did a venomous snake handeling course today

[eipper]

I run no contact courses in qld pm me for details

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I run no contact courses in qld pm me for details

 

[BIGBANG]

I did my Ven. handling course recently through Geckoes Wildlife at Closeburn. If anyone is in the SE Queensland area i can very highly recommend this course.

Absolutely no hand to scale contact, all training is done with a hoop bag and hook. Pinners and Grippers were explained and discussed but we were basically advised not to use them as they are dangerous for the snakes and simply unnecessary most of the time. We learned and practised all the techniques with pythons first and slowly moved up the rank of snakes until we got to the taipans and browns. Every thing was very professional and the theory and first aid was explained clearly and effectively.

The course done by the OP sounds very dangerous and i completely agree that there should be some sort of bench mark. Id trust the other 4 blokes in my course to work with snakes and other people should be able to trust their local snake person, but i wouldnt trust anyone who learnt in the OPs course.

hey mate i couldnt agree more, i believe that the method although effective when done by someone that knows snakes like i do, when done by a novice or someone that has had nothing to do with snakes i could only see it ending badly, after all if you stop jiggling the snake you have a pretty cranky snake by the tail. i cant see myself using this method very often i might give it a go if the situation is right to do so.

 

[Elapidae1]

Apart from compliant textilis I am at a loss to understand how one gets the snake into the bag without "skin to scale" using only a hook.

As a few people have eluded too the bag is made to look like a good refuge and the hook used to flick the remainder of the body in as the bag is being lifted from the ground.

That is my preferred method for hots. I use a dark bag on a fishing net frame and try and make it look like the safest hiding spot available. Cox the snake in by tickling its tail and/or guiding its head.
Of course every snake is different and you must be prepared to improvise, last textillis wouldn't leave her little spot and was hooked and gently dropped into the bag, Twice she landed with her head out and promptly left the bag.

Exactly how hook and hoop bag is taught.

so the snakes on the courses are not dangerous.

My apologies, I should not have made this comment.
I thought the OP was referring to another training provider who uses similar methods with safe Elapids

I've been asked to supply Eastern Brown Snakes for the latest WIRES course in our local area and I can assure you they're straight out of "Bush" (wild caught on relocations).

See above comment.

No skin to scale? Have fun with that..
Every situation is different, every snake is different and can potentially react differently.
I might be wrong but I think the best teacher is experience,
These licences should come with L plates and P plates.


Then again, what would i know, Ive been called a dinosour, lol.

You have been handling for many years and your skills learned over a life time.
Training providers here in WA are not allowed to teach any hands on handling techniques with the belief that there is more risk of a serious bite than if the snake were just allowed to escape.
As Dave pointed out much of the training is provided to the mining sector and their OH&S policies don't allow for a "SKIN TO SCALE" technique.
I'm well aware of the limitations of the hook and bag method but feel that a snake that eludes capture is safer than one that is being held by the tail by somebody fresh out of a 1 day course.

A major difference between courses and the field is the floor surface and the open space that you just don't get out on a catch job. Even if they are wild caught snakes at the course, the floor puts the odds highly in the catchers favour.
I won't tail adders, but I have had to on two occasions now because of the situation. This same situation applies to almost every catching scenario, if the snake is in a place that is very close to escape, then tailing or pinning is the way to go. And isn't this the case with most call outs? A black or brown in a messy house, needs a quick capture or you run the risk of losing it in the house. If the snakes head is going through a hole, good luck hooking that into a bag.

quote pp "Part of being a good snake catcher is that one that should be adverse with all methods and regonize that different situations sometimes require different methods and implements."

So true, an open mind and the ability to use stick or broom or what ever is available is key. Because a good snake handler knows the animals capabilities and therefore can work with it.

Yes but the thread is about completely green people being taught to tail snakes without the ability or experience to read snakes or understand their capabilities.
Get any brown snake in a cluttered shed on a 30+ degree day, pin it, tail it, and then try get it into a tub and put the lid on with only 8 hrs experience and your asking for trouble.
Fair enough it may go un caught with the bag and hook method, but at least nobodies bit.

No skin to scale? Fine on a nice quiet and pretending to be a rock death adder that can be put into a bag with very little effort. No skin to scale contact on a carpet python hiding in a roof crawlspace under a child's bedroom, good luck. Oh and you earn master status if you are able to get a Colubrid into a bag without touching it.

As those who have been doing this for a while have said, experience is a great teacher but so is common sense.

My course was two days with 1 being whole theory and the second filled with practical experience starting with carpet pythons and ending with an EB and Coastal Taipan. I learnt more in my first 2 relocations than I did on that course if I was to be honest because being in a vacant hall is heaven compared to waiting out and grabbing a peeved off EB hiding in a wall space.

