Carpet bite whows VDK as tiger

[longqi]

This is really interesting stuff

I wonder if thats part of the reason for so many fatalities after hospitalization in 3rd world countries??
Not only different types of venom but false positive readings

 

[Fuscus]

Tiger seems to be the fall back response for the VDK, that's the result I returned from a Marsh.
And despite all the horror stories that get banded around by internet experts, Australian emergency treatment of snake bites is very good, how else can we achieve such a low fatality rate? If you check in to emergency with a snake bite there will be, initially six sets of eyes, on you. Should a single doctor attempt to do something silly (think English-born or where you don't get many snakes) they get immediately slapped down. Even the most placid nurse will, on sight of a medical misadventure become ( as Tim has so elegantly put it ):

a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

I am speaking from experience of both snake bite and nurses

 

[-Peter]

I said well in excess of three the number I remember is five. I would have to check though.. Memories can't be trusted. I would call that ludicrous.

again, without knowing what the "symptoms" were the "ludicrous" statement is without merit.

This is really interesting stuff

I wonder if thats part of the reason for so many fatalities after hospitalization in 3rd world countries??
Not only different types of venom but false positive readings

I dont know if VDKs are available outside Australia. The reason there are so many fatalities is because there is no antivenom available to the majority of snakebite victims, they use folk remedies or die from secondary symptoms.

 

[Magpie]

Apparently Tiger anti-venom works on sea-snakes too.
I thought sea-snake bites were very rare but we've had two in Yeppoon in the last few months.

 

[HerpMad]

I've been told of situations where patients who are administered anti-venom go into anaphalxis because
the AV is cultivated in horses and a lot of people are allergic to horses on a cellular level?
Is there any truth to this?

Shane.

 

[Darlyn]

I've been told of situations where patients who are administered anti-venom go into anaphalxis because
the AV is cultivated in horses and a lot of people are allergic to horses on a cellular level?
Is there any truth to this?

Shane.

Good god! Bitten by a snake and killed by a horse. Seems pretty unfair

 

[moosenoose]

Right, thats it! No more second guessing or risks on faulty VDK results. I hear rum works well

 

[HerpMad]

Right, thats it! No more second guessing or risks on faulty VDK results. I hear rum works well

Might aswell cut the bite amd suck ou the venom too

 

[longqi]

I dont know if VDKs are available outside Australia. The reason there are so many fatalities is because there is no antivenom available to the majority of snakebite victims, they use folk remedies or die from secondary symptoms.

I understand that very well
But I was referring directly to the number of snake bite deaths after hospitilization
Some can be put down to incorrect anti venine being used but the percentage is uncomfortably high

Maggie they were lucky to survive then
surfer died in 20 minutes here recently from sea snake tag

they use tiger to treat banded kraits which we consider top of the danger list here

 

[Tsubakai]

I've been told of situations where patients who are administered anti-venom go into anaphalxis because
the AV is cultivated in horses and a lot of people are allergic to horses on a cellular level?
Is there any truth to this?

Shane.

Any exposure to foreign protein can trigger an immune response to that protein. This can result in various effects but the most catastrophic is anaphylaxis on subsequent exposure to that same protein. As you've pointed out, antivenom is derived from horse serum so this fits the category of foreign protein.

Allergic at 'a cellular level' is not, strictly speaking, accurate as anaphylaxis is an immunologic response and not something you are inherently born with.

 

[HerpMad]

Any exposure to foreign protein can trigger an immune response to that protein. This can result in various effects but the most catastrophic is anaphylaxis on subsequent exposure to that same protein. As you've pointed out, antivenom is derived from horse serum so this fits the category of foreign protein.

Allergic at 'a cellular level' is not, strictly speaking, accurate as anaphylaxis is an immunologic response and not something you are inherently born with.

Ahhhh..
Thanks mate, clears some things up for me

Cheers.

 

[1Duddley]

When the venom detection kit's instructions are followed precisely no python will show up as a venomous snake.
When you present at hospital the Doctor should not be able to see any teeth marks because the area should be covered by your compression bandage. Even if there was no bandage it is a fanciful thought that a Doctor is going to be able to distinguish between the bite marks of a python as opposed to a venomous snake. Most snake catchers could not!
Venom is able to be detected in the urine for a short period of time, the coagulant times are used as an indicator of envimation, except of course for death adders. ( because it is pure neurotoxin )
If a patient needs anti venom this will be administered until such time that all symptoms of envenomation in the patient are stabilised. The number of ampules needed depends on the amount of venom administered. A large captive snake will more often than not deliver more venom than a thin wild snake. Because of this the recommended number of ampules as per Struan and Sutherland is usually less than is needed in reality. The most recent protocol for Eastern Brown ( from South Eastern Queensland ) envenomation is to begin with 17 ampules.
Antivenom can have side effects - which are easily treated with steroids and other drugs. History has shown that many keepers of venomous snakes apply their bandage too late, as they wait to see if it's a dry bite. They then apply their bandage too loose, allowing the venom to travel further through the lymphatic system than is preferable. Just a glance at photos readily displayed on this site to all and sundry of venomous snakes being shown on hands, faces and around necks proves the point that the majority of venomous snake owners and snake catchers do so for the wrong reasons. These are beautiful animals, and not meant to be a crutch for what ever inadequacy or short fall their owner might have.
These comments are not put together by random searches of the internet or listening to the stories of other keepers. Rather they are from personal experiences of envinamation events, many of which have been documented to become learning tools for others.

