Auzlizardking
Very Well-Known Member
Thanks to all the people who sent PMs - I have been told - The Jags are now sold! They went very quickly.
'07 jags PICS!!!! (MAJOR DUW!!)
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Matt Brock
Not so new Member
Ihaveherps, the original male was NOT produced by someone else. I have talked directly to Jan about this. Whether they were pure coastal may be debateable as I stated, but he did in fact produce the first male himself.
here are couple of jag look alikes I am working on, wouldn't call them reduced pattern as the light colour is the pattern and the darker pattern is actually the ground colour.most have probably seen these before, gotta take some new ones.
Southside Morelia
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Atleast we all agree their beautiful animals. Let's stop splitting hairs and breed own own... I'm sure in time we will get there and not pay the ludricous $5k that was being asked for the "Aussie jag" originally advertised on this post...I know where my money's going next season and i'm pretty sure it's going to be close to the mark and alot less than that price!!!
ihaveherps
Well-Known Member
Boa, Stevel, and Matt, I have to agree with you, but only because after searching MP I cannot find the posts I reference... although around the same time Mp closed for a short period due to fighting, and the thread had spun out of control.... but I suppose it all amounts to hear-say without any links to be provided.
I was involved in the thread you mentioned here are some of the important details:
There are a few , well known former associates of Jans who claim that he did NOT produce the founder animal and so he really doesent know what it it is for certain.
"Herpkeeping in some EU countries is very restricted, from what I hear the animal was being kept illegally in a different EU country. The story goes that Jan traded some animal for it.
Jan was only liscensed to keep coastals in Norway so thats what he claimed it was, saying that it spontaeously hatched from his coastal adults.
There have never been any pics of the parents on his site, or any pics of the siblings to the founder animal from that clutch, its as if it just magically appeared.
In this scenario , it is impossible to tell if the founder was a pure coastal but they are represented as pure coastals.
In the early jag clutches the siblings looked very bright and resembled intergrades, but with time and more generations of being bred to coastals they now look like average coastals. This fuels speculation that the founder was something other than a pure coastal and that it has been slowly bred out with each generation.
So it depends on who you believe. I personally seriously doubt Jans story for many reasons.
It is worth mentioning that the two europeans who provided this information do believe that the founder Jag is most likely a coastal, based mostly on what was availble in Europe at the time.
It also came out in that thread that Jan Eric had been busted for animal smuggling previously, between two European countries. Wich he did not deny when he posted on that thread.
Nick
There are a few , well known former associates of Jans who claim that he did NOT produce the founder animal and so he really doesent know what it it is for certain.
"Herpkeeping in some EU countries is very restricted, from what I hear the animal was being kept illegally in a different EU country. The story goes that Jan traded some animal for it.
Jan was only liscensed to keep coastals in Norway so thats what he claimed it was, saying that it spontaeously hatched from his coastal adults.
There have never been any pics of the parents on his site, or any pics of the siblings to the founder animal from that clutch, its as if it just magically appeared.
In this scenario , it is impossible to tell if the founder was a pure coastal but they are represented as pure coastals.
In the early jag clutches the siblings looked very bright and resembled intergrades, but with time and more generations of being bred to coastals they now look like average coastals. This fuels speculation that the founder was something other than a pure coastal and that it has been slowly bred out with each generation.
So it depends on who you believe. I personally seriously doubt Jans story for many reasons.
It is worth mentioning that the two europeans who provided this information do believe that the founder Jag is most likely a coastal, based mostly on what was availble in Europe at the time.
It also came out in that thread that Jan Eric had been busted for animal smuggling previously, between two European countries. Wich he did not deny when he posted on that thread.
Nick
Australis
Almost Legendary
Intresting post Nick,
Its a good point, he wasnt exactly in a position to declare them anything but Pure Coastals, for risk of losing everything.
I also found it intresting that not much was said about any further breed results from the so called normal coastal pair that is ment to have produced the founder jag, the weirdest Carpet morph in history pops out, and not attempt to try for more?
