Geographic areas and overlaps

[Norm]

Ron I think the breeder of your snake has every right to label it McDowelli. I also think if you surveyed the people on here who know what they are talking about they would say she's an intergrade. You would also get some say she's a coastal and there might even be a couple that call her a diamond though not many IMO. I don't think I've ever seen you post her locality which would most certainly solve your confusion. If you could 100% say she descends from wild caught snakes from, say for example, Port Macquarie, you could say very confidently she's a Port Mac. That is the one question I would be asking the breeder if I were you, where did his snakes descend from? That should help you give her a locality based name. As to whether she's a M.S. Spilota of McDowelli, I really wouldn't have a clue and what ever she is currently recorded as is what I would be sticking with.

 

[ronhalling]

The breeders Female came from Kempsey and the Male was on permanent loan from a guy in Byron Bay who says it originated from a place called Marcoola on the sunshine coast, i hope that is of help Norm. ............................Ron

 

[thomasssss]

The breeders Female came from Kempsey and the Male was on permanent loan from a guy in Byron Bay who says it originated from a place called Marcoola on the sunshine coast, i hope that is of help Norm. ............................Ron

on that information then she would be a cross , not an intergrade

 

[Cockney_Red]

Please!!! It Is very SIMPLE!!!
I will as always on this subject, keep my own conference. Too many infractions and forced holidays over the years...

 

[ronhalling]

on that information then she would be a cross , not an intergrade

I fail to see how 2 Snakes both on the books as M.S. McDowelli could be construed as a "Cross", i have been willing to accept that my girl is an Intergrade, that was settled a long time back as i can see the influence of M.S.S and M.S.Mc in her,but if her mother was an Intergrade (which the breeder vehemently denies) and her father was a "pure" Coastal then doesn't that mean the prodgeny can only be "Intergrade" as there is no crossing, only line breeding if thats what they call it. ..........................Ron

 

[thomasssss]

I fail to see how 2 Snakes both on the books as M.S. McDowelli could be construed as a "Cross", i have been willing to accept that my girl is an Intergrade, that was settled a long time back as i can see the influence of M.S.S and M.S.Mc in her,but if her mother was an Intergrade (which the breeder vehemently denies) and her father was a "pure" Coastal then doesn't that mean the prodgeny can only be "Intergrade" as there is no crossing, only line breeding if thats what they call it. ..........................Ron

did you read the link i put up , the one by big guy ? if you did and still don't get why your girl isnt an intergrade then i dont think i can explain it any better

if both parents where from kempsey , then yes she would be an intergrade from the kempsey area , but as you just said they are not so she is effectively not an intergrade but a cross between 2 different locality animals whether there is any difference in DNA across the board is another matter

if you want to get into what they are on the books than thats perfectly fine , my jungle jag is down as mearly a jungle no crossing but we all know in our hearts this isnt the case

to sum it up though ron , no your girl isnt an intergrade


EDIT just re read your post and it made me wonder what your understanding of an intergrade is ? and intergade is NOT a cross between coastals or diamonds or coastals and jungle or any combination , intergrade is the term used to describe the animals found between the man made lines that we drew to define diamonds from coastals

intergrades are basically what has evolvedd as the morelia gunus slowly moves down the coast

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I fail to see how 2 Snakes both on the books as M.S. McDowelli could be construed as a "Cross", i have been willing to accept that my girl is an Intergrade, that was settled a long time back as i can see the influence of M.S.S and M.S.Mc in her,but if her mother was an Intergrade (which the breeder vehemently denies) and her father was a "pure" Coastal then doesn't that mean the prodgeny can only be "Intergrade" as there is no crossing, only line breeding if thats what they call it. ..........................Ron

Ron, you're getting far too tied up in semantics. You are trying to connect what is purely keeper/breeder personal opinion/terminology with scientific fact, and they will never come together in the way you want them to. I have a very firm idea of what I call a Diamond, an Intergrade, a cross and a Coastal. Others opinions obviously differ (although I'm right !) I can only call them as to how they look, because these days it's impossible to get a true idea of the background of any of these captive-bred Carpet-like snakes. I think an experienced eye can usually (I say that with reservation) tell something about the heritage of these animals, but not always.

The DNA science will tell you now that M.s. spilota & M.s. mcdowelli are very much the same species, so in terms of names, scientifically, the common names we use as keepers are irrelevant - all they do is give us interested amateurs an idea of the appearance and POSSIBLY the rough area from which they came. That's absolutely the most you can expect from common names. But in your case, if your snake's maternal genes came from Kempsey (regardless of what your breeder says, it's intergrade country) and the father was from up near the Qld border(definitely Coastal country), you have neither an Intergrade nor a Coastal - you have a geographical mix which may look like one or the other.

Captive breeding, both careless by ill-informed keepers, and deliberate by the experimenters, has totally corrupted the captive gene pool from which we draw most of our Carpet snakes. I would say that as time goes on we will be seeing a greater proportion of the offerings breeders have, that look like intergrades because the distinctive locality patterns will be mixed with so many other influences. The Intergrade appearance will become the default Carpet Python. Sad, I think, but the cat's already out of the bag on that one.

