Culling off weak reptiles?

[Snowman]

Some people just shouldnt breed... Oh they shouldnt breed snakes either!

 

[S&M Morelia]

Yes I do but I do it humanely using leathabarb (leathal injection). Please dont flame me as most professional breeders I know do the same. What do you think happens to all the sibs that get produced from jags? Its just the reality of things. You just dont hear of it.

Not going to flame, just want to inform. But seeing as you are an Animal Technician you know how Lethabarb works etc. so I have a few questions for you and a bit of a run down about what I know of lethabarb and it's use with reptiles.
As for your mention about the Sibs to jags, ask Colin how many he's culled.

Anyways, here goes...

I'm curious as to how you euthanise your animals with lethabarb.
Do you inject intravenously?
Do you inject subcaudal? If so, lethabarb generally won't work as designed and will cause a slow painful death, imo.
Do you inject into a cavity? eg Lungs, Stomach, intestines etc?
Or do you try and find the heart and inject it directly?


In my opinion, you are far better off using a hammer onto the animals head.


As most of you will know that a snake's metobolism is quite slow.
Their breathing is quite infrequent and their heart rate is quite small in BPM.


So for lethabarb to work effectively, it is commonly injected intravenously (directly into the blood stream via a vein) in mammals. So when it comes to reptiles, how do you find a vein? You pretty much can't. So you need to find another method of injecting.

So the next best method of injecting lethabarb is to be injected directly into the heart.
So to find it, you will have to insert the needle into the body of the animal, hoping to get the heart, let go of the needle and wait for a heart beat. The heart beat will then actually shake the needle, letting you know you're in the right place and you can then inject the lethabarb.
Imagine trying to do this on a young animal? The heart wouldn't be big enough or strong enough to shake the needle.


Then comes cavity injections. If you were to be injecting the lethabarb into a caviuty such as the lungs, stomach, intestines etc, (as said previously, for lethabarb to work it has to be in the blood stream)it can take up quite a while for the injection to reach the heart and be fatal through absorbtion into the bloodstream.


So personally if I was in the position to "cull" animals I would definitely not use lethabarb. There are other methods that would work much quicker (aka better) than a lethal injection.

 

[richardsc]

Yes I do but I do it humanely using leathabarb (leathal injection). Please dont flame me as most professional breeders I know do the same. What do you think happens to all the sibs that get produced from jags? Its just the reality of things. You just dont hear of it.

im not going to flame you mate,and i know its common with alot of folk,and i admire your honesty about it,i guess if it is done humanely,not so cruel,i just dont think i could stomach doing that,but thats just me personally though,i couldnt breed stuff just to keep the pretty ones and cull the others

 

[Snowman]

Not going to flame, just want to inform. But seeing as you are an Animal Technician you know how Lethabarb works etc. so I have a few questions for you and a bit of a run down about what I know of lethabarb and it's use with reptiles.
As for your mention about the Sibs to jags, ask Colin how many he's culled.

Anyways, here goes...

I'm curious as to how you euthanise your animals with lethabarb.
Do you inject intravenously?
Do you inject subcaudal? If so, lethabarb generally won't work as designed and will cause a slow painful death, imo.
Do you inject into a cavity? eg Lungs, Stomach, intestines etc?
Or do you try and find the heart and inject it directly?


In my opinion, you are far better off using a hammer onto the animals head.


As most of you will know that a snake's metobolism is quite slow.
Their breathing is quite infrequent and their heart rate is quite small in BPM.


So for lethabarb to work effectively, it is commonly injected intravenously (directly into the blood stream via a vein) in mammals. So when it comes to reptiles, how do you find a vein? You pretty much can't. So you need to find another method of injecting.

So the next best method of injecting lethabarb is to be injected directly into the heart.
So to find it, you will have to insert the needle into the body of the animal, hoping to get the heart, let go of the needle and wait for a heart beat. The heart beat will then actually shake the needle, letting you know you're in the right place and you can then inject the lethabarb.
Imagine trying to do this on a young animal? The heart wouldn't be big enough or strong enough to shake the needle.


