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Pythoninfinite
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There would be many people unhappy about the gouging of funds via the licensing system.
Jamie.
Jamie.
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
I don't know Jahan
It is an interesting question. If for instance we are talking about Nat Parks sponsoring these breeding initiatives for just threatened species - then I would hope/think that people would be willing to pay what would amount to a "Conservation Levy" which would be a fund that would be used to advance conservation efforts for other threatened species. Even if all of this fund went into the Parks admin systems I would see this as being OK provided that the return on the money was Parks being proactive in supporting the production of threatened species to go out into the community into private (or company) hands. It could be that parks insist that the producing company do a little on site test to gauge the ability and or commitment of a prospective new owners of an animal. This could involve showing proof of an existing license to keep wildlife. All this depends on the species of course. Because this whole deal is aimed at conservation of threatened species, such a process would only apply to acquisition of what I call Target Species. These are those animals which are suitable for captive living, are in need of conservation intervention and are desirable/rewarding to keep. Permits to keep and breed Target Species would not be given out willie nillie. I could see both the production company and Parks working in tandem to issue the permits to keep for new owners.
These are just ideas mind!
That is all
Slickturtle
It is an interesting question. If for instance we are talking about Nat Parks sponsoring these breeding initiatives for just threatened species - then I would hope/think that people would be willing to pay what would amount to a "Conservation Levy" which would be a fund that would be used to advance conservation efforts for other threatened species. Even if all of this fund went into the Parks admin systems I would see this as being OK provided that the return on the money was Parks being proactive in supporting the production of threatened species to go out into the community into private (or company) hands. It could be that parks insist that the producing company do a little on site test to gauge the ability and or commitment of a prospective new owners of an animal. This could involve showing proof of an existing license to keep wildlife. All this depends on the species of course. Because this whole deal is aimed at conservation of threatened species, such a process would only apply to acquisition of what I call Target Species. These are those animals which are suitable for captive living, are in need of conservation intervention and are desirable/rewarding to keep. Permits to keep and breed Target Species would not be given out willie nillie. I could see both the production company and Parks working in tandem to issue the permits to keep for new owners.
These are just ideas mind!
That is all
Slickturtle
longirostris
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The ideas being generated by this thread regarding captive breeding programs are really exciting and would be fantastic if we could make them happen.
I am not trying to be a stick in the mud but there are some serious "barriers to entry" so to speak of before anything like this sort of thing could possibly happen.
In my view the greatest of these barriers is the attitude of regulatory authorities and professionally qualified researchers and academics towards priivate keepers.
I have been in contact with several government and quasi government institutions over the years trying to gain access to progeny of wild caught animals (dragons in particular) with absolutely no success. Why, because I am a private keeper.
It seems that large numbers of captive breed progeny held by these institutions are best left to die out rather then be released to those of us who are private keepers. The problem stems from the authorities lack of foresight or perhaps just straight bloody mindedness that private keepers are not capable or suitable in being allowed access to animals that are already in captivity and held by these government institutions.
I can think of several species of dragon lizards that I have tried to gain access to in the last 5 years that would have been great candidates for private enthusiasts collections. Non of these species had any considerable conservation status although one or two could be regarded as not common in their range. They just were not or are not available to the private herpetocultural enthusiast. In each case I was pretty much given the cold shoulder or had the conditions of the original collect permit relayed to me which prohibited the sale of any progeny to private keepers. And, I repeat, these animals are already in captivity for goodness sake. How ridiculous can you get.
I am sorry and do not want to rain on the parade but there are some really big issues and egos that need to be conquered before you can start to get some runs on the board with this project.
Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to see this happen. But I really think we need to get some highly respected people like maybe Rick Shine, Hal Cogger, John Weigel, Gavin Bedford and others to become part of a united voice or lobby group who may see the merit of this arguement and more importantly, who would support the release of captive bred progeny to private enthusiasts.
