Good Ol' Gumtree

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Cheers Sdaji - although you feel the release of captive animals into the wild isn't such a big deal, it really is as far as turtles go. In a semi-controlled captive situation for example if someone had a pond of Krefft's and a pond of Murray's separated but somehow 1 Murray got into the krefft pond, it can mate with all the females and those females will have hybrid offspring for the next 4 year's as a result. I know of blokes that had it happen with their murrays and signata... they did the right thing and froze all the eggs laid for the 4 following years. Now in the wild... when that happens... it just snowballs out of control thy hybrid Emydura grow up and reproduce and keep further diluting the genetics of the endemic population. It's another problem altogether when they start mating out of their species like with georgesi and purvisi (which is happening) those offspring are sterile hybrids.

Anyway, it is what it is. Maybe you're right maybe only you and I care.

 

[Sdaji]

Cheers Sdaji - although you feel the release of captive animals into the wild isn't such a big deal, it really is as far as turtles go. In a semi-controlled captive situation for example if someone had a pond of Krefft's and a pond of Murray's separated but somehow 1 Murray got into the krefft pond, it can mate with all the females and those females will have hybrid offspring for the next 4 year's as a result. I know of blokes that had it happen with their murrays and signata... they did the right thing and froze all the eggs laid for the 4 following years. Now in the wild... when that happens... it just snowballs out of control thy hybrid Emydura grow up and reproduce and keep further diluting the genetics of the endemic population. It's another problem altogether when they start mating out of their species like with georgesi and purvisi (which is happening) those offspring are sterile hybrids.

Anyway, it is what it is. Maybe you're right maybe only you and I care.

Dude, why would you tell me I feel the release of captive animals into the wild isn't a big deal immediately after I bluntly state the exact opposite?

And again you bang on trying to convince me of stuff I already 100% agree with and am very familiar with.

I'm sure it's not just you and I who care, but the vast majority don't - if they did, these problems wouldn't exist. The vast majority either just want to make money, or they just want a cute pet turtle and have no idea how large it will grow, don't have any concept of genetics or taxonomy and don't want to bother learning.

You really should be focussing on the fact that pure turtles outside of their natural range are just as harmful or worse than hybrids. A sterile hybrid isn't going to cause any dramas if released. A pure turtle outside of its range is either going to createall hybrids which are sterile, or worse, hybrids which are fertile. A fertile hybrid won't cause any extra damage.

I definitely see the problems existing, I just don't think many people care or understand, and even if they did understand, most people still wouldn't care. Talk to people about it, and not just educated, intelligent, aware people, but typical people. They don't get far past 'turtles are cute! Releasing animals into the wild is good, it's where they are supposed to be'. 20 years ago I used to beat my head against the proverbial brick wall when trying to talk people out of releasing frogs and snakes outside their natural distributions. After about 10 years I realised the only difference between trying and giving up was how much less my head hurt after giving up.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Sorry I misread a line in your previous post, my bad, I'm still at work. Yeah the entire Emydura complex is shot to shyte now and is why I got out of it entirely 2 years ago. I'll never keep Emydura sp again, there's no point. Here's to less headaches in a few years time when I've fully let it go. Lol

My biggest gripe is that within fragile systems like the Manning, where Emydura × Emydura hybrids that grow twice as big, twice as fast and sexually mature in 1/3 of the time and have clutches twice as big (every year compared to only 75% of purvisi breeding in any one season once they're 20 years old) - are running riot and quickly displacing and outcompeting the endemic species. Hybrids both fertile (Emydura × Emydura) and infertile (Emydura × Flaviemys) are a problem as they either compete directly or indirectly with the endemic species and Emydura are the most aggressive turtle species in Australia, turtle rapists... literally.. have you ever seen them in action? On several occasions I had to save a female Macleay from being drowned in my captive setups, it ain't pretty to watch, it's brutal and they usually need to spend up to a month in dry-dock after mating so their wounds can heal. I've kept small Emydura macquarii dharra captive with purvisi for 4 years as an experiment to see how the presence of Emydura affects them and they (purvisi) never once looked like breeding until the weeks after the Emydura were removed. Even though they were half the size, they have typical emydura attitude, like small dog syndrome. Once gone, Flaviemys (very shy, reserved, non aggressive, placid species) became totally different turtles and started behaving and interacting normally instead of hiding away during the daylight hours. This is the REALITY in the wild. In places where you used to be able to dive and see purvisi, are now totally inhabited by rogue Murray's.The Emydura and Emydura hybrids will ultimately suppress, stress and breed out until they cause the extinction of severely fragmented monotypic species like georgesi and purvisi. And this will be the end result of dumped pre-loved pets. They (Emydura) didn't get in there all on their own. Mother nature isn't that stupid, only humans are.
Pure turtles outside their natural range could be a problem except no one is dumping pure highly sought after species like Mary's, southern, northern and gulf snappers, pig-nose, Irwins, northern yellow faced, etc. anymore, they're far too hard to come by with no one breeding them... the dumping of turtles is pretty much restricted to the widely and readily available store bought Emydura complex because they're ultimately pond turtles not fit to spend life in indoor aquariums (they don't tell you this at point of purchase), unless the keeper is prepared to invest in monstrous setups that chew serious $$$ in power and dedicate the time to maintain it.

