Views on venomoids

[Firedrake]

Blah I was looking at the pictures in that link, poor damn critters must feel horrible when they wake up. There is absolutely NO REASON this should be done, except to boost the egos of the people who do it and show those snakes. It seems to be purely for the owner/handler's benefit and comfort.

 

[Dan40D]

It's a cruel and disgusting act! If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire (or don't get in it in the first place)

 

[MarcAtterton]

i did a paper for uni on snake defanging in places like india and other parts of asia where they us cobra's and other ven's for shows,, i had to show both sides of the story, i am personally against it, as state by many above, it is a mutilation and often cruel process that the animal indures, but u have to see some people who do snake shows in these parts do for an income and cannot afford to be tagged by a ven so that is their justification, again personally im against it,, in a place like australia or the US where non vens are easily acquired it should never be practiced

 

[saratoga]

I have to agree with Snakehandler here that there is another side to it.

While I would'nt want to see venomoids available to the general public as substitute pets for pythons, or for people who don't know how to deal with real venomous snakes, there is a good reason for using them in displays and education where dangerous snakes are being handled all the time. You can talk about risk minimization, training etc all you like, but if you work with venomous snakes all the time, odds are you that you will be bitten at some stage.

If I was keeping venomous snakes I wouldn't want them venomoided. I don't have any experience with venomoids apart from seeing them in a display and they looked pretty healthy and calm. There is definately an arguement in some cases for a simple quick operation if it means the snakes can then be handled gently and without fear verses being tailed, necked and picked up with cold hooks etc which does stress the animal to varying degrees.

As for "mutilating" the snakes, from the papers I've seen it's a relatively simple operation and the snakes feed readily soon afterwards so I doubt it is extremely stressful or painful to the snake. In other circumstances I've seen snakes with some pretty terrible head injuries recover very well.

So in a very restricted way I think it's ok, but not as a means to freeing up inexperienced keepers to keep dangerous snakes(although that happens a lot already!)

 

[junglepython2]

[/QUOTE] however as the operation is of no medical benefit to the animal, it is a violation of the Veterinary Practices Act, thus cannot be done. [/QUOTE]

Just out of interest if this is true how do they justify desexing male dogs and cats?

 

[Ramsayi]

Butchering animals for the sake of OHS regarding demonstrators? So should zoos etc that deal with lions,tigers etc be allowed to declaw and pull out a big cats teeth under the guise of ohs?

 

[K3nny]

How can there be other side?

let me rephrase that

I am currently writing an expository as part of my year 12 english, arguing whether or not snakes should be de-venomised and would like to hear some of the different views people have on the issue.

only arguments for arguments sake, doesn't mean it's right nor acceptable, but there will be people with differing opinions (or if this was a discussion essay, arguments for and againts have to be included, at least that's what they taught me)

oh and i did forgot to mention my stance on this sorry, it's animal cruelty, plain and simple

So in Australia there is no need to have this procedure done on a snake, the other issues are that people may start to treat the snakes in a different manner, showing it in a manner which gives others a false perception of the snake, people are often guided by what they see, not what they hear...."don't do this at home kids..."

just a question out of genuine interest, is there a need for this anywhere at all in the first place?

 

[Elapidae1]

Is defanging worse than deglanding or are both methods equally abhorent?

 

[hrafna]

staff should be trained to handle vens properly if that is their job, still no excuse to defang or devenom in my opinion

 

[Wally]

however as the operation is of no medical benefit to the animal, it is a violation of the Veterinary Practices Act, thus cannot be done. [/QUOTE]

Just out of interest if this is true how do they justify desexing male dogs and cats?[/QUOTE]

Their are medical benefits to desexing male cats and dogs. Cysts developing in the prostate with the potential to become malignant tumors are one problem. Desexing them has the potential to reduce and even eliminate this.

But for the sake of the original question, I don't agree with voiding an elapid, whether it's purpose is for private keeping or otherwise.

 

[Waterrat]

Ok well there is another side to it:
Demonstrators and other professionals have to operate in a safe manner, under OH&S there may be an argument for it, the risk minimization for a professional demonstrating such animals would definitely reduce the insurance bill and liability, if the procedure was legal in Australia, however as the operation is of no medical benefit to the animal, it is a violation of the Veterinary Practices Act, thus cannot be done.

Demonstrators also can ensure that all the staff are appropriately trained to work with venomous snakes, like any other dangerous jobs you need to ensure your staff are adequately trained to perform the tasks they are set to reduce the risk of harm. Working at heights, working in confined spaces etc all have risks associated, hence a person must be trained to work in them. So risk minimization in the case of demonstrators is to ensure that all staff working with venomous snakes have received the most appropriate training, not the modification of the animals that they wish to demonstrate.