You are looking for a definitive answer to a question for which such an answer doesn't exist.

Btw, genus ALWAYS capital, species and subspecies ALWAYS lower case i.e., Morelia spilota spilota, Morelia spilota mcdowelli (although scientifically these names are pretty much defunct now because science no longer differentiates between these as subspecies...)

Jamie

 

[junglepython2]

I fail to see how 2 Snakes both on the books as M.S. McDowelli could be construed as a "Cross", i have been willing to accept that my girl is an Intergrade, that was settled a long time back as i can see the influence of M.S.S and M.S.Mc in her,but if her mother was an Intergrade (which the breeder vehemently denies) and her father was a "pure" Coastal then doesn't that mean the prodgeny can only be "Intergrade" as there is no crossing, only line breeding if thats what they call it. ..........................Ron

Ron, intergrades are from a specific area where one human defined form changes into another. Of course these are really part of a continuum that doesn't neatly fit into the boxes we try and create. Either way an intergrade is a pure form from a certain area. An intergrade comes about from two intergrade parents and not simply a diamond x coastal. In your case you have an intergrade mother crossed with an animal from the Sunny Coast that certainly isn't an intergrade. You can argue that your individual is a coastal with intergrade influence if you wanted but it certainly isn't an intergrade.

Unfortunately the term intergrade has been hijacked by people flogging off diamond cross coastals in the past and I have also noticed the Americans use the term very loosely to describe any old cross. Which in my eyes is incorrect and has led to all the confusion we always see in these type of threads.

 

[ronhalling]

did you read the link i put up , the one by big guy ? if you did and still don't get why your girl isnt an intergrade then i dont think i can explain it any better

if both parents where from kempsey , then yes she would be an intergrade from the kempsey area , but as you just said they are not so she is effectively not an intergrade but a cross between 2 different locality animals whether there is any difference in DNA across the board is another matter

if you want to get into what they are on the books than thats perfectly fine , my jungle jag is down as mearly a jungle no crossing but we all know in our hearts this isnt the case

to sum it up though ron , no your girl isnt an intergrade


EDIT just re read your post and it made me wonder what your understanding of an intergrade is ? and intergade is NOT a cross between coastals or diamonds or coastals and jungle or any combination , intergrade is the term used to describe the animals found between the man made lines that we drew to define diamonds from coastals

intergrades are basically what has evolvedd as the morelia gunus slowly moves down the coast

Thanks Thomasssss, i now know more about what an intergrade is thanks to Bigguy, Jamie, Norm and yourself, it is just the word "cross" that threw me for a loop as "cross" has never up to this point been used to describe an Intergrade. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions. ...................Ron

- - - Updated - - -

Ron, you're getting far too tied up in semantics. You are trying to connect what is purely keeper/breeder personal opinion/terminology with scientific fact, and they will never come together in the way you want them to. I have a very firm idea of what I call a Diamond, an Intergrade, a cross and a Coastal. Others opinions obviously differ (although I'm right !) I can only call them as to how they look, because these days it's impossible to get a true idea of the background of any of these captive-bred Carpet-like snakes. I think an experienced eye can usually (I say that with reservation) tell something about the heritage of these animals, but not always.

The DNA science will tell you now that M.s. spilota & M.s. mcdowelli are very much the same species, so in terms of names, scientifically, the common names we use as keepers are irrelevant - all they do is give us interested amateurs an idea of the appearance and POSSIBLY the rough area from which they came. That's absolutely the most you can expect from common names. But in your case, if your snake's maternal genes came from Kempsey (regardless of what your breeder says, it's intergrade country) and the father was from up near the Qld border(definitely Coastal country), you have neither an Intergrade nor a Coastal - you have a geographical mix which may look like one or the other.

Captive breeding, both careless by ill-informed keepers, and deliberate by the experimenters, has totally corrupted the captive gene pool from which we draw most of our Carpet snakes. I would say that as time goes on we will be seeing a greater proportion of the offerings breeders have, that look like intergrades because the distinctive locality patterns will be mixed with so many other influences. The Intergrade appearance will become the default Carpet Python. Sad, I think, but the cat's already out of the bag on that one.

You are looking for a definitive answer to a question for which such an answer doesn't exist.

Btw, genus ALWAYS capital, species and subspecies ALWAYS lower case i.e., Morelia spilota spilota, Morelia spilota mcdowelli (although scientifically these names are pretty much defunct now because science no longer differentiates between these as subspecies...)