But... I'll get over it. One day. I can always look at pictures of our monotypic turtles in books and remember when they used to exist.

Ps. You'll need to give me your secret to giving up on people.

 

[Sdaji]

Yeah, again, I totally agree with you and understand your concerns. Even in Melbourne the Emyduras are becoming established. When I was a kid I never saw an Emydura near Melbourne, but now they're quite common (hybrids, I assume, though I'm not 100% sure and it can be difficult to identify hybrids). Your concerns are totally valid and it's a great shame. Probably an even bigger concern will be the inevitable coming of the sliders, which will make the Emydura hybrid issue look like a blessing. But I wouldn't be surprised if even among the members of this forum here, if push came to shove and they were personally forced to either release sliders or kill them, more than half would release them, and I have no doubt more than half would release Emyduras outside their natural range rather than kill, and I bet more than half wouldn't even see it as a bad thing, or they'd sort of feel confused about things but would mostly just feel good about releasing an animal into the wild 'where it belongs'.

You'd probably enjoy seeing all the waterways in Thailand and sometimes in nearby countries, where people routinely buy turtles at the market to release. They are farmed and sold in large numbers specifically for the purpose of release to 'gain merit'. When I first saw them years ago I assumed they were being sold as food, and the first time I went to Lumpini park in Bangkok and saw the astonishing density of turtles in all the lakes I thought locals must just be feeding them a lot, allowing them to breed up to crazy numbers.

And yep, people release sliders to gain merit too, though most commonly it's another species (I can't recall which, despite seeing many thousands of them for sale! Oops!). You're actually making me feel inclined to get into the habit of harvesting and eating them.

Don't expect too much critical thinking or sanity from people or you'll be disappointed.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Yeah, again, I totally agree with you and understand your concerns. Even in Melbourne the Emyduras are becoming established. When I was a kid I never saw an Emydura near Melbourne, but now they're quite common (hybrids, I assume, though I'm not 100% sure and it can be difficult to identify hybrids). Your concerns are totally valid and it's a great shame. Probably an even bigger concern will be the inevitable coming of the sliders, which will make the Emydura hybrid issue look like a blessing. But I wouldn't be surprised if even among the members of this forum here, if push came to shove and they were personally forced to either release sliders or kill them, more than half would release them, and I have no doubt more than half would release Emyduras outside their natural range rather than kill, and I bet more than half wouldn't even see it as a bad thing, or they'd sort of feel confused about things but would mostly just feel good about releasing an animal into the wild 'where it belongs'.

You'd probably enjoy seeing all the waterways in Thailand and sometimes in nearby countries, where people routinely buy turtles at the market to release. They are farmed and sold in large numbers specifically for the purpose of release to 'gain merit'. When I first saw them years ago I assumed they were being sold as food, and the first time I went to Lumpini park in Bangkok and saw the astonishing density of turtles in all the lakes I thought locals must just be feeding them a lot, allowing them to breed up to crazy numbers.

And yep, people release sliders to gain merit too, though most commonly it's another species (I can't recall which, despite seeing many thousands of them for sale! Oops!). You're actually making me feel inclined to get into the habit of harvesting and eating them.

Don't expect too much critical thinking or sanity from people or you'll be disappointed.

