Cane Toads.

[Wombok]

I was kind of stupid to even post this thread. I understand that they kill millions of natives, and my lion quote thing was even stupider. I was trying to see if I could delete the whole post, though I'm not sure how.
I will try to persuade her to kill them humanely and all, not sure what will end up happening though.

 

[PythonLegs]

This has turned into an interesting thread , I saw it when it was posted and typed a reply of "Nothing a nine iron wouldnt fix ",but being polite I deleted it and moved on .Should of posted it .
This and many other country's have been doing themselves damage by introducing things that just dont belong for years ,Although I think we are one of the best at it here in oz .We need people with backbones to stand up and eradicate things like Cane Toads ,Foxes,Red Deer ,Rabbits ,Camels ,*****y Pear,Lantana , Pidgeons ,Indian Mynas,European House Sparrows, Asian Ibis's ,Starlings . On my last trip to NZ i found a book on native Birds ,I think about %47 were introduced but now classed or accepted as "Native "
Yes and maybe some are thinking that us whities are an introduced pest also and should be removed . or at least just Julia :lol:

haha..*****ly pear.

 

[Skeptic]

No. A python does fit your analogy of the lion and gazelle. A python is native and belongs here. Its a part of the Australian ecosystem. A snake killing a rat, mouse, fish, bird, goat, rabbit is 100% natural. The cane toad isn't.

So goats and rabbits are native?

 

[eipper]

hey we cant forget the keel back snake can also survive the cane toad poison mate has one and feeds it little toads come on snakes please adapt and become like the keel back then free food for everyone yay! lol

your mate will have a dead Keelback soon enough the processing of the toad toxins have an extremely high metabolic cost and out weigh the benefits for the snake...so while they can eat them they cannot survive indefinitely on them

 

[eipper]

Unfortunately this is often quoted and misrepresents the situation.

Apparently it's true that Cane toads have not driven any one species to extinction, but this quote refers to the whole population right across it's distribution range

The real danger is extinction of localised populations where the toads occur

Hi Greg,

The problem is that presently the information while most likely correct is still anecdotal. My understanding is that there is no long term (after intial wave) reduction that has baseline data (pre toad, post wave and post evening out of the population into the ecosystem).

Most reports are going from memory, records or flawed study (other impacts eg habitat modification, fire regime/management change, climatic change that has had an impact).

In north Queensland Northern Quolls appear to be on the increase, as do Pseudechis australis, P. porphyriacus and Varanus panoptes. These are in places that have had Toads since 1940 (only 5 yrs after the initial release at Gordonvale). However you cannot say conclusively that these sp have adjusted/adapted to the presence of Rhinella around Mareeba.....but it sure appears that way.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[SteveNT]

your mate will have a dead Keelback soon enough the processing of the toad toxins have an extremely high metabolic cost and out weigh the benefits for the snake...so while they can eat them they cannot survive indefinitely on them

There are many stories of keelbacks eating 1 or 2 toads successfully but then dying after eating number 3 or 4. And their immunity probably developed in Gondwanan times when Oz and South America were joined and toads were part of the biota. Bufotoxins are a complex chemical mix and it will take many millions of years for our native fauna to adapt to it.

Some animals appear to be learning not to eat them (frillnecks, v. mertensii, blue winged kookaburra, etc) although the process is not clear. The northern quolls now only survive on remote islands where they have been relocated. So for whoever said they have not caused any extinctions they have caused a massive local extinction across the whole of the Top End NT. Many other small carniverous or omniverous marsupials have gone into major decline across the Top End and while we cant prove it is due to the toads they are certainly a major contributor.

In Darwin we have an eradication program which, while labour intensive, has had significant results and we are seeing several species bounce back locally. Every toad you kill potentially saves one of our native animals. Go forth and destroy all the toads you can.

 

[SteveNT]

One thing you may find interesting is the attitude of some of the Indigenous people I work with. They see the damage they cause so the toads are referred to as "rubbish frogs" ha ha.

They are not always seen as 100% bad. It is noted that their reduction in goanna numbers has resulted in more turtle eggs being available along the coast. Also if your house has a cockroach infestation 2 or 3 toads will clear the house in a few days. (Then they are destroyed.)

 

[eipper]

See my replies in bold....

There are many stories of keelbacks eating 1 or 2 toads successfully but then dying after eating number 3 or 4. And their immunity probably developed in Gondwanan times when Oz and South America were joined and toads were part of the biota. Bufotoxins are a complex chemical mix and it will take many millions of years for our native fauna to adapt to it.

