GTP problems

[PrecisionPythons]

My female GTP has problems defecating, the last two times after feeding she has swollen at the vent and been unable to go to the toilet for weeks. I soak her in a bath and massage her to assist going to the toilet and eventually she does. I took her to the vet, the vet seems to think she may have arthritis near her vent. she does have a spinal kink near her vent as well. From her vent down, the last two sheds have been very bad having to assist shed the tail for more than an hour as it goes very hard and scaley but the rest of her body is fine. She does lack movement from her vent down. (Tail hangs)

I have noticed my female drinks ALOT of water when I daily mist her so she is dehydrated to some degree. I started spraying her twice a day to help with this.

I currently keep 3 GTPs and the other two are males, they are both fine defecate/shed unassisted.

Has anyone had similar problems, I have read on other forums this is common for female GTPs (tail hanging and defecation problems)
.
Any advice from GTP keepers would be much appreciated as I am trying to avoid her prolapsing.
I am going to downsize her food to weaner rats on her next feed.

 

[bigg_bunny]

You can`t have arthritis in the spine as its not a true synovial joint but rather an articulation between individual spinal vertebrae. By definition , true arthritis is impossible. What may be occurring is pressure on the spinal cord or nerve roots emanating from between the vertebrae, This would result in poor muscle tone both in the muscle groups around the vertebrae [ paralumbar ] as well as muscle in the intestinal wall. This would cause the constipation , poor shedding and " limp tail syndrome " you have noticed.If it has been present for a while there is no treatment except palliation [ assisted shedding , faecal softeners , diet adjustment etc]. Check to see if the snake has a pain/withdrawal reaction when you pinch her tail [ gently ] and see if she reacts to the stimuli. If she does not react and there is no muscle tone, then there is no chance of normal function. In addition , if there is spinal damage above the level of the cloacal opening then she would probably have poor tone in the muscle around the vent. If " limp tail syndrome " occurs above the level of the vent then there will be ongoing problems for life. Prolapse is unlikely unless anal tone is lost and the vent remains semi-open. Prolapse would occur if the snake was straining to defaecate but this would not occur if muscle tone was absent. As it is , constipation occurs because lack of muscle tone and contraction in the terminal gut prevents voluntary defaecation. Hope not. Good luck.

 

[PrecisionPythons]

Thanks for your educated reply, and yes what you have said is what the vet had said to me I took it as partial arthritis. The GTP does have some feeling in the tail when i touch it she does respond.

In your opinion, is there any measures I should be taking to help treat the issue or is it one of those things where I may have to be assisting her with defecating and shedding.

 

[bigg_bunny]

The only help you can provide is through good husbandry as conditions such as these are beyond treatment in a medical sense. The primary problems will be with defaecation , shedding and locomotion , as you have noted. Being an arboreal species , your python should function adequately and , as it is an adult , should not be shedding too regularly. If constipation should occur , then warm baths , but , more importantly , lubrication and gentle massage should be help enough. If these problems occurred for whatever reason in a wild snake then they would probably not be survivable but with good management in captivity your python should remain healthy. Having said that , do not expect the snake to have the normal life span of a healthy reptile. Complications of some kind almost always arise. Luck.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Excellent and informative responses bb. I believe that the biggest problem facing GTPs in home enclosures is inactivity and its resulting loss of muscle tone. GTPs, especially adult females are unbelievably inactive in home enclosures, and are simply blobs of protoplasm on a perch, often for weeks at a time. They don't move because they don't have to - they thermoregulate by finding a suitable spot and staying there 24/7, with the occasional adjustment of coils, and reaching down for an occasional drink. They can do this for months at a time.

In the wild, they have to move around to thermoregulate, if there are breezes they have to cling to their resting place (rather than just draping over it), and they have to move on a regular basis to an ambush position in order to feed.

