Small BHP

[Digitaliss]

My female BHP hatched in January this year (2011) and we received her in June (2011). Since we received her we have had problem after problem with her. She went to the vet shortly after we received her and we were advised that she was small and skinny for her age. We has blood test done and we found that she had too many white blood cells. She spent weeks on antibiotics but slowly got better. She also had a very dirty vent which cleared up during her first shed, which did not happen until months after we had her.
Over this time we were slowly increasing her feeds from the one Pinky rat per fortnight she was getting from her breeder to one every five days, looking to up her food size after this.

After her first and only shed with us, which was incredibly bad, we began to feed her a Hopper mouse or 10day quail every five days. A few weeks after we began this, she had a prolapse. This was self rectified by the snake, less than a minute after it was noticed, but we stopped feeding her to let the muscles strengthen back up. She has had one Hopper Mouse again on Sunday (approx 4 weeks after prolapse) and we are hoping that we have no more problems with her prolapse.

My question is, what size are everyone's yearling BHP's so I can get an estimate of how small she is compared to what she should be (I am under the impression she is dramatically undersize). Are there any tips on getting her up to the size she should be, I do not want to risk feeding her too much in case she prolapses again.

I just feel that she has been a problem right from the beginning and I'm going to be honest, she has deterred me from snakes a little, to the point that I would like to sell her, but my conscience has kept me from this due to her seemingly sickly nature, I just cant pass her problems on to someone else.

 

[Kimberlyann]

The person that sold her to you should not have sold her if she was not well. I bought some babies that where underfed to keep them small and i had trouble's with 2 of them and still do somtime's i have a brother and sister jungle python and one is half the size of the other.. Sorry i have no advice for you as i've never been in your situation but i wish you all the best for this little one such a terrible story

 

[DeadCricket]

Don't give up! And don't let this deter you from keeping reptiles. Not every experience will be the same and rearing the runt can be quite rewarding.

You could try changing foods to put on some condition. Quail, whilst it doesn't make a good staple diet, is great for trouble feeders and will help put on some condition. You could possibly try using a syringe to inject a calcium/multi vitamin into the food item before you feed just to help a bit more. Keep your temps good and I wouldn't worry too much about the length of your snake. Each grows at its own rate. I also have 2 young jungles, one significantly smaller than the other but he isn't too thin and seems healthy so I'm not worried, he will grow when he is ready.

If you do find that caring for your snake is too much for you, there is no shame in handing it over to an experienced keeper to give it the best shot at health. I'm sure there are others out there like me that find this process rewarding. I would certainly be talking to the breeder about getting a healthy hatchie for free. You did buy this one on the belief it was healthy

 

[waruikazi]

Who's to say it was not well before it was purchased?

The person that sold her to you should not have sold her if she was not well. I bought some babies that where underfed to keep them small and i had trouble's with 2 of them and still do somtime's i have a brother and sister jungle python and one is half the size of the other.. Sorry i have no advice for you as i've never been in your situation but i wish you all the best for this little one such a terrible story

 

[DeadCricket]

I would say that with a problem like white cell count, no one knew it was unhealthy until the vet trip. Certainly the breeders I have met would rather know about an unhealthy animal

 

[Digitaliss]

Who's to say it was not well before it was purchased?

She went to the vet within two weeks of arriving here and was put on antibiotics. We did not have other reptiles in the house for her to catch anything from, though who knows what she was transported with on the flight to us. The initial illness she was treated for could have been something she caught during transport. The vet was happy with our husbandry and all her temps etc. To the breeders credit the offer was made to pay for the medicine she needed, as she was unaware that the snake had further problems other than being a slow feeder.

I am not saying that this is anyone's fault and I am not here to figure out who I should blame. What I want is help with how to progress forward with her, rather than being in the stale mate that we are in with her.

I would say that with a problem like white cell count, no one knew it was unhealthy until the vet trip. Certainly the breeders I have met would rather know about an unhealthy animal

She had no idea and did offer to pay for the medicine.

Don't give up! And don't let this deter you from keeping reptiles. Not every experience will be the same and rearing the runt can be quite rewarding.

You could try changing foods to put on some condition. Quail, whilst it doesn't make a good staple diet, is great for trouble feeders and will help put on some condition. You could possibly try using a syringe to inject a calcium/multi vitamin into the food item before you feed just to help a bit more. Keep your temps good and I wouldn't worry too much about the length of your snake. Each grows at its own rate. I also have 2 young jungles, one significantly smaller than the other but he isn't too thin and seems healthy so I'm not worried, he will grow when he is ready.

