Small Dragon Species

[Bluetongue1]

Thanks Rob_N_Son. The "many" was a downgrading of Rocket's "everyone". I am not sure what Rocket's problem but I am sure it's not me...

Scott,
I kept small Jackies and Mountain Dragons together as a kid. I also had several Tawny Dragons and they did quite well with Jackies. The other two rock dragon species are very similar to the Tawny, which is why I included them. Nobbi and Burns used to be included as Jackies, so again very similar. The only one I have no personal experience of is the Tommy Roundhead.

You are quite right in that they should not be mixed willy nilly. The list was merely possible. There are obviuos limitations on numbers accoding to the size of the enclosure. If you add an arbreal species then more branches would be needed. If adding Mountain Dragons, two or more leafy clumps for them to retreat into. It is also critical to watch as they are settling in and to check your animals to ensure there are no signs of inter-species aggression. At the same time you need to be looking for any behavioural changes that would indicate stress. I had intended to make these points earlier but I got side-tracked.

 

[jordo]

I haven't kept either of the dragons but I'd also advise against keeping them together, dragons are territorial. As I said no experience what so ever from me but I suspect it would just be a matter of time - and definitely not sustainable once the mountain dragons growth plateaus out and the jacky keeps getting bigger.

But with an appropriately sized cage set up just right you might be able to get them to live with thicktails, I can't see agression from either of those species being problems, but beardies will eat ANYTHING they can fit in their mouth.

What substrate are your thickies on? I can think of better matches for Sandswimmers but not ones you have.

I wouldn't suggest keeping sandswimmers with anything. They can go on fine for a while and then suddenly the hormones get going and it's all over. A soft skinned gecko wouldn't stand a chance, sandswimmers are brutal if they put their minds to it. Again, I'm sure there are people that have done it with no problems but as far as aggressive territorial reptiles go sandswimmers are up there at the top in my books.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Jordo,
That is a wise way to look at it if you do not know. What you find with some of the smaller dragons, especially the rock dragons, is that they live in a group that has constant visual contact between individuals. Although they will each claim their particular perch in nature, usually well spaced, they do tolerate being brought much closer together in captivity. Part of the key to this is to ensure they each get fed enough. The other key is to provide visual barrier they can sit behind if they want to. Bearded Dragons are probably the worst for being territorial. I will also say that looking after small dragons is more challenging that most reptiles.

In this instance, I imagine the OP would be looking at adding a pair of an additional species or two, at the most. He will need to accept the limitations the size of the enclosure puts on numbers and size of occupants. I personally would add a couple of Jackies and a pair of water skinks.

I know nothing about keeping sand swimmers other than they are very active. I didn’t keep mine long enough to learn – gave it someone who did know.

Blue

 

[Revell13]

I'll have to upload a more recent picture of my enclosure, Blue, I cant thank you enough, you are a wealth of knowledge and APS would be poorer without you.

Rob_N_Son, i agree 100%

Disintegratus, I got these two Jackys off a bloke near Mt Druitt in Sydney, he told me they were Andrew Camilirie stock originally and was selling them because he was never at home during the day, so it looks like Camo's Reptiles may have some this breeding season.

 

[disintegratus]

Lovely. I think I'm going to have to suck it up and freight them. Having worked for a freight company for 4 and a half years, I've been very hesitant to get live animals freighted.

 

[Revell13]

Your in Melbourne right? Doesn't amazingamazon have some? I've been thinking about saving some dollars and road tripping it down there from Wollongong for a weekend just to buy herps...

 

[Jaws07]

Your in Melbourne right? Doesn't amazingamazon have some? I've been thinking about saving some dollars and road tripping it down there from Wollongong for a weekend just to buy herps...

AA did get some in a few days ago, they are gone now though, as I understand.

 

[Revell13]

See if you can be put on a waiting list for them, there are obviously reptiles being moved through Melbourne...

 

[longirostris]

Good morning to you all,

most of what is being discussed is quite relevant, and in most cases works provided the particular provisos such as making sure there is enough food, hiding spots, size equality etc.

In my opinion though Scott is right and the best method for keeping dragons is seperate the species and even keep the males apart and the smaller the groups the better

 

[eipper]

+1 here Mark

My feeling is that this person wants more species than they can adequately house in the space they have and as a result want to combine species to save space. If housed and fed correctly the water dragons will be at a size that would enable them to eat both adult Jacky and Mountain dragons within a year. At the same time Jacky dragons would be able to eat mountain dragons within months. I can only see this ending up in eaten lizards.

