R.I.P. Ivory

[Tikanderoga]

Sorry for your loss Jeannine.
I don't have beardies myself, but I always admire the water dragons and the blue tongues around our house. It was bad enough when I had to dispose of a dead one from the garden - found next to a dead cane toad.

 

[Jeannine]

to everyone who posted here you have my many heartfelt thanks

philk your comments (and others) are the reason i posted about her in here so i could understand what could have possibly gone wrong and how i could avoid it in the future, as i said i at first thought the blood may have been from some bit of sharpish edge of a cricket like its leg, mouth rot does sound like it could be the culprit and not something i knew about

while the mistakes i made caused her suffering and eventually her death i intend to learn from it so it will never happen again and from now on i will take straight to a vet and 'hope' they will be able to find out what is wrong

no from what i can remember her nostrils were still clean and didnt appear to be clogged

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/member/jfjellstrom-23837/jfjellstrom they are cuddly creatures, she loved her cuddles

she also accepted every other animal in this house as her family even the cats, who right from the day she came to us were learning she is part of the family and were not giving her any hassles when out, the goal was to allow her when she was big enough to roam the computer room without being hassled by the other animals

 

[Jeannine]

this was titled 'Mexican stand off' the cats name is brandy

 

[Reptilequeen]

Aww so sorry

Im really sorry for your loss, its awful loosing a reptile because they have a special way of stealing your heart away!And yep they do give you affection, all my reps have with me. You did your best and your little beardie knows that (theyre smarter than we are)I have one Cunningham skink 7 years old he lost his mate a year ago due to liver failure which is quite common in cunninghams. All he has is a big heat rock on thermostat control, I keep it on for him all the time as he cant burn himself. And during the day I put him in his enclosure outside in the sun and fesh air usually I need to watch him constantly to see that he isnt overheating he's got part sun part shade. Its easy for me because I work from home so Im there all the time for him. He spends alot of his time out of his enclosure he's just there to sleep or be outside. I haven't ever had artificial lighting atall for my lizards, only my snake. But he thrives and has done for 7 years, he has a great life. But you have done really well its not your fault your beardie died, reps are funny creatures all of a sudden they can just go down hill for what seems like no apparent reason. I just enjoy my fella everyday, cuase I just never know, like his mate he just all of a sudden went, and I kind of still blame myself, but theyre in capitivity and things sometimes can just happen. She looked a beautiful little beardie too!! RIP :cry:

 

[PhilK]

Also remember Jeannine that reptiles are very good at masking signs of illness.. if they acted sick in the wild they would be eaten so they are very good at pretending to be fine until the last moment when their bodies can no longer do so and they crash out. It happens with birds a lot too and makes it hard to find illness early.

My advice now is to certainly get another beardie or different type of lizard and get right back on the horse. Post plenty of questions here and do lots of reading and you will be right!

 

[Lollypop]

I'm with u PhilK!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

A few things worth considering...

Lizards (& snakes) either are 'brumating,' or they are not, there are no halfway measures. The physiological changes which induce brumation are significant, and it is likely you caused the death of the animal by continually disturbing it, and pumping it with food & water when it couldn't deal with the input. I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but it truly concerns me when inexperienced keepers feel they must interfere with natural processes, which, after all are simply a reflection of the animal's natural heritage and adaptation to the climate & habitat in which they live.

Bearded Dragons are compliant lizards, which is why they are popular as pets. They do, however, only 'tolerate' human interference - they don't seek to become 'part of the family', although they might seem to take pleasure in human company. Even though bred for generations in captivity, they are definitely not domestic animals, and you do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

The fact that your lizard consistently sought to brumate should have told you that it needed to be left alone, probably for months, until the days get longer and the weather warms up. It simply does not need food and water during that time, although you could probably make water available should it waken occasionally. If it was active, hungry and thirsty, it would have been out and about constantly.

There seems to be a great tendency for inexperienced keepers to overmanage their reptiles (which have been doing fine without human interference for millions of years) and to worry about the slightest change in behaviour.

These animals are largely seasonal in their behaviour, and for very good reason. They are not dogs, cats, or birds which have to maintain significant food & water intake remain active year round. The scented candles will have nothing to do with the death of your lizard.

Jamie

 

[sandswimmer]

Bearded Dragons are compliant lizards, which is why they are popular as pets. They do, however, only 'tolerate' human interference - they don't seek to become 'part of the family', although they might seem to take pleasure in human company. Even though bred for generations in captivity, they are definitely not domestic animals, and you do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

Jamie

I'm glad someone said it. Why do people always feel the need to anthropomorphise their pets? I am sorry for your loss, but before you purchase another lizard you must realise that they do best when essentially left to their own devices

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"she also accepted every other animal in this house as her family even the cats,"

This is a worry. Bearded Dragons have no interest in networking with your family or other pets - they don't live in families. "Family" is your concept, not one a dragon would even be aware of. It was probably your need to be needed that killed your animal, when you should have understood when it NEEDED to be left alone.

