, not through their mouths.. perhaps her nostrils were clogged up too?

i am starting to wonder if it was the heat pad? even though it was such a small wattage maybe it got her insides too hot? oh god i hope not

Also not likely so don't worry there.

In the future if you see blood in a pets mouth seek help.. it generally isn't normal. She certainly didn't look very healthy in that photo.. I would say the temps you had her on were probably causative, but we all must learn by our mistakes.. I lost two sand swimmers through my own stupid fault and it kills you, so I know how you feel. Remember also brumation isn't needed, so maybe next time don't bother with it?