Curious question for sensible answers

[Cypher69]

Being a novice to keeping frogs I DID read alot of research FIRST before purchasing my frogs. However I found a lot of contradictions (especially on set-ups & humidity) from one particular source (a publication on Keeping Aust. Frogs) & so turned to message boards to query & rely on people's hands-on experience. This proved invaluable.

Also reading reptile books that were published over 15 years ago stated how all snakes relied full spectrum lighting in their enclosures in order to digest vit D. This was proven false or not as necessary on the message boards.

So yeah, I'll do as much research as I can but at the end of the day, the shared experience from a message board can be more valuable than a generalised publication on frogs or snakes.

 

[Snowman]

Another aspect is that some people struggle to grasp certain concepts or understand clearly the information provided. Sometimes talking to people they will get a simplified version that makes sense to them.
Im sure pet stores send many customers on their way full of confidence and wrong information just for a quick sale. When things go wrong people post on here asking for help.
In an ideal world people would have a better understanding before they get an animal. But then in an ideal world people would know how to drive before getting a drivers license. Yet we see bad drivers everyday. Just like we see bad pet keepers who don't know what they are doing.

 

[treeofgreen]

I know I have been on the recieving end for a few things and at the end of the day I shrug it off because it usually stems from that lack of intonation. The few times I have been told to go Google it I just ignore because they just don't want to be helpful but others generally will be.

As for the search feature of the site I must be incompitant. The number of times I have tried to search for a thread I KNOW exists and for the life of me search turns up empty handed every time, then I trwal back through page upon page of posts and find it. Grrrr!

At the end of the day it may be frustrating sometimes but we should think about it this way... There is no such thing as a stupid question because the stupid thing to do is not ask at all. If someone has impulse bought then we may resent the lack of research but it is better that they ask rather than guess and get it wrong.

I still remember when Jacinta78 joined worried about her snake after a live feeding injury, rather than worry about how to help the snake get better and educate her a goodly number went in with their jack boots and abused her for live feeding (which she was advised to do by the breeder who sold her the snake). She was so intimidated that she nearly gave up on the site. Due to some good advice from those willing to put that aside her snake was able to recover from a very dire situation and last I heard was doing well and she had learned a lot which helped dispell the bad habits she had developed after three years keeping her Mac without interacting with any other reptile keepers.

+1 for searching issues. Thank god someone else mentioned this

 

[Colubrid]

I am a keeper who doesn't usually take advice off some random webpage or a forum full of strangers who may or may not have any experience with the species in question but still give their expert opinions. All it takes is a little common sense and a bit of observation and work on the keepers part to work out their own formula for feeding,heating and housing.
While guides, books and some advice online can be good resources I find it quite naive for people to think that there is a "one size fits all" approach to reptile keeping.

I don't see the point in keeping an interesting family of animals like reptiles only to have someone do all the work for you, buy a notepad for each one of your species and experiment with different types of enclosures,furnishings,substrates,foods,heating and general care. Reptiles aren't made of glass.

 

[Snowman]

I am a keeper who doesn't usually take advice off some random webpage or a forum full of strangers who may or may not have any experience with the species in question but still give their expert opinions. All it takes is a little common sense and a bit of observation and work on the keepers part to work out their own formula for feeding,heating and housing.
While guides, books and some advice online can be good resources I find it quite naive for people to think that there is a "one size fits all" approach to reptile keeping.

I don't see the point in keeping an interesting family of animals like reptiles only to have someone do all the work for you, buy a notepad for each one of your species and experiment with different types of enclosures,furnishings,substrates,foods,heating and general care. Reptiles aren't made of glass.

Great advise. So someone gets a thick tailed gecko and heats it like an ackie. That should end well. The basics need to be learnt before such things happen. Experimenting is fine if you know enough to not put the animals at risk.

 

[MrFireStorm]

Thanks all for the responses.....I can see everyone's point of view especially regarding "google searches' etc.

I get the feeling that some of my concern I was raising has been sidetracked just a little.

My concern is why people buy before they ask instead of asking before they buy.

Daz

 

[ddammitt]

Awesome question Daz. I am very honest - I bought a snake because it was 'cool' without knowing anything about keeping reptiles! I can now say though I wish I had researched first (in NSW your stuck with a reptile for 6 months before you can sell/trade or dispose of it which is a very long time to take care/responsibility for something you have no idea how to look after) which is why I started asking questions and researching.

