Big ideas

[Waterrat]

It's great to see so many positive comments. We have to fight for our wildlife - after all, it is OUR wildlife, not theirs! The wildlife agencies are merely appointed as managers and they failed in big way right across the board.
Their huge city offices are packed with bureaucrats, the many knowledgeable and dedicated Rangers are being reduced to toilet and BBQ cleaners in National Parks and there is no one to look after out wildlife in real terms. They don't listen to scientists, instead they keep on applying ancient methods that proved to be useless ages ago and there is no prospect of any changes soon. We have to make those changes and we will. Treat the Big Ideas debate as a preamble, there is more to come.

 

[Wild~Touch]

We have to make those changes and we will. Yes I agree

We as Reptile Keepers must give these "Nature Gods" back up and support in an intelligent way....that is all they are asking for....listen to their words and pass their message on.

 

[SteveNT]

Too true. The beurocracy just gets fatter and the people in the field disappear.

Heaps of our Ranger stations have closed and as a result the desk drivers are making absurd decisions based on data that is decades old and no longer relevant. Hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted on computer modelling of bushfire regimes and consequences without factoring in Gamba and Mission grass which is rapidly changing the face of Country up here. Woodland is becoming grassland but these clowns dont seem to notice.

 

[yommy]

this should be make a sticky

 

[Waterrat]

Woodland is becoming grassland but these clowns dont seem to notice.

Steve, they are noticing it but they are too embarrassed to admit that they don't know what to do about it and too bloody proud to let private enterprise to help.

 

[Fuscus]

The only way to get changes made is to agitate by forming a lobby group or political movement with other stake holders like bird keepers and (prospective) mammal keepers. Has anyone here got skills in this area?

 

[saximus]

Do you guys have info on what we can do or where we can go to actually help?

 

[Red-Ink]

Thank you you much for that little gem of information Michael...

 

[Gabriel.G]

as a zookeeper once told me recently whilst visiting a park, there's no better way let an animal go extinct than let our government take care of it.....

 

[Waterrat]

The only way to get changes made is to agitate by forming a lobby group or political movement with other stake holders like bird keepers and (prospective) mammal keepers. Has anyone here got skills in this area?

PM sent.

There are Big Ideas and Big Issues to deal with. For example, the State wildlife authorities are breaking constitutional law by hindering the free interstate trade. They have no right to impose import / export permits. And that's just one such issue, there are many more.

 

[Laghairt]

Yes agreed! It's too much for reptile keepers to do on their own. Look at the traction the fishing/hunting party was able to achieve in the NSW state election. I'm sure there are just as many reptile/native animal keepers as there are hunters, they just need to be organised.

It's a shame that the misguided views of the delusional and ignorant activists seem to carry more political eight than evidence based practices that will be more successful and economically viable.

The only way to get changes made is to agitate by forming a lobby group or political movement with other stake holders like bird keepers and (prospective) mammal keepers. Has anyone here got skills in this area?

 

[waruikazi]

I think alot of people posting here are getting rather starry eyed. Cherry picking the information that was in that video and thinking that we are contributing to conservation efforts by housing a coastal or childrens. The simple fact is that bringing an animal into the pet trade does nothing for conservation in itself.

The idea of bringing threatened species into captivity is nothing more than an extinction insurance policy. What use are these animals to the environment if they are stuck in glass cages? The answer to this is nothing! They are as good as dead in their contribuition to biodiversity. I can hear you all shouting at me through your computers right now 'BUT THEY CAN BE REINTRODUCED GORDO!!!!' To that point i will say this, reintroduction is futile unless the threatening process has been reduced or eliminated and the average keeper will never be asked for their stock to be part of a reintroduction program. Greg Miles agrees with these points.

It will take a very dedicated and special individual/group to maintain an insurance population. It will be very expensive and the use of these animals for successful reintroduction will probably never happen, unless something very drastic and expensive is done with our landscape to restore it.

The RSP story in the pet trade is not a win for conservation, it is a win for the pet trade. Research that was collected during the project on them is a win, or atleast a stripe on the shoulder for conservation but 1000 of them in glass boxes is not.

Like one of the audience members said, this is treating a symptom and leaving the problem to fester.