Then comes cavity injections. If you were to be injecting the lethabarb into a caviuty such as the lungs, stomach, intestines etc, (as said previously, for lethabarb to work it has to be in the blood stream)it can take up quite a while for the injection to reach the heart and be fatal through absorbtion into the bloodstream.


So personally if I was in the position to "cull" animals I would definitely not use lethabarb. There are other methods that would work much quicker (aka better) than a lethal injection.

Very interesting post. Just goes to show how a little bit of knowledge (Turtle) can be a dangerous thing. Poor little snakes.... "duhh... well it worked well with primates...."

 

[junglepython2]

Is freezing with prior cooling still considered humane? Or is that out of favour now? I have a couple that need to meet there maker and i'm thinking the hammer is the most humane of the lot.

 

[richardsc]

Is freezing with prior cooling still considered humane? Or is that out of favour now? I have a couple that need to meet there maker and i'm thinking the hammer is the most humane of the lot.

thats actually a great question,what are humane ways

not sure on the hammer,could easily miss the target area

 

[Scleropages]

Wow killing sibs because you breed Jags is kinda low.

 

[turtle]

I just think it's great to talk about this debate as it's pretty interesting.
If you want to talk about lethabarb, I do inject directly into the heart. I never miss. Drawing back, indicates you are in.
I don't own any jags as i cant stand them so personally I don't cull any sibs. A few well known breeders I know do, however I do cull. I personally don't like the hammer method as it's messy.

 

[miss_mosher]

Most of our reptiles were given to us because they were on the verge of dying from starvation or ill in general. Our coastal carpet was the size of a hatchling at two years old - with time and patience it has become an eating machine that breeders around here keep trying to buy off is, which will never happen. Also our psycho spotted I still psycho and a weak spotted became a loved and healthy favourite. Our weak blue tongue is still kicking and it's brother is a monster.

In the end, if someone has the time and love

Didn't get to finish

If someone has the time and patience to look after a disadvantaged animal, then good on them. I don't mind culling (humanely and fairly) otherwise it will become the problem we see in pounds and the RSPCA.

However, people killing off their animals because they don't have certain traits is ridiculous. Isn't that what happened in WWII after all? Haha sorry, I went there

 

[Jeffa]

Honest question. What would be the average euth of a clutch of pures compared to jags? I seem to only see about a max of 10 jags as opposed to around 25 (pure coastals or jungles) Does this mean that they generally produce a fewer clutch? There are more problems during incubation as they are a imperior breed? or that the majority are killed off because they have a high percentage of neuro or are ugly snakes that cannot be sold for alot of money? Again, honest question. I am sure that there are larger clutch sizes but seem always smaller to say a pure.
Cheers

 

[Oldoneyoung]

This is a very interesting topic and I have enjoyed reading. A couple of things I wanted to put forward is as follows. My understanding is that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is no longer considered to be humane by animal welfare organisations, at least not in NSW. As the process actually takes a lot longer then it was once thought and is painful for the reptile in question.

The advice now given for animal rescuers/carers that have to euthanise reptiles is to either do so by by crushing it's skull with a hammer or some heavy blunt object (messy and unpleasant for the person doing so, but generally humane for the animal if done right) or if it's practical to take the the animal to a vet.
The vet will usually in my experience then use lethabarb for the task. While I have trained as a lethalist technician I have not myself euthanised a reptile by this means. When I've assisted the vet to do it the animals have always died very quickly as opposed to what S&MMorelia has suggested above. However with the unique metabolic systems of reptiles I can understand the concern. Lethabarb is not perfect and being a very caustic material sometimes animals can react badly to the drug before it ceases brain function. It absolutely stands to reason that a body that operates at a slower rate would drag out the process and the animal suffer before it's brain shuts down.

