ID

[Bluetongue1]

haha how could anyone think thats a bandy bandy?? *facepalm*...

I had intended to let this go. However your “typical ID thread” scenario bore so little resemblance to the reality of this thread, it made me wonder why you were posting. Hence, I am compelled to ask, why you feel the need to make statements like the above? If you have the knowledge and you want people to realise that, why not put it to good use instead of just slagging somebody off. For example, it would have been the perfect opportunity to explain what a loreal scale is and its significance and use in ID. That way people can start making correct IDs when they can see the relevant scales on a of a roughie or keelback photo. Or they can pick the difference between a whip snake shed from that of a green tree. Or mum knows whether to keep the dog inside and warn the kids when she finds a fresh snake shed in the garden. There is any number of situations where it might come in handy. I can assure you that it would be appreciated by a much wider audience than just your mates.

Maybe I should have made it clear I wasn't suggesting that’s what this is, but that to those who are not familiar with snakes, they may be mistaken.

I was aware of that. I was only trying to support what you said by pointing out how to readily distinguish them, as I figure that my help reduce likelihood of those not so familiar clobbering a Stephen’s Banded thinking it is an exotic.

...I don't think most exotics could cope with our ecosystem, too many variables that lead to death for them, although you never know....

Didn’t they say that about the Cane Toad before they released them for the sixth time? I recommend you do a little research on Californian King Snakes before making comments such as that. They are capable of occupying habitats from marshes to deserts, from grasslands through to forest, and it generalist feeder, taking anything from invertebrates to frogs, lizards, snakes and birds to small mammals. Exotics often lack specific predators present in their place of origin and captives mostly lacking the pathogens or their vectors and the parasites which all help to keep their populations in check on their home turf

When you have a highly adaptable, generalist species kept in high numbers in a specific region and regularly escaping or being released, you are well and truly into the high risk category for establishment and spread of that exotic.

Rattler, you really should let the relevant authorities know about it. A bit of a pain but important.

Blue

 

[Pufferfish]

.

 

[43nickw]

i saw one of theese last year when buying a bhp. the guy had two of them and a side winder, i really think it is a kingsnake. being a farmer have seen tones of bandy bandy snakes is not one of them.

 

[snakeynewbie]

As a teeny image on an iphone very easy to mistake for a bandy bandy when all you can see is a snake with black and white stripes. Once able to view as a larger image it's very clear it has a broader head(although not as broad as a stephens) and the characteristic white dot and white under the chin.

 

[waruikazi]

I had intended to let this go. However your “typical ID thread” scenario bore so little resemblance to the reality of this thread, it made me wonder why you were posting. Hence, I am compelled to ask, why you feel the need to make statements like the above? If you have the knowledge and you want people to realise that, why not put it to good use instead of just slagging somebody off. For example, it would have been the perfect opportunity to explain what a loreal scale is and its significance and use in ID. That way people can start making correct IDs when they can see the relevant scales on a of a roughie or keelback photo. Or they can pick the difference between a whip snake shed from that of a green tree. Or mum knows whether to keep the dog inside and warn the kids when she finds a fresh snake shed in the garden. There is any number of situations where it might come in handy. I can assure you that it would be appreciated by a much wider audience than just your mates.

Blue

Blue the point of that post and the others similar are to discourage those who don't have a clue posting and wild guesses. Neither of which, imo, are ok in ID threads.

The idea of giving people who have no clue information on how to key a snake out it just about pointless. Especially in the cases of differentiating an elapid from a colubrid, if you need to look for the loreal scale to tell the difference then you shouldn't be doing an ID.

 

[dylan-rocks]

Open the dead snakes mouth(with care) and check if it has fangs or teeth...!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
and on a funny note:
its obviously a keelback

 

[Fuscus]

its obviously a keelback

Well ............ they do have stripes

 

[Mister_Snakes]

The idea of giving people who have no clue information on how to key a snake out it just about pointless. Especially in the cases of differentiating an elapid from a colubrid, if you need to look for the loreal scale to tell the difference then you shouldn't be doing an ID.

Amen

The odds of someone getting an incorrect ID from this site, then getting bitten is probably low, but imagine the potential outcry if it did happen!

 

[Bluetongue1]

Since when does maintaining ignorance become a better option than education?

