Varanus Tristis Enclosure Size?

[rainmonitors]

I'm struggling to find an enclosure size guide for V. tristis tristis and so I'm looking for enclosure size recommendations for a single adult. Thanks!

 

[user 43767]

I'm struggling to find an enclosure size guide for V. tristis tristis and so I'm looking for enclosure size recommendations for a single adult. Thanks!

Hi, with any varanid offer as much space as possible, when given the means they will explore every cm of their "home", no need to start youngsters off in smaller tanks, moving them can be extremely stressful not to mention it`s more expensive for the keeper. I would recommend an enclosure for one single animal of approx. 180H x 120L x 90W (cm). No doubt many "breeders" keep them in far smaller tanks suggesting that if their animals mate quite regularly it means the enclosure must big enough and they are in "perfect" health and have everything they need (nonsense)!? These are extremely active and inquisitive animals that require physical and mental stimulation at all times in captivity.

 

[Sdaji]

I agree that with monitors you can't really go too big, but I don't think 6' high is really necessary. I'd personally actually give a bit more floor space than murrindindi suggests, but I'd use less than half that height. We'd probably set the enclosures up differently and utilise the space differently, which is basically a personal preference thing. Personally I'd go about 150cm x 80cm floor space (no harm in going larger if you want to) and about 60-80cm in height. The main reason I'd prefer less height even if space wasn't an issue is that it's much easier to get the temperature distribution I like in a lower enclosure (and this is probably why I would want more floor space than murrindindi does, and while it's not my style I'm sure it works well when set up in that way). If I was keeping them in a warmer climate like Darwin or Cairns' I'd use more height than if I was keeping them in a place like Melbourne. Either way I'd give them as much floor space as I was able to, and personally I'd want to go for at least a length of 5' for tristis, though you could get away with smaller.

These are fantastic critters and are near the top of my list for when I'm in a position to get back into keeping monitors.

 

[user 43767]

I agree that with monitors you can't really go too big, but I don't think 6' high is really necessary. I'd personally actually give a bit more floor space than murrindindi suggests, but I'd use less than half that height. We'd probably set the enclosures up differently and utilise the space differently, which is basically a personal preference thing. Personally I'd go about 150cm x 80cm floor space (no harm in going larger if you want to) and about 60-80cm in height. The main reason I'd prefer less height even if space wasn't an issue is that it's much easier to get the temperature distribution I like in a lower enclosure (and this is probably why I would want more floor space than murrindindi does, and while it's not my style I'm sure it works well when set up in that way). If I was keeping them in a warmer climate like Darwin or Cairns' I'd use more height than if I was keeping them in a place like Melbourne. Either way I'd give them as much floor space as I was able to, and personally I'd want to go for at least a length of 5' for tristis, though you could get away with smaller.

These are fantastic critters and are near the top of my list for when I'm in a position to get back into keeping monitors.

A 180cm "tall" enclosure is hardly high, taking into account there should be a reasonable depth of substrate (20 to 30cm) that doesn`t leave much above ground space considering they are very decent climbers, and a male can easily reach 80cm or so, and you suggest it only need be 60 to 80cm tall?
What on earth difference does it make if housed indoors in Melbourne or outdoors up in Darwin (other than one may be housed indoors the other out) either way the animal will still use as much space as the keeper provides given the means to do so (even if it`s 180cm "tall")!?

 

[Sdaji]

A 180cm "tall" enclosure is hardly high, taking into account there should be a reasonable depth of substrate (20 to 30cm) that doesn`t leave much above ground space considering they are very decent climbers, and a male can easily reach 80cm or so, and you suggest it only need be 60 to 80cm tall?
What on earth difference does it make if housed indoors in Melbourne or outdoors up in Darwin (other than one may be housed indoors the other out) either way the animal will still use as much space as the keeper provides given the means to do so (even if it`s 180cm "tall")!?

Ah, yes, getting angry and argumentative because someone does it differently from you! Haha!

The difference between Melbourne and Darwin is that in Darwin you're going to have high temperatures in the room almost constantly, and in Melbourne you're going to have cold temperatures almost constantly. This may shock you, but the same enclosure will work thermally differently depending on the temperature of the room it is in! Different external temperatures mean you need to design your cage differently to get the right internal thermal environenment. Who'd have thought?

