To everyone involved with carpets

[GetCoiled]

Hi there mates,
few years ago on a famous American forum (Kingsnake ? Boa Forum, I guess?) popped up an interesting thread concerning an HOT topic: what did the currently boa keepers/breeders consider (and so recognize) as a TRUE Suriname red-tail?
That thread followed a very long list of discussions about that topic where different fellows showed different proofs and features in order to establish a ?typical?, widely diffused, ?idea?, of what a Suriname redtail had to be in flesh and scales to be classed so.
After some months of thoughts, confrontations and talks about that were made a sort of detailed manifesto just to organize all the things said about that.
A funny thing to see how may people, that bred those Boas for decades, never thought about WHAT really made them to distinguish a Suriname from a Peruvian or a Brasilian despite what their original sellers told them about.

In the same manner I?d like to know there, where the most of you lucky guys and gals live in the exact same ranges where carpet pythons naturally live, how CLEARLY distinguish, and so class, one carpet (i.e. Jungle) from another (i.e. Coastal).
Despite the range of distribution, do you recognize some typical phenotypic features (colours, patterns traits, shapes, dimensions and so on) that make you distinguish a Coastal from a Jungle, or a Inland from a Coastal? I know that is fairly easy to do between some localities, but not so easy in some natural intergrade zones (?if the terms ?intergrade zones? means still something?).
What do you personally ?look at? when you have to recognize carpets?
Have you got some personal ?keys? just to use for that?

I think that this topic is almost of interest especially in the light of the recent work of Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): ?Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota? where those Authors stated that ALL the Eastern and Northern carpet forms (cheynei, mcdowelli, metcalfei and variegata) are, taxonomically speaking, to be considered as Morelia spilota spilota. So, if it would be phylogenetically true, we could think that every kind of Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds (and so on) you met there is ?a locality form? of only one species along a uninterrupted continuum which links the different localities each other: Diamonds (starting from the South-Australia) to Cape York carpets (ending in the Northern part of Australia).

Thanks a lot in advance to everyone involved in such discussion.
Cheers
Stefano

PS: I hope to be fairly ?understandable??LOL!

 

[peterjohnson64]

Thats a great topic getcoiled. And you thought of this at 3am??? I will certainly leave this one to the scientists but comment that diamonds seem to have different housing requirements than the others. they also wan't lower temperatures. Maybe that is only because of their heat absorbing colours?

Now, where is Sdaji this morning?

 

[Jason]

not to sure what your asking but there is a huge difference in phenotype amongst the different species and even specific localities ( in general) the one that is hardest to differ in locality would be the jungle, because its range is so small in comparison to other morelia species.

 

[Dicco]

not to sure what your asking but there is a huge difference in phenotype amongst the different species and even specific localities ( in general) the one that is hardest to differ in locality would be the jungle, because its range is so small in comparison to other morelia species.

You mean in comparison to other Morelia spilota, there are 3 Morelia with extremely restricted ranges and M. Bredli also has a small range

 

[GetCoiled]

I started this thread after having a look of some locality carpet pics whom I was unable to determine without their locality infos kindly given me by some herp fellows out there. Knowing the locality of distribution were easier to class them as ?something?. Well a clear example of what I?m talking of, I guess, is one the recent Iceman?s VERY interesting threads (hi Luke) that you can still watch at

http://www.aussiepythons.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-14599.html

Well looking at that scaly jewel pictured there we could end that the ?famous? skull and crossbones head pattern is NOT a distinctive trait of the sole Jungle carpets (formerly M.s.cheynei), as we can?t obviously state that the Jungle range extends so Southern till Ingham; it?s almost clear that specimen is a very fine patterned Coastal (formerly M.s.mcdowelli) as it has been found in the middle of the Coastal range.
Coming back to my original question is it possible to determine, despite the range of distribution, ?typical phenotypic features? as ?keys? to class what you find in the bush?