With that said, i think insurance populations are a good idea so long as they are one tiny tiny part of a much larger conservation effort.

I also have no problem with sustainable use of any species, so long as the use is humane, and i think the pet trade should be included in that idea of sustainable use.

Just be genuine about the reasons why we want these animals in the hobby. It is for our own selfish reasons.

 

[Waterrat]

Gordo, I absolutely agree with your last sentence, actually the last two in particular. My point is, why are our money being wasted by gov. deps. on creating conservation policies and strategies that don't work and why even more money is wasted on reptile keeping regulations and compliance when these animals (CB reptiles) are of no conservation value. Why are reptile keepers (in other than Qld) being screwed for import / export permits when tracking CB animals is a futile exercise? Do any of these things do anything for conservation? I don't think so!

 

[mummabear]

Your right. But that is the point it is an insurance policy. As they said the look but don't touch method of conservation has not stopped the decline of our most vulnerable species. If faced with a choice which it seam we are, lose species to extinction or have some-many in private hands. What should we choose? Sensibility tells me that i would rather them alive in captivity than extinct. But here lies the problem, sensibility. Also on a selfish point is it wrong to want to have out native animals as pets? We as a human species will always want to keep pets why not have our native ones and if is preserves a species then great.

 

[waruikazi]

I'd be interested to find out if the fees we pay go toward any (even if they are ineffective) conservation efforts or if the money only goes to pay for the administration of permits and tracking etc.

I do agree with having a permit system though. Simply to reduce the effects of large scale poaching.

Your right. But that is the point it is an insurance policy. As they said the look but don't touch method of conservation has not stopped the decline of our most vulnerable species. If faced with a choice which it seam we are, lose species to extinction or have some-many in private hands. What should we choose? Sensibility tells me that i would rather them alive in captivity than extinct. But here lies the problem, sensibility. Also on a selfish point is it wrong to want to have out native animals as pets? We as a human species will always want to keep pets why not have our native ones and if is preserves a species then great.

Even though i think our reasons for keeping are selfish i don't think keeping is wrong, i'm all for it. I can't see a reason why we shouldn't keep any animal we feel like so long as the keeping is humane and it doesn't have a negative impact on wild populations.

But hobby keeping and 'conservation' keeping are entirely separate and they need to be kept this way to keep genetically diverse and strong bloodlines that resemble an average wild animal that has the potential to be released, if that is what we want. Other wise we may aswell keep the animals in glass jars of spirits.

Sensibility also tells me that species going extinct, in the short term, is actually a rather rare event. Most species still survive, albeit in differently, in isolated populations and they can recover in their own time. Not always but it does happen. Sensibility also tells me that reintroduction programs usually don't work.

The majority of our conservation efforts need to be focused on restoring a balance to our environment. Fix the environment and we won't need insurance policies.

 

[imported_Varanus]

Interesting points Gordo! Can anyone give any examples of where the private keeping of native animals has aided in conservation efforts, in any country? I guess the croc farm example mentioned in the doco comes to mind.

 

[waruikazi]

Interesting points Gordo! Can anyone give any examples of where the private keeping of native animals has aided in conservation efforts, in any country? I guess the croc farm example mentioned in the doco comes to mind.

Croc farms aren't really private collections though. They are businesses/organisations.

 

[saximus]

The private keeping this is only a minor facet of the overall effort though. They even said in the doco that it's purely an insurance thing. Sorry of this was said earlier but I don't understand why you're attacking that specifically?

 

[waruikazi]

I'm not attacking anything Sachs. I'm just telling it like it is. I think captive populations are a good idea, i've said that already, as long as they are labelled as what they truly are.

But i think you are wrong, the private keeping is nothing in the overall idea of wildlife/biodiversity conservation as it stands right now. Alot of people posting in this thread seem to me to be saying that these animals need to be brought into the pet trade for conservation reasons. I am of the opinion, and it will take alot to convince me otherwise, that the pet trade will have no long term positive effect on conservation the way it is structured now.

The private keeping this is only a minor facet of the overall effort though. They even said in the doco that it's purely an insurance thing. Sorry of this was said earlier but I don't understand why you're attacking that specifically?

 

[imported_Varanus]

Yes, true.