In Darwin I can stick a narrow spotlight to give a small basking area and the whole enclosure is warm enough no matter what I do. If I wanted to use that same enclosure in Melbourne the entire enclosure would be far too cold other than during the hottest part of a few days per year. If I want to use a Basking lamp which will heat the floor in a 6' tall enclosure I'm going to overheat the entire enclosure and chew up an insane amount of electricity. As I said, there are various workarounds and different ways of doing things, but in a cold environment it wouldn't suit the way I like to do it. Tristis live in a variety of environments and they aren't a species which needs to sit vertically on the side of a tree (if you're talking about a species like Boyd's Forest Dragons, or Frilled Lizards, then yes, I'd use the extra height and consider it necessary). I experimented with Pygmy Mulga Monitors, one of the most arboreal of monitors which naturally spends its time on the side of tree trunks etc, and I found that given the option of doing whatever they wanted, they actually preferred and did better in a terrestrial setup, and I used enclosures 45cm high which included deep substrate. My largest ones had a total body length of over 40cm. I gave them about twice the floor space most people do and they still had plenty of climbing opportunities and much more space to run around and explore than most people give them despite the lower height. Tristis go really well in enclosures with similar dimensions scaled to their size. Actually, I can't recall ever seeing anyone keeping tristis indoors in an enclosure 6' high, and plenty half that or less.

 

[rainmonitors]

Hi, with any varanid offer as much space as possible, when given the means they will explore every cm of their "home", no need to start youngsters off in smaller tanks, moving them can be extremely stressful not to mention it`s more expensive for the keeper. I would recommend an enclosure for one single animal of approx. 180H x 120L x 90W (cm). No doubt many "breeders" keep them in far smaller tanks suggesting that if their animals mate quite regularly it means the enclosure must big enough and they are in "perfect" health and have everything they need (nonsense)!? These are extremely active and inquisitive animals that require physical and mental stimulation at all times in captivity.

I agree that with monitors you can't really go too big, but I don't think 6' high is really necessary. I'd personally actually give a bit more floor space than murrindindi suggests, but I'd use less than half that height. We'd probably set the enclosures up differently and utilise the space differently, which is basically a personal preference thing. Personally I'd go about 150cm x 80cm floor space (no harm in going larger if you want to) and about 60-80cm in height. The main reason I'd prefer less height even if space wasn't an issue is that it's much easier to get the temperature distribution I like in a lower enclosure (and this is probably why I would want more floor space than murrindindi does, and while it's not my style I'm sure it works well when set up in that way). If I was keeping them in a warmer climate like Darwin or Cairns' I'd use more height than if I was keeping them in a place like Melbourne. Either way I'd give them as much floor space as I was able to, and personally I'd want to go for at least a length of 5' for tristis, though you could get away with smaller.

These are fantastic critters and are near the top of my list for when I'm in a position to get back into keeping monitors.

Thanks both! It seems there are very variable recommendations on tristis enclosures. Not only personal opinions of both, but many sites and books also differ. I can get a few different sizes but some have quite a price jump. [LxWxH] 120x60x90 for $500, 150x60x90 for $700, 90x60x120 for $700, or 120x60x120 for $800. My enclosure builder recommends not to go deeper than 60cm for enclosures, so I'm happy to put more size into length or height to compensate. Of course I wanna get the enclosure right the first time and have an inquistive, active monitor have the space to be so, so I'm happy to save for the most expensive.

 

[Sdaji]

Thanks both! It seems there are very variable recommendations on tristis enclosures. Not only personal opinions of both, but many sites and books also differ. I can get a few different sizes but some have quite a price jump. [LxWxH] 120x60x90 for $500, 150x60x90 for $700, 90x60x120 for $700, or 120x60x120 for $800. My enclosure builder recommends not to go deeper than 60cm for enclosures, so I'm happy to put more size into length or height to compensate. Of course I wanna get the enclosure right the first time and have an inquistive, active monitor have the space to be so, so I'm happy to save for the most expensive.

