America civilized

[Kersten]

What American members? They all get chased away by some of the narrow minded lynch mob members on this forum.

Nah....it's just the South Africans who smuggle GTPs in to the country and mate their albino Darwins with anything that'll have them (including their GTPs?) that we try to chase away They just never get the message though! :lol:

I don't know what's funnier....the narrow minded folk judging all Americans by a few poor examples, or the narrow minded folk judging all APSers by the few poor examples who were judging all Americans :lol:

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I guess you are on of those that judge then hey Kersten?

 

[Kersten]

It's human nature to judge in some way. You see a person walking down the street dressed in a suit, carrying a briefcase and you assume they're a businessman....that's a judgement. My kids come to me because they're fighting, I listen to them and realise that they're both in the wrong and punish them accordingly....that too, is a judgement. So hell yeah, I judge. To pretend otherwise would be pointless You say it like it's a bad thing. I can only assume you're referring to the fact I find it amusing that there's a bunch of people getting on their high horses about some practices they don't agree about, and making exactly the same sort of generalisations about eachother. Honey, that's not judging, that's recognition of supreme irony :lol:

 

[moosenoose]

I was going to put everything I was going to display at the next Herp Meet into 25mm+ polytube with capped ends and a couple of breather-holes drilled into the ends (it was also so the suckers had to lie in a straight line) But after reading this thread it looks like a few people might object to it

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I would not say its generalisations, its a mere fact that American Herpetoculturists do not venture on this forum because of some of the abuse and unfounded criticism they receive. When our laws do not apply to them. Why do you think some members have appologised for the comments of others? Its for the same reason that herpetologists do not bother adding their input into threads on this forum. Members are indoctrinated by the opinions of some of the more worshipped members just because they dont know any better. I am not generalising, you go and find one post by an American that has not turned into a purity debate on this forum. Where do you stand Kersten? What is your opinion on this?

 

[Kersten]

Sweeping statements lumping all American herpers into one category and all Australian herpers/APS members into another are generalisations. Perpetuating the idea that Americans all carry out their business at expos in the manner shown in the initial post is a generalisation. People apologising on behalf of the entire forum as though we all share one eyed anti-American sentiments is yet another generalisation. Ironically, I didn't refer to your earlier post as a generalisation - this is why there was a seperate paragraph for it.

As for the unfounded critiscism that American herpers receive (yet another generalisation, ALL American herpers? Really?), while in some respects it may be unfounded....your generalising again in assuming they never post anything worthy of someone here disagreeing with. We have disagreements here all the time, it isn't only Americans who find themselves on the receiving end. While we're here....not every post by Americans ends in a purity debate as not every post by Americans is about hybridised animals. When they post pics of hybrids, there'll be an argument....it's the same as when Aussie herpers post pics of hybrids.

Where do I stand on what exactly? I've never been one to hide my opinion so I'm surprised the question needs to be asked :lol:

Sorry....it's just been pointed out to me that no one has acknowledged Moosenoose's revolutionary herp display product. Brilliant planning Moosey....when you've got it up and running put me down for 2 :lol:

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

You make valid points. It just feels like it always heads there when an American topic arrises. We can always learn no matter how long we have been keeping reptiles for.

 

[GreggMadden]

Well I am guilty of being an American... I am a Yankee on top of it... Straight from the streets of New York City... LOL
Just to clear some things up...

Live feeding is not illegal here... I have fed some of my vipers live rodents... Whats the big deal??? Its over pretty fast... Plus you get to see how your reptile would actually hunt its meal... Is it entertaining??? Yes it is... I am sure most of us have watched a nature show where a croc drags a zebra into the water by its head... Why did you not shut off the tvor change the channel??? Because you were entertained... Please, do not make it out to be a bad thing that people are actually entertained by nature no matter how cruel it can be...

King cobras do not do well on rodent diets and some never convert to feeding on dead prey items... That is just the facts of keeping a species that is mostly wild caught...

Species from Australia were not always illegal to have imported to the States...

Not all Americans are dirtbags when it comes to reptile keeping... We have our share of them but they really are the minority... The dirtbags really do not last long in the hobby...

I am sure there are some Australian keepers/breeders who are just as bad as our dirtbags...

So how do I feel about the photos???
The "cramped" cages are display cases... Could they be bigger??? Sure... Are they a health hazard??? No way...

The king cobra eating an albino boa is not offensive or anything someone should be brought up on charges for...

The steamed ball python that is actually a rainbow boa is in a display cage as well... It was obviously being kept humid because that is what that species requires...

Honestly, the person who started this thread seems to be somewhat ignorant but I will not say all Australians are the same way... Infact, in my experience it has been quite the opposite... Most of the Australian reptile keepers I have come into contact with have been very knowledgable and not very anti-American... Well atleast not to my face... LOL

Anyway, this has been an interesting read... I actually like this place... My skin is thick so I doubt I will be running off when someone else posts so silly thread about how bad Americans are... LOL

 

[Palex134]

Good post^

Since when are snakes claustrophobic? I'm pretty sure putting a hidebox in an enclosure is similar principal. Anyways, these temporary displays are just that...temporary.

Lastly, as a former American, where does all this anti-Americanism stem from?

 

[Sdaji]

Lastly, as a former American, where does all this anti-Americanism stem from?

Probably jealousy more than anything else, but there is also a bit of a culture clash.

 

[beatlloydy]

Public forums are all alike...I have been on running and MTB forums and there are those who are genuinely helpful, those who use their knowledge to talk down to people and those who just want to get people to react..The fact is we need to look at the individual and not the race or colour of their skin...personally I have an issue with the size of the displays ..and I think feeding a nice snake like that to the cobra is a poor display of American excessiveness...and that is one thing the industrialists of America are guilty of (over the top showmanship)...as individuals I meet and work with I have only met friendly open people.