Above Turtle has stated that he injects into the heart and never misses. While I don't intend to sound critical and I am enjoying this debate on it's intellectual merits, I have difficulty believing that anybody could consistantly conduct heart shots and not miss. I only occasionally have to euthanise with Lethabarb and have only maybe put down a hundred or so mammals and birds thus myself. However I work closely with people who have euth'd animals in the thousands and a heart shot is usually the last option unless the animal is already sedated. The heart can be very difficult to get in mammals. I would think it even harder in reptiles given the size differences and occasional difficulty piercing the scales.

On the issue of culling weaker offspring I can fully understand how it sounds very sad to people who are used to wanting to save everything. As an animal lover I often feel the same. However I have learned to become more objective and sometimes we do more harm with misinformed compassion then otherwise. Survival of the fittest is the rule in nature, when we interfere with that rule by keeping animals alive that would otherwise die in the wild we allow for indiscrimnate breeding to occur. Which can cause animals to potentially be produced with defects that can actually cause suffering to the animal unbeknownst to the outside observer and then pass on those traits to future generations. My veiws on death being some terrible thing may have changed in recent years but I am still totally against animal suffering. As sad or clinical as it may sound, strictly controlled breeding is I think the best option.

 

[chilli]

Some people just shouldnt breed... Oh they shouldnt breed snakes either!

ironically, there never would have been an OP

 

[S&M Morelia]

Fair enough Oldoneyoung. I was just posting from my experience.
Can you please post as to how the vet euthinaised the reptiles? As in location/type of injection?

Cheers.
Shaun.

 

[Oldoneyoung]

No worries. The last reptile I took to to vet to be euth'd was a large bluetongue which had been chomped on by a large dog. The attack had crushed and split open the lower half of it's body. I think it was a heart shot from memory. It was injected through the underside of the reptile. The vet had trouble getting through the scale at first, particularly as the damage to bluetongue meant that the pressure from the needle on the scales was enough to force the internal organs to shift around changing the shape of the subject lizard. However once she got through the scale she found the heart with relative ease and like with most animals death was almost instantaneous. I have since euth'd other reptiles using the flat side of a hatchet. While it is very effective it can be very difficult for a person to hit the desired area. Anybody with a weak stomach is likely to hesitate and may miss entirely. Unfortunately there does not appear to be a foolproof system for euthanising reptiles. Not that I've heard of anyway.

 

[phantomreptiles]

Like at "oldoneyoung" (on tapatalk so don't have that option)

In regards to lethabarb, I do not believe it should be given without first using an anesthetic such as Isoflurane, unless you can of course obtain intravenous access. Using Iso can be difficult with reptiles, pythons especially. So although the hammer option is distasteful I believe it to be the most humane. And i mean this option only for pythons. This is just my opinion combined with the 16years experience of euthanizing all types of animals.

I also find it hard to believe that someone could find the heart 100% of the time with one shot....

Obviously the above is OT, but I agree with culling the weak & sick, (exactly as we do with our rats), culling because of pattern I don't personally agree with, but that's what dog breeders do (eg white boxer pups), and I am sure anyone that has ever bred anything has culled. It's about bettering the breed to produce the the healthiest, fittest and most desirable. (to name a few traits)
At the end of the day, it happens, it will always happen and as long it is humane I am ok with it.

 

[Oldoneyoung]

Good example "phantomreptiles" Dog breeders have beening culling unwanted puppies for thousands of years. It has probably played a major role in why different dog breeds are so well defined by type. (or were until recent years) For instance Germany is well known for having some of the finest bred dogs alive and culling is very much a common practice there. Unfortunately the down side of human controlled breeding is that there are plenty of ignorant and foolish people in the world and that means that sometimes things go very badly for the animals.

