Diamond Python Problem? Sick?

[skubz]

Hey all, my Diamond has started acting weird in the last couple of weeks. This is my first python so I haven't experienced any issues with python health before.

He's around 8 years old, maybe a little younger. The first thing he did that struck me as odd was not straightening his neck, he's never struck at anything and its not a tense strike sort of bend.

Also when i took him out he really seemed to struggle with which way was up and down, kept spazing and twisting upside down a few times.

He's progressed to almost reversing around his enclosure when he moves, its quite weird. I've taken him to the vet and the reptile specialist said he is physically healthy looking, I got x-rays just in case because it was the neck thing that was worrying me at the time. The x-rays showed now damage to the bones.

I've taken a video, sorry its kind of long, but the worst part is around 4:00 and 7:25 onward. I'm really worried it might be Diamond Python Syndrome but i have no real knowledge on this disease and I've never seen a python with it. Someone with some experience please watch the video and let me know what you think.

Diamond Python - YouTube

Thanks in advance

Steve

 

[SxcAy]

Hope for you the best iv personally got a baby diamond aswell but here's a whole thread that can hopefully help you out

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/experiences-dps-65233/

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/experiences-dps-part-2-a-135920/

 

[notechistiger]

That's one sad looking snake, definitely hope it's something fixable! I'd private message serpenttongue about it if he hasn't seen this thread yet.

 

[skubz]

I've read both them threads on DPS but haven't 'seen' it before so i dont want to label it that and be wrong. I hope its something fixable too, this guy has been the best pet for close to 8 years!

 

[serpenttongue]

Okay, firstly, have you ruled out things like a worm infestation or exposure to any toxins?

Have you had it since a hatchling, and how have you heated it?

How's the muscle tone?

DPS infected diamonds do behave the way your snake is in the video, usually when they are cool, such as in the early morning before they've heated up. Often they will lay still with their neck in an 'S' and flatten the neck skin out (I'll dig up a photo of this tonight). They will also writhe their stomach area around while remaining stationary. I put this down pain caused by internal organs starting to fail. All this behaviour usually stops as soon as you pick the animal up.

All a vet can do is X-rays. Many of mine had broken spines, ribs and, in particular, jaws. Broken bones could be the first symptom, or the last, depending on the age of the snake.

There is no cure for DPS, so medications and vet advice wont help - IF it is indeed DPS.

 

[cools2036]

Please note DPS is not only inflicted to diamond pythons, it is common among them hence the name though a lot of the Morelia sp get it, it's a virus that's not really known much of IMO.

It does look like it's DPS in my IN my experience and it's age also a factor in this diagnosis.

However I have seen virus' that aren't "DPS" do similar symptoms and have worn off through an antibiotic treatment.

But this was a sudden occurane in an otherwise strong and healthy snake.

How long have you noticed these symptoms?
Eating habits lately?
And is it water kept clean regularly?
Any seasonal cooling/heating ?

 

[Cockney_Red]

Nice Diamond, hope all is OK, but doesn't look good....As ST says rule out other possibilities first...good luck.

 

[skubz]

Thanks for the responses,

I have had him since he was a hatchie almost 8 years ago.
Heating is controlled by thermostat in the middle of the enclosure set to 24 degrees, I have never cooled down for winter as i have no intention of breeding. This is what the reptile shop recommended and he has been good and healthy up until now.

I cant see how he could have been exposed to any toxins or worms as I've not done anything out of the ordinary, all rats are from the one store and supplier I have always used.

His muscle tone seems good.

He hasn't eaten in a couple of months, and has probably been showing slight symptoms for that amount of time, they have only gotten worse in the past week to what i videoed. He's never been the best climber so initially i thought he might have just been having a more un-co bad day until it started getting worse and he started having issues on the ground.