As a newbie I will have to reserve my judgement on how we in Australia display our wildlife as I have yet to attend an expo.

 

[GSXR_Boy]

Lastly, as a former American, where does all this anti-Americanism stem from?

Giving us shows like MASH, bold and the beautiful, Beverly hillbillies, NCIS etc etc and then the countless re runs of them :lol: ( i'm joking i don't have a problem with America)

 

[slither]

sdaji couldnt of sumed it up better nothing more needs to be said

 

[never_stopped_me]

Well I am guilty of being an American... I am a Yankee on top of it... Straight from the streets of New York City... LOL
Just to clear some things up...

Live feeding is not illegal here... I have fed some of my vipers live rodents... Whats the big deal??? Its over pretty fast... Plus you get to see how your reptile would actually hunt its meal... Is it entertaining??? Yes it is... I am sure most of us have watched a nature show where a croc drags a zebra into the water by its head... Why did you not shut off the tvor change the channel??? Because you were entertained... Please, do not make it out to be a bad thing that people are actually entertained by nature no matter how cruel it can be...

And here is one of the many differences between herp husbandry in Australia and America. Here, it is seen as cruel to the prey animal and potentially extremely dangerous to the snake to feed it live prey.

Here, it is illegal to take animals from the wild. We don't have the experience of keeping wild-caught snakes that you guys clearly do, because here it's not allowed.

Here, we need a license to keep almost all reptiles, and the keeping of herps is heavily regulated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't the case in most parts of America, is it?

Here (and I can only speak for Victoria here), we are only allowed to keep native animals. This is clearly not the case in America, or else those jungles wouldn't be there.

Everything in this thread can be put down to cultural difference. Not all Australians agree on how herps should be kept, and I'm sure not all Americans agree, either, but there are obviously differences in what is generally accepted and acceptable. Does this make either country wrong?

 

[notechistiger]

Here, it is illegal to take animals from the wild. We don't have the experience of keeping wild-caught snakes that you guys clearly do, because here it's not allowed.

This is incorrect. Many people with appropriate licenses can collect animals from the wild- and can keep them with a lot of success.

 

[Kersten]

Actually, not everything can be put down to a cultural difference at all. All of the issues which have been discussed in this thread are personal differences. Whether people choose to admit it or not, live feeding happens all the time in Australia. And while you won't find it being advertised with any regularity, I would bet there are American keepers who object to live feeding. For the most part, those who object to it do so because they personally dislike the practice. How hypocritical would it be of someone to say they had a problem with live feeding because they consider it cruel, or potentially dangerous to the animal being fed; but then turn around and say they don't care if someone else does it in America because it's legal there? The idea that the fact it's legal makes it okay is frankly a joke. Many things which are not necessarily acceptable practices are legal in many other places. Just as many things which perhaps should be legal are not.

I see we're still going with the idea that anyone who dislikes these practices is anti-American. Apparently also jealous to boot :lol: Could it be....and I'm going out on a limb here....that the majority of people who have posted critiscism of the practice of live feeding, or the crapmed enclosures have done so because it's the practice they find objectionable and not the country it takes place in! Good god, surely not! No doubt there is the odd xenophobe who complains for the sake of complaining...but assuming that any negative feelings toward practices which some find abhorrent is the result of jealousy or American bashing is a stretch. Jealous of what exactly? Is someone who rails against live feeding jealous of the fact the people doing it are able to? :lol:

Oh and just to clarify....I really couldn't give a damn about the feeding or the enclosures personally. It's not something I would do, or something I would want to see....but you show me a wild BHP who gets their snakes baked and served on a platter.

 

[serpenttongue]

I have to agree with Gordo here... I have seen a huge olive python happily enter a box which would be just as cramped as some of these...

Yes, but a hide box gives the snake security. A clear plastic box, that exposes the snake from all angles, does not.

 

[Dipcdame]

You have GOT to be JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[never_stopped_me]

Actually, not everything can be put down to a cultural difference at all. All of the issues which have been discussed in this thread are personal differences. Whether people choose to admit it or not, live feeding happens all the time in Australia. And while you won't find it being advertised with any regularity, I would bet there are American keepers who object to live feeding. For the most part, those who object to it do so because they personally dislike the practice. How hypocritical would it be of someone to say they had a problem with live feeding because they consider it cruel, or potentially dangerous to the animal being fed; but then turn around and say they don't care if someone else does it in America because it's legal there? The idea that the fact it's legal makes it okay is frankly a joke. Many things which are not necessarily acceptable practices are legal in many other places. Just as many things which perhaps should be legal are not.

I actually pretty much made this point. I said not all Australians agree, which covers the Australians who support live feeding, and I said not all Americans agree, which covers the Americans who don't. I didn't say that it was okay because it's legal at all, in any of my arguments. My point was not anti-American and I did not put forward an opinion on feeding snakes live prey. I made the point that overall the two cultures are different and hold different beliefs on what is acceptable and what is not, which is clearly what is causing this dispute. Hence, the arguments in this thread can be put down to an overall cultural difference.

And notechistiger, again I can only speak for Victoria, but here taking animals from the wild is exclusively the province of wildlife officers. The average herp keeper cannot take a snake from the wild, even on an advanced license.

 

[garycahill]

Yes, but a hide box gives the snake security. A clear plastic box, that exposes the snake from all angles, does not.

I agree with this as the snake can be seen, so it's not a "hide"
We all know that snakes will go into their hides when they feel stressed to hide, among other reasons.

I am not against this method of displaying them for short periods though.