Vic Pythons - What have you seen? (Lately)

[AnthonyL]

So jealous of you northern folk, as I can't take a stroll in the bush in warmer months and stumble across a gorgeous python in the wild. I can stumble across plenty of tigers and browns LOL - Just nothing I wan't to admire up close LOL....

Anyhoo... Wiki states that Morelia Spilota is the most southerly dwelling python in the world but lives at high altitudes. Typically the higher altitudes and high country is south of the Murray in Vic. When I research the Metcalfei, distribution is the upper north west of the state. So what Pythons is one likely to see in Vic? Metcalfei or Spilota? I am quite surprised that a Diamond's distribution comes all the way down to Vic - Not just Vic but the higher parts of Vic? I just can't imagine this, as it's so south and so cold (again, this is as per 'internet') Is this distribution outdated? Are they still around Vic? Has anyone here seen a Diamond? I though't they'd be in a warmer climate, was surprised at that info...

Would it be correct in saying that the most likely, perhaps only python one may see in the wild in vic is the Murray Darling?

 

[Fall guys]

Diamond pythons are known to interbreed with other species such as MD and Coastals And you will notice that the further north you go they get brighter and brighter almost a bright yellow and the more south you go they get darker so chances are
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So jealous of you northern folk, as I can't take a stroll in the bush in warmer months and stumble across a gorgeous python in the wild. I can stumble across plenty of tigers and browns LOL - Just nothing I wan't to admire up close LOL....

Anyhoo... Wiki states that Morelia Spilota is the most southerly dwelling python in the world but lives at high altitudes. Typically the higher altitudes and high country is south of the Murray in Vic. When I research the Metcalfei, distribution is the upper north west of the state. So what Pythons is one likely to see in Vic? Metcalfei or Spilota? I am quite surprised that a Diamond's distribution comes all the way down to Vic - Not just Vic but the higher altitudes of Vic (As per internet) Is this distribution outdated? Are they still around Vic? Has anyone here seen a Diamond? I though't they'd be in a warmer climate, was surprised at that info...

Would it be correct in saying that the most likely, perhaps only python one may see in the wild in vic is the Murray Darling?

 

[AnthonyL]

Are you saying the lower they go, the Vic Diamonds, have coastal or MD in them so aren't true/full Diamonds?

 

[Fall guys]

Are you saying the lower they go, the Vic Diamonds, have coastal or MD in them so aren't true/full Diamonds?

In vic it would be x with MD (not all ) but far north nsw would be X coastal

You will notice the coastals start to almost get the yellow colour that diamonds have when their locales cross

If @Sdaji is around he might be able to tell you more

 

[AnthonyL]

Cool, thanks.

I’ve seen the old debates here and other places that there aren’t any true coastals left. Unsure if that is correct or not. Could this be the future of wild Diamonds if they are known to cross breed?

Also, (don’t know much abt genetics) but because they are from the Morelia genus they can reproduce right?

Edit: So are Vic Diamonds technically intergrades?

 

[GBWhite]

Cool, thanks.

I’ve seen the old ebates here and other places that there aren’t any true coastals left. Unsure if that is correct or not. Could this be the future of wild Diamonds if they are known to cross breed?

Also, (don’t know much abt genetics) but because they are from the Morelia genus they can reproduce right?

Edit: So are Vic Diamonds technically intergrades?

To answer your questions;

1. There are plenty of what are referred to as Morelia Mcdowlli (Coastal Carpets) left in the wild and in collections.

2. No the future of wild Morelia spilota sp (Diamonds) is well and truly secure.

3. All members of the Morelia spilota group can breed with each other and produce fertile off spring...hence the variation of colour morphs produced by private keepers.

4. Vic Diamonds are not intergrades. Morelia spilota occur along the east coast of NSW and as far south as the Gippsland area of Vic. Morelia metcalfei (Murray/Darling) occur west of the Great Dividing Range in the north of Vic. There are plenty of records of M. spilota sp from Gippsland however they are considered rare in this area. I've included a link to the Atlas of Living Australia which includes records of observations of M spilota sp in Victoria (just click on View Records if your interested).

EDIT: Forgot to include the link.

https://bie.ala.org.au/species/urn:...fd.taxon:8ee87cd8-b82b-45d1-aa78-a1a6f4843f26

 

[Allan]

Has Murray Darlings got species status recently?

 

[Wally]

Thank you George for adding some credibility to the responses on this thread.

Diamond captured/relocated 50kms north of the Vic border.

