Should I Brumate?

[Iguana]

Hey all,
So as some may know I recently moved my jungle into his 4ftH adult enclosure (about 3 months ago), this enclosure has a CHE and is only on during the day. As opposed to the 24/7 heat pad he had in his last.
After I moved him in he fasted for 2 months, and refused to bask, only coming out at night when the light is off.
He took a smaller than usual meal the other week, but when I tried again 10 days later he showed no interest.
I've been keeping a track of his weight, and during his 2 month fast he only lost 6 grams, (He is around 360 I believe)
So, since brumation is coming up soonish, I was wondering if I should "Brumate" him, I ask this because it is almost like he is in brumation anyways, should I just extend it and start the feeding season fresh?
Also, related question, when bringing him out of brumation, should I just give 24/7 heat, he just doesn't seem to be adjusting all that well to just 12 hour heat.
(also quick disclaimer, he has always been a shy/problem eater, he only used to eat every 10 days max on a good streak)

Any advice is appreciated,
thanks

 

[kittycat17]

Honestly I would get him constantly and comfortably feeding before I decided to brumate him....
though on that note I have a male who has brumated himself every year since he hatched
Yes he refused food in his first winter and was only about 45 gms

Since then he has been a terrible feeder and I can only get him to eat mice, chickens and quail


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[Iguana]

Honestly I would get him constantly and comfortably feeding before I decided to brumate him....
though on that note I have a male who has brumated himself every year since he hatched
Yes he refused food in his first winter and was only about 45 gms

Since then he has been a terrible feeder and I can only get him to eat mice, chickens and quail


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I agree with you, and ideally I would want him to be eating at least every 10 days before I brumate, but in the two or so years i've had him, he's never been a steady feeder.
I think that the brumation was just brought on by the new heating setup more than anything,
did you just let him brumate himself? Then try feeding afterwards?
I may try mice, but he's too small for chicks I suspect.

 

[kittycat17]

I agree with you, and ideally I would want him to be eating at least every 10 days before I brumate, but in the two or so years i've had him, he's never been a steady feeder.
I think that the brumation was just brought on by the new heating setup more than anything,
did you just let him brumate himself? Then try feeding afterwards?
I may try mice, but he's too small for chicks I suspect.

Day old quails are tiny!! Try them! First thing my boy ever struck at!! Haha

I didn't have a choice, I offered food every week with no interest, which can be an expensive exercise
That boy is 2 yrs old now and almost 700gms

 

[Iguana]

@kittycat17
Oh if that's the case I will source some quails ASAP
Yeah I'm just glad my other snake is a garbage disposal so they don't go to waste haha
Very handsome he is, I love the pattern!

 

[kittycat17]

@kittycat17
Oh if that's the case I will source some quails ASAP
Yeah I'm just glad my other snake is a garbage disposal so they don't go to waste haha
Very handsome he is, I love the pattern!

Highly recommend quails!! Hahaaa and yes I have a few garbage disposals to!!
He is one of my favs [emoji173][emoji173]


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[Pauls_Pythons]

Sorry Kitty but I disagree.
In their natural environment they will brumate every year & I see this as an important part of their life cycle. (A time to recharge their battery's so to speak)
Often an annimal that has been a difficult feeder will be a ravenous eater following brumation.

The only animals I don't brumate are those during their 1st winter which are kept on 24/7 heat. Everything older will be cooled in line with seasonal temps.

 

[kittycat17]

Sorry Kitty but I disagree.
In their natural environment they will brumate every year & I see this as an important part of their life cycle. (A time to recharge their battery's so to speak)
Often an annimal that has been a difficult feeder will be a ravenous eater following brumation.

The only animals I don't brumate are those during their 1st winter which are kept on 24/7 heat. Everything older will be cooled in line with seasonal temps.

Oh don't get me wrong I totally agree with brumating animals that are a healthy weight wholeheartedly and agree it is something that should be allowed to happen as it would in the wild!!

I've had the opposite experience with my male, he came out a much worse feeder than he was before... which is a pain...