Yep, there are plenty of different ways to do it, and as you'll see, some people will get grumpy if you don't choose their way, even if most people recommend snd do something different! Of those options I'd choose the second, bur personally I wouldn't go for something that narrow. I'd also definitely build my own enclosure according to my own specs rather than just go with what someone else happens to build (as you can see, methods vary so I want something which suits my own ideas). I built my first monitor enclosure based on a mixture of what I'd learned from American breeders (who at the time were having brilliant results) and my own ideas, and completely ignored what the Australians were doing (at the time few could even keep small and medium monitors alive long term and breeding them was extremely rare, and I still think Australians are a long way behind with indoor monitor keeping).

The main thing is that you give them an extremely hot basking spot (if you can rest your hand on it without it burning you, it's not hot enough and no, I'm not exaggerating) and that you don't overheat the whole enclosure. I aim for a hotspot of around 70-80 degrees, at least 70, you'll get away with 60 and might get away with 50, but probably won't get away with much less. This sounds excessive to many new keepers (and stubborn older keepers), but basking spots over over 70 degrees are common all over the range of these monitors for most of the year, and you can often find natural basking spots of over 50 degrees even in winter in places like Melbourne. Monitors are very much heat loving creatures.

 

[user 43767]

Sdaji: I`m "Getting angry and argumentative", you trumped up know it all, it`s certainly confusing to hear your methods have supposedly enabled you to have "bred" more varanids than all the rest of the big breeders put together as you`ve claimed more than once (you don`t "breed" them, THEY breed you/we incubate the eggs)?
A "narrow spotlight" bulb no matter the location in any state or country is much more likely to cause a burn, I would ALWAYS recommend flood beam if used as a "basking bulb".
You kept a semi arborial monitor measuring 40cm in an enclosure measuring only 45cm high which included a "deep layer of substrate", can we see the setup?
Don`t tell what the climate is in my home state (Victoria).
If the surface temp on the basking object can (literally) burn our skin simply by touching it, it can do the same to theirs (some species/individuals will indeed use surface temps up or over 70c at times, other species/individuals will not, we must allow for that).
I`m calling you a FRAUD sport, much of what you spout comes from caresheets and the internet, again I ask you to show us all photos/videos of at least some (a few dozen at least) of your CBB varanids and their "suitably sized" enclosures..
[doublepost=1594125405,1594124304][/doublepost]

I'm struggling to find an enclosure size guide for V. tristis tristis and so I'm looking for enclosure size recommendations for a single adult. Thanks!

View attachment 329489


Hi again, I just want to show you that there is no such thing as "too big" in terms of enclosure size, a few pics of one of my monitors from hatchling to adult...


EDIT: I haver no idea why a couple of the pics went into another post?

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

All that water and no turtles...

 

[user 43767]

All that water and no turtles...

Hi, gee I hadn`t noticed, there were several small turtles in there just before I took the pics (wonder where they disappeared to)??????

 

[Sdaji]

Sdaji: I`m "Getting angry and argumentative", you trumped up know it all, it`s certainly confusing to hear your methods have supposedly enabled you to have "bred" more varanids than all the rest of the big breeders put together as you`ve claimed more than once (you don`t "breed" them, THEY breed you/we incubate the eggs)?
A "narrow spotlight" bulb no matter the location in any state or country is much more likely to cause a burn, I would ALWAYS recommend flood beam if used as a "basking bulb".
You kept a semi arborial monitor measuring 40cm in an enclosure measuring only 45cm high which included a "deep layer of substrate", can we see the setup?
Don`t tell what the climate is in my home state (Victoria).
If the surface temp on the basking object can (literally) burn our skin simply by touching it, it can do the same to theirs (some species/individuals will indeed use surface temps up or over 70c at times, other species/individuals will not, we must allow for that).
I`m calling you a FRAUD sport, much of what you spout comes from caresheets and the internet, again I ask you to show us all photos/videos of at least some (a few dozen at least) of your CBB varanids and their "suitably sized" enclosures..
[doublepost=1594125405,1594124304][/doublepost]View attachment 329489


Hi again, I just want to show you that there is no such thing as "too big" in terms of enclosure size, a few pics of one of my monitors from hatchling to adult...
View attachment 329486 View attachment 329487

View attachment 329488 EDIT: I haver no idea why a couple of the pics went into another post?