Jamie

You are right i suppose Jamie, I do tend to over think some things and want deffinitive answers, i do like the term Geographic mix as opposed to "cross" as it is easier for me to get my simple mind around. As usual you have come to the rescue and saved me from making too big a deal out of a simple situation, i have way too much time on my hands and read way too many texts on particular subjects which sometimes tends to muddy my mind with conflicting information. If i had more time left on this Earthly Plane i would probably lobby for a new name for the animals we have in the Intergrade Zone, but alas and alack i don't so the status quo will have to remain. Sorry about the faux pas with the capitals, i get carried away when i type and did not notice i had done that. ...............................Ron

 

[thomasssss]

Thanks Thomasssss, i now know more about what an intergrade is thanks to Bigguy, Jamie, Norm and yourself, it is just the word "cross" that threw me for a loop as "cross" has never up to this point been used to describe an Intergrade. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions. ...................Ron

i really am only repeating what ive learned from mainly those you've mentioned although i wasnt using the word cross to describe an intergrade ( as an intergrade is far from a cross) i was using it to describe your girl in particular , the reason i said shes a locality cross is because of all the recent discussion about genetics and them essentially being the same , it has provoked alot of thought in what we call pure

when were talking intergrades it is important that atleast both parents are intergrades once an intergrade has been out over something from alot further north the offspring aren't intergrades

the 4th paragraph down in that post made by bigguy , although short it sums it up pretty well imo ive just copied and pasted it below to so people dont have to jump back and forth

"Nowhere in Australia is there a area where one subspecies just magically turned into the next. This was a suttle change, and in most areas it took many hundreds of kilometers for the changes to fully occur. These buffer zones between the 2 distinct sub species are known as the intergrade zones."

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Bigguy pretty much nails it I think in that post. Ron, if you're up for a visit at any time, I'm in Port almost every day for one reason or another, pm me and I'll swing by and cast my "expert" eye over your girl - we can even swap myocardial infarct stories !

Jamie

 

[Norm]

I think this thread highlights the problem we have with the term intergrade. Used in the correct way and by keepers who understand what the term means, it is an accurate and satisfactory name. However as we can see here there are keepers who think they understand it, (and I must say I`m surprised at Ron) but haven't grasped the basic fact that intergrade DOES NOT mean cross.
You`ll probably notice that I haven't gotten too involved in the scientific/DNA side of things in this thread, I don't know enough about it and would rather leave it to those who do. But from the point of view of common names I really do think something other than intergrade would be better, ideally locality based names.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Norm, a major part of the problem results from the huge influx of people into reptile keeping in the last 15 years - people who have absolutely no fundamental knowledge of reptile ecology or even physiology - they are seen and purchased as "pets" and those who acquire them give scant or no thought at all to what these creatures are and the niches they fill in our landscape, why or how they do what they do, or live as they do. They get a set of instructions which the intuitive ones interpret well, and those without intuition continue to balls-up.

In the "old days" reptiles were largely kept by those who went out into the bush, made heaps of observations, and generally kept animals which they caught themselves. These days there is a total disconnect between most reptile pet-keepers and the bush. It's painfully obvious from the stuff that comes up on the forums that most keepers are clueless about reptile ecology and physiology, and many of those have no interest in expanding their knowledge beyond providing the fundamentals for their snake's survival. The reasons for keeping reptiles have changed over the years, as have the sorts of people keeping them.

None of the above comments were directed at Ron by the way.

Jamie

 

[Norm]

Well put Jamie

 

[ronhalling]

In some ways your comments and observations do relate to me Jamie, as when i got out of Arachnids and into Reptiles it was on a pet basis at first and the physiology and ecological niches that these Reptiles fit in was not a concern as i did not want to become as single minded as i was with the Arachnids, but with time and tide my inevitable curiosity started to pique and i was no longer satisfied with just having a pet, i had to know everything i possibly could about our big girl and now it looks like i will probably go the same way with my Spotties, whether this is a good thing or not only time will tell. Please do not feel i am being arguementative or trying to stir things up with my posts, it is just that when i thought i had everything clear in my mind about Intergrades, Intergrade Zones and Geographical Crosses someone posts something and the discussions that follow are sometimes at odds with information previously posted. Jamie, Norm, Thomasssss and Blue i have nothing but the utmost respect for your opinions and knowledge that has been gleened from decades in the game and i feel i have volumes left to learn from you, so don't ever feel you need to sugar coat anything for fear of upsetting me, my skin is like the rest of me...thick, so if it looks like i have or are going to cross a line please feel free to tell me. ....................................Ron

 

[Norm]

No sweat Ron, that's why the majority of us are here, to learn.
One other thing Ron, I don't really belong in the same sentence as those other guys! I`m not that much different to yourself except I started with reptiles and snakes in particular when I was a young teenager. I had a wild caught diamond and used to bring home various reptiles including red bellies and eastern browns, keep them for a little while and then release them back where I got them. My current interest in reptiles has been fairly recent though I never lost the interest from when I was young. I guess in relation to Jamies last post, I`ve got a foot in both camps!
Living right on the imaginary line where diamonds meet intergrades I have a particular love of these two pythons and find the intergrade debate very interesting. I`m very keen to do some field herping to learn more than just what I read on here or in books.

 

[thomasssss]

.
One other thing Ron, I don't really belong in the same sentence as those other guys! s.

yea me either , hahaha , flattered ron but as i said i really have only relayed to you what i have learnt from these guys their a knowledgeable bunch

 

[TrueBlue]

Sorry guys but you are wrong.
You do belong in the same sentance as everyone else on here that has the same understanding of what a intergrade is, and what a repltile really is, for that matter.
Everyone belongs in the same sentance when it boils down to it, after all are we all not here to learn about reptiles and shear onfo.