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[Iguana]

Thanks for the replies, @kittycat17 and @Pauls_Pythons

If I had the choice to brumate him, I most likely would've just because he's almost 3 years old, and he's not super thin.
The problem is I think that he's put himself into brumation early, if that is possible, because all of a sudden he has no night heat, only day, which he isn't used to.
So should I just let him 'brumate' until September?
If so how do I 'wake him up', I was thinking making the heat maybe 18-20 hours?

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

Mate I'm in Victoria and although I don't keep Jungles I would question the need for any snake to need 24/7 heat other than year one.
To give you an example my BHP's are down to 11hrs and dropping on a weekly basis in line with the seasonal change.

 

[Iguana]

Mate I'm in Victoria and although I don't keep Jungles I would question the need for any snake to need 24/7 heat other than year one.
To give you an example my BHP's are down to 11hrs and dropping on a weekly basis in line with the seasonal change.

I'm not planning on keeping him on 24hr heat anymore, he's on 12 hr and has been since he moved into his new enclosure. I agree with you,
My questions are relating not so much to heating, I just don't know if he's a) brumating right now, b) if so how would I "wake him up"?

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

Leave him be. (I would anyway). Simply keep dropping the number of hours you have heat on in line with sunrise/sunset.
If you brumate the animal you will see virtually no loss in weight over winter.

 

[Buggster]

I'm not planning on keeping him on 24hr heat anymore, he's on 12 hr and has been since he moved into his new enclosure. I agree with you,
My questions are relating not so much to heating, I just don't know if he's a) brumating right now, b) if so how would I "wake him up"?

My Stimson's has been off food for about 2 months at this point (another feed attempt tonight- wish me luck) but he'll still be put down for his long nap when winter hits.
He's still very active, sits over his heat during the day and moves around at night. Heating is currently 8am-5pm and I do have to start reducing that soon. That's pretty much how I have it going throughout the rest of the year.


'Waking them up' would involve removing them from wherever you're brumating (mine are going in styrofoam insulated tubs in the basement), and leaving them for 24hrs at room temp in their normal tub. After that put the heating back on as per usual and offer food after a day or two.

If he has day heat and hes using it, there is absolutely no way he's brumating. Snakes will seek out areas around the 15-18 degree (celcius) mark to brumate. Anything higher would leave their systems running as per usual and they'd use too much energy. Too much colder and you'd be faced with problems such as RI.

Minimal weight loss is to be expected whilst brumating, but this should be only from moisture loss within the snake, so make sure they have water on offer 24/7 whilst brumating.

 

[Iguana]

Thanks guys, will try one more feed before I officially brumate him.

@Buggster Good luck haha, mine has been the same.
Thanks for explaining that! I won't be taking away all the heat, but probably reducing it to a few hours in the evening, since the house gets insanely cold.

He isn't using the day heat, at all haha, he just doesn't want to bask during the day like normal snakes. He only comes out at night by which point the lights are off. He just stays in the cool hide down the bottom all day, but he still somewhat active I suppose...

Thanks for the water tip, will do!

 

[Buggster]

Thanks guys, will try one more feed before I officially brumate him.

@Buggster Good luck haha, mine has been the same.
Thanks for explaining that! I won't be taking away all the heat, but probably reducing it to a few hours in the evening, since the house gets insanely cold.

He isn't using the day heat, at all haha, he just doesn't want to bask during the day like normal snakes. He only comes out at night by which point the lights are off. He just stays in the cool hide down the bottom all day, but he still somewhat active I suppose...

Thanks for the water tip, will do!

With brumation, you're either 100% in or 100% out. Continuing to offer heat during brumation could make your snake very ill, or could potentially be fatal.

I've said this 100 times, and I'll say it again. Unless you're watching your snake 24 hrs a day, you don't know what they're doing.
Your snake might be happy with only an hour or two of heat a day and you just happen to miss them.

Out of interest, what heat source are you offering?

 

[Iguana]

With brumation, you're either 100% in or 100% out. Continuing to offer heat during brumation could make your snake very ill, or could potentially be fatal.

I've said this 100 times, and I'll say it again. Unless you're watching your snake 24 hrs a day, you don't know what they're doing.
Your snake might be happy with only an hour or two of heat a day and you just happen to miss them.

Out of interest, what heat source are you offering?

