Bureaucratic propaganda...

[Pythoninfinite]

Did anyone see the ABC 7.30 Report last night - the story on the DNA profiling being done by DEC in WA? It had footage of the 'good guys' up trees sampling DNA from Black Cockatoos, holding snakes and swabbing their mouths, and rifling through people's enclosures with torches etc...

I have no problem with profiling slow breeding species such as Black Cockatoos, and other animals which are rare or threatened, but the emphasis on species of reptiles which have large clutches, or breed frequently, distorts the picture of these species, both in the wild and in captivity. It mentioned that SW Carpets (M. imbricata) are a threatened species... why then is an unlimited wild take, by licensed takers, allowed, and for the last 7 years?

The whole presentation was designed to, yet again, paint reptile keepers as just one step away from murderers in the world of criminality. WA wildlife officers already have a reputation for thuggish behaviour, and they operate at the very edge of what is permissible in a modern, so-called, free society. When you get a licence in most states, you effectively sign away your right to privacy in your own home, but in WA they take it to the limit of acceptable behaviour.

It isn't unusual for up to three officers to turn up at the homes of keepers, on the weekend, and insist on access to inspect your animals and paperwork, regardless of the inconvenience to the licensee. Suggestions that they make an appointment at a more convenient time are met with suggestions that your lack of cooperation will be noted - basically that is just threatening behaviour and should not be tolerated.

The whole bureaucratic machine in WA is built around heavy handed, intimidating and threatening behaviour, directed against people engaging in a perfectly legal activity.

The concern is that they are encouraging other jurisdictions to take up similar attitudes. DECCW NSW has had representatives in WA looking at the DNA profiling techniques used in that state, and it seems this is just a part of a push to put more pressure on keepers of animals which are killed in their millions on public roads every year.

The habitual use of keepers as negative propaganda material by these bureaucracies should be challenged, but it seems it never will be...

J

 

[waruikazi]

I just watched it on iview.

I dunno Jamie. Poaching and smuggling are pretty major activities that go on in our hobby and other wildlife keeping hobbies. Anythign that makes these activies a bit more difficult are a good thing in my eyes.

 

[ozziepythons]

Unfortunately the behaviour of wildlife officers being thuggish, invasive and all that is nothing new. It was apparently worse many years back in NSW, where in one case an officer was involved in reptile theft after hours following an inspection (source not verified). Here in SA the wildlife officers have done unannounced inspections but this is usually done when a keeper doesn't seem legitimate. Even in such cases the officers conduct themselves in the upmost professional manner, none of this nightclub bouncer attitude rubbish.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Gordo, I tend to separate poaching and smuggling from the activities of hobbyists. Each activity is in a class of its own, and I would say that 'hobbyists' are rarely major poachers or smugglers. To imply that Stimson's and Carpets are major targets for smugglers is a nonsense, they have been readily available for decades, and are usually cheaper overseas than they are here.

The story about the effectiveness of current DNA databases is also highly suspect. They may have enough material for species such as black cockatoos, and the common reptiles, perhaps Stimson's Pythons, if they're lucky. The costs of obtaining the data, and the time and numbers involved, are huge. But I guess just the threat is effective in obtaining a prosecution, regardless of the legitimacy of the basis on which the threat is made. It's all about perception, not fact.

The fact is that most reptile keepers abide by the law as much as anyone else, the perception being created by these departments is always that reptile keepers are dodgey and need to be watched. It's a good story and it keeps us passive in the face of bureaucratic insult.

j

Jamie.

 

[waruikazi]

Jamie i am in the middle of a class and i'll have to make a longer comment on this later. But think of the RPM and albino smuggling that has without doubt been going on with carpets....

Gordo, I tend to separate poaching and smuggling from the activities of hobbyists. Each activity is in a class of its own, and I would say that 'hobbyists' are rarely major poachers or smugglers. To imply that Stimson's and Carpets are major targets for smugglers is a nonsense, they have been readily available for decades, and are usually cheaper overseas than they are here.