So in Australia there is no need to have this procedure done on a snake, the other issues are that people may start to treat the snakes in a different manner, showing it in a manner which gives others a false perception of the snake, people are often guided by what they see, not what they hear...."don't do this at home kids..."

In terms of private keeping, I see no need for it at all, learn to keep the animals you own without having to modify the animal!

Is this an advertisement for professional snake handlers?

 

[longqi]

If you are going to Demonstrate with vens you simply need to be cautious
Using defanged or venom removed snakes must give both the Demonstrator and the public a completely false sense of security with whatever species is being demonstrated

 

[snakehandler]

Sorry I think people misunderstand, I personally do not see the need for it, provided that staff working with these animals are properly trained! Just like working with big cats, other wildlife or any job with a degree of risk.

I agree that people who do not have the experience and training should avoid contact and use of the animals which they are not able to handle.

De-sexing has a number of medical benefits as mentioned as also reduces the chances of animals getting pregnant and having unwanted babies, creating a much larger problem of dumping!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tassie97]

Venomoids: An Overview

Make up your own mind but I think it's sick

that is discusting!

 

[snakehandler]

If you are going to Demonstrate with vens you simply need to be cautious
Using defanged or venom removed snakes must give both the Demonstrator and the public a completely false sense of security with whatever species is being demonstrated

I agree 100%, a person who owns an animal regardless of type should be able to work with it properly and accept the responsibility of the animal as a whole, not alter it. Having spoken with a number of people overseas with snakes that have had venom glands removed they admit they treat them like a harmless snake, giving a false perception of the animal!

 

[pythonmum]

I agree with snake handler. Venomoids allow people to get away with poor handling technique. When they are then with an entire animal, they place themselves and others at risk if they have gotten sloppy. Yes, these animals are legal in other countries, but that does not make the procedure ethical. Also, it promotes a false sense of security among those who handle them or see them handled because they lose the proper respect for the animals. Display handlers might increase staff safety by using venomoids, but if they were to get slack and demonstrate with improper technique, this might cause a greater problem with public perception of a decreased need for caution.

 

[Waterrat]

As I understand it, this thread is not about safe handling or any handling at all. The OP asked your views on venomoids in relation to animal welfare and ethics; "should it be done".
How does training of people and contact with public come into it? Sorry if I got it wrong.

 

[snakehandler]

The reason for voiding is to make safe for handling, hence the discussion.....in terms of animal welfare, if its done by a vet or properly trained individual, then the animal does not suffer, it terms of ethics....thats already been answered....its a violation of the Vet Practices Act due to the fact it does not have medical benefit to the animal....

and the question was whether or not it should be done...not mentioning ethics or animal welfare!

 

[StellaDoore]

I'm going to start by saying I'm strongly against venomoids. I think it's an unnecessary cruelty inflicted upon the animal for the purpose of being able to free-handle elapids and as a showing off point (look at me! I have a taipan around my neck, aren't I amazingly brave?). If you want a snake to play with and free handle, get yourself a python. There's no need to punish the animal to satisfy your ego.
The process of removing glands isn't even 100% guaranteed safe as there have been cases of animals growing back glands; they may not grow the whole thing back completely, but a simpler, crude version develops and still contains venom. (This info I've found through my own research. If it is wrong and I've been looking at a poor source, my apologies and feel free to correct me.)
There have also been claims that an elapid may need venom for digestion, but I'm not 100% sure on this. Red belly blacks, for example, have necrotic venom, which breaks down/eats at/dissolves flesh to make the prey easier to consume (I think) and the removal of glands prevents it from doing this. I've heard conflicting evidence so some more investigation is needed.
And finally, because de-venomising snakes is illegal the odds of finding a person with enough experience to do the surgery would be incredibly low. It logically follows that any 'surgeons' claiming to be able to make a snake into a venomoid would do so unqualified, unexperienced and with less than sterile equipment, all of which drastically increases the chance of harming the animal and developing infection.
There's a popular saying that goes "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" which I think can be modified to suit this situation: "if you can't stand a hot elapid, stay out of the snake pit."
Best of luck with your paper!!

 

[Elapidae1]

I don't agree with venomoids but the fact is most people don't care for snakes and view them at the lowest levels of the animal kingdom, how many people besides us really give a hoot whether a snake suffered having it's venom glads removed? most probably think it's still better of dead, venom or not, after all it is just a snake.
I wonder if members on fish forums start threads about seeing people at their local jetty allowing fish to flop around gasping for air in the bottom of shallow buckets. Iv'e done it, after all it was just a fish.