Feeding live prey

[Timotei]

Yeh, i think fair enuf feed however u lyk, but in the end that is true, the rodents are going to get killed anyways... OdessaStud, how are the frozen feeders that u hav in ur store die ? I'm not taking any sides, ur completely entitled to feel the way u do, just that there does not seem to be a 100% pleasing and safe solution, feed live and ur snake cld get killed, if u want to feed dead u hav to deal with killing the things.

 

[Greebo]

I recieved an infraction for my comment about Mels practices.I officially appologise to the Mods and the Members of this forum if my comments were out of line.Mel im not sorry for what i said to you !!! I just hope newbies dont follow in your footsteps, and if my infraction saves a rodent or two from being Frozen to death it was worth it!!
Odie

obviously a waste of time posting the above,other peoples posts get edited Mine get Removed ???
looks like its odessa studs turn to be bashed about the forum again,
So Sorry for careing about the fact that Rodents Are Being Frozen Alive!!!!!

You received an infraction for insulting another member. Calling another member names is not a constructive way to get your point across and will rarely get a positive response from the person it is directed at.

 

[OdessaStud]

Timotei thats a fair question you asked I use CO2 gas and will never use anything else.Before a friend of mine got me a proper cylinder i used the viniger and bicarb method, it was basic and very quick but the CO2 gas is my definate prefered method.I timed how long it took from very much alive to the very dead stage and I was amazed when it took under 3 seconds this time was less the bigger the rat.
Greebo I respect what you are saying 100% and I will verse my opinion with more tact but with all due respect at the time of answering Mels reply to my offer I really didnt care how she took my comment.
Cheers Odie.

 

[serpenttongue]

Thank you for your post ST, can I just ask a few ? of you though, please?

We purcahsed two yearling DP approx, 7 months ago. We had previously owned beardies and frogs. So this was our first snake purchase. We presumed that with our inexperience buying yearling's would be better than hatching's.
We contacted a Sydney seller that had advertised on Herptrader and emailed back and forward a lot. We were told that they where eating frozen/thawed hopper mice and live.
We have not had any problems with one, and she now eats frozen/thawed velvet rats.
But the other never ate from day one, we tried everything and after six months took him to a recommended vet. The vet checked everything, no problems, so pretty much said to try live fuzzy mice as force feeding could kill the snake, we then went to a reptile shop and explained our situation and they agreed that we needed to feed live, and stated they have quite a few DP owners that need to feed live. (they also stated in there opinion that a DP is not a beginners snake) . I'm not comfortable with feeding live, and have no idea what I will do in the future when he needs larger food.
I absolutely consider it as our lack of experience that is causing this problem, but I honestly do not know what else to do There is no one else that I can take my snake to or get advice. So very regrettable we are feeding live at the moment, the other option is to try and sell the snake to a experienced herper, or let it die.

Thankyou for your time. I am feeding live out of pure desperation, and hate/scared doing it.

At 1 year of age diamonds should be very established feeders and moving to another collection shouldnt really put them off for too long, especially not the 7 months you've had them. Makes me wonder whether this snake was a problem feeder for it's previous owner, but anyway....

Are you keeping them together or separate? If they're together then this may have something to do with it. It could be a shy snake that's intimidated by others.

Words that i keep fresh in my mind are "Environment influences behaviour". Wise words indeed and they have got me out of many reptile related problems. Much of the way a snake acts depends on it's immediate environment. You really need to get inside your snakes head and work out whats going on. Usually a few simple changes is all thats needed to get a stubborn feeder feeding. Perhaps a smaller enclosure to live in, branches to perch on, kept in darkness etc. I always keeping youngsters in small containers with newspaper or paper towel as a substrate. They seem to enjoy hiding underneath it rather than using hiding boxes. I keep young diamonds with day temps of 28'c and no heating at night (unless just fed on a pretty cold night) Diamonds need cool nights. They tend to become sluggish with heating offered day and night.

I've always found young diamonds to favour defrosted fuzzy/weaner mice over anything else in captivity. They love mice with a strong urine scent. They tend to be turned off by mice that were frozen in sawdust filled tubs. I wash the mice under warm water and dry them on newspaper. To get non-feeders feeding the dead mouse is left in the enclosure overnight. If its still there in the morning i throw it. I keep doing this until one day it is gone. No healthy diamond wants to starve. Once it's happy and feels safe with it's immediate surrounding it will gladly eat. When someone has a snake that wont eat, the problem is almost always the set-up, not the snakes dislike for the prey offered.

If you have to feed live then use young mice that dont have their sharp teeth or stun them if they do. Feeding live should be the last option. Also try scenting with skinks, chicken down, chicken broth, braining the mouse, offer raw chicken etc etc. Dont force-feed.