For me it really is one of those - if I could go back and change kind of things for me. But I do not judge people for making the same mistake I did but instead try my best to help them for the reptiles sake just as much as the owners.

 

[Cypher69]

I am a keeper who doesn't usually take advice off some random webpage or a forum full of strangers who may or may not have any experience with the species in question but still give their expert opinions. All it takes is a little common sense and a bit of observation and work on the keepers part to work out their own formula for feeding,heating and housing.
While guides, books and some advice online can be good resources I find it quite naive for people to think that there is a "one size fits all" approach to reptile keeping.

I don't see the point in keeping an interesting family of animals like reptiles only to have someone do all the work for you, buy a notepad for each one of your species and experiment with different types of enclosures,furnishings,substrates,foods,heating and general care. Reptiles aren't made of glass.

And yet you come across as yet another random stranger on a message board with one of the worst & careless information/advice to share with professionals & novices alike.
So maybe I can EXPERIMENT with my Eastern long neck to adapt to arid conditions? Maybe change my bredli into a vegetarian while I'm at it as well.

 

[Snowman]

As they say "common sense isn't that common anymore".

 

[Gruni]

The side track was a natural extension of your idea in some ways Toni. As I said earlier there are a couple of scenarios why I can see someone doing it, not least of which is getting dodgy advice at point of sale and then realising that they have muffed it. That aside a forum should be a place where a novice can feel safe asking a gumby question and not fear being humiliated instead of helped. If we think "Why the hell didn't you look into that first you twit?!?!?" Then we risk scaring them off and it is the snake not the owner who will suffer. Don't worry so much about why do they ask, just help them out wen they do.

Awesome question Daz. I am very honest - I bought a snake because it was 'cool' without knowing anything about keeping reptiles! I can now say though I wish I had researched first (in NSW your stuck with a reptile for 6 months before you can sell/trade or dispose of it which is a very long time to take care/responsibility for something you have no idea how to look after) which is why I started asking questions and researching.

For me it really is one of those - if I could go back and change kind of things for me. But I do not judge people for making the same mistake I did but instead try my best to help them for the reptiles sake just as much as the owners.

The question is now that you know what to do have you kept your snake and are you happy having one?

 

[Colubrid]

Great advise. So someone gets a thick tailed gecko and heats it like an ackie. That should end well. The basics need to be learnt before such things happen. Experimenting is fine if you know enough to not put the animals at risk.

But aren't the "basics" just a bastardisation of another keeper's experiments? Or are you going off how wild specimens live?
And to assume that the "basics" are interchangeable and relevant to each keeper simply because a few people decided that was the median is a joke.
If it was up to people like you we would still be heating incubators with party globes and trying to suck venom out of a bite. Not to mention never experimenting with water incubation methods etc.

Can you tell me though what basics people like eric warrell and the like followed?

I keep my collection to my specifications based on factors like my local weather, where my enclosures are located in the house, what level in banks they sit in etc, not based on someone's specifications that may be in another state or country. I didn't ask you to follow my advice nor ask for your opinion. The simple fact is I'm not a lazy keeper who relies on other people's work to enjoy my hobby...I'm willing to sit and watch how long my snakes will bask at different lengths to the heat source, record the data and adjust accordingly. It gives me a chance not only to interact more closely with my collection but to also understand the animals and their habits.

You are free to read from a book and follow it.

 

[Snowman]

But aren't the "basics" just a bastardisation of another keeper's experiments? Or are you going off how wild specimens live?
And to assume that the "basics" are interchangeable and relevant to each keeper simply because a few people decided that was the median is a joke.
If it was up to people like you we would still be heating incubators with party globes and trying to suck venom out of a bite. Not to mention never experimenting with water incubation methods etc.

Can you tell me though what basics people like eric warrell and the like followed?

I keep my collection to my specifications based on factors like my local weather, where my enclosures are located in the house, what level in banks they sit in etc, not based on someone's specifications that may be in another state or country. I didn't ask you to follow my advice nor ask for your opinion. The simple fact is I'm not a lazy keeper who relies on other people's work to enjoy my hobby...I'm willing to sit and watch how long my snakes will bask at different lengths to the heat source, record the data and adjust accordingly. It gives me a chance not only to interact more closely with my collection but to also understand the animals and their habits.