The story about the effectiveness of current DNA databases is also highly suspect. They may have enough material for species such as black cockatoos, and the common reptiles, perhaps Stimson's Pythons, if they're lucky. The costs of obtaining the data, and the time and numbers involved, are huge. But I guess just the threat is effective in obtaining a prosecution, regardless of the legitimacy of the basis on which the threat is made. It's all about perception, not fact.

The fact is that most reptile keepers abide by the law as much as anyone else, the perception being created by these departments is always that reptile keepers are dodgey and need to be watched. It's a good story and it keeps us passive in the face of bureaucratic insult.

j

Jamie.

 

[siouxie]

Jamie i am in the middle of a class and i'll have to make a longer comment on this later. But think of the RPM and albino smuggling that has without doubt been going on with carpets....

so, that's a customs matter, not state DEC officers concern - where's the conservation aspect of hassling someone over a smuggled jag? it's a different issue, and those in charge of smuggling investigations just turn a blind eye to when it comes to jags and gtp's. these officers aren't investigating smugglers, they're hassling private keepers.

 

[pilaga]

Nephurus wheeleri DNA testing in nsw soon.

 

[Bushman]

I agree that a unified national body needs to be formed to represent the rights of reptile keepers.
Jamie you're quite right that essentially law-abiding citizens like us are systematically having our rights infringed upon and to add insult to injury, we are often somewhat demonized in the popular press.
There are many reports of over-zealous officials and law-enforcers, encroaching on an Australian citizen's basic rights to privacy and consent to entry into your own home. Even police need search warrants and evidence of reasonable cause for suspicion of wrong-doing to demand entry without notice.
I've heard on good authority that the department have recruited ex-detectives to do the searches. I seriously doubt that the main qualification of these officers is to be able to identify reptile species on the spot.

Unfortunately the behaviour of wildlife officers being thuggish, invasive and all that is nothing new. It was apparently worse many years back in NSW, where in one case an officer was involved in reptile theft after hours following an inspection (source not verified). Here in SA the wildlife officers have done unannounced inspections but this is usually done when a keeper doesn't seem legitimate. Even in such cases the officers conduct themselves in the upmost professional manner, none of this nightclub bouncer attitude rubbish.

It's good to hear that there is due respect given to South Australian keepers as reported by Ozziepythons above. This should be how inspectors conduct themselves in other states as well and used as a national model (if this is indeed the case in S.A).

 

[Pythoninfinite]

A bit busy this afternoon, will get back to this later today... siouxie is correct - the issues surrounding the movement into and out of Australia of captive bred morphs have no relation to conservation in any sense. Captive bred reptiles have no context in 'conservation' as things stand at the moment. The debates about each shouldn't be confused.

J

 

[waruikazi]

Poaching and smuggling, i think, are driven mainly by the hobbiests. We provide the market for the animals that have been aquired ilegally. It's just unfortunate that with the current system the animals are so easily washed and a put into the system with permits. Where do you think all these locality specific animals come from? It's the elephant in the room that no one seems to talk about. I know better than most that permits to collect do exist, but i also know how hard they are to get and how the authorities don't like collected animals going into the pet trade.

Gordo, I tend to separate poaching and smuggling from the activities of hobbyists. Each activity is in a class of its own, and I would say that 'hobbyists' are rarely major poachers or smugglers. To imply that Stimson's and Carpets are major targets for smugglers is a nonsense, they have been readily available for decades, and are usually cheaper overseas than they are here.

The story about the effectiveness of current DNA databases is also highly suspect. They may have enough material for species such as black cockatoos, and the common reptiles, perhaps Stimson's Pythons, if they're lucky. The costs of obtaining the data, and the time and numbers involved, are huge. But I guess just the threat is effective in obtaining a prosecution, regardless of the legitimacy of the basis on which the threat is made. It's all about perception, not fact.

The fact is that most reptile keepers abide by the law as much as anyone else, the perception being created by these departments is always that reptile keepers are dodgey and need to be watched. It's a good story and it keeps us passive in the face of bureaucratic insult.

j

Jamie.

When the animals are given a paper trail they become a matter for state and territory Wildlife Authorities. I get the feeling that there will be quite a few people claiming that the parents of the jag they spontaneously hatched, out of a normal x normal pairing, have died in a house fire when they are asked to give a DNA analysis.

so, that's a customs matter, not state DEC officers concern - where's the conservation aspect of hassling someone over a smuggled jag? it's a different issue, and those in charge of smuggling investigations just turn a blind eye to when it comes to jags and gtp's. these officers aren't investigating smugglers, they're hassling private keepers.