Also when you feed it a live mouse offer it a dead one as the first kill is being swallowed. You can usually put the head of the dead mouse into the snakes mouth as the first meal disappears. The snake should gladly start consuming the second meal. After doing this a few times they will except the dead mouse without needing a live one first. If you decide to offer it a dead mouse personally(that is, you introduce the food to the snake on forceps while its active) there is one trick that works well for me to encourage them to except. Firstly i show the mouse to the snake and then slowly pull it back. If the snake follows the mouse then i know i'm onto something. I then gently push the mouse against the snakes snout/chin. If the snake doesnt back off then half the battle is over. I push it against the nose for a few seconds then pull the mouse away. I give the snake a moment to think about it, then push the mouse back against the snakes snout. I do this several times and as long as the snake doesnt back away from this then you've got a 95% chance of it feeding. Just dont give up!!. Anyway, after doing this several times, if the meal isnt excepted i crank it up a notch. This time after pushing the mouse against its snout i dont pull away, instead i nudge the snakes sides with the mouse. This can excite the hell out of them and they sometimes swing around to catch the mouse. I keep repeating this method. I push against the snout, then nudge along the snakes body a few more times. Then i'll just nudge along both sides of the body, up and down, side to side, rather quickly then without giving the snake time to think i push the mouse back against the snakes snout and WHAM!!!!:shock: (occasionally they'll slowly grab the mouse). Then i slowly take a few steps back and watch it eat . Persistance!! This method works well with stubborn feeders and is a great alternative to force-feeding(which makes me shudder).

I agree that diamonds arent a beginners snake, but they are still just as easy to get feeding as other pythons, so i dont think that that's part of the problem.

Good luck!

 

[Timotei]

Timotei thats a fair question you asked I use CO2 gas and will never use anything else.Before a friend of mine got me a proper cylinder i used the viniger and bicarb method, it was basic and very quick but the CO2 gas is my definate prefered method.I timed how long it took from very much alive to the very dead stage and I was amazed when it took under 3 seconds this time was less the bigger the rat.
Greebo I respect what you are saying 100% and I will verse my opinion with more tact but with all due respect at the time of answering Mels reply to my offer I really didnt care how she took my comment.
Cheers Odie.

Wow, CO2 thats a great idea, definitely the most humane way to kill. Also probably the only poison able to be used without the effects passed onto the python. So wen u say that u used vinegar and bicarb originally, howd u do it ? Did u start the reaction in a bottle then tube the CO2 into the tank or wat ?

 

[meshe1969]

At 1 year of age diamonds should be very established feeders and moving to another collection shouldnt really put them off for too long, especially not the 7 months you've had them. Makes me wonder whether this snake was a problem feeder for it's previous owner, but anyway....

He was considerable smaller than the other one..

Are you keeping them together or separate? If they're together then this may have something to do with it. It could be a shy snake that's intimidated by others.

Seperate

Perhaps a smaller enclosure to live in, branches to perch on, kept in darkness etc. I always keeping youngsters in small containers with newspaper or paper towel as a substrate. They seem to enjoy hiding underneath it rather than using hiding boxes. I keep young diamonds with day temps of 28'c and no heating at night (unless just fed on a pretty cold night) Diamonds need cool nights.

We only heat during the day, thermo set to 28. He is in a small plastic container which we have papered around the sides. Newspaper substrate, we had a couple of hides and branches,but have removed them now as he always went under the paper.

To get non-feeders feeding the dead mouse is left in the enclosure overnight. If its still there in the morning i throw it. I keep doing this until one day it is gone.

Yep tried this a few times.

Also try scenting with skinks, chicken down, chicken broth, braining the mouse, offer raw chicken etc etc.

Skink, is the only thing we haven't tried (the vet suggested this as well) as I couldn't find one, did try rubbing it on the geckos and beardies and all the other stuff.

Also when you feed it a live mouse offer it a dead one as the first kill is being swallowed. You can usually put the head of the dead mouse into the snakes mouth as the first meal disappears. The snake should gladly start consuming the second meal. After doing this a few times they will except the dead mouse without needing a live one first.

I am hoping to try this once he is healthy and feeding regularly (even on live, he ate the first week we tried and then not for another three weeks, ate again and then not for two weeks, then ate two weeks in a row) only trying weekly at the moment because he is in a bad way and we don't now if he will eat or not.