I would never put anything else in with Eremascincus they are amazing little predators!

Cheers
scott

 

[longirostris]

Hi Scott, Agree with your comments. I guess we all learn the hard way. I have seen people house similar sized dragons of different species together and wonder why one or 2 of them go missing every now and then. A classic example of this was a mate who had most of his collection housed outdoors but had a couple of enclosures inside. Because he had to generate his own electricity he could not have any more then the one or 2 enclosures, long story short, he had Painteds and Canegrass dragons in the same cage whilst waiting for paperwork so he could ship them to me. Turns out that the Canegrass I got in the shipment were down were down on what I was expecting.

My mate had no idea what had happened but what was sent was all he could find in the cage when it came time to pack and ship the animals to me. Twenty four hours after my animals arrived, one of the big male Painteds regurgitated a partially digested Canegrass dragon. I kid you not, I could not believe it myself yet there it was.

Moral to the story for me, firstly dont mix species and secondly as I have said in the previous post, one or 2 animals per cage is best, and always keep males in seperate cages. I have over 250 small dragons spread over 30 species housed in 150 cages. It is the only way to ensure optimum growth for youngsters and quality of life for subadults and adults. You can always introduce a male into a controlled situation if you want to stimulate breeding behaviour. But I would not recomment leaving males of the same species together for long periods because one will become dominant and the other will over time loose condition, become emaciated and if left unattended will eventually die.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Size and growth, which will limit the time period for which the suggested arrangement will be viable, was highlighted in the second post by Geckophotograper. I can understand why the OP wants a mixed collection given the size (and nature) of the enclosure and its location. I would want as much variety as I could have if it were me in similar circumstances.

Mixed collections are problematic but not impossible. There is a risk in putting any two reptiles together in one cage. What we should be doing here is helping the OP to minimise the risks of a small mixed collection, rather than throwing it in the too hard basket and telling him to house them separately. And should he ultimately end up with an eaten lizard, it will be a lesson learned. If lizards did not eat other lizards in nature, it would not be a challenge.

The number of lizards that can be kept in total is a function of the size of the lizards and the size of the micro-habitat available to them within the enclosure. This presumes that the suggested safeguards are put into place to minimise the risk of aggression and predation. This number will be reduced as the size disparity between certain species warrants the removal of one or the other. In order to maintain maximum diversity the OP might decide to exchange larger animals for smaller individuals of the same species. Whether he does or not is not relevant to the current question. He has been made aware from very early on that the arrangement he is seeking will have a limited life span. If he wants to go ahead with it, why can't we offer assistance rather than providing arguments against?

Blue

 

[longirostris]

hello to you to Bluetongue 1. I am not around much these days so it is always nice to get on with something to contribute. I agree with your comments also and have no problem with your arguement. All I woud say is that it is my experience that the best laid plans of mice and men always come to grief as the old saying sort of goes.

Even diligent keepers sometimes miss the warning signs, such as a dominating animal causing stress to another, but again as you quite rightly point out if people do not have a go at this sort of thing then nothing is learned and who knows, the person who started the thread may very well end up with a perfectly happy group of animals. Another old saying I guess applies here as well, "nothing ventured nothing gained"

 

[Revell13]

I take great heart in you saying "nothing ventured nothing gained" Longirostris, as your's and Bluetounge1's input is highly valuable.
In regards to the water dragons, they will be staying with me for one year only, then going into my outdoor enclosure. The habitat is in my bedroom, and as a single, uni occupied male who has almost no social life, I will be able to watch them for a good deal of time throughout the day.
There is currently 1 eastern water skink (suspect-female), 1 black-soil (pygmy) bearded dragon (sex unknown) and two jacky's (M/F pair). In saying this, there is also an excess of crickets in the enclosure, and everyone in the enclosure at the moment is the same size. I am monitoring the situation daily to ensure there is no picking or biting between anyone.

I am able to have an excess of crickets in this particular enclosure because the water source has cricket eating fish (platties, paradise fish, guppies, catfish, tetras, barbs, sharks and suckers) and because, due to the size of the enclosure, it is not always easy for a dragon to catch said cricket. However in saying that, easier to catch and eat a smaller cricket than to tackle a similar sized dragon.

