Do you believe in macroevolution?

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

Does anybody have any unusual views regarding evolution? Does anybody not believe in sexual selection? Or perhaps doesn't accept sexual selection as being part of natural selection, as Darwin didn't? Anybody not believe in kin selection? Anybody believe in group selection? Anything else anybody want's to argue about that's related to evolution?

come on Brendan people would much rather be bashing God and the Bible with absolutely no knowledge of either...If you are going to try to debunk something , at least know what it is first. The slaughter of millions was clearly documented in the Bible but it was moreso Joshua than Moses, and yes it was a command from God because they were an evil race and needed to be wiped out for the chosen people to live in peace....this is a real dumbed down explanation and sounds real nasty but it is too complicated to go into here.

 

[D3pro]

Just in on Facebook:

Trololol

 

[Wrightpython]

Again, this is turning into people totally and abjectly ignorant of the subject bashing the bible. The two bolded statements above are rubbish, and cannot be substantiated.

I understand people wanna bring in the bible because that's a source for the motivating principles behind creationism. But why not one-up those creationists by handling the primary sources accurately?

If they didnt leave out parts that were not to their liking what about the book of mary madeline after all she was jesus wife so she would have known him the best, or are you saying a 30 year old Jewish man wasnt married 2000 years ago give me a break, and it is not stated in the bible that moses went from village to village slaughtering every living human and animal until finally the midians fled. This is documented fact the bible only states 3000 men, but midian history books but the figures in the tens of thousands and include men women children and there animals.Now thats an actual documented fact not a fable cooked up over many years to ease the toll. And all the while he is shouting GOD told me to do it.

 

[littlemay]

I’m just about to finish up a five year honours degree in ancient Greek, Near Eastern and biblical history; i can read and have read biblical passages in Greek, Hebrew and, on occasion, Latin. While I am in no way an expert, I have a pretty good idea about these things and would just like to relay what has been taught to me on the topic. I’m not going to bother referencing anything at the moment because I’m buggered and it’s getting late, so please forgive me this academic no no.

1. To claim that the bible is our ‘oldest documented source of history' is beyond ludicrous. Ancient societies did actually exist before the rise of Christianity, and yes, these societies did produce their own documented histories! Take Thucydides ‘History of the Peloponnesian War’ for example, written in the fifth century BC - well before the NT was even conceived. The Hebrew bible is a whole other can of worms which I’m not going to bother with here, however what people tend to forget is that ‘documented history’ does not necessarily always take the form or be on a subject that we imagine it would. Literate societies did exist before and outside of the jewish middle east, and I think such evidence is grossly under appreciated (mind you, I’m the first to admit I’m not particularly well versed in this area).

2. The bible does have historical merit. To claim that the Hebrew bible and NT are complete works of fiction is just as bad as claiming that everything the books detail is 100% fact. Events in the bible have indeed been found to have a historical basis, and no, I am not talking about that ‘they found a roman chariot wheel in the red sea so therefore the exodus is true’ crock. Take for example the famous episode of 2 Maccabees, where Heliodorus, the finance minister of Antiochus IV (known by most as a persecuter of the Jews), is driven away by a fantastic golden rider as he is attempting to rob the temple of Jerusalem. While there is clear religious colouring here, the newly discovered Heliodorus stele appears to confirm that at this period in time Heliodorus was actually sent by the Seleukid King to Jerusalem in order to requisition funds from the sanctuary. Just because an account is heavily biased, does not necessarily mean it is completely historically inaccurate, or invaluable.

I know this has absolutely nothing to do with macroevolution; however it really irritates me when people throw around such incredible statements so easily. But anyway, i just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, don't want to derail this very interesting discussion any more than it already has been.

P.S., Anyone thinking of learning hebrew, latin or greek should absolutely do it, the subtlety and magnitude of translational differences will blow your mind…

 

[snakerelocation]

I know what laminin is...and i have no doubt of the intent you posted it with. I know evangelical spin doctors use this "example".

If you want to be taken seriously, say something serious ?

lmao, yep, that was serious, all you guys have done is bag creation, get back to the real point, and get off the God thing, I still dont see how what i said did anything to credit creation, just pointed out a fact on something i have studdied and are credited in- biol and chem. (RMIT melb).

 

[junglepython2]

Does anyone on here no what moses was really like, he slaughtered millions of men women and children in the name of god but thats not in the bible Actual documented history thats like saying the book about fairy tales is a documented history.

As far as I'm aware there isn't any hard evidence that Moses even exsisted, so how do you know he killed millions of people?

 

[snakerelocation]

come on Brendan people would much rather be bashing God and the Bible with absolutely no knowledge of either...If you are going to try to debunk something , at least know what it is first. The slaughter of millions was clearly documented in the Bible but it was moreso Joshua than Moses, and yes it was a command from God because they were an evil race and needed to be wiped out for the chosen people to live in peace....this is a real dumbed down explanation and sounds real nasty but it is too complicated to go into here.

