GTP,S Prolapsing & Possible cause

[solar 17]

After a fairly extensive study of a group of adult GTP,s, l feel quite stongly the problem is a lack of fluid in the lower alimentary canal [bowel] also l believe GTP,s have a fairly weak peristalsis particularly when partially dry. I used an endoscope to check the bowel in all the cases [13] to check for colouration of bowel wall immediately after a bowel movement [not easy to organise on someone else,s critter] but in cases where the owner/s were 100% positive no prolapsing what so ever had taken place and they fed defrosted food items in ALL cases the lower tract of bowel was very red and appeared abbrazed although NO prolapsing had taken place, l believe the dryish urates which is the white chalkie part of the stool to be the culprit, this is very basically [the urates] a form of uric acid which is a crystaline product of protein metabolism [basically]......now when the test subjects, that were being fed thawed out food items [rats] had 15mls of very warm water [per kilo of snake] injected into the stomach of the rat then immediately after the next bowel movement [re-examined] the bowel remained a pale mushroom pink and after 2-3 feeds like this the bowel colour remained very stable [pale pink]........now for those feeding fresh killed food items the dose appeared to be 10mls per kilo of GTP........this gives the GTP approx. 20-25% of the bowel movement a brown water in appearance and volume and after speaking to some very long term keepers here and in the USA this is highly desirable, for a yearling green the dose l would suggest is a straight 5mls......now in the first instance some keepers were of the very firm opinion their Greens were "spot on" but after this study [call it what you wish] EVERYBODY agreed their GTP,s were better off and especially when they saw for themselves [through the endoscope] the different colouration in the bowel wall .....cheers solar 17 [Baden]

 

[wranga]

very interesting. thanks for that info Baden

 

[justbrad]

Thanks for the info Baden, im sure alot of people on this site will find it one of the most informative threads on GTP's they'll find. Cheers, Brad.

 

[Kristy_07]

Hi, Baden. You'll have to forgive my lack of knowledge in this area. I think the study you have done and conclusion you have come to is quite incredible. Can I ask, though, whether prolapse in GTPs occurs in the wild, and more importantly, if it is caused by dehydration in the snake (is this correct?)/"lack of fluid in the lower alimentary canal". how do wild animals overcome this? Why would this lack of fluid be more prevalent in captive animals than in the wild? Surely wild snakes can't only prey on other animals that have just had a decent drink in order to overcome this

Thanks, anyway. Great study.

 

[Tsubakai]

Frozen food dehydrates with the longer its in the freezer the more it dries out (check your steak out after it has been in the freezer for a while). Wild snakes don't eat defrosted prey so its not an issue for them.

 

[Kristy_07]

So prolapse would be less likely to occur in GTPs fed fresh-killed?

 

[solar 17]

Wild Diet

Hi, Baden. You'll have to forgive my lack of knowledge in this area. I think the study you have done and conclusion you have come to is quite incredible. Can I ask, though, whether prolapse in GTPs occurs in the wild, and more importantly, if it is caused by dehydration in the snake (is this correct?)/"lack of fluid in the lower alimentary canal". how do wild animals overcome this? Why would this lack of fluid be more prevalent in captive animals than in the wild? Surely wild snakes can't only prey on other animals that have just had a decent drink in order to overcome this

Thanks, anyway. Great study.

I don't profess to have done any studies in the wild...but frogs and other well hydrated food items could be a possibility, maybe "Waterrat" [Michael] has some input here...solar 17 [Baden]

 

[Waterrat]

Kristy, if I can put my two bob worth in - we really don't know what they eat in the wild, what size prey are they game to tackle and how often they eat, nor we have any evidence of prolapsing in the wild GTPs. For example, even serious ecological studies omitted to reveal that juvenile GTPs prey on small frogs - very juicy food item compared to skinks and geckos. Such diet supplement could well be responsible for the right fluid balance.
I also suspect that the way GTPs rest on often very thin branches for prolonged periods of time effects the passage of food through their digestive tracts. Most other species digest (and pass) their food while flat on the ground or wrapped over branch or similar with their bodies in horizontal position.
Baden is certainly onto something important - it just makes sense that rock-hard, large urates would be harder to pass than a normal, soft faeces. Not only it may cause abrasions but the snake would have to push very hard and that's when (I think) rectal prolapse occurs.