Before you get another reptile, please do a bit of decent research so you have an understanding of what the reptile requires of you, rather than the other way around.

All reptiles need in captivity for a long, healthy life is appropriate environment, appropriate temperatures, food and water (obviously at the appropriate times). Anything more you offer them is for you, not them.

Reptilequeen, your very silly post is one of the reasons why reptiles often have too many expectations placed upon them as pets. Reptiles are not appropriate pets for needy people.

Jamie.

 

[LadyJ]

I don't know that I could read this without replying...

First, and, most importantly, I'm so sorry for your loss Jeannine... I know I always bring it up but I recently suffered the loss of my blue-tongue, Arby. I know how horrible it is and that the pain will never just go away, but I can tell you it does get a lot better with time. I've done a few things to remember him (which, judging by the response of other posters, will be merely laughed at and mocked), but if you want me to go into some things that have helped me please message me (goes for anyone, I'm usually open with this... but feeling uncomfortable now).

Perhaps you did make a few mistakes but it really is easy to see how much you cared for gorgeous Ivory, your heart was in the right place and I believe it does no harm to the animal to place sentimentality on it, you did all the things you thought were right.

This does however sound a lot similar to the loss of Arby, whom I can only speculate suffered mouth-rot. I'll have to say that I am with the other posters that mentioned studying and learning a lot more about these beautiful animals, you can never learn enough and what may seem like the basics is always important to continue to learn.

But anyway... I hope you can learn a bit more and get another reptile soon. For those that say your animal doesn't 'need' or 'want' your attention or care, don't listen to them. It's a lot wiser to put your heart into an animal and try to give it the best, really let it into your life, than merely see them as a 'collection' (the mere thought of treating animals as something to be collected like stamps makes my stomach turn...).

Reptiles to have to be treated differently and they'e truely not a companion animal, but they still are amazing creatures and it doesn't mean those that are sentimental on the subject should be shunned.

I know that I've just snuffed out my low-profile within this forum and a lot of people won't agree with me... but I really do wish the best Jeannine and to others, please have a heart.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

LadyJ, a lot of what you have said actually concurs with what I've stated. Of course you can, and maybe should, be sentimental about your animals of any sort, but that doesn't mean you turn them into 'little people with scales." They are simply NOT little people with scales, and keepers do a great disservice to their animals by trying to see human characteristics in their behaviour.

I've had reptiles for decades, and my success in keeping and breeding certainly does come from 'putting my heart' into their care and welfare. I am not unsentimental either, I just know what reptiles are, what they need, and what their expectations of me are, and being realistic about it. My attitude is not born of being a 'stamp collector' - that is just as bad as anthropomorphising a reptile 'pet' in my opinion.

I actually really enjoy seeing a pet such as a Bearded Dragon being treated as a cherished creature, but not seeing it's tolerant behaviour interpreted as some sort of love affair with humanity. That removes all natural dignity from the animal, and to me is indicative of a very needy person who actually imposes on the animal in their care.

I guess this attitude offends some people... ah well, you can please some of the people...

Of course I am guilty of making some awful mistakes in years past, which cost some of the anmals in my care their lives, but in the 50s, 60s & 70s there was scant info around with regard to reptile husbandry. My argument is that there is just SO MUCH INFORMATION around now, there is little excuse for failure.

Learn about reptiles, treat your charges as reptiles (and not little scaly people) and you shouldn't go wrong.

Jamie.

 

[redbellybite]

Sorry for your loss ...losing a pet no matter what type ,if it holds a part of your heart, it hurts to see them pass over...
after reading this thread regardless of how clinical Jamie may come across to some people on here ..you have to agree he makes alot of sense now. maybe you should actually send him a pm and ask for some information about keeping etc before getting any new type of reptile ..
and leave the 'pink fluffy bunny hugging 'type of posts in this thread------- just that LEAVE THEM ...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I don't think it's enough to say 'don't worry, it's not your fault,' or offer sentiments that don't contain cold, hard advice. The animal died (and lots of others do) because of a mistaken idea about its needs/wants. We will see more and more of this as reptile keeping becomes more popular, and they are readily available to those with little or no knowledge.

Maybe I'm a bit blunt (a characteristic of mine), but if I hammer the point home hard enough, maybe someone will take notice. There have been quite a few posts in this thread which are not at all constructive, in fact, could be just the opposite.

Jeannine sought advice here, and little useful advice was given. I point out that there is a fundamental problem with the way Jeannine interprets the behaviour of her animal, in the hope she learns from the mistakes she made. The animal probably didn't die from 'some unknown cause' - it died because its needs weren't understood.