Do you really thing it is only half-witted incompetents that read these threads and therefore the small additional effort in informing them is not worth it?

The individual who posted Bandy Bandy posted it as a question. I would not categorise that as a “wild guess”. Now I am not going to presume that this particular person “hasn’t got a clue”, even though you may.

I did not mention loreal scale – I simply used it as the most appropriate example to illustrate the point I was making.

Seeing as how you mention it, this begs the question why loreal was mentioned at all (if it is not to be explained). It appears to be an example of using technical language to keep others in the dark. Now why might one do that?

When you are talking about ID threads and danger, you efforts in posting would have been better directed at correcting the individual suggesting you open the mouth and check out the teeth. Now that is potentially dangerous and totally unnecessary. Dangerously venomous snakes can deliver a fatal dose even after death if a fang enters the skin and the area around the venom gland is being held and pressure – as might happen if you holding the snake up by its head to examine the teeth and it slips.

Bandy Bandys and Californian King Snakes are very similar in appearance and a snake in the wild may not be easy for an “expert” to distinguish straight off. Out in the open most of the key attributes are readily viewed and they behave very differently. So if you know what to look for they are readily distinguished. A dead snake (not too mangled), or photos of same, provide similar readily observable distinguishing features.

I cannot fathom the advantage to keeping people in the dark. Bandy Bandys are the only banded black and white (or dark reddish brown and white) Australian snake and the bands are go all the way around i.e. right across the ventrals. You do not have to be Einstein to take that on board. So one glimpse at the underbelly of the photo in the opening post immediately says this is an exotic snake. Instead of people saying they look nothing alike, which is incorrect and as I mentioned in another recent thread, can lead to field errors and potential catastrophe, explain the differences. Is that so hard?

If you wish to achieve responsible posting in ID threads, then encourage those who are not 100% certain to do as was done in this thread, place question marks after your suggestion. This should also be applied to non-snake threads where the stakes are not as high.

I am reminded of the slogan on the sex education resource kit used in WA state high schools: “If you think education is dangerous, try ignorance.”

Blue

Open the dead snakes mouth(with care) and check if it has fangs or teeth...!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
and on a funny note:
its obviously a keelback

Please note: This is DANGEROUS and UNNECESSARY.

 

[snakeynewbie]

It was infact me that posted bandy bandy and also a clarifier saying the head didn't look right, if you infact scroll down further you'll see I clarified quite a few posts as to why it was infact a king. If you look down further still I did say that when I first looked at the pic I was on an iPhone and couldn't see the pic properly and quite frankly i don't think it's that big a stretch to suggest that a strongly black and white banded snake in the Sydney area may be a bandy bandy, the fact that i was unsure due to the size of the pic I was looking at at the time meant I added a question mark to indicate I wasn't sure from what i could see.

 

[waruikazi]

Since when does maintaining ignorance become a better option than education?

Do you really thing it is only half-witted incompetents that read these threads and therefore the small additional effort in informing them is not worth it? I think the small additional information will be lost on an individual who can't look at a snake and tell instantly what family it is from.

The individual who posted Bandy Bandy posted it as a question. I would not categorise that as a “wild guess”. Now I am not going to presume that this particular person “hasn’t got a clue”, even though you may. I never said it was a wild guess, i said those posts are to discourage guessing. Which is something that i'm pretty sure you have agreed with me on in the past.

I did not mention loreal scale – I simply used it as the most appropriate example to illustrate the point I was making. You said it, ergo you mentioned it.

Seeing as how you mention it, this begs the question why loreal was mentioned at all (if it is not to be explained). It appears to be an example of using technical language to keep others in the dark. Now why might one do that? Again, you brought it up not me. But while we are on the topic why didn't you? And how would you describe the loreal scale in less technical terms?

When you are talking about ID threads and danger, you efforts in posting would have been better directed at correcting the individual suggesting you open the mouth and check out the teeth. Now that is potentially dangerous and totally unnecessary. Dangerously venomous snakes can deliver a fatal dose even after death if a fang enters the skin and the area around the venom gland is being held and pressure – as might happen if you holding the snake up by its head to examine the teeth and it slips. I don't know that you noticed or not Blue, but i made my contributions to this thread before that comment went up.

