Question about snake show with tiger snakes

[elapid@]

yeah its not defanging its a venomoid taking the venom glands out...and replacing it with silicone.like a Brest implant....though yeah i do agree it should not be done as its disrespectful and cruel

 

[Nighthawk]

i would really like to see evidence that touching a restrained elapid is going to make kids go running to the nearest bushland and dive on a tiger snake.

This is probably going to sound more aggressive than I mean it, but do you have kids? Without the education we've given them I know mine would happily go looking for them after petting a restrained one, which is why I'm glad they're growing up around them so they know not to, and incidentally don't have to. I also had to give my nephew from NZ a talking-to after I busted him lifting up rocks and bush-bashing for snakes when he came to visit, so there are kids out there who would, and even if they don't actively go looking it sends the wrong message should they encounter one by chance, particularly in that age range. It only takes one kid in a class with that attitude (I had that attitude as a kid myself, but thankfully I grew up in NZ lol).
It's kind of a catch22 really, this is why we need better education on the subject, particularly recognition between vens and pythons, but at that age-range the focus needs to be more on 'look but don't touch' rather than *saying* that and then sending a conflicting message by allowing very young children to approach and interact.

 

[Tassie97]

i am not being involved

 

[bobthefish]

Feel free to contact Ross Monash DPIPQWE 1300 368 550 There is only one python that is "too nippy" the children did also touch a childrens python a bluetongue and a murry darling I also surgest that your school contact me if there is any issues that they have so they can be addresed. My phone is 0418 170 952. It would allso be nice if you told people of the brochure I give out to everyone that also outlines the important information on what and how to deal with snakes. Thank you Michael Thow

I very much appreciate what you are trying to do, but as a parent and teacher I cannot say that it was acceptable to allow kids to handle venomous snakes, even if they were restrained. My wife and I have spoken to the herpetologist at Healesville Sanctuary about this, who agreed unreservedly and stated that under no circumstances is allowing a child from 5-8 to touch a tiger snake acceptable. As a teacher I also know that children are unable to distinguish between "restrained" and "unrestrained." Many, many studies have shown that many kids at this age are unable to make the sort of mental jump between "pet snake" and "wild snake."

The brochure was excellent- accurate and informative. But it's way over the head of your average primary school kid, and a lot of their parents too.

We did intend on contacting you, but obviously you know now. From speaking to other parents I know there is a tremendous amount of shock and anger over this, and I would suggest that there is going to be a real storm.

But at the end of the day both you and the schools were to blame for putting my child at risk. If I had been properly informed of what was being done, I would have NEVER agreed to let her go. That it happened at all shows a definite lack of judgement all around.

But once again, we do support you 100% in educating people and kids about the beauty and fascinating nature of snakes. Just not when it puts my child, or any children, at risk.

As teachers and people with in loco parentis responsibility over students we have to decide whether the potential risks of an activity, even if far-fetched, outweigh the potential benefits, and whether or not the educational goals of the activity could be gained in a less risky manner. Unreservedly my opinion is yes to both considerations.

We have already contacted Ross Monash, on Friday when we were able to make sure that it was in fact a tiger snake involved. We will be sitting down with the principal of the school in question and discussing this, and also forwarding all of our correspondence on the matter to Learning Services and to the risk management division of the Education Department. It is our opinion that this entire event shows a clear inadequacy in the implementation of the Department's risk management program.

That there were at least three schools involved and NO ONE who planned or supervised the events thought that there was anything wrong demonstrates a systemic failure, and a serious one. I for one will be revoking all local excursion permission for my daughter.

It's a pity too, because she absolutely loved the show. But how would her and the rest of the group feel about snakes if she had somehow gotten bitten?

There needs to be a clear code of conduct in Tassie, like the rest of Australia, and especially when dealing with children, common sense needs to prevail.

And Tassie- no I do not have snakes at the moment, or other reptiles. I've been too busy for them. But I have a long history of snake keeping, and my Dad used to be a consultant to the San Diego Zoo's Reptile House.

 

[AM Pythons]

keep kids inside in front of the play station, dont let them play with wildlife.. they may just learn something or end up just luck us... keeping & liking reptiles.. we dont want that do we....

 

[bobthefish]

We don't have a play station, but we do have a bookcase full of nature books and a DVD cabinet full of David Attenborough. I have a Masters Degree in Environmental Management, and spent ten years working as a wildlife rehabilitator. My wife is a vet nurse. That sort of statement doesn't apply to us, AM.

And I'm sure those kids would have built a life-long love of snakes if someone had gotten bitten. Think about it, AM....

And just for the record- it's not the snake handler I'm after. It's the failed system that let this happen!

 

[AM Pythons]

if your 5-8yo doesnt understand 'dont touch reptiles unless an adult is presant' there isnt much you can do...

 

[longqi]

If I had known what has come out now about them actually having pythons available, I would not have writen what I did in my first post

Although I have used RBBs in displays I have always and always will use pythons wherever possible
If they thought their pythons were 'nippy' they should not even have contemplated doing a show
To use a tiger instead is definitely a stupid option

PS
It sounds like Tasmania is finally getting its act together regarding pythons which is about time
For years I begged to take pythons down there and demo them but was always refused
I once actually got verbal permission to bring two male pythons [no females]
But a week before I was booked to go they retracted that in writing
When you do a show anywhere the reaction of Tasmanians to any snake is usually very different to people from other states
So education down there is definitely something that needs encouragement

 

[kawasakirider]

When you do a show anywhere the reaction of Tasmanians to any snake is usually very different to people from other states
So education down there is definitely something that needs encouragement

I lived in Tassie for a few years, and all my mates from Tassy that are on my FB friends list see the pics of my snakes and advocate shooting snakes.