If you decide to offer it a dead mouse personally(that is, you introduce the food to the snake on forceps while its active) there is one trick that works well for me to encourage them to except. Firstly i show the mouse to the snake and then slowly pull it back. If the snake follows the mouse then i know i'm onto something. I then gently push the mouse against the snakes snout/chin. If the snake doesnt back off then half the battle is over. I push it against the nose for a few seconds then pull the mouse away. I give the snake a moment to think about it, then push the mouse back against the snakes snout. I do this several times and as long as the snake doesn't back away from this then you've got a 95% chance of it feeding. Just dont give up!!. Anyway, after doing this several times, if the meal isnt excepted i crank it up a notch. This time after pushing the mouse against its snout i dont pull away, instead i nudge the snakes sides with the mouse. This can excite the hell out of them and they sometimes swing around to catch the mouse. I keep repeating this method. I push against the snout, then nudge along the snakes body a few more times. Then i'll just nudge along both sides of the body, up and down, side to side, rather quickly then without giving the snake time to think i push the mouse back against the snakes snout and WHAM!!!!:shock: (occasionally they'll slowly grab the mouse). Then i slowly take a few steps back and watch it eat . Persistance!!

Tried this a few times as well, but will try it again in the future.

Good luck!

Thankyou!! I will not be giving up on getting over to the good side of eating dead!!! lol It just gets a bit disheartening sometimes!!!

 

[Recharge]

Wow, CO2 thats a great idea, definitely the most humane way to kill. Also probably the only poison able to be used without the effects passed onto the python. So wen u say that u used vinegar and bicarb originally, howd u do it ? Did u start the reaction in a bottle then tube the CO2 into the tank or wat ?

I personally use a C02 cylinder, @ $120 a year bottle rental and refills are cheap as (my 10kg bottle has been going for a year and still is no where near empty, and I have quit a a large colony, I supply to a couple of people in Bris.

C02 isn't the only gas though, many also use argon apparently, and there's probably other gas thats safe too.

C02 is defiantly the best way it's DAMN quick and painless.

personally, I think that if you can't handle killing your rats (if you breed them) humanely, then you shouldn't be doing it.

and some of you people should REALLY learn how to use a sentence, those lumped up posts are so hard to read :/

and as another hint, if using IE, install IEspell (spell checker), if using firefox download v2.0 it has a built in spell checker)

 

[mangoman]

thanks Tatelina, glad you enjoyed it :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol:

its true we have all been wrapped up in cotton wool, the world "naturally speaking" is a very cruel place and a mans heart is capable of unfathomable atrocities.. but at the end of the day we must care about the things we do, we must be responsible and have a healthy regard and consideration of not only ourselves but all life on this beautiful planet!!

so in general, i believe, if i myself! were to die and was given a choice on how my death is/was going to occur. would i not choose the most peaceful option? and exhaust every last avenue of thought in this regard?? i think i would, so having this little bit of knowledge i can also apply it to the lesser creatures around me, as it would be in their best interest!! would it not??

I do feel the people who made these ickey videos should suffer the same fate, the same way. simply because they didn't have the animals interests at heart! instead giving the prey a brutally slow and nasty death, not to mention having zero regard for the predator in question either..

summing up i believe if a person really has an animals welfare at heart they will exhaust all options on the preys behalf before continuing. if after that, the animal does have to suffer a little, so be it. at least it had a caring *being* making the decision.

prey or predator everything dies eventually, how would you like to die??? perhaps some soulless person on youtube might help you out??

Im a firm believer in the whack method, and even the co2 method sounds very humane also, as used by OdessaStud,,,I also understand that in some extreme cases feeding live prey may be the only avenue, but let it not be without consideration first!!

 

[Timotei]

Of course we don't have a soul, gee don't be silly, our every action, emotion, thought and connection to other people and the world around us is generated by the chemical reactions in our body. That's why man has always succeeded in making life - it's so easy!

I do believe that making the people on youtube suffer the same fate as the mouse is a bit harsh (even tho i hav had MANY similar thoughts). I personally believe that we, humans, are of more value than animals, but i do not condone the killing or injuring of any animal purely for our entertainment.

There are arguments for both sides, as one could say that the fact that we wish the mouse to die humanely is like us wishing to gas every antelope or zebra before a lion eats it, so it dies peacefully in its sleep. Let things happen naturally, let nature take its course.

On the other hand, we could say that as soon as man started keeping animals domestically we upset the balance, and so we cannot fully emulate the wild, because it is a completely different situation.

 

[Tatelina]

No one has a "soul"......................

In your opinion I have a soul. A bit battered and bruised but still there.

There are arguments for both sides, as one could say that the fact that we wish the mouse to die humanely is like us wishing to gas every antelope or zebra before a lion eats it, so it dies peacefully in its sleep. Let things happen naturally, let nature take its course.

On the other hand, we could say that as soon as man started keeping animals domestically we upset the balance, and so we cannot fully emulate the wild, because it is a completely different situation.

DING DING DING! Exactly! We have upset the balance and our animals are not 'as wild' as they would be if they weren't captive breed, fed, housed etc.
They have a new style of living, so a new style of feeding imo... humanely killed (as as humane as you can manage) dead food.