I have a 10 year old female which is a chronic tail hanger, and which can look like a flat leather belt draped over the perch. She often extrudes a frightening looking large part of the bowel when she defecates, causing concerns of prolapse. I'm currently seeing if regular enforced exercise (on the lawn and in shrubs outside) will bring about any improvement in muscle tone. Her tail is very responsive when I tweak it btw.

I'll keep you posted...

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

A song to my ears Jamie, couldn't agree more.

I had similar, if not the same case just few weeks ago. The snake had a vertebral abscess caused by bacterial infection, putting pressure on the spinal chord. The snake gradually lost control over the posterior part its body (past the abscess), lost muscle tone etc., as described by bb. There was no improvement after series of anti-inflammatory and antibiotic injections and the snake had to be euthanized. I hope you have better luck with yours.

Michael

 

[Bushman]

Great replies that are well informed and very insightful.
I've had similar problems with one of my adult females that eventually prolapsed. She has since improved but my understanding after speaking to a few herp vets, is that the condition is not reversible. Innervation is compromised posterior to the kink and is not treatable. However, there are things that can be done to keep them in good health, depending on the severity of the case. Can you post some good quality pics up of the area in question?

I couldn't agree more about increased exercise being beneficial for captive GTP's. I've been regularly "free-ranging" my greens for some time now with good results e.g noticeably improved muscle tone.
Adequate hydration is absolutely essential, especially around digestion. Fresh water should be provided prior to, during and I believe particularly towards the end of the process, as dehydration can make the faeces drier and harder to pass.
Keep meal sizes small, as you mentioned that you're going to try and do. No bigger than an adult mouse imo. Following prolapse start even smaller to help prevent it happening again. Some vets even recommend liquid feeds while recovering from prolapse. Hopefully your animal won't get to that stage. How old is she?

 

[PrecisionPythons]

My gtp female is around 4 yo give or take. I've been spraying her twice a day now and she does seem less dehydrated and have been putting paw paw cream on her dry tail which also seems to be working. Hopefully after her next smaller feed she is able to defecate on her own, if not I will have to assist her as we go. It's unfortunate but I guess is one of those things and yes my vet gave me the impression it can be managed in ways however ultimately is irreversible. It's unfortunate this is a fairly common thing in females.

 

[mikey_mike]

You can`t have arthritis in the spine as its not a true synovial joint but rather an articulation between individual spinal vertebrae. QUOTE]

Zygo- apophyseal joints.
Regardless there are lots of inflammatory/ degenerative conditions causing reduced mobility in the spine.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I remember the great GTP breeding pioneer Rico Walder telling us that he feeds his adult female GTPs only one adult mouse per week, with a slight increase in feeds when conditioning females for breeding. I have to say that I've been too slack to do this because of the extra work involved in managing a mouse colony, but I'm sure he knows more about these things than most of us...

Jamie

 

[solar 17]

On the Mice versus Rats saga l have found to be ok is that l prefer to feed rats to my GTP's these days, so to control the size l weigh my rats with the biggest mouse l have produced weighing just over 40 grams so l weigh my rats prior to feeding and limit them to 35-40 grams "MAX" and its amazing short of doing this how easily you can creep up in food size and only fed weekly. solar 17 ~B~

 

[PrecisionPythons]

Hi all, just an update on my female gtp. Haven't fed her since my last thread. She shed twice since that time with very little assistance. She finally defecated tonight on her own which i was very surprised to see after atleast two months. She is no longer hanging her tail like before and is gripping her logs quite well surprisingly. Her tail is not dry and scaley like before and appears normal at this stage.

Very happy with her progress, I put it down to possible over feeding and caused a blockage therefore less blood flow to her tail. I had her on small rats which i think was very reasonable for her but i gave her another rat before she went to the toilet to try assist her to go.

I will be putting her back to weaner rats from now on and only feeding her when she defecates.

Thoughts, opinions?

 

[WomaBoy]

Hey everyone, i know nothing about gtps, so i know this may sound stupid! But can prolapse occur in any snake or just the gtp?

also, i hope all is well with all your gtps everyone!