Alot of things dont add up in the Jaguar story, makes for great reading :shock:
Its a good point, he wasnt exactly in a position to declare them anything but Pure Coastals, for risk of losing everything.
I also found it intresting that not much was said about any further breed results from the so called normal coastal pair that is ment to have produced the founder jag, the weirdest Carpet morph in history pops out, and not attempt to try for more?
Alot of things dont add up in the Jaguar story, makes for great reading :shock:
Zanejb
Active Member
id just like to mention to a few people on here that you can LEGALLY import animals from over seas, the process is long and hard but it is possable. i dont see the issue either with jags POSSABLE being $5000? this seams like a reasonable price for a mutation and even if these snakes are imported how else are you supposed to get the mutation here in aus if it hasnt been found in this country? of course itll be an import. after seeing the posts made on here i have decided that i would refuse to have one of these snakes as this is the kind of rubbish that happens people fight and debate about something that really isnt that important. the snake is a snake thats a little different from others and thats all so why all this fighting? if the snakes arent here in aus (and im not saying they arent cos they may be i dont know) then why worry about them at this stage.
and no offence to the american guy who has been posting but youve made 6 posts lol how do we know its not one of the aussie guys here with a different account trying to get his own way?
and no offence to the american guy who has been posting but youve made 6 posts lol how do we know its not one of the aussie guys here with a different account trying to get his own way?
He never mentions breeding the founder jags parents again, never breeds the founder Jag back to its mother, Never breeds the Founder Jag to its siblings. and Never breeds any of the founder jags siblings together. All of these things would be the logical thing to do with an animal like that.
Also have not found a single person who owns any of the siblings to the founder jag yet it must have had siblings that were sold to someone.
He is writing an article for Reptiles magazine about Jags and will supposedly have pics of everything. But this only comes after 13 years and lots of rumors so at this point it seems a littel convenient to finally find some pics of these animals.
It all fits perfectly with the alternate story that he did not produce the founder animal.
People can and will believe what they want but I am a species purist and wont work with them becasue I can never be sure if they are really pure coastals with any degree of certainty.
Nick
Also have not found a single person who owns any of the siblings to the founder jag yet it must have had siblings that were sold to someone.
He is writing an article for Reptiles magazine about Jags and will supposedly have pics of everything. But this only comes after 13 years and lots of rumors so at this point it seems a littel convenient to finally find some pics of these animals.
It all fits perfectly with the alternate story that he did not produce the founder animal.
People can and will believe what they want but I am a species purist and wont work with them becasue I can never be sure if they are really pure coastals with any degree of certainty.
Nick
Jungle_Freak
Very Well-Known Member
Hello Nick,
your statement below is incorrect mate ,
Quote ,There have never been any pics of the parents on his site, or any pics of the siblings to the founder animal from that clutch, its as if it just magically appeared. end quote
The " claimed" ??parents photos were there on Jans site for atleast a year maybe 2 years in the early days when the first lot of hatchling jags and sibs were sent to america by Jan, thus kicking off the jags in the USA
i have herd jungles cannot be kept legally in Norway ?
And one parent did look like a crappy looking jungle , then this could be why the pics were removed ,
Roger
your statement below is incorrect mate ,
Quote ,There have never been any pics of the parents on his site, or any pics of the siblings to the founder animal from that clutch, its as if it just magically appeared. end quote
The " claimed" ??parents photos were there on Jans site for atleast a year maybe 2 years in the early days when the first lot of hatchling jags and sibs were sent to america by Jan, thus kicking off the jags in the USA
i have herd jungles cannot be kept legally in Norway ?