The vet decided to do antibiotics as a precautionary measure when he first saw him (when he wasn't as bad) but they haven't helped and he has got worse. I'm going to run out the course of antibiotics and if they don't help by the end I'll have to look at putting the big guy down

In regards to the other pythons getting the illness, we own a Jungle Python that is housed in its own vivarium but in the same room, they never have come into contact with each other but would it be advisable to change rooms just to be safe? or should it be ok in separate vivariums?

 

[Timmy-Morelia]

what? never cooled them ....diamonds are a cold climate snake they are suited to cold weather for someone to say you dont need to cool them is crazy

 

[serpenttongue]

I have never cooled down for winter as i have no intention of breeding. This is what the reptile shop recommended and he has been good and healthy up until now

He's never been the best climber so initially i thought he might have just been having a more un-co bad day until it started getting worse and he started having issues on the ground.

It is vital to a diamonds health that it is cooled down for winter. Keeping them at summer temps year after year, for 8 years is very taxing to the organs. It will eventually suffer from metabolic burn-out and/or DPS, which looks like that may be happening now.

How was he "never the best climber"?? Just un-co movements? Diamonds hatch out of the egg as excellent climbers. Has he been raised with the opportunity for climbing where he could stretch out his full length and move up, down, and vertically? Climbing is great exercise and helps keep muscles lean.

 

[skubz]

It is vital to a diamonds health that it is cooled down for winter. Keeping them at summer temps year after year, for 8 years is very taxing to the organs. It will eventually suffer from metabolic burn-out and/or DPS, which looks like that may be happening now.

How was he "never the best climber"?? Just un-co movements? Diamonds hatch out of the egg as excellent climbers. Has he been raised with the opportunity for climbing where he could stretch out his full length and move up, down, and vertically? Climbing is great exercise and helps keep muscles lean.

If it is due to not cooling I'll have to wear that, I kept him as i was originally told from the reptile shop i bought him from and he's been good for 7 years up until now.

As for climbing, from the start when he was small he just stayed on the ground most of the time, there was things to climb on, he just didn't do it much. He was plenty active, just not hugely keen on going up. When i upgraded his enclosure to a larger one i put more branches to climb on (mainly because the heat source was further from the ground now in a taller enclosure) and still the same. He'd go on the branches sometimes and not have the greatest balance but he could stretch out and move around.

He's around 9ft and in a 4x3x2ft vivarium (WxHxD), which is bigger than any displays I've seen in reptile shops compared to the size of the python, is this adequate?

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Hi Steve, Mate we talked via PM the other day on this & i stick to my belief & thoughts on this, just as serpentongue does.

The cooling of Diamonds is a must & in winter don't keep them too hot esp in summer & remove all available warm hides in summer & make them use cool hides. As i said to you in the Pm Nick has written some very good articles on Diamonds & DPS. I had asked Colin to post them on the wiki site here, but i don't think that ever happened. The thoughts that it is some virus is just absolute bs & unless it is diagnosed as a virus affecting your snake, i am afraid that it has succombe to DPS.

You have permission to put up our PM conversation if you wish. Sorry for your loss mate. Cheers Ian

 

[skubz]

Thanks, I'm doing this all publicly on the forum now, if it was the way i kept my Diamond that ultimately caused the issue in the long run it will be beneficial for others to see. Not enough people are willing to show what has gone wrong and help people avoid it.

Hopefully this wont be my last Diamond and the next one will be better kept, and live a longer life.

This is the conversation i had with Ian,

"hey mate, just been searching the forum and read you lost a Diamond. Sorry to hear about the loss but i wanted to pick you brain.

I have a 8 year old Diamond that has only started acting weird in the last month. It hasnt eaten, is moving weirdly, wont straighten it's neck (had x-rays, nothings broken) and is almost just moving backwards now. Also gets twitchy like its falling ad trying to compensate, but its on the ground.

