Restricted Woma's

[Retic]

RE: Restricted Womas

Where can I see a list of the species that are considered rare and/or threatened ? There MUST be a list or it is open to interpretation surely ?

 

[geckodan]

RE: Restricted Womas

Hi Boa, he list did exist but merely as a courtesy done by one ranger. Otherwise it is an open list . I have emailed Leslie Shirreffs this morning with the following questions:

1. It is my understanding that in addition to those listed species in the schedule that a reptile is considered as “restricted” if it fits into the criteria of being ”rare and endangered in QLD in the wild” regardless of its captive status. Is this correct?

2. The principal species being discussed is the Woma Python (Aspidites ramsayi). Is this a restricted species in QLD based on that criteria.?

3. If it is a restricted species, can a recreational licencee maintain two individuals before a restricted licence is required ?.

4. If issue 3. is correct, must a recreational licencee apply for a restricted licence once this limit of two is reached e.g a third animal is to be purchased or the previous two animals are to be bred from.?

5. What criteria is required to be met before an individual will be granted a restricted licence.? How will this criteria differ if the individual wishes to keep a restricted elapid, gecko, skink or pygopod? Is there different criteria for different target species and will the permit be granted conditional to this??

6. If a recreational licence holder holding two restricted species wishes to upgrade their licence to a restricted licence (e.g. because their animal has bred) but do not meet the above criteria , what will be the outcome for the animals that they currently keep?

7. As the list of elapid snakes in the schedule is not exhaustive of all elapid snakes available in captivity, is it possible for an individual holding a recreational licence to keep an elapid snake species that does not meet the criteria of a restricted species (not on the list and not endangered) e.g. Cacophis spp., Furina spp., Suta spp.. ?

I will post her answer for all to read.

 

[Retic]

RE: Restricted Womas

Thanks Dan, I am sure there must be some reasonable explanation to this ridiculous situation ? Then again maybe not.

 

[craig23]

RE: Restricted Womas

you cant just maintain 2 of any species on a restriced list on a recreational licence. Its only certain species you can. I have read it before either on the QLD web site or the info they send you with your licence. I cant remember it off the top of my head, but if you read everything you are suppose to it tells you. Im pretty sure it includes all of the restricted pythons and one mildly venomous elapid, However im sure you are only allowed 2 restricted animals on a recreational licence, not 2 of each allowed species. 2 in total. Dont quote me.

You have to meet specific criteria to apply for a restricted licence. You cant just breed you two womas then upgrade. When i got my QLD restricted Licence I needed min 12 months experience on a recreational licence and 2 referances from restricted licence holders explaining they have seen me demonstrate sufficient knowlege and handeling skills with venomous snakes. They also like to see a membership of a herpetological society. It is all at there descretion so just because you meet the minimum requirements doesnt mean you will get it. The more supporting documents and evidence you can supply the better to prove you know your stuff.

Everyone seems to be calling different departments and asking questions. The reality is the only way to know for sure is to go online and read the regs. OR call the licencing department in ann st and talk to someone there. However i still think read it for yourself then you know. Its not a rangers job or a front desk persons job to know indepth all the conditions of all the licences around...... so you are bound to get wrong info, or there interpretation what can be wrong. Ill try and find all the right sites and post them for QLD, but i mean i had no problems finding them in the begining and understanding them.

 

[craig23]

RE: Restricted Womas

A quote that might help

Applicants for a wildlife recreational licence for restricted or international animals also need to meet legal requirements before they can be issued with a licence. These include experience handling venomous reptiles, handling rare and threatened species and writing scientific papers on restricted reptiles. To determine if you meet these legal requirements, contact the EcoAccess Customer Service Unit on 1300 368 326 or your local Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service office

.
I dont have acrobat on this PC so i cant be sure if this is the correct link, but sounds good.

http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publicati...ons_on_keeping_of_reptiles_and_amphibians.pdf

Geckodan, item 7 on your list has been answered many times on this forum is regards to keeping species not on the list. You can apply to have it added to the list, or you cant keep it.

