The hobby & conservation

[Pythoninfinite]

Spot on! And this often has a contagious effect on other friends/relatives who surround such a person who is passionate about the animals they keep! Society as a whole, IMHO, lacks awareness, education and a general appreciation of many of our native animals, and I think that's a real shame.

Then there is the flip-side, animals within the hobby kept in sub-standard conditions by keepers! Poorly kept animals in pet shops! Smugglers Etc etc, all because a trade in these animals exists, hence a profitable market.

It'd be interesting to see who'd actually be bothered with it all if there was no money to be made in it (the hobby in general).

I've been into herps for decades, and I doubt very much whether my profits have come anywhere near my costs in that time. I'm probably an average hobbyist with an average number of animals, and despite having a few GTPs and breeding a few clutches in the past few years, the return, even on them, is not exceptional when you look at what the founder stock cost 5-6 years ago. They are worth far less now than they were even 2 years ago, but I'm still a huge fan of the species, and I have always kept any of my snakes primarily for my own enjoyment. If breeding some animals covers some of my costs, then that's a bonus.

Ask even the bigger breeders - Snake Ranch, or Snake Farmer - they'll tell you that it's a tough business to be in, with patchy sales and poor prices, but big ongoing costs for labour, food and energy that can't be deferred. Even for these people, reptiles are only a sideline, the income from which would probably not sustain a family in the long term.

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

I disagree with you on this one Michael. The industry definitely does not need the sales of reptiles to survive!

I didn't say it wouldn't survive, to the contrary, I said "The hobby will never die" but it would suffer. How many people have the skills, room and tools to build cages? How can people living in city units breed mice or rats? Would they spend their hard earned money to buy a $500.- enclosure or two if there were no money coming from sales of reptiles (at least partially)?

 

[moosenoose]

That's fine for "some", but I'm talking about other folk who are flooding into to the hobby to simply try and make a buck. I certainly wasn't tarring everyone with the same brush. Don't you find it surprising how prices in recent times have taken a sharp dive?? GTP's from 10k to 1k (and under) in the last few years, RSP's for the same prices also? Did these people dive into the market at those inflated prices simply because the love of animal? Or to make their money back?? Pretty big gamble if the answer is either of my last two choices! I recall plenty of syndicates with people coughing up fairly large sums to share only a few animals?? :?

 

[Waterrat]

Did these people dive into the market at those inflated prices simply because the love of animal?

Many of those who "invested" in reptiles were old-timers who kept and bred reptiles long before the hobby boom. Just because they saw an opportunity to make a buck doesn't mean they they didn't love the animals or were in the game ONLY for the money. The gamble didn't work out, so be it. My super took a dive couple of years ago, local real estate hit the bottom 10 years ago but life goes on. None of those people who paid big bucks for their snakes scream "I lost my money" (at least I can't hear them), so why to scream at them that they were money grabbers?
When you say "the prices were inflated" - the market and demand set up the prices, there were plenty of enthusiasts willing to pay - were they silly buggers and those who didn't buy were smart? I don't think so.
If you don't like the idea of selling and buying reptiles, just don't sell or buy, simple as that (you may go to heaven)... but don't criticize those who do, that's their business (they go to hell).

How did we end up talking money and flooding the market again, the topic was about conservation. :shock:

 

[MC-Boks]

there has to be someone doing research on this, universities or other institutions? Being such a widespread and devistating problem you would think someone would be persisting

There is other research going on. Meat ants devour cane toads?(Science Alert) (Sydney Uni - cat food and meat ants). Potentially something that can be carried out by "concerned locals" and I dare say more effective than domestos or a cricket bat.

Mick

 

[Wallypod]

i don't know a great deal about this subject so if my comments about are naive and ignorent then please be nice about it.
it seems that most agree that we need to fix the problem rather than the symptom. however wouldn't it make sense to atleast try to keep captive populations with a rich gene pool so that if we cannot fix the problem, then atleast we have enough animals for future generations to enjoy? or even later down the track if worse comes to worse start again?