View attachment 329490

Hahaha! You really are a cranky little guy, aren't you?

Amusingly, the most common care sheets people pass around for Pygmy Mulga Monitors were written by me! The most common one is one I wrote for the VHS nearly 20 years ago, they just asked me to write something for them to stick on their website and I quickly typed something up in a few minutes, and it continues to amuse me that it's still being passed around today. They asked me to write it because back then everyone was blown away by anyone managing to breed them and it was big news. I was puzzled when my phone kept ringing the first time I bred them, mostly not from people wanting to buy them, just from people who were amazed and wanted to ask me about it. I wrote a couple of articles about them for the magazines which were around at the time, if you're sufficiently interested you can grab a back issue of Reptiles Australia with my article in it. I spent years selling bucketloads of them, there are probably still pictures I posted on this site of babies hatching, large numbers of youngsters in tubs, etc.

Have you ever walked on the hot ground in bare feet in summer and burned your feet? Your hand is more sensitive than your feet. These are completely natural, normal conditions. Monitors love them.

Hahaha, it's comical that you would be angry about me commenting on the climate of where you live when I have never done so and have no idea where you live, and even less care. I commented on how I personally would do things in different climates. Not how anyone else, let alone you specifically, should or does do it.

I'm perfectly happy for people to do things however they like, I know there's a thousand different effective ways to keep most reptiles and I have no care if people don't choose the same methods I do. It's a shame others feel angry when others do it differently!

For the record, I certainly never claimed to have bred more varanids in total than anyone else, just of one specific species in a few seasons. Even more than 10 years after keeping them I still have people asking me for them, probably because the care sheets they're reading are mine.

And hey, if you want to think I was secretly breeding my monitors in enclosures taller than I say, well, hey, you have yourself a merry little day! Haha!

 

[user 43767]

Your response to me regarding both UVB exposure and supplementation: CLEARLY you are totally uninformed in terms of the studies that have been completed regarding UVB and it`s benefits in comparison to supplementation. Get yourself some up to date info before offering advise on topics you don`t yet understand... The thread concerned varanids specifically.
And once again show at least some photographic/video evidence of your claims.

.

I spent many years posting many pictures of my monitors, including in multiple publications/articles, particularly Pygmy Mulga Monitors. For many years I was putting out stacks of them, I think for a few years I was producing more of that particular species than all other breeders put together. Actually, when I first bred them my phone rang hot with astonished people asking how I did it and if I had genuinely bred them. Back then they were considered almost impossible to breed. Actually, Steve Irwin once testified in court under oath that it was literally impossible to breed them in captivity! Crazy stuff! I was one of the first people in Australia putting out information about small monitors which taught others how to do it, and it was around then that people started to catch on and have success with them in Australia. When I was first selling them I told buyers how to keep them and very clearly told them that the traditional methods probably wouldn't even keep them alive for long, and I was frustrated by them calling over the next few weeks and months saying they were inactive and not feeding, which is why eventually I started writing articles. My first article on them is probably a bit difficult to track down now, but if you're sufficiently keen, the earliest one you'd probably be able to get hold of would be the one I had published in Reptiles Australia, probably about 15 years ago now.

It's good to see that you've admitted UV can cause harm. This is more honest than your previous statement. Something expensive and potentially hazardous is best not used if it isn't shown to be necessary. In many years of experimenting, I didn't find it to give any benefit, let alone be necessary. Incidentally, for quite some years I did keep some of them under UV, partly because it served as a side by side control experiment, and partly because some buyers were so convinced that UV was necessary that they wouldn't buy monitors unless they'd been kept under UV! I suppose I could have just lied, but it was nicer to be honest. The ones without UV did just as well of course, and at the time I stopped keeping monitors I still had the first three small monitors I'd ever bought, which a friend took and they were happy with him for years, he then passed them on and I'm not sure what happened to them after that. I don't care what their blood chemistry was, they were thriving, they multiclutched every season, I went many years and goodness knows how many clutches without a single slug, and I never had any sign of MBD (except without supplements). Especially with skinks and dragons, I'd quite reliably get MBD and in my early days in the 80s and early 90s this was a big problem I didn't know how to deal with. UV didn't help, but the supplements cleared it right up and I never once had the issue in an animal which was getting supplements, after years of strugging with it (back in the 80s and early 90s, herpetoculture was in its infancy, information was basically not available, I'd never even heard of the internet until the mid 90s and there was basically nothing of use on it... but I suppose at least there weren't masses of people parroting misinformation despite a lack of hands on experience).[/QUOTE