The mentality down there is...... different........ In regards to everything, lol.

 

[AM Pythons]

well tassie didnt start with the best 'stock' for human production did they..lol.. it was the place were the worst of the worst ppl were sent..

 

[bobthefish]

I lived in Tassie for a few years, and all my mates from Tassy that are on my FB friends list see the pics of my snakes and advocate shooting snakes.

The mentality down there is...... different........ In regards to everything, lol.

This sort of thing wont help that mentality, if it goes wrong. Quite the opposite. And actually, I've found the mentality here far better than in country Victoria. Perhaps it is the absence of brown snakes. Most Tasmanians I've discussed it with are of the "leave it alone" mentality. But there's rednecks in every state.

 

[Inspiration]

We're not talking about an individual child aged 5 to 8 years, we're talking about a group of 40 of them, all together, and that's where it gets tricky. I have a 7 year old who has been around venomous snakes, has been educated on all sorts of things, knows how to check the pouch of a kangaroo that's been hit by a car/truck, all sorts of things, but I would never let her touch a venomous snake, or one that can give a nasty bite, if there were 40 kids around making noises and making random, fast movements that can startle an animal. IMO it's dangerous having that amount of children around an animal. It's also not fair on the animal to be subjected to the stress of the noise created by a large group of children.

 

[bobthefish]

Just to let you all know- I have spoken (via email) with the gentleman who ran the show, and expressed my displeasure and point of view. I would like to say that his presentation was excellent, other than the snake touching bit, and that as I have expressed before, he is doing an extremely important service to Tasmania (and its reptiles). My beef is not with the gentleman, but the school system that didn't say that letting children pet a tiger snake without their parent's permission is unacceptable. I do very much hope that these shows continue with ven's on display and pythons to touch.

The failing here is not the demonstrator's, but the state for not establishing adequate guidelines and the schools for not expressing to the demonstrator what they could and couldn't not legally allow to be done. The demonstrator was merely doing his job.

 

[snakehandler]

Sorry, but as a teacher, scientist and demonstrator I can tell you there are much more effective ways of educating children without giving direct access to a venomous snake.

 

[MrFireStorm]

Hmmmm....Maybe we should stop all public displays just on the off chance a reptile is having an off day and "may" bite someone????

 

[shellfisch]

As a parent, I would be a whole lot more pi$$ed off if my child was bitten (at a school sanctioned demonstration) by a Tiger snake, as opposed to a Coastal....

 

[snakehandler]

No definitely not, but responsible and safe handling is required, if head restraint is required then the animal is not safe, by allowing touch and feel of the and feel of the animals helps some people over come fears, so demonstrators in Tassie should be given permission to have pythons and other reptiles to enable this with a much higher degree of safety. I do believe changes are happening slowly, just as they are here in Victoria.

It only takes a few incidents with venomous snakes at shows to threaten the ability for these shows to exist, remember it us not a right we have, but privilege, if we abuse privileges we loose them!

The risk of bite is not greater with a venomous snake necessarily but the outcome is much more severe....so they need to be handled differently!

 

[bobthefish]

Hmmmm....Maybe we should stop all public displays just on the off chance a reptile is having an off day and "may" bite someone????

That doesn't really merit a response.

 

[MrFireStorm]

No definitely not, but responsible and safe handling is required, if head restraint is required then the animal is not safe, by allowing touch and feel of the and feel of the animals helps some people over come fears, so demonstrators in Tassie should be given permission to have pythons and other reptiles to enable this with a much higher degree of safety. I do believe changes are happening slowly, just as they are here in Victoria.

It only takes a few incidents with venomous snakes at shows to threaten the ability for these shows to exist, remember it us not a right we have, but privilege, if we abuse privileges we loose them!

The risk of bite is not greater with a venomous snake necessarily but the outcome is much more severe....so they need to be handled differently!

Fully agree mate.....hence my thread a while a go about "Free-handling"....but some had no problems with it.

That doesn't really merit a response.

My apologies....Wasn't aware that only your opinions, concerns or comments were the only one's that count

 

[Waterrat]

Just to let you all know- I have spoken (via email) with the gentleman who ran the show, and expressed my displeasure and point of view. I would like to say that his presentation was excellent, other than the snake touching bit, and that as I have expressed before, he is doing an extremely important service to Tasmania (and its reptiles). My beef is not with the gentleman, but the school system that didn't say that letting children pet a tiger snake without their parent's permission is unacceptable. I do very much hope that these shows continue with ven's on display and pythons to touch.

The failing here is not the demonstrator's, but the state for not establishing adequate guidelines and the schools for not expressing to the demonstrator what they could and couldn't not legally allow to be done. The demonstrator was merely doing his job.

Bob, why do you blame the state? They appointed a qualified, experienced, registered reptile demonstrator to do the job and he has done his job as per regulations. Why is it that people always have to find someone to blame even if nothing bad happened? Pardon me for being blunt but rather than blaming someone and spreading it on a forum, wouldn't your time be better spent talking to your child about snakes and the tiger snake in particular? You, as a parent are in the first line of influence on your child. Blaming "the system" for everything seems to be the way to go, that's why the world is where it is.