I am told that an organisation already exists under the auspices of the Aquariums Zoos and Wildlife parks association that actually does discuss and make recommendations to various governments on policy relating to this very topic. I am also told some very high profile and highly regarded individuals who have had the opportunity to assist with the release of additional species to the private sector have been the most vocal in opposing said release to private individuals.
So what hope or chance do we realistically expect to have with a project such as the oenpelli python when these sorts of barriers exist. I would be happy to participate in any way I could as I see this as a massive issue for the future of herpetoculture in this country.
I am not trying to be a stick in the mud but there are some serious "barriers to entry" so to speak of before anything like this sort of thing could possibly happen.
In my view the greatest of these barriers is the attitude of regulatory authorities and professionally qualified researchers and academics towards priivate keepers.
I have been in contact with several government and quasi government institutions over the years trying to gain access to progeny of wild caught animals (dragons in particular) with absolutely no success. Why, because I am a private keeper.
It seems that large numbers of captive breed progeny held by these institutions are best left to die out rather then be released to those of us who are private keepers. The problem stems from the authorities lack of foresight or perhaps just straight bloody mindedness that private keepers are not capable or suitable in being allowed access to animals that are already in captivity and held by these government institutions.
I can think of several species of dragon lizards that I have tried to gain access to in the last 5 years that would have been great candidates for private enthusiasts collections. Non of these species had any considerable conservation status although one or two could be regarded as not common in their range. They just were not or are not available to the private herpetocultural enthusiast. In each case I was pretty much given the cold shoulder or had the conditions of the original collect permit relayed to me which prohibited the sale of any progeny to private keepers. And, I repeat, these animals are already in captivity for goodness sake. How ridiculous can you get.
I am sorry and do not want to rain on the parade but there are some really big issues and egos that need to be conquered before you can start to get some runs on the board with this project.
Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to see this happen. But I really think we need to get some highly respected people like maybe Rick Shine, Hal Cogger, John Weigel, Gavin Bedford and others to become part of a united voice or lobby group who may see the merit of this arguement and more importantly, who would support the release of captive bred progeny to private enthusiasts.
I am told that an organisation already exists under the auspices of the Aquariums Zoos and Wildlife parks association that actually does discuss and make recommendations to various governments on policy relating to this very topic. I am also told some very high profile and highly regarded individuals who have had the opportunity to assist with the release of additional species to the private sector have been the most vocal in opposing said release to private individuals.
So what hope or chance do we realistically expect to have with a project such as the oenpelli python when these sorts of barriers exist. I would be happy to participate in any way I could as I see this as a massive issue for the future of herpetoculture in this country.
Taking animals into captivity is certainly going to a hurdle as longirostris pointed out but I think even bigger hurdle will be making the bureaucrats to realise that making money from captive bred wildlife is not a crime. At the moment it is, people have been prosecuted. I was told on several occasions by the QPWS that "no commercialisation of protected fauna will be allowed". That even applies to commercial photography; the QPWS charges slightly over $100.- (I don't have the exact figure) per day for shooting in any NP. I ask - who is the entrepreneur here?
Why is there difference in conservation / commerce approach to snakes and lizards than there is to crocodiles? Once on the brink of extinction, within two decades the species became the best protected reptile in the country AND we have a thriving crocodile industry along the side of it. Why can't we do the same with the rest of reptiles (and other vertebrates)?
Why is there difference in conservation / commerce approach to snakes and lizards than there is to crocodiles? Once on the brink of extinction, within two decades the species became the best protected reptile in the country AND we have a thriving crocodile industry along the side of it. Why can't we do the same with the rest of reptiles (and other vertebrates)?
Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
cement
Very Well-Known Member
JW and ARP have just secured the site for a large Tassie Devil breeding. In fact you can all help by looking at the website www.devilark.com.au
every person that goes on there helps by getting the numbers up somehow.
We have a few really good examples and "precedents" now in place to be able to use as ammunition for this type of plan.
every person that goes on there helps by getting the numbers up somehow.