I thought I made it fairly clear in my original comments that experience was the key and that those wishing to further their skills would soon seek out ways of gaining that experience. I just feel that no skin to scale is a good rule of thumb for an introductory course that caters to complete novices who quite likely wouldn't be able to identify what they were dealing with anyway.

 

[spotlight]

C
Concerning your first comment I would like to see you applie your methods to a scrubie or any other python in a ceiling? and what do you do when its not a snake in the ceiling and find out its a goanna.

mate looking at your location how could you find scrubbies in the Philippines more lic burms and retics LoL ?.

 

[Jonno from ERD]

I've been running "no contact" courses for almost 7 years. We hear a lot of comments from those who like to think safely relocating snakes requires some God-given gift. The vast majority of our clients are industry based - mining, construction, gas, energy, defence, government etc. I would conservatively estimate we have trained over 2000 people in the last 7 years. I am still in contact with many of the course participants and several have commented on this thread. Some of the most successful QLD snake catching businesses have humble roots as participants in our course.

The key to running these courses is what you're teaching them. At the very beginning of the course we tell them that they walk out of here on their P-plates...but in reality, we have had very few come back to us and say they were faced with a situation they couldn't tackle using the techniques we have taught them. We spent less time on techniques and much more time on teaching them "snake psychology" - how to manipulate snakes into doing what you want them to, how to read their behaviour, and how to think outside the square. The proof is in the pudding - what we teach works. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to work with a snake. Maybe some of the detractors should come along and learn a thing or two?

 

[cement]

Yes but the thread is about completely green people being taught to tail snakes without the ability or experience to read snakes or understand their capabilities.
Get any brown snake in a cluttered shed on a 30+ degree day, pin it, tail it, and then try get it into a tub and put the lid on with only 8 hrs experience and your asking for trouble.
Fair enough it may go un caught with the bag and hook method, but at least nobodies bit.

Yes good point. For any would be catchers out there reading this post, pinning and then tailing a brown in 30+ temps is definatly the wrong way to catch it, and a very good opportunity to get nailed. Even for the experienced.

 

[-Peter]

Thanks for your response Jonno, I always thought gods gift was one of your stronger points myself. I'm playing devil's advocate here. BTW, thanks for the generous offer of attending one of your courses but I couldn't take away the spot of a paying customer.
Contrary to the opinions of a number of people here I do change mind regulary but I dont change my mind without evidence. People telling me something is so doesn't prove anything. Now we have pinning, grippers(tongs?) and whatever else being bandied about. I know these courses are geared for industry and therefore have to comply with OH&S requirements but it seems that novices are being sent out with a bunch of tools that should never be put in the hands of novices and armed with snake psychology and a certificate. There are several very reputable courses run from several states but I still want to know. Are people piggybacking these course to become snake catchers in urban areas? How do you teach snake psychology of the many variede species or are the courses geared specifically for the snakes that they will encounter at the minesite.

 

[BIGBANG]

our course focused on the main snakes the people doing the course would likely deal with, browns, blacks, tigers, and copper heads, where i live i deal majority with browns with the odd tiger thrown in

 

[Jonno from ERD]

Thanks for your response Jonno, I always thought gods gift was one of your stronger points myself. I'm playing devil's advocate here. BTW, thanks for the generous offer of attending one of your courses but I couldn't take away the spot of a paying customer.
Contrary to the opinions of a number of people here I do change mind regulary but I dont change my mind without evidence. People telling me something is so doesn't prove anything. Now we have pinning, grippers(tongs?) and whatever else being bandied about. I know these courses are geared for industry and therefore have to comply with OH&S requirements but it seems that novices are being sent out with a bunch of tools that should never be put in the hands of novices and armed with snake psychology and a certificate. There are several very reputable courses run from several states but I still want to know. Are people piggybacking these course to become snake catchers in urban areas? How do you teach snake psychology of the many variede species or are the courses geared specifically for the snakes that they will encounter at the minesite.

Hi Pete...don't take too much offense. There's a few oldschool snake catchers up here who love the media and hate what I do, and are quite outspoken about it.

We don't teach pinning or the use of tongs as there are no situations I can think of that occur with enough regularity that require the teaching of such a technique. We also don't teach tailing, as it doesn't matter which way you spin it, that's an absolute guaranteed way to get a novice bitten. Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?

OH&S requirements are developed after the course, not before it. I am not regulated by anyone with regards to the techniques I teach. I regularly write SOP's for large companies with regards to snake catching and they never try and impede on what processes I implement. The reason I teach the techniques I do is because it is 100% safe, 100% of the time. If the course participants adhere to the boundaries we establish, it's virtually impossible for them to get bitten.