If you do find that caring for your snake is too much for you, there is no shame in handing it over to an experienced keeper to give it the best shot at health. I'm sure there are others out there like me that find this process rewarding. I would certainly be talking to the breeder about getting a healthy hatchie for free. You did buy this one on the belief it was healthy

Thank you for your kind and supporting words. I get the feeling that she is going to be a handful until we get her on the right track. Her prolapse really made me take a step back, as I thought she was on the road to recovery.

Is there a specific brand that you would recommend me to use if I were to look at injecting her food with cal and vit? Have you done with with your snakes and has it worked well?

 

[waruikazi]

That was the point that i was making Digitalis. Experts on the forum are very quick to blame the breeder and naming and shaming generally follows and it is often not deserved.

She went to the vet within two weeks of arriving here and was put on antibiotics. We did not have other reptiles in the house for her to catch anything from, though who knows what she was transported with on the flight to us. The initial illness she was treated for could have been something she caught during transport. The vet was happy with our husbandry and all her temps etc. To the breeders credit the offer was made to pay for the medicine she needed, as she was unaware that the snake had further problems other than being a slow feeder.

I am not saying that this is anyone's fault and I am not here to figure out who I should blame. What I want is help with how to progress forward with her, rather than being in the stale mate that we are in with her.




She had no idea and did offer to pay for the medicine.

 

[Digitaliss]

That was the point that i was making Digitalis. Experts on the forum are very quick to blame the breeder and naming and shaming generally follows and it is often not deserved.

I too have noted this and have been careful not to mention the breeder, not even were they are from. I have got no problem with the breeder and they were wonderful to deal with. Some times its just the luck of the draw.

 

[snakerelocation]

prolapse can be caused by feeding food items that are to large for the snake, maybe try feeding very small meals alot more often, rats and mice without hair/fur are better to condition a snake as there is no valuse in the hair/fur, (same goes for quail, but they do seem to condition them better) any vitamin/calcium added is better than none at all, but again very small dosses.
sometimes having a problem snake can be a good thing in the way that you learn alot more about these amazing creatures and have a stronger bond with them, unfortunately tho there are many snakes that get left to long without help, as a snake catcher / relocator we see with many of the sick snakes what can happen when there left with no help, and it can be quiet devistating.
But you are on the right track, keep on it and you will be greatly rewarded

 

[Digitaliss]

prolapse can be caused by feeding food items that are to large for the snake, maybe try feeding very small meals alot more often, rats and mice without hair/fur are better to condition a snake as there is no valuse in the hair/fur, (same goes for quail, but they do seem to condition them better) any vitamin/calcium added is better than none at all, but again very small dosses.
sometimes having a problem snake can be a good thing in the way that you learn alot more about these amazing creatures and have a stronger bond with them, unfortunately tho there are many snakes that get left to long without help, as a snake catcher / relocator we see with many of the sick snakes what can happen when there left with no help, and it can be quiet devistating.
But you are on the right track, keep on it and you will be greatly rewarded

That was my concern with the prolapse, but I don't think the food was all that big for her, especially considering what some people feed. The food item also was not giving her much of a feed lump once it has passed her neck, but then I could be very wrong.
I had thought to feed multiple smaller items in a sitting, but was unsure of the correct amount to give her, especially after watching a video of a night tiger almost inhale about 8 pinkies in a sitting.

If she gets more than I can handle, I will not hesitate in getting her further help, as I do not want to see her deteriorate.

Thank you for your support

 

[3kidsandasnake]

To answer your question about sizes, my BHP girl is one year and one month old, is probably about 160 cm long and to put the tape measure around the thickest part of her tummy, she is 15 cm, hope that helps with sizing, sorry can't help with another questions though, I have been extremely lucky and have 4 healthy pythons. Good luck!!

 

[DeadCricket]

Some 'ruffage' is good for digestion. Animals young enough to lack fur have next to no nutritional value.

That's great news that the breeder is working with you! Props to the breeder!

Reptical supplements are very popular and easy to get your hands on. As mentioned, use small amounts as too much can be detremential to your reptiles health.

I would aim for quail to put on some size, also snakes seem to find quail irresistable. I normally use quail as my first feed for new snakes just to get them started and they have never been refused even on the first night home.