Bandy Bandys and Californian King Snakes are very similar in appearance and a snake in the wild may not be easy for an “expert” to distinguish straight off. Out in the open most of the key attributes are readily viewed and they behave very differently. So if you know what to look for they are readily distinguished. A dead snake (not too mangled), or photos of same, provide similar readily observable distinguishing features. IMO only 'experts' (people with the relevant training and or experience) should be commenting in identification threads.

I cannot fathom the advantage to keeping people in the dark. Bandy Bandys are the only banded black and white (or dark reddish brown and white) Australian snake and the bands are go all the way around i.e. right across the ventrals. No blue they are not. I can post photos if you wish of other Australian snakes that are banded black and white. There are several that have the potential to knock you on your **** permanently. You do not have to be Einstein to take that on board. Apparently not! So one glimpse at the underbelly of the photo in the opening post immediately says this is an exotic snake. Instead of people saying they look nothing alike, which is incorrect and as I mentioned in another recent thread, can lead to field errors and potential catastrophe, explain the differences. Is that so hard?

If you wish to achieve responsible posting in ID threads, then encourage those who are not 100% certain to do as was done in this thread, place question marks after your suggestion. This should also be applied to non-snake threads where the stakes are not as high. No, i encourage them not to post unless they are 100% confident that what they say is accurate. I couldn't say what species this snake was, all i could say is that is was definately not a native. So that is all i said.

I am reminded of the slogan on the sex education resource kit used in WA state high schools: “If you think education is dangerous, try ignorance.” Think ignorance is bad? Try misinformation!

Blue

Please note: This is DANGEROUS and UNNECESSARY.

When the stakes can be potentially very high. People who are not 100% confident in there claims should say nothing at all. Sit back, read and learn.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Waruikazi,

I think the small additional information will be lost on an individual who can't look at a snake and tell instantly what family it is from. I think the small additional information will be lost on an individual who can't look at a snake and tell instantly what family it is from.
You have totally ignored the point. So what if it is lost on “an individual”? By providing diagnostic information those who are here to learn can do so. It appears that what you are saying is, for the sake of a few who probably should not be let loose anywhere near a snake, you would deprive all capable others who are interested in learning, of the opportunity to do.

I did not mention loreal scale – I simply used it as the most appropriate example to illustrate the point I was making. You said it, ergo you mentioned it.... Again, you brought it up not me. But while we are on the topic why didn't you? And how would you describe the loreal scale in less technical terms?
My apoligies – what I should have said was that I was not the person to originate the issue of the loreal scale – which is a separate scale located between the one in contact with the nostril and the scale in front of and contacting the eye. Present in nearly all Australian Colubrids and absent in Elapids.

I don't know that you noticed or not Blue, but i made my contributions to this thread before that comment went up.
I do apologise. It was presumptuous of me to simply assume you has seen the post but not chosen to address it. Not only was I in error but I was slighting you personally (due to frustration but no excuse) and I genuinely apologise for having done so.

IMO only 'experts' (people with the relevant training and or experience) should be commenting in identification threads.
I shy away from the term “expert” and prefer the term competent. You will get no argument from me that those that are competent to make an ID should be the only ones to offer a genuine attempt. At the same time, I believe there is a place for people interested in learning to ID to “have a go”, so long as they make it eminently clear that this is the case. Where snakes are involved and there is any possibility of harm befalling the OP, there is absolutely no margin for error. I do accept that there is an argument for excluding learners from such IDs. However, I do believe that can this be overcome by some simple rules establishing clear expectations of posters.

No blue they are not. I can post photos if you wish of other Australian snakes that are banded black and white. There are several that have the potential to knock you on your **** permanently.
The tone of your response here concerns me. That aside, I would prefer you actually post the photos to which you refer and let others be the judge. Do not be concerned about me. Any embarrassment will be short lived and well worth the learning experience.

Think ignorance is bad? Try misinformation!
If you have ‘experts’ (your term) explaining their diagnostic methods, which is what I suggested, where does “misinformation” come from?

Aside from the above, I just want to reiterate that it is not appropriate to laugh at or belittle someone, simply because you know more than they do.

Blue

EDIT: Please diregard this post, as I was in error, and refer to my following post for a full explanation...

