How smart are pythons

[Nero Egernia]

A species doesn't need to be intelligent to successfully survive on earth. Look at the humble starfish, for example. They don't have a brain as we recognize it, and here they are with fossil records that date back several hundred million years ago.

 

[Sdaji]

I used to think of carpet pythons as almost exclusively an ambush predator that also occasionally had an opportunistic feed but since I started living amongst them with more opportunity to observe their natural behaviour I have noticed they definitely do deliberately seek out and hunt prey like an elapid.
I watched one from my rear deck navigate almost a straight line from rainforest 50m across a cleared area then up a steep hill directly to a shed where I keep rodents, it then prowled around the shed trying to gain access.
They regularly climb trees to get on top of the snake proof mesh of my cocky aviaries and similarly cruise around looking for an entry point. One even worked out how to crawl down a down pipe from the house guttering and exit above a leaf strainer to get into a netted patio area where I have a bird cage.
Another exhibited more traditional behaviour taking up an ambush position in the roof gutter adjacent a branch of a grevillia tree and was successful in constricting a king parrot too large for it to swallow. OK this was an ambush situation but it required intelligence to identify the only spot on a big roof that it could reach a feeding bird. I posted photos of this previously.

Interesting anecdotes, although I question your interpretation of what you're seeing. Without doubt they do explore, and no doubt if they encounter something worth eating they'll often take the opportunity, but the majority of the time they are spending wandering about is becoming familiar with their environment. If they detect fresh scent in a likely spot it will be filed as a likely ambush spot. If a place is thermally favourable and humid it may be filed as a potential nesting spot. They also move about in search of mates, to defend territory, etc etc. This may be misinterpreted as intelligence but while it does demonstrate some complexity, it is not indicative of intelligence. The same behaviours can be programmed by unsophisticated, unchanging algorithms literally completely lacking any intelligence. remarkable as some of these behaviours may be *for a snake* they are still very basic compared to higher animals.

While studying animal behaviour at university I first saw how basic algorithms could produce surprisingly complex behaviours, without the need for any intelligence at all.
[doublepost=1582181935,1582180569][/doublepost]

A species doesn't need to be intelligent to successfully survive on earth. Look at the humble starfish, for example. They don't have a brain as we recognize it, and here they are with fossil records that date back several hundred million years ago.

Great example. While not as advanced as even a Carpet Python, a creature like a starfish does demonstrate fairly complex behaviour including the ability to change foraging behaviours and activity patterns in response to changing conditions, an ability to navigate, etc etc, all literally without having a brain at all, let alone any form of true intelligence. The fact that these behaviours exist without any intelligence at all is a clear demonstration that people confuse these traits as something requiring or demonstrating intelligence.
[doublepost=1582182598][/doublepost]

Been following this thread and thought I'd provide a couple of links to studies done on translocated snakes that I plucked out of my reference folder just in case you couldn't locate any online.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...kes_Notechis_scutatus_in_a_suburban_landscape

In this one 3 of 8 = 37.5% translocated snakes died


https://www.jstor.org/stable/1565542?seq=1

In this one 6 of 11 = 54.5% translocated snakes died


https://www.publish.csiro.au/wr/wr17166

In this one all 4 translocated snakes died = 100%


This one is interesting as all 9 introduced Womas died within a 4 month period as what is believed to have been a result of predation by Mulga Snakes.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...f_the_woma_python_in_northern_South_Australia

As far as "snake intelligence goes" I have to agree with Sdaji's posts in that the ability for snakes to navigate does not imply intelligence. In fact a study with translocated Burmese Pythons in Florida undertaken by researchers from the Biological Department of Davidson College in 2014 indicated they had the ability to navigate from their release site to within 5 klms of their original capture site (distances traveled between 21 & 36 klms). So obviously memory played no part in navigation.

Abstract taken from the research paper..."Navigational capacity allows an animal to determine when and where to move. Thus, the purpose of this study was to determine whether Burmese pythons have the navigational capacity to find their way home after being translocated miles away to an unfamiliar location. The ability to home after translocation involves both a map sense and a compass sense. A map sense allows for determination of position in relation to a goal, whereas a compass sense requires access to a reliable area to maintain orientation towards the goal. While many previously studied snakes have shown a lack of ability to home, the Burmese python is the first snake to demonstrate this skill".

What was revealed was that, as these Burmese Pythons determined and maintained the bearings toward their capture site they have navigational compass senses. The researchers go on to say, " Potential environmental cues underlying the map sense in pythons include olfactory and magnetic cues, while the compass sense may involve magnetic, celestial, olfactory, or polarized light cues. However, further research must be done to determine the underlying sensory systems involved".

