Is it better to leave snakes where they are than to relocate them?

[Yellowtail]

We stopped people spearing Groper, (they used to say groper swallowed divers ) killing White Pointer sharks and shooting crocodiles, why are snakes different and it is against the law, they should be prosecuted, fine a few $10,000 and they may think differently.

 

[pinefamily]

While I agree with you in principle, Yellowtail, it's going to be hard to fine someone who has a split second to decide on how to protect their livelihood, whether it be stock or anything else.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I guess sharks, grouper and crocs are a little different?? When I enter the sea, I accept that I'm no longer on top of the food chain and if I was attacked by a shark, that's nature... same with crocs... spearing grouper is/was a sport, like big game hunting... just senseless killing for bragging rights.. A bloke I used to work with paid $10,000 to travel abroad and shoot a bear. What for?? A trophy??

Land owners simply see themselves as protecting their livelihood, they've got big big $$$ invested in cattle, animals, horses and have you seen what some working kelpies go for?? Wow!!! I couldn't believe it... I somehow don't think we'll ever see the day a farmer is prosecuted for shooting a snake...

 

[GBWhite]

The blokes I'm talking about will shoot them, both brown and black whilst on the tractor down in the paddocks even, when I asked why, the reply was "using a bullet is cheaper than losing a $10,000 steer to a snake bite, a good kelpie or a stock horse."

See that's exactly what I meant by ignorance. It is very, very rare that cattle or horses die as a result of a snake bite. Due to the size of our vens fangs they would never find evidence of a snake bite on the animal and never have an autopsy undertaken due to the expense, they just assume that the beast or horse died as a result of a snake bite without any conclusive proof what so ever when in fact there is a bag full of more logical and acceptable reasons that may have led to the death. Even something as simple as the beast or horse accidently consuming a number of horseshoe nails that are used to secure barbed wire to a fence or even a piece of barded wire itself. Stock horses are actually used for the production of snake venom. Dogs are different but it's their own fault, they are the aggressor every time. Like I said earlier it's not that hard to change their view with a little education.

I think that you'll find that it's not illegal to kill a snake if it is considered by the person to be a threat to them, or others in the immediate area or livestock or pets.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Yep I agree but your logic will fall on deaf ears a lot of the time. I've shown some of those blokes photos of myself with snakes, my daughters holding pythons and they call me crazy. Lol you can't win them all, all the time. Some people simply have their ways and nothing will change it.

Out of curiosity, are you saying that if a beast or horse trod on a black or brown snake whilst grazing and was bitten as a result, that the snake's fangs wouldn't penetrate or that it would and cause death but you'd just never know conclusively that's what actually happened??

 

[Yellowtail]

I think that you'll find that it's not illegal to kill a snake if it is considered by the person to be a threat to them, or others in the immediate area or livestock or pets.

The problem there is that ignorant people think that a snake in the vicinity is a threat, as you know most snakebites occur when the victim is trying to kill or catch the snake.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

The problem there is that ignorant people think that a snake in the vicinity is a threat, as you know most snakebites occur when the victim is trying to kill or catch the snake.

That's true too BUT unfortunately ignorant people have the rights to act within their own means too... Johnny Smith, 4th generation farmer who never finished school who only knows farm life and has grown up taught by his forefathers that the only good snake is a dead snake will act accordingly... we can't judge others by our own standards I guess.

 

[GBWhite]

Yeah your right about people. However it's no good just showing them pictures. You have to have a bit of a background in livestock (which I'm lucky enough to have) as well as a pretty good knowledge of snakes and how they interact with livestock and be able to explain benefits they would gain from not killing snakes to have any hope of convincing them. To answer your question...A snake's fang doesn't need to penetrate to envenomate so a bite (or scratch) is very, very hard if not impossible to detect so yes a "bite" can occur but you'd never know conclusively that's what happened.

 

[Imported_tuatara]

simple: use common sense and be cautious when hiking or checking paddocks and such, if you get bitten after walking where there's known to be vens then it's your fault, and people should just supervise their stubborn animals in those hot days or check the area before letting them out,or keep them in a run, it's impossible to ensure that everyone isn't going to be stubborn and kill an animal because of myths and such that it'll kill them on sight, all you really can do is try. Or you know, give them some medical bills to pay.

 

[GBWhite]

The problem there is that ignorant people think that a snake in the vicinity is a threat, as you know most snakebites occur when the victim is trying to kill or catch the snake.

Exactly...that is the problem.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I've got a bit of background with livestock. Been employed for the last 15 years as a slaughterman, Hence all my dealings with the local cockies and knowledge of their snake encounters.

Thanks for the info, so yeah I guess they draw a pretty direct line then... dead beast, snake seen in the area.. no autopsy, no hard evidence but in the Bush, seeing is believing...to many.

 

[GBWhite]

Thanks for the info, so yeah I guess they draw a pretty direct line then... dead beast, snake seen in the area.. no autopsy, no hard evidence but in the Bush, seeing is believing...to many.