I understand the risks, I can tell you all as fact that the crickets are sending me broke as fish food (lol) and ill keep everyone updated on how it goes.

- - - Updated - - -

And I was ment to take new photo's of the enclosure today and completely forgot, I'll try to remember for tomorrow, I'm psyched at how it looks at the moment.

 

[GeckoJosh]

I take great heart in you saying "nothing ventured nothing gained" Longirostris, as your's and Bluetounge1's input is highly valuable.
In regards to the water dragons, they will be staying with me for one year only, then going into my outdoor enclosure. The habitat is in my bedroom, and as a single, uni occupied male who has almost no social life, I will be able to watch them for a good deal of time throughout the day.
There is currently 1 eastern water skink (suspect-female), 1 black-soil (pygmy) bearded dragon (sex unknown) and two jacky's (M/F pair). In saying this, there is also an excess of crickets in the enclosure, and everyone in the enclosure at the moment is the same size. I am monitoring the situation daily to ensure there is no picking or biting between anyone.

I am able to have an excess of crickets in this particular enclosure because the water source has cricket eating fish (platties, paradise fish, guppies, catfish, tetras, barbs, sharks and suckers) and because, due to the size of the enclosure, it is not always easy for a dragon to catch said cricket. However in saying that, easier to catch and eat a smaller cricket than to tackle a similar sized dragon.

I understand the risks, I can tell you all as fact that the crickets are sending me broke as fish food (lol) and ill keep everyone updated on how it goes.

- - - Updated - - -

And I was ment to take new photo's of the enclosure today and completely forgot, I'll try to remember for tomorrow, I'm psyched at how it looks at the moment.

How have you managed to get your hands on so many local species?

 

[Revell13]

The Jacky's I bought of a bloke in Mt Druitt 2 weeks ago, he told me he's working full time + Uni and doesnt get to care for them enough, they are def captive born and bred, very handleable, the Eastern Water Skink was from a bloke (who will remain unnamed but stay away from him, he's a dirtbag) in Hoxton Park, and the black soil bearded was given to me last night as part of the IRS ballot system, he was unwanted and I'm taking him in.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, water dragons (now in outdoor enclosure) from same dirtbag in Hoxton Park - I can only say I've learn't my lesson there, new ones im expecting soon are still eggs

And it seams no matter how many times I see your profile pic, I have to smile, such a great shot of a gecko looking happy

 

[GeckoJosh]

The Jacky's I bought of a bloke in Mt Druitt 2 weeks ago, he told me he's working full time + Uni and doesnt get to care for them enough, they are def captive born and bred, very handleable, the Eastern Water Skink was from a bloke (who will remain unnamed but stay away from him, he's a dirtbag) in Hoxton Park, and the black soil bearded was given to me last night as part of the IRS ballot system, he was unwanted and I'm taking him in.

Ah ok cool.
Btw the Hoxton Park skink is 99% chance wild caught, I would be getting it wormed and quarantining it.(you should be quarantining all these lizards for a few months anyway)

 

[Revell13]

I agree, he's a douche. The hoxton park reptiles were all quarantined, wormed, mite sprayed and vet checked before going into their living enclosures.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Hi ya. With that number of mouths to feed and mostly live feeders I am not surprised you don't have a lot of spare time at your disposal.

With small dragons the OP has picked one of the hardest groups to look after in species specific enclosures, let alone a mixed collection. There will undoubtedly be some challenges he will have to meet. As Scott said, you really need to think it trhough first. I agree. You most certainly need to find out as much as one can about each desired species before making any decision.

If it were me, I would restrict the dragon species to one and that would be Mountain Dragons because they are more amenable to being kept a small colony. I would add a couple of Coppertail Skinks and two small Water Skinks. I might also add a couple of Thick-tailed Geckos and/ or a small number of Leseur's Gecko. As a large Water Skink would make a meal of a smaller lizard, those and the EWD would be on the 'swap it for a smaller animal' list once it starts to approach being big enough to help itself to a free meal.

I reackon the old saying that most applies here (and coincidentally is herpetological in nature) is: "Behold the tortoise... it cannot make progress without sticking its neck out".

Blue

PS. As always, a pleasure to chat Rick.

 

[GeckoJosh]

I agree, he's a douche. The hoxton park reptiles were all quarantined, wormed, mite sprayed and vet checked before going into their living enclosures.

Quarantined for how long?