do red belly blacks eat other elapids

[imported_Varanus]

Thats not an easy answer. I say yes and John Cann says yes but there is no research to back it up. Numerous keepers have had red bellies die after being bitten by a cage mate. I have had several males die from a particular female. In one case the male was missing and the female had and obvious full stomache and in another case the male had become a bag of slush overnight.

Here's an example of the above; called "chewy" for obvious reasons (organs were "mush").

 

[junglepython2]

But get a BHP and the venom is... Useless?

Is there an enzyme that breaks down the venom in species tolerant? Or is it just completely different pathways... I should probably google this... But hearing it from people first hand is much better

I'm guessing the receptors that the venom locks onto are modified in immune species.

 

[cement]

Here's an example of the above; called "chewy" for obvious reasons (organs were "mush").

What happened with that snake?

I have had males fighting and bites not doing a thing. Maybe they were dry. Seems illogical that they would be affected by their own venom though.
I have seen a colletts bite a mulga with no effects. Same sized animals, not a feed bite though, we were playing with them and they got to close and the colly bit out of annoyance.
I might have to do more research on this I think.

 

[slim6y]

The plot thickens I see...

 

[imported_Varanus]

What happened with that snake?

A callout where the home owner reported two RBB "fighting" on his back lawn. When I arrived, one animal had fled the scene, leaving "chewy". The snake appeared to have a problem with movement and righting itself on initial contact and 12 hours later, it was bloated and deceased. Definately succumed to the venom of the other IMO as I dont believe the damage inflicted appeared that extreme (a few small puncture marks).

 

[cement]

After doing some reading I am now of the opinion that the jury is out on this.
I found a bloke who wrote up a hypothesis to try and get funding for this exact type of experiment but, couldn't find if he went ahead or not. I had assumed that they are immune to their own venoms, but what I should have assumed is that, this is venom (and because of the nature of venom), there are many factors governing this.
I have found a paper by Hoser that seems to prove that death adders are immune, others believe that because the venom apparatus is in the mouth, and any venom expelled is swallowed (either in food, or just dripping into the mouth) and is therefore contained in an area that is not able to be affected (digestive tract), where if being injected into muscle or organ it will be affected.
There are also those who believe that some older snakes are more immune then juveniles, as they build up their immunity to their own venom over time (through digesting it).
There is some interesting stuff on venom doc forum re the bhp's, but to many big words for me. I prefer to deal in layman's terms!

IV it is possible that that snake copped a fang in an unlucky spot. Also possible that its own immunity was very low due to having a very good digestive system. Also possible that they are not immune and it was bitten and succumbed. Also possible that it died of some type of injury it received previous to the fight.

Ive only spent a couple of hours on this as it is pouring rain and I can't work today, so if anyone else has something more concrete, it might make for an interesting thread.

 

[longqi]

we have watched banded kraits eat snakes

they bite hard once
then they seem to just hang on until the victim is nearly dead
after that they bite all along the body of the victim
then they swallow it
so maybe the second lot of bites are to aid digestion??

 

[Justdragons]

Very interesting thread

 

[imported_Varanus]

IV it is possible that that snake copped a fang in an unlucky spot. Also possible that its own immunity was very low due to having a very good digestive system. Also possible that they are not immune and it was bitten and succumbed. Also possible that it died of some type of injury it received previous to the fight.

All possibilities, but I believe the venom to be primarily responsible, given the degree/state of decay within 12 hours (the whole basement literally stunk and the snake was in a plastic sistema container in an adjacent room). I've had young pseudechis (Collett's and Mulgas) bite their own tails and lower bodies (even hang on and chew) during feeding responses with no ill effect.

 

[tahniandshae]

thanks all who have replied.most interesting. who needs google eh

 

[-Peter]

A lot of elapids, well red bellies at least, have holes in the lower jaw under the fangs. As I dont keep them anymore I cant get a pic. Its been mentioned before.