We have a few really good examples and "precedents" now in place to be able to use as ammunition for this type of plan.
Another "precedent" is the Lake Echam Rainbowfish. Extinct in the wild, a thriving population discovered in aquarium of amateur fish enthusiasts in Victoria. Unfortunately the species cannot re-introduced into the lake (as yet) but it's safe from extinction.
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
Longirostris is absolutely correct in his comments, but I don't think those hurdles come as any surprise to those of us who know the bureucracies. There is also opposition from within our own ranks, and that might just not be apparent in the early stages of any negotiation.
JW succeeds at what he does because he is, above all, persistent. The RSP project was a result of years of lobbying and being ignored by CALM, but not giving up... The Devil Ranch has a similar history - unwilling or unhelpful bureaucracies haven't exactly jumped at the chance to be involved, but if at first you don't succeed, try and try again...
J.
JW succeeds at what he does because he is, above all, persistent. The RSP project was a result of years of lobbying and being ignored by CALM, but not giving up... The Devil Ranch has a similar history - unwilling or unhelpful bureaucracies haven't exactly jumped at the chance to be involved, but if at first you don't succeed, try and try again...
J.
Jonno from ERD
Very Well-Known Member
G'day mate,
Can you PM/Email me about it? From what I understand, nobody has ever been prosecuted for profiting from the sales of captive bred reptiles in QLD?
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
Hello Longirostris
That was a good post. I agree with all you say. You mention Hal Cogger - does anyone know if he is still involved in reptile today? Or has he retired from it completely. Gavin Bedford is right into this sort of thing. You have mentioned reptile people only. This issue is actually about all types of Aussie vertebrates. So the list includes Prof. Mike Archer, Asst. Prof. Mike Tyler, Prof. Gordon Grigg, Dr Rosie Cooney, Dr Linda Tucker and all sorts of other senior academics and biologists. Possibly a hundred or more of people most of us have never heard of but are very influential and knowledgeable. Also that there are the heads of the WWF, Earth Sanctuaries, The Australian Nature Conservancy. the Heads of Landcare and numerous others. But they do not know that we are talking yet and all have to be approached and 'recruited' into supporting us. It is only a little job do be done before lunch.
You are also right to mention ARAZPA (Aust Regional Zoos and Public Aquaria) although they are natural allies I suspect they will be a hard nut to crack. They live in their own world and don't seem to be very willing to look beyond their boundaries. But this will have to change. They are copping a lot of flack from Animal Libbers about welfare issues. ARAZPA seriously need to bolster their conservation credentials and we can help them do that if they pay attention and listen to us.
Thanks for your offer of help Longi, we will come back to you at some stage.
Slick
That was a good post. I agree with all you say. You mention Hal Cogger - does anyone know if he is still involved in reptile today? Or has he retired from it completely. Gavin Bedford is right into this sort of thing. You have mentioned reptile people only. This issue is actually about all types of Aussie vertebrates. So the list includes Prof. Mike Archer, Asst. Prof. Mike Tyler, Prof. Gordon Grigg, Dr Rosie Cooney, Dr Linda Tucker and all sorts of other senior academics and biologists. Possibly a hundred or more of people most of us have never heard of but are very influential and knowledgeable. Also that there are the heads of the WWF, Earth Sanctuaries, The Australian Nature Conservancy. the Heads of Landcare and numerous others. But they do not know that we are talking yet and all have to be approached and 'recruited' into supporting us. It is only a little job do be done before lunch.
You are also right to mention ARAZPA (Aust Regional Zoos and Public Aquaria) although they are natural allies I suspect they will be a hard nut to crack. They live in their own world and don't seem to be very willing to look beyond their boundaries. But this will have to change. They are copping a lot of flack from Animal Libbers about welfare issues. ARAZPA seriously need to bolster their conservation credentials and we can help them do that if they pay attention and listen to us.
Thanks for your offer of help Longi, we will come back to you at some stage.
