Do you have any ideas on how we can help the hobby??

[Red-Ink]

Does a BD need to be on license - no
A bluetongue isn't on license here in Vic so why should a BD. I don't really think most of the people in the DSE that enforce the licensing system would know if there was a difference in their husbandry requirements.

Do we require a licensing system at all - no
Do we require a wildlife audit in our care - yes, but on the provision that the govt actually care as well (do they?)

Do we need a Certification of basic husbandry instead of a license - HELLS YEAH
Charge would be reptile keepers for a basic husbandry test/course, give them a certificate if they pass and use that as proof of trading.
Charge them a one time fee for a certification of husbandry knowledge for each species they want to keep instead of charging for a piece of paper each year (sorry a "license"), which they don't seem to care about anyway - apart from a revenue it generates.... (I still don't know what the revenue from my license fee goes to - does it help wildlife or does it pay for their lunches?)

This way at least that piece of paper they give us here in Vic is worth something more than the cost of the ink and paper (damn expensive paper and ink they use as well I might add).

 

[longqi]

Whilst i haven't been around as long as you Longqi it is my understanding that the keeping of reptiles was pretty well unlicenced in Australia up until say 20 years ago and is generally licenced since then. Are you suggesting that the changes in Aussie herp saftey in Australia and the imminent worldwide mass extinction of species, are a result of this? I belive licencing of reptiles in Australia makes no difference to their care in captivity or survival in the wild.

What I attempted to say was that if beardies required no license they could and would be removed from the wild
That would immediately create precedent under Aus law to allow the removal of other species
The survival of many small local herps depends almost totally on their protection under licence
example
Some professor proves that jungle pythons should now be unlicensed
How long would the Julaten black and whites last?
Or various other locales with isolated groups of any other animal that was desirable to the pet trade

Classic International example is the Canary GTP
Latest reports put them on the under threat of extinction list
They are definitely no longer worth looking for on either Kofiau or Misool Is

So the licensing of animals does have a huge impact on their potential survival

 

[Demansiaphile]

Gavin

Yes and no. Clearly, if you go herping you'll know that beardies are extremely common. And captives have no conservational value, and I dare say most of Australian captives have no conservational value. So in that regard, the licensing system is really not needed for them.

That said, where do you draw the line? There's times I've seen 20 Eastern Browns in one day, and plenty, if not all elapid keepers have kept them. Do they need licenses. That might not be the best example, but again I ask where do you draw the line between species?

Having all reptiles under one system (rather than several different systems) would be ideal. Although I can see the positive sides of having "endemic" only rules in Tasmania, much to the complete dismay of Tassie keepers.

Now, I love the idea of an united reptile lobby. But I just don't think it will happen. Or at least happen for the right reasons. More people are concerned about putting animals in a box for themselves, rather than putting animals into the trade for conservational reasons. There's a substantial group in QLD, that have claimed that they would help conservation but all they have worked on (publicly) at meetings is how they can add more reptiles to the pet-store list.
Now, that might have the "captive" hobby in mind. But I care little for the hobby. I'm much more concerned about the state of wild-life and the relationship (or lack there of) that we, as humans have with it . If this was kept in balance with the emergence of morphs (I'm all for them by the way, not some Nazi purist) and the rest of the hobby. THAT would be amazing and something I'd love to be part of.


Another note, is that there's plenty of specialist keepers (such as yourself), Danny Brown, HerpHeaven, S. Black and several other keepers who would easily be able to help breed highly endangered/isolated/cryptic/desired animals (if it was ever required).
Pygmy Blue Tongues, Nangurs, B obiri and C. egeriae come to mind.http://www.arod.com.au/arod/reptilia/Squamata/Scincidae/Cryptoblepharus/egeriae But State government bodies want no part of it.

The collection of several species that are non existent in the hobby but are extremely common in the wild, but in theory would be very easy to keep as well as being popular is also an issue I'd love to see stated on a national scale (Homalopsids, {keeping Macleays is a very easy task as well as in enjoyable}, small monitors, medium sized skinks and some small elapids)

Even simple things like having all licenses go digital would be great. That way, there's no actual paper work, it's simple, takes 1min, large distances aren't a problem and it's easier to track for the authorities. Venomous snake licenses need to be worked on, that's another argument in itself. But in general they were clearly made by some white collar who has no idea about reptile keeping, let alone keeping venomous snakes.