[doublepost=1594204891,1594203747][/doublepost]For Sdaji: An article on the effectiveness of supplementary D3 in comparison to UVB exposure in Bearded dragons... I will link to a similar study on varanids in due course.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...ov/20206712/&usg=AOvVaw3S1eT0Gt5i9nbMjnuVi660

 

[Sdaji]

Your response to me regarding both UVB exposure and supplementation: CLEARLY you are totally uninformed in terms of the studies that have been completed regarding UVB and it`s benefits in comparison to supplementation. Get yourself some up to date info before offering advise on topics you don`t yet understand... The thread concerned varanids specifically.
And once again show at least some photographic/video evidence of your claims.




[doublepost=1594204891,1594203747][/doublepost]For Sdaji: An article on the effectiveness of supplementary D3 in comparison to UVB exposure in Bearded dragons... I will link to a similar study on varanids in due course.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj7tsmLu73qAhXVtXEKHQp7AC8QFjAAegQIARAB&url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20206712/&usg=AOvVaw3S1eT0Gt5i9nbMjnuVi660

You can post whatever you like, but in the real world laboratory of life, I have produced multiple consecutive generations of lizards with zero UV. Skinks, geckoes, legless lizards, and yes, monitors. The only group of Australian lizards I haven't experimented with UV on is dragons (I have suspicions about what I'd find, but without having done it won't comment). I found no difference with and without UV, so I stopped using it. Theory can say whatever it likes, but if I actually see something actually happen, I'm going to take what I observe first hand over any theory anyone presents to me. As a qualified biologist I've read countless studies and worked in laboratories and animal houses watching the research taking place, and I've certainly see plenty of completely flawed studies. If you weren't so belligerent I'd probably take the time to read the articles, analyse them and either discuss the flaws or how they should be interpreted. You've probably noticed that I'm happy spending a lot of time discussing herp-related topics with people of any level, whether they're above me and I'm able to learn from them or they're complete newbies and I'm just teaching them, as long as they're polite. But honestly, you're not worth the time.

Hey, if you want to get upset about me saying that, or accuse me of lying, that's your choice. Countless keepers in multiple continents including large scale breeders are doing exactly what I've done, but hey, maybe we're all together in a giant conspiracy to try to fool people?

 

[user 43767]

Sdaji: You stated very clearly

: "Especially with skinks and dragons, I'd quite reliably get MBD and in my early days in the 80s and early 90s this was a big problem I didn't know how to deal with. UV didn't help, but the supplements cleared it right up and I never once had the issue in an animal which was getting supplements". [Enquote}

In your previous response to me you stated you have NOT "experimented" with dragons and UVB? By some quirk of nature (according to you) in the 1980s and 90`s dragons recovered from MBD without access to UVB which (you say) had no positive effect, only supplementation "cured" them, do I take it the supplements included D3? The most up to date study demonstrates UVB is DEFINITELY required and NOT dietary D3?
You say you followed some of the American keepers and breeders of monitors and their methods (so have I and many others across the world) in fact I`m very well acquainted with a number of them (including Frank Retes) who was instrumental is recommending the relatively high basking surface temps we now know are of paramount importance, I attended the conference in Germany where Frank offered his suggestions in that regard (I was invited by my late friend Prof. Dr. Hans-Georg Horn) I was a member of FR`s website (v.net) for many years (at Franks request). I notice some similarities with his and your style of "delivery" that being if someone criticises anything you say you resort to insults and "hahaha`s".
You do not anger me in the slightest, you DO frustrate me, because you are so clearly lacking in some extremely important issues regarding captive husbandry (including supplementation) and you pass that misinformation on to countless newcomers, adding to the mountain of confusion that already exists.
I put the link up in the hope you would update your information, the discussion is about offering less experienced keepers some RELIABLE info, not about whether you think I`m "worth the effort" of reading it, you pompous individual.
Supplements for the most part are pure guesswork, some of no benefit whatsoever, by far the best method is to offer a varied, nourishing diet and to ensure the feeders are well fed (along with all other parameters of their care).

