Thoughts on feeding frozen crickets and woodies

[Sdaji]

I've done it, mostly out of novelty when my colonies were too successful and I froze the excess because I couldn't be bothered selling them, and then I'd end up giving them to stuff like Blueys which eat a heap and don't need them, but enjoyed them and would use them up. Actually worked better than live for Blueys. It wouldn't work for things like geckoes but for pigs like Beardies and Blue-tongueds it was no problem.

I'm not sure what the concern about nutrient destruction is - insects are just small animals, highly nutritious and freezing won't damage them dramatically compared to other types of meat. I was looking at frozen insects at the local tonight, they have a fair range including crickets, grasshoppers, silkworm pupae, sago worms, and sometimes I see others like bamboo worms, cicadas, giant water bugs etc. Most get sold in 1kg bags, usually around AU$12-15/kg. Most of them get bought by vendors who fry them and sell them hot and ready to eat (by people). No idea why anyone would think they'd become gooey on being thawed. If you leave them (or any other type of meat) frozen too long they lose moisture and become dry and stale if exposed to air.

Woodies are super easy to produce; they take up very little space, time or money, virtually no smell or sound, and almost impossible to kill. I spent several years breeding them in my bedroom, no hassles. With only a few tubs on top of a single snake enclosure (nice and warm even in winter) I produced not only enough to keep myself supplied but enough to sell to several large lizard breeders and keep them supplied too. I accidentally left a tub of them in the garage on autumn, found them the following summer, they experienced the full exposure of outdoor winter Melbourne winter weather, and were still alive!

...and freezing snails will definitely kill them!

Certainly some vivid imagination went into many of the posts in this thread!

Pretty impressive wheelie bin colony you have, Aussiepride!

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Freezing snails doesn't kill them. Have been doing it for 3 years now.

Snails contain within their bodies and blood a natural anti-freeze agent. It is also in the slimy mucus they produce too.

 

[Sdaji]

I'm puzzled by you saying this. I too have frozen snails, never expected them to live, and never did they live. Animals while can survive being frozen solid are extremely rare, and are mostly confined to fish and arthropods, with the wood frog being well known exception, heavily studied because of its unique ability. Just in case, I spent some time googling the topic just now, and snails/other mollusks aren't known to be able to survive being frozen solid. I'm not sure how you're getting these results. Are you talking about common garden snails (Helix aspersa) or some other type? The only thing I can think of is that maybe you're using a freezer which only barely gets below 0C and either the snails aren't actually getting to 0C, or they're barely getting below it but it's still close enough to 0C to prevent them from freezing solid.

Try getting a regular garden snail and putting it in a regular freezer, and it will indeed quickly die.
[doublepost=1524739698,1524739464][/doublepost]Oh, and I was in the shop again today, and took a look at the frozen insects. They're actually cheaper than I remembered (I usually only buy them cooked, not frozen). They ranged from about $5-$12/kg, mostly around $6. Unfortunately the girl who does most of my cooking is allergic to them, and while I feel like eating them, I'm too lazy to cook them

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Morning mate, I use an old old old 41 litre bar fridge/freezer that my parents were getting rid of. It is in my shed under the work bench, it only has room for an ice cube tray and a couple of Chinese container sized containers which is what I freeze the snails in and it only gets to 0°. From memory the last time I checked my kitchen freezer it was -23° ... I've never put snails in that though... missus would have a fit. Normal garden snails.
[doublepost=1524767263,1524767055][/doublepost]As an experiment, I am going to freeze 2-3 dozen woodies tonight and see how they fare upon thawing. I will offer them to my frogs via tongs (I'll need to wiggle them) if rejected, I'll give them to my turtles.
I would like to see for myself how they hold up after being frozen, whether they maintain their structural integrity or indeed turn to a soggy goopy mess.

 

[Sdaji]

Okay, there's your explanation. 0 degrees C isn't really freezing. Normal things, for example ice-cream, meat, etc, won't freeze at 0 degrees. 0 degrees is the freezing point of water, but everything has a slightly different freezing point. Normal food isn't safe to store at 0 degrees - it doesn't freeze.

If you were to put rats or mice alive into that freezer for a day or two, they would still be alive too. If you put freshly killed rats or mice into a 0 degree C freezer, they wouldn't be frozen.

A 0 degree 'freezer' is more of a fridge than a freezer. The standard freezer temperature is -18 degrees C. If you take the temperature of many household fridges you'll find that many actually operate right on 0 degrees. Being the freezing point of water, and water being a significant part of air, this acts as a relatively stable buffer while holds the temperature at that point.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Yeah all my mice that I breed for snake food are frozen in the big 410 litre Westinghouse. They're solid.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Kev mentioned the freezing of snails before and so I tried a couple in the freezer compartment of the fridge. One was sealed up and the other active. Both were dead when retrieved two days later. So this discussion solves that conundrum. Thanks for that guys.