Mate to be honest your wasteing your time, the problem we have is that there are so many here that believe scientific so called facts, it is so easy to get results in biology studies, very easy to manipulate cell structure, and that is the reasons why we are so behind in medical studies, one single micro cell makeup is more complexed than nasa space station, and even that they carnt get right.
Im over this. just full of bs

 

[waruikazi]

And BAM! Evolution disproved in one foul religious swoop! How you like them apples?

Mate to be honest your wasteing your time, the problem we have is that there are so many here that believe scientific so called facts, it is so easy to get results in biology studies, very easy to manipulate cell structure, and that is the reasons why we are so behind in medical studies, one single micro cell makeup is more complexed than nasa space station, and even that they carnt get right.
Im over this. just full of bs

 

[D3pro]

I know this has absolutely nothing to do with macroevolution; however it really irritates me when people throw around such incredible statements so easily . But anyway, i just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, don't want to derail this very interesting discussion any more than it already has been.

P.S., Anyone thinking of learning hebrew, latin or greek should absolutely do it, the subtlety and magnitude of translational differences will blow your mind…

I agree... and I am getting in ancient greek, it's mind blowing all right lol

 

[Wrightpython]

As far as I'm aware there isn't any hard evidence that Moses even exsisted, so how do you know he killed millions of people?

The bible says Moses existed and its actual documented fact remember and the time and place where he killed so called 3000 men was also documented elsewhere so when you put two and two together.

 

[Australis]

lmao, yep, that was serious, all you guys have done is bag creation, get back to the real point, and get off the God thing, I still dont see how what i said did anything to credit creation, just pointed out a fact on something i have studdied and are credited in- biol and chem. (RMIT melb).

Of all the biological structures you could of posted you just happen to post a picture of one that is well known to be used by creationist spin doctors for its straw clutching resemblance to a cross aka a crucifix aka an ancient torture device (do you now understand what an ancient torture device is, or do you need it written in crayon ??).

You posted it with no real context explaining how it fit into the discussion, so no, i didn't take it seriously. I took it for what it was the absolute lowest form of pseudo science.

Do yourself a favor, either educate yourself on the topic of discussion and post something meaningful or find a thread better suited to you, so you can run a long and remain blissfully ignorant.

Although the extreme ignorance you show with each post you contribute to this thread is somewhat humorous to me (i will probably laugh about it more as im sitting in a Biology lecture tomorrow :lol, especially when it seems you really do seem think you have put something intelligent into the mix, it is getting a little tired.

 

[Wrightpython]

Of all the biological structures you could of posted you just happen to post a picture of one that is well known to be used by creationist spin doctors for its straw clutching resemblance to a cross aka a crucifix aka an ancient torture device (do you now understand what an ancient torture device is, or do you need it written in crayon ??).

You posted it with no real context explaining how it fit into the discussion, so no, i didn't take it seriously. I took it for what it was the absolute lowest form of pseudo science.

Do yourself a favor, either educate yourself on the topic of discussion and post something meaningful or find a thread better suited to you, so you can run a long and remain blissfully ignorant.

Although the extreme ignorance you show with each post you contribute to this thread is somewhat humorous to me (i will probably laugh about it more as im sitting in a Biology lecture tomorrow :lol, especially when it seems you really do seem think you have put something intelligent into the mix, it is getting a little tired.

Nice one like your style

 

[slim6y]

Mate to be honest your wasteing your time, the problem we have is that there are so many here that believe scientific so called facts, it is so easy to get results in biology studies, very easy to manipulate cell structure, and that is the reasons why we are so behind in medical studies, one single micro cell makeup is more complexed than nasa space station, and even that they carnt get right.
Im over this. just full of bs

You do have something to bring to the table - don't take all this attitude from other members so personally. To them (and to me) they are fairly anti-religion for various (and personal) reasons I am sure. But the people who maybe religious or believe in creationism aren't usually the target of hatred (in fact quite the opposite). In the cases I see presented here most are merely questioning the facts.

Questioning the facts isn't to be taken personally (while some statements may appear personal in nature they're merely wanting facts).

I also know for a fact that myself, Australis, Waruikazi and a few others would change our belief system with scientific evidence from structured testing - for that is what we've based our beliefs on now. Not from brain washing as once suggested. Quite the opposite, from our OWN informed opinion.

So if you could please help out here and talk about why we're so far behind in medical studies, the reason you brought up laminin and any other evidence you have. It's absolutely fine to scientifically test a theory and be wrong. But it is not fine to not test and then convince everyone you're right (under current ways of thinking).

 

[snakerelocation]

You do have something to bring to the table - don't take all this attitude from other members so personally. To them (and to me) they are fairly anti-religion for various (and personal) reasons I am sure. But the people who maybe religious or believe in creationism aren't usually the target of hatred (in fact quite the opposite). In the cases I see presented here most are merely questioning the facts.

Questioning the facts isn't to be taken personally (while some statements may appear personal in nature they're merely wanting facts).

I also know for a fact that myself, Australis, Waruikazi and a few others would change our belief system with scientific evidence from structured testing - for that is what we've based our beliefs on now. Not from brain washing as once suggested. Quite the opposite, from our OWN informed opinion.

