Good Ol' Gumtree

[Fall guys]

Not my pictures - off ARE facebook page

But good lord

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Hehe... I've seen Murray river turtles advertised on Gumtree.... for $650. Lol they're as common as the cold and are the most genetically tainted species on the continent with no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade... tops they're worth like $45. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and laugh.

 

[Neil j]

The thing is with out anybody breeding bredli, due to their low value,low variation, huge clutches what ever. Their availability has fallen and the price can be hiked but not that much not right now. Probably ever.

When the opertunity finally came up to sell my adult girls a couple of years back I was like 100 dollars if you take both.

 

[Sdaji]

Hehe... I've seen Murray river turtles advertised on Gumtree.... for $650. Lol they're as common as the cold and are the most genetically tainted species on the continent with no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade... tops they're worth like $45. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and laugh.

What do you mean by 'genetically tainted' and having 'no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade'?

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

What do you mean by 'genetically tainted' and having 'no genetic integrity at all in the captive trade'?

Too many people keep various Emydura sp together from various locations... Macleays, Krefft's, Hunter river, Clarence river, Brisbane river, Murray's etc and they interbreed. As they are all sub species of the Murray river turtle, they are all just sold under the blanket category of "Murray's" which they are not... there are also many known "tainted painteds" for sale which aren't pure Emydura subglobosa but subglobosa × krefftii.

Basically you've got no way of knowing what a store bought Emydura sp actually is.

 

[cris]

Too many people keep various Emydura sp together from various locations... Macleays, Krefft's, Hunter river, Clarence river, Brisbane river, Murray's etc and they interbreed. As they are all sub species of the Murray river turtle, they are all just sold under the blanket category of "Murray's" which they are not... there are also many known "tainted painteds" for sale which aren't pure Emydura subglobosa but subglobosa × krefftii.

Basically you've got no way of knowing what a store bought Emydura sp actually is.

Dats rasis.

 

[Sdaji]

Dats rasis.

Heh heh. Imagine if we took the rules which are apparently of critical importance for animals and applied them to humans! But fear not, there is no apparent risk of sanity or logical consistency being introduced to the system.

I'd love to watch the social meltdown if human genetics suddenly had political correctness removed and there was a genuine free flow of real information put into the genetics journals. Haha, it would probably literally cause a world war. But it's cool, there are totally, completely and utterly no genetic differences between the radically different races of humans. Oh, I mean, race doesn't even exist! But animals which freely and routinely interbreed in the wild and are all part of one big population... nah, they're totally completely different species.

I don't think people really care about the specifics of the taxonomy of their pet Emydura. It's still a cute turtle and that's all they want.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not racist and will have hybrid/half breed kids of my own. But while humans are obviously of utmost importance, this issue is SO MUCH not a problem that it's literally illegal to even suggest that it might be a problem... but when it comes to mere pet animals of no ecological relevance, making hybrids is illegal and in some case is punishable by (their own) death!

Well done, humans! You totally have logic sorted out.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I don't think people really care about the specifics of the taxonomy of their pet Emydura. It's still a cute turtle and that's all they want.

No, many people probably don't care (ignorance is bliss) and if it were confined to captivity it's not a big problem but the REALITY is most people DO care and it's not confined to captivity and when they've forked out the money for a Macleay river turtle which over 6-7 years grows to a max SCL of 14cm (male) 18cm (female) and the appropriate 4ft setup and all equipment only to discover their 18 month old 40cm "Macleay" now can't even turn around in its aquarium... this is where the problems begin... if those turtles escape from poorly constructed slap together outdoor ponds (turtles can climb very well) or are released/dumped into the wild because the keeper lost interest or is disgusted that the "Macleay" they bought grew to the size of a dinner plate... then it becomes a huge problem. It probably doesn't happen a lot in this country with most captive snakes and lizards but it happens a lot with turtles and the damage done is irreversible.

It's no different to someone purchasing a mini foxy pup that turns out to be a Dalmatian. Imagine getting an Antaresia perthenis after waiting several seasons only to find you need to start breeding rabbits to feed the 8ft serpent it turned into..

Here is an adult m/f breeding pair of Macleays (the smallest Emydura sp on the east coast of Australia) that are 7 years old. (These are what most people getting into turtles want... because they're small and stay small and can be kept indoors for life.)

Here is a 7 year old Murray... do you still think the difference is negligible??

