albino jungle

[mrmikk]

Its illegal Aust wide to cross breed reptiles!
NPWL are doing a lot of research on identifiying cross species through DNA.
They are already useing it for court cases with proving tproof he reptiles didnt come from the breeders they stated.
Jason

NO disrespect Jason, but the NSW Govt are funding this kind of thing?, What a waste of taxpayer dollars that would be much better spent beefing up Customs ability to prevent the entry of pests into this country.

 

[rockman]

You may have to give your male a break , he will all shagged out .
After all the different sorts of carpets , do you think he will ever be able to go back just shagging his own kind .All those nice colours of the jungles and diamonds , he will never look at a darwin again .
HA HA HA

And i'll be one of those breeding pure darwins. But lets see what happens. Only time will tell.

 

[cement]

Here is a scene I have come across. Tweed valley, Stokers Siding, I am walking through the cow paddocks to my neighbours house and on his property up in a tree is a Bredli laying up next to a dull coloured coastal. We didn't know anything about how snakes bred or that they were even breeding, we just caught them and moved them of his property because his kids played in that spot. The next day we caught the bredli again crossing the road, so we took it off the road (thinking we were doing it a favour) and put it further up in the bush. Couple of days later it was dead, run over, on the road.

Few years later, I am asked by a cuz to come with him to a breeders house, he bought a Bredli from someone on the central Coast. Few years later again he moves to Queensland. What happens? his Bredli escapes. I spent a week looking for it when I was up there not long ago as it has been sighted by his neighbour and is apparantly doing ok. I was keen to remove it from the wild because of these problems I now am aware of as I am now into snakes.

This is two true accounts, I can't say these snakes bred, I don't know but I bet my last dollar that escapees HAVE bred with wild stock and created hybrids.

This is one reason why we should to keep our captive stock pure, it may be (one day) the only place you'll see one. Albino's can always be bred with normals to get back strong healthy bloodlines, its irrellevant to this arguement, albinos arent hybrid.

 

[indicus]

MH; the relevance of this discussion; is not whether private keepers will now, or in the future; be responsible towards releasing captive bred Morelia back into the wild!!!
You and myself are not in the position to say whether this will happen either way; so lets not speculate any further......
As expressed; the captive breeding/propagation of many species has been used to restock areas in the wild; both here and overseas;
where a particular need to do so has arisen; this cannot be argued......
Should the need arise; or given the opportunity; it is of importance to keep our lines pure as possible; whether it will happen or wont.....simple!!!
We all can clearly see some very sound reasoning as to the importance of maintaining lines that are kept pure as possible; and issues/problems; that may arise from creating Hybrids/crosses......
You have yet again; failed to address any of these issues (IMO one should); even though it has been pointed out to you; by keepers here and overseas.
To take it upon yourself (and others) to produce these hybrids/crosses; shows a blatant disregard for our unique fauna; and IMO; to knowingly do so is criminal!!!
It's beyond me; that those; responsible for licensing within your state allow those like yourself to carry out such foolish practises?; whether your state recognises subspecies or not; is irreverent.....
Can you deny having ever attempted to KNOWINGLY breed subspecies; with the aim to create hybrids or crosses?
MH; 'lets not beat around the bush'....I believe you do; have a sound knowledge (let me not isault your intellegence) of Morelia; and am sure as a keeper who maintains a better then average collection of various subspecies; can see the 'oblivious differences between them; so find your reasoning to do so "questionable"; as do I find your "excuse"
MH - "I will change my mind once there is conclusive genetic data with enough different genetic markers to definitely separate the sub species."
MH - "I believe people will pay more something that is pretty"
MH - "People will pay for anything that is spectacular regardless of its origin"
MH - "How can I be in it to make money if my snakes are worthless?????"....So it's not for financial gain?; see why one finds it confusing then?
I don't have a problem with anyone earning from their hobby; it's the creating of hybrids/crosses that is inexcuseable.
You are correct; I don't know you; but can only base an opinion; on what you yourself have stated?....have you mislead me?
No I don't know how many locality animals are bred by you; but sorry; with your outlook/views on Morelia; can only leave me feeling;
that your lines of locality Morelia can be considered 'questionable' at best.
I'm sorry as i feel i have wasted your time and mine; no use can come from "banging my head against a wall"
besides a headache

 

[OzGecko]

Please show me one sound species that was bred in private hands by private keepers, not governmental funding that has ever been released into the wild. And even better would be an example of a snake???? And this excludes any form of zoo. I am talking private, like you and me????????