 

[moosenoose]

Many of those who "invested" in reptiles were old-timers who kept and bred reptiles long before the hobby boom. Just because they saw an opportunity to make a buck doesn't mean they they didn't love the animals or were in the game ONLY for the money. The gamble didn't work out, so be it. My super took a dive couple of years ago, local real estate hit the bottom 10 years ago but life goes on. None of those people who paid big bucks for their snakes scream "I lost my money" (at least I can't hear them), so why to scream at them that they were money grabbers?
When you say "the prices were inflated" - the market and demand set up the prices, there were plenty of enthusiasts willing to pay - were they silly buggers and those who didn't buy were smart? I don't think so.
If you don't like the idea of selling and buying reptiles, just don't sell or buy, simple as that (you may go to heaven)... but don't criticize those who do, that's their business (they go to hell).

How did we end up talking money and flooding the market again, the topic was about conservation. :shock:

You seem a little touchy about it! :lol: The conversation got there because I suggested that the hobby was good for general awareness, but people (newcomers, if that makes more sense to you ) were flooding the market with a view to make a buck, and also keeping some of these animals in substandard conditions because their heart was more in the money and profit side of things, than the animals welfare. Surely not too difficult to understand?? :lol:

And btw, Happy New Year to ya!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

"people (newcomers, if that makes more sense to you ) were flooding the market with a view to make a buck, and also keeping some of these animals in substandard conditions because their heart was more in the money and profit side of things, than the animals welfare"

Your suggestion that newcomers are flooding the market with a view to making a buck seems to imply that they are attempting to make a career out of reptile breeding. I don't think the average 'newcomer' has enough structured thought to think like this... I think they breed their animals simply because they can in most cases... breeding is the logical next step once you've learned to keep a reptile alive - the info is out there in buckets now, and most newcomers have no concept of 'the market', or indeed the hobby as a whole. They haven't watched the evolution of the hobby (industry?) the way many of us 'old-timers' have, they haven't participated in the (literally) years of political wrangling which has allowed us to be where we are now. Any notion that they're going to make much of a buck breeding reptiles will be quickly dispelled unless they can afford to get into the next popular morph at the very ground floor, and even that requires a bit more educated planning than the average newcomer is capable of.

I don't know where the suggestion that, because of your premise that newbies are in it for the money, they keep their animals in substandard conditions, comes from. That seems to be a long bow to draw unless you survey the accommodations of a large number of newcomer, profit driven keepers... Maybe you have and that's what you found, but it certainly isn't my experience. Doesn't have much to do with the conservation side of the hobby, which is the notional reason for this thread.

I do agree with you that community exposure to our wildlife is good for awareness and helps to soften the indifference that people generally have for our native critters, and this is a major failing of our bureaucratic system in most states, especially evident in the Fauna Nazi states like WA. Unless the community is involved at some level, i.e. allowed some participatory responsibilty and engagement with wildlife, the problem of conservation remains one for the bureaucracies to solve... and they're not doing that very well at all... anywhere.

Not all 'hobbyists' have any concern for conservation per se - many are solely and totally preoccuppied with what happens within the boundaries of their own properties, but there is a very large body of deeply involved keepers who would love to be involved in conservation issues, and perhaps even captive breeding of particular species. The debate will go on & on about the value and relative merits of these activities for any species, but they don't ever get the chance to even participate in any discussion about it, because the keys to the conference room are held firmly in the hands of bureaucracies which regard fauna keepers as a major part of the conservation problem...

My view is that anyone interested enough to invest in the knowledge, time and equipment, to keep and breed our native animals, and who demonstrates a knowledge of the significance of what they are doing (this cuts out 90% of keeprs/breeders) should be given an opportunity to contribute to the overall gaining of knowledge of our fauna... for me, this is what it's all about. There is absolutely nothing for the knowledgeable, ethical and resource rich (time, space, money) reptile keepers in this country to aspire to - we are all regarded as one homogenous, messy and troublesome lump - all busily being greedy, hybridising, smuggling, poaching or engaged in other similarly destructive activities with our reptiles.

We can see from the threads here on this site, and other sites, that the inability of new keepers to conceive of and visualise their aninals in a bush environment (bleaching branches, sterile enclosures, the constant worry about 'germs'...) is growing, and creating a big gulf between those who still see a connection between their animals and the bush, and those who only see their animals as an artefact of human activity. They are two defined and quite disparate groups in the same community, and it troubles me that the former group has no way to differentiate itself from the latter. Aspiring to excellence is a pointless exercise for reptile keepers even if they are conservation conscious...