A restricted licence covers all species on the restricted list, so you MUST have venomous reptile experience to get a restricted licence as it gives you the ability to keep them. There is no "half" restricted licence that will allow you to keep restricted pythons and geckos but not venomous.l

Hope the link helps

 

[Retic]

RE: Restricted Womas

I have no problem understanding rules and regs but that wasn't what this was about specifically. I was told absolutely definitely that someone with a recreational licence can NOW keep unlimited womas because it had specifically been changed. Now if that is not the case then there are a few people that have been dropped in it by bad advice from NPWS.
If I have to get a restricted licence then that's what I will do but I have been told I don't have to.
When a non existent list doesn't name specific species how are we supposed to know what is and what isn't on it ?

 

[craig23]

RE: Restricted Womas

boa, i just called head of licencening for you in brisbane. As everything stands today, You can still only keep 2 womas on a recreational permit without specialist endorcement. Generally speaking you can breed those 2 womas and they will be happy if all attempts are made to dispose of the babies ASAP once hatched. HOWEVER if you were to breed them a second or third time, they would probably call you and say you really need a specialist licence. From the horses mouth.
took me 20 seconds

I dont know who at NPWS confirmed that they were not on a restricted licence anymore, but apparently that is not true at this time. A list of species can be posted to you if you ask on the EcoAccess number.

 

[Retic]

RE: Restricted Womas

Thanks Craig, I have just done that myself and although I got basically the same answer I was told that I could not breed them without a restricted licence !! I think that it goes to show how it is possible to get conflicting information from seemingly the same source.
I will apply for my restricted licence today even though I was told it wasn't necessary, I'm getting a headache

The thing that is the most confusing about all this is not that the same department gives conflicting advice but the fact that although they are considered rare and/or threatened and are happy for us to keep a couple of them they are trying to discourage people from breeding them ?

 

[craig23]

RE: Restricted Womas

Yeah i dont know why that is really, sure they do have a reason, it might simply be the fact that if you are keeping and breeding them, you are practising the priveledges of a specialist licence, so they prefer you to have one. The reason you are allowed to keep 2 rare animals on a recreational licence it so you can gain some of the experience needed to apply for your specialist. I guess thats the only reason, not to be breeding and selling them.

As far as breeding them on the recreational licence goes, you are not suppose to, but he said accidental breeding etc will happen, specially if they are housed together. So you wont get introuble as long as you dispose of the babies ASAP. But yeah if it happens again they will be telling you to get a restricted. Its not that its illegal to breed them, its just that if you are your taking advantage of the system i guess

 

[geckodan]

RE: Restricted Womas

Hi Boa , I have just got off the phone from Veran Hansen, Senior ranger in charge of Compliance for this area. I will indicate his answer to each question. Craig, this unfortunately disagrees with some of your answers.

1. It is my understanding that in addition to those listed species in the schedule that a reptile is considered as “restricted” if it fits into the criteria of being ”rare and endangered in QLD in the wild” regardless of its captive status. Is this correct?

A: In addition to those species listed, the following are considered as restricted. Follow this link http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/N/NatureConWilR94.pdf
and look at Schedule 2, pg 19, Sch 3 pg 35, sch 4, pg56. This is the current list of all restricted species.

2. The principal species being discussed is the Woma Python (Aspidites ramsayi). Is this a restricted species in QLD based on that criteria.?

A: Most definately - YES
3. If it is a restricted species, can a recreational licencee maintain two individuals before a restricted licence is required ?.

A: A recreational licence holder may keep 2 restricted individuals without requiring a restricted licence (that is not 2 of each species). It assumed, but not legislated that these would not be venomous species. Verans comments was that he didn't think anybody would be that stupid.

4. If issue 3. is correct, must a recreational licencee apply for a restricted licence once this limit of two is reached e.g a third animal is to be purchased or the previous two animals are to be bred from.?