 

[Bluetongue1]

George has done an excellent job answering the other questions. I’ll try to explain th genetics behind it in general terms…

….Also, (don’t know much abt genetics) but because they are from the Morelia genus they can reproduce right? ….

What is a Species?
A species is defined as one type of living thing, consisting of similar individuals, which bred with each other in nature to produce viable and fertile offspring. Problems with this definition arose when scientists started to look at groups of very closely related species. So the concept of a species complex was introduced = a group of closely related species that share so many characteristics in common that the boundaries between them are often unclear. Speciation is the process whereby new species develop (via evolution) when populations become genetically isolated. Speciation takes hundreds of thousands of years to happen.

The Present – a ‘Snapshot’ in Time
The majority of today’s organisms have developed to a stage where they can be identified as individual species. Some, however, are still in the process of speciation. This raises difficult questions. At what stage can we say yep, these are now separate species? What if genetic isolation is not total and there is still a small amount of genetic flow between differing populations? What if two populations are separated for a long time and then come back together?

Changing Taxonomic Techniques
Historically, taxonomists used physical characteristics. Mendel’s work on genetics, over a century ago, brought a new understanding of evolution and species. It is only very recently we have developed the ability to examine genetic makeup and started to use it. We still have a lot to learn about how to use it properly. As different taxonomists vary in what and how they use molecular information from genes, their conclusions vary. The Morelia group is a classic example of this.

Cross-Breeding
Two different species from the same genus can commonly produce viable offspring, which are often, if not usually, sterile e.g. horse (Equus caballus) X donkey (Equus asinus) produces a mule. However, if the two species are genetically similar enough, the hybrid offspring can be fertile. It is also possible, on rare occasions, for two species from closely allied genera to produce viable offspring i.e. an inter-generic cross. Even more rarely, an inter-generic hybrid may be fertile e.g. Domestic Canary (Serinus canaria domestica) X Red Siskin finch (Spinus cucullata). This example of a fertile inter-generic cross is how red colour was introduced into canaries to produce Red-factor Canaries.

Occasionally in nature you will get an accidental mating between two different species. This can result in a natural hybrid. The same term is often used for accidental crosses between different (but distinct) subspecies. However, where there is still a certain amount of on-going gene flow between two distinct populations, be they separate species or subspecies, then the correct term to use is intergrade.

 

[Magixs]

Well put Bluetongue1, I don't like the part where it says "accidental" as if nature is aware of the categories we've placed them in. It is just another part of evolution, as there is zero destination for evolution other than the way it happens. Eveything else I thought was great!
Thanks


''

 

[Sdaji]

I see I was tagged. GBWhite gave a great answer.

The Murray Darlings in Victoria aren't found close to the Diamonds in Victoria and they don't interbreed in Victoria.

No idea what someone meant when they said there were no more Coastals (???)

Nice to see a good description of the term intergrade - literally the first time I've ever seen it described properly on APS. A Sydney Diamond crossed with a Victorian Murray Darling is a hybrid, not an intergrade... but I'm not going to touch the debate if one starts! Haha!

Not sure about the reference to Morelia spilota being confined to higher altitudes. You can find them right on the foreshore sometimes. Occassionally one even turns up out in the water. They do occur in higher altitudes, especially in the north, but you won't find them in the Victorian alps! They often live around water courses, especially in the drier regions. Down south the higher altitudes are too cold.

I've personally never seen a Morelia in Victoria, but I've seen M. s. melcalfei about 20km north of the border (nowhere near any other M. spilota, absolutely zero diamond influence).

 

[cris]

Is there any reason not to introduce pythons in suburban areas?

 

[Bluetongue1]

....I don't like the part where it says "accidental" as if nature is aware of the categories we've placed them in. ....

Use of the term “accidental” was deliberate and is appropriate. It refers to different population which are sympatric for at least part of their respective distributions but do not normally breed together. There is some mechanism operating to maintain genetic isolation, which is the cornerstone that allows/allowed each to evolve separately into a different species. Clearly geographic barriers are not relevant for sympatric distributions. So it has to be behavioural, visual, ecological or chemical, or any combination of these. Here are couple of examples, one behavioural the other chemical, with an explanation of how an accident can happen.

There is a photo in Mike Tyler’s book Australian Frogs - A Natural History of a male Litoria nasuta in amplexus with Notaden melanoscaphus. While these would not produce offspring it goes to show that mistaken partners can occur. One can imagine the male Rocket frog was calling and the Spadefoot happened to move into close proximity in dim light, and so was pounced on. Similarly, snakes following a pheromone trail that come across a related species that happens to be crossing that trail at the right time, and has probably picked up some of the scent from the trail, can be mistaken as the producer of the pheromone. I acknowledge that is only two examples, but they are very relevant and they do clearly illustrate how cross mating may occur “by accident”.