This is incorrect. Tropidonophis appear to have entered Australia post the gondwanan separation event. They radiated into Australia from South East Asia during a past ice age. There are no Tropidonophis found in Central or South America, they did not evolve with South American bufonids including Rhinella marina. It is thought that they have a resistance to bufonid toxins (not just Bufotoxin) that comes from an early ancestor that did live with early bufonids.

As for millions of years to adapt.....well I doubt that too. Possibly to ingest the toxin with any harm, but its been shown that species such as Magpies have learnt to flip and toad upside down and eat the inside out rather than eat the whole toad....this is an adaption that has take less than 60 years at absolute best.

Some animals appear to be learning not to eat them (frillnecks, v. mertensii, blue winged kookaburra, etc) although the process is not clear. The northern quolls now only survive on remote islands where they have been relocated. So for whoever said they have not caused any extinctions they have caused a massive local extinction across the whole of the Top End NT. Many other small carniverous or omniverous marsupials have gone into major decline across the Top End and while we cant prove it is due to the toads they are certainly a major contributor.

Two things here Localised extinction and extinction are two different things. I seriously doubt that toads are responsible for any complete extinction, however I am sure they have contributed to localized decline of certain species. My point is that you can say they have been a contributing factor but not "the" factor.
As for specifically, Northern Quolls see my post above...4 Quolls in 20 minutes in an area that has had toads since 1940. They are there and they must be doing reasonably well, I hope that the same will be said for the other species in the Top End that have been hit hard but I suppose we will have a better idea in 70 years.

In Darwin we have an eradication program which, while labour intensive, has had significant results and we are seeing several species bounce back locally. Every toad you kill potentially saves one of our native animals. Go forth and destroy all the toads you can.

Excellent news, is there a training component provided to the "killers" to be able to id metamorph Uperoleia and Crinia as these can look superficially similar?

Cheers,
Scott Eipper

 

[Renenet]

Also if your house has a cockroach infestation 2 or 3 toads will clear the house in a few days. (Then they are destroyed.)

Interesting. I might have to try that next summer. (Being very careful not to step on the toads when I get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.)

In Darwin we have an eradication program which, while labour intensive, has had significant results and we are seeing several species bounce back locally. Every toad you kill potentially saves one of our native animals. Go forth and destroy all the toads you can.

What method(s) do they use to euthanase toads, Steve? I recently heard that the fridge then freezer method might not be as humane as believed, but I have not had a chance to look into it.

 

[TheChondroCharm]

So goats and rabbits are native?

I stand corrected. Wasn't thinking when I listed prey.

 

[Cazza]

My friend has seen a few in her backyard when she was living in Brisbane and they were eating her bird's food, they are quite annoying and yes they are an introduced species. They originally came to get rid of a species of beetle that were destroying Queensland's Sugarcane crops. Unfortunately the plan backfired and the toads started eating the sugarcane themselves:shock:. They are now targeting native Australian wildlife and poisoning them (because animals do often eat them). And I would hate this to be the fate of any of my pets .

 

[Brownbird]

At risk of flogging this dead horse.....

How is a smack under the chin with a bat inhumane? It may sound a bit icky to more sensitive types, but it results in virtualy instant death.

 

[eipper]

I have read and heard alot about these toads. My friend has seen a few in her backyard when she was living in Brisbane and they were eating her bird's food, they are quite annoying and yes they are an introduced species. They originally came to get rid of a species of beetle that were destroying Queensland's Sugarcane crops. Unfortunately the plan backfired and the toads started eating the sugarcane themselves:shock:. They are now targeting native Australian wildlife and poisoning them (because animals do often eat them). And I would hate this to be the fate of any of my pets . I know quite a bit about these since I researched them last year.

Your investigative skills are sorely lacking if you believe the "information" you have provided above

 

[mikey_mike]

This mentality that: "Oh well, killing one won't solve the problem." is basically giving up.

Even if it doesn't make a difference, you're still preventing it from breeding in future.

Until we have a proper scientific eradication program, I'd be killing every one I see.

Eradication need not be the only goal. harm minimisation is worthwhile - ie preventing toad densities from getting to the point where they wipe out all of the native predators. Controlling toad populations, even realising that elimination is unrealistic is worthwhile - it gives natives a chance to adapt.

I agree we should be humane wherever possible, but in my opinion a stable ecosystem, in which most of the constituents are reasonably well adapted to each other is also the ecosysytem with less overall suffering. Hence "animal lovers" - that term makes me feel mildly nauseous - should be advocates of humane feral animal control.