EDIT
After reading Jamie's post i'll leave the smuggling aspect because it doesn't have a direct link to conservation. But i think a parrallel can be drawn with the poaching of other morphs. I reliably know of more than one 'big boy' breeder that are knowingly selling the offspring of poached animals.

 

[ShaneBlack]

Nephurus wheeleri DNA testing in nsw soon.

That would be four years too late. That horse has already bolted lol. What a waste of time and money that exercise would be. Wheeleri are already fairly common in captivity and relatively cheap. Not having a go at you pilaga......its just a laugh at some of these decisions being made.

 

[jack]

in regards to decc in nsw, why they even have power over animals that are not sliding around in their national parks baffles/concerns me.

 

[Daz_McC]

So what's your solution to the poaching of rare reptiles from the wild? Give the poacher a pat on the back and an Order of Australia I suppose.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Daz_McC, I have not referred to poaching RARE reptiles from the wild, I have pointed to the inordinate amount of attention that keepers of common species get from the bureaucrats, and how self congratulatory they are when they get their propaganda publicity. Even if rare animals are removed from the wild, for example, the Rough-scaled Python, it means very little in terms of conservation of wils populations if it's done in a controlled fashion. There are many species which could be acquired under similarly controlled conditions, which could be made available to the trade after a period of time. It's an example that could be replicated across the country if bureaucrats moved their thinking into the 21st century.

Oddly, we hear NOTHING of the success of this project from the bureaucrats, it's almost as if it never happened for them, and to be honest, the existence of RSPs in captivity has put them under pressure in WA because WA keepers wonder why they are deprived of the prospect of keeping them in their home state. The notion of the introduction of disease is a nonsense - IBD and what is suspected as OPMV are already in WA and have been for years, and it would be easy to get foundation stock from a clean collection - for example from the Snake Ranch animals.

Daz_McC, you have never contributed anything significant or positive to these debates - this most recent contribution is on par with your previous comments.... It's a debate which deserves more than one-line sniping from the edge.

J

 

[Bushman]

Well said Jamie!
With such a resoundingly successful precedent such as Morelia carinata is, acknowledgment by CALM is conspicuous in its absence!
I see plenty of good reasons to and no good reason not to also secure the future of Morelia oenpelliensis and Liasis olivaceus barroni.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Nephurus wheeleri DNA testing in nsw soon.

I doubt very much whether there is a legally significant database for species like wheeleri, and what will it prove if there was?

J

 

[Bushfire]

I totally argee Jamie. I also think part of the problem is that many of the keepers about these days have never experienced this side of the authorities so are always quick to down play it, or the "if you have done nothing wrong than you have nothing to hide" attitude but in the mean all your basic rights are walked over, you are alway suspected of doing something wrong its just they havent found or caught you out yet.

Sadly I think we get the wildlife agencies we deserve, we put up with all the crap and lack of service and still dont complain. Where is the demanding attitude we had that got us a lawful right to keep? Its gone and replaced with the take whatever system we are given.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

Sad but true Jaime. This is a fairly common tactic amongst governmental bodies when they need demonstrate to their constituents that they are "getting tough" on illicit activities. As has been described many times on this forum, it is clear that WA regs are not at all "hobby herper friendly". That coupled with the actions of a few bad eggs poaching/smuggling/etc, and the effort it would take to track down those individuals responsible for said illicit activities, it's the hobbyist that will cop the flak. Far easier to attend someone's house when their address is on file rather than scour the enormous state that is WA looking for 1 person in the bush with a potato sack and flashlight.

This really does highlight the need for a co-ordinated and unified front for hobby herpetoculturalists.

 

[spongebob]

Rather then attempt to DNA profile wild populations wouldnt it make more sense to profile those already in captivity that there is the most concern about?

 

[kupper]

Rather then attempt to DNA profile wild populations wouldnt it make more sense to profile those already in captivity that there is the most concern about?

that would definantly make more sense