yes, quarantine would be a worry, im sure if you threw a shower cap, plastic booties, latex gloves and a change of clothes at them to allow them access they would have to deal with it. It doesnt sound like they want to touch animals, i read in a post on this thread that that is the reason for categories rather than exact lengths.
NSW code of practice about to be released
- Thread starter girdheinz
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cement
Very Well-Known Member
They've always had the power to look at collections. Nothing has changed there.
so much worry and stress over speculation.
so much worry and stress over speculation.
saintanger
Very Well-Known Member
i can't find anywhere on the code of practice minimum size requirments for geckos under 12 months, monitors, scalyfoots. but they have it for pythons, skinks and turtles.
anyone know that the size requirments are or there are none?
anyone know that the size requirments are or there are none?
mungus
Very Well-Known Member
Your snake would need a 1000L x 400W x ?H enclosure Min.
Which is in my opinion a min. enclosure size for a snake of that length.
Last edited:
Bart70
Well-Known Member
It was originally stated for a 7-8ft coastal. A minimum measurement of 400mm would not pass the 20% length rule for a snake this long if they wanted to be technical. 400mm would allow a 2 metre snake max, 7 ft is just over 2.13 metres. Would be over by more if the snake was closer to 8ft. 500mm would just get you to an allowable length of just over 8ft.
I do agree that the minimum sizes allowed for Morelia are relatively small given the snake sizes. I am currently planning some new enclosures and have designed them 25% bigger than the COPS and they still look a little on the small side to me. Am looking at increasing to 40-45% bigger.
mungus
Very Well-Known Member
Your 100% correct.
Like too see them get the correct length of any large python
My mate needs his scrubby measured..........:lol:
mungus
Very Well-Known Member
At the end of the day I personally dont feel that a 2 metre python living in a 1000x400 enclosure is to much to ask for...........
Or having 200x300mm hatchie tubs a pain.
These new laws will effect the massive breeders keeping everything in shoe boxes so they can cram as much as possible in the min. space they can.
My only gripe is the extensive record keeping that they are requesting.
I will now have to keep records of my adults...........when they eat, drink, pee pee and fart !! :lol:
Not to mention their nocturnal activites in winter........
Or having 200x300mm hatchie tubs a pain.
These new laws will effect the massive breeders keeping everything in shoe boxes so they can cram as much as possible in the min. space they can.
My only gripe is the extensive record keeping that they are requesting.
I will now have to keep records of my adults...........when they eat, drink, pee pee and fart !! :lol:
Not to mention their nocturnal activites in winter........
Bart70
Well-Known Member
Your 100% correct.
Like too see them get the correct length of any large python
My mate needs his scrubby measured..........:lol:
If you hold the bitey end, I will hold the tape at its tail! :lol:
I can't get an accurate length on my hatchy's...let alone something big!
Skeptic
Well-Known Member
Not sure why you quoted me... I wasn't commenting on enclosure size, I was commenting on the maths
ShaunMorelia
Very Well-Known Member
This is my understanding of the code in a summary.
I have taken into account the reply from OEH in post #250.
Enclosure Construction
Enclosure must be escape proof, animal must be safe from hazards, the animal must not be able to come in contact with other animals or unauthorised persons. (Exluding animals that are to be housed in same enclosure and if so, they must be compatible.)
Enclosure Sizes
Lizards
Less than 6 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.02m2 (e.g. 20cm x 10cm)
6 to 12 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.03m2 (e.g. 30cm x 10cm)
Older than 12 months have to comply with Table 1.
If 2 animals are housed together, then the floor area has to be increased by 50%.
So Less than 6 months = minimum 0.03m2
6 to 12 months = minimum 0.045m2
Older than 12 months = refer to Table 1 and times the area you need by 1.5 and that will be your area.
e.g. Central Bearded Dragon (category D) = 0.375m2 x 1.5 = 0.5625m2 (e.g. 1m x 0.56m)
For 3 animals and up in one enclosure, an extra 20% will need to be added.
e.g. 5 Adult Central Bearded Dragons would need;
0.375m2 x (50% + 20% + 20% + 20%)
= 0.375m2 x (110%)
= 0.375m2 x 2.1
= 0.79m2 (rounded down)
So they would need an enclosure roughly 1.3m x 0.6m
Keep in mind that the shortest length cannot be small than the Snout to Vent Length (SVL)
Snakes
Less than 6 months old, minimum enclosure floor area to be 0.02m2 (e.g. 20cm x 10cm)
6 to 12 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.06m2 (e.g. 30cm x 20cm)
Older than 12 months have to comply with Table 2.
If 2 animals are housed together, then the floor area has to be increased by 50%.