As you said, there's plenty of sub groups in the hobby that all want completely different things. And that is going to be hard to address as what's popular right now, is definitely not always right....

To answer your original question. Yes, licenses should be needed for bearded dragons, as should all reptiles in Australia.

 

[Skeptic]

Some professor proves that jungle pythons should now be unlicensed
How long would the Julaten black and whites last?
Or various other locales with isolated groups of any other animal that was desirable to the pet trade

The licensing system we have doesn't specify localities. It wouldn't be hard to put a wild animal of a desirable locale on licence.

Should we have to have a licence to drive a car? Yes.
Should we have to have a licence to own a gun? Yes.
Should we have to have a licence to own a Bearded Dragon? No.

As has been said, licences don't stop poaching, they don't stop neglect, and the whole system is impossible to administer on an effective level.

 

[Jacknife]

If a single governing body were ever put in place, you'd never see nor hear from me again. And I'm sure plenty of other herpers feel the same...

 

[SteveNT]

I think that licensing does discourage wild collection. I understand that beardies are common but so were several species of tarantula in Qld, now extinct due to unrestricted collection for the pet trade.

For all the faults with licensing in various states and territories it does have a value. Once people get to work harvesting BDs from the wild they will start casting an eye over the other herps they come across in the process.

As for a national herp lobbying body, I think it makes sense but would be very complicated to implement. State/Territory groups would be more effective given the massive disparity of herp laws around Australia.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

If a single governing body were ever put in place, you'd never see nor hear from me again. And I'm sure plenty of other herpers feel the same...

What do you mean by "governing body"? I don't think anyone has the notion that a national reptile-interest lobby group could be regarded as a "governing body." And, with all due respect, do you think it would matter much to Oz herpers if we didn't see or hear from you again - I don't log on here, ever, in anticipation of your contributions Badsville. And without realising it, you're already suggesting that you represent a subset of herp keepers yourself...

Jamie

 

[B_STATS]

Perhaps gaining licenses should be made much more difficult. As it is you just throw some money at the Government and they give you a little piece of paper. Hardly has anything to do with responsible reptile keeping.

 

[wokka]

What I attempted to say was that if beardies required no license they could and would be removed from the wild
That would immediately create precedent under Aus law to allow the removal of other species
The survival of many small local herps depends almost totally on their protection under licence
example
Some professor proves that jungle pythons should now be unlicensed
How long would the Julaten black and whites last?
Or various other locales with isolated groups of any other animal that was desirable to the pet trade

Classic International example is the Canary GTP
Latest reports put them on the under threat of extinction list
They are definitely no longer worth looking for on either Kofiau or Misool Is

So the licensing of animals does have a huge impact on their potential survival

I agree that unregulated export may put pressure on wild Australian populations of reptiles, but domestic licencing has little effect. Some states require a licence to keep Bluetounges and some dont. Is there more wild Bluetounges left in the states with licencing than those without?
Back to bearded dragons. Let's hypothosise that every Australian wants one as a pet = say 30 million. I dont think that would put much of a dent in the wild population, (wild cats would eat 10 times that) but why would you bother catching them when they are readily available, cheaply as captive bred. In many cases the licence costs more than the lizard so owners go underground . How does that help anything?

 

[RedFox]

Vic license is as easy as getting a money order/bank cheque and sending it off and in 4 weeks you can go buy Vens...

Difficult probably wasn't the right word. Inconvenient would have being better. I went straight on to an advanced licence so I know how easy it can be. I was meaning more in terms of impulse buying? I sincerely hope no one walks into a petshop see a beardie and a children's python and thinks do you know what? I feel like owning a taipan in 4 weeks.

True, but don't forget we also need our license notarized by a JoP, not sure if any other states need that.

That said I think Vic has some of the best, most well rounded licensing of all states.

I would agree to a certain extent. Vens should be made more difficult to obtain although it seems to self regulate itself a fair bit as I don't know of anyone down there that got a ven as their first herp or any bites.

