Jungle_Freak
Very Well-Known Member
Just found some Oenpelli pics pics on the web site
Oenpelli Rock Python (Morelia oenpelliensis) / NATURE's WINDOW
Oenpelli Rock Python (Morelia oenpelliensis) / NATURE's WINDOW
Arnhem escarpment (baby Nawarran)
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Pythoninfinite
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Gordo, if they are as hard to find as the anecdotal evidence suggests, but the population is as you suggest it is, then 'poachers' will have little impact - they will collect very few animals. My view contrasts with yours re the impact of Cane Toads. The toads MUST have a serious negative impact on a top predator such as the OP, directly through killing young OPs which are likely to feed on them, and indirectly by altering the vertebrate (mammal, bird and lizard) populations. The flow-on effect of the Cane Toad invasion has to be massive, and if they don't kill pythons directly, they alter the structure and availability of food animal populations.
I'm sure I'll be pasted for being seen to condone 'poaching'... which I am not. I think, however, we need to look at the relative impacts of collecting an animal which may be there in reasonable numbers, but is almost impossible to find, versus the impact of altering the entire ecosystem in which a species lives, and on which it is entirely dependent, which Cane Toads do. It's a no brainer...
Jamie.
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Pythoninfinite
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Michael, what is the preferred food of adult Taipans? I'm guessing that rats & mice would feature heavily in settled areas? If they're anything like Pseudonaja, I'd say that baby Taipans would probably be skink feeders, (fast, with good eyesight, they can literally run them down) and graduate almost directly to mammals, primarily rodents. Small pythons do seem to have a taste for frogs though. I wonder about the difference in diet between primarily diurnal vs nocturnal species too... frogs would be available to pythons which are more active at night. I understand that baby CTs are active during the day as well, which is why they can cover all bases in terms of what they can kill.
Jamie.
Jamie.
ETs are mammal munchers from day one. They are diurnal, only active on very hot, balmy nights. The hatchlings are big enough to eat small mice, they actively forage during the day in search of ground-nesting mammals. I often found them with food in their bellies under sheets of tin, right next to empty melomys' nests. No doubt they take planigales and small antechinus as well. Adults feed on rats, small bandicoots and apparently also quails. Both juvs and adults never touch frogs or other reptiles.
I was just thinking, juvenile GTPs feed on frogs, yet their populations haven't been decimated.
I was just thinking, juvenile GTPs feed on frogs, yet their populations haven't been decimated.
waruikazi
Legendary
I really should put a disclaimer on the end of all my posts that everything i say is speculation and i really don't know much more about nawaran than the next person. I just have a personal interest.
I think the reason toads won't have had a direct impact on OP numbers is purely because of the habitat. Toads can not get up into most of the escarpment country. So the likely hood of the two species interacting is low. But i absolutely concede that they would have a flow on effect from other eco-systems.
The effect of poaching would be nearly impossible to quantify. But i can tell you 100% that there is a current black market that is looking for new Nawaran. When i caught the children's in this thread i had more than one person (who still thought it was an OP) trying to get it off me. One said he could get $10k for it and the other said he would split the $10k with me (i should have taken it... $5k for a childrens!!!
). I know other things too but i don't want my legs broken! Luckily/unluckily there are no secrets in a small community, if one is found anytime soon i will find out about it and if it is sold i will find out who sold it. I think poaching will be having a local effect on the population, these are (apparently) a very large, sp****ly populated and apparently slow maturing animal. A pair (or half a pair) of animals removed from any one location could cause the local extinction of the species. I also think that road kill could possibly have a similar impact. But i don't think the effects of poaching and the road toll are anything compared to the effects of changing fire regimes.
As for how big the population is or isn't. I think it is bigger and probably in better shape than we presume it is. Talking to herpers that don't frequent the forum and those that do i have heard about alot more being sighted in recent years (by people who know what they are looking for, god knows how many people have seen them but not known what they have found) than i thought there would have been. Some accounts i have written off as BS but it still leaves quite a few stories. Many with photographic evidence (young ones too, which means the population is still breeding).
A different species but still a good anecdote of what things are like out here. John Woinarski wrote off the Egernia (bellatorus) obirri as extinct i think in 2007 after extensive searching by people who know what they are doing. I have a photo from this year of one eating a snail (not my photo so i can't post it)! The land out here is so vast and inaccessable to people that we really can't know what the true state of play is.
Now i'm not saying everything is all hunky dorey with the West Arnhem Plateu. This is all speculation based on alot of anecdotal (possibly BS) stories. But think about it, the first unofficial recording of the OP was in the 40's, then nothing until the 70's! They have never been an easy snake to find, so why would they be easy to find now??
I've heard speculation that the toads have increased the numbers of coastal tais due to the toads destroying the populations of mulga snakes and other snake feeders. I have some weak anecdotal evidence to suggest this is the case in the NT also. That said there was an NT coastal tai (now that is a snake much less common than OP's) that was found this year that had eaten a toad (right down to its stomach) AND been run over by a car... But what was the killer blow?
Another interesting tidbit i've found, that i didn't know before, from talking to the TWP staff and other herpers is the toads have had an effect on some snake species that aren't amphibian feeders. The toads apparently work at a higher body temperature than our frogs and pythons mistake them for mammals. I haven't personally seen a python dead from toad ingestion but i don't doubt the people who have told me.
waruikazi
Legendary
And surely it would have to come down to the fact that toads can't get up into the trees. Same as they don't get up into the escarpment.
waruikazi
Legendary
Well there you go. Do you have any idea why they don't take toads? Could it be the body temp of toads?