You are free to read from a book and follow it.

You are way off base and perhaps even earth for that matter. Everyone knows that smart people take knowledge of others and build on it. There is absolutely no point reinventing the wheel. However there is merit in making a more efficient wheel.

There is so much information out there. Provided by people who are a lot more articulate and educated than you, that you would be a fool to ignore it all. Your basic and somewhat childish observations are a complete waste of time. Im so glad that medical doctors don't take your approach and they infact learn from many great people who have learnt from trial an error before them and they continue to build on that knowledge to advance mankinds understanding of science.

But by all means conduct your experiments. What have you learnt that I haven't?

 

[Colubrid]

You are way off base and perhaps even earth for that matter. Everyone knows that smart people take knowledge of others and build on it. There is absolutely no point reinventing the wheel. However there is merit in making a more efficient wheel.

There is so much information out there. Provided by people who are a lot more articulate and educated than you, that you would be a fool to ignore it all. Your basic and somewhat childish observations are a complete waste of time. Im so glad that medical doctors don't take your approach and they infact learn from many great people who have learnt from trial an error before them and they continue to build on that knowledge to advance mankinds understanding of science.

but by all means conduct your experiments to find out that someone has already realised what you are trying to achieve. If only you could read a book.

So basically you can't answer any of the questions I asked so instead resorted to childish quips?
Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Snowman]

What questions?

 

[Colubrid]

What questions?

The sentences that end with "?" are questions.

 

[Snowman]

The answers are so obvious I thought they were rhetorical.

 

[Colubrid]

The answers are so obvious I thought they were rhetorical.

So what is one to do when there are not definitive guides on keeping and sustaining a certain species?

 

[Snowman]

But aren't the "basics" just a bastardisation of another keeper's experiments?.

No they are a collection of many peoples observations and studies. Studies that took into factor what the requirements are for each species to survive in captivity. What the essential elements from the wild are that need to be replicated in a captive environment.

Or are you going off how wild specimens live?

As stated above most text on keeping animals is a result of observing wild specimens and their needs.

And to assume that the "basics" are interchangeable and relevant to each keeper simply because a few people decided that was the median is a joke.

What on earth are you talking about. EVERY species we are able to keep has been sucessfully kept and bred. There is not a species we keep that we can not get specific information on pertaining to husbandry.

Can you tell me though what basics people like eric warrell and the like followed?

Warrell was indeed a pioneer, and as such had very little information available to him. And the fact that you know about him means you are obviously familiar with his work and therefore have knowledge of others pertaining to herpetofauna. That's what this was all about. Using peoples knowledge to make sure you are informed enough to keep reptiles without having to ask questions after you get them.
You insinuate that you do not follow the teachings of others. So by that token I'd love to know what you do differently? No globes, heat cords, heat mats, CHE. No vivariums or other equipment that is recommended in the hobby by people who have passed on good information about keeping reptiles?

We all tailor our setups to our individual taste, needs and observations. We all make them based on what we read and observe in wild specimens that is what this hobby is all about.

- - - Updated - - -

So what is one to do when there are not definitive guides on keeping and sustaining a certain species?

In reference to the OP. No one on APS asks questions when they are experimenting with species that are not currently kept succesfully. The questions are always about animals found on the keepers lists.
I know a few people who have kept and breed animals that have not been kept in captivity before. And they always seem to follow the examples of a similar species that are kept. They often write up their notes and ALWAYS have references from other sources. That is how REAL scientific study is conducted. Actually look in any reptile keeping book and you will see a ton of references to other peoples work by the author.

 

[MrFireStorm]

That's what this was all about. Using peoples knowledge to make sure you are informed enough to keep reptiles without having to ask questions after you get them.

TOUCHE

Although I have no probs with keepers (newbies or otherwise) asking after they have had the animal for a while and a problem arises. Afterall, we are all here for the same reasons and not to be-little the beginners or turn them off.

If I can help answer a question in a factual manner I will do so however I won't reply with unfounded or derogative comments toward them.

As they say, if you can't say something nice (helpful) don't say anything at all. Hence my low number of posts:lol:

 

[samph89]

nicely said snowman


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