Last edited by Pufferfish; Today at 11:58 AM. Reason: Bluetongue can't read so why bother.

Pufferfish, Comments such as this, in the context of what has transpired, are commonly referred to as “clutching at straws”. Should you not understand the relevance of this particular saying to the situation at hand, I am more than happy to explain. Please, just let me know.

Blue

 

[chilli-mudcrab]

Haven't you herpin dudes seen Up in smoke

Mellow

Mellow

 

[Bluetongue1]

Good movie. I must admit that I gave up smoking when I gave up smoking. So the only roaches around the house these days are the ones with six legs.

Last edited by Pufferfish; 25-Nov-11 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Bluetongue can't read so why bother.

Pufferfish, Comments such as this, in the context of what has transpired, are commonly referred to as “clutching at straws”. Should you not understand the relevance of this particular saying to the situation at hand, I am more than happy to explain. Please, just let me know.

Blue

My apologies Pufferfish. Upon re-reading the thread I believe I misinterpreted the intent of your reference to my “inability to read.” So please disregard my previous post. The only reason I shall not delete it is I have been chided for doing so in the recent past.

I assume your comment was in respect to my having apparently ignore your final qualifying phrase “although you never know”. What I should have done was to firstly point out that the comments you made do not apply in this instance and that can be verified with a little research. The other point I was going to make, but my post was already too long, was that the ability of an exotic to establish is not rare or unusual or even onlikely. You have only to look at the number of ferals in this country and we have one of the tightest quarantines in the world. When you start looking world-wide it is a bit scary how many exotics have established outside of their countries of origin. You may have heard of the term parallel evolution. This is where the same types of organisms from different places but occupying similar ecological niches, have remarkably similar structural and functional features. The point to take on board here is that you do get similar ecological conditions in different parts of the world and organisms adapted to these are predisposed to survive in those conditions when encountered elsewhere.

California, in particular, has some strong climatic similarities to significant parts of Australia. The intensity of the bushfires they have experienced in recent decades is primarily due to the presence of Australian eucalypts, having initially been planted and now having invaded their native forests. The climate suits them perfectly and without the natural predators and pests to keep them in check...

Blue

PS There is a difference between exotics that are merely able to establish and those that are invasive.

 

[waruikazi]

Waruikazi,

You have totally ignored the point. So what if it is lost on “an individual”? By providing diagnostic information those who are here to learn can do so. It appears that what you are saying is, for the sake of a few who probably should not be let loose anywhere near a snake, you would deprive all capable others who are interested in learning, of the opportunity to do. If you choose to do that hen fine, more power to you. I choose not to until that information is requested of me for two reasons. First being that alot of people don't understand it, secondly is that to key a snake out you need to get pretty dang close to it. Much closer than i think it safe. And just an FYI, it has only been in the last 2 years that i have learnt what all these diagnostic characteristics are and beleive it or not my ID skills are no better for knowing them. Out of the 99 described species of elapid i could identify about 90 just from a picture, the rest with an exception of maybe two or three i could do with the aid of a locality. You don't need these diagnostic tools to id the majority of aussie snakes accurately.

My apoligies – what I should have said was that I was not the person to originate the issue of the loreal scale – which is a separate scale located between the one in contact with the nostril and the scale in front of and contacting the eye. Present in nearly all Australian Colubrids and absent in Elapids. Then i apologise for the mix up.

I do apologise. It was presumptuous of me to simply assume you has seen the post but not chosen to address it. Not only was I in error but I was slighting you personally (due to frustration but no excuse) and I genuinely apologise for having done so. Some posts can be frustrating.

I shy away from the term “expert” and prefer the term competent. You will get no argument from me that those that are competent to make an ID should be the only ones to offer a genuine attempt. At the same time, I believe there is a place for people interested in learning to ID to “have a go”, so long as they make it eminently clear that this is the case. Where snakes are involved and there is any possibility of harm befalling the OP, there is absolutely no margin for error. I do accept that there is an argument for excluding learners from such IDs. However, I do believe that can this be overcome by some simple rules establishing clear expectations of posters. I cannot disagree with you more here, if you don't know what the snake is then you need to button it and listen to what others are saying. Wait for the correct ID then ask your questions. There is nothing wrong with that. How would you feel if a poster needed a quick ID and gets a noob guess or skips over the qualifying 'But i'm a noob and i don't really know' statement and they cop a dangerous bite? I know i would feel pretty ordinary and pretty angry at the person taking the guess. I don't know how many times i've seen the question 'How do you tell a keelback and roughie apart?' and i am always happy to help out with easy identifiers.