 

[AnthonyL]

@GBWhite - Thanks for the Atlas link. I am interested in this kind of thing.

Should I interpret singular sightings in random areas such as NT, inland NSW and Nth of Bris as sightings of captive released to wild MS sp?

Only if you don't mind, can you please expand on why the future of the MS sp is uncertain? Is it because they are known to cross breed with other Morelia and that their distribution crosses paths with many other types of Morelia eventually diluting it as a subspecies?

I see I was tagged. GBWhite gave a great answer.
No idea what someone meant when they said there were no more Coastals (???)

Just loosely paraphrasing some old threads that I have been reading here - Observed too and fro arguments - These were old threads, mind you. I wasn't convinced at the notion. Members such as @GBWhite and a few others (Forgotten who exactly, possibly yourself also, can't remember) explained that outward appearance as well as behaviour doesn't determine species - Colour variation and behaviour differences in Coastal's (within all morelia actually) within their wide distribution have variation and that doesn't mean that they aren't pure. It's simply adaption to their locale. (I am paraphrasing in laymans terms. I had to break it down to understand it myself. Quite interesting - Tricky for someone who doesn't have this kind of educational background - Was too busy studying human psych LOL)

Back to Metcalfei and Spilota....

Thank you @Bluetongue1 for your info on definition of species.

So in laymans terms, going to explain my understanding of the replies to my OP and as well as other information I have read elsewhere on the forum and other pages, and if someone (anyone) would be kind enough to please correct me if I am wrong or confirm that I 'get it'. (Again, not for any real reason. Not breeding or anything. I just enjoy learning and reading. I want to expand my knowledge and understanding about Australian reptiles, beyond being a basic keeper who is waiting for eat, sh*t, shed)

• A morelia of any kind X a morelia of another kind, isn't an "Intergrade" on the basis that they are from the same "genus" and have the same genetic make up. The correct term is Hybrid.

• Because of their genetic similarity, whatever offspring the crossed hybrid Morelia above would produce, that offspring would also be able to reproduce, this is unlike the horse / donkey example, because their genetic make up is not the same rendering it sterile.

• All Morelia are essentially the same snake biologically, with different exterior or behaviour. It's the DNA that dictate species not the exterior or behavior. All morelia are the same snake evolving over time to create subspecies. So while they make all look different and have different behaviour, colour, pattern, they do not have genetic change. The locality / environment / climate etc is what brings about these visual and behavioural changes in all Morelia over time.

• Intergrade refers to an area where two species of Morelia cross distribution paths. Both pythons in this overlapping distribution path are in the Intergrade zone, they are still 'pure' as they posses that "ongoing gene flow" (That bluetongue referred to) and belong to the same Morelia genus. The term intergrade refers to either of the snakes, the Murray Darling for example and the Diamond, from that overlapping zone. Eventually the species within the intergrade zone as they broaden their distribution, may turn into their own subspecies as they climatise and change / conform to conditions within that area, but this will take a very long time (As in 1000's of years)

• The term 'Intergrade' is currently INCORRECTLY being coined in ads for "pythons for sale". What the breeder (possessing obvious misunderstanding of the phrase) means to say, is 'Hybrid'

• Should a species say in lower NSW (Coastal for example) look different to one from QLD - It has simply evolved to its habitat which is why we have the brown kind and then the grey kind. (Same with Bredli and Diamonds) It doesn't mean its not a 'pure coastal' by the majority's understanding of what a coastal is (Again, only based on looks not genetics - which we have ascertained is incorrect anyway) It simply means that Coastal's from one particular area can be one colour and quite a different colour in another area. This leads to people quoting the locale of where their Coastal is from. i.e.: Port Mac. All of them despite variation are pure Coastals.

• All Pythons over time branch out, we are not losing species, because of Intergrade zones. Over 1000's of years we will gain species. (Not confident in this last one - Again, please correct me if I am misunderstanding this )

• Back to my opening post, re: Pythons in Vic, it is possible to see either, but not likely a diamond, due to thinner distribution in Vic. More likely to see MD in upper North east coast of Vic if you were to see any pythons in Vic...

I apologise for the bastardised explanation, of my understanding. As I said, I am explaining it in complete dumbed down laymans terms, so I can ensure that I grasp it correctly.