Jamie

 

[Waterrat]

It's easy to understand moosenoose, but what has it got to do with reptile conservation?
I am not touchy, some people (not only you) are obsessed with the money-making concept and just can't get away from it. You're way off the topic, the "making quick bucks" has been done to death in other threads - that's all.
Anyway, happy new year to you and everyone else.

Michael

 

[moosenoose]

Thanks for the response pythoninfinite! Great read!

Micheal, my point is that this hobby does nothing for conservation. It merely restocks the pet trade! What are we conserving? Have you been given special permission or had your stocks checked in such a way as to be allowed to release animals back into the wild?? Does anyone on this site breed animals for that purpose? I'd love to know if there is!

Would the hobby as a whole take a steep dive because people aren't buying these animals? Absolutely! Does places like the Snake Ranch do what it does because it simply wants to breed animals simply for the love of it!? You're kidding yourself if you believe that! Yes, I have no doubt guys like John Weigal absolutely love reptiles, and I dont have a problem with them breeding or selling them, but let's call it what it is, it's not conservation, it's the pet trade. So to answer your main question, I don't believe this hobby does anything for conservation except raise awareness. In my humble opinion of course.

---------- Post added 01-Jan-11 at 10:41 AM ----------

Ps: please don't think I'm having a stab at anyone in this thread. I'm not intending to do that. Just trying to relay an opinion.

Also, I often think whether the hobby is even detrimental to conservation, simply because the awareness created through a ballooning hobby growth has promoted "more" poaching. I'm sure there are a few here who have seen or been offered an animal/s off-license for reduced rates. Or gone to buy something that wasn't on license.

 

[Waterrat]

I totally agree with you on that one. This hobby - 'keeping reptiles' is no different to keeping guinea pigs or aquarium fish. Because I put it up as a question at the first post, I didn't want to express my personal opinion at the same time.

Your last paragraph is an interesting observation, I suppose the more people are in the game, the more chances of poaching but on the other hand, we offset the temptation / need by availability of vast range of species at low prices. No one is going to even consider poaching RSP and many other species any more - that is an achievement we can be proud of. However, there is a downside to this hobby - all the morphing, hybridizing and selective breeding. We are never going to be taken seriously by the wildlife departments because the way they see it, we are converting wildlife into freaky pets. There are some fantastic breeding projects going on out there and I take my hat off to those who are involved but something in the back of my mind is telling me to stay away from it. That's only my perception, probably because I am more interested in reptilian ecology than creating the "unusual". Each to their own.

 

[cement]

"
My view is that anyone interested enough to invest in the knowledge, time and equipment, to keep and breed our native animals, and who demonstrates a knowledge of the significance of what they are doing (this cuts out 90% of keeprs/breeders) should be given an opportunity to contribute to the overall gaining of knowledge of our fauna... for me, this is what it's all about. There is absolutely nothing for the knowledgeable, ethical and resource rich (time, space, money) reptile keepers in this country to aspire to - we are all regarded as one homogenous, messy and troublesome lump - all busily being greedy, hybridising, smuggling, poaching or engaged in other similarly destructive activities with our reptiles.

We can see from the threads here on this site, and other sites, that the inability of new keepers to conceive of and visualise their aninals in a bush environment (bleaching branches, sterile enclosures, the constant worry about 'germs'...) is growing, and creating a big gulf between those who still see a connection between their animals and the bush, and those who only see their animals as an artefact of human activity. They are two defined and quite disparate groups in the same community, and it troubles me that the former group has no way to differentiate itself from the latter. Aspiring to excellence is a pointless exercise for reptile keepers even if they are conservation conscious...

Jamie

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. And I have a firm belief that ALL species whose habitat/existence is under threat should be immediately made secure within captivity.

I have my finger on the pulse of my local herp scene because of the work I do with the local wildlife, and have years of capture and relocation records that i am going through to try and assemble a picture of whats been happening the last few years in this area.

One place to start with for finding guaranteed local native stock is with organisations like the one that i work for. We have wild caught stock in captivity, all legally obtained, usually injured animals that take a long time to heal and hence can't now be returned to the wild because of the length of time in captivity. We use them for training purposes and demonstrations to try and gain awareness.