Mix a little bit of repcal in with some water. Maybe 20-40ml and inject into the stomach of the quail. This will also help with hydration. If you're feeding your snake weekly, maybe every 3rd or 4th feed you could try this.

Condition is much more important than size. Obviously the vets advice is the best advice to follow as they have done the training!

 

[waruikazi]

Some 'ruffage' is good for digestion. Animals young enough to lack fur have next to no nutritional value.

That is an absolute fallacy, the only thing that pink food items have significantly less of is calcium. Everything esle is either higher or pretty well equal.

 

[DeadCricket]

I tend to 'gutload' the small amount of rats I keep and calcium is certainly important.

Thanks for clearing that up for me though, I have some hatchies that I moved onto fuzzies as quickly as possible for nutritional value so I have a few pinkys in the freezer going to waste. Might pop them in the next couple of feeds just to move them on

Waruikazi, is there a nutritional study done for rodents? If so could you point me in the direction of a good one? There is a lot of conflicting info out there and its hard to sift through at times

 

[solar 17]

IMO prolapse and constipation are created/caused by dehydration, my suggestion if you are feeding thawed/frozen food items, dunk them in a bucket of warm water first or inject water into the food items body cavity, the lack of fluid /moisture is creating a dry colon/bowel scenerio which in turn creates the prolapse situation.
l have included a link to a prolapse reversal situation l have on YouTube which "may" help in the future but is relevant to ALL snakes.
........solar 17 (baden)
Prolapse 'Reversing' - YouTube

 

[meatman]

I just bought a pair of djarra blackheads that were born at the start of the year.
They weigh 125-150g. It just depends how much they eat and how often on how
big they are at a certain age. They are eating 50g weaner rats. Here is a link from
an older thread about nutritional values of prey items. Good luck
Nutrition Feeder Mice | Nutrient Composition of Feeder Animals

Cheers Justin

 

[solar 17]

On another point l personally feel it doesn't matter how your snake is or others at this point in time, given the chance it will catch up it just isn't going to happen over night or next month but snakes grow quite rapidly for 10 years or so before continueing to keep growing at a slower rate so there is heaps of time.
.......solar 17(baden)

 

[Digitaliss]

IMO prolapse and constipation are created/caused by dehydration, my suggestion if you are feeding thawed/frozen food items, dunk them in a bucket of warm water first or inject water into the food items body cavity, the lack of fluid /moisture is creating a dry colon/bowel scenerio which in turn creates the prolapse situation.
l have included a link to a prolapse reversal situation l have on YouTube which "may" help in the future but is relevant to ALL snakes.
........solar 17 (baden)
Prolapse 'Reversing' - YouTube

Firstly, Thank you Solar (Baden) your posts are always so informative. I watched this video at the time and was lucky enough to find that she had rectified the problem herself. I give her all her food wet (as in it has been dunked) and she normally has a drink just after feeding also. I was a bit unsure about injecting the food, but so may people have recommended it to me, I will give it a go.

I just bought a pair of djarra blackheads that were born at the start of the year.
They weigh 125-150g. It just depends how much they eat and how often on how
big they are at a certain age. They are eating 50g weaner rats. Here is a link from
an older thread about nutritional values of prey items. Good luck
Nutrition Feeder Mice | Nutrient Composition of Feeder Animals

Cheers Justin

Thank you for posting that Justin, I must have a read of that as I think I have also been led down the incorrect path with feeding nutrition and was told to get her off pinkies as quickly as possible.

Reptical supplements are very popular and easy to get your hands on. As mentioned, use small amounts as too much can be detremential to your reptiles health.

I would aim for quail to put on some size, also snakes seem to find quail irresistable. I normally use quail as my first feed for new snakes just to get them started and they have never been refused even on the first night home.

Mix a little bit of repcal in with some water. Maybe 20-40ml and inject into the stomach of the quail. This will also help with hydration. If you're feeding your snake weekly, maybe every 3rd or 4th feed you could try this.

Do just the standard Reptical and Vits used to dust the food of lizards? that seems very simple . Thank you for your help DeadCricket, I will be trying this in the future.

That is an absolute fallacy, the only thing that pink food items have significantly less of is calcium. Everything esle is either higher or pretty well equal.

Thank you for correcting this. I was also under the impression that Pinkies etc have very little nutritional value. I close to a full pack of Pinkie rats in my freezer that I chose not to use for this reason