A: if you wish to keep greater than two individuals then you must apply for endorsement to upgrade to a restricted licence.

5. What criteria is required to be met before an individual will be granted a restricted licence.? How will this criteria differ if the individual wishes to keep a restricted elapid, gecko, skink or pygopod? Is there different criteria for different target species and will the permit be granted conditional to this??

A: there is no set criteria other than age greater than 18 years. Each case is assessed on its merits and the endorsement is then allowed with restrictions specific to that case. For example, if you had kept pythons for 20 years and suddenly applied for an elapid licence you would probably get it if you could demonstrated suitable handling skills. If you had kept a colubrid for 1 year and applied for elapids you would probably not get it granted without sufficient referrees to suggest that you are capable. If you had kept pyhtons for 20 years and requested and upgrade for endangered geckoes you would get it approved but conditional that no elapids would be kept.

6. If a recreational licence holder holding two restricted species wishes to upgrade their licence to a restricted licence (e.g. because their animal has bred) but do not meet the above criteria , what will be the outcome for the animals that they currently keep?

A: If you do not fit the individual criteria to upgrade you will not lose your existing animals. If you currently have 2 womas and wish to upgrade to purchase a 3rd woma you would have it granted conditional to not allow elapids.

7. As the list of elapid snakes in the schedule is not exhaustive of all elapid snakes available in captivity, is it possible for an individual holding a recreational licence to keep an elapid snake species that does not meet the criteria of a restricted species (not on the list and not endangered) e.g. Cacophis spp., Furina spp., Suta spp.. ?

If the elapid species is not on the restricted schedule and is not endangered and therefore on schedule 2,3,4 as above it CAN MOST DEFINATELY be kept by a recreational keeper. This is not advised but is not illegal. Verans answer - "Hadn't thought it would be a problem but we can't stop a rec lincencee doing it"

I hope this helps.
Danny

 

[geckodan]

RE: Restricted Womas

Geckodan, item 7 on your list has been answered many times on this forum is regards to keeping species not on the list. You can apply to have it added to the list, or you cant keep it

Here in QLD there is no need to add anything. If it can be legally obtained it can be kept with the exception of marine turtles and crocs. No questions asked. And Yes, that means we can keep sea snakes as long as they were legally obtained.

 

[craig23]

RE: Restricted Womas

geckodan, i agree... in relation to point 7, i thought you were refering to any species that wasnt on any of the lists... but you where refering to elapids that dont appear on the restricted list.. sorry about that. As for conditional licences i stand corrected. In no legilsation does it mention the existance of a conditional specialist licence that i have read. Including the conditions and limitations of reptile and amhpibian keeping forms and the licencing booklet.. Would be very interesting to see someone get it approved and see if its easy.
At the end of the day, alot of all these issues arnt legislation but guidlines, so legally its up to the ruling of the secretary or head of department for any given case. Like how she said the only legal requirement for a specialist licence is you be 18 or older.... that may be true, but there are guidlines that they EPA follow in approving and assesing applications... so that answer was either here nor there. One such guidline as written on the main licenceing web site is you mush contribute to herpetological knowledge usually in the form of writtin papers, however past experience and talking to licencing department has told me that generally membership of a herp society will suffice this guidline.

it is really annoying when they start quoting the legislation bacause at the end of the day there isnt much legislation. And its like that for a reason, so the EPA/NPWS can make changes easier without new legislation. But it is unhelpful to us unless they are going to point out generally what they are looking for... it is for this reason everyone gets differnt answers to questions.

good job glad everyones questions are answered now, and im hell suprised you got a reply so fast

 

[steve6610]

RE: Restricted Womas

Would be very interesting to see someone get it approved and see if its easy.

hi,
i have a friend who just got a restricted licence so they can breed their womas, so it is possible, to my knowlage it wasn't hard, they have had a normal licence for about 6 years, but never had any snakes apart from pythons, but it is only for womas,

cheers,
steve......