 

[Sdaji]

Yeah, I said I had a problem, I then tried UV, it did nothing. I then tried dietary supplements, they immediately solved the problem. UV never made any difference. I experimented heavily in the late 90s and early 00s, I could never find artificial UV to make any difference.

What's your point?

 

[user 43767]

Yeah, I said I had a problem, I then tried UV, it did nothing. I then tried dietary supplements, they immediately solved the problem. UV never made any difference. I experimented heavily in the late 90s and early 00s, I could never find artificial UV to make any difference.

What's your point?

There are reliable studies that CLEARLY demonstrate UVB exposure is very effective at raising blood serum levels (amongst other benefits) and supplementation in the form of dietary D3 in particular has little to zero effect, which makes your claims unreliable. You need to update your information in that regard and stop informing people that UVB is of no benefit and supplements (which?) are the way to go no matter the species (or family).
The (varanid) species that in captivity receive a mainly invert diet can benefit greatly from natural or artificial UVB exposure (obviously the artificial should be the better quality bulb/tubes and used in conjunction with a solar meter). The closest thing to natural sunlight at this time are the reptile specific metal halides (those were not available at the time you were keeping monitors, neither were the more effective UVB tubes/bulbs we have these days).
Those species that receive a decent amount of vertebrate prey I believe CAN maintain D3 levels without access to UVB (I have had several blood tests done on my monitors to confirm that) but even so, UVB can still benefit them in other respects, as I say. Again, most supplementation is pure guesswork, a multi million $ worldwide industry desperately trying to convince us that our animals need their products in order to remain healthy in captivity...
This is a discussion not an argument, it`s in an effort to clarify certain points, that should always be the objective as far as I`m concerned.
.

 

[Sdaji]

You can say whatever you like, but I've kept and bred literally thousands of lizards without a ray of UV, natural or artificial, and while using supplements I have never had any hint of a problem with MBD or the like with any of them, over decades of time, many species, thousands of individuals, ranging from monitors, skinks, geckoes (which I've actually never kept without supplements, so perhaps they would have no issues without it, I can't be sure) and legless lizards. The supplements were the difference between constant problems and zero problems. If literal decades, thousands of individuals, consecutive generations, many many species, etc, is 'unrealiable' it'll do until something reliable comes along. I'm certainly not going to put a short term study in a laboratory which looks at a small number of individuals and measures things using blood serum levels etc over what happens in actual demonstrated long term health.

You're right about there being new types of UV lamps which may be better than what I was experimenting with until about 15 years ago. Certainly nothing back then worked. Perhaps some of the new ones now actually do the job, and I'd be interested to see results of real world studies in a realistic, applicable context. The funny thing is though, back 20+ years ago the studies were saying the same things about artificial UV. These studies are all short term, not carried out over the long term lifetime of animals, and sample sizes are low.

You talk about the reptile supplement industry being about money. Do you think they're giving UV lamps away for free or running them as not for profit operations? Those things are expensive! Looking at real world evidence, which is the type I like most, I see the large scale breeders getting great results with no UV. Whatever is happening, whatever the industry, even if it's not reptiles or animals, the people doing it on the largest scale and getting the best results are the ones I look at. That was the exact way I started breeding small monitors when it was considered virtually impossible in Australia, and why I was writing some of the very first small monitor husbandry articles ever published in Australia. Australians listening to each other couldn't do it, I copied what the large scale Americans were doing and had them thriving.

If on the one hand someone in the lab says we detected what we consider to be favourable chemistry in the blood of a few lizards over a short period of time, and on the other hand many people are producing successive generations of healthy lizards which are thriving with long, healthy, productive lives... well, I know which holds more weight in my view.