Pure water freezes at 0oC. However, the addition of a solvent will lower the temperature at which it freezes – a phenomenon known as ‘freezing point depression’. For example, the freezing point of saltwater from the ocean is -2oC. Anti-freeze works on the same principle. The cells and body fluids of living things contain a variety of solutes, so therefore their freezing points are below 0oC.

I am not certain about this statement… “If you were to put rats or mice alive into that freezer for a day or two, they would still be alive too.” Although it is quite possible, it would depends on their raw ability to withstand cold and recover from hypothermia, which does vary with different strains.

The drying effect of fridges and freezers I have always put down to their dry air. This is due to removal of atmosphere moisture through condensation and freezing. In a dry atmosphere water will evaporate from moist objects, but as the water vapour produced is quickly removed there will be a nett loss of moisture from those objects. Cyclic frost-free freezers are probably the worst for drying things out. The temperature is periodically elevated to a point where frozen moisture (frost) is melted and drained off. At these times this allows evaporation from moist objects, so these things eventually dry out. If you have ever kept uncovered ice cubes in one of these freezers and wondered where they disappeared to, now you know.

 

[Sdaji]

Bluetongue: Thanks for repeating that explanation about freezing points

As for 0C killing rodents, sure, it's going to vary according to various factors, but generally speaking you'll need more than a day at 0 to kill them. When I lived on a mountain in Australia, during winter the rat building in my first year there would often sit just above 0 for extended periods - sometimes there would be several days where the temperature wouldn't get above the inside of an average fridge, and at night it would be well below zero. I vividly remember working on them while watching snow falling outside that winter, my hands barely functioning due to the cold, but the rats were bouncing around, doing their thing, and breeding continued along just fine. I remember another time when a friend put some mice into a freezer to kill them (not something I would do or recommend). I was at her home and she asked me to get some out of the freezer. They had spent several days in there, all were alive, they had constructed a nest out of food packaging and helped themselves to a variety of frozen food, they were particularly fond of the peas, and all seemed quite happy. There is a documented case of a colony of rats surviving for multiple generations in a freezer, never experiencing an ambient temperature above zero. Yes, sometimes they will die, but the point is, 0 degrees won't freeze a rodent solid and isn't a reliable way to kill a typical rat or mouse, thus, snails staying alive in those conditions are no more evidence of snails surviving being frozen than mammals - neither can, and the snails supposedly surviving being frozen were never frozen.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

0° (what my little bar freezer is set at) doesn't kill snails. If it did, there would be none in England, Canada, and the more temperate parts of Australia etc. As I already mentioned, snails naturally contain anti-freeze within their bodies. It obviously works up until a certain point which cannot be determined exactly without experimental trials.

 

[Sdaji]

By that definition, humans also contain antifreeze in their bodies.

Many animals survive in climates where the ambient temperature falls below lethal levels. I think being on a reptile forum we are all aware that reptiles die if their body temperature falls to their freezing point (which like snails, is slightly below 0C), yet we find reptiles in areas where the temperature falls well below 0C each and every winter, including places such as England, Canada and the more temperate parts of Australia etc.

By your logic, you can freeze reptiles and reanimate them. Absolutely everything you have said about snails also applies to reptiles, and reptiles would also survive in your "freezer". Are you aware that there are wild reptiles in the places you listed? Are you suggesting that reptiles can also be frozen and reanimated? How are snails different, given they live in the same climates?

Your "freezer" is not really a freezer, and you are not freezing your snails. Put them in an actual normal freezer which actually freezes them and they will indeed die.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Mate, 0 degrees is freezing by mother nature's standards, perhaps not by your freezer's manual.. or your own personal definition. This is NOT an argument, you're just getting overly technical now. It's well documented that slugs and snails contain anti-freeze in their bodies and again, by mother NATURE'S standards, 0 is freezing and snails have evolved/adapted to withstand those conditions comfortably. So by "freezing" my snails to 0 to put them into a state of inactivity until future use is valid whether you want to accept that or not. I've no intentions of putting them in a "regular -20 degree freezer" or a super max chiller at -60 degrees OR liquid nitrogen at -195 degrees for that matter. Nor have I ever mentioned anything about putting reptiles or anything else in a "freezer". 0 is freezing by mother nature's book and snails can survive it with little issue at all, that's all I was saying to anyone who wishes to collect snails when they're plentiful and keep them alive and fresh without having to feed and house them for weeks or months on end.

Just to clarify, turtles would not survive at 0 degrees...
PS. my fridge runs at 4-5 degrees.

Relax.

 

[Sdaji]

Peculiar statement, that a particular temperature is freezing by 'nature's' standards, when countless things in nature do not freeze at 0 degrees, including reptiles, human blood, sea water, etc. Are snails part of nature by the way?

Reptiles will also survive at 0 degrees. By what you are saying, reptiles can also 'be frozen' then 'come back to life'.