Photo credit Paul Price

The 2 can interbreed freely and at hatching, it is very difficult for an inexperienced person to know the difference between the 2 (although a clutch of 35 would raise some red flags when Macleays only lay 6-9 eggs) so they go by what the breeder says and or the store assistant and when they pay for 1 and get the other... well many people get p***ed off and turtles get dumped. Up here in Toowoomba, our local city park lakes are all teeming with dumped store bought Emydura hybrids... the local signata populations have been destroyed. It sucks. Right up the coast of eastern Australia, whole local populations of wild turtles are being genetically ruined like in the Hunter River and worse... annihilated like what happened in the Bellinger. Dumped hybrid Murray's are also causing a serious decline in the remaining wild population of the critically endangered Manning River turtle.

If you actually want to get what you pay for, I'd recommend Never purchasing an Emydura sp from a store or Gumtree.

 

[GBWhite]

What happened to the Bellinger River Turtle had nothing to do with Emydura. It was a result of a virus that was introduced to the river. There is also no evidence what so ever that the Emydura are an introduced species to the river. In fact it wasn't that long ago that it was put forward to have them classified as an endangered species, endemic only to the Bellinger River (Bellingen River Emydura).

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

What happened to the Bellinger River Turtle had nothing to do with Emydura. It was a result of a virus that was introduced to the river. There is also no evidence what so ever that the Emydura are an introduced species to the river. In fact it wasn't that long ago that it was put forward to have them classified as an endangered species, endemic only to the Bellinger River (Bellingen River Emydura).

No it had nothing to do with the Emydura that were present in the system already but I'd bet my bottom dollar it has plenty to do with dumped captive turtles into the river.
Also George, the Emydura were introduced to the river as we have confirmed evidence of the mating with georgesi. This results in sterile hybrid turtles that are unable to reproduce. If the Emydura were always present in the Bellinger, the Bellinger River snapper would have been extinct hundreds of years ago. I'm sorry but that theory is total garbage whether you want to agree with it or not. Prior to man's interference, there were no Emydura present in the Bellinger or Manning systems.

 

[GBWhite]

There's a lot more to the introduction of the virus than you'll ever know. Mate there is no evidence that any captive Emydura were dumped in the Bellinger, it's just speculation by Ricky Spencer and I wouldn't be surprised that the speculation has more to do with acquiring ongoing funding than anything else. If you want to know the truth, what happened back in the 90's was that when the mob were here doing their study on the Emydura that were all ready present in the river one of the rangers from Coffs thought he would help and arrived with half a dozen that he'd collected from the Orara. When it was explained to him that the ones he brought with him were not conducive to the study he left them in a covered box on a the side of the river while he went looking for turtles with the mob and when they returned they discovered that some had escaped. Just because there are confirmed hybrids means jack ****. For all we know this could have been happening for eons but has only come to light since the situation with the virus.

 

[cris]

In any case, keeping a race that is not from your local area presents the same potential risk if it is pure or a hybrid. It is a good reason to allow the local races or species to be collected for people who keep wildlife.

Heh heh. Imagine if we took the rules which are apparently of critical importance for animals and applied them to humans! But fear not, there is no apparent risk of sanity or logical consistency being introduced to the system.

I was listening to someone making this case a couple days ago. (warning video contains autistic white nationalists lol)

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

George let's just agree to disagree on the origin of the Bellinger River Emydura. This has nothing to do with Ricky Spencer or any other paper pusher's "theories." AFT has been monitoring the river systems of NSW long before they started paying any attention and long before the virus outbreak we were already concerned for the future of georgesi due to the negative impact being made on them by the presence of the INTRODUCED Emydura. The virus outbreak just made the existing problem 1000 times worse. Bottom line is those in the actual know, know it (Emydura sp) was never present before man interfered and the DNA samples of the Emydura sp from the Bellinger, Manning and the other second Emydura sp #2 from the Hunter are all one and the same, neither are a unique species worthy of conservative effort nor are they endangered in the slightest. If you connect all the dots it forms a straight line back over the GDR to the Macquarie river as that's where they all ultimately came from since the pet trade opened up. The same way Mary river turtles and southern snappers wound up in park lakes in Sydney. The original "penny turtles".
The Bellinger, Manning and Hunter systems only ever had 2 endemic turtle species... longicollis & georgesi, longicollis & purvisi, longicollis & E.m gunabarra respectively.

As for the virus' introduction into the Bellinger... I won't argue with what you think you know.

 

[GBWhite]

As for the virus' introduction into the Bellinger... I won't argue with what you think you know.

Ditto.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Ditto.

Inevitably I will be in and passing through your neck of the woods again in the future as my work with the Manning River turtles continues. We can continue this bellinger turtle virus conversation in person. You can tell me what you and your buddies think might have happened and then I'll enlighten you. Until then...

