about these caramel flavoured childreni

[expansa1]

Hi Craig,
Congrats on getting this beautiful morph of childreni well established. Your understanding of the need to develop particular markers for genetic analysis is correct. However, Tyrosinase is simply a chemical that is used to produce melanin, rather than being a gene and part of the genetic make-up as such. There are relatively simple tests available for determining whether an albino mammal is tyrosinase positive or negative, but I can't remember how easy it is to do in snakes. I'd have to do some research, but I'm pretty sure its possible.
Matt

Hi Matt,
My understanding of 'Tyrosinase' is that it is an enzyme not normally produced that actually destroys melanin. Although it is a chemical, it is not produced in a 'normal' snake. For it to be present, it must be carried on a chromosome, and Mendel's theory has been proven to work in this case.
I'm sure there is or could be a test to actually detect the Tyrosinase in a blood sample if they know how to identify Tyrosinase.

Regards,

Craig

Turtle Caresheet
http://www.pilbarapythons.com/turtlecaresheets.htm

Australian Freshwater Turtle Conservation & Research Association (AFTCRA Inc.) Info
www.aftcra.org.au

 

[NCHERPS]

Expansa1,
They are stunners! The mating shot really shows them in good light and the pink hue underlying is awesome.
I have seen T+ albino blood pythons before, and they sure have the same charactoristics as them.

Neil

 

[flavirufus]

Hi Craig,

My understanding is that Tyrosinase is an enzyme used to catalyse the production of melanin and other related pigments. Tyrosinase negative albinos don't produce functional tyrosinase and, therefore, don't produce melanin and the related pigments. A tyrosinase positive animal can produce some melanin-like compounds, but not all of them, as there is a defective step somewhere along the line. As a result, you get animals that have more pigment than those that are tyrosinase negative, but less pigment than a normal animal.

Whilst, as you point out, the presence or absence of a functional form of the enzyme tyrosinase is controlled by genes (and can be explained by Mendelian genetics), you don't actually have to test for the presence or absence of the alleles on the genes to test for Tyrosinase. You can simply test for the presence of the enzyme itself by taking a sample from the animal, mixing it with the appropriate combination of chemicals, and seeing whether melanin is produced. This is a considerably more simple process in some animals than DNA analysis, but I'm not sure about snakes.

Hope I made sense that time?

Matt

 

[hey_im_sam]

Makes sense to me matt. One thing I've wondered (and then always forgotten to check) is how hard it would be to genetically test for heterozygosity. I suppose you'd not only have to have the species genome mapped, but then know the location of the exact allele. A lot of work I guess, but I'm sure it's possible - they can test amniotic fluid for presence of defects now, which would be the same process (i think ). You'd think someone in Europe or the states would get onto it, there are a lot of species when spending 100 grand to be able to tell if they're hets or not would certainly pay off, but perhaps not as many if it's a ^10 more than that

 

[ihaveherps]

would there be anywhere to go with this morph? I mean to say, could these animals be used as a stepping stone to other morphs, as i am sure US breeders would have done so if it is possible. Does anyone know of any such breeding programs ?

 

[Skorpious]

Either way they are very nice expansa1!

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

I dont have to ask anybody anything. I know how albinism works.I am still not convinced. Nothing about that animal show to me that it is a T+ animal. It looks merely like a lighter variation. I dont just take peoples word for it. Sure the barkers have done lots of work on pythons, but there has been no skin samples taken and analysed for the presence of tyrosinase. You know what they say, assumption is the mother of all f ups!!! Regardeless, they are still good looking animals. There are just suddenly too many of these so called morphs around. Its as if every animal that looks different have become a so called morph. Believe me I love morphs and will soon be producing my own designer snakes!!!! If its proven over some generations then I will believe this. And by the way Flavirufus did you get that information out of a book???? :wink:

 

[BROWNS]

Expansa1,are these now proven and definitely tyrosinaise positive as described by the Barkers in your post?I'm sure you've proved these to be recessive but are they in fact a form of albino?...cheers

Yes Browns the Caramel's are a Tyrosinase + Albino. The darker snake in the photo did have blotches (patterning) but it was just going through a shed and the patterning was hard to see!

M Hunter if you don't need to ask questions and are the albino expert why ask the question????These have been proven as mentioned by the breeders,perhaps they could explain it for you and maybe postpics of hets etc

 

[zulu]

re about

Thanks for the pics expansa,that first pic is a touchdown!!

 

[flavirufus]

Hi MH,

Most of my information tends to come from books, the internet and chatting to more experienced people. Where does yours come from? If you're implying that that I didn't go into a lab an work it out myself, then you'd be completely correct :lol:

Craig should be able to confirm this, but I believe the caramel trait is showing a simple Mendelian mode of inheritance. This has lead him to deduce that its an inheritable morph and his discussions with Dave Barker have further led him to conclude that they're t+ albinos. I don't think he'd be swearing his life on the fact, but is suggesting that's the most likely explanation. Also, this morph hasn't just appeared, as Craig has been breeding it for many years now.

Matt

 

[expansa1]

I dont have to ask anybody anything. I know how albinism works.I am still not convinced. Nothing about that animal show to me that it is a T+ animal. It looks merely like a lighter variation. I dont just take peoples word for it. . There are just suddenly too many of these so called morphs around. Its as if every animal that looks different have become a so called morph. If its proven over some generations then I will believe this.

You don't have to take anyone's word for it but as I said, it has been proven over six years of selective breeding, works exactly to Mendel's theory and is a genetic colour mutation. Two normal looking hets crossed with each other produces 25% Caramel, 25%normal and 50%hets. A Caramel crossed with a 'normal' produces 100% hets. A Caramel and a het produces 50% Caramel, 50% het. A Caramel crossed with a Caramel produces 100% Caramels. Mendel's theory would not work if they were just lighter locality variations.