 

[Firepac]

Because of this the recommended number of ampules as per Struan and Sutherland is usually less than is needed in reality. The most recent protocol for Eastern Brown ( from South Eastern Queensland ) envenomation is to begin with 17 ampules.

Really? Not sure where you get your information from. Why would rural Queensland be so different? To quote from the Mackay Health Service District Emergency Department Workplace Instruction....

"Antivenom Doses

There is ongoing debate as to the ideal starting dose. Current indications suggest that starting doses are les the we previously thought - See Appendix A below for current opinion/consensus on starting doses......

Anivenom is stored in the Emergency Department. Normal stock holding: Taipan (2), Brown Snake (6), Death Adder (2), Polyvalent (4), Sea Snake (2), Black Snake (2).

.
.
.
.
Appendix A - Initial antivenom starting dose.

Brown Snake - 2 vials Brown or 1 vial Polyvalent
Tiger Snake, Copperheads, Rough Scaled - 2 vials Tiger or 1 vial Polyvalent
Mulga, Collett's, Spotted Black - 1 vial Black or 1 vial Polyvalent
Red Bellied Black - 1 vial Tiger or 1 vial Polyvalent
Death Adders - 1 vial Death Adder or 1 vial Polyvalent
Taipans - 2 vials Taipan or 1 vial Polyvalent
Sea Snakes - 2 vials Sea Snake or 1 vial Polyvalent "

They only keep 6 vials on hand how can they start with 17!!!


And to quote from CSL from this link CSL Antivenom Handbook - Brown Snake Antivenom ....

"For brown snake bites, the majority of patients will not need antivenom. However, if there is any evidence of either coagulopathy or kidney damage, antivenom is required. If systemic symptoms and coagulopathy are only mild (say INR >1.5 but <2.0), then an initial dose of 2 vials of CSL Brown Snake Antivenom may be sufficient. If, however, there is major coagulopathy, commence with 4 vials of antivenom and expect to give 2 to 6 more vials over the next few hours, titrated against coagulation results. Wait 3 hours before definitive retesting of coagulation to determine if more antivenom is required."

Love to know where you get you 'information' as in my opinion there is NO way in the world 17 vials as a starting dose is the current protocol.

 

[eipper]

There are a number of errors in duddley's post.

For starters death adders are not purely neurotoxic, it has been shown that some have a significant myotoxin present.

On initial administration.... They tend to follow either avru reccomendations or white et al 2001.

Antivenom is usually administered in combination with other supportive drugs including some of which reduce or proactively medicate against allergic reactions.

Vdk tests can show false positives, they are quite difficult to administer correctly and make sure the wells present light up in the correct order. If the person administering the test gets side tracked or otherwise an incorrect reading can be obtained. Coag tests on blood are also conducted as well to ascertain whether envenomation has occurred.

Cheers
Scott


.

 

[Tsubakai]

Death adders can also have a mild procoagulant venom effect as well - its usually not clinically significant but can confuse people who see it and think it must be a different as 'death adders are only neurotoxic'

The current starting dose of antivenom for brown snake is contentious and the source of debate by clinicians and researchers. In the past it was common in some areas to start with up to 10 ampoules although most people have much more conservative starting doses now. I would expect to start with 4 and assess response before deciding on further doses.

 

[baxtor]

When the venom detection kit's instructions are followed precisely no python will show up as a venomous snake.
When you present at hospital the Doctor should not be able to see any teeth marks because the area should be covered by your compression bandage. Even if there was no bandage it is a fanciful thought that a Doctor is going to be able to distinguish between the bite marks of a python as opposed to a venomous snake. Most snake catchers could not!
Venom is able to be detected in the urine for a short period of time, the coagulant times are used as an indicator of envimation, except of course for death adders. ( because it is pure neurotoxin )
If a patient needs anti venom this will be administered until such time that all symptoms of envenomation in the patient are stabilised. The number of ampules needed depends on the amount of venom administered. A large captive snake will more often than not deliver more venom than a thin wild snake. Because of this the recommended number of ampules as per Struan and Sutherland is usually less than is needed in reality. The most recent protocol for Eastern Brown ( from South Eastern Queensland ) envenomation is to begin with 17 ampules.
Antivenom can have side effects - which are easily treated with steroids and other drugs. History has shown that many keepers of venomous snakes apply their bandage too late, as they wait to see if it's a dry bite. They then apply their bandage too loose, allowing the venom to travel further through the lymphatic system than is preferable. Just a glance at photos readily displayed on this site to all and sundry of venomous snakes being shown on hands, faces and around necks proves the point that the majority of venomous snake owners and snake catchers do so for the wrong reasons. These are beautiful animals, and not meant to be a crutch for what ever inadequacy or short fall their owner might have.
These comments are not put together by random searches of the internet or listening to the stories of other keepers. Rather they are from personal experiences of envinamation events, many of which have been documented to become learning tools for others.

Wow!! If there was a demand out there for unsupported generalizations, you would have the market sewn up tight duddley.