You say the existence of snails in places where the temperature hits 0 degrees proves they can survive freezing. Reptiles live in places which get far below 0 degrees. We all (well, you deny it, but most of us) understand that this does not mean reptiles, snails or anything else can necessarily survive a temperature just because it could access it if it wanted to.

You are clearly not freezing your snails, because this literally does kill them. You are merely refrigerating them. This is by definition of the word freezing.

I did not know Mother Nature had published a book. Could you let me know where I could get a copy?

Incidentally, 4-5 degrees is considered inadequate for a fridge by Australian standards. It would be illegal, for example, to store commercial food in such a poorly refrigerated unit.

Whether or not you plan to put snails into an actual freezer is irrelevant. If you do freeze a snail, it dies. Snails have no protection from actually freezing. Like other animals including all reptiles and mammals, they have chemicals in their blood, this changes the freezing point. This does not prevent them from being killed by freezing.

I'm not perturbed, no need to tell me to relax, I just like analysing stuff because I'm a scientist and a nerd, and yes, I also sort of enjoy seeing people dry to dig themselves out of holes rather than just accept they're wrong and move on

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Call it whatever you want. Zero is freezing in my book whether you agree with it or not. Just because you see it differently doesn't make it right or wrong.

Report me for having an illegal fridge. Please. Lol

Good times.

 

[Sdaji]

You can eat rotten food off your own floor and the neighbours' bins for all I care, why would that bother me? I'm just saying that's not normal fridge temperature, and your freezer is not normal freezer temperature, and what happens at those temperatures doesn't represent what will happen in actual normal freezers, and if anyone does put a snail in anything remotely like a normal freezer, it will freeze, and freezing does kill snails.

Zero is freezing for pure water at sea level. Not for snails or reptiles. Yes, you can put reptiles and snails at 0C without killing them (though neither will last very long), because it doesn't freeze them.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

What's "Normal?" You're not normal... 0° is just fine, I'll continue to call it freezing and you can call it whatever you like. Life goes on... even for my frozen snails.

 

[Scutellatus]

Sdaji does have a point.
At least now people can't be misinformed and will know that they can't actually freeze snails in their freezer or they will die.
Best off keeping them in the fridge.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Either way, Blueys and pink tongues are happily going to eat frozen/thawed garden snails, dead or alive. So "freezing" them at -20 or, if you like, refrigerating them at zero makes no difference at all.

Now to quote Frozen...

Let it go, let it go
I am one with the wind and sky
Let it go, let it go
You'll never see me cry
Here I stand and here I'll stay
Let the storm rage on
The cold never bothered me anyway.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Refrigerators allow you to control the operating temperature to accommodate the differing environmental conditions under which they are required to operate. That aside, the Australian Institute of Food Safety recommends fridge temperatures should be below 5 degrees Celsius and suggest that 3 degrees is a suitable operating temperature, while freezers should operate at -18 degrees Celsius.

Kev, I am not sure why you are arguing with John. You both agree that the freezing point of pure water is 0 degrees Celsius and that snails contain dissolved matter in their cells and other body fluids that stops them from actually freezing at 0 degrees. If an organism actually freeze, ice crystals form within the cells. These are sharp and invariably rupture the cellular membranes, fatally compromising the integrity of the cell.

There are certain physical/chemical conditions capable of inhibiting the formation of ice crystal and a select few organisms possess these allowing them to survive apparent freezing at temperatures that would be fatal for all other organisms.

However, certain behavioural and physiological mechanisms can allow many animals to maintain activity at environmental temperatures below zero and avoid freezing. For example, building nests that hold in escaping body heat, eating large quantities of food to supply the extra energy to maintain body temperatures, the capacity of their metabolic processes to operate at lower than normal temperatures, the ability to shunt blood to minimise the flow to skin and extremities, counter-current heat exchange systems to the extremities, etc. For example, huskies, have a thick layer of insulating fur and fat in the skin below that, and bury themselves in snow for protection. Ice and snow is a poor conductor heat/good insulator, a fact utilised by the Eskimos in building igloos.

A great many more animals are capable of going into torpor at temperatures in single digits. These animals usually secrete themselves into refuges that protect them from exposure to extreme temperatures.

ETC…

Bottom line: There are so many individual mechanisms for surviving sub-zero that it is meaningless to randomly quote such animals without some measure of explanation.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

There is no argument. Just I'm calling snails whacked in a freezer at zero degrees frozen and he's getting all technical and calling them "refrigerated." He's also now getting technical and calling tortoises "turtles." Oh boy...

What do you call it when your computer "freezes?" Ohhh wait.. that's not "technically" right, is it... it's still well above zero or minus 18... there's just no processing activity occurring....

When snails have the same activity level as the ice-cubes with which they're stored, at ZERO... "frozen" is technically good enough for me.

 

[Delphy]

I thought my post was about freezing crickets and we are now in the frozen snail zone... LOL