 

[Retic]

RE: Restricted Womas

It certainly isn't hard to get the restricted licence if you have no intention of keeping venomous.
Just pay $150 and fullfil a certain criteria and you have it. It's the venomous that makes it a little more difficult.

 

[geckodan]

RE: Restricted Womas

Hi Boa, I was cleaning out my garden shed on the weekend and bugger me if my full restricted list from NPWS was jammed down between some rubbish (fairly apt place for it to be really). Pm me your address and I'll post a copy to you.

 

[steve6610]

RE: Restricted Womas

hi,
i have a friend who just got a restricted licence so they can breed their womas, so it is possible, to my knowlage it wasn't hard, they have had a normal licence for about 6 years, but never had any snakes apart from pythons, but it is only for womas,

cheers,
steve......

hi,
just a quick update on my last post, i've talked to my friend and it turned out they didn't get their restricted after all, it was approved in brissy but had to be sent for final approval to our local office, and without saying to much, lets just say that the person in charge decided not to approve it, i could say more but as it wasn't me i don't want to say to much, let just say the questions asked by them to my friend had nothing to do with the fact that they had the knowlege to look after them or how long she had been keeping reptiles but more of why they wanted to breed them, as my friend isn't a member here yet, she couldn't comment on this topic, but has watched it and would like you all to know that it isn't that easy to get a restricted licence, ( well not where we live anyway), one last point, one of the questions was about making money from reptiles, how stupid, i ask anybody that have been breeding reptiles for a long time, how many of you only do it for the money, my guess that most of you will answer the same as me, we do it for the love of reptiles and yes, it is good to get a bit of money back, but in the end, the costs of our hobby would in most cases be more then we will ever make by selling our extra hatchlings,
lets hope one day those in charge get with it and start doing what is good for the hobby,
not bad seeing i wasn't going to say much, but i know how much time and money my friend has invested in her pair of womas and how much they were looking forward to having a go at breeding them along with their other pythons......

cheers,
steve.........

 

[geckodan]

RE: Restricted Womas

Hi me again, I just recieve a letter back from John Rice and Leslie Shirreffs from NPWS. These are two steps higher than Veran Hnasen in the pecking order and their response differs somewhat from Vearns reply. I think it is safest to consider their reply as the correct one as it is them who would reprimand Veran for his advice if it was incorrect. It is reproduced here in it entirety. Sorry it is so long winded but I hope my previous posts have not created any confusion.

1. It is my understanding that in addition to those listed species in the schedule that a reptile is considered as “restricted” if it fits into the criteria of being ”rare and endangered in QLD in the wild” regardless of its captive status. Is this correct?
1.A restricted reptile is any reptile that is listed in Schedule 9, Part 5, section 3 of the Nature Conservation Regulation 1994. That includes “all rare or threatened reptiles” (with exclusions for crocodiles and marine turtles). Whether or not the animal is captive does not affect to its status as a restricted reptile.

The “management categories”, consisting of ‘exempt animals’, ‘controlled animals’, ‘commercial animals’, ‘recreational animals’ and ‘restricted animals’ are simply a management overlay to make administration of the Act easier. All the species within these management categories are still “protected animals” under the Act.

Were a person to propose to take a protected reptile from the wild it is the conservation status: that is whether it is ‘presumed extinct’, ‘endangered’, ‘vulnerable’, ‘rare’ or ‘common’ wildlife, that will be of prime importance. However a person would need the appropriate lawful authority to keep and use the animal. That is where the management categories are of importance because it affects the type of licence or permit that the person requires.


2. The principal species being discussed is the Woma Python (Aspidites ramsayi). Is this a restricted species in QLD based on that criterion?
2.The woma python (Aspidites ramsayi) is prescribed as ‘rare wildlife’ under the Nature Conservation Act 1992 and therefore is a restricted reptile.