Do these symptoms sound familiar to what you experienced? I really hope it isnt something bad, but i'm struggling to find anyone with first hand experience, everyone seems a little hush hush when it comes to anything bad related to their animals

thanks

Steve"

reply from Ian to myself:


"Hi Steve,

Mate that is exacyly the same symptoms that my female showed. I did not take to a vet as i was told by a competant friend that had this happen to his female, he let his female go until a more advanced stage & as a result she started to get brocken bones etc.
I uthenised my female before this stage as it was my belief from wathing her move & slowly go backwards that she was in some pain.
My friend spoke to Simon Stone about his female & was told that he believed it was DPS & there is no treatment available. Simon also said that it was due to being kept too warm & the pythons thyroid gland packs it in & therefor cannot absorb calcium & vitamins. This is a short version, but blunt & to the piont.

There was some great articles written by Nicholas Watson in early editions of Reptiles Australia magazines.I hope that this helps & i am sorry to hear of your Pythons health. There has been some great advise given on some of these threads & Rob Sullivan (Dee 4) gives a great example of how he houses his diamonds with great success.

Cheers

Ian"

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

IMO that is spot on Steve.
I support your cause & i am sure that is what Serpetongue started out to do when he wrote his stories.
Unfortunately not everyone takes advice & think that they can do it better, just as i did when i first got them. A very beautifull & friendly snake, but just need different environment.

Cheers Ian

 

[SarahScales]

I am so sorry for your loss... I couldn't imagine anything more awful to happen to you and your beloved pet.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Someting else that i would like to add is that a lot of people tend to care too much about the hot spot or hot end & giving thier reptile that supossed ideal hot end. In most reptile enclosures that i have seen it is near impossible to give an ideal hot end & ideal cool end. There can be many things to do to overcome this, but too much to mention here.
In my outdoor enclosures where i did house the Diamonds & other Carpet pythons they get morning sun & afternoon shade.
IMO it is the too hot of conditions that do the most damage. One very cold winter morning when there was frost on the ground & ambient temp of about 0 degrees c. I was worried about my outdoor carpets & thought that i would freese them. So i took some skin temp readings & they were as low as 3 degrees c. i thought bugger this is no good, but as soon as the sun came up, they came out & basked in the sun & warmed up. No problems. So long as your snake can get to warmed up body temp at some time, don't stress too much about the hot end.

JMO
Cheers
Ian

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

Hey Skubz,
I too lost a DP in similar circumstances. You are getting some good advice on here but as has been mentioned its unfortunate that so many people repeat these mistakes and more of these beautiful animals perish, mostly because of bad advice from the retail trade.
I agree with the comments you have received regarding winter cooling, this is essential in ALL snakes in my opinion, without cooling I believe the life span of these animals is reduced proportionally.
However the advice on here is not going to help your current situation but hopefully it will help you to make changes in the future that will benefit another animal.

 

[KaotikJezta]

Hey Skubz,
I too lost a DP in similar circumstances. You are getting some good advice on here but as has been mentioned its unfortunate that so many people repeat these mistakes and more of these beautiful animals perish, mostly because of bad advice from the retail trade.
I agree with the comments you have received regarding winter cooling, this is essential in ALL snakes in my opinion, without cooling I believe the life span of these animals is reduced proportionally.
However the advice on here is not going to help your current situation but hopefully it will help you to make changes in the future that will benefit another animal.

Totally agree, see so many people come through the shop I work in that are literally killing their reptiles with kindness. Everything from refusing to let them brumate, over feeding and thinking they need friends. So many people I talk to with Diamonds, and other pythons for that matter, have them in overheated, under ventilated enclosures and have never cooled.

 

[pharskie]

I had a female coastal go with very similar symptoms(to start with) and turned out to be liver disease. Just curios, is DPS contagious?

 

[jahan]

"Simon also said that it was due to being kept too warm & the pythons thyroid gland packs it in & therefor cannot absorb calcium & vitamins"

The thyroid gland is also the bodies thermostat.