The thing I like about the QLD licencing and so far there hasn't being make to like is the dynamic species list. VIC has a rigid list and as proven recently it can be difficult to add species.

Vic licensing also has all the license conditions on the application form rather than other states where you have no idea what you are signing up for unless you have a proper hunt through their website. (hence why a lot of people don't know about the 6 month rule)

 

[euan]

Warwick has some VERY valid points
There is always this argument about animal welfare in regards to impulse buying
Licensing has not been shown to stop or influence such
Taking Bearded Dragons from the wild will not affect their populations unsustainably
There are plenty of studies showing such
Show me a study that proves that de-licensing bearded dragons will unsustainably affect Bearded Dragon populations or that de-licensing will lead to an appreciable increase in welfare issues
It's fine to have an opinion but please base it on facts and figures with some experience thrown in for good measure
These regulations are written to try and ensure 100% of the population adhere to them.
The EU did a study and showed that a small percentage of the population will always obey the law, a small percentage will never obey the law and a majority will obey if it suits them
To be controversial the more experienced you are the more animals you have killed

 

[eipper]

Gavin,

I am for de regulation of licensing for all reptile species that are not included under the following banners.

Rare, Threatened, Vulnerable, Endangered, Critically Endangered, Presumed Extinct.

If a person wishes to keep a species that is listed under the above banners then they should need a licence.

Reptiles bred in captivity are not really wildlife anymore. Other than educational value which in turn makes for a more sympathetic public to environmental issues captive reptiles in a PRIVATE setting without studbooks or part of an actual study are no longer any use to conservation of that species. Why is a "wildlife" department concerning themselves with something that is about as wild as a pet shop budgie. If they really wanted to get serious about conservation of species the money they spend on compliance, paperwork and changing their name every 3 years could be used to fund a couple of feral shooters for a few months.......If they shot Cats, Pigs, Brumbies and baited foxes and dogs they would save more wildlife in one year than ever before.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[Striker]

The discussions and individual views held here are not unlike issues occurring and being raised within the public sector and world of unions. I make reference to this world because some of you would be aware, that Unions representing large groups (eg. public sector) are becoming increasingly ineffective because their members cannot agree on anything. Gavin indicated the same difficulty in the reptile keeping world in his original post raising the issue of difficulties "because any group of reptile people will have very different views on what is good and bad for the hobby, or even for a particular reptile. " The discussion in this thread is clearly testament to Gavins point. Any representative group for the hobby needs to recognise this aspect and somehow find a way to move forward while working with the complexity of representing individuals with varying views. The most efficient way to do this is to identify the common themes (brainstorming etc) and work on those. In this discussion it is obvious that the majority of those who participated in the discussion are not necessarily adamant that a licensing system is required. What most generally have indicated is required is either a system that is not farcical (as the current one obviously is) and a management system that benefits the hobby and the well-being of both captive and wild animals. Additional benefit may exist in the system providing some level of support to reptile keepers. The currently existing system is aimed at little more than profit, and providing a perception that some management is occurring. In reality it is a poorly managed system that is open to manipulation where unscrupulous keepers can legitimise illegal or unethical acts. I agree with the idea of representatives of the hobby being involved in future progress. I also don't care whether there is a licensing system to keep a lizard or not, as long as whatever system exists benefits the animals and keepers. If there is greater benefit to both wild and captive animals in having no licensing system then so be it. The same applies to a licensing system. We will always have keepers not looking after animals, taking them from the wild etc as we have historically seen with all domestic pets. There has to be a degree of acceptance of this fact with an aim to minimise these acts where possible, whilst still acting in the best overall interests of the hobby. I hope that any future established representative group can cut through the differences in opinion to the core of the issues and work on those, otherwise they would be no different to the current government bureaucrats operating and making decisions on the basis of opinion, perception and emotive issues.

 

[alzisman]

The main purpose of licenses such as wildlife license it just another tax on you and that’s all, no more no less.
The government is thinking if you want to keep reptiles –pay tax, if you are wealthy enough to buy reptiles, enclosures and etc. than you can donate a few dollars to the government, and the fact that nowhere else in the world you don’t need a license to keep reptiles proves the above.
I am paying fishing license, but for that we get better boat ramps, artificial reefs etc., what do we get for wildlife license?