Thanks for putting up links to these studies (there are of course many more). Two if these show greater than 50% mortality, the other... well, I could say a little about the study... I was based at the same research facility at the time it was being carried out. It was carried out under Dr. Brian Malone, who I was unfortunate enough to have as one of my lecturers years earlier. He literally was stoned for most of his lectures, generally was literally incapable of holding his head upright for most of his lectures, sometimes would literally spend more than half the time in his own lectures staring blankly into space, completely unresponsive. The year before this study was carried out I taught him how to use the dichotomous key in Cogger (when he was a senior lecturer, I was an undergraduate, and I was sick of him continuously misindentifying species). In the same year I taught him how to sex Bearded Dragons after he showed an adult 'female' to a group of students with obvious hemipene bulges and I figured I needed to speak up (this was two years after I'd read one of his papers which involved sexing agamids and I'd gone up to him personally because his paper didn't make sense and contradicted what other researchers had found, and he basically said I was an idiot because I was just a first year student).

Even so, one more death in that study would have brought it to 50% and it's not too far out of line with most studies showing greater than 50%.

 

[Yellowtail]

OK now after only 3 days tonight it's back!
I relocated it 800m in the opposite direction to the previous 4 times, the other side of a deep valley and several raging torrent creeks and it using it's instinctive abilities has navigated back climbed over the roller door and found the same gap in the partition wall as before.
I walked down in the valley yesterday and I could not cross the creeks.
How about some advice please from all you experts! What do I do with it?
Is there a sport racing homing pythons?

 

[dragonlover1]

you could send it to me, I don't think it could find it's way back from Sydney

 

[nuttylizardguy]

Dr. Brian Malone, who I was unfortunate enough to have as one of my lecturers years earlier. He literally was stoned for most of his lectures, generally was literally incapable of holding his head upright for most of his lectures, sometimes would literally spend more than half the time in his own lectures staring blankly into space, completely unresponsive. The year before this study was carried out I taught him how to use the dichotomous key in Cogger (when he was a senior lecturer, I was an undergraduate, and I was sick of him continuously misindentifying species). In the same year I taught him how to sex Bearded Dragons after he showed an adult 'female' to a group of students with obvious hemipene bulges and I figured I needed to speak up (this was two years after I'd read one of his papers which involved sexing agamids and I'd gone up to him personally because his paper didn't make sense and contradicted what other researchers had found, and he basically said I was an idiot because I was just a first year student).

Even so, one more death in that study would have brought it to 50% and it's not too far out of line with most studies showing greater than 50%.

mmm .... defamation of the man's character . I can't see any university allowing that ( an incompetent lecturer or researcher wont last long ).

If he sees that I imagine he will go after the owners of this board legally even if he can't find you.

 

[Sdaji]

mmm .... defamation of the man's character . I can't see any university allowing that ( an incompetent lecturer or researcher wont last long ).

If he sees that I imagine he will go after the owners of this board legally even if he can't find you.

I'm sure he no longer works there, but nothing I've said is untrue, and the fact that he was smoking marijuana on campus every day was no secret. His office absolutely reeked of it until the faculty said he couldn't smoke in there and he then smoked at the nature reserve, everyone was well aware of it. He routinely stood in front of thousands of students clearly stoned out of his mind for several years, it wasn't a secret, everyone openly spoke about and was aware of it from students to senior faculty staff, countless people routinely saw him smoking weed on campus. It was quite a surprise that he lasted as long as he did.

 

[Richard Biffin]

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...htWMRgmyYRciZPUyuyhKFE2TtJlhMVEHumGqgw_Un9pfA

 

[Sdaji]

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396449/study-finds-fish-have-better-memories-than-humans?fbclid=IwAR3_d1jYvpS66ab6IQUHEj49S25FXKtc2JP9GKtyqpK2ncnJUHlUzdoL71w&h=AT3pDF9EQ_ikPXLXVJ-NJ4JBEwfED6ay3alcvqvVOFr_vJELjIl-8Bgl_i-xp4qGN9Y04fYRPOH9BfqDioGUteDUYQpN9INveep58gv8ufyBXJ8LlSrNkl2KwfbQGTQupSSyo3711htWMRgmyYRciZPUyuyhKFE2TtJlhMVEHumGqgw_Un9pfA

Memory is not the same as intelligence. Fish can not comprehend let alone remember things humans can. If the ability to remember an extremely simple thing for as long as possible is your measure of intelligence, a carefully-stored post-it note is more intelligent than any living thing which has ever existed.

 

[Nero Egernia]

OK now after only 3 days tonight it's back!
I relocated it 800m in the opposite direction to the previous 4 times, the other side of a deep valley and several raging torrent creeks and it using it's instinctive abilities has navigated back climbed over the roller door and found the same gap in the partition wall as before.
I walked down in the valley yesterday and I could not cross the creeks.
How about some advice please from all you experts! What do I do with it?
Is there a sport racing homing pythons?

Is there a particular reason why you keep relocating it? If all your birds and rodents are in secure snake proof cages then what's the harm in allowing the python to remain where it is? I occasionally get the resident dugite and tiger snake sniffing around my rodent colony, and a hawk trying its luck at the quail aviary, but after a few days they all give up and turn their attentions elsewhere. A few months later, however, they return, and the whole process happens all over again. It doesn't worry me, though. My cages are secure and the predators are just effectively wasting their time. Still, it's nice seeing them visiting my residence.