A few years back a woman down here was breeding SA Murray Darlings to release back onto her property in the Adelaide hills, where they were once found. No funding from Zoo's or government agencies, with approval of NPWS to do so (release the animals).

 

[Jozz]

Did she lose her whole collection from disease?

 

[Frozenmouse]

i if you notice on some of the american herp store web sites they have advertisments saying things like "dna proven pure coastal" ect. and the more % pure the bloodline of the jag is the more expensive they are ,this to me says there is ecconomic preassure on having pure animals starting to occur in the usa, so if the hard working aussie breeders that are sticking to pure lines with desired traits, ie, jag , striping, ect will eventually end up with much more valuable snakes. not only from the point of view of ecconomics but from a natural history point of view. maybe.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Can anyone give me a single solid reason for why animals in captivity or in the wild should be kept pure?

 

[caustichumor]

At the moment It's the law... Solid enough?

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I'm not talking about legal ramifications, of course if its against the law (in some states at least), the court will find such an act guilty. But that still doesn't determine if it is in fact right or wrong, morally. Do you base your moral system upon the law and modify it when the laws change? Or is your moral system independent of the law?

 

[Frozenmouse]

Can anyone give me a single solid reason for why animals in captivity or in the wild should be kept pure?

No one probably can give a good reason right now , but if we look back on australia's history of playing with nature like the introduction of feral animals ect it can sometimes be hard to forsee disasters such as cane toads and rabbits ect. and even what happens to native species when given altered habbitats eg red kangaroo s when they have ample water all year round , also there is the possability of extordinary questions that can be answered when we unlock the gene s in some pure strains of animals that could be lost forever when mixing them, but as for a firm answer on why we shouldnt,, but you could also ask what happens when they are not kept pure? who knows. so its a tough question you have asked

 

[ad]

No I don't know how many locality animals are bred by you; but sorry; with your outlook/views on Morelia; can only leave me feeling;
that your lines of locality Morelia can be considered 'questionable' at best.

Lmao - Careful Indicus, I suggested this to a newbie once who was so keen on producing hybrids and he had a hissy fit that is still going at last check! lol
Funnily enough he has changed his views on hybrids apparently, or deserted his poor mate MH - who, in the face of overwhelming common sense, still insists he is on the right path.

 

[indicus]

Why?
To maintain a species integrity and its bio-diversity....
'Pure' -to be free from corruption or contamination.
eg; If in North Queensland I'd like to know I can see a jungle carpet; if in central Australia, a Bredli; in N.S.W a Diamond and so on....each unique, and special in it's own way; adapted and suited to the environment in which it lives; or originates from.
Lets not forget mention; that the more we (humans)....manipulate nature; the more screwed up it becomes...look at the many problems expressed in examples of other cross breeds.
Just for example sake; mix a half a dozen different colours of 'play- doe' together....looks good for a while; rainbow coloured and all...Keep mixing together; what do you end up with; yes that's right; a crappy colour; that shows no resemblance to any of the pure colours it originated from....not the best example, but none the less.
Oh well Ad; you just cant help but upset some people; sometimes it's just unavoidable

 

[liberty]

just on the topic of evolution and not wanting to change it, do u think that the changing weather patterns will affect the locals or purity of the snakes in question.
i only ask this as here in sydney we are starting to have the wether that was in qld about 5 years ago. so does this possibly mean that differing types of reptiles will be changing their typical or once thought to be locallities??

cheers

 

[lector]

I wouldnt think that a whole buncha diamond pythons would migrate up from syd just cos its getting a little stormy. But stranger things have been known to happen.lol
One would assume that if whether patterns changed the animals would have to evolve to meet the new conditions etc etc and not just seek the sun by moving to queensland or wherever.