Slick
Slickturtle
Not so new Member
Hi Water Rat (which species are you by the way - your not a False Water Rat (Xeromys myoides?) If you are, then you are a listed person up here - Vulnerable!!!
It is interesting that you mention crocs. I recently sent a lengthy submission into Parks and Wildlife NT who were calling for public comments on their new Croc Management Plan for the Top End. I wrote in arguing that we should resume broad scale shooting of them from Cairns to Broome. It did not go down very well - especially amongst my wildlifee mates!! But I can make a strong argument for it. I will tell you sometime.
Cheers
It is interesting that you mention crocs. I recently sent a lengthy submission into Parks and Wildlife NT who were calling for public comments on their new Croc Management Plan for the Top End. I wrote in arguing that we should resume broad scale shooting of them from Cairns to Broome. It did not go down very well - especially amongst my wildlifee mates!! But I can make a strong argument for it. I will tell you sometime.
Cheers
Kristy_07
Very Well-Known Member
I'd love to hear your argument on this, too! I tried to argue this same thing a couple of times with TWSers - not a happy ending
Hi Slick,
is Graham Webb still advocating for utilizing wildlife? I think he was one of the first in the firing line long time ago.
Oh yes, kangaroo, crocodile, emu meat on the table? Someone explained to the other day that PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals ... I didn't know that.
I have been described (by Hoser) as Hydromys multifasciata sp. novae - always Vulnerable! Especially on APS.
I think the crocodile situation in NT and Qld is very different and requires different management - we talk about it sometime.
is Graham Webb still advocating for utilizing wildlife? I think he was one of the first in the firing line long time ago.
Oh yes, kangaroo, crocodile, emu meat on the table? Someone explained to the other day that PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals ... I didn't know that.
I have been described (by Hoser) as Hydromys multifasciata sp. novae - always Vulnerable! Especially on APS.
I think the crocodile situation in NT and Qld is very different and requires different management - we talk about it sometime.
Southside Morelia
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I need some clarification please guys, so I can work out how to proceed from here and not hope this is a pipe dream that doesn't come to fruition as IT IS VERY important as we all know!!!
OK, I love this thread as do all that have positively contributed, we all agree on that, correct?
We all have affirmed our dedication and support,correct?
I see this in Business everyday around the boardroom, everybody agrees, but no one wants too "OR" knows how to put their nuts on the chopping board and make it happen...(speaking from a Business perspective and figuratively speaking of course lol!)
I see the latter in this case, we don't know how to proceed, is that a correct assumption?
I'm keen to help promote the cause and make the change, but I don't have the knowledge (in this topic) of the learned contributors that we all have been inspired from so far with this thread.
I am fully psyched and ready, as this thread PLUS the other one today, on the Central Ranges taipan (Oxyuranus temporalis) and what that means to US, as hobbyists, we all need to contribute to make a change!
I will put my hand up to volunteer my time to help organise and lobby the Beauricrats to make a change and enlighten this topic to the public, as I know I can do this through persistance and with the written word as well as possible contacts in the media, IF they are willing to follow the story...which I'm sure I can convince with the help of some friends. Fingers Crossed!!!
I need to know the dedication of us all, My question is:
IS it worth fighting for? Answer: Of course!
I hope to talk with the main contributors to gather the scientific evidence from which i'm lacking, to put forward our case to the people that may be able to help make the difference.
Cheers....
OK, I love this thread as do all that have positively contributed, we all agree on that, correct?
We all have affirmed our dedication and support,correct?
I see this in Business everyday around the boardroom, everybody agrees, but no one wants too "OR" knows how to put their nuts on the chopping board and make it happen...(speaking from a Business perspective and figuratively speaking of course lol!)
I see the latter in this case, we don't know how to proceed, is that a correct assumption?
I'm keen to help promote the cause and make the change, but I don't have the knowledge (in this topic) of the learned contributors that we all have been inspired from so far with this thread.