I think the take home message here is that animals often surprise us - whether it's with their intelligence, problem solving skills, or their incredibly refined instincts. It's an interesting thread and I enjoyed reading most of it. I don't want to be that kind of person, but the threads posted in the last few months have kind of been a little boring in my opinion.

 

[Yellowtail]

I have a big eastern brown resident under a shipping container site office I keep rodents in and I am happy for it to stay there and there are a huge number of other snakes including carpets on my property that are not a worry.
The problem with this carpet is it gets into a shed where I have a lot of rodent growing cages and climbs down onto the cages where it tries hard to get at the rats and/or mice and in the process can dislodge lids and even push cages off the shelves. This has happened when another carpet gained entry and released a lot of rats into a big shed full of stuff, it was a major drama catching them all. I have resorted to tying down the cages with straps.
Wild snakes are also a possible source of parasites and diseases.
It's very difficult to secure a roller door when pythons can come down from the roof and over the roll and this one has worked out how to get through the internal wall via a gap that is very hard to secure.
My parrot aviaries are secure but the birds make very loud distress calls when a snake is around and this can be a pain at 3am but I just move those from the immediate vicinity and now the birds think it's a game and have trained me to remove snakes. They don't get alarmed with wallabies or koalas but freak out over cane toads in the vicinity, even more than snakes or lace monitors.

 

[CF Constrictor]

Mine are definitely smarter than me , im the one who goes out to work for a living , they just lie around all day looking good :-b

 

[Yellowtail]

It's back!
3 weeks ago as an experiment I fed it a big rat then relocated it approx 2k away as the crow flies down in a valley approx 300m altitude lower than my property but accessible only by a 10k drive around a big loop so this should have confused it's navigation if it uses location memory or dead reckoning.
It must have some magnetic location skill unless it has a built in GPS chip.
I found it in exactly the same spot in my shed last night.

 

[Sdaji]

Haha, that's pretty cool. It's not a 'skill' but it's definitely a very cool ability. You'll definitely find it's not at all using any for of navigation involving memory of the route you took from home to away in order to get back along the reverse of the same route. It would be very interesting to know exactly how this location/direction recognition works. Magnetic sensory ability wouldn't help since even with this ability the snake is being driven in a car at an indicenrable speed and changing direction, rather than the snake navigating its own way there and back. If you wanted to test this you could next time put a magnet next to it while you drove (the car would have its own magnetic fields which would have interfered with this sense anyway). I'd be so impressed with this critter's ability and urge to be with me that I'd just let it stay. It certainly seems to have earned its place there. Then again I'd sort of be wanting to keep putting it to the test!

If you fitted a GPS tracker to this snake and released it in multiple locations you'd quickly get an idea of how it is navigating (it will probably be traveling in a straight line until it finds a familiar navigation aid such as a ridge, road, river, etc then moving along to a familiar location then going from there). It would also be very interesting to see what type of daytime shelter it finds while travelling through unfamiliar areas.

 

[Yellowtail]

I'm happy for it to stay around except I have had problems with them pushing rodent cages off shelves and it's not easy catching all the rats/mice in a big shed full of stuff. My property is crawling with snakes but this little one keeps invading my shed.
I will feed it again and have another go at snake proofing the shed before I decide what to do.
How about we start a competition with homing python races like they do with pigeons?
Racing pigeons are transported hundreds of kilometres and they seem to be able to quickly establish their location and know which way to fly back. Could a python have the same ability?

 

[Herpetology]

I'm happy for it to stay around except I have had problems with them pushing rodent cages off shelves and it's not easy catching all the rats/mice in a big shed full of stuff. My property is crawling with snakes but this little one keeps invading my shed.
I will feed it again and have another go at snake proofing the shed before I decide what to do.
How about we start a competition with homing python races like they do with pigeons?
Racing pigeons are transported hundreds of kilometres and they seem to be able to quickly establish their location and know which way to fly back. Could a python have the same ability?

Get a snake repeller... duh

On a serious note, couldn’t you make some make shift “barriers” using dowel across the front of the tubs to prevent them sliding out?

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I did this years ago with a green tree snake. Caught in on top of the front sliding door to the house where my resident Perron's tree frogs lived... I relocated it approximately 1.5 km away... Nothing at all fancy, straight road drive to the border of our property. The next day it was back on top of the front door again looking for frogs.

 

[Yellowtail]

Get a snake repeller... duh

On a serious note, couldn’t you make some make shift “barriers” using dowel across the front of the tubs to prevent them sliding out?

I have secured the lab cages but the shed also contains 36 large growing cages (72 litre) that overhang the shelves by a fair bit and I have used straps across the front of some but they can even tip over if a reasonable size python gets on the overhang.

Last time 50 rats escaped when a python tipped over one of the top tubs which took out others on the way down. The rats can't get out of the shed but there is a lot of stuff in there making them hard to catch plus 5 freezers where rats can chew the wiring.
This photo was before I had so many tubs and strapped them down.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

That's a proper setup right there.

 

[Yellowtail]

Most of my breeders are in 120 lab cages in a converted shipping container "Donga" but it is 100% snake proof