So Less than 6 months = minimum 0.03m2
6 to 12 months = minimum 0.09m2
Older than 12 months = refer to Table 2 and times the area you need by 1.5 and that will be your area.
e.g. Jungle Carpet Python (category C) = 0.4m2 x 1.5 = 0.6m2 (e.g. 1m x 0.6m)
For 3 animals and up in one enclosure, an extra 20% will need to be added.
e.g. 5 Adult Jungle Carpet Python would need;
0.4m2 x (50% + 20% + 20% + 20%)
= 0.4m2 x (110%)
= 0.4m2 x 2.1
= 0.84m2 (rounded down)
So they would need an enclosure roughly 1.4m x 0.6m
If the snake being kept is Aboreal, enclosures must be designed to allow climbing. So in this case, you can use the back wall area of the enclosure to comply to the OEH standards.
Keep in mind that the smallest side fo the enclosure cannot be smaller than 20% of the snakes' length.
Enclosure Environment
Reptiles must be given a temperature gradient, the heat sources must be designed to protect the animals from injuries. Aquatic & semi-Aquatic animals must have maintained water temperature for that species.
Enclosures must be ventilated without causing drafts.
Humidity mUst be as per species requirements.
Reptiles must be given a day/night cycle.
Glass must not be placed between the UV lamp and the species requiring it and must also be spaced away to provide the required UV levels.
Enclosure Furnishings
Substrate must be provided to keep the animal clean and dry, which must be replaced in part or entirety when soiled by waste material.
If the species being kept, who in the wild, normally moves through loose surface materials, must be provided with enough substrate to bury itself (e.g. Sand-Swimmer etc).
Animals that usually burrow, must have provided opportunites to burrow or provided with artifical burrows. (So either supply substrate that can be compacted to allw the creation of burrow, or a hide for the animal to use as a "burrow".)
Animals are to be provided with a phisical barrier to be used as a hide.
Reptiles that are aboreal, are to be provided with cage furnishings to allow climbing. These furninshing must be secured so it cannot cause injury to the animal being kept.
Food, Water and Cleaning
Feed your animal the approprite food items with the frequency as required by that species.
Clean the cage when it passed the food items you've just fed it.
Supply the animal with access to fresh water at all times in a container that cannot be tipped over.
If the animal doesn't drink from a dish, then do what it needs to be able to drink (e.g. misting)
Transport
Put the animal in a labled container that is escape and crush proof, well ventilated.
Container must not be placed in direct sunlight and do not feed the animal during transport.
Transported animals are to be provided with water prior to transport.
Quarantine
No Standards......What the hell....
So My standard is a minimum 3 months away from collection and always feed, clean and handle after the rest of your collection has been looked after.
After dealing with the quarantined animal, change of clothes and a wash before going back into main collection.
Better safe than sorry.
Record Keeping
As per licence requirements
As for Appendix B, I don't think that should be used, my understanding of the reply email that was posted, they will only be enforcing enclosure sizes going by the average maximum size of that species of animal. So design and build your enclosures to suit.
I hope this helps some people out, and don't take this post as gospel, please do read the OEH Code of Practice for yourself. This summary has been written up by myself from my understanding of the code.
If you have any questions, feel free to post below, otherwise send OEH an email at [email protected]
Cheers
Shaun.
I have taken into account the reply from OEH in post #250.
Enclosure Construction
Enclosure must be escape proof, animal must be safe from hazards, the animal must not be able to come in contact with other animals or unauthorised persons. (Exluding animals that are to be housed in same enclosure and if so, they must be compatible.)
Enclosure Sizes
Lizards
Less than 6 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.02m2 (e.g. 20cm x 10cm)
6 to 12 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.03m2 (e.g. 30cm x 10cm)
Older than 12 months have to comply with Table 1.
If 2 animals are housed together, then the floor area has to be increased by 50%.
So Less than 6 months = minimum 0.03m2
6 to 12 months = minimum 0.045m2
Older than 12 months = refer to Table 1 and times the area you need by 1.5 and that will be your area.
e.g. Central Bearded Dragon (category D) = 0.375m2 x 1.5 = 0.5625m2 (e.g. 1m x 0.56m)
For 3 animals and up in one enclosure, an extra 20% will need to be added.
e.g. 5 Adult Central Bearded Dragons would need;
0.375m2 x (50% + 20% + 20% + 20%)
= 0.375m2 x (110%)
= 0.375m2 x 2.1
= 0.79m2 (rounded down)
So they would need an enclosure roughly 1.3m x 0.6m
Keep in mind that the shortest length cannot be small than the Snout to Vent Length (SVL)
Snakes
Less than 6 months old, minimum enclosure floor area to be 0.02m2 (e.g. 20cm x 10cm)
6 to 12 months old, minimum enclosure floor area must be 0.06m2 (e.g. 30cm x 20cm)
Older than 12 months have to comply with Table 2.