3. If it is a restricted species, can a recreational licensee maintain two individuals before a restricted licence is required?
3.A person who holds a recreational wildlife licence for reptiles may keep:
o any recreational reptile stated on the licence; and
o up to two restricted reptiles other than a reptile of the family Elapidae, Hydrophiidae or Laticaudidae;


4. If issue 3 is correct, must a recreational licensee apply for a restricted licence once this limit of two is reached e.g. a third animal is to be purchased or the previous two animals are to be bred from?
The definition of “animal” includes a live or dead animal or an animal part and (among other things), “the progeny, larvae, pupae, eggs or genetic or reproductive material of an animal.”

A reptile egg is an animal. That egg counts as an animal for a licence. If a person will have more than two restricted reptiles at any point in time or the person will have a reptile of the family Elapidae, Hydrophiidae or Laticaudidae, the person must have a licence that states the person may keep restricted reptiles. Any person proposing to breed restricted reptiles must have a licence for restricted reptiles.

5. What criteria are required to be met before an individual will be granted a restricted licence? How will these criteria differ if the individual wishes to keep a restricted elapid, gecko, skink or pygopod? Are there different criteria for different target species and will the permit be granted conditional to this?
5.The chief executive may only grant the licence if the chief executive is satisfied that the applicant is an appropriate person to hold the licence. “Appropriate person” is usually taken to mean the person has the appropriate knowledge, character and ability to operate under the licence. There is no exhaustive list of what constitutes an appropriate person.

I will not discuss character at this time. In determining whether a person has the appropriate knowledge and ability, the chief executive must consider all available information. For example:
o information supplied by the applicant;
o any information that the chief executive collects whilst making inquiries about an applicant under the powers stated in the Nature Conservation Act 1992, section 135;
o the advice of a competent government authority; or
o the advice of any other person (such as a referee, scientist, herpetologist).

The application form includes examples of things that may help the chief executive ascertain whether or not a person is an appropriate person for the grant of a licence.

It has been argued that recreational keeping of wildlife contributes to the conservation of wildlife in the wild. Applicants that can demonstrate a clear nexus between their private keeping and use of wildlife and the conservation of wildlife in the wild are can usually obtain a recreational wildlife licence for restricted reptiles, provided they can demonstrate that they have appropriate knowledge and ability to handle venomous reptiles.

It is possible for a person to get a recreational wildlife licence to keep particular restricted wildlife, such as pythons, pygopids, geckoes and skinks. That being the case, the applicant still needs to demonstrate that they are an appropriate person to conduct activities under the licence. However if having an ability to handle venomous reptile is not relevant for the licence, the person does not need to demonstrate that they can handle venomous species.


6. If a recreational licence holder holding two restricted species wishes to upgrade their licence to a restricted licence (e.g. because their animal has bred) but do not meet the above criteria, what will be the outcome for the animals that they currently keep?
6.It is up to the licence holder to ensure that the wildlife does not breed. Since these animals are being kept outside the terms of the licence, they are being kept illegally and cannot be sold or given away to another person. However if this does occur and the person cannot get a licence for restricted reptiles, the person should contact their local QPWS office to arrange disposal of the animals.

Animals that the EPA/QPWS obtain that cannot be returned to the wild (such as captive bred animals) are usually offered to a zoological institution through the Queensland Species Management Program.

The person will need to sign a form acknowledging that they have surrendered the animals.


7. As the list of elapid snakes in the schedule is not exhaustive of all elapid snakes available in captivity, is it possible for an individual holding a recreational licence to keep an elapid snake species that does not meet the criteria of a restricted species (not on the list and not endangered) e.g. Cacophis spp., Furina spp., Suta spp.?
A person who holds a recreational wildlife licence cannot keep a reptile of the family Elapidae, Hydrophiidae or Laticaudidae unless the licence is issued specifically for restricted species.

 

[Retic]

Latest update is that I have my restricted license now which has no restrictions, if that makes sense ? I gave them a couple of good references from longterm friends and breeders and it was pretty easy, oh that and $153 of course.
Can't say I really want any venomous but maybe one day an adder or two.

 

[geckodan]

long live the unconditional conditional licence. AAAH, only in QLD