 

[Morelia_Hunter]

Indicus please state your questions again as i can not be bothered reading all of those replies again?
And its true that because you think i am wrong in my opinions, does not mean i'm wrong???
The reptile hobby is a evolving entity, because i grew up in a different country than you and have different views on life and how things are done does not make me wrong. Personal attack is the way of people that think they know everything and have an overinflated view of their own opinion. I know there are others that feel the same as me and are just trying to avoid conflict, well i love conflict!! So bring it on. There are thousands of enthusiatst worldwide that share my views and that pay top dollar for hybrids as their colour, pattern, temparent and behaviour are far superior to some of the natural occuring animals. These animals are hardier and dont have some of the husbandry rules associated with some of their locality specific counterparts. Its only in Australia that people think that this would be different, the holy grail of reptiles!!!!
And Pugsly, just by the way. The amount of animals that a person keeps does not reflect his ability to keep reptiles or what he knows!!! I know many keepers that keep no reptiles and are some of the top authorities on reptiles.

 

[Frozenmouse]

i got it now, lol

 

[B-Factor]

I am hearing all of the same excuses I hear in the US from hybrid breeders.

For anyone who thinks it would be more "exiting" to have a herpmarket like the one we have, they should be carefull what they wish for.

The longterm damage to a captive gene pool that these animals represent is hard to comprehend,

When I was much younger and just starting to breed herps 12 years ago. I produced two clutches of DiaomondXCoastal intergrades.. At the time I thought it fine to do since they intergrade in the wild, at least that was how I justified it to myself at the time.

I produced around 40 intergrades and of them honestly for what they were, so if others are to be believed they should not have caused any problem right?

I later sold the adults and I actually watched as the new owner bred the male toa female coastal and then simply sold them as coastals, wehn he knew exactly what they were.

I sold a few to the local pet shops as well, also telling them exactly what they were. I think the shops perhaps did not want to bother explaining to people what they were so they also simply sold them as coastal carpets.

It was after seeing all of these animals that I hade "honestly represented" being mis-represented by the very poeple I sold them to, that I decided to never again work with intergrades.

And one last point to illustrate the loingterm effects of this short sighted breeding. There is currently an intergrade that I propduced in 1995 that is for sale at a local shop and to no surprise at all it is being sold as a coastal!!!

So even ater 12 years these animals are still changing hands and still being mis-represented. Still causing problems to anyone who wants pure stock.
Nick

Nick, I heard you had done this but I didn't want to believe the source. Glad you saw the light.

 

[bwana]

Hi All,
Tremain, I think you might as well bang your head against a brick wall.
These people are not herpetologists.
They have no real understanding of the species they keep and they will sell to those people who know even less.
To them money is the only motivator, not love or passion for the animals they keep.
What's in it for the animals? What does the species have to gain?
It is man's responsibility to care for the earth and all of it's inhabitants. We have lost so many species already.
It's our duty to conserve and protect what we have left.
Cheers

 

[indicus]

MH - I'm quite sure; that you have; read the entire thread; so please forgive me when I presume your poor response, and failure in addressing any of the issues/questions raised by myself and others in this thread;
can only point out; that you have not even considered the consequences of your actions and others;
with regards to the breeding hybrids; and the problems; that may arise within the future.
Ok....you have informed us all of the financial gain in breeding hybrids; 'several' times in this thread; got that; point taken.
Why would you refer in terms such as; 'conflict?', and statements such as 'bring it on?'
Given the fact you were once the president of VHS; I would have expected better.....(what a joke)
Was I presumptuous?; in thinking you may be able to offer advice/solutions in how we as a industry/hobby; could better tackle the issue of managing the influx of hybrids filtering into the market place.....obviously not?. Ignorance; really is bliss; isn't it?.
One can only hope that those in positions to influence; are to be seen; to possess a balanced view; knowledge and skills required; to allow the industry/hobby; as whole; towards taking 'positive' steps with regards the future of reptile keeping within this country; and it's management.
Your defensive attitude, and failure to answer any of my questions; clearly illustrates your inability to be considered worthy enough; to hold any position of standing.
Keep in mind MH; my ability to keep reptiles is not in question; but your inability!!!; to offer any worthy input; other then pointing out your potential financial gain; 'repeatedly'.......is!!!
Are we to argue to and throw?; or can one be mature enough?; to discuss the subject; with the aim towards finding solutions to the problems; that we as a industry now face?....may be not hey?