Bax155
Very Well-Known Member
When I saw the word Nawarran I thought this thread would be a good read, I'm glad it's turned from a missed ID into a talk about OP's!!
Goodluck on the holy grail Gordo!!
Goodluck on the holy grail Gordo!!
No idea. Toads have been at IR for decades, so maybe the GTPs learned to avoid them. We don't really know if they had any impact on GTP population when they first got there. We still don't know the GTP population size today, so it would be hard to make any assessment.
waruikazi
Legendary
A bit like Oenpellis!!!
Australis
Almost Legendary
Pythons don't seem to be at particular threat in QLD at the hand of toads.
Forever the eternal optimist, I still find it hard to believe that Oenpelli's are "near the brink". I know many of you disagree, but...
We know how big Oenpelli's are at hatching. I cannot remember their specific measurements, however they are larger than any Australian snake - larger still than scrub or BHP's. These guys are likely to be eating mice from day one!
I agree, toads MAY have had an indirect impact on these snakes. But isn't this species the luckiest of all those inhabiting the Arhemland escarpment - large, capable of consuming a diverse range of prey; slow metabolic rate, capable of going long periods without food. Besides, a lot of minds have been trying to eradicate toads for a long while now and it hasn't happened. Toads have likely already had their greatest effect on species living there. We're not so worred about childrens pythons which we know DO feed on frogs.
Hopefully, Greg Miles will get some into captivity to establish a colony and so that we can actually learn something about this snake.
In the meantime, their must be a least one scientist willing to study this species. "Too hard" everyone says. Why? There is a female-biased sexual size dimorphism and we already know this species aggregates. Find a female (the hard part) and throw a transmitter in and hopefully she'll lead you to a bunch of horny males, who can be tracked and will hopefully lead you to more females - we don't know until we try.
Gordo has made some very valid points. These snakes weren't found until the 1970's (by westerners), they are obviously very good at not being found - and the inacesibilty of their range doesn't help.
I too would hate to see this snake disappear forever but, I just can't begin to speculate anything when we know nothing.
Rick Shine thought diamod pytohns were rare until he tracked them. Sure many people come across this species but look at the population of the south east - more than 4 million - not quite that many in Oenpelli... Same applies for green pythons, there are tonnes if you know when and where to look.
In Oenpelli's, given we know very little, this scenario could be equally as plausible as the "near extinction" scenario hypothesised by so many.
We know how big Oenpelli's are at hatching. I cannot remember their specific measurements, however they are larger than any Australian snake - larger still than scrub or BHP's. These guys are likely to be eating mice from day one!
I agree, toads MAY have had an indirect impact on these snakes. But isn't this species the luckiest of all those inhabiting the Arhemland escarpment - large, capable of consuming a diverse range of prey; slow metabolic rate, capable of going long periods without food. Besides, a lot of minds have been trying to eradicate toads for a long while now and it hasn't happened. Toads have likely already had their greatest effect on species living there. We're not so worred about childrens pythons which we know DO feed on frogs.
Hopefully, Greg Miles will get some into captivity to establish a colony and so that we can actually learn something about this snake.
In the meantime, their must be a least one scientist willing to study this species. "Too hard" everyone says. Why? There is a female-biased sexual size dimorphism and we already know this species aggregates. Find a female (the hard part) and throw a transmitter in and hopefully she'll lead you to a bunch of horny males, who can be tracked and will hopefully lead you to more females - we don't know until we try.
Gordo has made some very valid points. These snakes weren't found until the 1970's (by westerners), they are obviously very good at not being found - and the inacesibilty of their range doesn't help.
I too would hate to see this snake disappear forever but, I just can't begin to speculate anything when we know nothing.
Rick Shine thought diamod pytohns were rare until he tracked them. Sure many people come across this species but look at the population of the south east - more than 4 million - not quite that many in Oenpelli... Same applies for green pythons, there are tonnes if you know when and where to look.
In Oenpelli's, given we know very little, this scenario could be equally as plausible as the "near extinction" scenario hypothesised by so many.
waruikazi
Legendary
And i'll be your assistant to your assistant!
Yah, it would be fun but in reality it wouldn't be much of a science. It would take a brave man / woman to take up such project in such wast and inaccessible area. Dave Wilson sunked his teeth into fairly ambitious project with GTPs, at least he had plenty of snakes to work with. I met a guy who proposed to do a MSc on the Julia Creek Dunnart - he only ever trapped one specimen! I don't think he submitted theses. LOL
waruikazi
Legendary
I think it would be incredibly time consuming, expensive, frustrating and the possibility of failure incredibly high (from not finding what you're looking for)!
And a you would have all the jealousies from other herpersgetting in your way! Not good reasons to not do it though!
pythons73
Very Well-Known Member
A little of topic...But John Weigel and others did take a while to discover the Rough Scaled Pythons..It took them a few days-nights to find some..WHY cant a group of people find and track any..I would love to see a population in captivity for all us to admire-own and learn from them...I do hope sometime in the near future something-someone can track and record some information...How can anyone determine what size population there is with Oenpelli or even Greens in the wild..Estimate..
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