We don't have control over the antelope or animals out in the wild, as we also don't have control over how people will deal with their own prey and food items. The only thing we can do is let our opinions be heard, and concentrate on what we are doing ourselves, and if we personally have a chance to reduce the suffering of an animal in front of it, do so.

[haha although this can lead into a completely different discussion about mercy killing...and I came across a situation a few weeks ago where my mum was adament that I put a 'bird out of its misery' because a cat had been playing with it for such a long time and now it was bored because the bird was hardly moving... needless to say neither my mum or I could 'do the deed'. ]

 

[mangoman]

yeh mercy killing is a different kettle of fish er or is it????? isnt whacking a rodent mercy killing? since its gonna die anyway but in a more humane way??

hey where did that saying come from "kettle of fish" :shock:

 

[Ramsayi]

How can anyone compare what happens in the wild to what happens in a cage?
Put hunter and hunted in a small box and you will see nature?

 

[OdessaStud]

Ramsayi I agree with you there is no comparison to wild animals and captive animals.We control everything with our captives from temp,to feed, and everything they need.In the wild they catch and kill their own prey,they dont freeze what they catch until it dies or eat what is already dead and cold.In keeping captive animals we the human have adapted their enviorment and their diet to suit ourselves.In doing that we have not been given permission to kill our feeders for our captive snakes in an inhumane way or feed them alive for the sole purpose of entertainment or because thats the easiest way to do it..???There a so many alternatives available now and so many excellent feeder breeders in Australia,that the squimish dont have to deal with killing their own and the feeders are cared for and then killed humanely. JMO
Odie

 

[mangoman]

I agree, in the wild we have no control over animals, but in our own homes we do, and because we are higher beings we can save em a bit of grief in the way they die! theres a significant difference between the two.

 

[Jungletrans]

Frozen rats

While I am very sure the rat breedars / sellers on this site do the right thing can we be sure about the others . I often buy frozen from 3 local herp shops and find a lot of the rats have blood on their faces . Dont think their death was all wine and roses .:shock:

 

[junglist*]

ooh geez. That animal lib nazi site is hilarious. Not only do they directly say that being a vegetarian is healthier for you, they also say if you're a vegan you're even healthier. Have they heard of omnivarianism??

Also the bit about not needing animal testing for medicinal development is an absolute lie.

 

[slim6y]

ooh geez. That animal lib nazi site is hilarious. Not only do they directly say that being a vegetarian is healthier for you, they also say if you're a vegan you're even healthier. Have they heard of omnivarianism??

Also the bit about not needing animal testing for medicinal development is an absolute lie.

I haven't read the site - but you're 100% right... a balanced diet consists of fresh meats, veges and macdonalds (neither meat nor vege)...

But the last part... I admit it is wrong using animals for medicinal purposes... But humans wouldbe better subjects... It's the cosmetic ones that rack me off the most. I remember seeing the poor bunny rabbits getting shampoo rubbed in their eyes etc... Was the most unpleasant thing i have seen... But... Through human stupidity we need to find the LD50 for shampoo... just incase someone ingests it in a suicidal manner.

On saying that... the only way the body shop can market products 'not tested on animals' is, and sad as it may seem, because the products had already passed the LD50 tests on pigs, rabbits, monkeys etc.... therefore they no longer need testing... As much as this has NOTHING to do with the topic... we're some 14 pages into the discussion so it didn't seem to matter... but to put it back on topic... Whack ya rats for a happier, healthier dead rat... and don't name them before ya whack em.. .just makes it harder!

 

[junglepython2]

While I am very sure the rat breedars / sellers on this site do the right thing can we be sure about the others . I often buy frozen from 3 local herp shops and find a lot of the rats have blood on their faces . Dont think their death was all wine and roses .:shock:

They were probably killed using the whack method which is quite acceptable.

 

[munkee]

One point I don't think hasn't been clarified is why freezing toads is okay and rats aren't.

Toads cannot thermoregulate. As they get colder in the freezer they slow down (response time, pain receptors, breathing etc) they don't shiver to try and keep warm. A rat or any warm blodded animal will sit in the cold and shiver to try and keep warm. If they cannot keep warm enough through shivering they start to get cold and then start to get sleepy and fall asleep/pass out and then die of hypothermia. It is not a fast process though.

I have kept rats for breeding and used the 'whack to the head' procedure. It is not the nicest way to do it for me but it kills the rats quickly with a minimum of time and fuss.

Whacking baby rats on the head is even easier than adults as they are far less likely to bite back . The One bite I got from a rats was miles more painful the worst snake bite I got and bled a heck of a lot more too.

 

[dellywatts]

I know of a couple of pet shops in melb that kill their mice and rats by putting them straight into the freezer! I would rather buy my mice with a little bit of blood on them than buy from places that let them slowly freeze to death!
By the way I have been vegetarian for 10 years and I have never had any health issues.