 

[GBWhite]

Yeah, thanks but no thanks. Don't need to be enlightened. My buddies are involved with the whole thing. One in particular has been involved since day one, he was actually the one that notified EPI after another one of my buddies discovered the dead and dying turtles. So all the info I get is direct from the horses mouth.

 

[Fall guys]

I’ll make sure to ask about Kev mckay and what he does next time I see my coworkers who directly work with bellinger river turtle conservation program and are also part of AFT

I’ll get back to you next time I see them

 

[Stompsy]

George let's just agree to disagree on the origin of the Bellinger River Emydura.

As for the virus' introduction into the Bellinger... I won't argue with what you think you know.

Inevitably I will be in and passing through your neck of the woods again in the future as my work with the Manning River turtles continues. We can continue this bellinger turtle virus conversation in person. You can tell me what you and your buddies think might have happened and then I'll enlighten you. Until then...

Are you agreeing to disagree or not Kev?

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Are you agreeing to disagree or not Kev?

Yeah it's done stomps. All good, no need to keep it going now.

 

[Sdaji]

No, many people probably don't care (ignorance is bliss) and if it were confined to captivity it's not a big problem but the REALITY is most people DO care and it's not confined to captivity and when they've forked out the money for a Macleay river turtle which over 6-7 years grows to a max SCL of 14cm (male) 18cm (female) and the appropriate 4ft setup and all equipment only to discover their 18 month old 40cm "Macleay" now can't even turn around in its aquarium... this is where the problems begin... if those turtles escape from poorly constructed slap together outdoor ponds (turtles can climb very well) or are released/dumped into the wild because the keeper lost interest or is disgusted that the "Macleay" they bought grew to the size of a dinner plate... then it becomes a huge problem. It probably doesn't happen a lot in this country with most captive snakes and lizards but it happens a lot with turtles and the damage done is irreversible.

It's no different to someone purchasing a mini foxy pup that turns out to be a Dalmatian. Imagine getting an Antaresia perthenis after waiting several seasons only to find you need to start breeding rabbits to feed the 8ft serpent it turned into..

Here is an adult m/f breeding pair of Macleays (the smallest Emydura sp on the east coast of Australia) that are 7 years old. (These are what most people getting into turtles want... because they're small and stay small and can be kept indoors for life.)
View attachment 325563

Here is a 7 year old Murray... do you still think the difference is negligible??
View attachment 325561
Photo credit Paul Price

The 2 can interbreed freely and at hatching, it is very difficult for an inexperienced person to know the difference between the 2 (although a clutch of 35 would raise some red flags when Macleays only lay 6-9 eggs) so they go by what the breeder says and or the store assistant and when they pay for 1 and get the other... well many people get p***ed off and turtles get dumped. Up here in Toowoomba, our local city park lakes are all teeming with dumped store bought Emydura hybrids... the local signata populations have been destroyed. It sucks. Right up the coast of eastern Australia, whole local populations of wild turtles are being genetically ruined like in the Hunter River and worse... annihilated like what happened in the Bellinger. Dumped hybrid Murray's are also causing a serious decline in the remaining wild population of the critically endangered Manning River turtle.

If you actually want to get what you pay for, I'd recommend Never purchasing an Emydura sp from a store or Gumtree.

That was an awfully long post aimed at telling me a lot of stuff I already know and agree with and a couple of things which are wrong. I have formal qualifications in zoology, genetics and ecology and decades of experience breeding reptiles, so you don't need to explain these concepts to me.

I'm not saying purity is unimportant, but I am saying most people don't care. Put it this way, if they did care they'd be bothering to get pure stuff. Most people who buy baby turtles don't even keep them alive for a year. You can give however many examples of lovely people who adore their turtles, know all about them and do a fantastic job, but your own acknowledgement that mudbloods abound demonstrates that people don't care; if they did care everything would be pure. It is only because people don't care that the purity and genetic identity is not being kept track of.

For me personally, yep, I'd prefer something pure. Most people just want a pet turtle and wouldn't even know the word emeedoorwasomethingorother. As someone else said, hybrids pose no more risk than a 100% pure animal outside its own range, so if you think this is a concern it is reason to ban them all from captivity entirely, pure or not (this is not my position, though I do think the release of captive animals, accidental or deliberate, is a big problem, and we really should get rid of the myth that releasing animals into the wild is a noble thing, which is almost universally believed by everyone other than qualified ecologists). I used to be quite fanatical about locality (not just taxonomic) purity when breeding reptiles, and of the thousands of people I've sold reptiles to, almost none have cared about their often interesting backgrounds and histories and have been confused at why I've bothered to try to tell them. The vast majority of people just don't care. I wish everyone was as interested as you and I are, but however much we want it, and even if it would be better, it's just not the reality.