Don't get wrong i'm 100% in, but from what i've read in "Keeping and Breeding Australian pythons"By Mike Swan, to brumate a Diamond python, you reduce heat down to 2 hours with no feed. I know they are different species (Subspecies?) but surely Jungles would need some heat? Especially since they come from the warm tropics, and I live in Victoria. I was only planning on offering a couple hours in the afternoon to make sure the enclosure doesn't drop too much+ to mimic possible warm sun during the day.

And yeah I understand what you mean, there is no way I could know what he's doing all day, but I have a very strong suspicion that he doesn't bask during the day. Of course as you said I could be wrong, it's just based on what I've observed.

I have a CHE, which gets the top part of the enclosure to around 30-32 degrees, and the bottom half to maybe 23-24.

 

[Buggster]

Don't get wrong i'm 100% in, but from what i've read in "Keeping and Breeding Australian pythons"By Mike Swan, to brumate a Diamond python, you reduce heat down to 2 hours with no feed. I know they are different species (Subspecies?) but surely Jungles would need some heat? Especially since they come from the warm tropics, and I live in Victoria. I was only planning on offering a couple hours in the afternoon to make sure the enclosure doesn't drop too much+ to mimic possible warm sun during the day.

And yeah I understand what you mean, there is no way I could know what he's doing all day, but I have a very strong suspicion that he doesn't bask during the day. Of course as you said I could be wrong, it's just based on what I've observed.

I have a CHE, which gets the top part of the enclosure to around 30-32 degrees, and the bottom half to maybe 23-24.

Personally I would disagree with Diamonds needing any heating over winter. They're the most southern Python in the world, and it gets bloody cold where they live in the wild.
My diamond is on 10am-4pm heat at the moment. Not brumating him this year as he's new, but next year those hours are going down.

There 'hotspot' also hangs around 29-30 degrees and they need a cold area to retreat to.

Not 100% sure on the care of Jungles, but very different from a Diamond in terms of heating.

Perhaps the book has theorised that since wild Diamonds do come out to bask on sunny days during their brumation that it should be offered? I'd tend to disagree, and even then this 'hotspot' wouldn't be very hot at all if you're trying to mimic Aussie winters. You would very rarely get a winter day over 23ish, so I don't expect they would need a hotspot.
Most would agree that having them in a 100% controlled environment is he safest route.

Is there a hide underneath the hotspot? He might just be very shy and unwilling to bask out in the open.
Pet shops sell little bird breeding boxes which I find are perfect hides for arboreal snakes. You can attach them (suction cups or you could get a bit creative with sticks/vine) where the snake would be able to hide off the ground and under the heat.

Males may come out of brumation worse feeders as they went in as coming out of brumation is a cue for the male to go crazy to find a female. Eventually they will settle down and realise just how hungry they are and start to smash their food again.
A snake in good condition could go for up to 6+ months without a meal. 3 months over winter and a month give or take on either side of that won't hurt them at all!
Obviously if your snakes does deteriorate and looses considerable condition and refuses food, it's a good time to get them checked by a vet just in case there is some underlying issue. A healthy animal simply won't starve itself!

 

[Iguana]

Thanks Buggster,
He does have a hotspot of 29-31 degrees, it's on from 8-12, will be reduced 9-11 in winter.
I'm just going off what I read on these forums and what I read in the book, I'd like to hear how your's gets on in the winter though, see if there is any differences!

Jungles just need longer heat, the temp is the same but it's on longer. Also (Debatable) higher humidity. I know some people give 24hr heat but I tried cutting down to 12hr and he isn't too keen.

I agree with your hypothesis, but I think that it should be offered anyway, if just for a couple hours. They absorb heat pretty well with those dark colors, I wouldn't be surprised if they got upto 25-30C with the winter sun in the wild.

There is a hide underneath the hotspot, but because its a 4FT high the heat doesn't really reach down that far. I suspect that him being shy is exactly why he won't bask, he's very timid!
Thank you for that idea, I will go buy some ASAP

I'm not 100% if the jungle is male or female, he is a suspected male but nowhere near breeding size, I except my Diamond to got nuts though!
Have been keeping a close eye on his weight and he hasn't lost too much, so I think it's alright for now. Just bad timing, I wish he waited until brumation started,

Thanks for the info