Snake psychology isn't all that variable amongst species. Approach a snake from head on, you'll get a big defensive response...approach it from behind and it will be much more sedate...this sort of thing. Some of it is more complex, other components are more simple. We have had many experienced herps come through the course, sometimes not by choice (you may remember names like Dave Cavendish from years ago, and more recently Michael Anthony from Cape York). I often feel a bit silly teaching these people who I learnt stuff from throughout my youth, but they all walk away saying they at least learnt something.

You won't walk away from these courses being able to step into a role milking 100 Taipans a day, but you'll walk away with the foundations to successfully capture and relocate elapids in nearly every situation. Like I said, proof is in the pudding - no bites during, or after a course.

 

[BIGBANG]

Hi Pete...don't take too much offense. There's a few oldschool snake catchers up here who love the media and hate what I do, and are quite outspoken about it.

We don't teach pinning or the use of tongs as there are no situations I can think of that occur with enough regularity that require the teaching of such a technique. We also don't teach tailing, as it doesn't matter which way you spin it, that's an absolute guaranteed way to get a novice bitten. Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?

OH&S requirements are developed after the course, not before it. I am not regulated by anyone with regards to the techniques I teach. I regularly write SOP's for large companies with regards to snake catching and they never try and impede on what processes I implement. The reason I teach the techniques I do is because it is 100% safe, 100% of the time. If the course participants adhere to the boundaries we establish, it's virtually impossible for them to get bitten.

Snake psychology isn't all that variable amongst species. Approach a snake from head on, you'll get a big defensive response...approach it from behind and it will be much more sedate...this sort of thing. Some of it is more complex, other components are more simple. We have had many experienced herps come through the course, sometimes not by choice (you may remember names like Dave Cavendish from years ago, and more recently Michael Anthony from Cape York). I often feel a bit silly teaching these people who I learnt stuff from throughout my youth, but they all walk away saying they at least learnt something.

You won't walk away from these courses being able to step into a role milking 100 Taipans a day, but you'll walk away with the foundations to successfully capture and relocate elapids in nearly every situation. Like I said, proof is in the pudding - no bites during, or after a course.

so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?

 

[Wrightpython]

so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?

Ask it nicely

 

[Elapidae1]

With a lot of heavy lifting.

 

[Stuart]

so how would you go about removing a 6 foot brown out of a shed that is full of conola seed bags, barley, wheat and any other grain farmers like to stuff in their sheds that weigh 30+ kg's without toughing the snake?

In that situation, does it need to be removed or will it remove itself after half an hour?

 

[-Peter]

Am I correct that a WIRES course had multiple people bitten teaching their "run after it with your hoop bag in front of you, grab it by the tail and hope for the best" techniques?

Good story but a story. Theres a lot of animosity towards wildlife groups. People make up all sorts of stuff. I dont really understand it myself. Elitism probably. As far as I know only one person has ever been bitten on a WIRES course and that was a trainer. A channel 7 camera man shoved a camera in her face when she was wrangling a brown. Thus our rule of no cameras during traing.
There was the idiot on our course who got bitten by the red belly though. He blamed the heat.

 

[BIGBANG]

In that situation, does it need to be removed or will it remove itself after half an hour?

like i have said in other posts mate people round here arent gunna wait patiently for it to finish up doing what ever it is doing, the farmers will just open fire and shoot it if they cant get at it with a shovel, i think the no skin to scale idea might work in some cases but only teaching people that could cause its own problems

 

[-Peter]

When it comes to the crunch. If you can deal with a snake without having to place your hands on it then its a winning situation.

 

[Fuscus]

When it comes to the crunch. If you can deal with a snake without having to place your hands on it then its a winning situation.

Most of the time you don't need to touch elapids. However most of my python and colubrid relocations are hands on affairs. The tend it be wrapped around something and you need to grab and untangle. So far only one elapid I've encountered has been wrapped around something or off the ground.

 

[MrFireStorm]

Most of the time you don't need to touch elapids. So far only one elapid I've encountered has been wrapped around something or off the ground.

Wish that was the case down here. I have had numerous calls to remove tigers and copperheads from birdnetting. Worst thing is they don't seem to appreciate the help you are giving them and still try to bite, even after being released from the net.

Daz

 

[imported_Varanus]

Birdnetting, a very large EB stuck half way through a chicken wire fence (2kg snake), garden sleeper holes, aggy pipes/ fixtures, steel goal posts, down a toilet- all these so far this season (first removal 24/ august). We deal with 100+ callouts most seasons and 90% of those are textillis. In Grafton, I've heard 350+ calls, but alot of pythons/ green trees in the mix also. JMO, but I reckon the more callouts you do, the more situations require no touch (see ya later-dead snake) or hands on.

BTW, I've done WIRES courses and Jonno's Elapid Husbandry course and can't see what all the animosity is about? Surely, any learning experience is a plus.

 

[-Peter]

I doubt industry courses cover bird netting.