Scientific Names and Classifications

[MPB]

G'day SnakeWrangler,
Just getting back to your last post, that was sort of what I was trying to say, there are just the 2 subspecies of M.spilota - M.s.spilota & M.s.variegata, all the others just being geographic variations of the latter (usually distinguished by varying colors & patterns).
To answer one of your uncertainties though, a species is defined as follows -
" A species consists of all the organisms that can potentially interbreed with one another to produce fertile offspring "
-Taken from 'Biology - The Common Threads' (Australian Academy of Science).
From what I've learnt, subspecies can also produce fertile offspring in some scenarios, and in other scenarios the offspring will be sterile (infertile), eg. if a male of one subspecies breeds with a female of another subspecies they may have fertile female offspring and sterile males, or vice versa.
They won't have fully fertile offspring of both sexes, and are in the first stage of speciation (on their way to becoming seperate species).
When they can no longer produce fertile offspring at all, they are considered seperate species. (A horse can always breed with a donkey although both are seperate species, but the offspring, the mule, is always sterile. You can't get mules from mules!)
Seems weird hey ?
Hope this helped clear up one or two things for ya.
Oh, just to make things more confusing, there are other sub-groups of species called 'incipient' species (or semi-species) but I'm too knackered to go into that right now!
Seeya.

 

[herptrader]

To answer one of your uncertainties though, a species is defined as follows -
" A species consists of all the organisms that can potentially interbreed with one another to produce fertile offspring "
-Taken from 'Biology - The Common Threads' (Australian Academy of Science).

This is way I understood it when studying. I worked with a lass that was trying to create a new species of fruit fly. She had selected for generation after generation based on morphological traits. She would have considered success when the two lines could no longer interbreed and or the offspring of such pairings were not fertile.

I do not know if she ever succeeded but she had been at it for many years. Needless to say there was a complete ban on insecticides anywhere in the building ;-)

[...]

Oh, just to make things more confusing, there are other sub-groups of species called 'incipient' species (or semi-species) but I'm too knackered to go into that right now!
Seeya.

Based on the above it is a pet topic of mine that the terminology "race" which is commonly used for birds and humans too for that matter.

I argue that there are not destinct sub species of carpet pythons for example, but different races. You have your Murry Darling race, your Brisbane Race, your Sydney race (with the destinctive diamond patterning) etc. etc. To me this makes much more sense because of the ease that they have been shown to interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Thanks guys, very interesting stuff.

 

[MPB]

Hey HerpTrader,
Thats pretty awesome stuff, trying to create a new species of something!
I think your idea of 'races' of carpet pythons is a good way to look at it, after all, races of humans are really just geographical variations of the same species.

 

[Hickson]

To answer one of your uncertainties though, a species is defined as follows -
" A species consists of all the organisms that can potentially interbreed with one another to produce fertile offspring "
-Taken from 'Biology - The Common Threads' (Australian Academy of Science).

This is the definition they use in schools. It is simple and easy to understand, which is why it is the most popular definition. One of the curators at Taronga Zoo some time ago did some research into it and discovered that there is at least 32 different ways to define a species.

When they can no longer produce fertile offspring at all, they are considered seperate species. (A horse can always breed with a donkey although both are seperate species, but the offspring, the mule, is always sterile. You can't get mules from mules!)

But there are instances where two different species can produce fertile offspring. Incidentally, about 0.5% of the horse/donkey mixing is fertile.



Hix

 

[herptrader]

LOL - Not trying to create a new species.

The example I have in the back of my is that your average field guide to Australian birds will talk of races of some species, for example magpies. Apparently different races of magpies with different original locations have differening patterns of black and white. I fail to see how carpet pythons from different areas should necessarily be treated any differently because of slightly differing morphology.

Hey HerpTrader,
Thats pretty awesome stuff, trying to create a new species of something!
I think your idea of 'races' of carpet pythons is a good way to look at it, after all, races of humans are really just geographical variations of the same species.

 

[Hickson]

The example I have in the back of my is that your average field guide to Australian birds will talk of races of some species, for example magpies. Apparently different races of magpies with different original locations have differening patterns of black and white. I fail to see how carpet pythons from different areas should necessarily be treated any differently because of slightly differing morphology.

In regards to Magpies, those different races are actually subspecies. There are eight of them. Some books use the word race because it sounds less technical.



Hix

 

[MPB]

I'm obviously out of my depth here, I'll leave now.

 

[MPB]

Nah, I think I'll stay. The more I learn, the better.

 

[herptrader]

So are you suggesting that the terms "race" and " sub species" are interchangable?

What is(are) the definition(s) of sub species?

In regards to Magpies, those different races are actually subspecies. There are eight of them. Some books use the word race because it sounds less technical.



Hix

I might learn something here also. Learning is fun ;-)

 

[PilbaraPythons]

MPB said:
I think your idea of 'races' of carpet pythons is a good way to look at it, after all, races of humans are really just geographical variations of the same species.
MPB
If you lived in Port Hedland for more than a year I don't think that you would believe that anymore despite what science tells you.

 

[womas4me]

roflmao glad you boys live there

 

[PilbaraPythons]

move over womas I coming down to live next to you. Yesterday my 9 year old was attacked by three of the (cannot mention) with a knife used and held to his throat. I went looking for these animals yesterday and can tell you had I found them I would have ended up in jail for life. The scientific name I have for them I won't say as I would also get banned from this site.

 

[womas4me]

really, the pilbara connection coming together. Big land here mate, they can go missing easily and be very hard to find

 

[Hickson]

So are you suggesting that the terms "race" and " sub species" are interchangable?

What is(are) the definition(s) of sub species?

Sorry for the belated reply, I haven't been on for a few days.


Yes, 'race' and 'subspecies' are interchangeable. And in my experience, lots of other words are used interchangeably by the general populace. That's another reason why professionals tend to use latin names a lot in conversation, especially if there is even the possibility of confusion.

The definition of a subspecies? That's even fuzzier than the definition of species!

According to the Dictionary of Zoology:

"subspecies Technically, a race of a species that is allocated a Latin name. The number of races recognized within a species and the allocation of names to them is something of an arbitrary procedure ... there are no clear rules for identifying them as races or subspecies except that they must be :
a) geographically distinct;
b) populations [not just weird individuals] ... and;
c) different to some degree from other geographic populations."

That was published some years ago. These days it is assumed that a subspecies is a population (or populations) that is/are geneticaly distinct from other populations within the same species. Descriptions of subspecies are probably based upon analyses of genetic distinctiveness.

Hope that helps to clear it up a little for you.



Hix