If 2 animals are housed together, then the floor area has to be increased by 50%.
So Less than 6 months = minimum 0.03m2
6 to 12 months = minimum 0.09m2
Older than 12 months = refer to Table 2 and times the area you need by 1.5 and that will be your area.
e.g. Jungle Carpet Python (category C) = 0.4m2 x 1.5 = 0.6m2 (e.g. 1m x 0.6m)
For 3 animals and up in one enclosure, an extra 20% will need to be added.
e.g. 5 Adult Jungle Carpet Python would need;
0.4m2 x (50% + 20% + 20% + 20%)
= 0.4m2 x (110%)
= 0.4m2 x 2.1
= 0.84m2 (rounded down)
So they would need an enclosure roughly 1.4m x 0.6m
If the snake being kept is Aboreal, enclosures must be designed to allow climbing. So in this case, you can use the back wall area of the enclosure to comply to the OEH standards.
Keep in mind that the smallest side fo the enclosure cannot be smaller than 20% of the snakes' length.
Enclosure Environment
Reptiles must be given a temperature gradient, the heat sources must be designed to protect the animals from injuries. Aquatic & semi-Aquatic animals must have maintained water temperature for that species.
Enclosures must be ventilated without causing drafts.
Humidity mUst be as per species requirements.
Reptiles must be given a day/night cycle.
Glass must not be placed between the UV lamp and the species requiring it and must also be spaced away to provide the required UV levels.
Enclosure Furnishings
Substrate must be provided to keep the animal clean and dry, which must be replaced in part or entirety when soiled by waste material.
If the species being kept, who in the wild, normally moves through loose surface materials, must be provided with enough substrate to bury itself (e.g. Sand-Swimmer etc).
Animals that usually burrow, must have provided opportunites to burrow or provided with artifical burrows. (So either supply substrate that can be compacted to allw the creation of burrow, or a hide for the animal to use as a "burrow".)
Animals are to be provided with a phisical barrier to be used as a hide.
Reptiles that are aboreal, are to be provided with cage furnishings to allow climbing. These furninshing must be secured so it cannot cause injury to the animal being kept.
Food, Water and Cleaning
Feed your animal the approprite food items with the frequency as required by that species.
Clean the cage when it passed the food items you've just fed it.
Supply the animal with access to fresh water at all times in a container that cannot be tipped over.
If the animal doesn't drink from a dish, then do what it needs to be able to drink (e.g. misting)
Transport
Put the animal in a labled container that is escape and crush proof, well ventilated.
Container must not be placed in direct sunlight and do not feed the animal during transport.
Transported animals are to be provided with water prior to transport.
Quarantine
No Standards......What the hell....
So My standard is a minimum 3 months away from collection and always feed, clean and handle after the rest of your collection has been looked after.
After dealing with the quarantined animal, change of clothes and a wash before going back into main collection.
Better safe than sorry.
Record Keeping
As per licence requirements
As for Appendix B, I don't think that should be used, my understanding of the reply email that was posted, they will only be enforcing enclosure sizes going by the average maximum size of that species of animal. So design and build your enclosures to suit.
I hope this helps some people out, and don't take this post as gospel, please do read the OEH Code of Practice for yourself. This summary has been written up by myself from my understanding of the code.
If you have any questions, feel free to post below, otherwise send OEH an email at [email protected]
Cheers
Shaun.
Last edited:
Bart70
Well-Known Member
Sorted.You might want to check your reference to a Coastal Carpet being Class C. Unless I am reading the COPS incorrectly I am fairly certain it says it is a D. If this is the case you might need to change your original post and adjust the maths just in cases somebody reads it and takes it as correct.
Happy to stand corrected if I am wrong tho....
Last edited by a moderator:
hulloosenator
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GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ..........now its going to take years to get an import/export permit or license renewal , because all the overworked and understaffed NPWS personel will be out on the road checking hundreds and thousands of cages and measuring them up and handing out fines and warnings ( haha ) ....... making life very difficult for themselves , eh ?
ShaunMorelia
Very Well-Known Member
At least they've made it all online now.