So if you could please help out here and talk about why we're so far behind in medical studies, the reason you brought up laminin and any other evidence you have. It's absolutely fine to scientifically test a theory and be wrong. But it is not fine to not test and then convince everyone you're right (under current ways of thinking).

you are right, but after doing 4 years of biol, you start to see the difference in facts, and questionable facts, i never once mentioned i was for creation against evolution, thats just the way you took it, i just find it hard to take that you can only believe in proven facts and nothing else, take metamorphis for example, we know it happens, but we carnt make it happen, and certainly not at the speed that it does happen, how can that be proved as evolution, evolution is a slow process, and sometimes even manipulated,(naturally or un naturally) yes it does happen, of course it has to, have a look at the cell structure in a person, we know how cells work and reproduce, we also know the rate at which a cell dies off too, can a single cell reproduce a human - hasnt happened yet, it it just co-incidence that all the creatures on this earth were all started off this way, with having the correct cell structure to work on, yes things do evolve, but as with all biology it can only be looked at through the eyes of evolution, not creation.

 

[Red-Ink]

So Umm... like... ummm who created the creator?

 

[snakerelocation]

So Umm... like... ummm who created the creator?

i guess the same wizzard that made every type of cell appear that we have on this earth today oh thats right that was an accident, or was it co incidence, or maybe the creator was what we know now as the "big bang"....
just merly stating facts, thats what you wanted.

 

[killimike]

If they didnt leave out parts that were not to their liking what about the book of mary madeline after all she was jesus wife so she would have known him the best, or are you saying a 30 year old Jewish man wasnt married 2000 years ago give me a break, and it is not stated in the bible that moses went from village to village slaughtering every living human and animal until finally the midians fled. This is documented fact the bible only states 3000 men, but midian history books but the figures in the tens of thousands and include men women children and there animals.Now thats an actual documented fact not a fable cooked up over many years to ease the toll. And all the while he is shouting GOD told me to do it.

Well, this is a touch more coherent than I expected.... but still rather lacking in evidence.

'The book of mary madeline'? I will confidently assert that no such thing exists, in any way shape or form. I know the genre of writings you probably actually mean, but you must never have read them or about them anywhere but The Da Vinci Code to think it has any hope of being authentic.

Since he who asserts bears the burden of proof, what is 'the midian history book'? And why do you believe those ignorant child sacrificing goat herders more than the other mob? Also, the Tanakh includes tales of many more people killed in the conquest of Canaan than just 3000, so you might wanna specify what you are referring to.

My point still stands, I think this is a great topic, but it's always better when people get the basic facts right, especially when accusing the other side of not doing so.

 

[slim6y]

you are right, but after doing 4 years of biol, you start to see the difference in facts, and questionable facts, i never once mentioned i was for creation against evolution, thats just the way you took it, i just find it hard to take that you can only believe in proven facts and nothing else, take metamorphis for example, we know it happens, but we carnt make it happen, and certainly not at the speed that it does happen, how can that be proved as evolution, evolution is a slow process, and sometimes even manipulated,(naturally or un naturally) yes it does happen, of course it has to, have a look at the cell structure in a person, we know how cells work and reproduce, we also know the rate at which a cell dies off too, can a single cell reproduce a human - hasnt happened yet, it it just co-incidence that all the creatures on this earth were all started off this way, with having the correct cell structure to work on, yes things do evolve, but as with all biology it can only be looked at through the eyes of evolution, not creation.

1: Are you for or against creationism as it stands in this thread? Please enlighten me to this one.

2. What do you mean by metamorphis - are we talking caterpillar to butterfly? Then what do you mean by we know it happens we can't make it happen? We know a star goes super nova but we can't make that happen either - With me, subtlety doesn't always work. You may need to be more specific and maybe even a little more in my face!

Is metamorphis (a butterfly) something that could prove or disprove evolution theory?

3: And finally - the coincidence of the cell - not sure (again) what you're really getting at here. Is it a coincidence all atoms contain neutrons, protons and they're made up of more intricate particles again?

Really sorry to sound like the person not knowing anything here... But if I give you a 'please explain' I'm not giving it to be a smart A - I'm asking it to learn...

 

[Red-Ink]

This started off as an interesting thread about evolution but as all evolution discussion goes, religion always creep into it somehow. Now people are citing the Judeo-christian diety.... there are other dieties you know each one with their own creation story. Each one with their own theological heroes, but I guess their a footnote in mankind's esotherical quest to explain themselves as they have the least followers or at least their followers are not the dominant ones who are in power.

 

[redlittlejim]

So I see a bunch of evolutionist want proof and wood be willing to change there minds if given evidence. So just exactly the same way you found evolution to be 'true' you may need to study where creationist get there evidence from... Whether it's the bible or other means. Unless your so closed minded that unless it was published by a guy with degrees In biology and science it doesn't count. And for creationist vice versa. There are plenty of scientist and bioligists who believe in a higher being or creator and also creationist who believe in evolution.