I think Peter that this topic is far better known by fellows that spent their nights in the fields than ?scientists? locked in their laboratories, although I follow with so much interest what the taxonomists reveals with the most modern phylogenetic analysis. I agree with you when you point out the different Diamond requirements and needs of husbandry respect the other carpets, but all that couldn?t be the effects of a totally different environment where this taxon lives (cooler and more seasonable weather)? This would be another point at favour of an uninterrupted continuum of more, diverse, local forms closely linked each other.
I also agree with Jason and so I?d ask: maybe is the Jungles range more ?diverse? in terms of habitat (elevations, vegetations, ecological niches and so on) than the other carpet ranges to justify a so more, diverse, great variability?

Thanks a lot mates
Stefano

 

[BROWNS]

Hey Stefano,where i am in the Whitsundays ,it's still a rainforest area,although as yo head further North towards ,Bowen and Townsville the land and biush is very sparse and dry till you hit Cardwell Ingham area where you start coming into jungle country.Even where i am we get coastals no bigger than 6-7 foot and many have the same skull and crossbones head pattern which seems to be a common trait in most Northern coastals.

I;m guessing the carpet pic taken by iceman would end up being a bigger animal than say what i get down hwere because of the food availability and size of prey items,although they do tend to have boofier heads a bit mor jungle shaped than you'r average coastal and i know in my area the pattern and colour varies immensely but one trait for sure is all i've seen have the fine black edging around the markings such as icemans does.

The jungle range is diverse alright in degrees of elevation from right on the coast right up onto the TABLELANDSetc which would also attribute to different traits such as size,ceratain patterning etc.

 

[GetCoiled]

Hi Andrew,
I remember very well your very nice Whitsundays carpet (although roadkill and still waiting to see one alive and kicking?LOL!) whose head pattern looked like a jungle one as that Ingham?s?really interesting the affinity of habitat (rainforest area) between those localityies, isn?t? A very interesting feature pointed out by Neil is that fine black edging around the markings. I?ve seen Coastals from the Southern like Townsville and Trebonne and the head patterns are really more one thinks Coastals have to be. May be, despite other phenotypic features, there would be a link between head pattern and habitat?Who knows. As stated about the Jungle range seems that, more than the existence of a well defined subspecies, the variability of the carpets there follows closely the variety of landscapes and other geographical features.
I guess that taxonomically speaking is fairly impossible to class adequately ALL the naturally and locally occurring spilota variations; so what difference does it make if we have a regional colloquial names instead of a latin one? Starting from the point of view that we?ll never be able to translate completely ALL the locality carpet forms into taxonomically recognized taxa is it so important to side that topic? I think regarding the speciation processes the main factor to explain the high carpet variability is just their separate habitats, and a co-occurrence in a distinctive, co-evolving, herpetological community; so I think we could class the carpet forms along with their micro-localities infos.

 

[foxysnake]

From personal experience it seems that north east coast coastals seem to be alot lighter in colouring (creams and greens) than the ones found more west, and mostly have nice head patterning - whether it be the 3 dots or just the lines extending from above the eyes to the neck. The Ingham carpet that Ice took pics of was from dry bushland just off the beach. Carpets that we've found 40 to 50 kms away from there (such as the trebonne carpet) are alot darker and murkier in colouring - more browns with a little green. However I havn't had the chance yet to go further afield herping, so locale carpets that I've seen in the wild are generally from charterstowers upwards to tully and the odd occasion in Innisfail!

 

[GetCoiled]

Well mates, as far now, it seems that from both this thread and that one by Iceman about his fruitful herp night trip we could just try to point out that two main features, regarding the head pattern, commonly used to distinguish Coastals from Jungles and vice versa are:
1) in Coastals we find fine black lines edging around the markings of the head pattern (if skull and crossbones looking), where in Jungles the whole pattern is black fill.
2) in Coastals the head pattern is joined at the neck instead of Jungles where is mostly separated in a gap.

Very interesting the observations by Dee about the average colours of Coastals moving from the East coast toward the Inland with a progressive darkening. I?d love to see Innisfail and Tully Coastals or from other Jungles range localities just to match with the Jungles populations found there. Has someone out there any?
Cheers and thanks for your contributions
Stefano