 

[Kristy_07]

Yep, it make sense that there are some fairly major health differences between wild and captive populations when their environments are so different. I just wondered if you knew why they occurred

 

[Kristy_07]

I also suspect that the way GTPs rest on often very thin branches for prolonged periods of time effects the passage of food through their digestive tracts. Most other species digest (and pass) their food while flat on the ground or wrapped over branch or similar with their bodies in horizontal position.

This sort of information (including this point, Michael, as well as Baden's study) is absolutely crucial to the hobby, and is the sort of info that the vast majority of people just don't know.

Now, with the substantial price drop in the GTP market, many hobbyists that have a mere $3000 to spare can buy a pair of GTPs, but this is still not the kind of price tag that would make most people research in-depth enough into the subject to find out about this important (and quite common) health issue. There aren't many other people I can imagine conducting multiple snake colonoscopies in order to better their husbandry.

I think it's one of the main consequences of such a market price drop - the cheaper you can get something, potentially (for some, anyway), the less value it carries.

Thanks for the great info, guys.

 

[Waterrat]

Baden (and anybody else), have you ever seen hard urates passed by juvenile GTPs? I haven't. Yet prolapse has been reported mainly in young juveniles.

 

[GreatSnakes]

Interesting work Baden.
Do you know if the irritated bowel symptom "redness" also occurs in other Morelia species?

 

[GreatSnakes]

Baden (and anybody else), have you ever seen hard urates passed by juvenile GTPs? I haven't. Yet prolapse has been reported mainly in young juveniles.

I was just thinking the same thing!

 

[Waterrat]

This would be really interesting project but to draw sensible conclusions, one would need 4 classes of experimental animals (GTPs) fed on:

1/ defrosted rodents (dry food)
2/ defrosted rodents hydrated with water (wet food)
3/ freshly killed rodents
4/ GTPs with prolapse history

Provided the prolapsed animals would show similar symptoms (redness of bowel)) as described by Baden, using endoscopy, this group would be used as the control. A replication of at least 6 animals in each class would be also necessary.

Who has got enough GTPs to run this study? :lol::shock:

 

[wokka]

This would be really interesting project but to draw sensible conclusions, one would need 4 classes of experimental animals (GTPs) fed on:

1/ defrosted rodents (dry food)
2/ defrosted rodents hydrated with water (wet food)
3/ freshly killed rodents
4/ GTPs with prolapse history

Provided the prolapsed animals would show similar symptoms (redness of bowel)) as described by Baden, using endoscopy, this group would be used as the control. A replication of at least 6 animals in each class would be also necessary.

Who has got enough GTPs to run this study? :lol::shock:

I can give you the frozen rodents to thaw for half the experiment but where would you get GTPs with a prolase history?

 

[Waterrat]

I can give you the frozen rodents to thaw for half the experiment but where would you get GTPs with a prolase history?

Woka, don't put me in the spot. I would know exactly where to go but ....... (I don't mean you, in case...)

 

[TrueBlue]

Baden, I think that you are onto something here, ive been thinking the same thing myself lately.
Everyone that i know that has had young greens prolapse has been feeding them thawed frozen food.
I have raised a number of greens and have never had a green prolapse on me, but i have only feed them fresh food. Coincidence or not.??

 

[Jdsixtyone]

My female BHP use to prolapse now i think she is in the freezer..... good info there Baden.

 

[Wild~Touch]

Thanks for the enlightenment Baden, it sure makes sense,

I imagine it could apply to most pythons species as well

When I think about it look how hard it is to scrape the dried urates from the floor of enclosures
I imagine it must be an effort for a python to push the feacal matter from the bowel, ie, the less moisture the harder it is

Cheers
Sandee

 

[solar 17]

Fresh Food ????

Baden, I think that you are onto something here, ive been thinking the same thing myself lately.
Everyone that i know that has had young greens prolapse has been feeding them thawed frozen food.
I have raised a number of greens and have never had a green prolapse on me, but i have only feed them fresh food. Coincidence or not.??

TrueBlue..l don't think its a coincidence myself, as l personally never had any and l mean any young green prolapse but l only EVER feed fresh killed as well, but l did notice when they got to 15-16 months and roughly 275-325 gram mark there was an ever so slight tendency for them to have a bowel movement [poo] that you would give 10/10 for a normal reptile, but for a GTP l believe that at least 20% plus of that poo has to be, what appears to be dirty brown water and [IMO] its this dirty brown water that lubricates the lower bowel and after seeing the before and after results with an endoscope [and the relevant owners] l am 110% convinced of this.......cheers solar 17 [Baden]