 

[GBWhite]

Okay, I'll try and do my best to answer your questions in a manner that I hope is easy to understand.

The Genus Morelia consists of pythons with a combination of distinguishing characteristics [ie: non venomous, presence of teeth on the premaxilla (additional row on the upper jaw), head covered by small irregular, broken and sometimes large symmetrical shields (scales), labial pits].

The Genus consists of a number of species that display distinct & unique characteristics that is consistent within each species and unique enough to confirm each as individual species. Recognized species of the Genus Morelia are Amethyst (or Scrub) Python (M. amethistina), Oenpelli Python (M. oenpelliensis), Green Python (M. viridis), Central Carpet Python (M. bredli), Rough Scaled Python (M. carinata), Central Carpet Python (M. bredli) & Carpet / Diamond Python (M. spilota).

In regard to Morelia spilota it gets a bit complicated and because members of this species are consistent in morphology and characteristics they are often referred to as the Morelia spilota Group. They include the Diamond Python (Morelia spilota) from sth/east NSW. South West Carpet Python (Morelia imbricata) sth/wst WA & SA and Carpet Pythons (Morelia variegata) the remained of their range. To complicate things further M. varigata has been divided into a further 4 sub-species based on location, colour and patterns. They are the Jungle Carpet Python (M. cheynei ) from the Atherton Tableland region, Qld), Coastal Carpet (M mcdowelli) from northern NSW to Cape York, Murray Darling Carpet Python (M metacalfei) from interior NSW, Qld & Vic and Darwin Carpet Python (M variegata) from northern Australia. The taxonomy used to elevate the forma four taxa (and I might add M. bredli) to sub-species/species level is questionable but as it stands at the moment they are valid and will remain that way until someone takes the bull by the horns to fully confirm if they are or are not valid species.

The use of mitochondrial DNA analysis can determine the ancestry of a genus and/or species as well as the location where an individual animal comes from but according to the ICZN Code, location/distribution alone is not considered sufficient to classify taxa as a separate species and due to the huge variations of colour morphs within M. variegata & M. imbricate right across their range it is questionable if this is a unique enough characteristics to be used to raise/separate these snakes to species level.

So, mating between snakes within the spilota group are referred to as intergrades but offspring arising from matings between any and all of the other species within the Genus (eg: Scrub with Carpet, Scrub with Oenpelli, Oenpelli or Scrub with Green, Green with Carpet etc) are hybrids.

There is no uncertainty related to the future of any of the snakes from the genus Morelia. I presume you are referring to the Moreia spilota group when you ask the question and again there is no uncertainty regarding their future and the survival of all members of this group is secure.

All members of this group display exactly the same behaviour. The only difference is appearance and location. Southern Morelia spilota look different from their northern cousins.

As far as finding Morelia spilota in Vic you’d probably have a better chance of finding what’s referred t as a Murray Darling than a Diamond but don’t just go out expecting to find one because without field experiences your chances are pretty low.

Herpetoculture (keeping snakes in captivity) and herpetology (study of reptiles) are two completely different fields and if you really want to know about herpetology can I suggest that the best way to start is to acquire the latest edition of Reptile & Amphibians of Australia by Harold Cogger.

Hope this helps.

George

 

[AnthonyL]

Looking forward to properly reading your post above and then trying to understand it, thank you for giving me something to chew on... I love stuff like this. But mostly, I do want to thank you for dignifying my post of laymans terms and taking the time to provide an in depth reply and breaking it down for me.

Re: The future of Moreila Sp, pardon my human error there. I actually misread your sentence from point 2 in not your previous post, but the one prior. I skimmed over the word ‘the’ which changed the context of the sentence for me. I thought I read “NO future of wild diamonds is secure” and then assumed that was because of the cross breeding - furthering my confusion. Disregard, my bad on not reading thoroughly. I now re-read to see “No the future of wild diamonds is secure”

Nope, field herping is also not the reason I ask. Wish I had the time and also I live quite far from distrubution zones for both Metcalfei and Spilota. More just wanting to know which pythons we champion in our state and what are most commonly and / or recently spotted.

Will get my hands on that book. Thanks for the tip!
[doublepost=1530020499,1530019526][/doublepost]Actually, I just read your post above, and I get it! Lol I’m a bit excited because I was expecting to need longer to digest it when I first saw your reply, but upon reading you have most certainly broken it down in a way I understand. Thanks again for your effort and patience with a novice. While my morelia are in brumation, I’ll definitely get that book and read up over the winter. Have a good evening.