Ah yes, the sliders... I already have one of my own... preserved for eternity in resin. Just looking at the situation in New Zealand makes me lose sleep!

I saw a documentary, on sbs I think it was a while back now about the whole turtle release thing over in those countries. It's amazing what people will do on mass if they're led to believe it will benefit them in some way...

Hehe thanks for the tip. Lowering my expectations right now. Lol

 

[Sdaji]

Ps. You'll need to give me your secret to giving up on people.

I just learned to take a real world approach to things. The world is not what you want it to be, it is what it is. This is a basic concept most people can't grasp. It goes against human nature to see the world as it is and not what it should be (or what you think it should be).

I haven't really given up on people and do often make attempts to educate them if the opportunity to do it arises or I just feel so inclined, but I am realistic about how impossible it is to change the big picture and am generally at peace with it. Trying to fix stupid people is a bit like getting furious and frustrated and running around all day every day searching for Cane Toads and squeezing the life out of each one you find. After a lifetime you'd have made no impact on the toads and simply have ruined your life by wasting it on an unpleasant task which achieved nothing. I suppose my trying to educate people now is a little like running over a toad if I only have to slightly swerve for it, but knowing it won't change anything. That saying along the lines of 'learn to change what you can, ignore what you can't, and recognise the difference' comes to mind, even if the wording doesn't
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Ah yes, the sliders... I already have one of my own... preserved for eternity in resin. Just looking at the situation in New Zealand makes me lose sleep!

I saw a documentary, on sbs I think it was a while back now about the whole turtle release thing over in those countries. It's amazing what people will do on mass if they're led to believe it will benefit them in some way...

Hehe thanks for the tip. Lowering my expectations right now. Lol

I hadn't seen the turtle release docos and knew nothing of it until I was witnessing it first hand.

Don't lose sleep over it and come to terms with the slider invasion now, because I'm almost 100% certain it's inevitable. They keep popping up all over the country, so presumably it can't be stopped. Terrible shame, but what can you do? It is probably already happening and in full swing, but as your signature says, is happening slowly. It will be interesting to see if Corn Snakes end up establishing themselves, and if so, how much damage they will do. There are other species I'm sure could cause problems, but I don't even want to name them for fear of encouraging people to release some.

...and many people still want to legalise exotics!

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I just learned to take a real world approach to things. The world is not what you want it to be, it is what it is. This is a basic concept most people can't grasp. It goes against human nature to see the world as it is and not what it should be (or what you think it should be).

I haven't really given up on people and do often make attempts to educate them if the opportunity to do it arises or I just feel so inclined, but I am realistic about how impossible it is to change the big picture and am generally at peace with it. Trying to fix stupid people is a bit like getting furious and frustrated and running around all day every day searching for Cane Toads and squeezing the life out of each one you find. After a lifetime you'd have made no impact on the toads and simply have ruined your life by wasting it on an unpleasant task which achieved nothing. I suppose my trying to educate people now is a little like running over a toad if I only have to slightly swerve for it, but knowing it won't change anything. That saying along the lines of 'learn to change what you can, ignore what you can't, and recognise the difference' comes to mind, even if the wording doesn't

Woah... You literally took the words (almost) right off my trusty old bookmark. I get what you're saying, I guess I just need to put it into practice.

 

[Sdaji]

Yeah, that's the quote. I can see why the message stuck in my head but not the crap about god, serenity and courage. Wisdom makes sense though (for all of it), and the result (rather than requirement) is a greater feeling of serenity. Other than the flaws, it's a very good message.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Hehe so back to the original topic... good old Gumtree... heck yeah!! Where's my wallet?! Murray's now come in a "long-neck" option apparently (takes a breath and counts to 1000) and only $200. That's a steal!


Please view this ad:

Turtles for sale,
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/crai...ampaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_android

Price: $200 Negotiable

 

[Sdaji]

Hehe so back to the original topic... good old Gumtree... heck yeah!! Where's my wallet?! Murray's now come in a "long-neck" option apparently (takes a breath and counts to 1000) and only $200. That's a steal!


Please view this ad:

Turtles for sale,
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/crai...ampaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_android

Price: $200 Negotiable

Heh heh heh!

If searching for examples of stupidity online is your thing, you will never, ever, ever be disappointed.