We are about 10 to 15 years behind the U.S.A as far as producing colour morphs in Australia, but hey, it is going to happen regardless of whether you want it to or not!

As I said it has been proven through selective breeding for six years and it really makes no difference to me, whether you agree or not.
Good luck with your designer colour morphs.
Kind regards,
Craig
Expansa1

 

[Rossagon]

Well said!! here here Expansa!!

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Still would like to see the blood work done. That is more proof to me. Just talikng out of a scientific point of view. Yes browns, you have this idea in your head that I know everything about albinos. Its like you who think you know everything about jungles? I never said I know everything about morphs, every day I learn new things!!! Its a sad day indeed when you think you know everything in the industry. And you have this silly little habit of attacking people on the net. Just voicing my opinion as you so often do!!!

Expansa- there are other types of genetic defects that also happen according to mendelian law!! Have you ever thought that that might be a hypomelanistic condition as there are black eyes in those animals and a reduced pattern? Just want to discuss this topic a bit more?

 

[steve6610]

And you have this silly little habit of attacking people on the net. Just voicing my opinion as you so often do!!!

and you have this silly little habit of always trying to prove people wrong, i've watched your posts over the last few months and you are always trying to make other people out to be idiots, but it only proves one thing, and most that read your posts will know what i mean....
and just so you know, i also have the right to voice my opinion.......

cheers,
steve..........

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Ok Steve

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Just one more thing! I hope you dont just accept everything you read on the net? There is a difference between attacking and questioning information? :wink:

 

[BROWNS]

You are the one always quoting albino tit bits etc and say you've bred many morphs so i go on what i here comes from via your mouth on the net which is just the net after all no need to get yur nickers twisted :lol:

You're constantly condascending,telling people they are right and wrong and and not believing things such as the hypo carpets for example or t+ albinos in this case when the proof is written in front of you and the line has been proven as you suggested.

Just one other thing where at all did i attack you in this thread?You questioned me and then said you din't need to ask questions and that you knew albinos did you not??I know i've had a good dig at your expense a few times which i might add i thoroughly enjoy but you're the one who attacked me on the net very first if i'm not mistaken :wink:

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Ok Browns. And you believe in all these things. I see a big issue with the whole morph boom. I see a real problem in the near future, even as soon as next year. Ill explain, A lot of people dont know enough about morphs, of course our reptile community are such stand up citizens that there will definately be people who will try to sell off normal snakes as Hets for some morph. I am trying to get as much info out there to educate people as there are a lot of people who just believe blindly what gets written on the net. Not everyone knows stuff like you and me. As I own some of these valuable snakes I merely want to keep it in a positive light for you guys who still have to get into it. And I am sure you will agree that there are lots of none fake morphs out there. All i can say is be careful about what you read. I have already mailed Expansa about this topic and he fully understands. You do as much attacking as I on this forum and its always about the same thing. Misinformation!!!!! I hope all of you can understand my point. The internet is a very impersonal place to communicate.
By the way I am taking orders for definite het for albino carpets for next year!!! :wink:

 

[expansa1]

Ok Browns. And you believe in all these things. I see a big issue with the whole morph boom. I see a real problem in the near future, even as soon as next year. Ill explain, A lot of people dont know enough about morphs, of course our reptile community are such stand up citizens that there will definately be people who will try to sell off normal snakes as Hets for some morph. I am trying to get as much info out there to educate people as there are a lot of people who just believe blindly what gets written on the net. Not everyone knows stuff like you and me. As I own some of these valuable snakes I merely want to keep it in a positive light for you guys who still have to get into it. And I am sure you will agree that there are lots of none fake morphs out there. All i can say is be careful about what you read. I have already mailed Expansa about this topic and he fully understands. You do as much attacking as I on this forum and its always about the same thing. Misinformation!!!!! I hope all of you can understand my point. The internet is a very impersonal place to communicate.
By the way I am taking orders for definite het for albino carpets for next year!!! :wink:

Hi Moreliahunter,
Of course there are going to be unscrupulous people in any industry/hobby where money is concerned.
At the end of the day, it is the sellers reputation that is at stake the same as mine is. I am not new to the herp community and have been breeding reptiles for over 30 years now and have built up a reputation for being honest and genuinely interested in furthering the study of reptiles including conservation issues, and have written many caresheets, some published, on different reptile species.

If I say that they are guaranteed hets, then I stand by my word!!!
If I have sold some as possible hets then that too is what they are.

When you send money interstate to a breeder before you have received the reptile then you are taking a risk. 99.9% of the time the transaction goes smoothly, but sometimes doesn't. The seller's reputation is then damaged and as the word gets around, will be doing well to sell another animal again, especially to anyone interstate. Accepting the word of anyone selling reptiles is also a risk. I know that it is sometimes difficult to take someone's word for it, but sometimes you have to also take into account the person's reputation and standing in the herp world.

Regards,

Craig

 

[TrueBlue]

mh,- you make me laugh sometimes. The problem I see is that you are new to the herp scene in oz and yet you dictate to everyone as if you are all that. As you have said before I do not know you, and as far as I know your greatest herp acheivment is holding your neigbours pet ball python back where you came from.? Buying and keeping a few expensive animals means absolutly nothing, anyone with enough money can buy themselves into any industry and it still means jack. In fact some of your posts I have already stated that IMO they sound like inexperiance not experiance.? The herp industry in oz is a very clicky afare indeed, and you who is not known at all seems to think he knows all. Chill out.!