So from what I've been told, it's a pretty straight forward thing and is instant?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
Lacelover
New Member
Id say because Lace monitors generally need or should have double there body length for the length and than the average body length for the Depth and oviously as much height as possible but can get away with it slightly smaller if you have a climable surface on the back of the enclosure for example Dave kirshner has for his lacies thats where they are getting that figure. But Id say they have put that in place to decrease the amount of inexperienced reptile keepers wanting lace monitors, which just about everyone does cause they are beautiful animals!! Not trying to be smart or act like a know it all though!
and before anyone else comments on what my lacies are in it is 4.5 length 3.5 depth and 3m height
and before anyone else comments on what my lacies are in it is 4.5 length 3.5 depth and 3m height
I think from all that I've read, seen and understand, this entire code is way off in regards to the governing bodies implementing the codes. Aren't NPWS about conservation? This code has nothing in regards to conservation, it is a stab at reptile keepers carried fourth purely by a bureaucrat with his own agenda! Our herps are not part of the wild cohort and thus are not a representation of any conservation value other than enabling people like ourselves to enjoy species and take interest in the environment. So why are the government bodies involved? Our reptiles are pets, the more children that own native pet, the more likely we are going to have future generations with changed attitudes toward our beautiful fauna and flora and the more conservation of the environment likely to occur. How is minimum cage sizes enabling the ease of kids, families and individuals to gain a better understanding of our ecosystems (fauna & flora), and the value they hold!
This is dumb policy, enforced by individuals that aren't representing societies agenda, rather their own! I've never been for unnecessary evils and this includes cruelty to animals, but our reptiles aren't anything like mammals and birds. Birds and mammals need much higher levels of stimulus with their complex social structures, active lifestyle, exercise demands etc... Reptiles don't need constant stimulus, most lizards and snakes would sit and ambush prey whilst spending the wrest of their time thermoregulating, mating etc.... Larger cages that are not backed up the rigorous scientific evidence have huge potential impede on the health of many pet reptiles, isn't that an ethical issue:
Larger cages are much harder to maintain heat, subjecting animals to below optimum temperatures.
Many neonates are aggro-phobic and feel vulnerable in a large area as hard wired into their genetics, (if in the open, higher chance of being predated).
So guys, let's remember that these are reptiles and not birds or mammals... totally different needs!
I think that if we get audited we should be writing to ministers in government explaining how the code is a waist of tax payer money, not a conservation issue and back it up with our vast knowledge in the literature!! Yes this code is to target the big fish, but what happens to the kids that keep healthy animals and have gained an invaluable insight into biology, the environment etc are told that they need to build bigger cages they can't afford and at the expense of the health of their pet?
Let's begin sending the minister a message in writing!
This is dumb policy, enforced by individuals that aren't representing societies agenda, rather their own! I've never been for unnecessary evils and this includes cruelty to animals, but our reptiles aren't anything like mammals and birds. Birds and mammals need much higher levels of stimulus with their complex social structures, active lifestyle, exercise demands etc... Reptiles don't need constant stimulus, most lizards and snakes would sit and ambush prey whilst spending the wrest of their time thermoregulating, mating etc.... Larger cages that are not backed up the rigorous scientific evidence have huge potential impede on the health of many pet reptiles, isn't that an ethical issue:
Larger cages are much harder to maintain heat, subjecting animals to below optimum temperatures.
Many neonates are aggro-phobic and feel vulnerable in a large area as hard wired into their genetics, (if in the open, higher chance of being predated).
So guys, let's remember that these are reptiles and not birds or mammals... totally different needs!
I think that if we get audited we should be writing to ministers in government explaining how the code is a waist of tax payer money, not a conservation issue and back it up with our vast knowledge in the literature!! Yes this code is to target the big fish, but what happens to the kids that keep healthy animals and have gained an invaluable insight into biology, the environment etc are told that they need to build bigger cages they can't afford and at the expense of the health of their pet?
Let's begin sending the minister a message in writing!
jacorin
Well-Known Member
so if i make cabinets 2.5x0.6x0.6 these should be good for coastals and darwins?? being they are "climbers"
ShaunMorelia
Very Well-Known Member
While I was starting to knock up a new page for my website to allow keepers to select their species, put in their enclosure size and it will let them know if their enclosure complies, I noticed that the code has said for Snakes 6-18 months old only has to have a minimum area of 0.06m2.
Now please tell me this, would a scrubby at 15 months old that has been consistently fed fit comfortably inside an enclosure that is 30cm x 20cm?
I know this states it as a "minimum", but will some people take advantage of the enforceable sized enclosures?
Just another thing as to why this code should be guidelines and not enforceable standards...
Now please tell me this, would a scrubby at 15 months old that has been consistently fed fit comfortably inside an enclosure that is 30cm x 20cm?
I know this states it as a "minimum", but will some people take advantage of the enforceable sized enclosures?
Just another thing as to why this code should be guidelines and not enforceable standards...
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