By the way, mixing cats and lizards is NOT a good idea...

Jamie.

 

[LadyJ]

I agree that wrongs were made and that putting any animal in the same position as you would a child is sick (which I DO NOT think the owner was doing)... but this must be a difficult time for the owner, and that should be respected.

So what, people enjoy the company of their animals... it's not a matter of ''pink fluffy bunny hugging'' (whatever THAT means) it's a matter of them enjoying their company.

My animals are treated like animals but they're still a massive part of my family, my life, and myself.

Not meaning to hi-jack... RIP Ivory and hang in there Jeannine.

 

[sandswimmer]

So what, people enjoy the company of their animals... it's not a matter of ''pink fluffy bunny hugging'' (whatever THAT means) it's a matter of them enjoying their company.

It is fine for people to enjoy their animals, but not when it comprises the animal's health and well-being. If you want a companion animal, get a dog, not a reptile.

 

[LadyJ]

It is fine for people to enjoy their animals, but not when it comprises the animal's health and well-being. If you want a companion animal, get a dog, not a reptile.

Look, I'd never comprimise the health of one of my animals. I HAVE a companion animal, my bird and the reptiles are totally different, I understand that.

 

[Jeannine]

thanks everyone even those who appeared 'harsh'

i posted here about her to try to understand what happened, however with a lot of things one ends up with conflicting advice

some don't let their BD's brumate and those animals do really well, others let them do what is natural and they also do really well, sometimes the opposite happens

i am sorry but ivory knew who we were, the experience with my neighbor showed me that, she was good with us but displayed her defensive mode to the neighbor, no one can convince me she didn't realise a stranger when she heard? one

i did do a lot of reading i also asked questions in here, i also did a lot of work to improve her heating and lighting, we had also bought a 4ft tank for her so she would have more room to move around as she was growing, i was also in the process of getting the UVB fluro lights for the new enclosure as well even though we would put her outside on good days for direct sunlight

please remember even the most informed person in here was once an inexperienced keeper and had to learn as they progressed

so who do us 'newbies' believe? or do we take all the advice throw it into a hat, toss them around and whatever we pick out we follow? as i said before in this thread i have read on this very site

A. don't let young one sleep thru their FIRST brumation
B. let your reptiles sleep thru their first winter
C. 'wake' them up for fluid/water
C. don't wake them up for fluid/water
D. don't use heat pads/use heat pads

please can u see why some of us get confused? and i do understand 'everyone' is trying to help and i (and im sure others) appreciate everything everyone does for us

 

[Lollypop]

You are quite right Jeannine - who do u believe?? Those saying they absolutely know could be totally new to the industry!!!
Get to know the names on here, & what advice is offered, constructive or otherwise, but in regard to whether it's for the health of your animal. That's what I did for months prior to even joining, so I had an idea who to listen to to any degree.
I in all regards agree with pythoninfinite (be it as blunt as u may lol), & I always advise people who buy off me that if they want a cuddly animal, buy a dog!!!!
He has also admitted that they've made mistakes - & that's how it is!! (unfortunately). If you're getting advice from someone who says they're perfect - well, probably just ignore it.
I've said go again - that's what I did when my first died due to my inadequacies as an owner, to prove to myself I could do it ...... but not before I knew I could keep that animal alive for the rest of it's 'natural' life.
Cheers hey!

 

[phantomreptiles]

I agree and disagree - it does not matter what animal you chooose as your "pet", research sould be made for temps, humidity, food, water, excercise, etc... If you decide to take on a pet, no matter if it be feathered, furred, scaled or otherwise. The research done should the the same no matter what pet you aquire, any person deciding on a pet regardless of its species, should undertake the basic understanding and introduction to their chosen species to give it the best and most appropiate housing, feeding, tempertures,etc....

 

[Jeannine]

i did research and read prior to getting her, i learnt a few things i needed to do to make her happy and comfortable


reptiles like human babies don't come with a manual that says 'this product might develop the following, blah blah blah, and newbies like me can research as much as we can and ask questions BUT how am i suppose to know about mouth rot? unless i encounter it and by then its probably too late

we can be as prepared as much as humanly possible, read as much as possible but until it happens what do we do?

what would happen if i did a post in here and asked breeders/owners to list to me every symptom to every disease a BD could possibly get no matter how little the odds

i did with my BD what i thought was right from THINGS i read in here, as i said some say let them brumate the first year, others have said don't let them do it and what if both pieces of advice came from respected members who are trustworthy but obviously have different views? not to mention you then have b, c, d, agreeing with A and then x, y, z, agreeing W

who do we believe?

i googled something the other night regarding the beetle form of meal worms and again got conflicting information so while we can research and ask as many questions as we can and we will be left to workout for ourselves which advice we will follow, so even if we researching chances are were going to get conflicting advice as well