(My next comment may seem off topic but I'm addressing an issue that was brought up further back in the thread)

While on most issues I strive to be objective and tend to sit firmly on the fence without taking sides. I will say to all those people who spout the idea "free to a good home" like it is the answer to all animal overpopulation problems. You really have no idea. Good homes are such a rare commodity compared to the massively overwhelming numbers of unwanted pets that have to be destroyed every year by the people who actually love animals enough that they are willing to get their hands dirty doing the jobs that are too "inhumane" for everyone else.
It is because of backyard breeders and puppy/kitten mills that produce animals purely to make an easy dollar and not take responsibilty for their animals that these destruction numbers are so high. Couple that with the fact that if you give away all these unwanted animals for free. You are then going to have a lot more of these animals now in the "care" of people who are not always willing to spend money to desex or build a secure yard which would otherwise prevent all these unwanted litters being conceived. Not to mention those same people are less likely to spend the money to feed, vacinate, treat for parasites or pay for veterinary expenses of these animals which were "free to a good home". Most Animal shelters and Rescue Organisations try to screen their potential buyers to work out whethor they should be sold pets. But unfortunately resources is always an issue and not everyone can be thoroughly investigated and of course there is always the sad fact thay some people lie. lol I just realised I starting venting a bit there. Oh well I'm okay with it.

 

[richardsc]

For instance Germany is well known for having some of the finest bred dogs alive and culling is very much a common practice

they tried to do it with humans to



it is an interesting thread though,amazingly hasnt gone super angsty,pros and cons both ways

 

[KaotikJezta]

Good example "phantomreptiles" Dog breeders have beening culling unwanted puppies for thousands of years. It has probably played a major role in why different dog breeds are so well defined by type. (or were until recent years) For instance Germany is well known for having some of the finest bred dogs alive and culling is very much a common practice there. Unfortunately the down side of human controlled breeding is that there are plenty of ignorant and foolish people in the world and that means that sometimes things go very badly for the animals.

(My next comment may seem off topic but I'm addressing an issue that was brought up further back in the thread)



While on most issues I strive to be objective and tend to sit firmly on the fence without taking sides. I will say to all those people who spout the idea "free to a good home" like it is the answer to all animal overpopulation problems. You really have no idea. Good homes are such a rare commodity compared to the massively overwhelming numbers of unwanted pets that have to be destroyed every year by the people who actually love animals enough that they are willing to get their hands dirty doing the jobs that are too "inhumane" for everyone else.
It is because of backyard breeders and puppy/kitten mills that produce animals purely to make an easy dollar and not take responsibilty for their animals that these destruction numbers are so high. Couple that with the fact that if you give away all these unwanted animals for free. You are then going to have a lot more of these animals now in the "care" of people who are not always willing to spend money to desex or build a secure yard which would otherwise prevent all these unwanted litters being conceived. Not to mention those same people are less likely to spend the money to feed, vacinate, treat for parasites or pay for veterinary expenses of these animals which were "free to a good home". Most Animal shelters and Rescue Organisations try to screen their potential buyers to work out whethor they should be sold pets. But unfortunately resources is always an issue and not everyone can be thoroughly investigated and of course there is always the sad fact thay some people lie. lol I just realised I starting venting a bit there. Oh well I'm okay with it.

Hmmm, a lot of shelters screening standards are so ridiculously high that even the best homes are refused animals.

 

[Tassie97]

wow... this opened my eyes, I could never ever hit an animal with a hammer!

 

[Oldoneyoung]

Hmmm, a lot of shelters screening standards are so ridiculously high that even the best homes are refused animals.

Well I can't accurately comment on that. My experience of shelter srceening standards is limited to the City where I work. However I'm sure there are people who have been gently turned away from our shelter that went on to say the same thing themselves.
It can be very difficult to know what the people will be like at looking after their pets. But shelters usually look at things that are a bit more obvious such as how secure their yard is, what other animals they keep and what sort of pet they want to adopt, will that pet be able to be kept in that yard, with those other animals, will it suit their lifestyle etc.
Sometimes they think an animal is going to a great home with great people just to have it returned a couple of days later with some of the lamest excuses imaginable. (It poops more then I thought, it jumps up on me, it won't learn any tricks, it won't come when I call it..the list goes on an on) The people who work at shelters genuinely want to rehome as many animals as possible. so much so that more often then not they will take that little bit of risk that the animal may not be going into the most perfect situation. But they are continually let down by these people in whom they have shown trust. This and countless others reasons like it is exactly why people in my profession become so cynical.