As far as releasing to rebirth a depleted wild stock goes, I don't see it as a problem as anything earmarked for that, would simply be quarantined before hand.
And if finding people who will just do it for the love is difficult then just take a look at the people who willingly give their time and own resources for these wildlife care organisations. They are full of these exact people, and if trained properly are an untapped resource for exactly this topic.

 

[waruikazi]

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. And I have a firm belief that ALL species whose habitat/existence is under threat should be immediately made secure within captivity.

The thing is but if they are extinct or becoming extinct in the wild anything in captivity is no better than a type in a jar sitting on a museum shelf somewhere. Atleast as far as conservation is concerned.

The number of species that have been reintroduced to an area where they have become extinct succesfully is incredibly low because the threatening process of a species needs to be adressed before there can be any change.

So as far as getting different species into captivity, and increasing genetic diversity blah blah blah. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but the argument that it needs to be done in the name of conservation doesn't really wash with me.

That said, Greg Miles has a very compelling argument on this topic. He calls his idea total extinction insurance (from memory) and does a good job of combining hobbiests and conservation.

 

[Elapidae1]

I totally agree with you on that one. This hobby - 'keeping reptiles' is no different to keeping guinea pigs or aquarium fish. Because I put it up as a question at the first post, I didn't want to express my personal opinion at the same time.

Your last paragraph is an interesting observation, I suppose the more people are in the game, the more chances of poaching but on the other hand, we offset the temptation / need by availability of vast range of species at low prices. No one is going to even consider poaching RSP and many other species any more - that is an achievement we can be proud of. However, there is a downside to this hobby - all the morphing, hybridizing and selective breeding. We are never going to be taken seriously by the wildlife departments because the way they see it, we are converting wildlife into freaky pets. There are some fantastic breeding projects going on out there and I take my hat off to those who are involved but something in the back of my mind is telling me to stay away from it. That's only my perception, probably because I am more interested in reptilian ecology than creating the "unusual". Each to their own.

Poaching and the pet reptile trade live hand in hand with each other, although I enjoy keeping the animals I often wonder at what price to the environment. RSP bred well and prices came down quickly, along with logistical difficulties it's probably no longer cost effective to poach these animals, however the pet trade has definitely created an environment that encourages illegal activity and as a consequence has a detrimental impact on the environment. This impact may not be severe enough to cause extinction but it definitely impacts on population numbers of reptiles and all other animals that inhabit their particular environments. It's also possible that we do not entirely understand the long term impact. It could take decades or even centuries before the extent of damage is fully realized.

 

[gillsy]

Just a note on toad research

TEAM BUFO it's a great read.

 

[Waterrat]

As a matter of interest, could anyone name / list species that you think may need "insurance" in captive breeding for possible re-stocking and state why?
Bear in mind that whilst we know in which tree every f*&%$g koala lives and how many of them there are, we have absolutely zero data on reptile population densities and dynamics. Sad, isn't it!

Leave the oenpelli out of it as that is obviously a target species although we don't know clearly why.

 

[da_donkey]

There are some fantastic breeding projects going on out there and I take my hat off to those who are involved but something in the back of my mind is telling me to stay away from it.

im with you on that WR

 

[Elapidae1]

M oenpelliensis. From what I've readit seems to be the least understood of our pythons, and very difficult to achieve accurate estimations on its numbers in the wild.

 

[waruikazi]

The ones that need saving are the species that no one knows about. There are far more vunerable plants and inverts out there than there are vertabrates. It's the inverts that are at the bottom of the food chain, they are far more important than any lizard or snake to the environmennt.

As a matter of interest, could anyone name / list species that you think may need "insurance" in captive breeding for possible re-stocking and state why?
Bear in mind that whilst we know in which tree every f*&%$g koala lives and how many of them there are, we have absolutely zero data on reptile population densities and dynamics. Sad, isn't it!

Leave the oenpelli out of it as that is obviously a target species although we don't know clearly why.

 

[Waterrat]

Gordo, that's exactly why I asked the question. We seem to me screaming save this and save that by captive breeding but when it comes to identifying which species actually fall into that category, the list is very short. Are we fooling ourselves?
Lets leave plants and inverts out of this, which species of reptiles (except marine turtles) should be on the list and why?