The tone of your response here concerns me. That aside, I would prefer you actually post the photos to which you refer and let others be the judge. Do not be concerned about me. Any embarrassment will be short lived and well worth the learning experience. Oh save me from the embarrasment! Mangrove snakes, carpet pythons, some death adders, shovel nosed snakes, other Hop species, sea kraits (which have been recorded in Australian waters) and a myriad of Hydrophids (sea snakes) can very accurately be described as snakes that are black with white banding. These aren't the best pictures but i'm only going to post my own photos.

Think ignorance is bad? Try misinformation!
If you have ‘experts’ (your term) explaining their diagnostic methods, which is what I suggested, where does “misinformation” come from?It comes when the people who have no idea get involved with the conversation! Have you read anything i have posted? (That was a frustrated post)Aside from the above, I just want to reiterate that it is not appropriate to laugh at or belittle someone, simply because you know more than they do. I agree. I have not belittled anyone in this thread. I even refrained from entering into this part of the conversation until i saw your post encouraging people who don't know to have a guess.

There is not alot that i disagree with you about Blue, you have about 20 years experience on me and know a whole lot more stuff than i do. But if i think you are wrong or inaccurate in what you or anyone else is saying, particularly when someones safety could be put at risk, i will put my thoughts forward any day of the week.

 

[dtulip10]

I am just gunna come back into this thread and say Where is my prize,
i got the ID first.

 

[waruikazi]

I am just gunna come back into this thread and say Where is my prize,
i got the ID first.

:lol:

 

[Bluetongue1]

Waruikazi,

You have used the term “misinformation’ to refer to “misidentification” – neither relevant or appropriiate under the circumstances. I was talking about “experts” having made a correct identification, helping those wishing to learn by informing others how they went about it i.e. providing information to enable correct identification. OK, that style of learning doesn’t suit you but there are others who have specifically requested it. Yet you still object, seeming based on some belief that anyone trying to learn how to ID or to get better at it, is going to start posting wild guesses in critical ID threads. Iguess we had best differ on that point because I have more faith in human nature than that.

I even refrained from entering into this part of the conversation until i saw your post encouraging people who don't know to have a guess. I would appreciate you showing me exactly where I did that. I made the statement: “If you wish to achieve responsible posting in ID threads, then encourage those who are not 100% certain to do as was done in this thread, place question marks after your suggestion.” This statement and your paraphrase are NOT equivalent. This is never acceptable!

This is the actual statement I made, which (for reasons unknown) you are trying to discredit:
“Bandy Bandys are the only banded black and white (or dark reddish brown and white) Australian snake and the bands are go all the way around i.e. right across the ventrals”.
The Leucobalia fordonia has a black reticulum, not banding and it extends only partially onto the ventrals completely around. I fail to see any white bands on the Brachyurophis roperi and again, nothing on the ventrals. The same is true of all the other banded members of the Shovel-nosed snakes. Hopolocephalus stephensii I have already explain as not being white bands and the dark bands do not extend onto the ventrals. I have never seen or heard of a Carpet or Death Adder fitting that description, not even in captivity and their ventrals are either uniformly light in colour or with a dark reticulum in places, not bands and not continuous with dorsal colours. Laticaudia colubrina are a light to dark bluish grey above and yellowish below – not white. The Kraits are as close as it gets, for from my limited knowledge the banded Hydrohids that occasionally get washed up on our shores are invariably an olive or mid-brown colour. Given the context of the original comment I hardly think it appropriate to be including pelagic visitors.

What a complete waste of time!

 

[serpenttongue]

There are hundreds of them being bred around Sydney, and thousands of Corn snakes, everything is here and being bred in large numbers... exotic "rescues" if you want to call them that are very common and have been for a few years now
...

Either I'm WAY out of the loop, or Wollongong really is the S-hole that Sydney-siders say it is ( ). I am yet to ever encounter an exotic down here

 

[Wookie]

Wow. Just read this thread. Cannot be unseen.