 

[montysrainbow]

I am pretty sure it can happen to any
My rule with my coastal is she has to poop before i give her another feed....that way i know its all moving through as it should.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Hi all, just an update on my female gtp. Haven't fed her since my last thread. She shed twice since that time with very little assistance. She finally defecated tonight on her own which i was very surprised to see after atleast two months. She is no longer hanging her tail like before and is gripping her logs quite well surprisingly. Her tail is not dry and scaley like before and appears normal at this stage.

Very happy with her progress, I put it down to possible over feeding and caused a blockage therefore less blood flow to her tail. I had her on small rats which i think was very reasonable for her but i gave her another rat before she went to the toilet to try assist her to go.

I will be putting her back to weaner rats from now on and only feeding her when she defecates.

Thoughts, opinions?

You'll find that feeding only after defecation will result in a very undernourished snake after a while. Unless you increase the amount of movement in the animal's life, it will still only defecate every couple of months. From what you have written, you haven't taken on board much of what those with a lot more experience have suggested to you. It is unlikely that "overfeeding" caused a "blockage" which led to "less blood flow to the tail." GTPs are just pythons which live in trees in a tropical environment, they do all the things that other pythons do with the same sort of efficiency, including eating large meals when they can get them, without long term harm. Large meals don't automatically lead to blockages unless there are other factors at play - dehydration AND LACK OF EXERCISE being the most significant. These are the husbandry issues within your control.

It sounds like your (over)management is causing problems - snakes, even GTPs would you believe, actually shed and defecate without human assistance in most cases.

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

Precision Pythons, if you have a chance, read my article in the upcoming issue of Scales & Tails. Tail-hanging, prolapse, etc., are discussed in detail .... in the meanwhile, Jamie is on the money about lack of exercise. Me think.

cheers
Michael

 

[montysrainbow]

[MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] im asking this because i want to learn so please dont drill me lol. Umm do u think im doing wrong by my coastal only feeding after she has pooped? :/ she gets a couple of outside slides each wk and is growing like a weed eats sheds and poops like a dream. I read the word undernourished snake and freaked out! Clearly i dont have oodles of experience but thats partly why i come on here to learn from those that do

 

[PrecisionPythons]

Michael,

Thanks for the advice I also respect yourself as a valued and reputable source of information and I will definitely read the recommended articles.

Darren

- - - Updated - - -

Jamie

i appreciate your knowledge and information. I did not ignore the advice and have made adjustments re lack of exercise and dehydration.

i don't believe I have over managed re shedding and defecating and simply do what is needed. I assist with the defecation as the vet told me this is necessary and she will not go on her own. I was simply surprised when she did as I did not expect It.

It appears as if she had more blood flow after defecating as she is no longer hanging her tail and is gripping logs again after months of tail hanging, I now understand this May not be the case as suggested by yourself.

I am simply after assistance as to where to go from here re feeding. Should I keep her on small rats or reduce her. I need help with this gtp, I have 2 others who have not had any problems for years. I value your assistance as you have helped me many times in the past. I apologise if it appeared as if I have ignored advice, I was relaying my observations without having the full understanding of what is actually happening with this gtp as some of you guys have.

Thank you
darren

 

[CrystalMoon]

Very interesting read..... Thank-you for all the great Q&A

 

[Waterrat]

Daren, most GTP breeders (world-wide) switched from rats to adult mice at the rate of one per week (Rico Walder, et al.). There is nothing wrong with feeding them rats occasionally but adult mice are considered to be the best staple diet. If you're using defrosted rodents, inject little bit of water (warm) into them to keep up the fluid levels. Imo, there is no need to wait for the snake to defecate before the next meal but it is important to exercise the snake between meals. I am also finding useful not to feed them regularly. It takes about 5-6 days to completely digest a meal (depending on size, temps, etc.) so by feeding them regularly very 6-7 days, that means the snakes are in a constant mode of digestion, and as we know, snake that is digesting food is usually not very active. Food for thought.

cheers
Michael