And one parent did look like a crappy looking jungle , then this could be why the pics were removed ,
Roger
Jungle_Freak
Very Well-Known Member
Heres a saved image of another pure coastal ? a pattern variation green spotted coastal from Jans site from the same time the parent pics were also on the site,
The Green spotted carpet looks like a diamond cross coastal to me , but at the time Jan claimed this one was pure coastal ,but when the parent of the first jag pics were removed so was this pic of the green spotted carpet,
i also have attached a scanned print out photo and text from Jans site with Jans description of the Jag sib ,
he keeps reffering to jungle type charactoristics in many of his descritpions of his pure coastals , which does not make sence if the jags are pure coastal,
seems a odd way to give a decription to me ??
i wish i had saved every photo and text from each page of Jans site in the early days ,
Also there quite a few more jag sib pics from juniors clutch , the second ever jag ,
and these sibs all looks like jungles or jungle cross coastals ,
all these pics dissappeared along with parent pics ,
Jag ancestry is muddy at best,
The Green spotted carpet looks like a diamond cross coastal to me , but at the time Jan claimed this one was pure coastal ,but when the parent of the first jag pics were removed so was this pic of the green spotted carpet,
i also have attached a scanned print out photo and text from Jans site with Jans description of the Jag sib ,
he keeps reffering to jungle type charactoristics in many of his descritpions of his pure coastals , which does not make sence if the jags are pure coastal,
seems a odd way to give a decription to me ??
i wish i had saved every photo and text from each page of Jans site in the early days ,
Also there quite a few more jag sib pics from juniors clutch , the second ever jag ,
and these sibs all looks like jungles or jungle cross coastals ,
all these pics dissappeared along with parent pics ,
Jag ancestry is muddy at best,
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That green spotted animal is weird, although I can see what you mean about the Diamond influence it seem to lack the yellow tipping on the scales and the scales seem to be a solid green.
There is so much speculation and theorising over the origins of the snakes. We hear about and see so much variation in coastals but when we see this sort of extreme variation we doubt the authenticity.
There is only one person who knows for sure.
There is so much speculation and theorising over the origins of the snakes. We hear about and see so much variation in coastals but when we see this sort of extreme variation we doubt the authenticity.
There is only one person who knows for sure.
Jungle_Freak
Very Well-Known Member
Ok i have found some old pages from Jans site i saved to CD ,
but not the page with the first jags parent pics ,
if anyone wants a copy of all the pages i have, then pm me , ill send you a copy ,
makes interesting reading
but not the page with the first jags parent pics ,
if anyone wants a copy of all the pages i have, then pm me , ill send you a copy ,
makes interesting reading
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Roger, I remember that pic of the diamond X coastal. we see animals over here from time to time that look nearly identical and all that I have seen were known intergrades.
I mis-spoke earlier but I still dont remember pics of the original sire that supposedly produced the founder jag though its possible that they were pulled early, befrore I ever saw the site.
Look at the pic of the "pure coastal" sibling. None produced in the US or Europe today look anything like that, If the founder animal was an intergrade then with each generation they are bred to pure coastals they look more normal. The Jag sibs from coastal clutches produced in the US today look complety normal , as if the intergrade blood is being reduced with each generation.
It all makes a compelling case to doubt the story of its origins to say the least.
I will mention that some the European sources who have told me much of this about Jan Eric still believe that they are in fact coastals, they said the original sibling pics were altered in photoshop to look more like jungles.
Only one person knows for sure. For me there is too much doubt to work with them.
Morphs are interesting but nothing compares to some of the locality coastals you guys have access to.
Nick
I mis-spoke earlier but I still dont remember pics of the original sire that supposedly produced the founder jag though its possible that they were pulled early, befrore I ever saw the site.
Look at the pic of the "pure coastal" sibling. None produced in the US or Europe today look anything like that, If the founder animal was an intergrade then with each generation they are bred to pure coastals they look more normal. The Jag sibs from coastal clutches produced in the US today look complety normal , as if the intergrade blood is being reduced with each generation.
It all makes a compelling case to doubt the story of its origins to say the least.
I will mention that some the European sources who have told me much of this about Jan Eric still believe that they are in fact coastals, they said the original sibling pics were altered in photoshop to look more like jungles.
Only one person knows for sure. For me there is too much doubt to work with them.
Morphs are interesting but nothing compares to some of the locality coastals you guys have access to.
Nick
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