 

[mikey_mike]

[What method(s) do they use to euthanase toads, Steve? I recently heard that the fridge then freezer method might not be as humane as believed, but I have not had a chance to look into it.[/QUOTE]

Toad busters use CO2 to kill them.
When placing toads in the freezer wrap them up in something so they don't come into direct contact with freezing surfaces - which might cause painful burns.

 

[SteveNT]

See my replies in bold....



Excellent news, is there a training component provided to the "killers" to be able to id metamorph Uperoleia and Crinia as these can look superficially similar?

Cheers,
Scott Eipper

Mannual collection is by volunteers who do do recieve training. They target adult toads (which you wont mistake a uperolia for anyway.) There are collection bins distributed through the suburbs, the toads are collected regularly and euthenaised. Most work is now concentrating on tadpole traps using bufotoxin bait around local watercourses. It is proving very effective.

Thanks for the info on the keelbacks. I was not aware of their ancestry. My comments re adaptiaton were to the bufotoxins and that wont happen in a hurry. Crows and intermediate herons have been seen to do the flip and gut manouver here and by the number of hollowed out upside down toads along the creek lines they are getting pretty good at it.

I didn't say they were extinct, I clearly said "massive local extinction". Dwarf freshwater crocodiles have completely gone from several sandstone escarpments in the Top End. I surveyed several (usually very busy) breeding areas last Dry and there is no sign at all of any breeding activity or of the crocs themselves. In those creeks spangled and sooty grunters have also disappeared (they eat the toad eggs) and been replaced by much smaller rainbowfish as the dominant fish species. So the little freshies not only copped it from direct ingestion of the toads, their primary food supply was taken out also.

It would be nice if quolls come back in 70 years but there are none (nil/ nix/ zero) being observed by researchers, countrymen or others across the Top End of the NT. This is not Qld. By all appearances it is only reintroduction from the island populations that can get them re-established and then only when something can be done about the toads.

cheers
Steve

 

[eipper]

re the Quolls....but those appearances are biased at present without baseline data. This my point, while QLD is different to the NT it is a better model than pure theory. West of the Divide, parts of North Queensland are quite similar to parts of the Top End. I would be not so quick to conclude that it will be that different.

re the toad id..I said metamorph not adult...

Re Localised extinction.... Where was this data published?

Cheers,
Scott

 

[SteveNT]

re the Quolls....but those appearances are biased at present without baseline data. This my point, while QLD is different to the NT it is a better model than pure theory. West of the Divide, parts of North Queensland are quite similar to parts of the Top End. I would be not so quick to conclude that it will be that different.

re the toad id..I said metamorph not adult...

Re Localised extinction.... Where was this data published?

Cheers,
Scott

I would say that 50,000 years of observation by the Indigenous people of the Top End is pretty good info on where the quolls were and where they now are not.

Re Localised extinction, are you referring to the dwarf freshies? If so I am unaware of any data having being published. That information is the result of my own regular personal observations over the past 35 years and is backed up by the people of Arnhem Land, western Top End and the Western Gulf country. I hope you are not one of those people who believes nothing unless it is written up by a Phd holder. Some of the greatest garbage I have ever read has come from professors. Take a look at David Bowmans "research" sometime.

 

[eipper]

Steve,

I was at Lawn Hill in 2012, there was a good population of johnstoni there living with toads. I am not saying they are in the same density as what they were pre toad, but I am not sure either.

At risk of offence, 50, 000 years of data that cannot be ascertained to be fact. While I am sure there is information to be told and anecdotes to be utilized/interpreted I would very careful in over emphasizing the importance of the data. How can you be sure that changes to fire regimes or climate change has not caused the population shift?

I don't take the word of anyone as a sole basis for an argument, PHD holder, student, elder, naturalist or otherwise. I will listen and read and formulate my own opinion based from the data I receive and the knowledge I have acquired, as I am sure you would do the same.

To make a claim that a species is locally extinct is easy. To prove why its locally extinct is a whole different ball game.

 

[saratoga]

re the Quolls....but those appearances are biased at present without baseline data.

Scott, do you know of any good baseline data for Qld before the introduction of the toads?

Sure many species have recovered; but we will never know of the ones that haven't without that baseline data..

Of course having baseline data is the preferred situation to be in but collecting that takes years and years, not just a season or so, and now the toads have become well entrenched in the Top End it's way too late. There is I believe some good data from long term studies by Tom Madsen and Rick Shine at Fogg Dam but I'm not aware of too much else for the Top End.

There is a wealth of knowledge still held by bush aboriginals and several long term naturalists in the Top End – people who spend the majority of their time in the field – and whilst the "scientific" world will always refer to this as anecdotal evidence, I think there needs to be significant weight given to their observations.