I am fully psyched and ready, as this thread PLUS the other one today, on the Central Ranges taipan (Oxyuranus temporalis) and what that means to US, as hobbyists, we all need to contribute to make a change!
I will put my hand up to volunteer my time to help organise and lobby the Beauricrats to make a change and enlighten this topic to the public, as I know I can do this through persistance and with the written word as well as possible contacts in the media, IF they are willing to follow the story...which I'm sure I can convince with the help of some friends. Fingers Crossed!!!
I need to know the dedication of us all, My question is:
IS it worth fighting for? Answer: Of course!
I hope to talk with the main contributors to gather the scientific evidence from which i'm lacking, to put forward our case to the people that may be able to help make the difference.
Cheers....
In regards to the Central Ranges Taipan article, the DEC made comment on the importance of discovering more about this species and the environment in which they live. Wouldn't it be handy if the equivalent authority in each state or territory made similar public comments, so they could be held to their word.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
The problem with DEC, Steve, is that they will never readily acknowledge that private keepers have anything to offer herpetology in this country. Along with a couple of others, I spent literally years arond the table at CALM headquaters in Kensington, with the likes of Peter Mawson, Dave Mell, Gordon Wyre and Adrian Coleman, I know what they think of private keepers... I remember Mawson saying at one point that WA would introduce legal keeping of reptiles 'over his dead body'... Some would have said ''whatever it takes...' lol!
The people are still there, wielding the influence they always have, and still insisting that it's their way or the highway. I had a call from a colleague at the WA Museum last night, he was telling me about the new Taipan specimen (he's the one who bet his left nut that the first one described was actually a new Taipan, despite skepticism from others at the WAM). The thinking from these people is elite - private keepers are a problem, not a solution, and the only good work is done by 'scientists' or 'scientific' institutions.
Currently there are literally hundreds of reptiles being caught in the Kimberley and shipped to a 'research facility' in the NT to test (kill) them in anticipation of the arrival of cane toads... but woe betide a private individual who is caught with a critter or two illegally. The hypocrisy is astounding. This is the way it has always been, it is deeply entrenched, even reptile keepers by & large believe the myth that these departments actually have a positive effect on 'conservation' by believing the propaganda they see in the press...
Private keepers don't feature in their thinking at all... at the moment.
The people are still there, wielding the influence they always have, and still insisting that it's their way or the highway. I had a call from a colleague at the WA Museum last night, he was telling me about the new Taipan specimen (he's the one who bet his left nut that the first one described was actually a new Taipan, despite skepticism from others at the WAM). The thinking from these people is elite - private keepers are a problem, not a solution, and the only good work is done by 'scientists' or 'scientific' institutions.
Currently there are literally hundreds of reptiles being caught in the Kimberley and shipped to a 'research facility' in the NT to test (kill) them in anticipation of the arrival of cane toads... but woe betide a private individual who is caught with a critter or two illegally. The hypocrisy is astounding. This is the way it has always been, it is deeply entrenched, even reptile keepers by & large believe the myth that these departments actually have a positive effect on 'conservation' by believing the propaganda they see in the press...
Private keepers don't feature in their thinking at all... at the moment.
benjamind2010
Well-Known Member
It's like the abortion issue and the war on drugs, those two issues come to mind when I think about hypocrisy. The government tells us that we have the right to control our bodies, but then turns around and tells us that we're not allowed to smoke cannabis, which at worst arguably does no more harm than tobacco and certainly far less damaging than alcohol which causes so much of the street violence we hear about in the news. When it comes to hypocrisy this dirty little thing I think is just about the worst example of hypocrisy I can find, and it's enshrined in LAW and championed ad nauseum through it's hollow and pretentious rhetoric.
Legal != Right
Illegal != Wrong
That about sums it up.
Southside Morelia
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Hmmmm, they seem a tad threatened dont they? Must mean that they could feel that their existence needs to be justified...LOL
Again, its a damn shame that these educated people cant contribute, but need to ridicule instead...
Thanks Pythoninfinite...
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