Spot on.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Cheers mate, an interesting thread and a top discussion. I've gota hit the hay, early start. Have a good one.

 

[Mouse]

It's not only the $10,000 dollar steer. (steer maybe the wrong term to use - as it has no breeding value) that is lost. In many cases it's also the time spent, the pregnancy time, the birth and raising time - the potential to be future stud stock or for the freezer. Sometimes there is years of planning and executing that plan to create the outcome. So yes protecting what we have worked hard to achieve may involve shooting a snake or two. That's life on the land!!

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Hi mate, steer was the term I intended, for example, the feedlot I work on is the largest in the southern hemisphere and it holds grainfed black Angus steers bred on King island off tassie and brought to whyalla and korean wagyu steers which are being finished for slaughter at no more than 2-4 years old. No breeding intended. Each beast has a worth of 10k.

When you buy porterhouse steaks, T-bone, rump, Rib fillets, scotch fillets etc from the butcher or your local supermarket, you can almost certainly guarantee you're consuming steers. Producers don't send their "cows" and bulls to slaughter until their breeding capability has been exhausted, their teeth are worn down and they're losing condition... old cows get slaughtered and wind up, not on our plates, but in the pet food isle... as pet food. I shoot between 1,000 and 1,350 head of cattle every day... 5,000 - 7,000 head per week, less than 100 of those are cows and bulls, they're all grass or grain fed steers. All young and in prime condition.. The export beef industry is big $$ The Japanese and Chinese pay for a steak dinner what it costs me to register and insure my car for 2 years. You haven't had a prime Aussie steak unless you've eaten a steak at a high end restaurant in China or Japan...

 

[Nero Egernia]

I grew up on a farm. My parents mostly ran sheep. I've never heard of anyone killing a snake with a bullet. It was always done with a shovel or something similar. Venomous snakes were generally targeted when they were near areas that were frequented by people such as home or the shearing shed. Snakes in the paddock were mostly left alone. Pythons, however, were welcomed. They weren't seen that often, but when they were, the whole family would come and have a look.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

I grew up on a farm. My parents mostly ran sheep. I've never heard of anyone killing a snake with a bullet. It was always done with a shovel or something similar.

Almost always done with a shotgun up here. Simply because most land owners/producers are kicking around their property regularly in the Ute, on horseback or the quad on the lookout for foxes, wild dogs, dingoes, cats and feral pigs... they take a shotgun and rifle at all times... a shovel wouldn't do much good... if snakes are encountered, it's a simple lead injection, a lot easier than swinging a shovel and chasing a snake for an older bow-legged stockmen.

 

[cement]

Interesting thread, took a big tangent out to the rural sector......but i'm guessing the original video shown in the first post has more to do with suburban backyards then out on property.
As a relocator does it faze me to hear of this videos's theory.... nope.

This theory is from some very experienced names here, and it touches on (or close to) my own theories gained for over a decade of relocating snakes.
I have heard many, many stories from people who have happily resided alongside RBBS. (RBBS are one of the most common vens here on the Central Coast), they are literally everywhere. They claim around a dozen dogs here every year.
I have my own theories with relocating snakes, and basically I don't care if I do a call out or not, its not my primary source of income (you would go broke quicker then someone playing the pokies if it was). The way I see it is that it is very beneficial to have ALL snakes around, BUT I don't want accidents happening, so I work on the principal that I only attend non ven callouts when the person quite clearly shows signs of phobia, or its in their house. If there's no phobia, and the person is just uneducated then I educate them, with my goal being to talk them into leaving the snake there.
Vens,... I have no problem moving on, like I said, I don't want accidents. A couple of incidents I will relate here... - 5-6ft eastern tiger in a garage narrowly missed being tread on by a woman wearing open shoes no socks and bare legs, multiple death adders next to or on porches where people leave their lights on, multiple large blacks in garages with the odd one asleep on the mat outside the garage -living room door. I've removed dozens of blacks out of bbq's, houses,even under the xmas tree among the presents.
Snakes have a home range for sure, but they are nomadic through that range depending on the season and the prey. The prey plays a huge role here, in and around dwellings its why the snake turns up.
So, I agree in part, and I tell members of the public that having a python around is much more beneficial then not, because one reason is that they keep a lid on the population of prey animals. It could just as easily be a ven doing the work , as it could a python, they all work on the principal that it is the scent trails of the prey that lead the snakes in, so having a python on site will be lessoning the amount of scent getting around. If they make me take away the gentle, placid python I'm free handling while I talk to them (AKA the top of the food chain), then the prey animals will boom and more animals, more scent, and the one that comes in next may be the ven.
I do have a question for the people behind the video,,,,how do you know if the snake is a resident of any substantial time? And if there is a surplus of prey in an area there could easily be more then one snake in the area, but who was there first? and if a snake is trodden on at night in an unlit garage would it really matter if the owner thought they knew the snake and the snake him, or would it bite???